Can't give "Freddy the Freeloaders" the boot...

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  • kemnimtarkas
    kemnimtarkas Member Posts: 831 Arc User
    akanaro said:

    Players deliberately disconnecting is not the only issue with random (three man) dungeons. Bots are becoming a huge issue and this needs to be dealt with drastically. You'll often find a 2 man pre-made consisting of bots in the 3 man random dungeons doing nothing but walk behind the unlucky 3rd player who must do everything on his own. They are not very good bots either as they take obscure routes, won't mount where possible and basically take forever to eventually arrive at the final boss chamber. Obviously vote kicking is not even an option here.

    Cryptic needs to rethink and rework this whole system because as is it's just one big exploit.

    I ran into this on Cloak Tower once. Seemed really creepy - the other two "players" clearly were bots - they moved in tandem, tripping over each other, and never going ahead - if I stopped, they stopped, always behind me.

    When I'm running one of my high ilevel alts in an RQ dungeon I usually let the low il score player go first to earn the XP - so the bot behavior really stood out.
  • rhiannon#5795
    rhiannon#5795 Member Posts: 10 Arc User
    This really needs to be fixed because people exploiting it is getting worse. Just today it got me on both of my characters.

    I got on one and qued for random dungeon. I entered and one person ran to the bonfire and afk'd then "disconnected". When the other player saw that one "disconnect he left so I was left in there alone.

    I get on my other character and had no problem with dungeon but then I went to random skirmish. We all entered. One disconnected and another one afk'd then died and just stayed there dead. This left 3 of us trying to do skirmish.

    This really sucks. It ruins things for those of us who are actually trying to do things the right way and enjoy the game. Please fix this.
  • rhiannon#5795
    rhiannon#5795 Member Posts: 10 Arc User
    greywynd said:



    Legitimate disconnects can take longer than a minute to reconnect depending on the cause. If you don't know the person and they disconnect and their usual reconnect time is 2-3 minutes, you've just kicked them because a minute went by.

    As I stated if they get kicked for a disconnect they do not get penalized. That way if it was a legitament disconnect then all they have to do is que again and go.

  • trinity706#8838
    trinity706#8838 Member Posts: 643 Arc User

    A simple "Hey guys, we hear you and we promise to make this better as soon as we get Mod 13 out the door" would help, but I suppose we aren't worth even that

    While that would be great what can come with putting a timeframe on statements to the playerbase is a looming "death cloud". It has already been stated that the RQ system will be monitored for abuse/ways to improve it overall.
    armadeonx said:

    Here's the thing on disconnects - players can tell if a random player has been doing some work, so if they disconnect part way through the run they tend to give them time to reconnect anyway. Players can also tell if someone is leeching and (given the chance) would votekick them at the first available opportunity if they were able.

    The whole system is weighed heavily toward protecting a single player at the expense of the rest of the team.

    Yep

    Though some intentional abusers can/do "play the role" by participating a bit then proceeding to DC. Agreed, it is a delicate situation though simply allowing the abuse to continue isn't good for the health of the player base and their attitude towards the game and or others.

    As I stated if they get kicked for a disconnect they do not get penalized. That way if it was a legitament disconnect then all they have to do is que again and go.

    A legitimate DC can be faked simply by participating somewhat therefore whatever penalties need to be across the board for "disconnects" or abusers will have an opportunity to escape them.

    If a player(s) frequently has a bad connection then they can contact CS via the ticket system so that they can monitor their account and pass information gathered to the developers so that they can improve the system/be able to possibly implement things that can distinguish intentional and unintentionally DC's (even though CS can and does sometimes proceed negatively, it can be a sign of good faith on the part of the player(s)). For the most part an abuser isn't going to put a ticket in so that CS can monitor their account.

    A player with an actual bad connection isn't going to just DC in RQ's, it will pretty much happen anywhere meaning if an abuser wants to try and fake it they will be inconveniencing themselves by trying to keep up the act.
    “There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
    "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY

    Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
    Community Project: Neverwinter "RNG" Database

    Suggestions: Allow Guilds More Administrative Options \/\/ "Auto" Identify Items/"Auto-Load"/Refinement Sorting+ (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen \/\/ Character - "Legacy" Items
  • rhiannon#5795
    rhiannon#5795 Member Posts: 10 Arc User


    A player with an actual bad connection isn't going to just DC in RQ's, it will pretty much happen anywhere meaning if an abuser wants to try and fake it they will be inconveniencing themselves by trying to keep up the act.

    This was my intention with not penalizing the ones who disconnect. If it is legitamet they don't deserve to be penalized. If it is not legitamet then how many times will they have to reque before they realize that disconnecting to leech isn't going to work any more.

    I saw an earlier post where someone gave the idea to make it so that someone has to participate for 70% of the run to get the reward at the end. I like this idea but I might make it as high as 75% or 80%.

    There are things that can be done to resolve this issue and I hope that they are done soon.
  • dafrca#4810
    dafrca#4810 Member Posts: 469 Arc User

    I saw an earlier post where someone gave the idea to make it so that someone has to participate for 70% of the run to get the reward at the end. I like this idea but I might make it as high as 75% or 80%.

    Tonight, I did an RQ with someone who was just amazing. They were clearing out the monsters so fast I didn't have a chance to fire off even one spell the whole dungeon. Should I be punished because they were that good? How would you track someone who run to keep up but they didn't get to attack anything or trigger anything? Would show up as less then 70% participation and loose the rewards or do you base 70% participation by the fact they kept up and finished each section with the party regardless of their "DPS" score?

  • armadeonx
    armadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    If you remove rewards for partial participation you won't get replacement players when one leaves or gets kicked.

    The whole system is a dogs dinner - just as we knew it would be. Patching up the obvious holes will not turn it into a 'good' system but until the Dev team get over this peculiar obsession of wanting to force players into pugging their way, it will continue to suck.

    Any change they make will just be putting lipstick on a pig.
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  • asterotg
    asterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User

    Making a metric to gauge participation could be tricky with the range of iLvls that can be in a skirmish. Reducing kick timer down to 3 minutes would be a good start. Skirmishes like Master of the Hunt and Dread Legion can be done in 3 minutes or so. Pretty hard to deal with leechers when you have to wait for the 5 minute mark to kick. They can pretty much freeload with impunity.

    Had this in Master of the Hunt today and in the Dread Legion skirmish yesterday. One player never left the spawn point and we were done before we could have kicked him.

    This system is so flawed. Ppl running with 20 praying alts and less then 6k IL for RAD forcing other players to carry them. Leechers doing nothing at all or changing characters, to get reward on multiple alts. But sure, legit players have to suffer, bc kicking or leaving has to be stopped or punished. We are to stupid to make reasonable decisions.
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • rhiannon#5795
    rhiannon#5795 Member Posts: 10 Arc User
    Once again, someone qued for random skirmish. They disconnected and we had no option to kick them so we were stuck 4 manning it. Something really needs to be done about the freeloaders. It has gotten way out of hand.
  • callumf#9018
    callumf#9018 Member Posts: 1,585 Arc User
    [Don't forget there are those of us who disconnect/crash due to the graphics bug introduced back in May and it takes us over five minutes to get back into game.]
  • dafrca#4810
    dafrca#4810 Member Posts: 469 Arc User
    For me this is the hardest part; when someone drops, and I am seeing more and more people dropping at the start of an RQ, how do I tell the real disconnect (Graphics Issue) from the freeloader?

    Seems like there is a need to fix the graphics issue then put something in place where the disconnected are dropped from the RQ after a set period of time.
  • callumf#9018
    callumf#9018 Member Posts: 1,585 Arc User

    For me this is the hardest part; when someone drops, and I am seeing more and more people dropping at the start of an RQ, how do I tell the real disconnect (Graphics Issue) from the freeloader?

    Seems like there is a need to fix the graphics issue then put something in place where the disconnected are dropped from the RQ after a set period of time.

    I have only dropped twice at the very beginning - out of maybe 50 Random Queues - so usually if the toon is actively taking part THEN disconnects its probable its a genuine issue.

  • greywynd
    greywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,458 Arc User
    Had a player earlier drop from Throne before it started. Said that running 7 Thrones was enough and that the game wouldn't let him leave party/abandon instance so he just switched characters.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • wintersmoke
    wintersmoke Member Posts: 1,632 Arc User
    edited December 2017
    greywynd said:

    Had a player earlier drop from Throne before it started. Said that running 7 Thrones was enough and that the game wouldn't let him leave party/abandon instance so he just switched characters.

    Agreed. 7 thrones is MORE than enuff :/ I think I finally understand where the devs are getting their random numbers from for the RNG!
    Post edited by wintersmoke on
  • asterotg
    asterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    If the Devs would hear my friends swear in team speak about random que and exploiters, they might rethink their bright idea.

    I know for a fact, some of them did download another MMO and started playing it together after a few 'unlucky encounters' in random que.

    If you have limited play time of one or two hours a day and you have to waste 20-40 minutes on a regular basis to leechers and exploiters, it is a solid argument, so spent your time and money elsewhere. If you have more time on your hand and you run random skirmishes/ dungeon on more chars, you are more likely, to get grouped with one of those and if this happens each day multiple times, your BS tolerance might get down to zero.

    Most ppl play, to have fun. Where is the fun, in being forced to group up with random players, who exploit the HAMSTER out of the game and waste your time.
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • marv700#9957
    marv700#9957 Member Posts: 135 Arc User
    pitshade said:

    asterdahl said:

    pitshade said:

    Any chance that a change can be made to the entry gates in Throne of the Dwarven Gods, Prophecy of Madness and Illusionist's Gambit? (and ultimately Merchant Prince's Folly as well) The disconnecting people are preventing the rest of the party from entering the actual area of the skirmishes, thus wasting everyone's time.

    Thanks for the report, we'll look into these gates.
    The specific incident on Saturday was that I solo Q'd into Throne. Noted one of the party was sporting Helm guild from the alliance. They then immediately disconnected. The remaining four of us activated the door but were stuck with the 'gather your party' dialog. I was able to inspect the DC'd person and by looking on their guild page from the Alliance UI, was able to see that they had switched to another character. I spoke to one of the officers of the other guild and shortly after, the person returned and dropped party. The countdown then started to let us in.

    I am pretty sure there has been a similar case in Prophecy of Madness. The other two I can't say for certain that they are affected but it seems like a safe bet.

    Was intending to make the same point that dupeks does. There is no valid reason for someone to switch to another character while in a public queue. Maybe for a short grace period to move enchants, but that is a stretch.
    I hate to say it, but what did they think would happen if they force folks to do content they do not like in a random way. Not everyone that is DCing are freddy freeloaders. I'm sure the majority random queued and got a dungeon/skirmish that they feel is as much fun as getting a tooth drilled without Novocain. So what choice do they have? They say f'it and switch to another character.

    I know the topic has been beaten to death, but should players be FORCED to do content they hate (POM comes to mind - I will never run that) in order to potentially get content they do like and advance?

    If you went to a restaurant that forced you to eat something you hate before giving you want you want to eat, would you stay?
  • marv700#9957
    marv700#9957 Member Posts: 135 Arc User

    Easy solution: if you log in on another toon on your account, all your other toons are immediately dropped from their groups and instances. There is really no legitimate reason that you should need to swap toons like that mid run.

    Oops I left my Feytouched on my CW... brb ;)
    Yup, that has happened. But more likely in a premade than random q. But nevertheless a legitimate reason to need to swap.
  • marv700#9957
    marv700#9957 Member Posts: 135 Arc User


    A player with an actual bad connection isn't going to just DC in RQ's, it will pretty much happen anywhere meaning if an abuser wants to try and fake it they will be inconveniencing themselves by trying to keep up the act.

    This was my intention with not penalizing the ones who disconnect. If it is legitamet they don't deserve to be penalized. If it is not legitamet then how many times will they have to reque before they realize that disconnecting to leech isn't going to work any more.

    I saw an earlier post where someone gave the idea to make it so that someone has to participate for 70% of the run to get the reward at the end. I like this idea but I might make it as high as 75% or 80%.

    There are things that can be done to resolve this issue and I hope that they are done soon.
    Sadly, the cure is worse than the disease here. What constitutes participation? What if you RQ and a 17K IL player steamrolls the map faster than you can even run.

    I hate to point this out, but these are all attempts at a solutions for a problem that shouldn't even exist. Don't force people to run content they don't want and this will be far less of an issue.
  • mystar#5733
    mystar#5733 Member Posts: 179 Arc User
    5 minutes does seem like a long time to wait when we want to hurry up and finish the dungeon or skirmish...but as a legit player I've had to disconnect and relogin because of lag during a dungeon or skirmish, but I always return in time to help finish. For those who wait the 5 minutes to kick before entering, once the disconnected player has been removed, you can right click on your toon to request reinforcements and the system will look for people to reinforce your party. I have done this for ToDG, PoM, CN, and spelplague so far.
  • trinity706#8838
    trinity706#8838 Member Posts: 643 Arc User

    Don't force people to run content they don't want and this will be far less of an issue.

    If not then players for the most part will run the easiest content and those that queue for lower content will be back in the position they were in before with long queue wait times. This current system isn't necessarily in it's final form, there's a good ways to go before it will be more acceptable.

    5 minutes does seem like a long time to wait when we want to hurry up and finish the dungeon or skirmish

    Indeed, especially for the runs that can take as little as about 3 minutes or so to complete.

    but as a legit player I've had to disconnect and relogin because of lag during a dungeon or skirmish, but I always return in time to help finish.

    That's the thing, some "players" that DC intentionally do the same thing and whatever "safeguards" and or ways to proceed that "shield" legitimate players unfortunately will do the same for those that do it intentionally.

    CS can seemingly "see" when and where a character on an account logs in/out, how often, etc. and if it just happens in queues then it could be safe to assume it is intentional, if it is everywhere it is safe to assume that it isn't.
    “There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
    "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY

    Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
    Community Project: Neverwinter "RNG" Database

    Suggestions: Allow Guilds More Administrative Options \/\/ "Auto" Identify Items/"Auto-Load"/Refinement Sorting+ (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen \/\/ Character - "Legacy" Items
  • namelesshero347
    namelesshero347 Member Posts: 2,109 Arc User


    I know the topic has been beaten to death, but should players be FORCED to do content they hate (POM comes to mind - I will never run that) in order to potentially get content they do like and advance?

    If you went to a restaurant that forced you to eat something you hate before giving you want you want to eat, would you stay?

    I see it as more of a suggestion. I always leave when the run is not Master of the Hunt, Dread Legion, IG, eSoT, KR, VT, eLoL, or eToS. I even leave when people vote to stay in IG. Everything else takes too long for me for making AD. When all my toons are in the penalty box, then I go do something else and come back in a half hour. Not going to get all riled because of some penalty.
  • greywynd
    greywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,458 Arc User



    It is too much hassle to mess with menus when you can just simply change character. I do this method of quitting when I quit a fail group with freeloaders in it.

    It wasn't a fail group. It was one player looked at what it was and decided he had run it entirely too many times that day. So, in this instance it was one person being an HAMSTER, because honestly, I don't buy the "can't abandon" argument.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • rannxeroxx
    rannxeroxx Member Posts: 168 Arc User
    I mentioned before that I HATE Spellplague Caverns so much that when I get dumped into that one I walk right back out the door and then disconnect from the instants and take my 30 min in the box. Just a question, is that the "right" way to handle that? Does that leave the rest of the 4 without a 5th?

    Frankly they also need to do away with the Illusionist G. vote and just make the content shorter. My toon gives you the hate eyes when you vote to stay O_o
  • pitshade
    pitshade Member Posts: 5,420 Arc User
    If you abandon the instance then the other people are free to get a reinforcement to replace you. Additionally, since you took the Penalty, they can also leave at will with no penalty. This is IMO the 'Right' thing to do. Just disconnecting/changing characters hurts everyone else, especially in the timed Skirmishes.

    For IG, the text at the top of the screen says no reinforcements will be provided - same text as if it were a Private Queue. I assume if one person leaves no one else gets added. Have not tested this or heard from anyone who has, however.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • trinity706#8838
    trinity706#8838 Member Posts: 643 Arc User
    @spunkmeier

    A basic idea would be to remove AD from freeloaders and give it to people doing the content.

    Taking disconnects, if you are disconnected for time X and the run takes time Y then you lose X/Y of the AD reward. If you are disconnected for five minutes in a eight minute run you lose 5/8 of the AD so you would get 37.5% of the AD you would normally get and 62.5% would be lost.

    Yes, this will impact legitimate disconnects but I would argue this does not matter as not doing the content is not doing the content no matter the reason.


    The reduction in AD reward sounds pretty good. Iffy on the giving the AD to other players though simply because if multiple leechers/AFK farmers are present/queue in pairs one could be the "completer" (comes back to collect the rewards) and the other could be the "booster" (their reduction in AD goes to the other leecher/AFK farmer and others in the group).

    The people who dont abuse the mechanics but who run normal dungeons and skirmishes with item levels of under 100, like the guy who was 32nd level with an item level of 60 in a dungeon I just ran (white equipment with a few empty slots, zero damage from him of course and he was absolutely useless), are a problem that needs solved as well.

    Removing AD from them would be a start. A basic idea here would be to set the AD rewarded to 1/10th for each 500 item level you have in normal dungeons and skirmishes, do the same for epic but set the base at 7000 instead of zero, so at 7500 you get 1/10th normal, 8500 you get 3/10th's normal. As a side effect this would provide an actual incentive for people to get better gear.

    The problem here is that even with the above limits on missing characters and useless characters you are still not accounting for people who are do nothings...like slow starters and trailing characters who do no or almost no damage...and these are a problem that need solving also. You could make some sort of contribution based scale but again problems here in defining what is or is not a contribution.



    Sounds good as well. For lower level characters especially, better equipment drops quite frequently therefore seeing characters of x level (20+) still with empty slots can bring up questions of their intentions. Have seen characters in MotH and DL skirmishes (lvl 60+) with common gear on and empty slots...

    This is what some people will never get. They think that the freeloaders, time wasters, and exploiters, are not that big a problem as they just take 'a few minutes extra'. It is quite often the case that they are taking an extra fifty to one hundred percent longer, to two hundred and fifty percent longer if you have to kick them, than the time it takes the non-scummy players to get to end boss circle for example. This is wasted time that adds up the more you play.

    Truth.

    Players that are actually putting in effort increase completion times as well but more often than not do not increase the times nearly as much as the L's/AFK F's.

    Dropping from groups that have two of these freeloader characters in them, by changing characters and not abandoning, wastes their time which is the only real thing I can do to show my displeasure. I think it takes at least five minutes to remove me from their party so it slows down the ad per hour rate of bots/freeloaders (because they cant do even the easiest content like cloak tower in any reasonable time and they need a replacement sucker to run the content for them). As far as I can tell if you drop party using the menu they can get an instant replacement so for once this is the mechanics benefiting me by letting me mess with the freeloaders.

    I have popped back into the runs that have two freeloaders in them after a few minutes have passed to see what they are doing and usually they have not moved so I do think my tactic is effective even if it is game mechanics 'not working as intended'.


    It is being suggested that if you are going to continue this course of action to report the offensive player(s) as well as put a message in chat stating your intentions before switching characters because from the outside looking in you could be seen as/considered to be doing the same thing as the L's/AFK F's. At least if you report the players and post a message in chat customer service can see the reason(s) behind your particular actions, keep in mind that CS doesn't always handle situations in a logical/rational manner so even by doing the suggested you could STILL be punished though it looks better on your part to take the initiative to try and cover your bases.
    “There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
    "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY

    Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
    Community Project: Neverwinter "RNG" Database

    Suggestions: Allow Guilds More Administrative Options \/\/ "Auto" Identify Items/"Auto-Load"/Refinement Sorting+ (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen \/\/ Character - "Legacy" Items
  • eclipseblood#1326
    eclipseblood#1326 Member Posts: 202 Arc User
    Could there be a way to flag accounts that have multiple characters in dungeons at the same time? This issue is annoying to players especially considering the absurdity of the random ques, theyre clearly exploiting a mechanic in game to benefit themselves while making the experience for others, especially newer players just horrible unless theres a very strong character in the grp.