Can't give "Freddy the Freeloaders" the boot...

adamantineangel

I have been noticing certain players who have queued for random dungeons and immediately disconnect upon entering. I call them "Freddy the Freeloaders" because they clearly want the random dungeon's AD but without having to work for it.

"Freddy the Freeloaders" are easy to spot as they spawn at the dungeon entrance and walk directly to the campfire, stand there and disconnect.

Because of this, they cannot be vote-kicked because the system responds to a vote-kick by saying "they have not been in the instance long enough". They do eventually reconnect when the party has completed most (if not all) of the dungeon for them. Sometimes they will quickly disconnect again if the party has not advanced far enough. This might not seem like such a problem except, for a party of lowbies who are undergeared or have no healer companions on hand, it makes completing a more challenging dungeon next to impossible.

I understand that the Devs wanted to encourage readily assembled groups for all of the team content. However, as long as there are those who can exploit the system like this in order to guarantee a "free ride", it defeats the whole point of having a group. We need team players, not freeloaders. Please fix the vote-kick so we can quickly give "Freddy the Freeloaders" the boot.

rannxeroxx

I know that if I hit Plague cravens (I absolutely hate that DR), I walk back out the door and leave the instance. The thing is I did not realize about the instance thingy till after I had done that a few times and realized I was still in a party and had to do another step.

dafrca#4810

rannxeroxx said:

I know that if I hit Plague cravens (I absolutely hate that DR), I walk back out the door and leave the instance. The thing is I did not realize about the instance thingy till after I had done that a few times and realized I was still in a party and had to do another step.

By not leaving the party it means they can't be given a replacement either. Happened to me and another person couple of nights past. Person walked in, stood in th ecamp fire a few moments then disconnected and "rode" along until the end. They never did come back but thank the gods we were able to finish with just the two of us.

asterdahl

adamantineangel said:

Because of this, they cannot be vote-kicked because the system responds to a vote-kick by saying "they have not been in the instance long enough".

Thank you for the report. Sorry to hear you are running into players who behave like this. That message shouldn't have anything to do with the fact that they are offline, but instead is referring to a grace period all players are given upon being matched into a group before they can be kicked.

Have you tried vote-kicking them after 5 minutes have elapsed from when you entered the map? It should be possible to kick them after the grace period has elapsed even if they disconnected before being transferred to the map. Currently we don't have any plans to allow players to be kicked inside the grace period, to prevent abuse, even if they do happen to disconnect.

However, if offline players are unable to be kicked after the grace period that is a serious issue. Our team was always able to kick offline players after the grace period internally, so please let us know if you are unable to do so.

hustin1

I see this a lot in Merchant Prince's Folly.

minotaur2857

asterdahl said:

adamantineangel said:

Because of this, they cannot be vote-kicked because the system responds to a vote-kick by saying "they have not been in the instance long enough".

Thank you for the report. Sorry to hear you are running into players who behave like this. That message shouldn't have anything to do with the fact that they are offline, but instead is referring to a grace period all players are given upon being matched into a group before they can be kicked.

Have you tried vote-kicking them after 5 minutes have elapsed from when you entered the map? It should be possible to kick them after the grace period has elapsed even if they disconnected before being transferred to the map. Currently we don't have any plans to allow players to be kicked inside the grace period, to prevent abuse, even if they do happen to disconnect.

However, if offline players are unable to be kicked after the grace period that is a serious issue. Our team was always able to kick offline players after the grace period internally, so please let us know if you are unable to do so.

There is a different issue with the skirmishes that suffers from the same problem, people see that it's one they don't want to do (PoM/ToDG), and instead of leaving just disconnect, leaving the others the choice of waiting 5 minutes, doing the skirmish with 4 and prob not getting gold or leaving themselves.

Allowing a vote kick 2 minutes after somebody DCs if they've not entered combat would fix this.

namelesshero347

Devs need to give the leavers penalty for disconnects. Sure there are legitimate disconnects, but now, it is more likely someone is abusing the disconnect to avoid the leavers penalty. I know it because pre-mod 12b, I rarely saw anyone disconnect from the start. Now for the more unpopular runs, disconnects happen very often, and they almost always end up getting removed after 5 minutes.

Expect this to happen more going forward. It used to be that once the first person leaves and takes the penalty, other people can leave without a penalty. Seems this feature was removed a patch or two ago. Now every leaver takes the penalty, encouraging people to abuse the disconnect method.

dionchi

It might be something to consider for actual disconnects, that person is automatically dropped from the queue and unable to reconnect for a minute or so following a disconnect and someone already queued and waiting would take their place.

Yes, there are some legitimate disconnects that are beyond the control of players, but the worse that would happen is a disconnected person would have to queue into a different party, they disconnect again and they have to wait again until a new party queues in.

I think at one time there was something in place where when a person was disconnected from content they had to start whatever it was they were doing over, but due to complaints the developers made a work around where a player wasn't actually displaced from the content they were in for a few seconds... now it seems a few people have discovered how to take advantage of and abuse that change.

Personally I wouldn't look forward to going back the way it used to be, having to start something I was doing over from the beginning if I was accidentally disconnected in the middle of it, but if people continue to abuse the system we have currently it may well someone will decide to return to the way it used to be because of all of the abuse and complaints.

pitshade

Any chance that a change can be made to the entry gates in Throne of the Dwarven Gods, Prophecy of Madness and Illusionist's Gambit? (and ultimately Merchant Prince's Folly as well) The disconnecting people are preventing the rest of the party from entering the actual area of the skirmishes, thus wasting everyone's time.

darthtzarr

asterdahl said:

adamantineangel said:

Because of this, they cannot be vote-kicked because the system responds to a vote-kick by saying "they have not been in the instance long enough".

Thank you for the report. Sorry to hear you are running into players who behave like this. That message shouldn't have anything to do with the fact that they are offline, but instead is referring to a grace period all players are given upon being matched into a group before they can be kicked.

Have you tried vote-kicking them after 5 minutes have elapsed from when you entered the map? It should be possible to kick them after the grace period has elapsed even if they disconnected before being transferred to the map. Currently we don't have any plans to allow players to be kicked inside the grace period, to prevent abuse, even if they do happen to disconnect.

However, if offline players are unable to be kicked after the grace period that is a serious issue. Our team was always able to kick offline players after the grace period internally, so please let us know if you are unable to do so.

They cannot be kicked if they were a premade group. Even if it was a premade group of total strangers.

armadeonx

@asterdahl how about changing the kick mechanism so it allows an immediate vote on players who are disconnected / not in the map?

It won't 100% solve the issue but it'll help.

I don't think this could lead to an abuse but it would certainly help the other 4 players to continue normally and remove an avenue of exploitation.

asterotg

If the first one left, you can leave without penalty, too. Disconnects dont count as leavers.

Doors open, if the player is disconnected. Just AFK players prevent progress.

This system was and is very abusable. I saw ppl disconnecting and reentering a boatload of times. We recreated this with premades. One player is able to 'run' multiple dungeons or skirmshes, by queing up, changing character, quing up etc. Just check in after a few minutes and grab your reward. Some skirmishes or dungeons are done, before you can kick the offending party. Even if you are getting kicked in half of your runs, you can still farm ADs way faster, then legit players.

Besides this abuse there is another trend I saw and hate. Ppl farming random skirmishes on alts. You might think, wow, whats the problem there. The problem is, that some ppl have a LS army and send every existing alt into random skirmishes. When I say, that my praying alts are better geared, then 60% of these players, I am not kidding. Most players I see in skirmishes are lvl 70 with 600-6000 IL. You must be deluded, if you think, that they all are new players. First of all, You PRAY a char to lvl 70 with 600 IL. No one would PLAY until lvl 70 and have an IL of 600. Just the quest rewards would grant a higher IL. Any char WITHOUT any boons exept guild boons, R7s, hand me down epic gear, whootz artifact gear, class artifacts and cheap or free companions and mounts can easily reach 9-10k IL. Now tell me please, why most players I see in random skirmishes have an IL under 6k?

I dont mind helping out other players. I mind wasting my time, to leechers and abusers. Luckily I have a multitude of playable characters, so I can and do leave such groups on a regular basis.

pitshade

"Doors open, if the player is disconnected. Just AFK players prevent progress."

Not in the skirmishes I mentioned, at least certainly TDG and POM. Someone DCd will absolutely prevent the party from entering. I had that on Saturday im Throne and it was only because the abuser was in my alliance that I was able to get them to come back and leave the group.

greywynd

Discuss such behavior with them and the guild leadership.

asterdahl

pitshade said:

Any chance that a change can be made to the entry gates in Throne of the Dwarven Gods, Prophecy of Madness and Illusionist's Gambit? (and ultimately Merchant Prince's Folly as well) The disconnecting people are preventing the rest of the party from entering the actual area of the skirmishes, thus wasting everyone's time.

Thanks for the report, we'll look into these gates.

darthtzarr said:

asterdahl said:

adamantineangel said:

Because of this, they cannot be vote-kicked because the system responds to a vote-kick by saying "they have not been in the instance long enough".

Thank you for the report. Sorry to hear you are running into players who behave like this. That message shouldn't have anything to do with the fact that they are offline, but instead is referring to a grace period all players are given upon being matched into a group before they can be kicked.

Have you tried vote-kicking them after 5 minutes have elapsed from when you entered the map? It should be possible to kick them after the grace period has elapsed even if they disconnected before being transferred to the map. Currently we don't have any plans to allow players to be kicked inside the grace period, to prevent abuse, even if they do happen to disconnect.

However, if offline players are unable to be kicked after the grace period that is a serious issue. Our team was always able to kick offline players after the grace period internally, so please let us know if you are unable to do so.

They cannot be kicked if they were a premade group. Even if it was a premade group of total strangers.

This is intentional, if players you joined as part of a premade with are abusing the system in this way, avoid playing with them in the future. All sorts of additional abuse would be possible if premade groups were able to vote-kick one another. Keep in mind, however, that if you are a partial premade, those outside your premade should still be able to initiate a vote kick on one of your premade members, if for instance, they disconnected and are not coming back.

armadeonx said:

@asterdahl how about changing the kick mechanism so it allows an immediate vote on players who are disconnected / not in the map?

It won't 100% solve the issue but it'll help.

I don't think this could lead to an abuse but it would certainly help the other 4 players to continue normally and remove an avenue of exploitation.

It's something we're considering. There are ways it could be abused, so we have to be careful about these sorts of adjustments. First I'd like to confirm that the OP and others reporting they are unable to kick offline players are only referring to the grace period. Most content should be longer than the grace period, allowing the offline user to be kicked, whether they reconnect briefly or not.

namelesshero347 said:

Devs need to give the leavers penalty for disconnects. Sure there are legitimate disconnects, but now, it is more likely someone is abusing the disconnect to avoid the leavers penalty. I know it because pre-mod 12b, I rarely saw anyone disconnect from the start. Now for the more unpopular runs, disconnects happen very often, and they almost always end up getting removed after 5 minutes.

Expect this to happen more going forward. It used to be that once the first person leaves and takes the penalty, other people can leave without a penalty. Seems this feature was removed a patch or two ago. Now every leaver takes the penalty, encouraging people to abuse the disconnect method.

We won't be giving leaver penalties on disconnects, at least not 1:1. There are enough players with unstable connections that would be unfairly punished for intermittent, legitimate disconnects where they make every effort to reconnect in a timely fashion and continue their runs.

That said, we are considering methods for adding strict punishment for players who are clearly abusing the system. However, we need to be cautious not to catch legitimate players.

darthtzarr

asterdahl said:

darthtzarr said:

asterdahl said:

adamantineangel said:

Because of this, they cannot be vote-kicked because the system responds to a vote-kick by saying "they have not been in the instance long enough".

Thank you for the report. Sorry to hear you are running into players who behave like this. That message shouldn't have anything to do with the fact that they are offline, but instead is referring to a grace period all players are given upon being matched into a group before they can be kicked.

Have you tried vote-kicking them after 5 minutes have elapsed from when you entered the map? It should be possible to kick them after the grace period has elapsed even if they disconnected before being transferred to the map. Currently we don't have any plans to allow players to be kicked inside the grace period, to prevent abuse, even if they do happen to disconnect.

However, if offline players are unable to be kicked after the grace period that is a serious issue. Our team was always able to kick offline players after the grace period internally, so please let us know if you are unable to do so.

They cannot be kicked if they were a premade group. Even if it was a premade group of total strangers.

This is intentional, if players you joined as part of a premade with are abusing the system in this way, avoid playing with them in the future. All sorts of additional abuse would be possible if premade groups were able to vote-kick one another. Keep in mind, however, that if you are a partial premade, those outside your premade should still be able to initiate a vote kick on one of your premade members, if for instance, they disconnected and are not coming back.

I mean they disconnect during map transfer and we end up waiting 15 minutes to abandon the instance because we have no other choice. What extra abuse could even be done if they still had the 5 minute grace period?

Some of these disconnected players never display as disconnected. They have a broken player model (with no name) sitting in the instance, but don't actually exist there, since some players cannot even see them. They don't show up on guild rosters or find person. After the instance is abandoned, they show as disconnected in the party.

dupeks

Does the system have any way of knowing that a "disconnect" is in fact the player switching to a different character?

I think that perhaps kicking protections should wear off if the account reconnects on a different character. That would help sort out the queue juggling exploiters from legit disconnects.

firefly#7004

asterdahl said:

We won't be giving leaver penalties on disconnects, at least not 1:1. There are enough players with unstable connections that would be unfairly punished for intermittent, legitimate disconnects where they make every effort to reconnect in a timely fashion and continue their runs.

Thats great to hear, couse of needed relog sometimes when starting a tong session and the possibility of unstable server connections.

asterdahl said:

That said, we are considering methods for adding strict punishment for players who are clearly abusing the system. However, we need to be cautious not to catch legitimate players.

Just my 2 cent: Maybe you could stop thinking about programming penalties in that case and just enable the group to kick vote a Player if he is offline for more than one minute or has changed the character like dupeks mentioned. The group has the intention to "get the dungeon right" and for sure doesn't like the offline player so they will "judge him right".
If you furthermore add the possibility for the group to kick the player in that particular case without the "one kick in 4 hours" penalty, the players could fix the problem with that kind of players them self.

pitshade

asterdahl said:

pitshade said:

Any chance that a change can be made to the entry gates in Throne of the Dwarven Gods, Prophecy of Madness and Illusionist's Gambit? (and ultimately Merchant Prince's Folly as well) The disconnecting people are preventing the rest of the party from entering the actual area of the skirmishes, thus wasting everyone's time.

Thanks for the report, we'll look into these gates.

The specific incident on Saturday was that I solo Q'd into Throne. Noted one of the party was sporting Helm guild from the alliance. They then immediately disconnected. The remaining four of us activated the door but were stuck with the 'gather your party' dialog. I was able to inspect the DC'd person and by looking on their guild page from the Alliance UI, was able to see that they had switched to another character. I spoke to one of the officers of the other guild and shortly after, the person returned and dropped party. The countdown then started to let us in.

I am pretty sure there has been a similar case in Prophecy of Madness. The other two I can't say for certain that they are affected but it seems like a safe bet.

Was intending to make the same point that dupeks does. There is no valid reason for someone to switch to another character while in a public queue. Maybe for a short grace period to move enchants, but that is a stretch.

greywynd

Maybe flag the character/account so that whatever skirmish/dungeon they abandon is the only one that they can run until they get gold (skirmish) or a successful run (dungeons).

wintersmoke

namelesshero347 said:

Devs need to give the leavers penalty for disconnects. Sure there are legitimate disconnects, but now, it is more likely someone is abusing the disconnect to avoid the leavers penalty. I know it because pre-mod 12b, I rarely saw anyone disconnect from the start. Now for the more unpopular runs, disconnects happen very often, and they almost always end up getting removed after 5 minutes.

Expect this to happen more going forward. It used to be that once the first person leaves and takes the penalty, other people can leave without a penalty. Seems this feature was removed a patch or two ago. Now every leaver takes the penalty, encouraging people to abuse the disconnect method.

As someone that has a weather- related iffy wifi connection... they do.

oldbaldyone

Easy solution: if you log in on another toon on your account, all your other toons are immediately dropped from their groups and instances. There is really no legitimate reason that you should need to swap toons like that mid run.

Add an additional 60 second timer to kick people who are disconnected completely and not logged on another toon, and this problem is solved. If they want to sit and look at their screen afk at the campfire, then so be it...its their own detriment.

darthtzarr

oldbaldyone said:

Easy solution: if you log in on another toon on your account, all your other toons are immediately dropped from their groups and instances. There is really no legitimate reason that you should need to swap toons like that mid run.

Oops I left my Feytouched on my CW... brb

armadeonx

dupeks said:

Does the system have any way of knowing that a "disconnect" is in fact the player switching to a different character?

I think that perhaps kicking protections should wear off if the account reconnects on a different character. That would help sort out the queue juggling exploiters from legit disconnects.

This is a good idea

dionchi

dupeks said:

I think that perhaps kicking protections should wear off if the account reconnects on a different character. That would help sort out the queue juggling exploiters from legit disconnects.

oldbaldyone said:

Easy solution: if you log in on another toon on your account, all your other toons are immediately dropped from their groups and instances. There is really no legitimate reason that you should need to swap toons like that mid run.

Add an additional 60 second timer to kick people who are disconnected completely and not logged on another toon, and this problem is solved. If they want to sit and look at their screen afk at the campfire, then so be it...its their own detriment.

Great suggestions

asterotg

I joined random skirmish with a friend of mine and one of the other players was offline 90% of the time. Both of us NEVER were able to initiate a vote kick on him, even after 11 minutes. I dont want to sound like a jerk, but staying for the last two minutes, to grab your reward does not make me forget, that we had to do the skirmish with 4 players. If this is intentional, I will rather leave the group and que with another character, then doing the work for these ppl in future runs.

I know, that I dont get less reward, bc some leecher gets his RAD etc., too, but for me it is not a matter of RAD, but of the total disregard shown to me and the other players.

anomalea

Similar to asterotg' s experience, was in a random dungeon (CC) and the one player d/c'd immediately but continued to check our progress by popping in several times before the grace periods expired. We were never able to kick him. He showed up at the end and collected the chest.

veywiil#8685

As outlined in my long allegory of queue system abuse: There are many problems afflicting the random queues, the one that leaves the worst taste in your mouth is freeloaders. Players should NOT be allowed to queue and run content on multiple characters on the same account at once. That's just plain old abusive and needs to be patched soon. Seriously I'm not joking, it's happening very very often.

sandukutupu

@asterdahl my husband operates a computer company, so I understand the frustration that programming can cause. Since our house contains his LAN room, I can often hear his frustration verbally expressed. I don't desire to make your life any harder, but here is my suggestion. Players may love it or hate or both.

Immediately upon disconnect the disconnected player's character is replaced by an AI (8 simple AI like the companions) and follows the group for support. If the player fails to return within either a) time limit, b) logs on to another character, or c) the dungeon completed over 30%. Then the AI continues and no reward is given to that player's account. Should the player reconnect this means their character will spawn near the party the AI is replaced, as if nothing happened. The connected players will be able to continue the dungeon with or without the players who disconnect.

• No reward for freeloaders because they must complete 70% of the dungeon.
  
• Helps those who have connectivity issues.
  
• Punishes no one but the freeloader.
  

I know, it is simple to say, and more difficult to program. There are players who will hate the idea. But it is only a suggestion, if you are anything like my husband, you have your face buried in both palms of your hands about now.

armadeonx

And the worst part is, nobody else can quit as they'll get a 30 min queue ban. The 12b changes have enabled abusers to hold other players hostage.