Can't give "Freddy the Freeloaders" the boot...

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  • minotaur2857
    minotaur2857 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,140 Arc User
    armadeonx said:

    And the worst part is, nobody else can quit as they'll get a 30 min queue ban. The 12b changes have enabled abusers to hold other players hostage.

    Remove the quit penalty if somebody has disconnected (maybe for more than say 2 mins)
  • ivansinkovic1
    ivansinkovic1 Member Posts: 43 Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    pitshade said:

    Any chance that a change can be made to the entry gates in Throne of the Dwarven Gods, Prophecy of Madness and Illusionist's Gambit? (and ultimately Merchant Prince's Folly as well) The disconnecting people are preventing the rest of the party from entering the actual area of the skirmishes, thus wasting everyone's time.

    Thanks for the report, we'll look into these gates.

    asterdahl said:

    Because of this, they cannot be vote-kicked because the system responds to a vote-kick by saying "they have not been in the instance long enough".

    Thank you for the report. Sorry to hear you are running into players who behave like this. That message shouldn't have anything to do with the fact that they are offline, but instead is referring to a grace period all players are given upon being matched into a group before they can be kicked.

    Have you tried vote-kicking them after 5 minutes have elapsed from when you entered the map? It should be possible to kick them after the grace period has elapsed even if they disconnected before being transferred to the map. Currently we don't have any plans to allow players to be kicked inside the grace period, to prevent abuse, even if they do happen to disconnect.

    However, if offline players are unable to be kicked after the grace period that is a serious issue. Our team was always able to kick offline players after the grace period internally, so please let us know if you are unable to do so.
    They cannot be kicked if they were a premade group. Even if it was a premade group of total strangers.
    This is intentional, if players you joined as part of a premade with are abusing the system in this way, avoid playing with them in the future. All sorts of additional abuse would be possible if premade groups were able to vote-kick one another. Keep in mind, however, that if you are a partial premade, those outside your premade should still be able to initiate a vote kick on one of your premade members, if for instance, they disconnected and are not coming back.
    armadeonx said:

    @asterdahl how about changing the kick mechanism so it allows an immediate vote on players who are disconnected / not in the map?

    It won't 100% solve the issue but it'll help.

    I don't think this could lead to an abuse but it would certainly help the other 4 players to continue normally and remove an avenue of exploitation.

    It's something we're considering. There are ways it could be abused, so we have to be careful about these sorts of adjustments. First I'd like to confirm that the OP and others reporting they are unable to kick offline players are only referring to the grace period. Most content should be longer than the grace period, allowing the offline user to be kicked, whether they reconnect briefly or not.

    Devs need to give the leavers penalty for disconnects. Sure there are legitimate disconnects, but now, it is more likely someone is abusing the disconnect to avoid the leavers penalty. I know it because pre-mod 12b, I rarely saw anyone disconnect from the start. Now for the more unpopular runs, disconnects happen very often, and they almost always end up getting removed after 5 minutes.

    Expect this to happen more going forward. It used to be that once the first person leaves and takes the penalty, other people can leave without a penalty. Seems this feature was removed a patch or two ago. Now every leaver takes the penalty, encouraging people to abuse the disconnect method.

    We won't be giving leaver penalties on disconnects, at least not 1:1. There are enough players with unstable connections that would be unfairly punished for intermittent, legitimate disconnects where they make every effort to reconnect in a timely fashion and continue their runs.

    That said, we are considering methods for adding strict punishment for players who are clearly abusing the system. However, we need to be cautious not to catch legitimate players.

    @asterdahl
    Just check if that account is currently active on another character. Most of those people just switch characters.
    I can't say that what they're doing is good, but most of the time they just get frustrated - in PoM it is quite hard to get gold with good party who knows what they should do. But over 80% of people you get in party (at least in my case) are 6-8k iL who don't even know what to do. Same with ToDG - people keep stunning/killing hulks, aiming at wrong places, etc...

    And don't get me started for Illusionist's gambit (level 20 - 69) - there are some hamsters who have dps & survavibility of a salad on vegan party, and they keep voting to stay. Today I had two of those parties, one was 46 min long, and the second one was 39ish (picture was taken near the end)


  • sundance777
    sundance777 Member Posts: 1,097 Arc User
    dupeks said:

    Does the system have any way of knowing that a "disconnect" is in fact the player switching to a different character?

    I think that perhaps kicking protections should wear off if the account reconnects on a different character. That would help sort out the queue juggling exploiters from legit disconnects.

    You could PM them to see if they are in-fact online, at least that works on Xbox, not sure about PC.
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  • isaintify1
    isaintify1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 414 Arc User
    I just ran into one of these people.. reported him of course but unsure it will do much at all. We loaded into a random skirmish and he within about seven seconds disconnected. There was no vote kick option or anything.
  • lowjohn
    lowjohn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,061 Arc User



    You could PM them to see if they are in-fact online, at least that works on Xbox, not sure about PC.

    Search person for @handle usually works.


    Remove the quit penalty if somebody has disconnected (maybe for more than say 2 mins)

    So if my group wants to queue together but not do MSP, and we get MSP, one person disconnects, the other 4 goof off for 2 minutes, then one leaves without penalty because of disconnected guy, (removing the penalty for the others), the disconnected guy returns, the remaining 4 leave, group reforms, group queues again to get a new random dungeon?

    This is not a workable solution.
  • ultimatefgt123
    ultimatefgt123 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 96 Arc User
    edited December 2017
    Just enable vote kick.

    Sure there will be times it will be abused, but ffs come on its not like people aren't abusing the random queues right now.. atleast this stops 4 out of 5 players from being held hostage for 15mins unable to even enter the dungeon.

    Which is the bigger evil here?
  • dionchi
    dionchi Member Posts: 907 Arc User
    edited December 2017
    I have to say allowing party members the vote kick option is probably my least favorite suggested solution given witness to some of the previous abuses I've saw before the kick options were changed. I would much rather see some kind of in game programmed response to remove a player from a party or map a few seconds after they've disconnected (and some way to flag the account for players who connect and disconnect repeatedly)....

    Also since there are people capable of speed running through so many of the random queues, often everything is done except the final boss battle before the timer to allowing a disconnected person to be kicked has elapsed and all the other party members are essentially "held hostage" because of one disconnected player. That being said, perhaps something that would automatically kick a disconnected person when all of the rest of the party members reach a barrier that requires all party members to assemble before proceeding?

    I realize there are legitimate disconnects that have nothing to do with a player trying to scam the game, but at worse those players who are dropped will have to start over in a new party and at best it would prohibit anyone from intentionally disconnecting just to try to return to the same instance at the end game just to claim the prize.
    DD~
  • kemnimtarkas
    kemnimtarkas Member Posts: 831 Arc User

    asterdahl said:

    Because of this, they cannot be vote-kicked because the system responds to a vote-kick by saying "they have not been in the instance long enough".

    Thank you for the report. Sorry to hear you are running into players who behave like this. That message shouldn't have anything to do with the fact that they are offline, but instead is referring to a grace period all players are given upon being matched into a group before they can be kicked.

    Have you tried vote-kicking them after 5 minutes have elapsed from when you entered the map? It should be possible to kick them after the grace period has elapsed even if they disconnected before being transferred to the map. Currently we don't have any plans to allow players to be kicked inside the grace period, to prevent abuse, even if they do happen to disconnect.

    However, if offline players are unable to be kicked after the grace period that is a serious issue. Our team was always able to kick offline players after the grace period internally, so please let us know if you are unable to do so.
    There is a different issue with the skirmishes that suffers from the same problem, people see that it's one they don't want to do (PoM/ToDG), and instead of leaving just disconnect, leaving the others the choice of waiting 5 minutes, doing the skirmish with 4 and prob not getting gold or leaving themselves.

    Allowing a vote kick 2 minutes after somebody DCs if they've not entered combat would fix this.

    That's been my exp - the few times it's happened - the remaining players always just vote to abandon the instance w/o penalty rather than waste 5 minutes waiting.
  • silverrrrrrr
    silverrrrrrr Member Posts: 145 Arc User
    I ran into this issue today when random queueing a normal dungeon. Upon entering, both other players travelled out to other instances, and then both eventually disconnected, leaving me with 2 disconnected players and no way to vote kick or replace them. Luckily I was on one of my characters that can complete normal dungeons with no problem, but that would be ridiculous if I were a new/below-70 player. Before grace period ends, can't kick 'em, after grace period ends, not enough people to vote kick.
    dupeks said:

    I think that perhaps kicking protections should wear off if the account reconnects on a different character. That would help sort out the queue juggling exploiters from legit disconnects.

    That being said, I really like this idea. However, I'm sure some people will just disconnect for a few minutes without rejoining to avoid this. Still able to be abused, but with much less gain to the abuser.
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  • demonmonger
    demonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    worse than your problem.. i was soloing a map... opened it to allow a friend to join... that friend left, and 4 more people joined and closed my instance. Wasted 2 hours of my life because they took over my map and closed it.
    No strangers should be able to enter my map and close it.

    Was testing mechanics and having fun alone..
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  • minotaur2857
    minotaur2857 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,140 Arc User
    edited December 2017
    lowjohn said:



    You could PM them to see if they are in-fact online, at least that works on Xbox, not sure about PC.

    Search person for @handle usually works.


    Remove the quit penalty if somebody has disconnected (maybe for more than say 2 mins)

    So if my group wants to queue together but not do MSP, and we get MSP, one person disconnects, the other 4 goof off for 2 minutes, then one leaves without penalty because of disconnected guy, (removing the penalty for the others), the disconnected guy returns, the remaining 4 leave, group reforms, group queues again to get a new random dungeon?

    This is not a workable solution.
    TBF I would support this being allowed, but I know it's not in the spirit of what the devs want to do. FBI and eLoL are buggy for me so I don't RQ for epic dungeons atm, I would if I could do this in a group that could avoid them without penalty. I always RQ for skirmishes solo so the team dynamic you outline doesn't apply.

  • adinosii
    adinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
    armadeonx said:

    This all stems from the goal of wanting to making people run content they don't want to run.

    Absolutely, totally, 100% agree. As we warned when the RQs were up for testing on Preview, the system just does not work.

    I am not going to repeat my previous comments - they have been ignored, and I don't expect that to change.

    Unless the long-term goal is to drive the player population down, I consider the RQs to be an unmitigated failure.
    Hoping for improvements...
  • chemjeff
    chemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    Or, we could just give up on the whole random queue idea...
  • preechr#2215
    preechr#2215 Member Posts: 488 Arc User
    Each component going into new content like mod 12b is developed in a bubble, with each part, like @asterdahl 's RQ system not really looking at any sort of larger picture (I'm sure that the "boss" is supposed to be thinking about the big picture, but this isn't about the boss)

    Asterdahl is given a set of goals and he has to make it all work while getting feedback from us and seeing if there are things he can modify based on that feedback, but at the end of the day, there are certain things that obviously cannot be changed for whatever reason and the imperative is that this thing will happen

    As with all things Neverwinter, the standard line is we roll it out and then we monitor it to make it better... The thing is, historically we players know where this goes, and tons of us tried to warn you guys about it... but that has all been said to death

    Here is the big takeaway: The next time you get a project, remember how this went down and factor that into the initial meetings concerning the shape and requirements of that project

    Another really big thing to consider: From the average player point of view, think about the effects of this kind of stuff

    1. Devs remove the ability to "peek" in a chest but promise better loot in exchange, then immediately roll back the better loot
    2. Devs weaken the effects of control abilities for players while strengthening the control abilities of mobs
    3. Mob control abilities ignore player immunities that are foundational to classes like Unstoppable
    4. Bondings nerfed with a promise that the power can be "bought back" via r14s, but then r14s rendered near impossible
    5. ...read through the forums... there are tons of these examples of what players label "unfair" changes
    6. Look also at other examples given of "unfair" things other games have done to players

    Sure, none of that has to do specifically with Random Ques, but IT REALLY DOES

    As a random, average player, over time you might get the impression that this game and its developers cheat, which, for the average player means its now OK to cheat the game whenever you can, so when an unpopular change comes out, like RQ, an uncomfortable number of players feel entitled to exploit any and every weakness in it

    Think back to when this project was first handed off... Knowing how it would work out, given the challenges of fixing it to make it work correctly now, what could have been done differently?

    As project lead, be brave enough to insist on re-working RQ to not be a failure, and be wise enough to think through the next project in the light of this one
  • eclipseblood#1326
    eclipseblood#1326 Member Posts: 202 Arc User
    Is there a way that u could make a mechanic that when u select a different character, ur previous character leaves dungeon instances? That could help alot if that was implemented imo
  • trinity706#8838
    trinity706#8838 Member Posts: 643 Arc User
    armadeonx said:

    This all stems from the goal of wanting to making people run content they don't want to run.

    Well..... players were doing the same things even before RQ's were introduced...

    The thing was players used to private queue with others plus also get bonus RAD and when solo queues were enabled players could sidestep the "negative nancy's" (leechers/AFK farmers) even more, the upside being not needing others/a full group to get into the queue.

    Those players have pretty much always existed, just side stepped and since private queues no longer grant bonus RAD upon completion essentially removing the benefit to run them in that manner more and more players are encountering them.



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  • b4t1b4t
    b4t1b4t Member Posts: 275 Arc User
    Workable solution would be a pop up message box to vote to kick a disconnected person from group. If the vote gets more no's then the party has to wait until the selected time limit expires thus removing that disconnected person from the group so that the group can reform and continue. However if it gets more yes votes that disconnected person is removed allowing the team to reform. This of course should only happen when a person disconnects.
    This will fix the issue on waiting on 1 person and if by chance it is a real disconnect and not a fake one it will also allow the group to wait on that person to log back in.
    Typing this makes me seem smart and I believe I should start working for this game lol. I have alot of great solutions and fixes to many things.
  • akanaro
    akanaro Member Posts: 51 Arc User
    edited December 2017
    Players deliberately disconnecting is not the only issue with random (three man) dungeons. Bots are becoming a huge issue and this needs to be dealt with drastically. You'll often find a 2 man pre-made consisting of bots in the 3 man random dungeons doing nothing but walk behind the unlucky 3rd player who must do everything on his own. They are not very good bots either as they take obscure routes, won't mount where possible and basically take forever to eventually arrive at the final boss chamber. Obviously vote kicking is not even an option here.

    Cryptic needs to rethink and rework this whole system because as is it's just one big exploit.
  • greywynd
    greywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,458 Arc User
    akanaro said:

    Players deliberately disconnecting is not the only issue with random (three man) dungeons. Bots are becoming a huge issue and this needs to be dealt with drastically. You'll often find a 2 man pre-made consisting of bots in the 3 man random dungeons doing nothing but walk behind the unlucky 3rd player who must do everything on his own. They are not very good bots either as they take obscure routes, won't mount where possible and basically take forever to eventually arrive at the final boss chamber. Obviously vote kicking is not even an option here.

    Cryptic needs to rethink and rework this whole system because as is it's just one big exploit.

    If you have the time and know they are bots, don't go into the final fight. Stand at the fire and wait. Eventually those bots will disconnect. Kill the boss. Get the loot. Leave. The bots won't have anything to come back to.
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  • rhiannon#5795
    rhiannon#5795 Member Posts: 10 Arc User
    Just a suggestion here. Make it so that if someone is disconnected for one minute then they can be vote kicked. To keep from punishing the legitamet disconnects make it so that they are not penalized, that run does not count. If someone is vote kicked for entering and going AFK then they are penalized and that run counts against them.

    Doing this will penalize the ones who AFK on purpose without penalizing the legitamet disconnects.
  • greywynd
    greywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,458 Arc User

    Just a suggestion here. Make it so that if someone is disconnected for one minute then they can be vote kicked. To keep from punishing the legitamet disconnects make it so that they are not penalized, that run does not count. If someone is vote kicked for entering and going AFK then they are penalized and that run counts against them.

    Doing this will penalize the ones who AFK on purpose without penalizing the legitamet disconnects.

    Legitimate disconnects can take longer than a minute to reconnect depending on the cause. If you don't know the person and they disconnect and their usual reconnect time is 2-3 minutes, you've just kicked them because a minute went by.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • dionchi
    dionchi Member Posts: 907 Arc User
    edited December 2017
    greywynd said:


    Legitimate disconnects can take longer than a minute to reconnect depending on the cause. If you don't know the person and they disconnect and their usual reconnect time is 2-3 minutes, you've just kicked them because a minute went by.

    That's why I suggested a in game programmed mechanism to drop disconnected players or players who repeatedly disconnect and reconnect after "x" seconds/instances and the dropped players are not allowed to reconnect to the same party/instance from which they were dropped. It may not assuage a dropped person's feelings about being dropped but then they can be pretty sure no party dropped them out of spite or some other seemingly unsavory reason.

    The unfortunate aspect of the dropped player having to start again in another party and another instance still remains and of course this only addresses the disconnected characters and not the AFK'ers or other non participating characters but some of those problem don't seem insurmountable to me either...

    A couple of staging areas (random changeable would be optimal) at already existing doors/barriers where all party members have to assemble before proceeding should adequately address some of the AFK'ers (of course speed runners who leave other party members behind won't be happy about this suggestion).

    Just my thoughts on the subject.
    DD~
  • b4t1b4t
    b4t1b4t Member Posts: 275 Arc User
    I disconnected earlier in MSP not cause I wanted to but because my net for some reason decided to disconnect me. I didnt get fully dced but was offline in game. Took me around 2 or so mins to reload and relogin.
    At the time the team I was in we was having a conversation. This should clearly tell anyone that the disconnect was a real disconnect.
    I never ran into any bots in any dungeon random I ran so cant speak on that but I have ran into people that at the start of a dungeon would disconnect.
    This issue is a problem because 1 of 2 things happens. 1 we all wait till we can kick or 2 someone decides to leave and then the rest are there waiting to run a dungeon.
    Time is important and Not sure how everyone else feels but as for me I feel that when I join a random dungeon or a public dungeon that when I join I wish to start and get it going. I dont enjoy sitting in a dungeon waiting for the time to kick a user. That bores me and makes me become frustrated and even makes me dislike the game.
    Sure I may que for FBI or MSP and ya get a que pop but when you have to sit at the campfire for along time waiting for vote to kick to be enabled makes me want to just say screw it.
  • trinity706#8838
    trinity706#8838 Member Posts: 643 Arc User
    macjae said:

    While it's true that the vote-kick system has been the subject of a lot of abuse, the current version of it provides a lot of protection to non-contributing players, leeches and trolls. There's never a perfect or ideal take on this, but the current system is rife with potential for abuse from free-riders and non-contributors.

    asterotg said:

    Besides this abuse there is another trend I saw and hate. Ppl farming random skirmishes on alts. You might think, wow, whats the problem there. The problem is, that some ppl have a LS army and send every existing alt into random skirmishes. When I say, that my praying alts are better geared, then 60% of these players, I am not kidding. Most players I see in skirmishes are lvl 70 with 600-6000 IL. You must be deluded, if you think, that they all are new players. First of all, You PRAY a char to lvl 70 with 600 IL. No one would PLAY until lvl 70 and have an IL of 600. Just the quest rewards would grant a higher IL. Any char WITHOUT any boons exept guild boons, R7s, hand me down epic gear, whootz artifact gear, class artifacts and cheap or free companions and mounts can easily reach 9-10k IL. Now tell me please, why most players I see in random skirmishes have an IL under 6k?

    True stuff.

    Immediately upon disconnect the disconnected player's character is replaced by an AI (8 simple AI like the companions) and follows the group for support. If the player fails to return within either a) time limit, b) logs on to another character, or c) the dungeon completed over 30%. Then the AI continues and no reward is given to that player's account. Should the player reconnect this means their character will spawn near the party the AI is replaced, as if nothing happened. The connected players will be able to continue the dungeon with or without the players who disconnect.

    • No reward for freeloaders because they must complete 70% of the dungeon.
    • Helps those who have connectivity issues.
    • Punishes no one but the freeloader.
    Quite interesting
    dionchi said:

    A couple of staging areas (random changeable would be optimal) at already existing doors/barriers where all party members have to assemble before proceeding should adequately address some of the AFK'ers

    Staging areas seemingly pose more of a problem/issue for groups that have a leecher(s)/AFK Farmer(s) because they can't start/proceed without everyone present. W/o staging areas at least speed runners can go through the queue and be at the end and decide what to do when the vote-to-kick option becomes available (as long as their intentions are not malicious).
    dupeks said:

    I think that perhaps kicking protections should wear off if the account reconnects on a different character. That would help sort out the queue juggling exploiters from legit disconnects.

    Is there a way that u could make a mechanic that when u select a different character, ur previous character leaves dungeon instances? That could help alot if that was implemented imo

    To make that worthwhile the account that switches to another character would have to get some kind of penalty or it would just be another loophole to either leech/AFK Farm or get out of an unwanted queue.
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  • trinity706#8838
    trinity706#8838 Member Posts: 643 Arc User
    edited December 2017
    The thing about disconnects is some are legitimate though a good number of them are deliberate, negative players know this and utilize "disconnecting" to their advantage.

    Unfortunately the more leniency players that actually disconnect get the more leeway disconnect abusers get. Not to try and come off as rude and or inconsiderate and keeping at the forefront every legitimate player has a right to play, players with bad internet connections are in part helping negative players get away with such behavior because the players that "frequently" disconnect due to something beyond their control are kept in mind when structuring changes to help resolve situations regarding something such as this.

    Unfortunately for such things to "truly" be effective legitimate disconnectors will essentially have to take some of the brunt...
    “There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
    "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY

    Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
    Community Project: Neverwinter "RNG" Database

    Suggestions: Allow Guilds More Administrative Options \/\/ "Auto" Identify Items/"Auto-Load"/Refinement Sorting+ (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen \/\/ Character - "Legacy" Items
  • xenocide#6119
    xenocide#6119 Member Posts: 251 Arc User
    I've had a random skirmishs in throne of the dwarven gods where our party couldnt even start because of a person going afk before alowing us to enter the dungeon. I realize some times things come up in real life, but having to wait 15 mins to vote to abandon... Perhaps we could lower the time limit on abandon instance votes.
    Only being able to do this every 4 hours should help to prevent abuse.
  • armadeonx
    armadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    Here's the thing on disconnects - players can tell if a random player has been doing some work, so if they disconnect part way through the run they tend to give them time to reconnect anyway. Players can also tell if someone is leeching and (given the chance) would votekick them at the first available opportunity if they were able.

    The whole system is weighed heavily toward protecting a single player at the expense of the rest of the team.

    I'd prefer the leaver penalty was just scrapped as the promised safeguards have not been delivered - but failing that, just make it possible to kick disconnects immediately.

    Yes, a few innocents will get kicked but if they are kicked at the beginning of the run then they've not lost a lot of time.
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