So 10 posts since I put up the summary of all changes and they are the same old "looks good" and "looks bad" posts.
How about waiting for the module to go up and then actually testing stuff to see what actually happened?
Given the 27 Feb deadline for releasing the module, preview has to go live in the next week, then we will all know what is happening.
Also board admins would it be possible to get a new clean thread for discussion after Mod 13 goes live? This is 20 pages long already and we haven't been able to do the testing yet.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
So 10 posts since I put up the summary of all changes and they are the same old "looks good" and "looks bad" posts.
How about waiting for the module to go up and then actually testing stuff to see what actually happened?
Given the 27 Feb deadline for releasing the module, preview has to go live in the next week, then we will all know what is happening.
Also board admins would it be possible to get a new clean thread for discussion after Mod 13 goes live? This is 20 pages long already and we haven't been able to do the testing yet.
Just wanted to pop in here to make a quick announcement on this. Barring any major problems, Module 13 should up on preview tonight! This means that all of these changes, including the bug fixes, should be available to players.
As for a new discussion - I would prefer to just continue off of this page, however, if there is an influx of feedback, or if it becomes confusing/tedious to navigate through 20+ pages, I will consider making a new thread.
That said, I'm excited for all of you to get your hands on these changes and will be continuing to read/address feedback. I will be periodically checking in over the weekend, so if there's anything confusing that you need answered, I'll hopefully be able to clear up any confusion.
Note: Eldritch Momentum is still in its pre-feedback state, so that is likely to change in the next couple of weeks.
Please consider taking a look a SW specific problems: - Very long casting times. - Dot damage (both from powers and procs like Creeping Death) needs far too much time to deal full damage and in endgame teams are able to 1 rotate bosses even in t9g (not exaggerating and there's evidence about it), SW is helpless there. - Lower proc rates than other strikers (like Aura of Courage or some class feats) - Lower damage potential than other classes. - Killing Flames min damage value is hardcore low and reaches max damage potential (that's not even that good) when enemies are almost dead, it literary is (out of the "hard hitting" encounters from all classes) the most limited and inconsistent encounter power. On top of that, casting speed is very slow. - Passive powers are horribly underpowerd or flat out worthless, a few of them look like are they aren't of a dps class.
My feedback so far: Brood of Hadar: All ticks of this power now properly apply Creeping Death. fine so far Brutal Curse now increases Tyrannical Curse's damage debuff by 2/4/6/8/10%, in addition to Warlock Curse. as far as I can say it´s working, debuff+10%, dps buff for WC works also Creeping Death: Damage has been increased to 75% (up from 60%).fine Critical Promise: Damage has been reduced to 4/8/12/16/20% (down from 10/20/30/40/50%), but now scales with buffs / Power.damage too low, compared to Killing Curse, some buffs do not work (powerscaling?) Daughter's Promise: The damage dealt from this power now scales with power/buffs. Dreadtheft: This power has been updated. It now ticks twice per second, lasts up to 6 seconds, and its damage per tick has been significantly increased. fine so far Dreadtheft now procs weapon enchantments on every tick.procs all WE except fire and plague once and not 12 times Fiery Bolt: The Curse-Synergy of this power should now be based off the target it hits. Flames of Empowerment: This power now properly improves when buffed by Artifact Off-hand powers.works Immolation Spirits should now correctly deal increased damage to targets affected by Warlock's Curse.works Killing Curse: Damage has increased to 5/10/15/20/25% (up from 3/6/9/12/15%), and now scales with buffs / Power.works Killing Curse: An issue where this feat was dealing less damage than intended has been addressed. Lesser Curse now keeps its tick timer when replaced. (Example: If it dealt damage 1.0 seconds ago, and a warlock re-applies it, it will deal damage 0.5 seconds from now instead of 1.5 seconds from now.)misses the 4th proc most of the time on preview, somehow poor dps increase for an aoe classmechanic imo Murderous Flames: The damage dealt by this power is no longer doubly reduced by level differences between the player and enemy.on boss Dummy lev73 it´s less than 30% from the inital hit from KF, intended? Pillar of Power can now critically strike. dps looks nice so far, but procs Critical promise once same as Feytouched proc once, intended? And if so why is a CW a multiproc machine on aoe then, same as a GWF with his At Wills? Warlock need compensation for aoe, his tools are encounter/Dailies so make them work with his procs/feats/enchants, would be logical Pillar of Power: This now grants half of its normal buff value to allies who stand in it. Power of the Nine Hells: This no longer increases Pillar of Power's buff value for allies. Soul Bonding: Allies now deal 20% increased damage to targets affected by your Warlock's Curse. Soul Scorch: The total damage dealt by the DoT portion of this power should now match the initial hit.works Tyrannical Curse now increases damage by 25%, increased from 20%.works Tyrannical Curse no longer has reduced effectiveness against level 73 enemies. not sure if that´s correct. WC and TC don´t stack. WC is a 20% damagebuff, TC a 25% debuff. Brutal curse buffs the 20% from WC upwards to a 30% and adds 10% towards the debuff from TC. TC loses allways effectivenss in the long rund especially in a buffer group, dps on TC´d targets is higher solo and lower in a group Tyrannical Curse: The damage done from this power should now correctly scale with Armor Penetration. Vampiric Embrace: When consuming a Curse, this power now properly provides Temporary HP.works, question, is the tempbuff capped? Not that I wanted to tank anything with this underperfoming buff, but maybe you could think about a group beenfit from this encounter? Wraith's Shadow should now correctly deal increased damage to targets affected by Warlock's Curse.
[...] Murderous Flames: The damage dealt by this power is no longer doubly reduced by level differences between the player and enemy.on boss Dummy lev73 it´s >30% from the inital hit from KF, intended?
As far as I have tested it does 30% damage of the final damage the target receives, so it looks correct to me.
By the way, Tyrannical curse has no damage link effect when the target is a Tyrannosaur/T-Rex/KoS. So probably the new Zombie KoS will be bugger too.
I have been testing Hellbringer Fury killing many TRex mostly to compare old Ownbear+PP with new changes and I do between 15-21% more damage, so the owlbear "compensation" looks fine. Obviously this is solo+companion, so the power share + buff + debuffs from a party has not been taken into consideration.
My results show MF being a smaller number in allmost every constellation, the aoe effect is not like 30%, more something lie 20-26% solo on lev 73 elite or boss, sometimes far worse, maybe need more testing.
Yesterday test damnation build and spirit fire represent around 3% of damage parting blasphemy less 1% and critical promise 1% on ACT. I think the balance wanted dont make it those feats weapon damage if even scale with power/buffs dont seems enought strong for competitive with sw fury or other dps class. May be Fury still one tree for make dps but can competive with others class dps ? GWF have feat Tier 1 give bleed damage equal a 20% from you power, GF have a feat jagged blades do 750% weapon damage on crit hit, HR have a feat do 200% weapon damage and 450% weapon damge a target immune to control I dont think sw was balanced with this changes and i wish sw really have 2 tree for make dps viable like HR he can choice trapper or combat and both are good choices
@darkan#3756 1% ? Sounds like “meaningfull and hard hitting changes" to me For furylock CP is also not that promising 2% but Killing Curse is doing better, did not check it in a grouprun though. In the end you you have to chose between Killing Curse, MF or Helltouched or drop PotnH for it wich is no good trade imo. I guess CP is missing something in scaling with buffs, since it's far worse than KC. But to reach other striker we are miles away with those buffs in the DPS tree for sure.
> @balanced#2849 said: > So 10 posts since I put up the summary of all changes and they are the same old "looks good" and "looks bad" posts. > > How about waiting for the module to go up and then actually testing stuff to see what actually happened? > > Given the 27 Feb deadline for releasing the module, preview has to go live in the next week, then we will all know what is happening. > > Also board admins would it be possible to get a new clean thread for discussion after Mod 13 goes live? > This is 20 pages long already and we haven't been able to do the testing yet. > > Just wanted to pop in here to make a quick announcement on this. Barring any major problems, Module 13 should up on preview tonight! This means that all of these changes, including the bug fixes, should be available to players. > > As for a new discussion - I would prefer to just continue off of this page, however, if there is an influx of feedback, or if it becomes confusing/tedious to navigate through 20+ pages, I will consider making a new thread. > > That said, I'm excited for all of you to get your hands on these changes and will be continuing to read/address feedback. I will be periodically checking in over the weekend, so if there's anything confusing that you need answered, I'll hopefully be able to clear up any confusion. > > Note: Eldritch Momentum is still in its pre-feedback state, so that is likely to change in the next couple of weeks.
Could u take a look into our damage increasing feats and abilities and making them buffs instead? With the diminishing returns on debuffs(the majority except our pillar of power or soul sparks) makes it so that we are further handicap, between cast times and cursing and applying lesser curse we then have to deal with dots for our damage to build, competitively sw are the slow bunch. Self buffs could help alot considering we wouldnt be as slow to start, less ticks but more damage would be nice on all abilities to help with our dot encounters tbh. Killing flames shouldnt be hp based, having an encounter that hits hard should be used throughout the fight it was a cool idea but not as practical in the current state of the game
@schietindebux also i think have strange the maximun damage do for parting blasphemy was 13370 and maximun damage do for spirit fire was 11225 how its posible if spirit fire its 75% damage weapon and parting plasphemy its just 50% if both scale with power/buffs spirit fire should do more damage ? https://imgur.com/a/UFnlG
Pretty happy with the changes so far. It will be a nice add helping to close the gap between GWF and SW on single target. However, i don't think it will change much on fast trashes. I'm eagerly waiting for MF affecting all fire powers to solve this !
On the good side :
Killing Curse's damages are great ! Nice up.
PoP Critting is doing really nice damages, as i thought. Marvelous for HB !
BoH proccing Creeping Death is soooo nice !
MF is finally working ! Not a big deal but still appreciable.
GoH proccing Creeping Death will help a little bit on thrashes. Good point.
Soul Bonding buff is really incredible ! I believe Templock will be relevant thanks to this !
On the bad side :
SB wasn't in a good spot, reserved for a selfish gameplay but is now completely irrelevant ! PoP critting and buffing Killing Curse is now making HB do more dps even on single target. You have to make SS a Curse Synergy if you want people to play it.
Critical Promise deals less than 1% of my total damages (even less than Lesser Curse !). You could easily revert the pre-release nerf and make it deal 50% weapon damage. 2% more dps won't break the game but are really needed !
Lesser Curse still deals miserable damages. You could easily double its dps. Once again, 2% more dps won't be bad for anyone !
With PotNH now being useless (yeah, despite some people saying it, casting PoP on a place where the whole team can stay in isn't hard), Templock has 10 free points but no really good feat to get.
Eldritch momentum is HAMSTER. We already give CA (NPNM) so we need it to give flat damage buff or cooldown reduction.
Damnation is still useless but i already gave suggestions that seemed to be ignored. Anyway, if we can get 2 of the 3 trees viable, i'm happy with that !
@tenetomb are you sure that with PoP buffing Brutal Curse HB deals more damage than SB? Not like SB was that ahead of HB in terms of damage but sounds like too much of a dps increase tl be true. Are you used to run SB? Perhaps you run HB mostly there can squeeze more dps from it that you can with SB?
@jaime4312#3760 I'll test again after each patch to be completely sure but i've already done lots of tests and yes, HB got better results than SB, in every test with every movepool. And no, that's actually the opposite. I've always played SB because i'm used to play as the only dps. So, i know this path more than HB. But anyway, HB isn't hard to play at all. ^^ An yes, it surprised me at first (considering SB also got fixes). But that's what ACT shows !
> @tenetomb said: > @jaime4312#3760 I'll test again after each patch to be completely sure but i've already done lots of tests and yes, HB got better results than SB, in every test with every movepool. > And no, that's actually the opposite. I've always played SB because i'm used to play as the only dps. So, i know this path more than HB. But anyway, HB isn't hard to play at all. ^^ > An yes, it surprised me at first (considering SB also got fixes). But that's what ACT shows !
PoP needs to give allies 75% of its buff value to match what it does on live now, we talked about it on this thread and can be seen on page #5 and your patchnotes on page #1
Mod 13 PoP got nerfed in that regard as will give only 50% of its buff value, it is in the patch notes in that official thread.
Please address that otherwise PoP buff will get a 6% nerf to its buffing to allies.
@jaime4312#3760 I'll test again after each patch to be completely sure but i've already done lots of tests and yes, HB got better results than SB, in every test with every movepool. And no, that's actually the opposite. I've always played SB because i'm used to play as the only dps. So, i know this path more than HB. But anyway, HB isn't hard to play at all. ^^ An yes, it surprised me at first (considering SB also got fixes). But that's what ACT shows !
That makes some sense seeing as there were no real buffs to SB theyd only benefit from CD being buffed and MF. maybe TT. on top of that they only made soul scorch to WAI no real buffs there either from what ive read just alot of stuff now WAI.
This may be a silly question, but for the Temptation tree - When the tooltips say "nearby allies," does that also mean you yourself also benefit from the effect as well as nearby allies, or does this not include yourself? Thanks!
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
Pretty happy with the changes so far. It will be a nice add helping to close the gap between GWF and SW on single target. However, i don't think it will change much on fast trashes. I'm eagerly waiting for MF affecting all fire powers to solve this !
On the good side :
Killing Curse's damages are great ! Nice up.
PoP Critting is doing really nice damages, as i thought. Marvelous for HB !
BoH proccing Creeping Death is soooo nice !
MF is finally working ! Not a big deal but still appreciable.
GoH proccing Creeping Death will help a little bit on thrashes. Good point.
Soul Bonding buff is really incredible ! I believe Templock will be relevant thanks to this !
On the bad side :
SB wasn't in a good spot, reserved for a selfish gameplay but is now completely irrelevant ! PoP critting and buffing Killing Curse is now making HB do more dps even on single target. You have to make SS a Curse Synergy if you want people to play it.
Critical Promise deals less than 1% of my total damages (even less than Lesser Curse !). You could easily revert the pre-release nerf and make it deal 50% weapon damage. 2% more dps won't break the game but are really needed !
Lesser Curse still deals miserable damages. You could easily double its dps. Once again, 2% more dps won't be bad for anyone !
With PotNH now being useless (yeah, despite some people saying it, casting PoP on a place where the whole team can stay in isn't hard), Templock has 10 free points but no really good feat to get.
Eldritch momentum is HAMSTER. We already give CA (NPNM) so we need it to give flat damage buff or cooldown reduction.
Damnation is still useless but i already gave suggestions that seemed to be ignored. Anyway, if we can get 2 of the 3 trees viable, i'm happy with that !
no pity no mercy ca part apply for the sw not for the entire party.
For build, nothing special. I never bothered about playing PotNH. It's a really bad feat imho (except on mod 11b where it was buffing PoP's effect) :
SB or HB builds are the same. Just take the different parangon feat.
Setups :
HB : AoE : KF, FB, PoP, TC / GoH (when mobs die too fast) Single : KF, WB, PoP, BoH Enchant : Vorpal
SB : AoE : KF, FB, SS / AoH (same), TC / Acc Souls (same) (not really well performing but anyway, don't really have the choice) Single : KF, BoVA, SS, IS Enchant : Dread
I also tried KF, HG, SS, BoH / IS with Feytouched or even BoH instead of IS with Dread on single target but didn't perform really well. Then i tried TC with every setup and didn't do very well either... Tested DT on aoe and it's still bad (except for debuff).
I'm going to leave the detailed analysis to those who are more knowledgeable of the details of the game and class.
However today I loaded up my SW, fixed her Damnation spec and then went and poked around in some content. Overall this seems to be working well enough. I had no troubles (13k on Preview) working my way through Omu with the build and things seemed fine.
Then I switched to my Temptation build, exactly as I have it on live. On live my Damnation spec has better damage (apparent in dungeons) and is generally better at clearing content. With no changes to the Temptation spec, (running the same powers on both) the difference between the Temptation spec and the Damnation was stark. The Temptation readily outperformed the Damnation now.
So I'm pretty happy with where my SW is headed.
That said for Damnation I notice 2 problems; firstly the Soul Puppet's healing is very bad it would be greatly improved if at the end of an encounter it returned to full health. (It need not resummon.) In addition to this powers that "summon a soul puppet" when used would also be much better for Damnation if they fully healed the Soul Puppet on use if summoned already.
Further to this, powers such as Killing Curse, Wraith's Shadow and Accursed Souls cannot summon a Soul Puppet if one has been destroyed (ie while waiting the 15s for the auto-resummon).
On the subject of Accursed Souls, this power is lack luster, but has the potential to be great with a boost to the damage it does. The fact it applies Lesser Curse does not make up for the damage it looses.
Which comes back to the larger SW problem; damage applied through small tics. Its not the class doesn't have the potential to do a lot of damage, its just that it doesn't have the time to do much damage. Perhaps some improvement could be made by looking at the damage from the curses?
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
@darkan#3756 I think it is the same topic with Critical Promise. Killing Curse profits from all buffs and is far beyond, CP and obviously Spirit Fire do not scale the same way KC does. MAybe @balanced#2849 can help to investigate that issue, the dps buff really is needed to close the gap wich still is not to deny.
@tenetomb I would put it this way. My Soulbinder in a party with other striker is closer to their dps than my Hellbringer is, since he does not share buffs (PoP) and only profits from otherone buffs. In a party made of HB+SB + 3 supporter that SB will be ahaed in terms of focus damage, since he profits from PoP. The overall performance of a party with a HB setup is far better than with a SB. A testrun with 1x SB and 1x HB on a bossfight should help to get this clear, but that SB should stay out of PoP all time otherwise it´s hard to tell. That´s what otherones allready checked in the past and SB took the crown, but the results differed somehow. Soul Scorch DOT is now 100% from 80%. All in all I also definitely think HB is the better pick, since an overall 10% debuff, 24/18% dps and DR-buff and the fact that Soul Scorch DOT does not benefit from KC, LC, weaponprocs etc. weakens SB , but I am not 100% sure HB will out dps a SB in a direct matchup, tbh I think SB will deal better focus dps. Every Soul Scorch is a high dps encounter ticking for another 100% DoT. A Feytouched with a HG+SoulSc+KF is my favorite, after trading my T Dread vs a T Elven... (what a bad idea) About PoP, I think PotnH is the feat to go for til mod 12b, a 18% dps buff for your group is not to miss,
I would need to try your setups which are similar to the ones I run except your SB aoe, perhaps it's because I'm too used to mine but that one of yours looks like would have lower sparks generation overall.
I second what @schietindebux stated, in focus damage, at least in t3 content, SB should deal more damage than HB.
I disagree on your comment that po9h is useless, it makes PoP buff uptime more consistent and buffs allies for more.
Anyway, guys and @balanced#2849 please check mod 13 patch notes on anouncements section, PoP is getting is buff to allies nerfed. Balanced, in order to buff allies as much current version in lived does with Po9H, PoP needs to give alloes 75% of its buff value (75% of 24= 18) and you corrected that on the patchnotes of this very same thread on pages #5 and 1# so why did that not made it to mod 13 patchnotes? They state PoP will give allies 50% of its buff value (50% of 24= 12) so PoP will buff allies by 6% less unless @terramak or you fix that, do please, nerfing SW abiloty to buff allies is quite a letdown and definitely not good for the class, being able to buff team dps (I know there are other ways to increase damage but PoP is our only buff as fury spec), even if with a mediocre 18% often is what get us invited to endgame content.
@jaime4312#3760 Yes, this rotation doesn't generate a lot of sparks but i only play like this when there is an other HB SW with me and we're running through the thrashes. In this case, i only need to fill my bar once. Then it never goes down !
@schietindebux Obviously, if you take 2 SW, i think SB will take the advantage but it's already a rare situation. Maybe will it change with the Templock buff. In this case, on bosses, SB will deal the best dps. But it still needs tests because now that PoP does a great dps, it's not auto win for SB !
And about PoP actually, as i said, i'm used to play as the only dps so, PotNH is a really bad choice for me. I run full dps ! (And casting PoP in the best place to ensure 100% uptime is possible. Then, you don't need PotNH anymore !)
I would need to try your setups which are similar to the ones I run except your SB aoe, perhaps it's because I'm too used to mine but that one of yours looks like would have lower sparks generation overall.
I second what @schietindebux stated, in focus damage, at least in t3 content, SB should deal more damage than HB.
I disagree on your comment that po9h is useless, it makes PoP buff uptime more consistent and buffs allies for more.
Anyway, guys and @balanced#2849 please check mod 13 patch notes on anouncements section, PoP is getting is buff to allies nerfed. Balanced, in order to buff allies as much current version in lived does with Po9H, PoP needs to give alloes 75% of its buff value (75% of 24= 18) and you corrected that on the patchnotes of this very same thread on pages #5 and 1# so why did that not made it to mod 13 patchnotes? They state PoP will give allies 50% of its buff value (50% of 24= 12) so PoP will buff allies by 6% less unless @terramak or you fix that, do please, nerfing SW abiloty to buff allies is quite a letdown and definitely not good for the class, being able to buff team dps (I know there are other ways to increase damage but PoP is our only buff as fury spec), even if with a mediocre 18% often is what get us invited to endgame content.
@jaime4312#3760 Thnx for catching on to that. It might have gone live if nobody said anything.
@tenetomb Ive been told even in 12b that u wont miss out on much if u sub potnh for something else like dark revelry for example or spend those points into fury.
In my opinion the absolute biggest and greatest change you could make for Temptation Warlocks is to make Compounded Soul actually viable.
Temptation healing is already through the roof and in a game that does not rely on percentage based enemy damage it is far, FAR more than we could ever need.
What Temptations need is someway to give the squishy DPS classes a cushion. In its current state Compounded Soul is an absolute joke of a feat and is a relic of early Mods. Even before Chult a basic mob enemy could spit on one of your allies and take the over shield out. We can already keep a bad Tank or Healadin alive with 0 issues just please, I am begging you give us some way to prevent allies from getting one-shot. Both DC's and Paladins have some form of temporary large damage reduction or group overshield. Just toss Temptation Warlocks a bone and give us something similar.
PoP needs to give allies 75% of its buff value to match what it does on live now, we talked about it on this thread and can be seen on page #5 and your patchnotes on page #1
Mod 13 PoP got nerfed in that regard as will give only 50% of its buff value, it is in the patch notes in that official thread.
Please address that otherwise PoP buff will get a 6% nerf to its buffing to allies.
Hey everyone,
I'm pretty sure this is just a patch note error, I remember changing the baseline value of PoP to 75% after originally hearing about this. I'll make sure that change is in, tomorrow, and then sync up with the team to get the patch notes updated - if that's the case.
Please consider taking a look a SW specific problems: - Very long casting times. - Dot damage (both from powers and procs like Creeping Death) needs far too much time to deal full damage and in endgame teams are able to 1 rotate bosses even in t9g (not exaggerating and there's evidence about it), SW is helpless there. - Lower proc rates than other strikers (like Aura of Courage or some class feats) - Lower damage potential than other classes. - Killing Flames min damage value is hardcore low and reaches max damage potential (that's not even that good) when enemies are almost dead, it literary is (out of the "hard hitting" encounters from all classes) the most limited and inconsistent encounter power. On top of that, casting speed is very slow. - Passive powers are horribly underpowerd or flat out worthless, a few of them look like are they aren't of a dps class.
I appreciate the feedback and I think this hits a lot of the core problems with SW at the moment.
Long cast times have been a problem for the SW since launch, from what I've seen. Something that has always bugged me with SW powers is the long follow-through at the end of a power. (Ex. The final 0.5 seconds of killing flames where you're locked in place). I think making those a bit shorter and adjusting some of the really long anims, such as Gates of Hell, will definitely make the class feel a lot smoother. That said, animation times are something that require a bit more time than simple numeric changes - so changes on this won't be making it into M13, but it is on my radar for the future.
DoT damage is something that really fits the theme of Scourge Warlock and curses, and I think that's okay for gameplay. The real problem here is that bosses can be killed in a couple of seconds because power creep has come a long way and buff/debuff stacking has become the meta. I could see changing the DoT timer of Creeping Death to once a second instead of once every 1.5 seconds, but I don't think changing the capstone to just be direct damage is a good solution. That said, I would like to see SW get a direct damage option in the future and that might be where Damnation steps in (we'll see).
For the lower proc rate, I believe this is just due to the slow cast times of SW. In theory, all of their powers should proc things like Aura of Courage just as much as another class. If I'm mistaken, an example would really help here as it could be a problem with a specific power.
Killing flames gets up to 2.5x the damage, maybe the variance on that is too high? It's something I can investigate, but comparing it to a target that is at ~66% life - it should still hit pretty hard in comparison to other powers.
Passive powers, especially ones that relate to Soul Sparks, are pretty weak for SW. It's definitely something I can see looking at in future modules - Giving SW a couple of damage buffs through these would help them a lot.
I do want to re-iterate that M13 is close enough to release that large, sweeping, changes won't be making it into the launch patch, but I will be using this feedback for future changes and will try to get in any crucial tweaks that I can.
I think it is the same topic with Critical Promise. Killing Curse profits from all buffs and is far beyond, CP and obviously Spirit Fire do not scale the same way KC does.
MAybe @balanced#2849 can help to investigate that issue, the dps buff really is needed to close the gap wich still is not to deny.
I'll take a look at both of these tomorrow, when I get back to my desk. It would be weird if they didn't scale the same way, but it's totally plausible that something isn't working correctly. It could be that Killing Curse procs on every attack that you do, so powers like "Dreadtheft" will proc it a ton, whereas Spirit Fire prcos at a steady rate of once a second. If the damage numbers themselves are completely off - then something is probably wrong.
I have a suggest for feat parting plasphemy. I think is better instead trigger with curse cunsume (in HB only have wrath shadow and vampiric) apply on curse synergy this way damnlocks can use dreadtheft for debuff and damage lost (for not its a encounter for make dps) will compense with multiples triggers from parting plasphemy. The feat power of the nine hells i feel is very bad see that like empity add one effect may be soul puppet do x% more damage while stand up on and x% increase damage foes while stand up inside (probably need enlarge a bit pilar of power for performed interaction with that effect) And last the soulpuppet struck too much in terrain asymetric in dungeons like Msp and ETOS if even solo content in chult. Can make teleport from near enemys and on single bosess still lost staks soul investure too mouch in feat soul desecretion can make gain soul investure on curse synergy also kill enemys cursed ?
Comments
How about waiting for the module to go up and then actually testing stuff to see what actually happened?
Given the 27 Feb deadline for releasing the module, preview has to go live in the next week, then we will all know what is happening.
Also board admins would it be possible to get a new clean thread for discussion after Mod 13 goes live?
This is 20 pages long already and we haven't been able to do the testing yet.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
As for a new discussion - I would prefer to just continue off of this page, however, if there is an influx of feedback, or if it becomes confusing/tedious to navigate through 20+ pages, I will consider making a new thread.
That said, I'm excited for all of you to get your hands on these changes and will be continuing to read/address feedback. I will be periodically checking in over the weekend, so if there's anything confusing that you need answered, I'll hopefully be able to clear up any confusion.
Note: Eldritch Momentum is still in its pre-feedback state, so that is likely to change in the next couple of weeks.
Please consider taking a look a SW specific problems:
- Very long casting times.
- Dot damage (both from powers and procs like Creeping Death) needs far too much time to deal full damage and in endgame teams are able to 1 rotate bosses even in t9g (not exaggerating and there's evidence about it), SW is helpless there.
- Lower proc rates than other strikers (like Aura of Courage or some class feats)
- Lower damage potential than other classes.
- Killing Flames min damage value is hardcore low and reaches max damage potential (that's not even that good) when enemies are almost dead, it literary is (out of the "hard hitting" encounters from all classes) the most limited and inconsistent encounter power. On top of that, casting speed is very slow.
- Passive powers are horribly underpowerd or flat out worthless, a few of them look like are they aren't of a dps class.
Brood of Hadar: All ticks of this power now properly apply Creeping Death. fine so far
Brutal Curse now increases Tyrannical Curse's damage debuff by 2/4/6/8/10%, in addition to Warlock Curse. as far as I can say it´s working, debuff+10%, dps buff for WC works also
Creeping Death: Damage has been increased to 75% (up from 60%).fine
Critical Promise: Damage has been reduced to 4/8/12/16/20% (down from 10/20/30/40/50%), but now scales with buffs / Power.damage too low, compared to Killing Curse, some buffs do not work (powerscaling?)
Daughter's Promise: The damage dealt from this power now scales with power/buffs.
Dreadtheft: This power has been updated. It now ticks twice per second, lasts up to 6 seconds, and its damage per tick has been significantly increased. fine so far
Dreadtheft now procs weapon enchantments on every tick.procs all WE except fire and plague once and not 12 times
Fiery Bolt: The Curse-Synergy of this power should now be based off the target it hits.
Flames of Empowerment: This power now properly improves when buffed by Artifact Off-hand powers.works
Immolation Spirits should now correctly deal increased damage to targets affected by Warlock's Curse.works
Killing Curse: Damage has increased to 5/10/15/20/25% (up from 3/6/9/12/15%), and now scales with buffs / Power.works
Killing Curse: An issue where this feat was dealing less damage than intended has been addressed.
Lesser Curse now keeps its tick timer when replaced. (Example: If it dealt damage 1.0 seconds ago, and a warlock re-applies it, it will deal damage 0.5 seconds from now instead of 1.5 seconds from now.)misses the 4th proc most of the time on preview, somehow poor dps increase for an aoe classmechanic imo
Murderous Flames: The damage dealt by this power is no longer doubly reduced by level differences between the player and enemy.on boss Dummy lev73 it´s less than 30% from the inital hit from KF, intended?
Pillar of Power can now critically strike. dps looks nice so far, but procs Critical promise once same as Feytouched proc once, intended? And if so why is a CW a multiproc machine on aoe then, same as a GWF with his At Wills? Warlock need compensation for aoe, his tools are encounter/Dailies so make them work with his procs/feats/enchants, would be logical
Pillar of Power: This now grants half of its normal buff value to allies who stand in it.
Power of the Nine Hells: This no longer increases Pillar of Power's buff value for allies.
Soul Bonding: Allies now deal 20% increased damage to targets affected by your Warlock's Curse.
Soul Scorch: The total damage dealt by the DoT portion of this power should now match the initial hit.works
Tyrannical Curse now increases damage by 25%, increased from 20%.works
Tyrannical Curse no longer has reduced effectiveness against level 73 enemies.
not sure if that´s correct. WC and TC don´t stack. WC is a 20% damagebuff, TC a 25% debuff. Brutal curse buffs the 20% from WC upwards to a 30% and adds 10% towards the debuff from TC. TC loses allways effectivenss in the long rund especially in a buffer group, dps on TC´d targets is higher solo and lower in a group
Tyrannical Curse: The damage done from this power should now correctly scale with Armor Penetration.
Vampiric Embrace: When consuming a Curse, this power now properly provides Temporary HP.works, question, is the tempbuff capped? Not that I wanted to tank anything with this underperfoming buff, but maybe you could think about a group beenfit from this encounter?
Wraith's Shadow should now correctly deal increased damage to targets affected by Warlock's Curse.
By the way, Tyrannical curse has no damage link effect when the target is a Tyrannosaur/T-Rex/KoS. So probably the new Zombie KoS will be bugger too.
I have been testing Hellbringer Fury killing many TRex mostly to compare old Ownbear+PP with new changes and I do between 15-21% more damage, so the owlbear "compensation" looks fine.
Obviously this is solo+companion, so the power share + buff + debuffs from a party has not been taken into consideration.
1% ? Sounds like “meaningfull and hard hitting changes" to me
For furylock CP is also not that promising 2% but Killing Curse is doing better, did not check it in a grouprun though.
In the end you you have to chose between Killing Curse, MF or Helltouched or drop PotnH for it wich is no good trade imo.
I guess CP is missing something in scaling with buffs, since it's far worse than KC.
But to reach other striker we are miles away with those buffs in the DPS tree for sure.
> So 10 posts since I put up the summary of all changes and they are the same old "looks good" and "looks bad" posts.
>
> How about waiting for the module to go up and then actually testing stuff to see what actually happened?
>
> Given the 27 Feb deadline for releasing the module, preview has to go live in the next week, then we will all know what is happening.
>
> Also board admins would it be possible to get a new clean thread for discussion after Mod 13 goes live?
> This is 20 pages long already and we haven't been able to do the testing yet.
>
> Just wanted to pop in here to make a quick announcement on this. Barring any major problems, Module 13 should up on preview tonight! This means that all of these changes, including the bug fixes, should be available to players.
>
> As for a new discussion - I would prefer to just continue off of this page, however, if there is an influx of feedback, or if it becomes confusing/tedious to navigate through 20+ pages, I will consider making a new thread.
>
> That said, I'm excited for all of you to get your hands on these changes and will be continuing to read/address feedback. I will be periodically checking in over the weekend, so if there's anything confusing that you need answered, I'll hopefully be able to clear up any confusion.
>
> Note: Eldritch Momentum is still in its pre-feedback state, so that is likely to change in the next couple of weeks.
Could u take a look into our damage increasing feats and abilities and making them buffs instead? With the diminishing returns on debuffs(the majority except our pillar of power or soul sparks) makes it so that we are further handicap, between cast times and cursing and applying lesser curse we then have to deal with dots for our damage to build, competitively sw are the slow bunch. Self buffs could help alot considering we wouldnt be as slow to start, less ticks but more damage would be nice on all abilities to help with our dot encounters tbh. Killing flames shouldnt be hp based, having an encounter that hits hard should be used throughout the fight it was a cool idea but not as practical in the current state of the game
On the good side :
- Killing Curse's damages are great ! Nice up.
- PoP Critting is doing really nice damages, as i thought. Marvelous for HB !
- BoH proccing Creeping Death is soooo nice !
- MF is finally working ! Not a big deal but still appreciable.
- GoH proccing Creeping Death will help a little bit on thrashes. Good point.
- Soul Bonding buff is really incredible ! I believe Templock will be relevant thanks to this !
On the bad side :PoP critting and buffing Killing Curse is now making HB do more dps even on single target. You have to make SS a Curse Synergy if you want people to play it.
And no, that's actually the opposite. I've always played SB because i'm used to play as the only dps. So, i know this path more than HB. But anyway, HB isn't hard to play at all. ^^
An yes, it surprised me at first (considering SB also got fixes). But that's what ACT shows !
> @jaime4312#3760 I'll test again after each patch to be completely sure but i've already done lots of tests and yes, HB got better results than SB, in every test with every movepool.
> And no, that's actually the opposite. I've always played SB because i'm used to play as the only dps. So, i know this path more than HB. But anyway, HB isn't hard to play at all. ^^
> An yes, it surprised me at first (considering SB also got fixes). But that's what ACT shows !
@tenetomb
That's interesting, may I ask what rotation and build you used for both? What enchantment for each loadout?
PoP needs to give allies 75% of its buff value to match what it does on live now, we talked about it on this thread and can be seen on page #5 and your patchnotes on page #1
Mod 13 PoP got nerfed in that regard as will give only 50% of its buff value, it is in the patch notes in that official thread.
Please address that otherwise PoP buff will get a 6% nerf to its buffing to allies.
SB or HB builds are the same. Just take the different parangon feat.
Setups :
HB : AoE : KF, FB, PoP, TC / GoH (when mobs die too fast)
Single : KF, WB, PoP, BoH
Enchant : Vorpal
SB : AoE : KF, FB, SS / AoH (same), TC / Acc Souls (same) (not really well performing but anyway, don't really have the choice)
Single : KF, BoVA, SS, IS
Enchant : Dread
I also tried KF, HG, SS, BoH / IS with Feytouched or even BoH instead of IS with Dread on single target but didn't perform really well.
Then i tried TC with every setup and didn't do very well either...
Tested DT on aoe and it's still bad (except for debuff).
Actually, nothing changed in the gameplay !
However today I loaded up my SW, fixed her Damnation spec and then went and poked around in some content. Overall this seems to be working well enough. I had no troubles (13k on Preview) working my way through Omu with the build and things seemed fine.
Then I switched to my Temptation build, exactly as I have it on live. On live my Damnation spec has better damage (apparent in dungeons) and is generally better at clearing content. With no changes to the Temptation spec, (running the same powers on both) the difference between the Temptation spec and the Damnation was stark. The Temptation readily outperformed the Damnation now.
So I'm pretty happy with where my SW is headed.
That said for Damnation I notice 2 problems; firstly the Soul Puppet's healing is very bad it would be greatly improved if at the end of an encounter it returned to full health. (It need not resummon.) In addition to this powers that "summon a soul puppet" when used would also be much better for Damnation if they fully healed the Soul Puppet on use if summoned already.
Further to this, powers such as Killing Curse, Wraith's Shadow and Accursed Souls cannot summon a Soul Puppet if one has been destroyed (ie while waiting the 15s for the auto-resummon).
On the subject of Accursed Souls, this power is lack luster, but has the potential to be great with a boost to the damage it does. The fact it applies Lesser Curse does not make up for the damage it looses.
Which comes back to the larger SW problem; damage applied through small tics. Its not the class doesn't have the potential to do a lot of damage, its just that it doesn't have the time to do much damage. Perhaps some improvement could be made by looking at the damage from the curses?
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
@darkan#3756
I think it is the same topic with Critical Promise. Killing Curse profits from all buffs and is far beyond, CP and obviously Spirit Fire do not scale the same way KC does.
MAybe @balanced#2849 can help to investigate that issue, the dps buff really is needed to close the gap wich still is not to deny.
@tenetomb
I would put it this way.
My Soulbinder in a party with other striker is closer to their dps than my Hellbringer is, since he does not share buffs (PoP) and only profits from otherone buffs.
In a party made of HB+SB + 3 supporter that SB will be ahaed in terms of focus damage, since he profits from PoP.
The overall performance of a party with a HB setup is far better than with a SB.
A testrun with 1x SB and 1x HB on a bossfight should help to get this clear, but that SB should stay out of PoP all time otherwise it´s hard to tell.
That´s what otherones allready checked in the past and SB took the crown, but the results differed somehow. Soul Scorch DOT is now 100% from 80%.
All in all I also definitely think HB is the better pick, since an overall 10% debuff, 24/18% dps and DR-buff and the fact that Soul Scorch DOT does not benefit from KC, LC, weaponprocs etc. weakens SB , but I am not 100% sure HB will out dps a SB in a direct matchup, tbh I think SB will deal better focus dps.
Every Soul Scorch is a high dps encounter ticking for another 100% DoT. A Feytouched with a HG+SoulSc+KF is my favorite, after trading my T Dread vs a T Elven... (what a bad idea)
About PoP, I think PotnH is the feat to go for til mod 12b, a 18% dps buff for your group is not to miss,
I would need to try your setups which are similar to the ones I run except your SB aoe, perhaps it's because I'm too used to mine but that one of yours looks like would have lower sparks generation overall.
I second what @schietindebux stated, in focus damage, at least in t3 content, SB should deal more damage than HB.
I disagree on your comment that po9h is useless, it makes PoP buff uptime more consistent and buffs allies for more.
Anyway, guys and @balanced#2849 please check mod 13 patch notes on anouncements section, PoP is getting is buff to allies nerfed. Balanced, in order to buff allies as much current version in lived does with Po9H, PoP needs to give alloes 75% of its buff value (75% of 24= 18) and you corrected that on the patchnotes of this very same thread on pages #5 and 1# so why did that not made it to mod 13 patchnotes? They state PoP will give allies 50% of its buff value (50% of 24= 12) so PoP will buff allies by 6% less unless @terramak or you fix that, do please, nerfing SW abiloty to buff allies is quite a letdown and definitely not good for the class, being able to buff team dps (I know there are other ways to increase damage but PoP is our only buff as fury spec), even if with a mediocre 18% often is what get us invited to endgame content.
@schietindebux Obviously, if you take 2 SW, i think SB will take the advantage but it's already a rare situation. Maybe will it change with the Templock buff. In this case, on bosses, SB will deal the best dps.
But it still needs tests because now that PoP does a great dps, it's not auto win for SB !
And about PoP actually, as i said, i'm used to play as the only dps so, PotNH is a really bad choice for me. I run full dps ! (And casting PoP in the best place to ensure 100% uptime is possible. Then, you don't need PotNH anymore !)
@tenetomb Ive been told even in 12b that u wont miss out on much if u sub potnh for something else like dark revelry for example or spend those points into fury.
Temptation healing is already through the roof and in a game that does not rely on percentage based enemy damage it is far, FAR more than we could ever need.
What Temptations need is someway to give the squishy DPS classes a cushion. In its current state Compounded Soul is an absolute joke of a feat and is a relic of early Mods. Even before Chult a basic mob enemy could spit on one of your allies and take the over shield out.
We can already keep a bad Tank or Healadin alive with 0 issues just please, I am begging you give us some way to prevent allies from getting one-shot. Both DC's and Paladins have some form of temporary large damage reduction or group overshield. Just toss Temptation Warlocks a bone and give us something similar.
I'm pretty sure this is just a patch note error, I remember changing the baseline value of PoP to 75% after originally hearing about this. I'll make sure that change is in, tomorrow, and then sync up with the team to get the patch notes updated - if that's the case.
Thanks for the callout @jaime4312#3760
Long cast times have been a problem for the SW since launch, from what I've seen. Something that has always bugged me with SW powers is the long follow-through at the end of a power. (Ex. The final 0.5 seconds of killing flames where you're locked in place). I think making those a bit shorter and adjusting some of the really long anims, such as Gates of Hell, will definitely make the class feel a lot smoother. That said, animation times are something that require a bit more time than simple numeric changes - so changes on this won't be making it into M13, but it is on my radar for the future.
DoT damage is something that really fits the theme of Scourge Warlock and curses, and I think that's okay for gameplay. The real problem here is that bosses can be killed in a couple of seconds because power creep has come a long way and buff/debuff stacking has become the meta. I could see changing the DoT timer of Creeping Death to once a second instead of once every 1.5 seconds, but I don't think changing the capstone to just be direct damage is a good solution. That said, I would like to see SW get a direct damage option in the future and that might be where Damnation steps in (we'll see).
For the lower proc rate, I believe this is just due to the slow cast times of SW. In theory, all of their powers should proc things like Aura of Courage just as much as another class. If I'm mistaken, an example would really help here as it could be a problem with a specific power.
Killing flames gets up to 2.5x the damage, maybe the variance on that is too high? It's something I can investigate, but comparing it to a target that is at ~66% life - it should still hit pretty hard in comparison to other powers.
Passive powers, especially ones that relate to Soul Sparks, are pretty weak for SW. It's definitely something I can see looking at in future modules - Giving SW a couple of damage buffs through these would help them a lot.
I do want to re-iterate that M13 is close enough to release that large, sweeping, changes won't be making it into the launch patch, but I will be using this feedback for future changes and will try to get in any crucial tweaks that I can.
The feat power of the nine hells i feel is very bad see that like empity add one effect may be soul puppet do x% more damage while stand up on and x% increase damage foes while stand up inside (probably need enlarge a bit pilar of power for performed interaction with that effect)
And last the soulpuppet struck too much in terrain asymetric in dungeons like Msp and ETOS if even solo content in chult. Can make teleport from near enemys and on single bosess still lost staks soul investure too mouch in feat soul desecretion can make gain soul investure on curse synergy also kill enemys cursed ?