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Official Feedback Thread: Bonding Runestone Changes

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  • araneaxaraneax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 639 Arc User
    In discussions, threads grow as users respond to the initial and subsequent posts.
    Replies build on one another to construct a conversation.
    So...after conversing so much i firmly believe this thread requires rainbow text.

    Bonding runstones will still be BIS is what i hear a lot online , inside the game.
    People are finally starting to accept the fact it will change and they started to collect coals and pres wards.
    d7d81448-df6b-48cf-94a0-cf1ba87d861a_zpsish6zr2v.jpg

  • sengir0#3465 sengir0 Member Posts: 54 Arc User
    still one of the highest page count at the feedback where users inputed ideas and got ignored...
  • qexoticqexotic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 841 Arc User
    araneax said:

    In discussions, threads grow as users respond to the initial and subsequent posts.
    Replies build on one another to construct a conversation.
    So...after conversing so much i firmly believe this thread requires rainbow text.

    Bonding runstones will still be BIS is what i hear a lot online , inside the game.
    People are finally starting to accept the fact it will change and they started to collect coals and pres wards.
    Which is fine until Mod12b actually drops and they realise they should have also been collecting huge stacks of GMOPs and SMOPs to cover the increased quantities needed for refining their enchants >:)

  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    edited October 2017

    Online ftp games these days aren't really games anymore. Just a service really.

    People stop playing/paying eventually everything is lost.

    That's why I stopped paying/getting attached to games like these let alone naively think I get to keep my virtual bis weapons/armours/ legendary mounts or what not for forever. Indefinitely would be the word until the trend dies out.

    I had fun really. For 14 months since its launch on PS4. If it goes offline one day I say thank you for the memories.

    This business model is simply a hard pill to swallow.


    I don't mind them increasing enchantment ranks. It is the % odd of actually making it go from a 12 to a 13 and from a 13 to a 14 that is an annoyance. I rather have to grind out extra refinement points if the game got rid of the % odd of improving items.

    Another thought to encourage us to have VIP is that for each rank that is above Rank 7 players get a 2% increase when trying to increase enchantment, artifact, and legendary gear ranks.

    This means item with a 1% chance to process would be 11%.

    Just a thought on how to encourage players to be VIP and maybe help improve the auction house as more higher rank weapons enchant, armor enchant, runestone and gear enchantments would be available due to 1% becoming 11%. We would also see more player at end game due to an increase in odds in favor of the player.

    The thing is though, this won't happen as it would hurt PWE bottome line.

    As for the change to bonding %, that doesn't bother me all that much. I figured something like this would eventually come our way.


  • mightyerikssonmightyeriksson Member Posts: 842 Arc User
    Sooo, now that you are nerfing Bonding stones, and are removing 100% of the transferred stats, (and that's if I do the very expensive upgrade to rank 14), along with raising the need for armor-penetration, you really need to make the Loyal Avenger companion-gear available for console players...

    The earlier excuse that they were overpowered, shouldn't be an issue now that you have nerfed Bonding stones heavily?

    Also, console players should never have been without those items in the first place, because really, how hard is it to insert an item into a loot-table...
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Member Posts: 373 Arc User
    edited October 2017

    Sooo, now that you are nerfing Bonding stones, and are removing 100% of the transferred stats, (and that's if I do the very expensive upgrade to rank 14), along with raising the need for armor-penetration, you really need to make the Loyal Avenger companion-gear available for console players...

    The earlier excuse that they were overpowered, shouldn't be an issue now that you have nerfed Bonding stones heavily?

    Also, console players should never have been without those items in the first place, because really, how hard is it to insert an item into a loot-table...

    Getting console players have Loyal gear sounds good and safe, even now. And for mod12b, it even gets trashier, because the 1 offense slot makes them more unfavorable over SOMI rings or any Slayer ring +5 (except the skyrocket budget necessary to get it) or just Bold/Fierce/Heroic IG +4 stuff.
  • araneaxaraneax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 639 Arc User
    qexotic said:

    araneax said:

    In discussions, threads grow as users respond to the initial and subsequent posts.
    Replies build on one another to construct a conversation.
    So...after conversing so much i firmly believe this thread requires rainbow text.

    Bonding runstones will still be BIS is what i hear a lot online , inside the game.
    People are finally starting to accept the fact it will change and they started to collect coals and pres wards.
    Which is fine until Mod12b actually drops and they realise they should have also been collecting huge stacks of GMOPs and SMOPs to cover the increased quantities needed for refining their enchants >:)

    I did warn em. If they listen fine. If not , fine too. :P
    d7d81448-df6b-48cf-94a0-cf1ba87d861a_zpsish6zr2v.jpg

  • preechr#2215 preechr Member Posts: 488 Arc User
    This is pure speculation, intended to serve as an example in process:
    Problem: The Neverwinter economy, especially on PC, is wildy out of control
    Solution: We need more AD sinks, and since replacing AD sinks that were removed previously just makes it rougher on low and mid level players, new AD sinks should be created that primarily affect the highest level of players with the highest incomes

    Y'know, the 1%

    Process: All the devs and anyone else with a stake in this discussion have a meeting or a series of them to discuss what form such a solution would take, with the hope that, while painful and controversial, the net effect should be positive and long-lasting (while not really changing the game) where the pain would be short-lived and full recoverable

    Many ideas get thrown out for discussion, but at the end of the day the best fit would be to place the new AD sink on top of something nobody in the game feels they can do without, and the choice is obvious: Bonding Stones

    It is important to note that there were probably MANY other options considered, but only one course of action would be pursued

    Once that decision was made, more discussion was held around how exactly this AD sink should be placed on Bonding Stones, and again, I'm sure there were MANY opinions expressed, yet the simplest and most direct approach is always favored, so lowering the value of companion's gift and then replacing that with overall increases in everything else to make up for it emerges to fit the criteria of a durable and effective AD sink that doesn't change the game and is fully recoverable

    Knowing this change would be met with the kind of rage and ire it has, the value of player feedback is given a hat-tip in the form of a sacrificial lamb: variable up-time on companion's gift... designed to be removed in order to simulate a softening of the blow, assuaging many outraged players (the stick is employed with the balm in mind)

    This is an alternate, if entirely speculative, explanation of how this could have come down the line, and it makes sense without evil, whip wielding corporate overlords forcing their slave-devs to create new ways of extorting or stealing money from their customers, though throw in some fire pits and place that in a cavern and that would make a pretty cool dungeon idea for a future mod

    Does it make it feel better if the goal here was to improve the game's economy instead of lining some fat-cat stereotype's pockets? For me, it does... and I hope others can see how a healthy economy benefits us all and assures the game will be around to play at all

    Keep in mind though, all of those ideas that were proposed as AD sinks and then as Bonding changes still exist, and the people that made those suggestions still believe in the value of their solutions... and they will bring them up again later, rest assured

    Hopefully, one of the ideas that was shot down as not quite meeting the AD Sink criteria was changing the way companion's gift is given with relation to power sharing, though I'm sure there were a lot of great ideas expressed during my hypothetical meetings that may yet get put into live code one day

    So, I think its not correct to say the devs don't get to make decisions, and I think the October Bugfix Thread is perfect proof of that, though I don't think they get to do whatever they want, whenever they want, or that anyone's motivations are purely greed or sadism... unless my ex-girlfriend changed careers

    I also disagree, again, that there is no longer any relationship between players and Cryptic (unless you quit the game, and then only for you,) but rather, in Facebook terms, "It's Complicated"
  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Member Posts: 1,598 Arc User
    I maintain that Bonding stones needed attention, but it is clear that the general consensus is that this is too much too far.

    There seems to be some sort of behind the scenes ground shift in the nature of how end game material is to be perceived and played.

    One of the most obvious issues they are trying to address is the lack of people running the end game dungeons FBI and MSPC. If you look at all the changes to Random Queues and the absolute refusal to even consider shifting those two out of the "Epic" section, a move that would put every concern to bed, (but might slightly impact a few players ability to max out daily Seals of the Brave in one go) the only conclusion you can come to is that part of, if not entirely, the motive behind that change is to drive people into FBI and MSP.

    But... reducing the capacity of the people who CAN finish those dungeons, while forcing a multitude of undergeared characters into them reeks of mis-managment.

    I don't know if these two ideas were dreamed up by seperate working groups, but if one group of people came up with that combination of forcing veterans in with a mixed bag of undergeared novices, AND down grading the power of the veterans at the same time... either someone wants it to fail, or just doesn't seem to know what they are doing.
  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,053 Arc User
    @mordekai
    That's exactly what it feels like. Like 2 separate groups are making decisions on the power "balance". And instead of deciding on one nerf, they just nerfed everything and gave everyone an imaginary apology basket and effed right off.

    It's saddening how good this game was, and how much it's turning into a soul-less mmo.
    1st, it gives you a veritable landslide of candy (eg. making enchants scale with power), but takes away heart medication (list every nerf in the last 6 months here - and there's a lot).
  • krzrsmskrzrsms Member Posts: 164 Arc User
    Yea

    My guild is dead. Suddenly people quitting to play. 4-5 people online is a rare sight. People are really upset on these bonding changes. I am too. Mostly because no dev response or community manager statement was produced in this thread.

    Yea Its sad, my guild is similar. We've gone from regularly having 10-15 on at a time to rarely having more than 2-3. ..and me and the co-lead are 1-2 of those. Sometimes a friend pops on for a bit of a chat, but little dungeoning is done. 'Why bother?' I suppose is the general feeling.

    Whatever you do get is bound for obscolescnece by design. Not that this is inherently a bad thing, because the normal trade-off is obscolescence for game progression and content. Nope.. not now. Now its just Nerf because something is an outlier.. which is the enemy of variation, which is the path to sameness and boredom. Not to mention the feelings that we've had our AD/Zen/time outright stolen instead of getting the use out of them that was implied when we set out to improve whichever of these items you want to focus on, bondings in this case.

    I was going to stay in my guild to continue having a central meeting place for the players and those coming up that didn't feel so burned by these changes. Its now seeming that more and more even that caretaker role will be unnecesary. If things continue on as is, I just need to show up about a week after 12b to 'turn off the lights' and be done with it.

    Just from our guild alone that I know of, they've lost at least 6 heavy spenders that bought heavy amounts of zen on a whim, and 8 light to moderate spenders that would buy zen for a good sale. ..and we're a small guild. The feeling of loss and that any input we have towards bettering ourselves,eq,guild is being intentionally devalued with no compensation, is too much.

    The F2P promise was that enough would pay to make the provider $ and the players a game that even the free players could enjoy and be tempted in paying even more. Now we just have a situation where the Devs are trying to victimize the ones who pay, for no benefit. There is no mutually beneficial relationship here.

    As an earlier commenter indicated it would be 'better' if there was some communicated plan even. Not that all these complaints would go away, but at least some things could be seen as a better light. Instead we have vague notions that this or that 'should' be less powerful, that in some mysterious future 'balance' will be achieved. But no grand plan has been communicated that can tell us if we are focusing our efforts towards something that will continue to be valid.

    No balance will ever be achieved because every change is done piecemeal and then retracted later after several other changes change the balance once again. Then they move on to rebalancing an entire class. By the time we get a full rework, the ones at the start of the process have been neutered by the various 'unexpected' 'unintended' interactions.

    They would be better leaving this thing alone and taking our money as we grind to the end instead of providing de-motivationals every month.
  • ukunaka#3833 ukunaka Member Posts: 28 Arc User
    General feed back from everyone // TL ; DR for entire thread :

    Stop... just stop...
    Isis Sahoni - • The Black Blades • Alliance leader • Helm Guild
    Knight of Eilistraee - Darksong Knights Leader
    T'rissia Veladorn - The Sword Dancers of Eilistraee Leader
    Iraedril Mel'lyl - Church of Eilistraee Leader
    Siara of Chult - • Mergandevinasander Leader / •
    Baevyrae Ss'blis•The Bregan D'aerthe Leader
    Ty'ali Kalkana • The Black Blades of Shadow Co-leader
    Xun'tana H'tithet - Sword Dancer of Elistraee
    Xiara Shadowdancer •TBD•
    Chaoxing of Shoulung
  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    > @krzrsms said:
    > YeaMy guild is dead. Suddenly people quitting to play. 4-5 people online is a rare sight. People are really upset on these bonding changes. I am too. Mostly because no dev response or community manager statement was produced in this thread.
    >
    > Yea Its sad, my guild is similar. We've gone from regularly having 10-15 on at a time to rarely having more than 2-3. ..and me and the co-lead are 1-2 of those. Sometimes a friend pops on for a bit of a chat, but little dungeoning is done. 'Why bother?' I suppose is the general feeling.
    >
    > Whatever you do get is bound for obscolescnece by design. Not that this is inherently a bad thing, because the normal trade-off is obscolescence for game progression and content. Nope.. not now. Now its just Nerf because something is an outlier.. which is the enemy of variation, which is the path to sameness and boredom. Not to mention the feelings that we've had our AD/Zen/time outright stolen instead of getting the use out of them that was implied when we set out to improve whichever of these items you want to focus on, bondings in this case.
    >
    > I was going to stay in my guild to continue having a central meeting place for the players and those coming up that didn't feel so burned by these changes. Its now seeming that more and more even that caretaker role will be unnecesary. If things continue on as is, I just need to show up about a week after 12b to 'turn off the lights' and be done with it.
    >
    > Just from our guild alone that I know of, they've lost at least 6 heavy spenders that bought heavy amounts of zen on a whim, and 8 light to moderate spenders that would buy zen for a good sale. ..and we're a small guild. The feeling of loss and that any input we have towards bettering ourselves,eq,guild is being intentionally devalued with no compensation, is too much.
    >
    > The F2P promise was that enough would pay to make the provider $ and the players a game that even the free players could enjoy and be tempted in paying even more. Now we just have a situation where the Devs are trying to victimize the ones who pay, for no benefit. There is no mutually beneficial relationship here.
    >
    > As an earlier commenter indicated it would be 'better' if there was some communicated plan even. Not that all these complaints would go away, but at least some things could be seen as a better light. Instead we have vague notions that this or that 'should' be less powerful, that in some mysterious future 'balance' will be achieved. But no grand plan has been communicated that can tell us if we are focusing our efforts towards something that will continue to be valid.
    >
    > No balance will ever be achieved because every change is done piecemeal and then retracted later after several other changes change the balance once again. Then they move on to rebalancing an entire class. By the time we get a full rework, the ones at the start of the process have been neutered by the various 'unexpected' 'unintended' interactions.
    >
    > They would be better leaving this thing alone and taking our money as we grind to the end instead of providing de-motivationals every month.

    It's not the devs... it's the producers. Check out the hidden cam that shows their meetings.... devs just get a time line and do what they are told. Www.linktodevmeeting.org
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
  • santralafaxsantralafax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,896 Arc User

    General feed back from everyone // TL ; DR for entire thread :

    Stop... just stop...

    That's right. They should just stop these changes.
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  • edited October 2017
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  • masterogamasteroga Member Posts: 474 Arc User
    edited December 2017
    Did they answer why they changed bonding to not refresh each time a comp attacks? There appears to be no reason to have made this change....
  • theredgodz#4642 theredgodz Member Posts: 12 Arc User
    Been playing since release and this is the first time anything has gotten me interested.

    The games stale, I really only play the market and even then I've literally aquired everything i could want (and sometimes didn't want haha).

    Now I have something new to do gg cryptic
  • merhunesdagon1merhunesdagon1 Member Posts: 146 Arc User

    Been playing since release and this is the first time anything has gotten me interested.



    The games stale, I really only play the market and even then I've literally aquired everything i could want (and sometimes didn't want haha).



    Now I have something new to do gg cryptic

    I fell the exact same way about this game, even though I still find it fun from time to time. I've literally hit a brick wall aftyer 3 yrs of playing. only thin left to do is helping my alliance and min/maxing lol.
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  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    Bondings being better at being augments than augment companions was an absurdity. The meta was that augment companions weren't justifiable for endgame content. Not sure the changes implemented are the way to fix the issue, but it's nice that augments aren't completely useless anymore, even if that only happened by dragging everyone else down to their level.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    Bonding stats gains from a companion for R7-R14 are now linear and previously they were not. Bonding had little to not impact to any of my characters. Yeah I lost a bit of power and crit but I also gained a bit from higher stats on lower rank enchantments.

    Talking to a BiS GWF after the adjustment. He lost 7K power everything else stayed the same and that was after getting his Bonding to R13. He did not do any other enchantment. We talked for a few hours and he told me this, R12 to R13 is not that bad for any enchantment. Once he gets all of his enchantments to R13 he will have to swap some out and he believes that the 7K power he lost will be closer to 5k.

    The biggest impact to bonding is power sharing. A 40K base power AC DC with AA would share above 20K to the companions and 20K to other players, roughly. A 20K boost to a companion with R12 bonding resulted with the player getting around 80K power total from the DC. A player that has R14 Bonding will receive 59K in total power after the update from the same DC. It is a 25% overall power loss to the player.

    The devs were able to solve the power sharing issue and create an AD sink for end game players. It was a win-win for them to do this.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User

    Bondings being better at being augments than augment companions was an absurdity. The meta was that augment companions weren't justifiable for endgame content. Not sure the changes implemented are the way to fix the issue, but it's nice that augments aren't completely useless anymore, even if that only happened by dragging everyone else down to their level.

    Augment companions always have a place in the game when a boss is able to knock off a companion. FBI and MSPC 2nd bosses are example of this.
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