Official Feedback Thread: Bonding Runestone Changes

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  • gerverpanda
    gerverpanda Member Posts: 28 Arc User

    > @metalicum1 said:

    >

    > Well I play buffing CW, not going to be left out in mod 12 with or without the changes. This is not about me being more or less viable. I play most of the time in premade parties, friends, anyway.

    >

    > The main problem is that the game is not as interesting as it could be. How do you build a DPS toon nowadays? cap everything you can and stack power. How do you build a party? Take all the powersharing you can and add a GWF/HR.

    > Everyone has so much stats that there is an entire portion of the game left out.

    > Does anyone consider slotting skills and items for reducing incoming damage? No

    > Does anyone look for utilities like CC when fighting mobs? No

    > Does anyone need an off-tank, an off healer? No

    > Does anyone need to follow boss mechanics? No daily spamming fixes everything

    > Does anyone need different then meta DPS enchants, and debuffing ones? No

    >

    > Well there you go. With less stats the game will be better in my not so humble opinion. I don't see people even considering that. I see them only calculating how much stats they will loose and what they do now may not be as viable anymore.

    >

    > There are viable concerns, but very few people are threatening to quit because of those.

    ====================================================================================================



    I guess that I must live and play on a magical island where we don't have those "problems", a Neverwinter utopia?

    As they are not a viable concern to me...



    1.) Yes.. Dps stats are pretty cookie cutter, but they make sense. Reach 60% RI> reach 100% Crit Chance> Stack Power>add a rotation. The rotation is completely up to you. Some are more efficient but what you use is YOUR choice.



    2.) I slot skills that reduce the groups incoming damage, increase damage resistance, or decrease the enemies damage output very often. Just quickly off the top of my head; Astral shield on my DC, Circle of Power on my OP, Knights Valor on my GF, Commanding Shot on my HR, Ray of Enfeeblement on my CW, and I am sure that there are more I'm forgetting.



    3.) Yes CC powers are great! I routinely use; Icy Terrain/Arcane Singularity/Oppressive Force/Furious Immolation on my CW, Plant Growth on my HR, Smoke Bomb on my TR, .....



    4.) Yup, Tanks are always in the group, sometimes 2, and we run with Healadins, Templocks, and Virtuos Clerics all the time.



    5.) Yes boss mechanics are followed, no spamming of dailies is going to magically help you beat in mspc.



    You are always entitled to your "not so humble opinion" but I guess that I am just not seeing an issue. For good or bad, people are going to play the way that they want to play no matter what. They will always find a way to play without X Role in a misguided attempt to shave a minute or two off of a run.



    To say that the game needs to be nerfed in any way in an effort to force players to play as you see fit is just self-serving bs.



    You know what they say about opinions though... That is just my not so humble opinion ;)

    It's true we might be playing in a different world. Last time I checked nobody ever mentioned wanting to run with a Warlock or Rogue, but I've seen thousands of people spamming chats to get more DCs into their runs.
    I've never ever seen anyone wanting more crowd control or any of such utility.
    And yes I can consciously play the game less efficiently by slotting worse powers, but's that not a good game design argument. I can do whatever I want technically, I can run without armor or without any companions, sure I can, but I am not playing the game anymore as the very essence, to use your best ability and knowledge to win, is gone.

    You are absolutely right, I want to shape the game to the state I like it more. Just like everyone else here. There are 14 pages of people wanting to shape the changes and the game to what they want.

    (btw and this is true, I've played probably hundreds of public and private runs of MSVA, and never ever once, if it wasn't my personal group, anyone used the runes boss mechanic. Never ever ever. Why? Because it was inefficient, it was better to stay in one big pile and push buttons)
    why you care about having a role in a party, when you already said you have a personal group to run with? Stick with them, for everyone's sake. Try finding 5-10 other players that share your vision of what the game should be like, and just go away.

    All that HAMSTER you talk about was already in the game, and its still there, its just overshadowed by what players consider and has been proven to be more efficient. And you bring game design to it. If at its current state the game's design doesn't please you, go find another game. No one is arguing the design of the game, but the decisions taken by the developers that directly hurt the community. A good player with bondings will always come on top of a bad one with them. The field is already even, bondings, same as everything else in this game, are available for everyone to acquire if you really desire, by cash or time.

    No one is trying to change anything, except people like you. Most people don't want those changes, they just want improvements to other areas that will bring a balance. Nerfing, in Arcs case, has never really been a positive answer to any issues. They just keep setting up the stage for further broken HAMSTER by taking shortcuts, and not addressing the right issues.
  • david#2060
    david#2060 Member Posts: 78 Arc User
    Even having back the 100% uptime, I still dont know what to think about cryptic intentions with this.

    If you wanna reduce the gap between augment and bonding companions, the logical step is to buff augment, not nerf bondings; specially when the game difficulty for the last year has been adjusted to the current bonding situation. All runing tong, fbi, msva, well go back to etos again, and current players in progression runing etos and the like...cloak tower? :D:D:D

    C´mon, if you wanted to provide challenge, this is the cheapiest (read crapiest) way to provide it :/:/:/:/
  • fluffy6977
    fluffy6977 Member Posts: 291 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    @noworries#8859

    Thanks for putting back the possibility of a 100% uptime for bondings. I think this change is well on the way to balancing out companions and players.

    It feels like the balance between Augments, Bondings, and Eldritch stones is off. Could we explore the possibility of either adding stats to Eldritch (in addition to the buffing effect) to bring them more in line with Bondings (still worse, there needs to be a compelling reason to use Bondings over Eldritch powered Augments) or could we increase the multiplier on Augments to be 1.25 instead of 1? At 1.25 the average Augment would give roughly 3k less stats that a Bonding comp, with no CA granting, debuffing, or insignia bonuses. I could actually see myself using an augment for tank builds or alts if it was pretty close.

    Final point, has the interaction between OP/DC Powershare and Bondings been killed off? Otherwise they are going to be completely imbalanced versus any other option, since you could be losing out on 150k-300k Power.

    Thanks, really like what you're doing!
  • ragequittingdc#8599
    ragequittingdc#8599 Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    > @jumpingmorks said:
    > stat share reduction is still all bad, 100% uptime or not. I'll ask again, maybe with an answer this time, how and where are bondings over performing? I literally just did nsva as the only dps with 3x rank 12, and guess what happened? fail...to be fair storvald only had his last sliver of life left. I wonder how much life he would of had still with the proposed changes.
    >
    > As a few people have stated after @noworries and before this post alone, power sharing being passed on to companions then buffed by companion bondings is just too OP. Yes, we love the stats they give but it needs to go for the same reason as using UD rings on companions had to go.
    >
    > There will probably be a good few people who dislike this post but Augments had become trash, it reduced players options and forced those that wanted to use Augments to using Companions.
    >
    > With the 100% uptime on companions and a reduction in the percentage of stats passed from bondings I feel this is a fair rebalance and not as it started, replacing one BiS item with another. It also addresses another concern some had that Augments with 3xDefense slots, there only being the one, the Bulette, ould be the ONLY option for the BiS players.
    >
    > Like I said, I DON'T like losing stats, but there was a massive balance issue between Augments and Companions that had to be addressed at some point in some manner. So at the end of the day, personally, I can live with this change and can work with it. I can also understand that there will be those who will still be vehemently againts it.



    power sharing from dc/op is a class balancing issue. fix the classes, don't nerf the bondings. UD rings was, to my knowledge, considered an accidental thing that was always ment to be removed in time, bondings were not, that's why there is outrage over this announcement and there was none for that. bondings did not force you to use anything you didn't want to use. if you wanted to stroll into fangbreaker with profane runes x3 with an ioun stone, nothing was stopping you. if you wanted devs to buff them so you could complete end game content with the bare minimum dps, then ask for one without an unneccesary nerf to something people invest time and money into. nothing at all is fair about that. it screams selfishness because there is a want from a small group of people to be at rank 12 bonding effeciency without putting in any of the work to get the bondings themselves like the majority group has.

    now everybody across the board is getting a major reduction, not just the pure dps spec characters, and just so a handful of people can have a swirling rock around their toons head and 100k AD runestones they bought prior to the announcement? as others have said, around 6-9 months of player progression is being taken in one fell swoop just so you can work another 6-9 months to reach just below the same place you were, again. I can't even begin to fathom how anybody that regularly plays this game can fix their fingers to type out how this is all a great idea, especially while completely ignoring the true common denominator and underlying issue of power share, which is class balancing. when and/or if the nerf goes live, how balanced does this sound, [zone]"I NEED 2 HDPS 2 DC DO/AC 15K+ FBI/MSPC"[/zone], because that's where we're headed, even more so than it already exists now.
    im actually the gwf carry
  • mamalion1234
    mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,379 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    Even having back the 100% uptime, I still dont know what to think about cryptic intentions with this.

    If you wanna reduce the gap between augment and bonding companions, the logical step is to buff augment, not nerf bondings; specially when the game difficulty for the last year has been adjusted to the current bonding situation. All runing tong, fbi, msva, well go back to etos again, and current players in progression runing etos and the like...cloak tower? :D:D:D

    C´mon, if you wanted to provide challenge, this is the cheapiest (read crapiest) way to provide it :/:/:/:/

    Or to stop the power share x4 buffng which happens only with bonding and summon companion(220k + power as i posted some pages ago) 1st ofcourse for balance issues and 2nd that would help to close that gap vs an augment .
  • thefiresidecat
    thefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    stat share reduction is still all bad, 100% uptime or not. I'll ask again, maybe with an answer this time, how and where are bondings over performing? I literally just did nsva as the only dps with 3x rank 12, and guess what happened? fail...to be fair storvald only had his last sliver of life left. I wonder how much life he would of had still with the proposed changes.

    As a few people have stated after @noworries and before this post alone, power sharing being passed on to companions then buffed by companion bondings is just too OP. Yes, we love the stats they give but it needs to go for the same reason as using UD rings on companions had to go.

    There will probably be a good few people who dislike this post but Augments had become trash, it reduced players options and forced those that wanted to use Augments to using Companions.

    With the 100% uptime on companions and a reduction in the percentage of stats passed from bondings I feel this is a fair rebalance and not as it started, replacing one BiS item with another. It also addresses another concern some had that Augments with 3xDefense slots, there only being the one, the Bulette, ould be the ONLY option for the BiS players.

    Like I said, I DON'T like losing stats, but there was a massive balance issue between Augments and Companions that had to be addressed at some point in some manner. So at the end of the day, personally, I can live with this change and can work with it. I can also understand that there will be those who will still be vehemently againts it.
    I don't think anything needed to be changed. if they want to change anything I'd say companions immune to buffs. but leave the rest alone. if you're in a great party great. but if you aren't (which is 90 percent of hte player base) then nerfing all this hurts way more than it helps. it was only op for the elite. not the huddling masses. the augment didn't NEED a buff. tbh I don't think we needed augs in the game at all. balancing them wasn't a concern because having lower level bondings allowed the same stats and lets you have whatever companion you want.

    (just my personal opinion) but that said I wouldn't whine about them being buffed. that's great. buff all the things. just don't nerf.
    I think the real issue on the companies side is they're reaching a brick wall wiht people improving their gear. they wanted to let people upgrade all the enchants more to keep revenue and player interest up inthe game, but if they let the bondings be upgraded more they would become impossibly powerful.

    the solution isn't to nerf them though. it's to add the levels; but with some sort of other bonus. a control bonus or a companion influence bonus or some sort of boon type bonus that is additive with the other bondings. maybe give a choice ala boons. it doesn't have to be more stat increase given to you to be worthwhile. people are ocd thats why they keep upgrading anyway no matter what you put on there as another level people will feel compelled to take it. lol. boom. no feelings hurt no one feels robbed.
  • frozenfirevr
    frozenfirevr Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,475 Community Moderator
    edited September 2017
    @noworries#8859, @asterdahl, @kreatyve, I'll probably get a lot of flak for this, but wanted to put forth the idea.

    Now after the re-adjustments (thanks for that, but I'd prefer that you remove the cooldown rather than match it), Bondings are back to BiS, which is welcome.

    But if you really want augments to match them, give them an Expert and Master Augmentation ability like the other companions have... Both those ranks can add a 10% bonus each to the augmented stats totally 120% stats transferred. And, while at it, remove the stats *shudders* that bondings give (the 1050 at R14), and leave just the stat transfer. That way, both Augments and Bondings can be in a similar state and people who prefer the debuffs, etc from companions can use those and those that prefer stable stats (your companion AI still sucks terribly, several times I see my companion stand and watch me fighting instead of helping, I'm pretty sure I ain't that glorious to watch) can use augments without having to bear massive losses.

    EDIT: Looks like even that won't make augments match bondings... Because they can't be buffed. You need to let them be 'buffable' like the companions.
    Post edited by frozenfirevr on
    FrozenFire
  • frozenfirevr
    frozenfirevr Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,475 Community Moderator
    edited September 2017
    And, people, while it's no longer applicable, please stop taking averages when cooldowns are applicable... It ain't as easy as that. You get a lot less usability when there's a cooldown, not a fixed percentage.
    FrozenFire
  • fingerlickngood
    fingerlickngood Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    Just gutted after reading yesterdays planned changes. Getting bondings to the levels they are at hasn't come easy and these proposed changes make you rethink putting another cent or time towards the game. Introduced friends to game and they have been enjoying it and opening their wallets for you. I'll wait and see what happens but feel glad vip less than 50 days left.
  • frozenfirevr
    frozenfirevr Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,475 Community Moderator
    edited September 2017
    Also, people, do keep in mind that cooldown=uptime is not the same as not having a cooldown. It will not be like what we have currently. We once again would need fast attacking companions, and time buffs with bondings.

    Thanks to @darthtzarr for letting me know that bit...
    FrozenFire
  • hiddenginja#2174
    hiddenginja#2174 Member Posts: 30 Arc User
    Im a 16k SW, we're already probably the lowest dps now or soon to be once they've finished with TR, and now you want to make us even weaker? I paid money for my bondings and got them directly from the Auction House. This is a massive insult to the player base. I've ran Tomb Of the Nine Gods on my warlock, and its damn painful, I mean I know you've said that TRs are suppose to be best single target damage in the game, but then what the hell are SWs suppose to be? We dont have alot of AoE, and are out-done by the majority of all DPS classes, single target we don't do to bad but GWFs etc can still come hundreds of millions above, and now with the bonding nurf we're going to be even more exceptionally screwed..

    Weaker and weaker and weaker. I honestly don't even know what to say anymore. I'd like to say 'do you even play your own game', but I know you do, so I know that excuse is out. This bondings idea confuses me to no end, im 16k and find the newest hard to run, this is going to ruin the game for loads of people, not to mention stab people in the back for all the work they put into getting their bondings to rank 12.
  • muckingfuppet
    muckingfuppet Member Posts: 207 Arc User
    > @dashmatrix#9673 said:
    > > @muckingfuppet said:

    > > I've stuck with this game for years through thick and thin but if bondings are nerfed in shape way or form then I'm out, not all of us run with super mega groups that can kill bosses in seconds, I've put thousands of pounds into getting my character to where it is and now you want to take a massive part of that away from me but at the same time also expect me to put more money into your new system? you must be off your face to think this will work you are killing your owe game, if this was any other kind of business you would be bankrupt in a heartbeat, the problem is the world of mmo's isn't policed by any governing body so you just do as you please, if this was a company on the high street you would be sued to hell and back for miss selling, as I've said a simple and easy fix to this problem is to stop companions from receiving buffs from any outside source it's that simple the only reason to go through with this NERF is to force us to spend more cash, you guys at cryptic most think we are stupid

    >

    > Couldn't AGREE more. They have taught all of us loyal, dedicated players who have invested thousands in their game, a VERY important lesson : We are all STUPID for having spent money on their game. We should join the ranks of free players, who just grind away to build "ok" characters, because no matter how much we SPEND to build a superior build, they are going to nerf it to make it useless eventually. But DON'T worry there will be other options for you to pour money into that will be equally useless when we max out.

    > Thanks Cryptic for negating the last 6 months of my life in your game. Rather than create NEW content, or provide additional activities in this game, you consistently focus on making the challenging content less challenging (a la castle never), the drops more mundane, and the superior builds less effective with every mod. Rather than ADD good content, your focus is on making everything mediocre. Good plan. So you're not customer focused. Not even on the top tier players. You've received your last micro transaction from this player.

    > @strathkin said:
    > If 50% up-time on companion's gift is such a good idea, why not put 50% up-time on augment companions too?
    > Spread the joy!
    > Two years ago, 50% up-time would be acceptable because many people did not have bonding stones.
    > But now, it's too late. Too many players have designed (expensively) their characters based on 100% up-time.
    > Killing bonding stones will upset too many players, especially players with multiple characters.
    > I am not switching all my characters (back) to augment companions. And I refuse to play only one character.
    > 50% uptime on companion's gift is the end for me, and I am sure, for many other players too.
    >
    > Well their are likely 5 - 10 good reasons.
    >
    > Bondings give currently give a dual buff a +840 (not +700) like others and do this while also giving currently a 95% augment bonus per stone. Then on top of that bonding also grants the companion the buff of the runestone, enchantments, and gear on their direct 3 attack powers or 4 if you have the Lion; but then also extends that benefit to the player by a factor of almost 3x to the player at 70-85% uptime.
    >
    > An Augment only Augments it does not also attack while then further extending 3x the benefit to the player; an augment doesn't even gain the augmentation boost from a bonding since it has no attack powers. So Augments should be 100% uptime so perhaps in future we'll see a few more using Augments depending on their builds, class or feat choices; but we'll still likely see a majority with bonding pets.
    >
    > People say 50% uptime is unacceptable yet look how many worked hard to get their +5 Sudden Ring's from Underdark and still mostly use them today for 10s of benefit once every 30s or a 33% uptime. Still Bondings will still offer a clear 2 - 2.5x advantage over most runestones; most will quickly find that out on PREVIEW.
    >
    > This I believe like some have stated will restore a little more balance to game while also allowing DPS to look for support classes to maximize their benefit. So it offer's players with different builds or classes a few more viable options not just a mandatory one size fit's all solution like it is today.
    >
    > Seeing one player do 305 million damage in a dungeon, with maybe another at 50m, then one or two others at maybe 15-25m, and one player at 5m really isn't team work. So instead we might see perhaps the top player reduced to 235m, but the 2nd increased to 90m, with the third & fourth players doing 20-50m and the 5th level player perhaps 10-15m. The team still does about the same damage overall and it may take 1-4 minutes longer but it's a little more of a team dynamic.
    >
    > Clearly the top end player here wouldn't also have any issues running solo in any campaign area and likely if he got all his enchantments to R14 or Weapon & Armor to Rank 13; he'd likely fit into a new top end damage dealer doing well above >450m damage if he re-ran the same dungeon with the same players geared the same while he previous had R12 Enchants.

    lol one player doing all the damage is exactly that it's teamwork, others buffing others de buffing others healing while one guy does the damage so why would you expect everyone to do the same damage in a team?
  • thatguy321654987
    thatguy321654987 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 39 Arc User
    This is a blatant cash grab. You preform this obvious, as others have said before, ambit claim and expect us to be ok with it. Now i'm not upset about nerfing our stuff, well i am but that's not why i'm troubling you now. To nerf something for balance is tough but fair. No, you are nerfing what we got, and adding levels to it so we have to grind to get back what we already had. Why can't you keep it at 12 and nerf what it gives? What's wrong with that?

    Legitimate question here, that if true you can just throw away what i just said. When you preform the update, will our maxed out 12's or 11's be transformed into 14's or 13's? Or will we have to grind to get to this new maxed out level?
  • strathkin
    strathkin Member Posts: 1,250 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    > @dashmatrix#9673 said:

    > > @muckingfuppet said:




    > > I've stuck with this game for years through thick and thin but if bondings are nerfed in shape way or form then I'm out, not all of us run with super mega groups that can kill bosses in seconds, I've put thousands of pounds into getting my character to where it is and now you want to take a massive part of that away from me but at the same time also expect me to put more money into your new system? you must be off your face to think this will work you are killing your owe game, if this was any other kind of business you would be bankrupt in a heartbeat, the problem is the world of mmo's isn't policed by any governing body so you just do as you please, if this was a company on the high street you would be sued to hell and back for miss selling, as I've said a simple and easy fix to this problem is to stop companions from receiving buffs from any outside source it's that simple the only reason to go through with this NERF is to force us to spend more cash, you guys at cryptic most think we are stupid




    >




    > Couldn't AGREE more. They have taught all of us loyal, dedicated players who have invested thousands in their game, a VERY important lesson : We are all STUPID for having spent money on their game. We should join the ranks of free players, who just grind away to build "ok" characters, because no matter how much we SPEND to build a superior build, they are going to nerf it to make it useless eventually. But DON'T worry there will be other options for you to pour money into that will be equally useless when we max out.




    > Thanks Cryptic for negating the last 6 months of my life in your game. Rather than create NEW content, or provide additional activities in this game, you consistently focus on making the challenging content less challenging (a la castle never), the drops more mundane, and the superior builds less effective with every mod. Rather than ADD good content, your focus is on making everything mediocre. Good plan. So you're not customer focused. Not even on the top tier players. You've received your last micro transaction from this player.



    > @strathkin said:

    > If 50% up-time on companion's gift is such a good idea, why not put 50% up-time on augment companions too?

    > Spread the joy!

    > Two years ago, 50% up-time would be acceptable because many people did not have bonding stones.

    > But now, it's too late. Too many players have designed (expensively) their characters based on 100% up-time.

    > Killing bonding stones will upset too many players, especially players with multiple characters.

    > I am not switching all my characters (back) to augment companions. And I refuse to play only one character.

    > 50% uptime on companion's gift is the end for me, and I am sure, for many other players too.

    >

    > Well their are likely 5 - 10 good reasons.

    >

    > Bondings give currently give a dual buff a +840 (not +700) like others and do this while also giving currently a 95% augment bonus per stone. Then on top of that bonding also grants the companion the buff of the runestone, enchantments, and gear on their direct 3 attack powers or 4 if you have the Lion; but then also extends that benefit to the player by a factor of almost 3x to the player at 70-85% uptime.

    >

    > An Augment only Augments it does not also attack while then further extending 3x the benefit to the player; an augment doesn't even gain the augmentation boost from a bonding since it has no attack powers. So Augments should be 100% uptime so perhaps in future we'll see a few more using Augments depending on their builds, class or feat choices; but we'll still likely see a majority with bonding pets.

    >

    > People say 50% uptime is unacceptable yet look how many worked hard to get their +5 Sudden Ring's from Underdark and still mostly use them today for 10s of benefit once every 30s or a 33% uptime. Still Bondings will still offer a clear 2 - 2.5x advantage over most runestones; most will quickly find that out on PREVIEW.

    >

    > This I believe like some have stated will restore a little more balance to game while also allowing DPS to look for support classes to maximize their benefit. So it offer's players with different builds or classes a few more viable options not just a mandatory one size fit's all solution like it is today.

    >

    > Seeing one player do 305 million damage in a dungeon, with maybe another at 50m, then one or two others at maybe 15-25m, and one player at 5m really isn't team work. So instead we might see perhaps the top player reduced to 235m, but the 2nd increased to 90m, with the third & fourth players doing 20-50m and the 5th level player perhaps 10-15m. The team still does about the same damage overall and it may take 1-4 minutes longer but it's a little more of a team dynamic.

    >

    > Clearly the top end player here wouldn't also have any issues running solo in any campaign area and likely if he got all his enchantments to R14 or Weapon & Armor to Rank 13; he'd likely fit into a new top end damage dealer doing well above >450m damage if he re-ran the same dungeon with the same players geared the same while he previous had R12 Enchants.



    lol one player doing all the damage is exactly that it's teamwork, others buffing others de buffing others healing while one guy does the damage so why would you expect everyone to do the same damage in a team?

    I'm not expecting everyone to do the same damage on a team so you've misunderstood. But even if you had 1-2 support classed mixed in with 2-3 DPS classes I think the new changes will Restore a little more balanced gameplay--that was all.

    Also the quote above is incorrectly identifying what I said: As My statement begins with " Well their are likely 5 - 10 good reasons..."

    I largely think most of the proposed changes will be generally positive for most people and hope more remain positive. It's possible we may still see a few tweaks or slight accommodations to what's been talked about but I think most updates are good. :)
  • silvergryph
    silvergryph Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 740 Arc User
    Well, it is true that cooldown = uptime is not necessarily the same thing as up 100% of the time. But, its close enough that you are making Bondings totally eclipse augments again. Defeating the stated goal of making both viable.

    Even changing Eldritch to stat sharing in both offensive and defensive slots doesn't bring them close enough to Bondings to make them a viable choice. Bondings still give you more stat points 90% of the time or more plus the other contributions like debuffs, insignia procs, healing, DPS, etc. (195% for 3 Rank 14 Bondings as opposed to the theoretical Bulette pup with 3 Rank 14 Eldritch at 176.5%.) Additionally, this means that there is no need for any other runestone to exist other than Bondings or Eldritch. So, there goes diversity and choice out the window.

    Here's a radical idea.
    • Remove the proc from Bondings altogether. Make the stats always on just by equipping them. This of course means they would work on augments, too.
    • Triple the proposed percentages for Bonding runestones but remove stacking so that you only get stats from one Bonding. (195% for Rank 14.)
    • Make them half as effective for augments. So that Rank 14 adds 97.5% to an augment (197.5% total).
    • Leave ArPen on the Eldritch runestones and instead replace the defensive ability. Probably with Lifesteal.
    So, the result is that both augment and non-augment pets are good choices and all runestones will finally have a use even in endgame. You also get reliable, predictable stats from any companion. And you have a little more control over what those stats are because you free up two slots for the runestones of your choosing.

    They should also give all existing accounts a refinement package containing 1 Teal Diamond, 1 Brilliant Diamond, 3 Ultimate Potency, 3 Superior Enchantment Stones and 2 Coalescent Wards. Enough materials to upgrade a single Rank 12 all the way to Rank 14.
  • jumpingmorks
    jumpingmorks Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 876 Arc User

    Im a 16k SW, we're already probably the lowest dps now or soon to be once they've finished with TR, and now you want to make us even weaker? I paid money for my bondings and got them directly from the Auction House. This is a massive insult to the player base. I've ran Tomb Of the Nine Gods on my warlock, and its damn painful, I mean I know you've said that TRs are suppose to be best single target damage in the game, but then what the hell are SWs suppose to be? We dont have alot of AoE, and are out-done by the majority of all DPS classes, single target we don't do to bad but GWFs etc can still come hundreds of millions above, and now with the bonding nurf we're going to be even more exceptionally screwed..

    Weaker and weaker and weaker. I honestly don't even know what to say anymore. I'd like to say 'do you even play your own game', but I know you do, so I know that excuse is out. This bondings idea confuses me to no end, im 16k and find the newest hard to run, this is going to ruin the game for loads of people, not to mention stab people in the back for all the work they put into getting their bondings to rank 12.

    Personally I've always thought SW's should be the top DPS in game, they don't seem to have any innate defense. It just seems to me that the less tanky you are the more damage you should be able to do in return.

    So for what it's worth, I hope you guys get the rework you seem to need.
  • borisspaz#0883
    borisspaz#0883 Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    If you really wanted players to have a REAL choice you would leave BONDINGS alone and keep them at rank 12. Now this is the real choice for players , buff the Augmented pets through the roof with their runestones going up to 14. Now add in a static 2k Armour Penetration to the mix of the Augmented pets and boom you give the players a real choice and a boost to the economy.
  • gerverpanda
    gerverpanda Member Posts: 28 Arc User

    I still have to disagree with nerfing bondings at all, I also disagree with people who are complaining about power sharing in general. Why are you making power sharing an issue when nothing was said about why they decided to nerf bondings let alone power share. I am a guild leader of a high ranking guild, in a high rank alliance and I still only see maybe 10% of dps or teams or less that can just RUN through end game dungeons with no struggle, because the majority of the dps pool is really not fast enough. I run a great DC build and even I cannot make dps amazing if they aren't already great, so the complaints are ill founded. If you examine it closely then you see power sharing is not a problem, the difficulty in ranking items up and the majority of players not being able to access higher rank enchantments and gear because of excessive cost IS the problem, these people need more powersharing and they need access to RP and ranking up enchantments and bondings being easier. Please, stop with your petty jealous nitpicking about powersharing in "some" groups that the vast majority of people don't even get access to regardless of how much singular and small percentage of people put so much time and effort putting into their character to make it powerful. Most would never even know and you want to ruin it before they can even get there, completely ridiculous.

    I agree with this. This is the real problem. The gap between some players and other is whats really causing all the butthurt and cries from those calling for this nerfs and supporting them. This is probably the smartest take on it I have read so far.

  • mordekai#1901
    mordekai#1901 Member Posts: 1,598 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    I'm probably being a bit dim here, but can someone clarify what the uptime = cooldown thing means?
    Right now, Bonding Runestones provide;
    "...a chance to grant you Companions Gift, which grants you xx% of your Companion's stats for 20 seconds..."
    Now, that "chance" was, as we all know, made 100% so whenever a Companion activates a power it renews.
    There's no mention of a cooldown. If the new cooldown is equal to the 20 second activation, how is that different to the 50/50 up/down time in the initial proposal for change?

    What am I not understanding? How can something be up 100% of the time AND spend an equal amount of time on cool down?

    This isn't a sideways means of complaining, I just genuinely want some clarification.
  • diloul31
    diloul31 Member Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    I'm sorry for asking but there is something i dont't understand.
    I thought that power for dc gained throught pets and theirs bondings wasn't shared with group...

    I was adviced many time to use bondings for recovery and crit since power from bondings would not transfer to power sharing...

    Why i see people saying that annointed army is finished with the nerfing ?
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1216742/jareks-ac-righteous-pve-mod-10-mod-10b-guide-updated-on-november-10th-2016/p6
    """""DO NOT Count Towards Power-Sharing "Base Power"

    Companion's Gift (Bonding Runestone Stat Bonus)
    Augment Companion Stat Bonus
    Eldritch Runestone in Defense Slot Stat Bonus
    Companion Legendary Active Bonus (+15% stats does not count towards your base power, but it does appear that the legendary stat bonus is calculated from the companion's buffed power stat, including any power buffs you are putting out)""""


    On the main subject, i feel like Cryptic is trying to either kill the game slowly or trying to milk us again somehow.
  • tom#6998
    tom#6998 Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    thanks for bringing the uptime back to 100%. We will still have to deal with a huge stat loss and huge dmg loss in dungeons but atleast we have stable stats :)
  • frozenfirevr
    frozenfirevr Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,475 Community Moderator
    tom#6998 said:

    thanks for bringing the uptime back to 100%. We will still have to deal with a huge stat loss and huge dmg loss in dungeons but atleast we have stable stats :)

    You won't get 100% uptime... But atleast it ain't 50%...
    FrozenFire
  • valynstarfire
    valynstarfire Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 100 Arc User
    I think the Devil need to listen and realize the terrible decision that has been made. I believe that most of the issues around Bonding Runestones will have worked themselves out eventually. How and when you might ask.

    It has been said that the devs plan on raising the level cap to 80. When this happens, the eq that the companions wear can be more tightly controlled. In a recent stream, it was admitted that a mistake was made with companion gear. The Loyal Companion Gear (which set the benchmark) is not IL 420 like it says, but actually IL 840. With the increase in level cap, our own gear should bridge that gap in short order. New level cap also means new Stat formulas (this would also ...nerf Stronghold boons too, which has been talked about).

    Now this doesn't fix the power (or other possible stat) sharing. And why is this discussed? I thought it bad if someone could get 30-40k power from an OP/DC power share, but skimming through this (skimming mind you), someone said 150-300k. OMG, now THAT has to go, and very few people would argue.

    Without removing the extra bonuses from power sharing, I don't see this as truly affecting the true ...abuses of Bonding Runestones. Oh, it will reduce their effectiveness, for sure, for the very top end people, but the will be rendered pointless for all the lower end players.

    Get these changes RIGHT. I would wish for you to get them right before they even make it to Preview. Doing less than that and the result will be disastrous.
  • dragonlord#1931
    dragonlord#1931 Member Posts: 17 Arc User
    Its actually like politics work,

    The goverment is planning a 5% TAX increase so what they do? They announce a 10% TAX increase upcoming shortly. People get angry protest etc. "Ok Ok just to know that we hear you and we are for the people we 'll do a TAX increase ONLY 5%!" And that way everyone is happy
    So now even with your 50% uptime taken off table you are still HAMSTER up this game!

    The GREED is off the charts with you guys!

    Maybe nerf the bondings in one mod

    maybe introtuce a new rank on enchantments in another mod

    maybe introtuce a new rank on weapon/armor enchantments in another mod

    maybe trying to rework the refining system (THAT NOONE COMPLAINED ABOUT) in another mod.

    BUT doing it all at once thats plain stupid.
    Easier to make a pile of all the money that this game has made from us and burn them while dancing around it and dont forget to put the server on self destruct mode. A swift golden death is better off that what you are planing to do
  • gerverpanda
    gerverpanda Member Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    diloul31 said:

    I'm sorry for asking but there is something i dont't understand.

    I thought that power for dc gained throught pets and theirs bondings wasn't shared with group...



    I was adviced many time to use bondings for recovery and crit since power from bondings would not transfer to power sharing...



    Why i see people saying that annointed army is finished with the nerfing ?

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1216742/jareks-ac-righteous-pve-mod-10-mod-10b-guide-updated-on-november-10th-2016/p6

    """""DO NOT Count Towards Power-Sharing "Base Power"



    Companion's Gift (Bonding Runestone Stat Bonus)

    Augment Companion Stat Bonus

    Eldritch Runestone in Defense Slot Stat Bonus

    Companion Legendary Active Bonus (+15% stats does not count towards your base power, but it does appear that the legendary stat bonus is calculated from the companion's buffed power stat, including any power buffs you are putting out)""""





    On the main subject, i feel like Cryptic is trying to either kill the game slowly or trying to milk us again somehow.

    When you powershare, you give that power to your companion, then the companion gives you that power through bondings. The power you get from the companion from bondings, you cannot powershare, thats why its advised to instead put recovery, crit, armpen or any other enchantments on your companion.

    It goes something like this;
    You have 20k power.
    You give 20% of that power to your companion=4k power.
    Your companion now gives you 4k pow x3= 12k power.
    Now you have 40k+12k=52k power.
    If you powershare again, you'll share 4k power.
    That 12k from the companion cannot be shared.

    I think that's the simplest way it can be explained, but its not entirely accurate. Now the reason why people say it will kill AC DC and OP, is more complicated to explain, but it has to do with the cooldown on the bondings. The thing is that powersharing by itself is not really that strong, it is the interaction between powersharing and bondings. Ill try tho

    Good scenario;
    Companion gift is off.
    You powershare to your companion.
    Companion gift is on.
    You get back that power for the duration of companion's gift.

    Bad scenario;
    Companion gift is on.
    You powershare your companion.
    Since companion gift is already on, he wont give you that power.

    Again, that just a simple explanation. If anyone wants to try and explained with clarity, I wouldn't take it as an offense lol



  • arcanjo86
    arcanjo86 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,092 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    when bondigs activate dc cast aa and shares 33% the sum of her normal power +the companion gifts power boost, if he cast again aa after this boost it wont scale again.
  • diloul31
    diloul31 Member Posts: 250 Arc User
    Thx a ton gerverpanda !
  • strathkin
    strathkin Member Posts: 1,250 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    We fully understand how big of a topic this is which is why we wanted to get the details out early to get feedback on all of the changes. And feedback certainly has been given! Although these types of topics can get heated due to the passion players have for this game, it is a good thing to see such involvement and discussion from our player base.

    There are valid points being brought up through out this discussion. Reading over all of this feedback, from multiple sources, has allowed us to take a look at different perspectives on the bonding issues. Bonding runestones do need an adjustment and we'd like to allow for other companion and runestone choices to not be so underwhelming compared to a bonding companion.

    Many of the points brought forward by you is that a 50% up time changes too many dynamics which will drive many players to feeling that an augment pet is the only correct route to play. That is not our intention and not where we want the game to go.

    We are going to switch the up time to being able to be 100% (cooldown and up time will match). This will be with the lowered percentages that we presented and seems like the best way to address many of the concerns while still bringing bonding power more in line with where it should be.

    Also, we are going to look into switching the offensive effect of Eldritch Runestones to match the defensive effect, meaning that either slot will grant the stat gain (it does mean the AP functionality of the Eldritch Runestone offensive slot is going away). This allows players who would like to use an augment pet with Eldritch Runestones to have a choice in which augment pet to use.

    The concerns on dungeon runs/difficulty in the game with any changes to bonding runestones is not unnoticed and something we have been paying attention to internally throughout all of this. We have been doing internal testing on this and look forward to feedback during preview on this very topic.

    Oh this is indeed good news I think many will agree with. While I tried to be supportive of the vast majority of proposed changes recognizing bondings as you correctly stated needed a correction especially if Enchantments & Runestones are going to Rank 14. I did privately write I thought the 50% uptime / cooldown was a bit harsh and should be improved but had not expected it go back to 100% -- so this will be very well received by the vast majority. I think it will make most people happy and get on board will most of the coming changes. :)

    I think it's also excellent news most people will also have other Runestones to consider upgrading with viable options depending on their class, feat path choices and companions & the skills their using. Bondings will remain a highly desirable options for the vast majority that have Zen or the rare lockbox companion that included them, but users with specific builds could now benefit more by pairing 1 or 2 bondings possibly with something else. <3

    So the one remaining question is will Training Runestone be updated at some point possibly with a new Name or even later see new Runestone introduced to expand options for companions with new Offense/Defense benefit that is viable for different companions? <font color=gold>Far more would like to see Training Runes renamed or 1 or 2 new Runes to expand companion options for offense / defense skills. I'd even love to see Runestones catch up to some of the new enchantments introduced like Brutal, Cruel, or others introduced with slightly improved multiple buff categories.

    These may be further out but hopefully they are being considered.

    Today is an excellent day! <3o:)
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • strathkin
    strathkin Member Posts: 1,250 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    Just gutted after reading yesterdays planned changes. Getting bondings to the levels they are at hasn't come easy and these proposed changes make you rethink putting another cent or time towards the game. Introduced friends to game and they have been enjoying it and opening their wallets for you. I'll wait and see what happens but feel glad vip less than 50 days left.

    While I fully realize why they needed some corrective action be taken on Bondings because of expanding enchantments and runestones out to Rank 14. After speaking to you I also understood most your concern was largely around the UPTIME nerf.

    As you'll see above I was surprised they took it that far wanting to also nerf the uptime which if you now see above @noworries#8859 identified yesterday they've since held several discussions internally and revised it back to being much closer to 100% uptime for many companions.

    I do hope this addresses your concerns fingerlickngood. o:)