Just for the rest of the people who are/if going to read this:
1. It can be easily shown how fey has 100% uptime.
No, it can't in terms of it's effectiveness on each possible damaging property. It needs activation and that means it's not 100% active per used encounter. A spell or a tick needs to happen first prior to its activation. This means that it's not going to hit for 100% of times. In fact, it won't hit at all if you use at-will prior to the encounter.
3. A differential test should be done either with fixed damage weapons or enough times to account for the RNG. Given that we are not in statistics class and don't want to do p-value and hypothesis testing, we just use fixed weapons damage. A test without those proves that the game has RNG on damage, which fortunately we already know but not much else.
This falls short of any logic given that the attacks are utilized on the target practice dolls more often than not, and not in the real events. Not every test type is good for what it presents. There are downsides to everything and using flat weapon damage is good for testing only certain aspects of a build but not the entirety of it nor the DPS potentiality of it. DPS = / = DMG.
4. To prove that fey is better than vorpal when CS is higher than a certian point, one doesn't need to prove that Feytouched works on at-will. There is no modus ponens between the two.
Fey doesn't get activated by at-wills. The evidence that it doesn't means that it doesn't work with 100% uptime, nor is the first tick of any particular encounter affected by Feytouched enchantment. This affects potential DPS in various situations depending upon variations such as enemy type, positioning of the user who attacks, probable orientation, rotation, buff/debuff value et cetera. This implies and strongly suggests that Fey is more useful on builds which may utilize stronger buff/debuff options as well as people who utilize better party compositions. For people who run AoE Renegade builds with lower Recovery Fey doesn't necessarily translate into more DPS in actuality despite offering similar potentiality to that of a Vorpal.
5. When someone claims that their math is correct, it's actually will be great to show said math. Math usually comes in the form of equations, numbers and functions. Claims and assertions are not math, nor ACT logs or excels, tables, etc...
ACT logs are pretty much math, and for what I used it it was completely correct and spot-on regardless of me not making a formula to prove that Feytouched doesn't work on at-will casting. Providing a formula for something that's not even applied would be the true modus ponen and at any point of the discussion it's absolutely unnecessary since DPS has many variations included and not strictly speaking attacking dolls.
As I wrote, DPS depends upon
- Bugs - Types of enemies - Effective DPS - Managing distance - Using actual weapons that you will use in a fight, instead of fixed damage numbers which are not part of it. - Buffs
Thanks for trying.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Weapon enchantment damage is not effected by enemy behavior.
Please, do not take sentences out of the context, especially when the very context is couple more words down the sentence you chose to color in red.
Damage Per Second meaning DPS. Not Damage.
Am I the only one who makes a solid distinction between the two around here?
"There are instances to which Fey and Vorpal behave differently in response to the Monster behavior and availability for the DPS."
It's not a hard phrase, either. Dee Pee Es. DPS. It's not just Fey or Vorpal. It's variables, monster behavior, player behavior etc.
I like how you're so keen on trying to prove me wrong that you completely disregard any context of what I'm stating. It's so simple it's actually funny how so many of you mistook it for Damage itself, even though I never spoke about that.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Just for the rest of the people who are/if going to read this:
1. It can be easily shown how fey has 100% uptime.
No, it can't in terms of it's effectiveness on each possible damaging property. It needs activation and that means it's not 100% active per used encounter. A spell or a tick needs to happen first prior to its activation. This means that it's not going to hit for 100% of times. In fact, it won't hit at all if you use at-will prior to the encounter.
Bolded, not correct, check. Encounter and entity based encounters are not the same. It's trivial to show 100% uptime of fey.
3. A differential test should be done either with fixed damage weapons or enough times to account for the RNG. Given that we are not in statistics class and don't want to do p-value and hypothesis testing, we just use fixed weapons damage. A test without those proves that the game has RNG on damage, which fortunately we already know but not much else.
This falls short of any logic given that the attacks are utilized on the target practice dolls more often than not, and not in the real events. Not every test type is good for what it presents. There are downsides to everything and using flat weapon damage is good for testing only certain aspects of a build but not the entirety of it nor the DPS potentiality of it. DPS = / = DMG.
Practice dolls are irrelevant and were not mentioned anywhere, fixed weapons damage will always create a more reliable test versus a random damage weapons. In the case where the difference between the enchantments is inside the RNG error, the test without fixed weapons damage is not a test but just a bunch of irrelevant numbers, off-course, if someone inclined so, they can prove a statistically valid test, null & alternate hypotheses and the number of test to get in the p-value.
4. To prove that fey is better than vorpal when CS is higher than a certian point, one doesn't need to prove that Feytouched works on at-will. There is no modus ponens between the two.
Fey doesn't get activated by at-wills. The evidence that it doesn't means that it doesn't work with 100% uptime, nor is the first tick of any particular encounter affected by Feytouched enchantment.
Doesn't activated by factor X doesn't negate that it can be 100% uptime. As I've said earlier, 100% uptime is trivial to show. Please go and check how fey works. Entity encounters are not all encounters.
This affects potential DPS in various situations depending upon variations such as enemy type, positioning of the user who attacks, probable orientation, rotation,
This implies and strongly suggests that Fey is more useful on builds which may utilize stronger buff/debuff options as well as people who utilize better party compositions.
For people who run AoE Renegade builds with lower Recovery Fey doesn't necessarily translate into more DPS in actuality despite offering similar potentiality to that of a Vorpal.
Again, this is based on the above assumptions, which are not correct.
5. When someone claims that their math is correct, it's actually will be great to show said math. Math usually comes in the form of equations, numbers and functions. Claims and assertions are not math, nor ACT logs or excels, tables, etc...
ACT logs are pretty much math,
No. ACT log is not math. It's only a log. a list. A grocery list is also a list. You can apply math on it and know by how much you spent on your shopping spree vs your last time, but a log by itself is not math, nor as was presented proves any relation between vorpal and fey. A grocery list can prove that you bought milk, and that milk is more expansive than a steak, if it was the discussion but it wasn't. A list of random number of milk bottles for a random price each, and a list of a random number of steaks for a random price each, is neither math, nor a proof, especially when the alleged difference is within the random scale.
and for what I used it it was completely correct and spot-on regardless of me not making a formula to prove that Feytouched doesn't work on at-will casting.
Feytouched doesn't trigger on at-will casting, it does affect at-wills, but that besides the point, as it is not what was required from you to prove, nor is math.
Providing a formula for something that's not even applied would be the true modus ponen and at any point of the discussion it's absolutely unnecessary since DPS has many variations included and not strictly speaking attacking dolls.
I think you misapply the term modus ponens here. Dolls are irrelevant, the discussion is what yields more damage, fey or vorpal, proving fey is not triggered by at-wills doesn't prove nor disprove directly neither claim.
- Using actual weapons that you will use in a fight, instead of fixed damage numbers which are not part of it.
Incorrect, there is no difference between fey and vorpal. The difference between weapons is if a person can draw a conclusion from the result. Hence, meaningless ACT log, and meaningful ACT log.
There is no difference between fey and vorpal for the discussion here, any and all duffs or buffs benefit Fey secondary hit and debuff diminish Vorpal added debuff. So while both of those factors were not discussed as they are relatively small, they are both in favor of Fey.
Yes, I've even tried to explain how the damage formula works, stats interacts, and the debuff calculated, but I can only bring the horse to the fountain, can't force anyone to drink (an idiom).
Post edited by micky1p00 on
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Weapon enchantment damage is not effected by enemy behavior.
Please, do not take sentences out of the context, especially when the very context is couple more words down the sentence you chose to color in red.
Damage Per Second meaning DPS. Not Damage.
Am I the only one who makes a solid distinction between the two around here?
"There are instances to which Fey and Vorpal behave differently in response to the Monster behavior and availability for the DPS."
It's not a hard phrase, either. Dee Pee Es. DPS. It's not just Fey or Vorpal. It's variables, monster behavior, player behavior etc.
I like how you're so keen on trying to prove me wrong that you completely disregard any context of what I'm stating. It's so simple it's actually funny how so many of you mistook it for Damage itself, even though I never spoke about that.
You do know that DPS is DAMAGE PER SECOND..... You know that thing where you take the total damage over the measured time and divide by the measured time in seconds.
We compare those two enchantments in the discussion, any affect on the player will affect equally both, hence it's irrelevant.
If you think that everyone wrong and you are right, it's perhaps a time to reconsider either what you write or how you write it.
1
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
- Bugs - Types of enemies - Effective DPS - Managing distance - Using actual weapons that you will use in a fight, instead of fixed damage numbers which are not part of it. - Buffs
off course if this is some random and not related to the discussion statement about what affects damage, then ok, but you only say that you need to account for all of the above to actually prove something. In this case you need to equalize your variables, to compare two enchantments, which you didn't do, and this is why your ACT log / image doesn't bring any information for the comparison of fey and vorpal
You're honestly trying too hard at this point instead to simply admit that you mistook Flat Damage bonus for DPS and went on and on about how I'm wrong for talking something you wrongly assumed I'm talking about. You don't even understand the Effective DPS and at this point given your malicious intent I really can't see and logic or reason why I should explain it to you, especially after witnessing your obsessive behavior where you have this fundamental need to be correct at all cost, even when you made a mistake of purposely misreading and taking things out of the context following the same agenda.
The way you dissected my previous comment and then made wrongful assumptions upon what each of those mean tells me that you have way too much time at your disposal and at this point you're arguing pure semantics on topics which you're once again taking out of the context trying, at all cost, to appear as if you are correct.
No, flat damage is not the same as Damage Per Second and I'm sincerely sorry that you mistook it for one, but at this point you really should drop the act of prefaced superiority over the topic since it's really, really tiresome to talk about it for the third time.
I can already see a hasty generalization fallacy followed by ad populum fallacy coated in Dunning–Kruger effect solely to escape the plausibility of a personal (your) mistake, thus blaming the person who posted (me) of not being "clear enough" due to your own personal mistake of not realizing the difference between DPS and Flat damage boost. I can't be blamed for people assuming that DPS = DMG. That would be silly. I also can't be blamed for people's assumptions regarding the format of my posts content nor that it should meet a certain criteria for it to be valid or appealing. Those are pretty much preposterous accusations to which I'm not obliged to succumb simply because someone finds it more useful or expects things on a silver platter. Work your way with it or at least ask and I shall try to explain it to the best of my abilities if something's unclear.
I wish that there was a more purposeful argument which you, or others, may use against me in the given discussion(s?) so that you actually have a more valid purpose of a topic to discuss or whatever, but that really isn't the case due to a fact everyone who tried to explain something I'm very familiar with was making a grave error of not reading properly and I won't allow myself to be swayed by topics on nothing less but my errors(?) which I never started nor talked about in the first place to which you want to apply some form of negativism or tell me how I was wrong without actually proving it or, rather, proving it on the premise of something that wasn't even part of what I spoke about in the first place.
Appealing to the audience as a form of logical fallacy and a faulty tactic also won't work since regardless of what you state and regardless of whether it may hold any truth, it does not reflect on what I wrote to any extent. As such it is not relevant to what I spoke about. When I explain this on several occasions and ask people to reread what I wrote, pretty much nobody did.
This was fascinating to me, so of course I continued just for the sake of seeing who wants to be "most correct" in trying to prove to me that I'm wrong.
Assumptions are bad. I hope that people have learnt something from this tiresome writing exposition by all parties involved. I think that the lesson would be - read carefully and think carefully. And, of course, DPS = / = DMG. It's not the same, it can't be the same so don't even try to prove that it's the same thing. DPS uses many variables and enchantments behave differently in various variable situations to which the benefits of Fey and Vorpal will differ greatly.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
You're honestly trying too hard at this point instead to simply admit that you mistook Flat Damage bonus for DPS and went on and on about how I'm wrong for talking something you wrongly assumed I'm talking about. You don't even understand the Effective DPS and at this point given your malicious intent I really can't see and logic or reason why I should explain it to you, especially after witnessing your obsessive behavior where you have this fundamental need to be correct at all cost, even when you made a mistake of purposely misreading and taking things out of the context following the same agenda.
The way you dissected my previous comment and then made wrongful assumptions upon what each of those mean tells me that you have way too much time at your disposal and at this point you're arguing pure semantics on topics which you're once again taking out of the context trying, at all cost, to appear as if you are correct.
No, flat damage is not the same as Damage Per Second and I'm sincerely sorry that you mistook it for one, but at this point you really should drop the act of prefaced superiority over the topic since it's really, really tiresome to talk about it for the third time.
I can already see a hasty generalization fallacy followed by ad populum fallacy coated in Dunning–Kruger effect solely to escape the plausibility of a personal (your) mistake, thus blaming the person who posted (me) of not being "clear enough" due to your own personal mistake of not realizing the difference between DPS and Flat damage boost. I can't be blamed for people assuming that DPS = DMG. That would be silly. I also can't be blamed for people's assumptions regarding the format of my posts content nor that it should meet a certain criteria for it to be valid or appealing. Those are pretty much preposterous accusations to which I'm not obliged to succumb simply because someone finds it more useful or expects things on a silver platter. Work your way with it or at least ask and I shall try to explain it to the best of my abilities if something's unclear.
I wish that there was a more purposeful argument which you, or others, may use against me in the given discussion(s?) so that you actually have a more valid purpose of a topic to discuss or whatever, but that really isn't the case due to a fact everyone who tried to explain something I'm very familiar with was making a grave error of not reading properly and I won't allow myself to be swayed by topics on nothing less but my errors(?) which I never started nor talked about in the first place to which you want to apply some form of negativism or tell me how I was wrong without actually proving it or, rather, proving it on the premise of something that wasn't even part of what I spoke about in the first place.
Appealing to the audience as a form of logical fallacy and a faulty tactic also won't work since regardless of what you state and regardless of whether it may hold any truth, it does not reflect on what I wrote to any extent. As such it is not relevant to what I spoke about. When I explain this on several occasions and ask people to reread what I wrote, pretty much nobody did.
This was fascinating to me, so of course I continued just for the sake of seeing who wants to be "most correct" in trying to prove to me that I'm wrong.
Assumptions are bad. I hope that people have learnt something from this tiresome writing exposition by all parties involved. I think that the lesson would be - read carefully and think carefully. And, of course, DPS = / = DMG. It's not the same, it can't be the same so don't even try to prove that it's the same thing. DPS uses many variables and enchantments behave differently in various variable situations to which the benefits of Fey and Vorpal will differ greatly.
1. You were talking about tact? I didn't mention your personality in any form or way in any post. 2. You may want to count the words you used an I used, you will find the disparity in time and useless prose is in my favor. 3. There is no issue of damage vs DPS, it looks like you are out of any actual valid argument so you are desperately looking for an excuse, feel free to use DPS whenever I've used damage in this specific case, to be exact, take the damage and divide it by 1 second or whatever time is appropriate, I trust you can do the conversion. More so the averaged overtime nullifies any issues of first hit and activation by entity encounter.
"DPS uses many variables and enchantments behave differently in various variable situations to which the benefits of Fey and Vorpal will differ greatly."
And all this as was tiresomely repeated, is simply not correct. All effects on one enchant will effect the second in the same way when discussed as critical severity vs 20% buff.
Take your DPS, separate it to the separate instances of damage, luckily for you it's a discrete function, and find any difference in damage between fey and vorpal. The issue is you still can't. The second issue is that if DPS has a difference between the enchants, then the discrete damage must have one too, as one is made from the other, but you yet to show any such difference.
Saying that one is familiar with a topic, and it being so when the proof is hand weaving and random pictures doesn't make it so. What exactly a screenshot of critical hits in foundry proves? Or several attacks with fey without activating fey first? Maybe we should test vorpal with 0 crit chance?
Or several attacks with fey without activating fey first? Maybe we should test vorpal with 0 crit chance?
It's hard to admit that you've made a mistake. I understand, you've some reputation to uphold or whatever. It's funny to me that you're trying that hard simply because you've a grudge against me.
Flat Damage is not DPS. Can you prove that flat damage equals to DPS even though those are two absolutely different things?
Learn the difference between Effective DPS versus Paper DPS. This is important.
Also, addressing you on a personal note is perfectly valid even though I usually adhere a stamp of malicious intent in such behavior. In truth, this starts the moment there's no more discussion and any and all arguments are exhausted (at least those that matter regardless of how silly it may or may not appear). I do not attack your personality, however. I think that you have nothing on your disposal aside from trying to somehow prove that I'm wrong by stating that flat damage is, in fact, DPS. This is simply untrue no matter how you look at it and that argument you've lost. However, at this point you're simply being bored and this is my firm belief. You'd prolong any form of a discussion just for the sake of arguing. Count me out on the further notice. I do not prefer vanity over arguments.
Unrelated : Also, can you actually test a critting power without any % of a crit chance? I don't think it's possible to do it since by default you're bound to have at least a few points of Crit chance due to the way game mechanics work, unless there's an option to turn off ability score points.
Related : Also, yes, the less Critical Chance there is, less useful Vorpal is. That's a perfectly valid argument since Fey will work better on all powers which aren't critting. In a Thaumaturge build Vorpal pales in comparison to the favor of Fey enchantment.
I sincerely hope that any form of a discussion is over.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Or several attacks with fey without activating fey first? Maybe we should test vorpal with 0 crit chance?
It's hard to admit that you've made a mistake. I understand, you've some reputation to uphold or whatever. It's funny to me that you're trying that hard simply because you've a grudge against me.
Flat Damage is not DPS. Can you prove that flat damage equals to DPS even though those are two absolutely different things?
Learn the difference between Effective DPS versus Paper DPS. This is important.
Also, addressing you on a personal note is perfectly valid even though I usually adhere a stamp of malicious intent in such behavior. In truth, this starts the moment there's no more discussion and any and all arguments are exhausted (at least those that matter regardless of how silly it may or may not appear). I do not attack your personality, however. I think that you have nothing on your disposal aside from trying to somehow prove that I'm wrong by stating that flat damage is, in fact, DPS. This is simply untrue no matter how you look at it and that argument you've lost. However, at this point you're simply being bored and this is my firm belief. You'd prolong any form of a discussion just for the sake of arguing. Count me out on the further notice. I do not prefer vanity over arguments.
Unrelated : Also, can you actually test a critting power without any % of a crit chance? I don't think it's possible to do it since by default you're bound to have at least a few points of Crit chance due to the way game mechanics work, unless there's an option to turn off ability score points.
Related : Also, yes, the less Critical Chance there is, less useful Vorpal is. That's a perfectly valid argument since Fey will work better on all powers which aren't critting. In a Thaumaturge build Vorpal pales in comparison to the favor of Fey enchantment.
I sincerely hope that any form of a discussion is over.
I don't do grudges, it's you who has personal issues here.
offcourse there is no discussion, you can't answer any argument so you moved to personal attacks. Try to actually address the points, though you know you can't, so you keep trying any other way to derail the actual discussion, from personal attacks to passive-aggressive signatures. Luckily most readers with more than 2 brain cells can see right through this sham and understand that you are just stuck with no valid argument, and trying to wiggle yourself out of the vorpal hole you made.
Now you found your DPS / Damage strawman and trying to murder it with extreme prejudice, which is lovely, but as I wrote before, it has no relevance what so ever, my argument stands with DPS, and with damage, convert by dividing or multiplying by time at your leisure. If you don't know how to covert one to the other, it's not a shame, ask and I'll explain.
You may use ACT as a helper tool, it has damage column, time column, and total encounter time. You may notice that the 3 have the simple relation of multiplication and division. Can't be simpler, but do please account for all the random variables when you compare two specifics, if you still didn't understand, comparing two enchantments while using random weapon damage, will not give valid conclusions. Not in DPS, not in Damage, not in flying pigs.
off course you like it be over, as you can't prove your argument, you can't address any of the counter argument provided and all you have is personal attacks and unrelated nonsense.
Perhaps you should post another meaningless image of foundry crits, or another ACT with random damage. Just you know to at least look like you are close the direction but only shows lack of understanding how the basic mechanics in the game works. BTW about that, if you need help on that front, ask away, I can link you some resources that may help and explain that part.
PS, I don't need to prove you anything, it is you who is trying to prove that vorpal is better at the given critical severity of over X as compared to fey. Which you are failing to do, trying repeatedly to assert that mob behavior is any form or way relevant to the difference between those enchants.
Because you are stuck at irrelevant things, Mob behavior doesn't have any influence on the difference between vorpal and fey
Post edited by micky1p00 on
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited April 2018
When you test something anywhere in life, you should apply what is known as the scientific method. The basic premise of which can be summed up by this picture:
In neverwinter terms, the important part is isolating variables. When you test crit, you don't test it in a combat field with 1000 buffs up and infinitely many variables, because if even 1 of those variables changes between the 1 test and the other, it contaminates the results. People don't find and report bugs in this game by doing, "dungeon run tests" they find them by isolating variables. What matters when you are testing a vorpal enchantment?
Nothing else matters or influences the results. So, for accurate results, you get rid of everything except the important factors. Once you understand how everything behaves in a vacuum, you then expand your tests to see how they behave together, which is how we came to the "damage formula" in the first place. Quite frankly, that pretty picture with all the damage procs in the foundry or the act log with variable weapon damage is meaningless, it isn't how you test something scientifically and it doesn't yield any useful results, because you cannot, as that picture states you must be able to do, "replicate the results." If you want to test things properly in neverwinter, here is a guide.
I don't do grudges, it's you who has personal issues here.
Disagree. You obviously have a grudge from another topic. If you have any problem with me on a personal level I'd really like that you write me a private message and we'll see how things work from there. There is really no point to pollute this topic anymore with a discussion that's long overdue.
Your points do not concern me since I am not the one who doesn't understand the difference between what constitutes Flat damage bonus versus an effective DPS. Furthermore, the points presented in no way address anything I stated and as such I see no reason to address them.
from personal attacks to passive-aggressive signatures.
My signature is perfectly valid and I do not understand why it would bother you. It should stand to reason that it's appropriately present since apparently there are people who do not understand basic MMORPG terminology or DPS terminology to begin with that's common to many video-games nowadays. I like my signature. If you come at me attacking me on the premise of a signature, maybe you should reconsider your position in the "discussion".
Luckily most readers with more than 2 brain cells can see right through this sham and understand that you are just stuck with no valid argument, and trying to wiggle yourself out of the vorpal hole you made.
This is a logical fallacy and an apparent attempt at ad populum, due to a fact you have no real argument at your disposal and you want to use the voices of many for the sake of being correct, when you were clearly shown to be wrong in both assumptions and prolongation of an ineffective argument, if any. Furthermore, I do not like that you're insulting people who actually see reason in what I posted, nor any other viewer for that matter. I find the whole discussion with YOU absolutely pointless since you do not want to admit you were wrong to assume that Damage equals DPS. I'll repeat it to you, Flat Damage does not equal DPS. You are simply put - wrong. You do not want to admit it, you take things out of the context and proceed to argue with me due to holding a grudge from another topic referring to 2xDC nerf.
DPS does not equate flat Damage. This is a perfectly valid and logically astute argument which is evident in all of my posts previously written. It can't be a strawman. You're equating DPS with Damage. You've yet to prove this. I do not stand wrong in anything I've written, lol. You may proceed to be angry or whatever. I am not the one who was comparing the Base damage ability of either Vorpal or Fey. I see no point doing that since I already know the outcome. In fact, I stated that Fey wins in most situations and the real discussion ended when Sharpedge stated that there's a slight difference in modicum on the base level between the two. The discussion ended on a difference of opinion on the premise of gameplay, and it was a good way to end a discussion. We agree to disagree and that's absolutely fine and valid. That's all there is to it. But no, you had to come here and waste each of our time due to your own vanity. Way to go and actually derail a thread.
comparing two enchantments while using random weapon damage, will not give valid conclusions. Not in DPS, not in Damage, not in flying pigs.
Completely untrue. All you need is appropriate time span and the difference may become apparent over the prolonged sessions of playing. Perhaps you need a lesson in ACT use? The flat damage calculations are simply there for the sake of concise numbers. ACT use and general idea of flat damage is purely Paper DPS. Effective DPS takes in all the variables such as party composition, time of the encounter recovery, position of the mobs in response to the ability used, maximizing the potentiality of the build for the sake of effectiveness. This is not Paper DPS, but real event in-game which calculates and translates into Effective DPS. Argument is that Fey's effective DPS isn't worth using on an AoE build whose primary role is to hunt in OMU both due to the AD needed for a proper Feytouched enchantment (starting from at least Pure, but Trans is more desired) in response to how effective it actually is when there's no Pally around to increase its potentiality. So, in actuality, Vorpal fits my build way better than Fey ever would and I did have Fey enchantment which I found to be most effectively used (it's potential was the highest) at the moment of Boss fights of any kind. If you have any questions, whatsoever, do ask on private message.
off course you like it be over, as you can't prove your argument, you can't address any of the counter argument provided and all you have is personal attacks and unrelated nonsense.
This is just your opinion which doesn't follow any logic given that I've already written more than my fair share. I needn't address any argument more than stating that it was nothing more than preaching to the choir by everyone involved who were disregarding my point of view, to which eventually Sharpedge did agree upon but found it irrelevant in his opinion since Omu hunts are not his primary orientation when playing this video-game. This was fair and on-point. The difference between Fey and Vorpal was concluded to be fairly insignificant, unless there's a pally in equation followed by buffs and a build which revolves around using non-critting abilities. That's pretty much it.
Perhaps you should post another meaningless image of foundry crits
It is not meaningless, it shows the potency of Storm Spell in contrast to the Vorpal use proving that Vorpal isn't a HAMSTER enchantment to use and it's one of the ways to build decent damage for easy money atm.
The damage wasn't random. It portrayed Vorpal's superiority when using At-will in contrast to the Storm Spell use and proved that Fey pales in comparison. It is actually a valid portrayal of how similar they are for any build which doesn't revolve around a lot of Recovery specifically for AoE CW rene build. It also shows that Fey isn't BiS for each and every CW build.
Just you know to at least look like you are close the direction but only shows lack of understanding how the basic mechanics in the game works. BTW about that, if you need help on that front, ask away, I can link you some resources that may help and explain that part.
I'm not the one claiming to be able to make tests with 0% crit chance on critting abilities. If you need any help with the mechanics, feel free to ask me instead. We'd start with explanation what is Paper DPS versus Effective DPS.
PS, I don't need to prove you anything, it is you who is trying to prove that vorpal is better at the given critical severity of over X as compared to fey. Which you are failing to do, trying repeatedly to assert that mob behavior is any form or way relevant to the difference between those enchants.
I already proved it with the act log, stating that Fey doesn't have 100% uptime in contrast to ability uses, as such the DPS may fluctuate. It is absolutely insignificant on many scenarios, but can be of help in situations where there's simply not enough time to use an encounter and you need a daily asap, such as Oppressive Force. I also proved that Fey is not instantaneous and needs activation prior to it's use. In my case I prefer to collect a lot of enemies and then use all my abilities as a CW, both due to the Recovery and abilities which work in closer proximity.
Mob behavior doesn't have any influence on the difference between vorpal and fey
I never stated that. Again you're taking sentences out of the context. If you quote the exact sentence I'm sure that you will find the magic phrase "DPS" in it. What I did state is that Enchantment use will differ in regards to how DPS will show so it's not the same if you attack the boss in a dungeon or enemies in Rothe valley. For instance, Fey will work better on Bosses and it's a clear choice when fighting bosses. In a boss fight the effective DPS of Fey use will drastically increase it's effectiveness, which can only rise furthermore with buffs and debuffs. It's effectiveness will be far better on single-target uses such as Disintegrate and Icy Knife, although using Oppressive Force with Pally around and MoF build would be far more beneficial due to the attacking pattern of mechanics. Vorpal pales in comparison to any single target oriented build since it's not utilizing Storm Spell potentiality which works the best due to the tick options.
Thanks for trying yet again.
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So, for accurate results, you get rid of everything except the important factors.
You're assuming as well... Answer me this, please. Do I need to use flat damage on a weapon for the sake of proving that a mechanic (that's unrelated to the damage numbers at all points) is going to change the result on the use of at-will in comparison to Fey and Vorpal?
I find it astounding that people are trying to present that as an important factor when clearly it wasn't even the point to constitute the difference of a damage but, instead, the lack of mechanism activation.
Damage does not equal Activation and mechanics use. As such the damage is absolutely irrelevant whether I use 100 damage, 150 damage, 32492387645 damage or 1 damage. The result will always go in favor of the inability of the at-will to activate Feytouched weapon.
As such it's not absolutely mandatory to use flat damage. The only valid reason to use it is purely for the cosmetics and appeal to the audience, which I do not find mandatory whatsoever, lol. My point still stands sagacious in this regard and it also follows the scientific method at all times. Can you prove otherwise?
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
I never stated that. Again you're taking sentences out of the context. If you quote the exact sentence I'm sure that you will find the magic phrase "DPS" in it. What I did state is that Enchantment use will differ in regards to how DPS will show so it's not the same if you attack the boss in a dungeon or enemies in Rothe valley. For instance, Fey will work better on Bosses and it's a clear choice when fighting bosses. In a boss fight the effective DPS of Fey use will drastically increase it's effectiveness, which can only rise furthermore with buffs and debuffs. It's effectiveness will be far better on single-target uses such as Disintegrate and Icy Knife, although using Oppressive Force with Pally around and MoF build would be far more beneficial due to the attacking pattern of mechanics. Vorpal pales in comparison to any single target oriented build since it's not utilizing Storm Spell potentiality which works the best due to the tick options.
You do understand that DPS is included into "any"....
Lets try again, slowly, there is no difference if you attack one target, a boss, a minion, or a horde of bosses, or the entire foundry minion legion. The difference between fey and vorpal will remain the same, given the rest is constant.
Here is where you state that mobs have influence on the enchantment behavior:
They aren't different here. This is 1 of the most simple concepts in this game, critical severity. It is very easy to test how it works and it behaves no differently in a vacuum to how it does in reality. The types of mobs you are facing does not change how it works, nor does distance and nor does weapon damage. If you look at how basic division works, weapon damage at top and weapon damage at the bottom means the net result is weapon damage has no influence on the outcome.
There are instances to which Fey and Vorpal behave differently in response to the Monster behavior and availability for the DPS. In shorter terms : DPS will drop for either when facing different mobs with a different damaging capabilities. It is not the same attacking a boss with Fey or attacking mobs in rothe valley. There are also instances of bugged up encounters which may or may not work in combination to each of the weapon enchantments. We can't just turn a blind eye to that variable.
Please do expand what mobs different damaging capabilities influence the difference between fey and vorpal.
Fey doesn't get activated by at-wills. The evidence that it doesn't means that it doesn't work with 100% uptime, nor is the first tick of any particular encounter affected by Feytouched enchantment. This affects potential DPS in various situations depending upon variations such as enemy type, positioning of the user who attacks, probable orientation, rotation, buff/debuff value et cetera. This implies and strongly suggests that Fey is more useful on builds which may utilize stronger buff/debuff options as well as people who utilize better party compositions. For people who run AoE Renegade builds with lower Recovery Fey doesn't necessarily translate into more DPS in actuality despite offering similar potentiality to that of a Vorpal.
1. Doesn't activated by at wills DOES NOT means it doesn't have 100% uptime!
As I've said, it's trivial to show fey at 100% uptime.
2. Marked in red. Nothing of the stated affect the difference in DPS between Vorpal and fey.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
So, for accurate results, you get rid of everything except the important factors.
You're assuming as well... Answer me this, please. Do I need to use flat damage on a weapon for the sake of proving that a mechanic (that's unrelated to the damage numbers at all points) is going to change the result on the use of at-will in comparison to Fey and Vorpal?
I find it astounding that people are trying to present that as an important factor when clearly it wasn't even the point to constitute the difference of a damage but, instead, the lack of mechanism activation.
Damage does not equal Activation and mechanics use. As such the damage is absolutely irrelevant whether I use 100 damage, 150 damage, 32492387645 damage or 1 damage. The result will always go in favor of the inability of the at-will to activate Feytouched weapon.
As such it's not absolutely mandatory to use flat damage. The only valid reason to use it is purely for the cosmetics and appeal to the audience, which I do not find mandatory whatsoever, lol. My point still stands sagacious in this regard and it also follows the scientific method at all times. Can you prove otherwise?
BiS on bosses, not BiS on mob clearing in single-player oriented content.
For instance Lightning is BiS for regular dungeon clearing.
Everything is "BiS" for something, depending upon the situation.
In the best possible party scenario with buff/debuff ratios Frost is BiS if nobody else is using it.
I do not see Fey as a better option for mob clearing on a SpellStorm CW, sorry. It's not fast enough in contrast to Vorpal that's instantaneous.
Let me put this way :
Fey's attack of StormSpell :
Vorpal's attack of StormSpell :
Point is that damage of a crit is supereffective. Disregard debuff effectiveness. Numbers are doubled in all instances since Vorpal affects the Feature.
Fey gives insignificant boost to the damage ratio of a StormSpell in such instances. Fey gives significant boost to the Aura of Courage which may outperform StormSpell by quite a margin.
What exactly does it show without using constant damage base? Nothing in this context.
Statement : I agree that Feytouched wins in almost all situations for hi-end game builds, especially in dungeon-oriented content. This is not even a topic that should be discussed in the first place. I wrote this on several occasions. Please, note that. Statement : I do not find Feytouched as useful in my build and the difference is drastically evident. Over the time that may or may not change, but for the time being Vorpal is the clear winner.
Here is where you state that mobs have influence on the enchantment behavior:
Different damaging capabilities referring to the uses of single target or AoE abilities of the player. Not "different abilities of mobs" which will somehow influence weapon enchantments themselves.
Related : Although, the latter wouldn't surprise me. I have experienced a bug with Transcendent Elven Battle Armor enchantment and the use of the Steal Time on spell mastery. The Enchantment messes with the speed buff to my knowledge, although it could mess with entire Spell Mastery slot. I already reported this. To my knowledge I do not know of any bug which happens with either Fey or Vorpal in regards to the powers by Monsters, i.e. their interchangeable powers themselves.
Please do expand what mobs different damaging capabilities influence the difference between fey and vorpal.
The damage will increase FOR THE PLAYER on bosses with the use of Fey enchantment and single-target output build. Already stated this at least 5 times in the topic in the past 2-3 days. I find that it's evident I speak from the Player's perspective, unless I really need to express that? lol
What exactly does it show without using constant damage base? Nothing in this context.
I wasn't referring to that at all when speaking about math. Now that you mention it, actually, it does show the Effective DPS from my prolonged situations with using Fey and Vorpal and shows just how much more effective Vorpal is for my build and the purpose I'm giving it. Makes Vorpal BiS in my situation for the intent that I want to use it. Nothing more, nothing less.
This time around I actually want to thank you for asking instead of assuming what I'm speaking about. I found the last comment of yours far more enjoyable both to read and to answer to.
Post edited by c1k4ml3kc3 on
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I find the whole discussion with YOU absolutely pointless since you do not want to admit you were wrong to assume that Damage equals DPS. I'll repeat it to you, Flat Damage does not equal DPS. You are simply put - wrong. You do not want to admit it, you take things out of the context and proceed to argue with me due to holding a grudge from another topic referring to 2xDC nerf.
Hmm, I've clearly said that DPS is damage divided by time, you are free to convert from one to another. It looks like it's you who doesn't understand the difference between the two. Lets go simple in this too, you take a lot of discrete damage instances add them up, divide by the time window you summed over, and viola DPS.
Now here is the modus ponenes if there is difference in damage in the same window between two tests there will be difference in DPS. And vice versa if there is a difference in DPS in two windows of measurement, there must be difference in at least one instance of damage. (caveat is that the difference is monotonic and damage instance difference will not cancel out.)
This will also be marked in English as iff (if and only if) or ≡, ↔.
The stronger proof is if there is no difference in damage, in a window, there will be no difference in DPS, because different instances of damage difference can't cancel themselves out, so we don't need the caveat from above.
So, again, in simple terms, in general, lack of difference in damage always means lack of difference in damage over time. lack of difference in Damage over time, does not mean lack of difference in discrete damage instances.
Where the difference is monotonic:
lack of difference in DPS will mean lack of difference in damage instances.
Trivial, yet somehow I need to explain that lack of difference in one from cause X, means lack of difference in the other from cause X.
The point is that it depends how you apply it during the gameplay when the Effective DPS is represented. This includes variables and at this point the Paper DPS represents how strong a character is, not how good the player will perform in various situations where the Effective DPS takes place and where, depending upon the builds, Fey and Vorpal will give rather different results. You never, ever, have flat damage increase but a potential damage increase that's relative to the build. This is a very gray area which Paper DPS doesn't usually take into the account, especially not with the BiS build philosophy that's disregarding certain things. This is why budget build should be a valid metric or a point of reference prior to spending AD on things which won't show that big of a difference unless the player's not already having very strong build or output.
If you stand still and not attack an enemy when you have the chance, your Effective DPS will suffer greatly and it can lead to the rotation taking a toil.
For instance Fey will win in situations with Dungeon oriented content in pretty much every single scenario, whilst Vorpal will win in situations with less than ideal Recovery and Power output but a significant Critical chance.
So, in other words, on Paper (probability, potentiality) things will be shown properly for what they represent, but in fighting scenarios (actuality, reality) things go in favor of the people who use each variable to their advantage with what resources they have at their disposal.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
The point is that it depends how you apply it during the gameplay when the Effective DPS is represented. This includes variables and at this point the Paper DPS represents how strong a character is, not how good the player will perform in various situations where the Effective DPS takes place and where, depending upon the builds, Fey and Vorpal will give rather different results. You never, ever, have flat damage increase but a potential damage increase that's relative to the build. This is a very gray area which Paper DPS doesn't usually take into the account, especially not with the BiS build philosophy that's disregarding certain things. This is why budget build should be a valid metric or a point of reference prior to spending AD on things which won't show that big of a difference unless the player's not already having very strong build or output.
If you stand still and not attack an enemy when you have the chance, your Effective DPS will suffer greatly and it can lead to the rotation taking a toil.
For instance Fey will win in situations with Dungeon oriented content in pretty much every single scenario, whilst Vorpal will win in situations with less than ideal Recovery and Power output but a significant Critical chance.
So, in other words, on Paper (probability, potentiality) things will be shown properly for what they represent, but in fighting scenarios (actuality, reality) things go in favor of the people who use each variable to their advantage with what resources they have at their disposal.
if the same person stands still while attacking with vorpal he will stand still attacking with fey, hence there is no difference for the discussion, nothing more, nothing less. Your variables are the same for both enchants, hence they do not influence the comparison.
Position will not influence the difference between the enchants, neither mobs amount, neither mobs type, neither their orientation, their behaviour, nor their attacks.
The one single thing that can make difference is rotation, but if you are doing only at-wills CW, then the discussion what enchantment yields higher damage, or for you DPS, is moot, as the damage in any case will be a combination of wet noodles and other limp things.
It's very easy to show a fey at 100% uptime, it's trivial. It's also very easy to see that the actual uptime of fey is higher than the critical chance. (Obviously assuming that eventual crit chance is 100% otherwise it's all moot)
That leaves with comparing the added damage from both, and this only affected from the percent of damage contributors that can crit and can't crit, and the critical severity.
"Vorpal will win in situations with less than ideal Recovery and Power output but a significant Critical chance. "
Recovery and power influence the main components in the discussion equally, for fey, and for vorpal. With any recovery any class can maintain fey uptime as it's 20 seconds periods.
We measure the maximum, the best we can achieve, not at budget, not someone standing still and clicking the encounters with one hand.
if the same person stands still while attacking with vorpal he will stand still attacking with fey, hence there is no difference for the discussion, nothing more, nothing less. Your variables are the same for both enchants, hence they do not influence the comparison.
Position will not influence the difference between the enchants, neither mobs amount, neither mobs type, neither their orientation, their behaviour, nor their attacks.
It can on different abilities depending upon the variables. Especially when using Fey in combination to the Aura of Courage. That is all potentiality, though. At that point you want to maximize Aura of Courage instead since it's potentiality is greater to that of Storm Spell's potentiality and especially on Thaumaturge build. You have to adapt to the situation and you have to adapt the rotation to the situation so that you can take out the maximum. This maximumn damage on Paper DPS only works if you play correctly, and this might not be the case at all times since something can and will happen which will mess your rotation and thus you lose the Effective DPS. That's the main difference of Paper DPS and Effective DPS. What works on paper doesn't necessarily work in game to a letter (or a number in this case).
The one single thing that can make difference is rotation, but if you are doing only at-wills CW, then the discussion what enchantment yields higher damage, or for you DPS, is moot, as the damage in any case will be a combination of wet noodles and other limp things.
Actually, the point is that Vorpal's far cheaper than Fey and I can get more damage overall in contrast to the AD spending. I could buy several R12s or few R13s and get more benefit instead of Fey's benefit. This is a part of Effective DPS calculation. In other words - Bang for the buck.
It's very easy to show a fey at 100% uptime, it's trivial.
I disagree. Fey enchantment will stay 100% only AFTER the activation. It is not used 100% on all encounters/powers. It needs activation. It's nitpicking, but it's true.
That leaves with comparing the added damage from both, and this only affected from the percent of damage contributors that can crit and can't crit, and the critical severity.
We measure the maximum, the best we can achieve, not at budget, not someone standing still and clicking the encounters with one hand.
The maximum is the potentiality, not actuality. The Vorpal is at a slight disadvantage, but it stands to reason that it's more useful on lower end builds. And from the purse's perspective, Vorpal wins.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
I disagree. Fey enchantment will stay 100% only AFTER the activation. It is not used 100% on all encounters/powers. It needs activation. It's nitpicking, but it's true.
Iv'e pointed it out already, several times, after is only for the first entity based encounter ticks. Fey affects the trigger.
The maximum is the potentiality, not actuality. The Vorpal is at a slight disadvantage, but it stands to reason that it's more useful on lower end builds. And from the purse's perspective, Vorpal wins.
If a player makes weapon enchantment and not buying perfect fey will be cheaper than vorpal, and will net better results for players that don't have 100% crit chance, as most non high end players have. Also AoC depends on HP, and HP comes freely and abundantly from gear, so here too a low end player will see a significant boost to their damage without any other investment.
The one single thing that can make difference is rotation, but if you are doing only at-wills CW, then the discussion what enchantment yields higher damage, or for you DPS, is moot, as the damage in any case will be a combination of wet noodles and other limp things.
Actually, the point is that Vorpal's far cheaper than Fey and I can get more damage overall in contrast to the AD spending. I could buy several R12s or few R13s and get more benefit instead of Fey's benefit. This is a part of Effective DPS calculation. In other words - Bang for the buck.
Please... what else we want to add to 'effective dps'? Maybe fashion? Because the player will play more hours with a better looking char, and hence their dps per day will increase, or music, a good sound track will also increase DPS.
Yes, Vorpal has a great Value per AD now on the AH, no one argued differently, yet you can make fey cheaper than vorpal due the availability of normals, and for the limited budget player I've already described. We do not discuss the economy, this is up to anyone to recommend or consider based on the market. The discussion here was/is the maximal damage, a global maximum not a personal budget player.
If someone so inclined to actually calculate and show that in case X or Y it will be more beneficial to buy A or B, everyone is welcome to it, but then it actually has to show that there is benefit it, and not assume so.
Yes, as I state and as I repeat my statement, Fey wins in almost all scenarios.
If you possess a significant critical chance starting at around 60%, vorpal turns out to be a better choice given that you do not play with pally around.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
If they play with Pally. If you possess a significant critical chance starting at around 60%, vorpal turns out to be a better choice given that you do not play with pally around.
And how you got to this number?
Let me ask this, at 100% critical chance, at 125% Severity (CA included), how much Vorpal will add to my DPS? And how much Fey?
Assuming they cost the same and all the rest is the same. No Pally.
Same thing with lets say 70% critical chance (taking a significant margin over your stated 60%).
> @c1k4ml3kc3 said: > If they play with Pally. > > Yes, as I state and as I repeat my statement, Fey wins in almost all scenarios. > > If you possess a significant critical chance starting at around 60%, vorpal turns out to be a better choice given that you do not play with pally around.
I think the number is around 71,34% crit chance. You need to be carefull around that number. I've tested it myself so its not paper DPS but real world damage. With crit chance above that number mobs seemed to die bit faster with Vorpal.
If they play with Pally. If you possess a significant critical chance starting at around 60%, vorpal turns out to be a better choice given that you do not play with pally around.
And how you got to this number?
ACTing and experience with building budget CWs over the years. I took 60% as a starting point for the build that I'm utilizing. Since most powers I use aren't noncrit damage and since my power isn't astronomical, the 60% crit base I get seems to show progress in contrast to the Trans Fey I used prior to it. My overall damage increased thanks to the utilization of the StormSpell and critting abilities. This is only logcial to happen. As buffs come and go, the crit easily goes well over 100% crit chance. So if you take hours and hours of act logging in contrast to all the daily activities I do and have around 5 with trans fey in contrast to 5 of unparalleled Vorpal, the winner turns out to be Vorpal and by a big margin in my case. If I had more recovery to utilize the build, I would switch back to Fey.
Let me ask this, at 100% critical chance, at 125% Severity (CA included), how much Vorpal will add to my DPS? And how much Fey?
DPS is not something you may calculate solely on the premise of Weapon damage and encounter uses. DPS depends upon many variables. Both Paper DPS and Effective DPS. I fathom that you're asking about Effective DPS at which point I can't give you any answer since I do not know how you play. I can only go by the general rule of thumb and say if you're a TR who uses a lot of at-wills perhaps Vorpal isn't that big of a problem for you, and if you constantly go with a full buff/debuff party and actually wait for the activation i.e. "play properly", you're clearly better of with Fey, as is any other class for that matter. I'd still give benefit to Vorpal for TRs who're building their character and do not have the best equipment yet, solely due to a fact that TR can utilize critting ability by default and also has a good proc to effect ratio.
Assuming they cost the same and all the rest is the same. No Pally.
If they costed the same the clear winner would be Fey since it gives way more benefits overall. The question is whether this might change over the time or not.
Same thing with lets say 70% critical chance (taking a significant margin over your stated 60%).
If the price is the same, again, fey wins in all matters. As I already stated.
However, what you preach is potentiality and hypothesis which doesn't reflect on reality in any case, and the reality is that price differential is too big despite the fact that Effective DPS is similar on lower end builds. This is a factor.
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chance. You need to be carefull around that number. I've tested it myself so its not paper DPS but real world damage. With crit chance above that number mobs seemed to die bit faster with Vorpal.
I think you are correct. I'm sure that there's a way to find the perfect sweet-spot for the differential. I just do not have time for that, so I go starting from 60% as a general 2/3 rule of thumb. Given the mess that came out I'm sure I'll be more careful in the future. Thanks o/
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kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
And people can't play nice, we are tired of cleaning up this thread day after day. Leaving the last few insulting comments in the thread just to show the kind of stuff that we have had to keep removing. /end thread.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
Comments
As I wrote, DPS depends upon
- Bugs
- Types of enemies
- Effective DPS
- Managing distance
- Using actual weapons that you will use in a fight, instead of fixed damage numbers which are not part of it.
- Buffs
Thanks for trying.
Damage Per Second meaning DPS.
Not Damage.
Am I the only one who makes a solid distinction between the two around here?
"There are instances to which Fey and Vorpal behave differently in response to the Monster behavior and availability for the DPS."
It's not a hard phrase, either. Dee Pee Es. DPS. It's not just Fey or Vorpal. It's variables, monster behavior, player behavior etc.
I like how you're so keen on trying to prove me wrong that you completely disregard any context of what I'm stating. It's so simple it's actually funny how so many of you mistook it for Damage itself, even though I never spoke about that.
In the case where the difference between the enchantments is inside the RNG error, the test without fixed weapons damage is not a test but just a bunch of irrelevant numbers, off-course, if someone inclined so, they can prove a statistically valid test, null & alternate hypotheses and the number of test to get in the p-value. Doesn't activated by factor X doesn't negate that it can be 100% uptime. As I've said earlier, 100% uptime is trivial to show.
Please go and check how fey works. Entity encounters are not all encounters. Nothing of those has any effect. The discussed is the 20% buff vs the Crit severity, no buff debuf effects the outcome of the comparison. Wrong assumptions bring wrong conclusions. Again, this is based on the above assumptions, which are not correct. No.
ACT log is not math. It's only a log. a list. A grocery list is also a list. You can apply math on it and know by how much you spent on your shopping spree vs your last time, but a log by itself is not math, nor as was presented proves any relation between vorpal and fey.
A grocery list can prove that you bought milk, and that milk is more expansive than a steak, if it was the discussion but it wasn't.
A list of random number of milk bottles for a random price each, and a list of a random number of steaks for a random price each, is neither math, nor a proof, especially when the alleged difference is within the random scale. Feytouched doesn't trigger on at-will casting, it does affect at-wills, but that besides the point, as it is not what was required from you to prove, nor is math. I think you misapply the term modus ponens here. Dolls are irrelevant, the discussion is what yields more damage, fey or vorpal,
proving fey is not triggered by at-wills doesn't prove nor disprove directly neither claim. Both Fey and Vorpal are consistent. No difference between fey and vorpal in PvE. Whatever is that, there is no difference between fey and vorpal. Yes, because vorpal has a distance effect.....
Incorrect, there is no difference between fey and vorpal. The difference between weapons is if a person can draw a conclusion from the result. Hence, meaningless ACT log, and meaningful ACT log. There is no difference between fey and vorpal for the discussion here, any and all duffs or buffs benefit Fey secondary hit and debuff diminish Vorpal added debuff.
So while both of those factors were not discussed as they are relatively small, they are both in favor of Fey. Yes, I've even tried to explain how the damage formula works, stats interacts, and the debuff calculated, but I can only bring the horse to the fountain, can't force anyone to drink (an idiom).
We compare those two enchantments in the discussion, any affect on the player will affect equally both, hence it's irrelevant.
If you think that everyone wrong and you are right, it's perhaps a time to reconsider either what you write or how you write it.
In this case you need to equalize your variables, to compare two enchantments, which you didn't do, and this is why your ACT log / image doesn't bring any information for the comparison of fey and vorpal
The way you dissected my previous comment and then made wrongful assumptions upon what each of those mean tells me that you have way too much time at your disposal and at this point you're arguing pure semantics on topics which you're once again taking out of the context trying, at all cost, to appear as if you are correct.
No, flat damage is not the same as Damage Per Second and I'm sincerely sorry that you mistook it for one, but at this point you really should drop the act of prefaced superiority over the topic since it's really, really tiresome to talk about it for the third time.
I can already see a hasty generalization fallacy followed by ad populum fallacy coated in Dunning–Kruger effect solely to escape the plausibility of a personal (your) mistake, thus blaming the person who posted (me) of not being "clear enough" due to your own personal mistake of not realizing the difference between DPS and Flat damage boost. I can't be blamed for people assuming that DPS = DMG. That would be silly. I also can't be blamed for people's assumptions regarding the format of my posts content nor that it should meet a certain criteria for it to be valid or appealing. Those are pretty much preposterous accusations to which I'm not obliged to succumb simply because someone finds it more useful or expects things on a silver platter. Work your way with it or at least ask and I shall try to explain it to the best of my abilities if something's unclear.
I wish that there was a more purposeful argument which you, or others, may use against me in the given discussion(s?) so that you actually have a more valid purpose of a topic to discuss or whatever, but that really isn't the case due to a fact everyone who tried to explain something I'm very familiar with was making a grave error of not reading properly and I won't allow myself to be swayed by topics on nothing less but my errors(?) which I never started nor talked about in the first place to which you want to apply some form of negativism or tell me how I was wrong without actually proving it or, rather, proving it on the premise of something that wasn't even part of what I spoke about in the first place.
Appealing to the audience as a form of logical fallacy and a faulty tactic also won't work since regardless of what you state and regardless of whether it may hold any truth, it does not reflect on what I wrote to any extent. As such it is not relevant to what I spoke about. When I explain this on several occasions and ask people to reread what I wrote, pretty much nobody did.
This was fascinating to me, so of course I continued just for the sake of seeing who wants to be "most correct" in trying to prove to me that I'm wrong.
Assumptions are bad. I hope that people have learnt something from this tiresome writing exposition by all parties involved. I think that the lesson would be - read carefully and think carefully. And, of course, DPS = / = DMG. It's not the same, it can't be the same so don't even try to prove that it's the same thing. DPS uses many variables and enchantments behave differently in various variable situations to which the benefits of Fey and Vorpal will differ greatly.
1. You were talking about tact? I didn't mention your personality in any form or way in any post.
2. You may want to count the words you used an I used, you will find the disparity in time and useless prose is in my favor.
3. There is no issue of damage vs DPS, it looks like you are out of any actual valid argument so you are desperately looking for an excuse, feel free to use DPS whenever I've used damage in this specific case, to be exact, take the damage and divide it by 1 second or whatever time is appropriate, I trust you can do the conversion. More so the averaged overtime nullifies any issues of first hit and activation by entity encounter.
"DPS uses many variables and enchantments behave differently in various variable situations to which the benefits of Fey and Vorpal will differ greatly."
And all this as was tiresomely repeated, is simply not correct. All effects on one enchant will effect the second in the same way when discussed as critical severity vs 20% buff.
Take your DPS, separate it to the separate instances of damage, luckily for you it's a discrete function, and find any difference in damage between fey and vorpal. The issue is you still can't. The second issue is that if DPS has a difference between the enchants, then the discrete damage must have one too, as one is made from the other, but you yet to show any such difference.
Saying that one is familiar with a topic, and it being so when the proof is hand weaving and random pictures doesn't make it so.
What exactly a screenshot of critical hits in foundry proves?
Or several attacks with fey without activating fey first? Maybe we should test vorpal with 0 crit chance?
Now why does this sound familiar...?Flat Damage is not DPS. Can you prove that flat damage equals to DPS even though those are two absolutely different things?
Learn the difference between Effective DPS versus Paper DPS. This is important.
Also, addressing you on a personal note is perfectly valid even though I usually adhere a stamp of malicious intent in such behavior. In truth, this starts the moment there's no more discussion and any and all arguments are exhausted (at least those that matter regardless of how silly it may or may not appear). I do not attack your personality, however. I think that you have nothing on your disposal aside from trying to somehow prove that I'm wrong by stating that flat damage is, in fact, DPS. This is simply untrue no matter how you look at it and that argument you've lost.
However, at this point you're simply being bored and this is my firm belief. You'd prolong any form of a discussion just for the sake of arguing. Count me out on the further notice. I do not prefer vanity over arguments.
Unrelated : Also, can you actually test a critting power without any % of a crit chance? I don't think it's possible to do it since by default you're bound to have at least a few points of Crit chance due to the way game mechanics work, unless there's an option to turn off ability score points.
Related : Also, yes, the less Critical Chance there is, less useful Vorpal is. That's a perfectly valid argument since Fey will work better on all powers which aren't critting. In a Thaumaturge build Vorpal pales in comparison to the favor of Fey enchantment.
I sincerely hope that any form of a discussion is over.
offcourse there is no discussion, you can't answer any argument so you moved to personal attacks. Try to actually address the points, though you know you can't, so you keep trying any other way to derail the actual discussion, from personal attacks to passive-aggressive signatures.
Luckily most readers with more than 2 brain cells can see right through this sham and understand that you are just stuck with no valid argument, and trying to wiggle yourself out of the vorpal hole you made.
Now you found your DPS / Damage strawman and trying to murder it with extreme prejudice, which is lovely, but as I wrote before, it has no relevance what so ever, my argument stands with DPS, and with damage, convert by dividing or multiplying by time at your leisure. If you don't know how to covert one to the other, it's not a shame, ask and I'll explain.
You may use ACT as a helper tool, it has damage column, time column, and total encounter time. You may notice that the 3 have the simple relation of multiplication and division. Can't be simpler, but do please account for all the random variables when you compare two specifics, if you still didn't understand, comparing two enchantments while using random weapon damage, will not give valid conclusions. Not in DPS, not in Damage, not in flying pigs.
off course you like it be over, as you can't prove your argument, you can't address any of the counter argument provided and all you have is personal attacks and unrelated nonsense.
Perhaps you should post another meaningless image of foundry crits, or another ACT with random damage. Just you know to at least look like you are close the direction but only shows lack of understanding how the basic mechanics in the game works. BTW about that, if you need help on that front, ask away, I can link you some resources that may help and explain that part.
PS, I don't need to prove you anything, it is you who is trying to prove that vorpal is better at the given critical severity of over X as compared to fey. Which you are failing to do, trying repeatedly to assert that mob behavior is any form or way relevant to the difference between those enchants.
Because you are stuck at irrelevant things,
Mob behavior doesn't have any influence on the difference between vorpal and fey
In neverwinter terms, the important part is isolating variables. When you test crit, you don't test it in a combat field with 1000 buffs up and infinitely many variables, because if even 1 of those variables changes between the 1 test and the other, it contaminates the results. People don't find and report bugs in this game by doing, "dungeon run tests" they find them by isolating variables. What matters when you are testing a vorpal enchantment?
1) crit strike chance.
2) critical severity.
3) combat advantage.
Nothing else matters or influences the results. So, for accurate results, you get rid of everything except the important factors. Once you understand how everything behaves in a vacuum, you then expand your tests to see how they behave together, which is how we came to the "damage formula" in the first place. Quite frankly, that pretty picture with all the damage procs in the foundry or the act log with variable weapon damage is meaningless, it isn't how you test something scientifically and it doesn't yield any useful results, because you cannot, as that picture states you must be able to do, "replicate the results." If you want to test things properly in neverwinter, here is a guide.
You do not want to admit it, you take things out of the context and proceed to argue with me due to holding a grudge from another topic referring to 2xDC nerf. DPS does not equate flat Damage. This is a perfectly valid and logically astute argument which is evident in all of my posts previously written. It can't be a strawman. You're equating DPS with Damage. You've yet to prove this.
I do not stand wrong in anything I've written, lol. You may proceed to be angry or whatever. I am not the one who was comparing the Base damage ability of either Vorpal or Fey. I see no point doing that since I already know the outcome.
In fact, I stated that Fey wins in most situations and the real discussion ended when Sharpedge stated that there's a slight difference in modicum on the base level between the two. The discussion ended on a difference of opinion on the premise of gameplay, and it was a good way to end a discussion. We agree to disagree and that's absolutely fine and valid. That's all there is to it. But no, you had to come here and waste each of our time due to your own vanity. Way to go and actually derail a thread. You have no argument, whatsoever. Completely untrue. All you need is appropriate time span and the difference may become apparent over the prolonged sessions of playing. Perhaps you need a lesson in ACT use? The flat damage calculations are simply there for the sake of concise numbers. ACT use and general idea of flat damage is purely Paper DPS. Effective DPS takes in all the variables such as party composition, time of the encounter recovery, position of the mobs in response to the ability used, maximizing the potentiality of the build for the sake of effectiveness. This is not Paper DPS, but real event in-game which calculates and translates into Effective DPS.
Argument is that Fey's effective DPS isn't worth using on an AoE build whose primary role is to hunt in OMU both due to the AD needed for a proper Feytouched enchantment (starting from at least Pure, but Trans is more desired) in response to how effective it actually is when there's no Pally around to increase its potentiality.
So, in actuality, Vorpal fits my build way better than Fey ever would and I did have Fey enchantment which I found to be most effectively used (it's potential was the highest) at the moment of Boss fights of any kind.
If you have any questions, whatsoever, do ask on private message.
This is just your opinion which doesn't follow any logic given that I've already written more than my fair share. I needn't address any argument more than stating that it was nothing more than preaching to the choir by everyone involved who were disregarding my point of view, to which eventually Sharpedge did agree upon but found it irrelevant in his opinion since Omu hunts are not his primary orientation when playing this video-game.
This was fair and on-point. The difference between Fey and Vorpal was concluded to be fairly insignificant, unless there's a pally in equation followed by buffs and a build which revolves around using non-critting abilities. That's pretty much it. It is not meaningless, it shows the potency of Storm Spell in contrast to the Vorpal use proving that Vorpal isn't a HAMSTER enchantment to use and it's one of the ways to build decent damage for easy money atm. The damage wasn't random. It portrayed Vorpal's superiority when using At-will in contrast to the Storm Spell use and proved that Fey pales in comparison. It is actually a valid portrayal of how similar they are for any build which doesn't revolve around a lot of Recovery specifically for AoE CW rene build. It also shows that Fey isn't BiS for each and every CW build. I'm not the one claiming to be able to make tests with 0% crit chance on critting abilities. If you need any help with the mechanics, feel free to ask me instead. We'd start with explanation what is Paper DPS versus Effective DPS.
What I did state is that Enchantment use will differ in regards to how DPS will show so it's not the same if you attack the boss in a dungeon or enemies in Rothe valley. For instance, Fey will work better on Bosses and it's a clear choice when fighting bosses. In a boss fight the effective DPS of Fey use will drastically increase it's effectiveness, which can only rise furthermore with buffs and debuffs.
It's effectiveness will be far better on single-target uses such as Disintegrate and Icy Knife, although using Oppressive Force with Pally around and MoF build would be far more beneficial due to the attacking pattern of mechanics.
Vorpal pales in comparison to any single target oriented build since it's not utilizing Storm Spell potentiality which works the best due to the tick options.
Thanks for trying yet again.
Answer me this, please. Do I need to use flat damage on a weapon for the sake of proving that a mechanic (that's unrelated to the damage numbers at all points) is going to change the result on the use of at-will in comparison to Fey and Vorpal?
I find it astounding that people are trying to present that as an important factor when clearly it wasn't even the point to constitute the difference of a damage but, instead, the lack of mechanism activation.
Damage does not equal Activation and mechanics use. As such the damage is absolutely irrelevant whether I use 100 damage, 150 damage, 32492387645 damage or 1 damage. The result will always go in favor of the inability of the at-will to activate Feytouched weapon.
As such it's not absolutely mandatory to use flat damage. The only valid reason to use it is purely for the cosmetics and appeal to the audience, which I do not find mandatory whatsoever, lol. My point still stands sagacious in this regard and it also follows the scientific method at all times. Can you prove otherwise?
Lets try again, slowly, there is no difference if you attack one target, a boss, a minion, or a horde of bosses, or the entire foundry minion legion.
The difference between fey and vorpal will remain the same, given the rest is constant.
Here is where you state that mobs have influence on the enchantment behavior: Please do expand what mobs different damaging capabilities influence the difference between fey and vorpal.
Here is more: 1. Doesn't activated by at wills DOES NOT means it doesn't have 100% uptime!
As I've said, it's trivial to show fey at 100% uptime.
2. Marked in red. Nothing of the stated affect the difference in DPS between Vorpal and fey.
What exactly does it show without using constant damage base? Nothing in this context.
Statement : I agree that Feytouched wins in almost all situations for hi-end game builds, especially in dungeon-oriented content. This is not even a topic that should be discussed in the first place. I wrote this on several occasions. Please, note that.
Statement : I do not find Feytouched as useful in my build and the difference is drastically evident. Over the time that may or may not change, but for the time being Vorpal is the clear winner. Different damaging capabilities referring to the uses of single target or AoE abilities of the player. Not "different abilities of mobs" which will somehow influence weapon enchantments themselves.
Related : Although, the latter wouldn't surprise me. I have experienced a bug with Transcendent Elven Battle Armor enchantment and the use of the Steal Time on spell mastery. The Enchantment messes with the speed buff to my knowledge, although it could mess with entire Spell Mastery slot. I already reported this. To my knowledge I do not know of any bug which happens with either Fey or Vorpal in regards to the powers by Monsters, i.e. their interchangeable powers themselves. The damage will increase FOR THE PLAYER on bosses with the use of Fey enchantment and single-target output build. Already stated this at least 5 times in the topic in the past 2-3 days. I find that it's evident I speak from the Player's perspective, unless I really need to express that? lol I wasn't referring to that at all when speaking about math.
Now that you mention it, actually, it does show the Effective DPS from my prolonged situations with using Fey and Vorpal and shows just how much more effective Vorpal is for my build and the purpose I'm giving it. Makes Vorpal BiS in my situation for the intent that I want to use it. Nothing more, nothing less.
This time around I actually want to thank you for asking instead of assuming what I'm speaking about. I found the last comment of yours far more enjoyable both to read and to answer to.
Lets go simple in this too, you take a lot of discrete damage instances add them up, divide by the time window you summed over, and viola DPS.
Now here is the modus ponenes if there is difference in damage in the same window between two tests there will be difference in DPS. And vice versa if there is a difference in DPS in two windows of measurement, there must be difference in at least one instance of damage.
(caveat is that the difference is monotonic and damage instance difference will not cancel out.)
This will also be marked in English as iff (if and only if) or ≡, ↔.
The stronger proof is if there is no difference in damage, in a window, there will be no difference in DPS, because different instances of damage difference can't cancel themselves out, so we don't need the caveat from above.
So, again, in simple terms, in general,
lack of difference in damage always means lack of difference in damage over time.
lack of difference in Damage over time, does not mean lack of difference in discrete damage instances.
Where the difference is monotonic:
lack of difference in DPS will mean lack of difference in damage instances.
Trivial, yet somehow I need to explain that lack of difference in one from cause X, means lack of difference in the other from cause X.
If you stand still and not attack an enemy when you have the chance, your Effective DPS will suffer greatly and it can lead to the rotation taking a toil.
For instance Fey will win in situations with Dungeon oriented content in pretty much every single scenario, whilst Vorpal will win in situations with less than ideal Recovery and Power output but a significant Critical chance.
So, in other words, on Paper (probability, potentiality) things will be shown properly for what they represent, but in fighting scenarios (actuality, reality) things go in favor of the people who use each variable to their advantage with what resources they have at their disposal.
if the same person stands still while attacking with vorpal he will stand still attacking with fey, hence there is no difference for the discussion, nothing more, nothing less. Your variables are the same for both enchants, hence they do not influence the comparison.
Position will not influence the difference between the enchants, neither mobs amount, neither mobs type, neither their orientation, their behaviour, nor their attacks.
The one single thing that can make difference is rotation, but if you are doing only at-wills CW, then the discussion what enchantment yields higher damage, or for you DPS, is moot, as the damage in any case will be a combination of wet noodles and other limp things.
It's very easy to show a fey at 100% uptime, it's trivial.
It's also very easy to see that the actual uptime of fey is higher than the critical chance.
(Obviously assuming that eventual crit chance is 100% otherwise it's all moot)
That leaves with comparing the added damage from both, and this only affected from the percent of damage contributors that can crit and can't crit, and the critical severity.
"Vorpal will win in situations with less than ideal Recovery and Power output but a significant Critical chance. "
Recovery and power influence the main components in the discussion equally, for fey, and for vorpal. With any recovery any class can maintain fey uptime as it's 20 seconds periods.
We measure the maximum, the best we can achieve, not at budget, not someone standing still and clicking the encounters with one hand.
Also AoC depends on HP, and HP comes freely and abundantly from gear, so here too a low end player will see a significant boost to their damage without any other investment.
Please... what else we want to add to 'effective dps'? Maybe fashion? Because the player will play more hours with a better looking char, and hence their dps per day will increase, or music, a good sound track will also increase DPS.
Yes, Vorpal has a great Value per AD now on the AH, no one argued differently, yet you can make fey cheaper than vorpal due the availability of normals, and for the limited budget player I've already described.
We do not discuss the economy, this is up to anyone to recommend or consider based on the market. The discussion here was/is the maximal damage, a global maximum not a personal budget player.
If someone so inclined to actually calculate and show that in case X or Y it will be more beneficial to buy A or B, everyone is welcome to it, but then it actually has to show that there is benefit it, and not assume so.
Yes, as I state and as I repeat my statement, Fey wins in almost all scenarios.
If you possess a significant critical chance starting at around 60%, vorpal turns out to be a better choice given that you do not play with pally around.
Let me ask this, at 100% critical chance, at 125% Severity (CA included), how much Vorpal will add to my DPS?
And how much Fey?
Assuming they cost the same and all the rest is the same. No Pally.
Same thing with lets say 70% critical chance (taking a significant margin over your stated 60%).
> If they play with Pally.
>
> Yes, as I state and as I repeat my statement, Fey wins in almost all scenarios.
>
> If you possess a significant critical chance starting at around 60%, vorpal turns out to be a better choice given that you do not play with pally around.
I think the number is around 71,34% crit chance. You need to be carefull around that number. I've tested it myself so its not paper DPS but real world damage. With crit chance above that number mobs seemed to die bit faster with Vorpal.
So if you take hours and hours of act logging in contrast to all the daily activities I do and have around 5 with trans fey in contrast to 5 of unparalleled Vorpal, the winner turns out to be Vorpal and by a big margin in my case. If I had more recovery to utilize the build, I would switch back to Fey. DPS is not something you may calculate solely on the premise of Weapon damage and encounter uses. DPS depends upon many variables. Both Paper DPS and Effective DPS. I fathom that you're asking about Effective DPS at which point I can't give you any answer since I do not know how you play. I can only go by the general rule of thumb and say if you're a TR who uses a lot of at-wills perhaps Vorpal isn't that big of a problem for you, and if you constantly go with a full buff/debuff party and actually wait for the activation i.e. "play properly", you're clearly better of with Fey, as is any other class for that matter.
I'd still give benefit to Vorpal for TRs who're building their character and do not have the best equipment yet, solely due to a fact that TR can utilize critting ability by default and also has a good proc to effect ratio. If they costed the same the clear winner would be Fey since it gives way more benefits overall. The question is whether this might change over the time or not. If the price is the same, again, fey wins in all matters. As I already stated.
However, what you preach is potentiality and hypothesis which doesn't reflect on reality in any case, and the reality is that price differential is too big despite the fact that Effective DPS is similar on lower end builds. This is a factor.
Given the mess that came out I'm sure I'll be more careful in the future. Thanks o/
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