self buff can be excluded. i am talking about ally-party buffs.
It's an interesting idea, it would certainly reshape the support class landscape quite a bit.
If they did make that kind of change, then it would be important to balance buffs / debuffs in a party which would increase variety of builds in demand. I'm always for stuff that encourages rainbow parties.
It's also not clear if the current system can distinguish self-buffs from ally-buffs. It might be quite a bit of development to get it into place.
To cut to the chase, I'm sensing that you have a concern that these planned debuff changes will bias the meta towards buffs by too much. And certain classes are better buffers than others (DC comes to mind). So is the concern that the debuff rework would case the meta to favor classes with party buffs and not classes with debuffs?
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
self buff can be excluded. i am talking about ally-party buffs.
It's an interesting idea, it would certainly reshape the support class landscape quite a bit.
If they did make that kind of change, then it would be important to balance buffs / debuffs in a party which would increase variety of builds in demand. I'm always for stuff that encourages rainbow parties.
It's also not clear if the current system can distinguish self-buffs from ally-buffs. It might be quite a bit of development to get it into place.
To cut to the chase, I'm sensing that you have a concern that these planned debuff changes will bias the meta towards buffs by too much. And certain classes are better buffers than others (DC comes to mind). So is the concern that the debuff rework would case the meta to favor classes with party buffs and not classes with debuffs?
self buff can be excluded. i am talking about ally-party buffs.
It's an interesting idea, it would certainly reshape the support class landscape quite a bit.
If they did make that kind of change, then it would be important to balance buffs / debuffs in a party which would increase variety of builds in demand. I'm always for stuff that encourages rainbow parties.
It's also not clear if the current system can distinguish self-buffs from ally-buffs. It might be quite a bit of development to get it into place.
To cut to the chase, I'm sensing that you have a concern that these planned debuff changes will bias the meta towards buffs by too much. And certain classes are better buffers than others (DC comes to mind). So is the concern that the debuff rework would case the meta to favor classes with party buffs and not classes with debuffs?
PERsonal i do not find logic to touch only debuff and not the buff also.
PERsonal i do not find logic to touch only debuff and not the buff also.
Hehe, I guess I'd say that there isn't necessarily logic to it, but I'd prefer that the game was well-balanced than perfectly logically consistent. If that means some mechanics work differently than others, I'm not automatically opposed.
I do think that that there are 2 important things:
Players should be able to understand how things work in-game. That could mean a universal system. But it definitely means better tooltips, more lore entries, or additional published resources etc.
Support mechanics should aim for party contribution balance i.e. one type of build / class shouldn't be strictly superior to others that can fill a similar support role.
I don't think that all of the games systems need to work the same way in order to accomplish the above goals. In fact, having debuffs diminish but buffs not diminish could allow for interesting tradeoffs between support classes, provided again that choices are balanced enough such that one class is not strictly superior to the other in most cases.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
PERsonal i do not find logic to touch only debuff and not the buff also.
Hehe, I guess I'd say that there isn't necessarily logic to it, but I'd prefer that the game was well-balanced than perfectly logically consistent. If that means some mechanics work differently than others, I'm not automatically opposed.
I do think that that there are 2 important things:
Players should be able to understand how things work in-game. That could mean a universal system. But it definitely means better tooltips, more lore entries, or additional published resources etc.
Support mechanics should aim for party contribution balance i.e. one type of build / class shouldn't be strictly superior to others that can fill a similar support role.
I don't think that all of the games systems need to work the same way in order to accomplish the above goals. In fact, having debuffs diminish but buffs not diminish could allow for interesting tradeoffs between support classes, provided again that choices are balanced enough such that one class is not strictly superior to the other in most cases.
I agree shouldnt be strictly superior to others that can fill a similar support role. THAT could stop if the same class cannot stack their buffs, or if they stack they should have diminishing returns. THis way the similar class will have always a spot and will be viable.
gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
The proposed cap for debuffs seems definitely too high for me, still favouring too much certain party combinations. I would prefer a solution where all debuffs stack and the cap is +200% (hard cap), how you get there is up to you. Same for buffs, all stack with a hard cap applied across the board.
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
The proposed cap for debuffs seems definitely too high for me, still favouring too much certain party combinations. I would prefer a solution where all debuffs stack and the cap is +200% (hard cap), how you get there is up to you. Same for buffs, all stack with a hard cap applied across the board.
That introduces the same problem as when they were redoing weapon enchants and proposed to change PF and Frost from uncapped to capped debuffs. It wasn't difficult for certain class combinations to hit the cap innately, so anything that can't go over that cap loses value.
I don't think this suggestion would accomplish what you're hoping for.
@rgutscheradev curious if you've been giving any of this any thought. I know this thread hasn't attracted the sexy attention like the PVP threads (much to my dismay... I was hoping for a more active discussion about debuffs too haha).
Yes, revamping buffs and making them more transparent to players is something I'd like to do. Cleaning up the damage vulnerability debuffs was a step in that direction, but there's lots to do here (potion/food/scroll/etc. buffs are another item on my ever-growing hitlist). For the immediate future, the big systemic changes are going to be focused on PvP, but I agree there is some work that should be done at some point on buff stacking in general (both for balance and for readability).
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
The proposed cap for debuffs seems definitely too high for me, still favouring too much certain party combinations. I would prefer a solution where all debuffs stack and the cap is +200% (hard cap), how you get there is up to you. Same for buffs, all stack with a hard cap applied across the board.
People that make speed runs of high end content will keep doing it and i don't think this will change, for this to change not just the enemy part would need to change but also the player buffs would need to suffer some kind of diminishing return.
About these changes, what worries me a bit is the passage of player only debuff to new "global" debuff. Hadar's grasp sufered a nerf and seriously did not need it, hunter ranger prey can still become nearly useless, both of these paths are already not very favorable to bring along in a dungeon and these powers are expected to work and make part of the math when comparing to other dps classes. So....in order to value these powers and their purpose i think they should add regardless of the current debuff but lower the max debuff, some examples:
Instead tending to 300%, tending to 270%: Example 1: Current team Debuff: 270% HR applies prey: Debuff to HR: 320%
Example 2: Current team effectiveness: 268% GWF applies mark. Team effectiveness raises 8% supposing there were no debuffs applied, since there are the debuff would actually be something like 270% GWF : 270% + 12%
OR more simply:
Change some powers to really increase damage over target, like GWF marks a target and gets 15% more damage attacking that target having powerfull chalenge feat, HR would put a pseudo green mark and Hadar grasp a pseudo black mark.
@rgutscheradev curious if you've been giving any of this any thought. I know this thread hasn't attracted the sexy attention like the PVP threads (much to my dismay... I was hoping for a more active discussion about debuffs too haha).
Yes, revamping buffs and making them more transparent to players is something I'd like to do. Cleaning up the damage vulnerability debuffs was a step in that direction, but there's lots to do here (potion/food/scroll/etc. buffs are another item on my ever-growing hitlist). For the immediate future, the big systemic changes are going to be focused on PvP, but I agree there is some work that should be done at some point on buff stacking in general (both for balance and for readability).
Thanks for the udpate. Have you had a chance to take a look at any of the inconsistent behaviors in my earlier reply (the big wall of text, but with bullet points)? Or is that being relegated to a back burner for now...
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
@rgutscheradev curious if you've been giving any of this any thought. I know this thread hasn't attracted the sexy attention like the PVP threads (much to my dismay... I was hoping for a more active discussion about debuffs too haha).
Yes, revamping buffs and making them more transparent to players is something I'd like to do. Cleaning up the damage vulnerability debuffs was a step in that direction, but there's lots to do here (potion/food/scroll/etc. buffs are another item on my ever-growing hitlist). For the immediate future, the big systemic changes are going to be focused on PvP, but I agree there is some work that should be done at some point on buff stacking in general (both for balance and for readability).
At the moment we have 2 clerics they can stack weapon of light which is the same exactly feat on both paths and leads to excessive power specially if we consider that it buffs the companions too and most of the mount bonuses. WoL doesn't have any other requirements or cooldowns unlike the paladins 6 sec delay or SW 3 sec and the need to lifesteal.
And on top when clerics using daily power with the class feature hastening light they do 4 sec cooldown reduction for ally and party. the issue here is 2 clerics give to the party 8 seconds reduction on encounter and for the dc 8 sec reduction also on the hallowed ground daily. Combine that with a paladin using aura of wisdom and you can make the dps classes do way more than I think it was intended. (Back to back IBS for example)
When we look at other classes we will find that almost no buff is stacking from 2 people playing the same class.
Scourge Warlock can’t stack dark revelry or pillar, Paladins can't stack auras or powershare.
As far as solutions to make all the classes wanted in new module? 1. Treat all classes the same and let them stack their buff powers and we all know where that will lead
2 2 dc no longer stack their buffs.I am not against players doing this, I’m against the way the system works. It doesn’t give room to other classes to show their potential. I’m up for more synergy between different classes and not 2 dc synergy with other classes.
3. As a friend suggested, do the same things you did with the debuffs. Cap the power share and buff potential to a certain percentage (lets say 200% for buff and 60-80k powershare) and let people stack whatever classes they like. That way good players will be needed regardless of the class they play.
Have you had a chance to take a look at any of the inconsistent behaviors in my earlier reply (the big wall of text, but with bullet points)? Or is that being relegated to a back burner for now...
Yes, I took a look, but I'm afraid that's going to have to wait for now. (It's super-helpful having the list to refer to, though, so thank you for that!)
Keep in mind that revamping all buffs is a much bigger project than the damage vulnerability debuffs revamp.
It involves a *lot* more powers first of all. I just checked, and the damage vulnerability changes involved changing about 100 files (about half of that is powers, and about half is class files, where these particular diminishing return formulas live). An overall buff stacking revamp would be at least 10x that.
The other thing to keep in mind is that damage vulnerability already had a cap. So the change was "just" changing one kind of cap for another, and bringing in a few miscellaneous uncapped powers into the fold. Adding a cap or diminishing returns where there was none before would change things a lot. So there isn't an obvious "this will just make things better and cleaner, but keep everyone's power levels roughly the same" solution. There will, of necessity, be massive buffing and nerfing all over the place with a change like that. So we shouldn't push it out in a rush.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. But it's definitely a project that's big enough that it will need some serious time scheduled to get it done, and right now there are other things ahead of it in the queue. I do still want to do it, though!
Have you had a chance to take a look at any of the inconsistent behaviors in my earlier reply (the big wall of text, but with bullet points)? Or is that being relegated to a back burner for now...
Yes, I took a look, but I'm afraid that's going to have to wait for now. (It's super-helpful having the list to refer to, though, so thank you for that!)
Keep in mind that revamping all buffs is a much bigger project than the damage vulnerability debuffs revamp.
It involves a *lot* more powers first of all. I just checked, and the damage vulnerability changes involved changing about 100 files (about half of that is powers, and about half is class files, where these particular diminishing return formulas live). An overall buff stacking revamp would be at least 10x that.
The other thing to keep in mind is that damage vulnerability already had a cap. So the change was "just" changing one kind of cap for another, and bringing in a few miscellaneous uncapped powers into the fold. Adding a cap or diminishing returns where there was none before would change things a lot. So there isn't an obvious "this will just make things better and cleaner, but keep everyone's power levels roughly the same" solution. There will, of necessity, be massive buffing and nerfing all over the place with a change like that. So we shouldn't push it out in a rush.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. But it's definitely a project that's big enough that it will need some serious time scheduled to get it done, and right now there are other things ahead of it in the queue. I do still want to do it, though!
Thanks for the further context!
Yep, and to clarify I'm not actually advocating for applying diminishing returns to buffs necessarily, but I'm interested in hearing about where you think you'll be taking these mechanics next. I made similar points to what you said replying to mamalion above.
I fully understand that a larger rework will be... larger. Far larger, it sounds like!
And thanks for the heads up about the inconsistent behaviors list. I think that inconsistent stacking behavior is kind of going to evolve into the next capped vs. uncapped meta so it would be good to address in the not-so-distant future.
Cheers,
Pickles
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
@rgutscheradev curious if you've been giving any of this any thought. I know this thread hasn't attracted the sexy attention like the PVP threads (much to my dismay... I was hoping for a more active discussion about debuffs too haha).
Yes, revamping buffs and making them more transparent to players is something I'd like to do. Cleaning up the damage vulnerability debuffs was a step in that direction, but there's lots to do here (potion/food/scroll/etc. buffs are another item on my ever-growing hitlist). For the immediate future, the big systemic changes are going to be focused on PvP, but I agree there is some work that should be done at some point on buff stacking in general (both for balance and for readability).
thanks for looking at this "potion/food/scroll" I have made many posts about it on your radar not counting towards item level and how it gets over stacked in pvp and pve and effects balance
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
Have you had a chance to take a look at any of the inconsistent behaviors in my earlier reply (the big wall of text, but with bullet points)? Or is that being relegated to a back burner for now...
Yes, I took a look, but I'm afraid that's going to have to wait for now. (It's super-helpful having the list to refer to, though, so thank you for that!)
Keep in mind that revamping all buffs is a much bigger project than the damage vulnerability debuffs revamp.
It involves a *lot* more powers first of all. I just checked, and the damage vulnerability changes involved changing about 100 files (about half of that is powers, and about half is class files, where these particular diminishing return formulas live). An overall buff stacking revamp would be at least 10x that.
The other thing to keep in mind is that damage vulnerability already had a cap. So the change was "just" changing one kind of cap for another, and bringing in a few miscellaneous uncapped powers into the fold. Adding a cap or diminishing returns where there was none before would change things a lot. So there isn't an obvious "this will just make things better and cleaner, but keep everyone's power levels roughly the same" solution. There will, of necessity, be massive buffing and nerfing all over the place with a change like that. So we shouldn't push it out in a rush.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. But it's definitely a project that's big enough that it will need some serious time scheduled to get it done, and right now there are other things ahead of it in the queue. I do still want to do it, though!
Thanks for the further context!
Yep, and to clarify I'm not actually advocating for applying diminishing returns to buffs necessarily, but I'm interested in hearing about where you think you'll be taking these mechanics next. I made similar points to what you said replying to mamalion above.
I fully understand that a larger rework will be... larger. Far larger, it sounds like!
And thanks for the heads up about the inconsistent behaviors list. I think that inconsistent stacking behavior is kind of going to evolve into the next capped vs. uncapped meta so it would be good to address in the not-so-distant future.
Cheers,
Pickles
DUpeks how will affect the clerics if they cant longer stack their feats like hastening light and weapons of light? like the other classes they cant stack the same feats. OR To make my question more clear that will make clerics obsolete?
DUpeks how will affect the clerics if they cant longer stack their feats like hastening light and weapons of light? like the other classes they cant stack the same feats. OR To make my question more clear that will make clerics obsolete?
Will they be obsolete? I doubt it, but it's hard to know without looking at specific proposals.
OP's power sharing and auras currently doesn't stack, and they are very much desired for end-game runs (but not 2 OPs, by contrast 2 DCs is pretty common).
Currently the major stacking ability for DCs is WoL. Beyond that, the other debuffs don't stack. And buff powers don't overlap. There just happen to be enough DC powers for 2 DCs to not overlap very much with different party utility.
If you take away WoL stacking, I think it would nerf end-game groups by a little bit. Maybe we wouldn't break speedrun records for a while. But would it make DCs obsolete? I doubt it.
If you completely reworked how buffs work, applying diminishing returns to them then I think it would be really hard to tell. It could completely change the landscape, and I'm not sure what the point would be. Again, I'm not against it but I'm not certain I understand the objective of that kind of rework.
Finally, I'm pretty sure that DCs aren't the only class with abilities that stack. Off the top of my head, GF, OP, and CW all have some ability that can stack in some way. So we would likely want to address that stacking behavior more broadly.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
DUpeks how will affect the clerics if they cant longer stack their feats like hastening light and weapons of light? like the other classes they cant stack the same feats. OR To make my question more clear that will make clerics obsolete?
Will they be obsolete? I doubt it, but it's hard to know without looking at specific proposals.
OP's power sharing and auras currently doesn't stack, and they are very much desired for end-game runs (but not 2 OPs, by contrast 2 DCs is pretty common).
Currently the major stacking ability for DCs is WoL. Beyond that, the other debuffs don't stack. And buff powers don't overlap. There just happen to be enough DC powers for 2 DCs to not overlap very much with different party utility.
If you take away WoL stacking, I think it would nerf end-game groups by a little bit. Maybe we wouldn't break speedrun records for a while. But would it make DCs obsolete? I doubt it.
If you completely reworked how buffs work, applying diminishing returns to them then I think it would be really hard to tell. It could completely change the landscape, and I'm not sure what the point would be. Again, I'm not against it but I'm not certain I understand the objective of that kind of rework.
Finally, I'm pretty sure that DCs aren't the only class with abilities that stack. Off the top of my head, GF, OP, and CW all have some ability that can stack in some way. So we would likely want to address that stacking behavior more broadly.
FOR cw i know it can stack the prestidigation for 15% stats in party if all 5 wizards get the feat 3/3 but see here : if 5 wizards in party with the feat 3/3. ALso they can stack the uncertain allegiance 5% critical on a critical hit. IF those are can marked as gamebreaking i dont have problem the change hit them too. Now about paladin and gf what of their same abilities stacks?
FOR cw i know it can stack the prestidigation for 15% stats in party if all 5 wizards get the feat 3/3 but see here : if 5 wizards in party with the feat 3/3. ALso they can stack the uncertain allegiance 5% critical on a critical hit. IF those are can marked as gamebreaking i dont have problem the change hit them too. Now about paladin and gf what of their same abilities stacks?
I'm not sure I see where you're going with this. You pointed out yourself that CW has abilities that stack (smolder and rimfire can too). I can go dig up single examples for other classes, but what's the point?
GF Capstones stack. OP has some less-used powers that stack, especially when applied by Dev and Prot both.
Are those game breaking? No. Is WoL game breaking? I don't think so either. Power sharing might be in general, but WoL isn't even where most of DC power sharing comes from either...
I feel like you're trying to focus this conversation on whether or not a particular class (DC) is overpowered. I kind of think that this isn't the right place for that discussion, except for the potential impact to debuff change decisions. So, if you think it will be SO MUCH WORSE with the new system that they should intervene and make changes before it goes live. I just don't think it's that dire.
There's a long way to go from where we are to perfect. But I also don't think it's sensible to ignore that all of that work can't be done all at once. You have to take baby steps. This debuff rework is baby step #1.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Making a couple of DC feats stop stacking isn't going to nuke the synergy between a group with one AC/DC and one DO/DC anyway, and you can still do things with two DCs like one empowered BtS and one empowered FF.
FOR cw i know it can stack the prestidigation for 15% stats in party if all 5 wizards get the feat 3/3 but see here : if 5 wizards in party with the feat 3/3. ALso they can stack the uncertain allegiance 5% critical on a critical hit. IF those are can marked as gamebreaking i dont have problem the change hit them too. Now about paladin and gf what of their same abilities stacks?
I'm not sure I see where you're going with this. You pointed out yourself that CW has abilities that stack (smolder and rimfire can too). I can go dig up single examples for other classes, but what's the point?
GF Capstones stack. OP has some less-used powers that stack, especially when applied by Dev and Prot both.
Are those game breaking? No. Is WoL game breaking? I don't think so either. Power sharing might be in general, but WoL isn't even where most of DC power sharing comes from either...
I feel like you're trying to focus this conversation on whether or not a particular class (DC) is overpowered. I kind of think that this isn't the right place for that discussion, except for the potential impact to debuff change decisions. So, if you think it will be SO MUCH WORSE with the new system that they should intervene and make changes before it goes live. I just don't think it's that dire.
There's a long way to go from where we are to perfect. But I also don't think it's sensible to ignore that all of that work can't be done all at once. You have to take baby steps. This debuff rework is baby step #1.
You are right when you say that i am talking about clerics and maybe i should have made new thread about it , but this is the case i am trying to say that the buffs should not able to stack(regardless of class) that they affect the party or they should stack from every class. FOR example two hastening lights stack, two aura of wisdom do not stack. 2 weapons of light stack but 2 dark revelry they dont stack. I Dont think 2 prestidigation will make the parties to fill the spots for that reason are not the same league as the hastening light- weapons of light but if it is a problem it can get that fix too.
Making a couple of DC feats stop stacking isn't going to nuke the synergy between a group with one AC/DC and one DO/DC anyway, and you can still do things with two DCs like one empowered BtS and one empowered FF.
Seems like off-topic rabble-rousing.
IF you put 2 clerics make the intomitable strike to have almost no cooldown you have right is not so important.
Have you had a chance to take a look at any of the inconsistent behaviors in my earlier reply (the big wall of text, but with bullet points)? Or is that being relegated to a back burner for now...
Yes, I took a look, but I'm afraid that's going to have to wait for now. (It's super-helpful having the list to refer to, though, so thank you for that!)
Keep in mind that revamping all buffs is a much bigger project than the damage vulnerability debuffs revamp.
It involves a *lot* more powers first of all. I just checked, and the damage vulnerability changes involved changing about 100 files (about half of that is powers, and about half is class files, where these particular diminishing return formulas live). An overall buff stacking revamp would be at least 10x that.
The other thing to keep in mind is that damage vulnerability already had a cap. So the change was "just" changing one kind of cap for another, and bringing in a few miscellaneous uncapped powers into the fold. Adding a cap or diminishing returns where there was none before would change things a lot. So there isn't an obvious "this will just make things better and cleaner, but keep everyone's power levels roughly the same" solution. There will, of necessity, be massive buffing and nerfing all over the place with a change like that. So we shouldn't push it out in a rush.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. But it's definitely a project that's big enough that it will need some serious time scheduled to get it done, and right now there are other things ahead of it in the queue. I do still want to do it, though!
Where Personal buffs are things like feats and class features, maybe, for the sake of balance all of these could also be left multiplicative (since it could drastically change class balance making a change like this) but in the long term it would be the route I would take.
Party buffs would be things like Break the Spirit and Hallowed ground. The values on these buffs would then have to be tweaked in some ways.
Party Item buffs are things like the stronghold weapon set and the sigil of the nine, not many things fall into this category, but it can exist in case more are added.
Personal Item Buffs would be things like the Wheel of Elements and the Tome of Ascendance. I would then rework the wheel to actually be a buff, rather than an additional hit.
This would help balance in some ways, but if a change like this is made it should be dome carefully with careful consideration for new values for powers etc.
Making a couple of DC feats stop stacking isn't going to nuke the synergy between a group with one AC/DC and one DO/DC anyway, and you can still do things with two DCs like one empowered BtS and one empowered FF.
Seems like off-topic rabble-rousing.
IF you put 2 clerics make the intomitable strike to have almost no cooldown you have right is not so important.
@mamalion1234 I don't even see how this whole thing about hastening light matters anyhow, as a DO DC, I don't even use it in a 2 dc party...
Have you had a chance to take a look at any of the inconsistent behaviors in my earlier reply (the big wall of text, but with bullet points)? Or is that being relegated to a back burner for now...
Yes, I took a look, but I'm afraid that's going to have to wait for now. (It's super-helpful having the list to refer to, though, so thank you for that!)
Keep in mind that revamping all buffs is a much bigger project than the damage vulnerability debuffs revamp.
It involves a *lot* more powers first of all. I just checked, and the damage vulnerability changes involved changing about 100 files (about half of that is powers, and about half is class files, where these particular diminishing return formulas live). An overall buff stacking revamp would be at least 10x that.
The other thing to keep in mind is that damage vulnerability already had a cap. So the change was "just" changing one kind of cap for another, and bringing in a few miscellaneous uncapped powers into the fold. Adding a cap or diminishing returns where there was none before would change things a lot. So there isn't an obvious "this will just make things better and cleaner, but keep everyone's power levels roughly the same" solution. There will, of necessity, be massive buffing and nerfing all over the place with a change like that. So we shouldn't push it out in a rush.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. But it's definitely a project that's big enough that it will need some serious time scheduled to get it done, and right now there are other things ahead of it in the queue. I do still want to do it, though!
Where Personal buffs are things like feats and class features, maybe, for the sake of balance all of these could also be left multiplicative (since it could drastically change class balance making a change like this) but in the long term it would be the route I would take.
Party buffs would be things like Break the Spirit and Hallowed ground. The values on these buffs would then have to be tweaked in some ways.
Party Item buffs are things like the stronghold weapon set and the sigil of the nine, not many things fall into this category, but it can exist in case more are added.
Personal Item Buffs would be things like the Wheel of Elements and the Tome of Ascendance. I would then rework the wheel to actually be a buff, rather than an additional hit.
This would help balance in some ways, but if a change like this is made it should be dome carefully with careful consideration for new values for powers etc.
Making a couple of DC feats stop stacking isn't going to nuke the synergy between a group with one AC/DC and one DO/DC anyway, and you can still do things with two DCs like one empowered BtS and one empowered FF.
Seems like off-topic rabble-rousing.
IF you put 2 clerics make the intomitable strike to have almost no cooldown you have right is not so important.
@mamalion1234 I don't even see how this whole thing about hastening light matters anyhow, as a DO DC, I don't even use it in a 2 dc party...
flat cooldown reductions affects the party overall perfomance. IF you have and 2nd cleric becomes a spamming fest of encounters . Astral shields intomitables spam ( encounters high cooldown) guardians focused on power critical and not recovery they spam into the fray killing the purpose of timing the powers. As do i use insight and hastening light for me and the team you have a better class feat that u use and why?
treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
edited June 2017
Honestly additive buffs seems to be the way to go in pve, right now, in almost all cases, faster clean = safer clean, the situations that go against this rule and require full protective powers will hurt the team bad in progression, a lot of things would have to change? Yep, but it's for the best.
You are right when you say that i am talking about clerics and maybe i should have made new thread about it , but this is the case i am trying to say that the buffs should not able to stack(regardless of class) that they affect the party or they should stack from every class. FOR example two hastening lights stack, two aura of wisdom do not stack. 2 weapons of light stack but 2 dark revelry they dont stack. I Dont think 2 prestidigation will make the parties to fill the spots for that reason are not the same league as the hastening light- weapons of light but if it is a problem it can get that fix too.
I encourage you to make a new thread, I think that this discussion is focused on broad debuff mechanics changes and not the right place for a DC buffing balance discussion.
But to your point, Hastening Light isn't really a buff so much as an immediate effect. If anything, you'd apply an internal cooldown on receiving the benefit because since it's instant it can't really "stack" like other buffs do. So I think that bringing this into the discussion on debuffs is especially unhelpful. And besides, most DO's don't run HL anyway. And other effects like this (OP's flash?) also can be applied with no ICD by multiple characters. So again, I think it would be a good separate discussion to think about all cooldown-reducing effects systematically.
I want to be clear that I don't think your concerns are invalid, I just think this isn't the right place to discuss them. Singling out a single class in this thread would be relevant if the proposed changes would make the class dramatically over/under-perform. I don't think that's happening here with this change. I'd gladly continue the DC-balance this discussion on another thread.
Where Personal buffs are things like feats and class features, maybe, for the sake of balance all of these could also be left multiplicative (since it could drastically change class balance making a change like this) but in the long term it would be the route I would take.
Party buffs would be things like Break the Spirit and Hallowed ground. The values on these buffs would then have to be tweaked in some ways.
Party Item buffs are things like the stronghold weapon set and the sigil of the nine, not many things fall into this category, but it can exist in case more are added.
Personal Item Buffs would be things like the Wheel of Elements and the Tome of Ascendance. I would then rework the wheel to actually be a buff, rather than an additional hit.
I like the idea of creating separate additive buff pools. You could potentially cap or apply diminishing returns to them individually too, if there was a need. One concern is that there would need to be a consistent naming convention developed for these and I'm not sure I see an easy intuitive solution...
I know we don't necessarily love the "as an additional hit" mechanic but maybe there's potential there too. The "as an additional hits" could always be multiplicative with final damage, whereas buffs could be in one or more additive pools.
Still, I get the sense that none of this is going to get any attention anytime soon hehe... I guess the debuff changes are more-or-less locked in. I hope they do grab the couple items that eluded the cap before this goes live though...
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Have you had a chance to take a look at any of the inconsistent behaviors in my earlier reply (the big wall of text, but with bullet points)? Or is that being relegated to a back burner for now...
Yes, I took a look, but I'm afraid that's going to have to wait for now. (It's super-helpful having the list to refer to, though, so thank you for that!)
Keep in mind that revamping all buffs is a much bigger project than the damage vulnerability debuffs revamp.
It involves a *lot* more powers first of all. I just checked, and the damage vulnerability changes involved changing about 100 files (about half of that is powers, and about half is class files, where these particular diminishing return formulas live). An overall buff stacking revamp would be at least 10x that.
The other thing to keep in mind is that damage vulnerability already had a cap. So the change was "just" changing one kind of cap for another, and bringing in a few miscellaneous uncapped powers into the fold. Adding a cap or diminishing returns where there was none before would change things a lot. So there isn't an obvious "this will just make things better and cleaner, but keep everyone's power levels roughly the same" solution. There will, of necessity, be massive buffing and nerfing all over the place with a change like that. So we shouldn't push it out in a rush.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. But it's definitely a project that's big enough that it will need some serious time scheduled to get it done, and right now there are other things ahead of it in the queue. I do still want to do it, though!
Where Personal buffs are things like feats and class features, maybe, for the sake of balance all of these could also be left multiplicative (since it could drastically change class balance making a change like this) but in the long term it would be the route I would take.
Party buffs would be things like Break the Spirit and Hallowed ground. The values on these buffs would then have to be tweaked in some ways.
Party Item buffs are things like the stronghold weapon set and the sigil of the nine, not many things fall into this category, but it can exist in case more are added.
Personal Item Buffs would be things like the Wheel of Elements and the Tome of Ascendance. I would then rework the wheel to actually be a buff, rather than an additional hit.
This would help balance in some ways, but if a change like this is made it should be dome carefully with careful consideration for new values for powers etc.
Making a couple of DC feats stop stacking isn't going to nuke the synergy between a group with one AC/DC and one DO/DC anyway, and you can still do things with two DCs like one empowered BtS and one empowered FF.
Seems like off-topic rabble-rousing.
IF you put 2 clerics make the intomitable strike to have almost no cooldown you have right is not so important.
@mamalion1234 I don't even see how this whole thing about hastening light matters anyhow, as a DO DC, I don't even use it in a 2 dc party...
flat cooldown reductions affects the party overall perfomance. IF you have and 2nd cleric becomes a spamming fest of encounters . Astral shields intomitables spam ( encounters high cooldown) guardians focused on power critical and not recovery they spam into the fray killing the purpose of timing the powers. As do i use insight and hastening light for me and the team you have a better class feat that u use and why?
Divine Fortune and Terrifying Insight for higher uptime on BtS. AC DC is already using Hastening Light and a GWF still needs to self buff for IBS to deal any damage. As amazing as a rotation consisting solely of IBS sounds, it will do less than a well balanced rotation.
I like the idea but i would rather put all buffs in a bag and apply a curve to it because let's suppose that i'm a dps class but i want to build tanky, if i choose a companion with defense stat that defense can be nullified by exterior buffs to my DR while an archon will always be useful, the game doesn't support this play style but i hope one day it will i've been waiting 2 years to play sentinel so what are some more modules ? xD. Adding all team buffs but still allow it's multiplication will still still give high privilege to offensive stats. What @mamalion1234 is saying should be analized, makes little to none sence things like aura gifts not stacking but weapons of light do.
Post edited by treesclimber on
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
Have you had a chance to take a look at any of the inconsistent behaviors in my earlier reply (the big wall of text, but with bullet points)? Or is that being relegated to a back burner for now...
Yes, I took a look, but I'm afraid that's going to have to wait for now. (It's super-helpful having the list to refer to, though, so thank you for that!)
Keep in mind that revamping all buffs is a much bigger project than the damage vulnerability debuffs revamp.
It involves a *lot* more powers first of all. I just checked, and the damage vulnerability changes involved changing about 100 files (about half of that is powers, and about half is class files, where these particular diminishing return formulas live). An overall buff stacking revamp would be at least 10x that.
The other thing to keep in mind is that damage vulnerability already had a cap. So the change was "just" changing one kind of cap for another, and bringing in a few miscellaneous uncapped powers into the fold. Adding a cap or diminishing returns where there was none before would change things a lot. So there isn't an obvious "this will just make things better and cleaner, but keep everyone's power levels roughly the same" solution. There will, of necessity, be massive buffing and nerfing all over the place with a change like that. So we shouldn't push it out in a rush.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. But it's definitely a project that's big enough that it will need some serious time scheduled to get it done, and right now there are other things ahead of it in the queue. I do still want to do it, though!
Where Personal buffs are things like feats and class features, maybe, for the sake of balance all of these could also be left multiplicative (since it could drastically change class balance making a change like this) but in the long term it would be the route I would take.
Party buffs would be things like Break the Spirit and Hallowed ground. The values on these buffs would then have to be tweaked in some ways.
Party Item buffs are things like the stronghold weapon set and the sigil of the nine, not many things fall into this category, but it can exist in case more are added.
Personal Item Buffs would be things like the Wheel of Elements and the Tome of Ascendance. I would then rework the wheel to actually be a buff, rather than an additional hit.
This would help balance in some ways, but if a change like this is made it should be dome carefully with careful consideration for new values for powers etc.
Making a couple of DC feats stop stacking isn't going to nuke the synergy between a group with one AC/DC and one DO/DC anyway, and you can still do things with two DCs like one empowered BtS and one empowered FF.
Seems like off-topic rabble-rousing.
IF you put 2 clerics make the intomitable strike to have almost no cooldown you have right is not so important.
@mamalion1234 I don't even see how this whole thing about hastening light matters anyhow, as a DO DC, I don't even use it in a 2 dc party...
flat cooldown reductions affects the party overall perfomance. IF you have and 2nd cleric becomes a spamming fest of encounters . Astral shields intomitables spam ( encounters high cooldown) guardians focused on power critical and not recovery they spam into the fray killing the purpose of timing the powers. As do i use insight and hastening light for me and the team you have a better class feat that u use and why?
Divine Fortune and Terrifying Insight for higher uptime on BtS. AC DC is already using Hastening Light and a GWF still needs to self buff for IBS to deal any damage. As amazing as a rotation consisting solely of IBS sounds, it will do less than a well balanced rotation.
AS do i dont have problem to build divinity without the divine forturne and have 100% uptime bts maybe something in your build. I Will stop this conversation here if you want we can discuss this to another thread my point was about buffs shouldnt able to stack from same classes and the necessity to have 2 of the same class for the maximum perfomance.
I hope they do grab the couple items that eluded the cap before this goes live though...
Thanks for the reminder! I grabbed the 3 powers michela123 mentioned (Dreadtheft, Quarry, and Ambush) and updated them. If anyone knows of any others, please say so!
I also updated the various powers that were being reduced by level 73 enemies and made it so that reduction didn't happen. In general, level 73 enemies *should* be reducing what you do, but for things that give you % damage, it's silly, since the base damage is already being reduced.
These fixes won't be in tomorrow's preview build, but they should be in the next build after that.
I hope they do grab the couple items that eluded the cap before this goes live though...
Thanks for the reminder! I grabbed the 3 powers michela123 mentioned (Dreadtheft, Quarry, and Ambush) and updated them. If anyone knows of any others, please say so!
I also updated the various powers that were being reduced by level 73 enemies and made it so that reduction didn't happen. In general, level 73 enemies *should* be reducing what you do, but for things that give you % damage, it's silly, since the base damage is already being reduced.
These fixes won't be in tomorrow's preview build, but they should be in the next build after that.
Thanks for the updates, sounds excellent
Will keep my eyes and ears open for anything else escaping from under cap.
Comments
If they did make that kind of change, then it would be important to balance buffs / debuffs in a party which would increase variety of builds in demand. I'm always for stuff that encourages rainbow parties.
It's also not clear if the current system can distinguish self-buffs from ally-buffs. It might be quite a bit of development to get it into place.
To cut to the chase, I'm sensing that you have a concern that these planned debuff changes will bias the meta towards buffs by too much. And certain classes are better buffers than others (DC comes to mind). So is the concern that the debuff rework would case the meta to favor classes with party buffs and not classes with debuffs?
I do think that that there are 2 important things:
- Players should be able to understand how things work in-game. That could mean a universal system. But it definitely means better tooltips, more lore entries, or additional published resources etc.
- Support mechanics should aim for party contribution balance i.e. one type of build / class shouldn't be strictly superior to others that can fill a similar support role.
I don't think that all of the games systems need to work the same way in order to accomplish the above goals. In fact, having debuffs diminish but buffs not diminish could allow for interesting tradeoffs between support classes, provided again that choices are balanced enough such that one class is not strictly superior to the other in most cases.Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
I don't think this suggestion would accomplish what you're hoping for.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
About these changes, what worries me a bit is the passage of player only debuff to new "global" debuff. Hadar's grasp sufered a nerf and seriously did not need it, hunter ranger prey can still become nearly useless, both of these paths are already not very favorable to bring along in a dungeon and these powers are expected to work and make part of the math when comparing to other dps classes.
So....in order to value these powers and their purpose i think they should add regardless of the current debuff but lower the max debuff, some examples:
Instead tending to 300%, tending to 270%:
Example 1:
Current team Debuff: 270%
HR applies prey: Debuff to HR: 320%
Example 2:
Current team effectiveness: 268%
GWF applies mark.
Team effectiveness raises 8% supposing there were no debuffs applied, since there are the debuff would actually be something like 270%
GWF : 270% + 12%
OR more simply:
Change some powers to really increase damage over target, like GWF marks a target and gets 15% more damage attacking that target having powerfull chalenge feat, HR would put a pseudo green mark and Hadar grasp a pseudo black mark.
At the moment we have 2 clerics they can stack weapon of light which is the same exactly feat on both paths and leads to excessive power specially if we consider that it buffs the companions too and most of the mount bonuses. WoL doesn't have any other requirements or cooldowns unlike the paladins 6 sec delay or SW 3 sec and the need to lifesteal.
And on top when clerics using daily power with the class feature hastening light they do 4 sec cooldown reduction for ally and party. the issue here is 2 clerics give to the party 8 seconds reduction on encounter and for the dc 8 sec reduction also on the hallowed ground daily. Combine that with a paladin using aura of wisdom and you can make the dps classes do way more than I think it was intended. (Back to back IBS for example)
When we look at other classes we will find that almost no buff is stacking from 2 people playing the same class.
Scourge Warlock can’t stack dark revelry or pillar, Paladins can't stack auras or powershare.
As far as solutions to make all the classes wanted in new module?
1. Treat all classes the same and let them stack their buff powers and we all know where that will lead
2 2 dc no longer stack their buffs.I am not against players doing this, I’m against the way the system works. It doesn’t give room to other classes to show their potential. I’m up for more synergy between different classes and not 2 dc synergy with other classes.
3. As a friend suggested, do the same things you did with the debuffs. Cap the power share and buff potential to a certain percentage (lets say 200% for buff and 60-80k powershare) and let people stack whatever classes they like. That way good players will be needed regardless of the class they play.
Keep in mind that revamping all buffs is a much bigger project than the damage vulnerability debuffs revamp.
It involves a *lot* more powers first of all. I just checked, and the damage vulnerability changes involved changing about 100 files (about half of that is powers, and about half is class files, where these particular diminishing return formulas live). An overall buff stacking revamp would be at least 10x that.
The other thing to keep in mind is that damage vulnerability already had a cap. So the change was "just" changing one kind of cap for another, and bringing in a few miscellaneous uncapped powers into the fold. Adding a cap or diminishing returns where there was none before would change things a lot. So there isn't an obvious "this will just make things better and cleaner, but keep everyone's power levels roughly the same" solution. There will, of necessity, be massive buffing and nerfing all over the place with a change like that. So we shouldn't push it out in a rush.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. But it's definitely a project that's big enough that it will need some serious time scheduled to get it done, and right now there are other things ahead of it in the queue. I do still want to do it, though!
Yep, and to clarify I'm not actually advocating for applying diminishing returns to buffs necessarily, but I'm interested in hearing about where you think you'll be taking these mechanics next. I made similar points to what you said replying to mamalion above.
I fully understand that a larger rework will be... larger. Far larger, it sounds like!
And thanks for the heads up about the inconsistent behaviors list. I think that inconsistent stacking behavior is kind of going to evolve into the next capped vs. uncapped meta so it would be good to address in the not-so-distant future.
Cheers,
Pickles
OR To make my question more clear that will make clerics obsolete?
OP's power sharing and auras currently doesn't stack, and they are very much desired for end-game runs (but not 2 OPs, by contrast 2 DCs is pretty common).
Currently the major stacking ability for DCs is WoL. Beyond that, the other debuffs don't stack. And buff powers don't overlap. There just happen to be enough DC powers for 2 DCs to not overlap very much with different party utility.
If you take away WoL stacking, I think it would nerf end-game groups by a little bit. Maybe we wouldn't break speedrun records for a while. But would it make DCs obsolete? I doubt it.
If you completely reworked how buffs work, applying diminishing returns to them then I think it would be really hard to tell. It could completely change the landscape, and I'm not sure what the point would be. Again, I'm not against it but I'm not certain I understand the objective of that kind of rework.
Finally, I'm pretty sure that DCs aren't the only class with abilities that stack. Off the top of my head, GF, OP, and CW all have some ability that can stack in some way. So we would likely want to address that stacking behavior more broadly.
GF Capstones stack. OP has some less-used powers that stack, especially when applied by Dev and Prot both.
Are those game breaking? No. Is WoL game breaking? I don't think so either. Power sharing might be in general, but WoL isn't even where most of DC power sharing comes from either...
I feel like you're trying to focus this conversation on whether or not a particular class (DC) is overpowered. I kind of think that this isn't the right place for that discussion, except for the potential impact to debuff change decisions. So, if you think it will be SO MUCH WORSE with the new system that they should intervene and make changes before it goes live. I just don't think it's that dire.
There's a long way to go from where we are to perfect. But I also don't think it's sensible to ignore that all of that work can't be done all at once. You have to take baby steps. This debuff rework is baby step #1.
Seems like off-topic rabble-rousing.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
I Dont think 2 prestidigation will make the parties to fill the spots for that reason are not the same league as the hastening light- weapons of light but if it is a problem it can get that fix too.
(1+Personal Buffs)*(1+Party Buffs)*(1+Party Item Buffs)*(1+Personal Item Buffs)
Where Personal buffs are things like feats and class features, maybe, for the sake of balance all of these could also be left multiplicative (since it could drastically change class balance making a change like this) but in the long term it would be the route I would take.
Party buffs would be things like Break the Spirit and Hallowed ground. The values on these buffs would then have to be tweaked in some ways.
Party Item buffs are things like the stronghold weapon set and the sigil of the nine, not many things fall into this category, but it can exist in case more are added.
Personal Item Buffs would be things like the Wheel of Elements and the Tome of Ascendance. I would then rework the wheel to actually be a buff, rather than an additional hit.
This would help balance in some ways, but if a change like this is made it should be dome carefully with careful consideration for new values for powers etc. @mamalion1234 I don't even see how this whole thing about hastening light matters anyhow, as a DO DC, I don't even use it in a 2 dc party...
But to your point, Hastening Light isn't really a buff so much as an immediate effect. If anything, you'd apply an internal cooldown on receiving the benefit because since it's instant it can't really "stack" like other buffs do. So I think that bringing this into the discussion on debuffs is especially unhelpful. And besides, most DO's don't run HL anyway. And other effects like this (OP's flash?) also can be applied with no ICD by multiple characters. So again, I think it would be a good separate discussion to think about all cooldown-reducing effects systematically.
I want to be clear that I don't think your concerns are invalid, I just think this isn't the right place to discuss them. Singling out a single class in this thread would be relevant if the proposed changes would make the class dramatically over/under-perform. I don't think that's happening here with this change. I'd gladly continue the DC-balance this discussion on another thread.
I like the idea of creating separate additive buff pools. You could potentially cap or apply diminishing returns to them individually too, if there was a need. One concern is that there would need to be a consistent naming convention developed for these and I'm not sure I see an easy intuitive solution...
I know we don't necessarily love the "as an additional hit" mechanic but maybe there's potential there too. The "as an additional hits" could always be multiplicative with final damage, whereas buffs could be in one or more additive pools.
Still, I get the sense that none of this is going to get any attention anytime soon hehe... I guess the debuff changes are more-or-less locked in. I hope they do grab the couple items that eluded the cap before this goes live though...
I Will stop this conversation here if you want we can discuss this to another thread my point was about buffs shouldnt able to stack from same classes and the necessity to have 2 of the same class for the maximum perfomance.
I also updated the various powers that were being reduced by level 73 enemies and made it so that reduction didn't happen. In general, level 73 enemies *should* be reducing what you do, but for things that give you % damage, it's silly, since the base damage is already being reduced.
These fixes won't be in tomorrow's preview build, but they should be in the next build after that.
Will keep my eyes and ears open for anything else escaping from under cap.