Dreadtheft, Quarry and Ambush are still multiplicative with every debuff and are not subjected to the diminishing return. This is an old bug, but since they are not capped anymore they should be fixed. For example, if you use Predator (archery HR capstone) at dummies the debuff is 48,8%, if you use Predator+Ambush the debuff is 71,2%. Ambush is a 15% debuff, but when you add it to Predator the increase is 22,4%.
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feanor70118Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,170Arc User
edited June 2017
Here's a novel idea: Forget soft caps. Everything is hard capped at 100% (or whatever other number). No diminishing returns. That way it actually makes sense to everyone.
To tack onto Michela's question about some debuffs losing effectiveness against enemies as they scale up and some not (I was gonna pose this if nobody else had), what about the inconsistency of debuffs that are allowed to stack with themselves vs. ones that are not? I don't mean ones where you literally apply stacks, but some debuffs allow multiple applications of the same debuff to affect a target and many others do not.
With the capping you're looking at putting in place, does it make sense to let everything stack even if you have two players in a group with Trans Plaguefire, for example? Although this poses some risk of a consensus that one enchant becomes BiS due to the biggest debuff and not needing to diversify, it also simplifies gameplay where players without access to multiple enchants don't have to fret that the one they own will be irrelevant due to duplication.
Or does it make more sense to only have one debuff from any specific source be able to be in effect because there are so many sources and the intent is that none will be less relevant due to capping?
There are some bugs with debuff weapon enchants right now too that I'll have to dig up reference threads for later if someone doesn't beat me to it. Things like first Plaguefire rank debuff being applied taking precedence over highest rank possible.
@rgutscheradev I think some of these questions are really important. I remember when you were making other systems changes (like WEs, or iLvls) you were really forthcoming with context, objectives, and dialog. Looks like you're on top of it again and it's much appreciated
I do think that there are 4 important things that have come up so far. I think it would be very helpful to address or clarify these questions / issues. Otherwise I think that the below inconsistencies may become the new capped vs. uncapped nuanced un-intuitive meta.
What is the intent of stacking behavior when multiple different people use a power / effect? Should any debuffs stack from different sources? Or none? Currently things behave inconsistently. Whether that's preserved or changed, I think it's important to clearly label those powers that stack, or create a universal system to address stacking.
Separately, what is the intent of stacking behavior of different levels of a power when used by different people? Should those function the same as the first question, or differently?
In some cases on live, separate entities spawned by one player can apply their debuffs independently / have independent stacks. What is the intended behavior of such entities?
A couple debuffs got missed (were probably custom-coded in a devious way) and are still multiplicative with the new "base" effectiveness independently of the new standard debuff. Assuming that's unintentional it's important to fix otherwise it will contribute to the opaque meta.
* There is a softcap at +300% bonus damage from these debuffs, ie, diminishing returns to bonus damage so that the total can never exceed (or even quite reach) +300%
Am I reading this wrong or is this really a hard cap of 300%?
Sorry for the confusion. I think of a hardcap as being a number you can actually hit, and then you just get nothing, and a softcap as... well... different from what pretty much everyone here thinks, so I changed it to not say that.
Anyway, the main point is that there are diminishing returns, so that there is always *some* use to adding more debuffs, but the cap is being raised (from +200% to +300%) to make up for that. The hope is that players won't feel "shut out" of using certain abilities, and everything will work consistently, but that overall player power will stay roughly the same (hence the cap increase).
* There is a softcap at +300% bonus damage from these debuffs, ie, diminishing returns to bonus damage so that the total can never exceed (or even quite reach) +300%
Am I reading this wrong or is this really a hard cap of 300%?
Sorry for the confusion. I think of a hardcap as being a number you can actually hit, and then you just get nothing, and a softcap as... well... different from what pretty much everyone here thinks, so I changed it to not say that.
Anyway, the main point is that there are diminishing returns, so that there is always *some* use to adding more debuffs, but the cap is being raised (from +200% to +300%) to make up for that. The hope is that players won't feel "shut out" of using certain abilities, and everything will work consistently, but that overall player power will stay roughly the same (hence the cap increase).
Thanks for clarifying. Just to beat this one to death for the sake of transparency.
Currently, If I hit a dummy (0% DR) with no debuffs and no RI on me, I do 100% damage or 100% effectiveness (or +0% damage, no damage increase from debuffs).
Currently, capped debuffs combined with the RI - DR calculation is capped to 200% effectiveness. That means that using RI and capped debuffs, I can effectively reach double-damage (put another way I am doing +100%). It's not too hard to reach this cap in a party.
Currently, uncapped debuffs are multiplicative with capped debuffs. That means if we've capped the capped debuffs @ 200% (or +100%), and we have say 50% uncapped debuffs, our total effectiveness is (200%) * (150%) = 300%. For this example we are doing triple damage (or +200%) from debuffs. It's theoretically possible to inch our uncapped debuffs a bit higher still, but keeping them all up that high gets more difficult in a real party.
Now, for your proposal, are you suggesting that at this asymptotic cap would we be doing 300% damage, or +300% damage? So are you laying the asymptote at triple damage or quadruple damage?
Hee hee also I would be remiss if I didn't put my list of questions/clarifications/items to address here again.
How should the same debuff of the same rank applied by different players stack? Currently it's inconsistent and varies by power / ability.
How should the same debuff of different rank applied by different players stack? Currently it's inconsistent (and sometimes outright buggy) and varies by power / ability.
What's the intent around the 75% debuff effectiveness for some but not all debuff powers when applied to enemies 3 levels higher than you? Currently whether the penalty is applied is inconsistent and varies by power / ability.
What's the intent around debuffs being applied / stacking separately when applied by entity spells?
Can you confirm that all debuffs are intended to be included in the new system and any debuffs that still multiply separately are unintended? (michela posted above about Amubsh Drake, Dreadtheft, and Quarry)
I think that the proposed changes so far look good, but the details about stacking and level difference penalty should be clarified
And again thank you for engaging with the community
Currently, the hardcap is at +200%, for a total of 300% damage, i.e. triple damage. So the new system will let you get (just shy of) quadruple damage (+300%), in theory. In practice, I suspect players will be best off stopping somewhere in the x3-x3.5 damage range and investing in higher base damage rather than trying to get to x3.99.
Stacking: Yah, this is a messy situation. 3) I have a guess as to what's going wrong here. I agree it should be consistent. My current feeling is that there should be no penalty, because the damage itself will be penalized (that is, it's silly to reduce a "+100% damage" debuff to "+75% damage" on a L73, given that the damage itself is being reduced). No promises, though, until I actually look at how the relevant powers are built.
5) Inconsistencies are not intended. Any you all can find for me will be a help. I will take a look at the 3 michela mentioned.
1, 2, and 4: More information would help me here. A complete list of all problems isn't necessary, just something concrete for each case. For example, "Power X has this behaviour. Power Y has this different behaviour. I'd expect all powers of this sort to behave like power X." In some cases, we may have reasons for unusual stacking behaviour (and our engine lets us set it in various different ways), but based on what I'm hearing, it sounds like a lot of this is inconsistent for no good reason. But the more specific people can get, the easier it is for me to tackle.
A word of warning -- inconsistencies like this can build up over long periods of time. Sometimes they can be fixed quickly, sometimes not. The current fix to the inconsistencies in damage vulnerability debuffs, for example, came out of problems discovered in the "improve Weapon Enhancements" thread (https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1227227/official-feedback-thread-weapon-enhancement-changes). On that thread, everyone agreed these debuffs worked in a messy way, but the solution took some time to implement. So some stacking fixes might be possible to make quite soon, others might not be -- I'm not sure yet. I'll try and give everyone an idea what can be fixed when once I know more about the details of what's wrong. Maybe we'll get lucky and they will all be easy. :P
Currently, the hardcap is at +200%, for a total of 300% damage, i.e. triple damage. So the new system will let you get (just shy of) quadruple damage (+300%), in theory. In practice, I suspect players will be best off stopping somewhere in the x3-x3.5 damage range and investing in higher base damage rather than trying to get to x3.99.
Stacking: Yah, this is a messy situation. 3) I have a guess as to what's going wrong here. I agree it should be consistent. My current feeling is that there should be no penalty, because the damage itself will be penalized (that is, it's silly to reduce a "+100% damage" debuff to "+75% damage" on a L73, given that the damage itself is being reduced). No promises, though, until I actually look at how the relevant powers are built.
5) Inconsistencies are not intended. Any you all can find for me will be a help. I will take a look at the 3 michela mentioned.
1, 2, and 4: More information would help me here. A complete list of all problems isn't necessary, just something concrete for each case. For example, "Power X has this behaviour. Power Y has this different behaviour. I'd expect all powers of this sort to behave like power X." In some cases, we may have reasons for unusual stacking behaviour (and our engine lets us set it in various different ways), but based on what I'm hearing, it sounds like a lot of this is inconsistent for no good reason. But the more specific people can get, the easier it is for me to tackle.
Understood that what is intended in the new system is a +300% (quadruple base damage) cap, and everything should live under this cap.
I hear you loud and clear that the issues I raised may or may not be possible to address given resource and time constraints. Below you'll find my best effort to try to give you leads, as well as a proposal for stacking behavior. I'm also calling out to the heavens and hells in an effort to summon the nebulous debuff brain trust for their expertise
Tagged you lot because ya'll might have information about debuff stacking and also any debuffs that are not falling under cap. Thank you in advance for any thoughts you're willing to contribute. Maybe you can also weigh in critically on my stacking mechanics suggestion.
Current Stacking Behavior Inconsistencies (compiled from thread referenced at bottom of post)
Summoned Companions: The summoned companion debuffs "Consumed by Battle" (Sellsword, Con Artist, Mercenary Rebel) and "Deadly Infection" (Ambush Drake) do stack when applied by different player's companions. The summoned companion debuff "Shield Slam" (Dancing Shield) does not stack when applied by different player's companions.
Frost Enchantment: When multiple players first apply the debuff, it won't stack. But then after the first 20 second cooldown is elapsed it will start stacking.
Plague Fire Enchantment: If you have 2 of the same rank then they don't stack and just 1 is applied. And if you have 2 of different ranks they cancel each other out entirely and no debuff is applied.
Dread Enchantment: The standard debuff only stacks if the debuffs are different ranks. The additional debuff applied on crit does stack when applied by different players.
Red Mark: GF and GWF marks don't currently stack but appear to give best-of (?) for whoever is hitting (since the debuff can be higher for the mark's owner), and the War Boar mark does not stack with the other marks.
Fancy Red Mark: GF tab mark can stack with the Enforced Thread (ET) mark if the tab is applied first, but not if ET is applied first.
Other Red Marks: GWF's Daring Shout mark does not stack with the Indomitable Battle Strike mark.
Yellow Marks: OP's mark (Bane) stacks with the other marks, but it's yellow.
SW's: Pillar of Power debuff stacks (the power buff doesn't). Dreadtheft doesn't stack. Infernal Wrath stacks (but doesn't work in PVP).
Heart of the Black Dragon Artifact debuff only stacks if the debuffs are different ranks.
Drow's darkfire debuff can maybe sometimes be stacked by some skill combinations (don't have more details on this)
Entity spells can apply debuffs separately from their owners. I'm not sure I know all of the entity powers, but I believe that many classes have them. Examples for CW are Icy Terrain or Column of Ice. TR has Smoke Bomb. SW has Pillar of Power. Also mirage weapon illusions also appear to count as separate entities for applying some debuffs.
Stacking Behavior Proposal
I think that debuff stacking should be intuitive and predictable for the average player without requiring a lot of in-party coordination / individual inspecting to avoid wasting buffs that don't stack. It also should be designed considering what is easy to coordinate and what is expensive / hard to change. With that in mind, here is my first pass proposal for general stacking mechanics guidelines:
Marks should stack "best of each color" AKA Maybe we should leave marks alone? I went back and forth about this one, would be interested in hearing others' thoughts. Mechanics like GF's tab cannot be switched out (sad) and it thematically makes sense as more folks taunting one enemy would confuse / disorient further, but it doesn't currently stack. OP's Bane is an interesting unique power, and it doesn't taunt. If Bane didn't stack separately from the red GF/GWF marks then it would be rendered very weak. However, if marks stacked arbitrarily, would it be too strong? The current mess (to be best of my understanding) is kind of "best of each color" so maybe we could leave it at that?
Class powers should not stack. They are easy to predict based on player classes. They require some coordination if you have duplicates of a class, but that can be handled by those folks individually. It also encourages build diversity, because otherwise we run the risk of "one build to rule them all".
Weapon Enchantment (WE) and Artifact debuffs should stack. It's not easy to coordinate switching out expensive WEs. Having them stack avoids that frustration / need for coordinating things that are not easy to see from glancing at the party. It also keeps the debuff WEs as viable competitors to the pure damage WEs for support and hybrid classes. I think that just putting them under cap tones them down enough, and removing stacking would be a significant nerf.
Companion applied debuffs should stack. Companions are large investments, and a lot of the same concerns apply as with equipment debuffs. Additionally, with the change to put these under the cap, they will no longer be dramatically better than other companions with damage actives or other utility powers.
When a non-stacking debuff is re-applied, it's duration should be refreshed
When a stacking debuff is re-applied, it's stack count should be incremented and the duration refreshed (similar to how ya'll redid DoTs)
When debuffs of different ranks are applied, they aggregate stacks separately, have separate timers, and are refreshed separately by their appropriate rank. If it's a stacking debuff, then both sets of stacks are applied. If it's a non-stacking debuff, only the highest value debuff is applied.
Debuffs should not be affected by the 75% effectiveness penalty from being applied to enemies that are 3 levels above the player.
Entity powers should apply / refresh debuff stacks for their owners. This may be very difficult to address, but thematically it makes more sense that spells apply debuffs for their owners. I don't personally feel very strongly about this, would be interested in hearing opinions.
Mirage Illusions (and other summons) should stack separately It appears to work this way now? And I guess it's not bad thematically. It also brings an interesting twist to the mirage weps, although the uptime is limited by the summon mechanic. I don't personally feel very strongly about this, would be interested in hearing opinions.
I know it's not perfect, but it's my preliminary proposal. I think the most controversial one would be to remove stacking from all class powers. Not sure if that would horribly cripple some classes... Would be interested in hearing what you or others in the community have to say
PPS: Apologies in advance for any of the examples that I got wrong / misinterpreted / have been fixed since they were last tested. I did my best to only pull stuff I thought was still broken as of recent.
You never see it, you just see increased efficiency, and same is for most debuffs unless they do damage also. The frost damage you see for example is the weapon damage component, not the debuff, swath and combustive, don't show either. You just notice them in ACT through their effect (increase in effectiveness column).
> @rgutscheradev said: > dupeks, > > Currently, the hardcap is at +200%, for a total of 300% damage, i.e. triple damage. So the new system will let you get (just shy of) quadruple damage (+300%), in theory.
Really ? At the moment, I'm pretty sure you have a base effectiveness of 100% and a hard cap of 200%. So, it means when you reach the cap (without uncapped debuff added), you deal double damage and not triple as you said.
Am I wrong ?
And could you consider enhance Plaguefire damage (like you wanted to before mod 11) as it isn't an uncapped and multiplicative debuff anymore, please ? It was the only reason to let it like it is now.
You never see it, you just see increased efficiency, and same is for most debuffs unless they do damage also. The frost damage you see for example is the weapon damage component, not the debuff, swath and combustive, don't show either. You just notice them in ACT through their effect (increase in effectiveness column).
To rephrase in order to make sure I understand: currently many debuffs do not show icons on the debuff bar or enemy in any way. You see their effect when you bonk them on the head and deal increased damage (and you can do so precisely with ACT), but there is no other in-game indication that the debuff is active.
Examples of these kinds of invisible debuffs are Frost Enchantment, CW's Swath of Destruction and Combustive Action.
You never see it, you just see increased efficiency, and same is for most debuffs unless they do damage also. The frost damage you see for example is the weapon damage component, not the debuff, swath and combustive, don't show either. You just notice them in ACT through their effect (increase in effectiveness column).
To rephrase in order to make sure I understand: currently many debuffs do not show icons on the debuff bar or enemy in any way. You see their effect when you bonk them on the head and deal increased damage (and you can do so precisely with ACT), but there is no other in-game indication that the debuff is active.
Examples of these kinds of invisible debuffs are Frost Enchantment, CW's Swath of Destruction and Combustive Action.
Sorry, perhaps I phrased it wrong, you can see the icons on the boss you just don't see them as records in ACT. Darkfire and Faerie Fire have their own (same) Icons on boss (Renegade Menzoberranzan here) and so is smolder, rimfire, and all the debuffs I use. That's how I know if they are up and for how long, so I can reactivate them and if and when they stack.
Sorry, perhaps I phrased it wrong, you can see the icons on the boss you just don't see them as records in ACT. Darkfire and Faerie Fire have their own (same) Icons on boss (Renegade Menzoberranzan here) and so is smolder, rimfire, and all the debuffs I use. That's how I know if they are up and for how long, so I can reactivate them and if and when they stack.
Haha I think I get it. I think you were replying to @brewald that Darkfire will not show up in ACT outside of the effectiveness column. Did I get it right this time?
Sorry, perhaps I phrased it wrong, you can see the icons on the boss you just don't see them as records in ACT. Darkfire and Faerie Fire have their own (same) Icons on boss (Renegade Menzoberranzan here) and so is smolder, rimfire, and all the debuffs I use. That's how I know if they are up and for how long, so I can reactivate them and if and when they stack.
Haha I think I get it. I think you were replying to @tenetomb that Darkfire will not show up in ACT outside of the effectiveness column. Did I get it right this time?
Yes and you are right, I forgot to quote... 4 years and still noob at forums
And in my opinion, everything should go into the debufs. Meaning it all should stack. This will both simply things, and allow for everyone to contribute and more so now with loadouts a group can make a decision about where they will gain more, from a personal dps setup or a debuff setup of each class / char in the party. So there shouldn't be an issue of using this or that. The only exception I can think of is weapon enchants, to create artificial market for similar enchants. But as I've said, IMO, it all should stack.
And in my opinion, everything should go into the debufs. Meaning it all should stack. This will both simply things, and allow for everyone to contribute and more so now with loadouts a group can make a decision about where they will gain more, from a personal dps setup or a debuff setup of each class / char in the party. So there shouldn't be an issue of using this or that. The only exception I can think of is weapon enchants, to create artificial market for similar enchants. But as I've said, IMO, it all should stack.
Yep the diminishing returns quickly get pretty punitive.
Borrowing from your equation, it matches what rgutscheradev said at the top. At 50% debuff -> 47.4% diminished actual At 100% debuff -> 92.5% diminished actual At 150% debuff ->129.5% diminished actual At 200% debuff -> 158.3% diminished actual At 250% debuff -> 180.4% diminished actual At 300% debuff -> 197.7% diminished actual At 350% debuff -> 211.3% diminished actual At 400% debuff -> 222.3% diminished actual At 450% debuff -> 231.2% diminished actual At 500% debuff -> 238.5% diminished actual
So generally speaking: Everything above ~200% is diminished by more than half (x0.5 effective) Everything above ~300% is diminished by more than two thirds (x0.33 effective). Everything above ~400% is diminished by more than four fifths (x0.2 effective) And it continues to become more punitive as you go higher.
The only thing I am unsure about is whether class powers/feats should stack. I guess with how heavily penalized the debuffs get above 300%, pure support classes wouldn't be completely out of hand. At a certain point you'd be better off switching to dps instead of stacking higher debuffs. It might actually not be too detrimental to build variety, as folks would need to balance diminishing debuffs with sources of damage.
X axis is the "undiminished" debuff value expressed as a decimal. So 0 means no debuffs applied, 1 means 100% debuffs, 2 means 200% debuffs and so on.
Y axis is the "diminished" debuff value that would actually be applied as effectiveness in the damage calculation, also expressed as a decimal. My sampling every 50% debuffs above were taken from that graph.
Also the scaling Janne used in the screenshot is a little silly She has the X axis ending at 6,000% debuff applied (60.0 decimal value). I think the intent may have been to demonstrate the diminishing behavior.
Just for fun, at 6,000% debuff applied, the actual diminished effect would be 297.1%
Edit: Not sure what the purple line is. Maybe it represents the linear scaling 1:1 ? Blue is actual data, red is calculated formula. Thanks Janne
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Blue is the actual data, the red is the fitted function. It's not the best fit, I'll play with it later to make it more accurate, but the ideas is close enough.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
The general recommendation pre-Mod12 has been that you want 60% RI for group content (or at least for a few of the bosses), but you need a bit less (50% or so) for the solo content.
Now, we don't know yet what we need for the bosses in the new dungeon, but what do you suggest as a general recommendation for Mod 12 solo content? I'm just thinking about a simple recommendation - something to give people a simple number to aim for.
Tagged you lot because ya'll might have information about debuff stacking and also any debuffs that are not falling under cap. Thank you in advance for any thoughts you're willing to contribute. Maybe you can also weigh in critically on my stacking mechanics suggestion.
Current Stacking Behavior Inconsistencies (compiled from thread referenced at bottom of post)
...
Red Mark: GF and GWF marks don't currently stack but appear to give best-of (?) for whoever is hitting (since the debuff can be higher for the mark's owner), and the War Boar mark does not stack with the other marks.
Fancy Red Mark: GF tab mark can stack with the Enforced Thread (ET) mark if the tab is applied first, but not if ET is applied first.
Other Red Marks: GWF's Daring Shout mark does not stack with the Indomitable Battle Strike mark.
Yellow Marks: OP's mark (Bane) stacks with the other marks, but it's yellow. ...
Stacking Behavior Proposal
I think that debuff stacking should be intuitive and predictable for the average player without requiring a lot of in-party coordination / individual inspecting to avoid wasting buffs that don't stack. It also should be designed considering what is easy to coordinate and what is expensive / hard to change. With that in mind, here is my first pass proposal for general stacking mechanics guidelines: ...
Marks should stack "best of each color" AKA Maybe we should leave marks alone? I went back and forth about this one, would be interested in hearing others' thoughts. Mechanics like GF's tab cannot be switched out (sad) and it thematically makes sense as more folks taunting one enemy would confuse / disorient further, but it doesn't currently stack. OP's Bane is an interesting unique power, and it doesn't taunt. If Bane didn't stack separately from the red GF/GWF marks then it would be rendered very weak. However, if marks stacked arbitrarily, would it be too strong? The current mess (to be best of my understanding) is kind of "best of each color" so maybe we could leave it at that?
PPS: Apologies in advance for any of the examples that I got wrong / misinterpreted / have been fixed since they were last tested. I did my best to only pull stuff I thought was still broken as of recent.
I don't think marking effects as a whole need many changes because they serve their purpose: drawing in mobs that you want to die first (which is why I believe the Xs are there, to denote "kill this guy with the X first").
You could make a point about how if multiple players mark a target, that would imply that target needs to die faster. I don't know how you'd balance it for PvE (maybe make each marking subsequent marking effect after the first only 1/2 as much in debuff %? Ex: first is 8% for teammates, second is 4%, third is 2%, fourth is 1%?) or PvP (sensitive topic, especially with the PvP ArmorPen changes).
Also, OP Bane isn't really a marking effect, it's more of a debuff which happens to take the form of yellow Xs. So I wouldn't worry about it not counting in the marking effect category.
--
(While I'm on the subject and this thread has dev attention: the War Boar mark does not grant Combat Advantage like every other marking effect in the game. Please fix this.)
You could make a point about how if multiple players mark a target, that would imply that target needs to die faster. I don't know how you'd balance it for PvE (maybe make each marking subsequent marking effect after the first only 1/2 as much in debuff %? Ex: first is 8% for teammates, second is 4%, third is 2%, fourth is 1%?) or PvP (sensitive topic, especially with the PvP ArmorPen changes).
Also, OP Bane isn't really a marking effect, it's more of a debuff which happens to take the form of yellow Xs. So I wouldn't worry about it not counting in the marking effect category.
--
(While I'm on the subject and this thread has dev attention: the War Boar mark does not grant Combat Advantage like every other marking effect in the game. Please fix this.)
You bring up an interesting idea: let everything stack, but apply diminishing returns to duplicate applications of skills. That would have the benefit of allowing overlapping powers / equipment, but would encourage diversifying.
I think part of the issue is that the system isn't very intuitive right now. And one of the objectives might be to greatly simplify it. That's being done with rolling all the debuffs under one cap, but stacking behavior remains a sticking point (inconsistent behaviors result in difficult to parse out differences in effectiveness -> value). So I think if there could be a relatively simple / intuitive system put into place that handles stacking, we would be well on our way to a cleaner damage calculation.
@rgutscheradev curious if you've been giving any of this any thought. I know this thread hasn't attracted the sexy attention like the PVP threads (much to my dismay... I was hoping for a more active discussion about debuffs too haha).
PS: Yes War Boar should give CA.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
SO debuffs get balance and diminishing returns the more you stack. ALso now if am not mistaken they are all additive. IN other hand buffs stay as they are and they are multiplicative. IF the goal is balance then buffs also should get the same treatment as the debuffs.
SO debuffs get balance and diminishing returns the more you stack. ALso now if am not mistaken they are all additive. IN other hand buffs stay as they are and they are multiplicative. IF the goal is balance then buffs also should get the same treatment as the debuffs.
Yes, but many debuffs used to be capped. So there was already a bias for buffs (always multiplicative, uncapped) vs. debuffs (additive to 2 math pools, 1 capped 1 uncapped). Now they've combined the debuffs into 1 math pool, but raised the cap significantly.
It's hard to know without significant testing, but I think the result is largely to simplify the way that debuffs work but not make a huge change to how much dps is coming from debuffs.
Before, most parties / players didn't reach cap. Elite parties would cap debuffs and stack uncapped debuffs through a limited number of items / companions.
Now, most parties still won't reach cap, and maybe their debuff damage will go down a little. Elite parties will reshuffle their debuffs, and will likely be aiming for similar effectiveness ranges as before, albeit with different powers / items getting us there. Ultra-high-end parties will probably see their debuffing decrease a little bit, but that's probably not the end of the world.
The reason they can make this change is twofold: 1) It doesn't appear to dramatically change the relative damage contribution of debuffs in a party. 2) Debuffs usually benefit the whole party and individual classes are already somewhat balanced around applying debuffs vs. other utility.
If they applied diminishing returns to damage buffs, they would have to MAJORLY re-balance classes. Since classes right now have different combinations of weapon damage, level-base damage, power damage coefficients, and self-buffs. If you nerfed self-buffing, classes that have more of that would likely be disproportionately effected.
Not saying applying diminishing returns to buffs isn't possible, or even that it's not a good idea. I just think it would be a significantly more complicated undertaking than the debuff changes because of the major impact to class balance. And given what we know about limited resources, probably a bit out of scope for this pass.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
SO debuffs get balance and diminishing returns the more you stack. ALso now if am not mistaken they are all additive. IN other hand buffs stay as they are and they are multiplicative. IF the goal is balance then buffs also should get the same treatment as the debuffs.
Yes, but many debuffs used to be capped. So there was already a bias for buffs (always multiplicative, uncapped) vs. debuffs (additive to 2 math pools, 1 capped 1 uncapped). Now they've combined the debuffs into 1 math pool, but raised the cap significantly.
It's hard to know without significant testing, but I think the result is largely to simplify the way that debuffs work but not make a huge change to how much dps is coming from debuffs.
Before, most parties / players didn't reach cap. Elite parties would cap debuffs and stack uncapped debuffs through a limited number of items / companions.
Now, most parties still won't reach cap, and maybe their debuff damage will go down a little. Elite parties will reshuffle their debuffs, and will likely be aiming for similar effectiveness ranges as before, albeit with different powers / items getting us there. Ultra-high-end parties will probably see their debuffing decrease a little bit, but that's probably not the end of the world.
The reason they can make this change is twofold: 1) It doesn't appear to dramatically change the relative damage contribution of debuffs in a party. 2) Debuffs usually benefit the whole party and individual classes are already somewhat balanced around applying debuffs vs. other utility.
If they applied diminishing returns to damage buffs, they would have to MAJORLY re-balance classes. Since classes right now have different combinations of weapon damage, level-base damage, power damage coefficients, and self-buffs. If you nerfed self-buffing, classes that have more of that would likely be disproportionately effected.
Not saying applying diminishing returns to buffs isn't possible, or even that it's not a good idea. I just think it would be a significantly more complicated undertaking than the debuff changes because of the major impact to class balance. And given what we know about limited resources, probably a bit out of scope for this pass.
self buff can be excluded. i am talking about ally-party buffs.
Comments
For example, if you use Predator (archery HR capstone) at dummies the debuff is 48,8%, if you use Predator+Ambush the debuff is 71,2%. Ambush is a 15% debuff, but when you add it to Predator the increase is 22,4%.
I do think that there are 4 important things that have come up so far. I think it would be very helpful to address or clarify these questions / issues. Otherwise I think that the below inconsistencies may become the new capped vs. uncapped nuanced un-intuitive meta.
Anyway, the main point is that there are diminishing returns, so that there is always *some* use to adding more debuffs, but the cap is being raised (from +200% to +300%) to make up for that. The hope is that players won't feel "shut out" of using certain abilities, and everything will work consistently, but that overall player power will stay roughly the same (hence the cap increase).
Currently, If I hit a dummy (0% DR) with no debuffs and no RI on me, I do 100% damage or 100% effectiveness (or +0% damage, no damage increase from debuffs).
Currently, capped debuffs combined with the RI - DR calculation is capped to 200% effectiveness. That means that using RI and capped debuffs, I can effectively reach double-damage (put another way I am doing +100%). It's not too hard to reach this cap in a party.
Currently, uncapped debuffs are multiplicative with capped debuffs. That means if we've capped the capped debuffs @ 200% (or +100%), and we have say 50% uncapped debuffs, our total effectiveness is (200%) * (150%) = 300%. For this example we are doing triple damage (or +200%) from debuffs. It's theoretically possible to inch our uncapped debuffs a bit higher still, but keeping them all up that high gets more difficult in a real party.
Now, for your proposal, are you suggesting that at this asymptotic cap would we be doing 300% damage, or +300% damage? So are you laying the asymptote at triple damage or quadruple damage?
Hee hee also I would be remiss if I didn't put my list of questions/clarifications/items to address here again.
- How should the same debuff of the same rank applied by different players stack? Currently it's inconsistent and varies by power / ability.
- How should the same debuff of different rank applied by different players stack? Currently it's inconsistent (and sometimes outright buggy) and varies by power / ability.
- What's the intent around the 75% debuff effectiveness for some but not all debuff powers when applied to enemies 3 levels higher than you? Currently whether the penalty is applied is inconsistent and varies by power / ability.
- What's the intent around debuffs being applied / stacking separately when applied by entity spells?
- Can you confirm that all debuffs are intended to be included in the new system and any debuffs that still multiply separately are unintended? (michela posted above about Amubsh Drake, Dreadtheft, and Quarry)
I think that the proposed changes so far look good, but the details about stacking and level difference penalty should be clarifiedAnd again thank you for engaging with the community
Currently, the hardcap is at +200%, for a total of 300% damage, i.e. triple damage. So the new system will let you get (just shy of) quadruple damage (+300%), in theory. In practice, I suspect players will be best off stopping somewhere in the x3-x3.5 damage range and investing in higher base damage rather than trying to get to x3.99.
Stacking: Yah, this is a messy situation.
3) I have a guess as to what's going wrong here. I agree it should be consistent. My current feeling is that there should be no penalty, because the damage itself will be penalized (that is, it's silly to reduce a "+100% damage" debuff to "+75% damage" on a L73, given that the damage itself is being reduced). No promises, though, until I actually look at how the relevant powers are built.
5) Inconsistencies are not intended. Any you all can find for me will be a help. I will take a look at the 3 michela mentioned.
1, 2, and 4: More information would help me here. A complete list of all problems isn't necessary, just something concrete for each case. For example, "Power X has this behaviour. Power Y has this different behaviour. I'd expect all powers of this sort to behave like power X." In some cases, we may have reasons for unusual stacking behaviour (and our engine lets us set it in various different ways), but based on what I'm hearing, it sounds like a lot of this is inconsistent for no good reason. But the more specific people can get, the easier it is for me to tackle.
A word of warning -- inconsistencies like this can build up over long periods of time. Sometimes they can be fixed quickly, sometimes not. The current fix to the inconsistencies in damage vulnerability debuffs, for example, came out of problems discovered in the "improve Weapon Enhancements" thread (https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1227227/official-feedback-thread-weapon-enhancement-changes). On that thread, everyone agreed these debuffs worked in a messy way, but the solution took some time to implement. So some stacking fixes might be possible to make quite soon, others might not be -- I'm not sure yet. I'll try and give everyone an idea what can be fixed when once I know more about the details of what's wrong. Maybe we'll get lucky and they will all be easy. :P
Understood that what is intended in the new system is a +300% (quadruple base damage) cap, and everything should live under this cap.
I hear you loud and clear that the issues I raised may or may not be possible to address given resource and time constraints. Below you'll find my best effort to try to give you leads, as well as a proposal for stacking behavior. I'm also calling out to the heavens and hells in an effort to summon the nebulous debuff brain trust for their expertise
@thefabricant @michela123 @micky1p00 @jaime4312 @rjc9000 @oria1
Tagged you lot because ya'll might have information about debuff stacking and also any debuffs that are not falling under cap. Thank you in advance for any thoughts you're willing to contribute. Maybe you can also weigh in critically on my stacking mechanics suggestion.
Current Stacking Behavior Inconsistencies (compiled from thread referenced at bottom of post)
Stacking Behavior Proposal
I think that debuff stacking should be intuitive and predictable for the average player without requiring a lot of in-party coordination / individual inspecting to avoid wasting buffs that don't stack. It also should be designed considering what is easy to coordinate and what is expensive / hard to change. With that in mind, here is my first pass proposal for general stacking mechanics guidelines:
- Marks should stack "best of each color" AKA Maybe we should leave marks alone? I went back and forth about this one, would be interested in hearing others' thoughts. Mechanics like GF's tab cannot be switched out (sad) and it thematically makes sense as more folks taunting one enemy would confuse / disorient further, but it doesn't currently stack. OP's Bane is an interesting unique power, and it doesn't taunt. If Bane didn't stack separately from the red GF/GWF marks then it would be rendered very weak. However, if marks stacked arbitrarily, would it be too strong? The current mess (to be best of my understanding) is kind of "best of each color" so maybe we could leave it at that?
- Class powers should not stack. They are easy to predict based on player classes. They require some coordination if you have duplicates of a class, but that can be handled by those folks individually. It also encourages build diversity, because otherwise we run the risk of "one build to rule them all".
- Weapon Enchantment (WE) and Artifact debuffs should stack. It's not easy to coordinate switching out expensive WEs. Having them stack avoids that frustration / need for coordinating things that are not easy to see from glancing at the party. It also keeps the debuff WEs as viable competitors to the pure damage WEs for support and hybrid classes. I think that just putting them under cap tones them down enough, and removing stacking would be a significant nerf.
- Companion applied debuffs should stack. Companions are large investments, and a lot of the same concerns apply as with equipment debuffs. Additionally, with the change to put these under the cap, they will no longer be dramatically better than other companions with damage actives or other utility powers.
- When a non-stacking debuff is re-applied, it's duration should be refreshed
- When a stacking debuff is re-applied, it's stack count should be incremented and the duration refreshed (similar to how ya'll redid DoTs)
- When debuffs of different ranks are applied, they aggregate stacks separately, have separate timers, and are refreshed separately by their appropriate rank. If it's a stacking debuff, then both sets of stacks are applied. If it's a non-stacking debuff, only the highest value debuff is applied.
- Debuffs should not be affected by the 75% effectiveness penalty from being applied to enemies that are 3 levels above the player.
- Entity powers should apply / refresh debuff stacks for their owners. This may be very difficult to address, but thematically it makes more sense that spells apply debuffs for their owners. I don't personally feel very strongly about this, would be interested in hearing opinions.
- Mirage Illusions (and other summons) should stack separately It appears to work this way now? And I guess it's not bad thematically. It also brings an interesting twist to the mirage weps, although the uptime is limited by the summon mechanic. I don't personally feel very strongly about this, would be interested in hearing opinions.
I know it's not perfect, but it's my preliminary proposal. I think the most controversial one would be to remove stacking from all class powers. Not sure if that would horribly cripple some classes... Would be interested in hearing what you or others in the community have to sayPS: @rgutscheradev
If you have a moment and it sounds interesting, I want to point you to the below thread. It might help explain some of the terminology / inferred methodology that forum theorycrafters have come up with to describe debuffs. It's also where I sourced a lot of the examples above. Then again I know you're a busy hamster. https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1226436/pve-damage-resistance-debuffs-effectiveness/p1
PPS: Apologies in advance for any of the examples that I got wrong / misinterpreted / have been fixed since they were last tested. I did my best to only pull stuff I thought was still broken as of recent.
It seems than this race feat doen't work.
Tested during lot of hours and never seen on ATC
Eleonore - CW Mof Renegade 17.5k
Harlgard le Vieux - OP Prot 18.3k
Valrik - DC AC 18.2k
Furiela - SW Temp 18.1k
Voodoo - MoF debuffer
Atlantes - SW Temploc
Borland - GWF
> dupeks,
>
> Currently, the hardcap is at +200%, for a total of 300% damage, i.e. triple damage. So the new system will let you get (just shy of) quadruple damage (+300%), in theory.
Really ? At the moment, I'm pretty sure you have a base effectiveness of 100% and a hard cap of 200%.
So, it means when you reach the cap (without uncapped debuff added), you deal double damage and not triple as you said.
Am I wrong ?
And could you consider enhance Plaguefire damage (like you wanted to before mod 11) as it isn't an uncapped and multiplicative debuff anymore, please ? It was the only reason to let it like it is now.
Thank you!
To rephrase in order to make sure I understand: currently many debuffs do not show icons on the debuff bar or enemy in any way. You see their effect when you bonk them on the head and deal increased damage (and you can do so precisely with ACT), but there is no other in-game indication that the debuff is active.
Examples of these kinds of invisible debuffs are Frost Enchantment, CW's Swath of Destruction and Combustive Action.
Edit: I was confused
Sorry, perhaps I phrased it wrong, you can see the icons on the boss you just don't see them as records in ACT. Darkfire and Faerie Fire have their own (same) Icons on boss (Renegade Menzoberranzan here) and so is smolder, rimfire, and all the debuffs I use. That's how I know if they are up and for how long, so I can reactivate them and if and when they stack.
Voodoo - MoF debuffer
Atlantes - SW Temploc
Borland - GWF
Edit: mentioned wrong @ person. sorry!
Voodoo - MoF debuffer
Atlantes - SW Temploc
Borland - GWF
Thx for your feedback, I'll track the icon
Eleonore - CW Mof Renegade 17.5k
Harlgard le Vieux - OP Prot 18.3k
Valrik - DC AC 18.2k
Furiela - SW Temp 18.1k
It's can be something like this:
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/k6dbonvo5y
And in my opinion, everything should go into the debufs. Meaning it all should stack.
This will both simply things, and allow for everyone to contribute and more so now with loadouts a group can make a decision about where they will gain more, from a personal dps setup or a debuff setup of each class / char in the party. So there shouldn't be an issue of using this or that.
The only exception I can think of is weapon enchants, to create artificial market for similar enchants. But as I've said, IMO, it all should stack.
Borrowing from your equation, it matches what rgutscheradev said at the top.
At 50% debuff -> 47.4% diminished actual
At 100% debuff -> 92.5% diminished actual
At 150% debuff ->129.5% diminished actual
At 200% debuff -> 158.3% diminished actual
At 250% debuff -> 180.4% diminished actual
At 300% debuff -> 197.7% diminished actual
At 350% debuff -> 211.3% diminished actual
At 400% debuff -> 222.3% diminished actual
At 450% debuff -> 231.2% diminished actual
At 500% debuff -> 238.5% diminished actual
So generally speaking:
Everything above ~200% is diminished by more than half (x0.5 effective)
Everything above ~300% is diminished by more than two thirds (x0.33 effective).
Everything above ~400% is diminished by more than four fifths (x0.2 effective)
And it continues to become more punitive as you go higher.
The only thing I am unsure about is whether class powers/feats should stack. I guess with how heavily penalized the debuffs get above 300%, pure support classes wouldn't be completely out of hand. At a certain point you'd be better off switching to dps instead of stacking higher debuffs. It might actually not be too detrimental to build variety, as folks would need to balance diminishing debuffs with sources of damage. X axis is the "undiminished" debuff value expressed as a decimal. So 0 means no debuffs applied, 1 means 100% debuffs, 2 means 200% debuffs and so on.
Y axis is the "diminished" debuff value that would actually be applied as effectiveness in the damage calculation, also expressed as a decimal. My sampling every 50% debuffs above were taken from that graph.
Also the scaling Janne used in the screenshot is a little silly
Just for fun, at 6,000% debuff applied, the actual diminished effect would be 297.1%
Edit: Not sure what the purple line is. Maybe it represents the linear scaling 1:1 ? Blue is actual data, red is calculated formula. Thanks Janne
Now, we don't know yet what we need for the bosses in the new dungeon, but what do you suggest as a general recommendation for Mod 12 solo content? I'm just thinking about a simple recommendation - something to give people a simple number to aim for.
You could make a point about how if multiple players mark a target, that would imply that target needs to die faster. I don't know how you'd balance it for PvE (maybe make each marking subsequent marking effect after the first only 1/2 as much in debuff %? Ex: first is 8% for teammates, second is 4%, third is 2%, fourth is 1%?) or PvP (sensitive topic, especially with the PvP ArmorPen changes).
Also, OP Bane isn't really a marking effect, it's more of a debuff which happens to take the form of yellow Xs. So I wouldn't worry about it not counting in the marking effect category.
--
(While I'm on the subject and this thread has dev attention: the War Boar mark does not grant Combat Advantage like every other marking effect in the game. Please fix this.)
I think part of the issue is that the system isn't very intuitive right now. And one of the objectives might be to greatly simplify it. That's being done with rolling all the debuffs under one cap, but stacking behavior remains a sticking point (inconsistent behaviors result in difficult to parse out differences in effectiveness -> value). So I think if there could be a relatively simple / intuitive system put into place that handles stacking, we would be well on our way to a cleaner damage calculation.
@rgutscheradev curious if you've been giving any of this any thought. I know this thread hasn't attracted the sexy attention like the PVP threads (much to my dismay... I was hoping for a more active discussion about debuffs too haha).
PS: Yes War Boar should give CA.
IN other hand buffs stay as they are and they are multiplicative.
IF the goal is balance then buffs also should get the same treatment as the debuffs.
It's hard to know without significant testing, but I think the result is largely to simplify the way that debuffs work but not make a huge change to how much dps is coming from debuffs.
Before, most parties / players didn't reach cap. Elite parties would cap debuffs and stack uncapped debuffs through a limited number of items / companions.
Now, most parties still won't reach cap, and maybe their debuff damage will go down a little. Elite parties will reshuffle their debuffs, and will likely be aiming for similar effectiveness ranges as before, albeit with different powers / items getting us there. Ultra-high-end parties will probably see their debuffing decrease a little bit, but that's probably not the end of the world.
The reason they can make this change is twofold: 1) It doesn't appear to dramatically change the relative damage contribution of debuffs in a party. 2) Debuffs usually benefit the whole party and individual classes are already somewhat balanced around applying debuffs vs. other utility.
If they applied diminishing returns to damage buffs, they would have to MAJORLY re-balance classes. Since classes right now have different combinations of weapon damage, level-base damage, power damage coefficients, and self-buffs. If you nerfed self-buffing, classes that have more of that would likely be disproportionately effected.
Not saying applying diminishing returns to buffs isn't possible, or even that it's not a good idea. I just think it would be a significantly more complicated undertaking than the debuff changes because of the major impact to class balance. And given what we know about limited resources, probably a bit out of scope for this pass.