Just came to my mind now. This will effectively be a little nerf to tyrannical curse again, since it counts as a debuff.
The changes in piercing damage will also nerf murderous flames aoe, it won't be dealing 30% damage anymore as very rarely will the aoe targets be under the effect of the same debuffs as the main target. If you hit the main target at 200% effectiveness and the aoe target is at 100% effectiveness, MF will have half the effect it has in mod 11.
I didn't finish the whole story line of mod 12, but I'm guesing Makos dies yet again.
Murderous Flames is not piercing damage the change doesn't impact MF in anyway, its still normally penalized by tenacity.
As For Tyrannical Curse, its already in more or less pitiful state since nerf I wish they would just compensate this all around DPS loss by buffing individual SW powers and capstones that are simply outdated in the endgame content - the Ghost capstone is problematic - the puppet attacks slowly, dots tick slowly, Creeping Death takes alot time to load its full damage, and to stack, TC casting takes long time and sometimes the mob is long dead killed by GWF or other bursty class before you can even start landing any serious DoTs on it. There are many many powers that actually have radiculously long cast time, are unresponsive or are weaker than CW versions of particular spells with longer CD or damage (ex. disintegrate vs. killing flames, hadar grasp vs. entangling force) and longer cast times and lesser control (EF vs. HG again), some are easier to cancel than to cast - yes Harrowstorm this is about you. All in all for a fast toon all things takes alot of time to land/cast.
TC casting time is so annoying. I thought harrowstorm was removed last mod, isn't it just a black spot there now? Didn't know it was still in the game .
About MF, I was under the impression that right now it is dealing exactly the stated 30% damage (apart from some exceptions) and not being affected by effectiveness, isn't that the case? That was the big deal change about MF on mod 10, that it wasn't going to be affected by buffs or debuffs anymore and be a fixed %. On preview I was seeing effectiveness numbers on it for the first time, that's why I thought it was changed. Still, for CD, it's going to be bad, specially for those that timed killing flames to hit when the debuffs were at max, like when you saw prophecy of doom or something like that, because the CD ticks won't have the same effectiveness as when you dealt the initial damage.
No, MF deals like 21% - 22% of KF damage against level 73 enemies, tested it myself and I think @stathisjoestar has ACT logs about that issue. I swear devs keep making sw weaker non stop, it is getting to the point it will be much better for me to retire my own and transfer all her brutals and other enchs to my gf and making conqueror loadout my main, it is absolutely ridiculous.
It would be nice to see all bosses get a second health bar. Maybe on the first health bar give them double the Armor (i.e. ~120% DR for end game bosses) It's always felt a bit odd that we could easily hit the RI needed to kill bosses and that bosses only have 1 health bar. Giving them layers of health with different armor values would be a fun way to change up the mundane boss battles.
At +50% additive debuff -> +47.4% diminished actual
At +100% additive debuff -> +92.5% diminished actual
At +150% additive debuff ->+129.5% diminished actual
At +200% additive debuff -> +158.3% diminished actual
Hey there, i have the fear that this is a major nerf for 'weak' players. I have alot of people in my guild just learning the game slowly, playing 8k-10k iLvL characters and barely understanding group synergies. Still they enjoy the game alot.
So, if these players run a dungeon they will normaly get to, say +100% debuff. From one day to the other this will dimish to the said 92.5%, so will be a 7.5% nerf to low-end damage - and that is a lot. Players sitting in the bossfight of epic Temple of Spider for 10 to 15 minutes will now take some extra minutes to beat the bosses.
Couldn't we probably have a system that scales to, say +150%, on a 1:1 base, and only after that start to quickly diminish? For weak players it would be waaay better to have:
At +50% additive debuff -> +50% diminished actual
At +100% additive debuff -> +100% diminished actual
At +150% additive debuff -> +150% diminished actual
At +200% additive debuff -> +165% diminished actual
At +250% additive debuff -> +180.4% diminished actual
At +300% additive debuff -> +197.7% diminished actual
At +350% additive debuff -> +211.3% diminished actual
At +400% additive debuff -> +222.3% diminished actual
At +450% additive debuff -> +231.2% diminished actual
At +500% additive debuff -> +238.5% diminished actual
Another thing coming to mind here: Every tooltip saying something about this kind of debuff will be absolutely WRONG in an instant.
Even if am the only player in the party, and am Fighting at 100% effectivity (+0%), using Divine Glow to get 15% debuff, will NEVER actually be 15%, but lower.
It would be at least fair to add to EVERY tooltip of such powers a line like 'This effect diminishes the more debuffs are applied on a target.'
Imagine a player starting the game in 4 weeks, he will then discover ACT and see: 'Okey, this ability should increase my damage by 30%, it does so by only 28.5%, this is clearly a bug.' Its super important to make this change understandable to all players, even those who a) don't read the patch notes and b) are not crawling preview forums - so basically a lot of players.
@micky1p00@thefabricant when you were testing the new debuff mechanics, did you happen to see how it interacts when you are not penetrating all of the enemy's armor?
Assuming that the RI - DR component below is capped to 100% effectiveness Is it (RI - DR + debuffs)*(diminishing scalar) or is it (RI - DR)*(debuffs w/ diminishing scalar). Put another way, is the diminishing formula "f" f(RI - DR + debuffs) or is it (RI - DR) * f(debuffs)
I realize the result would be the same if RI > DR, but curious how it works when RI < DR.
1
Options
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
The test was on IWD dummy, so no RI there. And yeah, was wondering about this myself, IMO, it should be:
(1 + RI - DR) * (1 + f(debuffs))
(or off course the function can be from 1 to 4, but the idea is that ArP seperated otherwise it goes into diminishing returns in the 0-1 range)
The test was on IWD dummy, so no RI there. And yeah, was wondering about this myself, IMO, it should be:
(1 + RI - DR) * (1 + f(debuffs))
(or off course the function can be from 1 to 4, but the idea is that ArP seperated otherwise it goes into diminishing returns in the 0-1 range)
I slogged my DC to port, stripped naked, and hit the big dummy.
Base hit 20% effectiveness (RI<20%, so I'm doing the min 20%) Bear your Sins (10% debuff) = 22% effectiveness Divine Glow (17.5% debuff) = 23.5% effectiveness ByS + DG (27.5% debuff) = 25.5% effectiveness ByS + DG + Doom (40% debuff) = 27.9% effectiveness
I think that's proof positive that it works like you think Janne (1+RI - DR) * (1 + f(debuffs)) where 0.2 <= (1 + RI - DR)) <= 1.0
Otherwise i'd be getting closer to 40% effectiveness (since no Arpen and diminishing still would be small). And it's sensible that with ByS + DG (1+0-0.8)*(1+0.275)=0.255 ~ 25.5% effectiveness
And with doom up, maybe we're starting to see the diminishing returns at 40% additive (1+0-0.8)*(1+0.4)=0.28 ~ 28% effectiveness, but we're seeing 27.9% because of the additional diminishing returns penalty starting to come into play.
@niadan so no, debuffs do not make up for RI / Arpen in the new mechanic XD
Thanks @dupeks that is how I thought it was working, but you never know. So diminishing returns only apply to the debuffs and arp is 100% effective up to what we think is the cap of 85% (Aside from new toppling mechanic).
Ps..thanks for the "naked slogging" lol
0
Options
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Thanks @dupeks that is how I thought it was working, but you never know. So diminishing returns only apply to the debuffs and arp is 100% effective up to what we think is the cap of 85% (Aside from new toppling mechanic).
Ps..thanks for the "naked slogging" lol
btw regardless of all this, the toppling was changed to shield or something, you can't ArP it anymore.
Agree. Arp over 85% has no affect on the toppling mechanic. I would assume debuffs have zero affect until toppled, if you are maxed on arp...or am I over thinking this? If this is the case, you would hold off on debuffs until the big bad dino is vulnerable.
Here’s how things work now: * The +200% hard cap is gone. Every additional debuff will help at least a little. * There are diminishing returns capped at +300% bonus damage from these debuffs, ie, diminishing returns to bonus damage so that the total can never exceed (or even quite reach) +300%. ** Just to give a rough idea, at +1% to +60%, you won’t see much if any change. At +100%, you’ll get reduced to +92%. At +200% (the old hardcap) you’ll be at about +160%, and so on.
It would be so much simpler if you give us the exact formula and couple examples. I don't understand the term "soft cap". What is the exact formula for diminishing returns?
Any official feedback on the significant stat drops via companions being discussed in the PC-General section? It appears to be a bug relating to having more than 1 legendary companion active?
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Any official feedback on the significant stat drops via companions being discussed in the PC-General section? It appears to be a bug relating to having more than 1 legendary companion active?
I understood it to be this change:
Certain Companions no longer incorrectly gradually gain stats over time.
I had been testing companion stats on preview when I noticed this happening. I could sit there with an epic companion and a single r12 bonding (no other gear equipped) and my crit would go from 480 to 520 just sitting there watching the companion hit a training dummy. My stats would then just go up and stay there forever. A couple days later, they released that patch note item:
Certain Companions no longer incorrectly gradually gain stats over time.
After testing that, my stats seemed considerably lower from the start, and did not increase over time. I think I lost around 4k crit and some other stats when fully equipped after the change.
I think they need to clarify which companions "gained stats over time", and what actually has been done to companions, Bonding stones and the legendary bonuses they added, because something seems broken as FLUFFY KITTENS, and nowhere near WaI...
Post edited by kreatyve on
0
Options
treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
Guys lets get serious, who had this idea of set profanity to Fluffy Kitens? It's awesome idea
Personally I find party buffs stacking and applying extremely repetitive and boring for everyone. Of course, people got used to the routine, the same way that Lostmauth' set was the routine. And when it finally got fixed since each class used it, nobody mentioned it again. Too many buffs removes party's flexibility. Those should be hi-end party oriented qualities which define playing the game above the "normal level", such as multiplicative buffs/debuffs on party/enemies. It is absolutely amazing in the content for 10+ players, of course. However, in the 5-people dungeon it's absolutely robotic to say the least. The only way to get and properly beat the dungeon is with many debuffs as possible. In a sense, this defeats the fun aspect since now each higher tier dungeon requires a DC. Same goes for the heroic encounters. The difference of the time needed to beat a dungeon with or without a DC is at least 100% more efficient with the DC solely for the use of the DC skills. The rest of the party doesn't do much unless they add it by using pets and whatnot. It defeats the class purpose and defeats the class skill use, puts the EXTREME focus on the artifact items as well as the pets/companions. After even the mounts received their item optimization the game really doesn't need more focus on those aspects but, rather, the class SYNERGY so that the each class can be equally represented in the content. Each class should have Debuffing options based on the Armor Penetration alone. That would be a rework, and actually something for the buffers/debuffers to look up for. If someone doesn't have high Arpen, their debuff is that much less efficient. But since everything in this game is calculated based on the main hand weapon damage, it's not really possible to achieve it without some heavy work and writing.
If not that, then far better GEAR armor bonus types. That way people can choose a solid armor type without the need to minmax their entire character for the sake of using one or two spells altogether for the sake of buffing/debuffing. not only will that remove the necessity to constantly add "free respec" to the people, but it will add the possibility of diversity of armor types. Let the armor types add the Buff/Debuff statuses (after using the encounter). The last few gear armor types were just adding a bit more than the previous version of the armor type - like - just RAID and ASSAULT +200 points here and there. Really silly. What's with that!? And they're all basically the same with bonuses which greatly suck (that's the truth!). The High Vizier armor set had this ability which worked for the entire party and it worked flawlessly for the entire party's damaging capability. The CW could play any class, any feat combination, anything in terms of minmaxed power values, but the Armor type would always and by all means apply the same buff/debuff, which makes the person useful regardless of its expertise with the game. And they didn't stack with another HV set. It was the thing of beauty and the great bane of everything that MOD 6 tried to achieve (or, rather, destroy turning many people away from the game). That way more than one or two DPS could enter without the fear that they'll be useless party-wise and that their role should be, instead, filtered by someone with far more Buffs/Debuffs options. Whilst the introduction of the stronger DC/GF circa MOD6 was necessary in the longer run, currently it's basically "DC/GF and the palls" in each dungeon and content. And this is the reason why many people were sticking to the T2 armor sets for so long, they worked flawlessly regardless of your power/ability level. Their tooltip was completely weird, but their function was well known. That way even players who were not overgeared could be useful and also learn from those who had more experience.
The thing that many people tend to forget is that not many people play in the parties and actually prefer to run solo content, especially for the daily quests. I often see a GF/TR trying to beat basic mobs with a lot of struggle. If any rework should be done it shouldn't be because of the people who overachieved everything in the game, they should not represent the "normal meta" but, rather, a high tier meta (high risk, high gain sort of a deal). Regular, normal meta should first strive to improve the solo content, then PvE content, then Party content, then Guild content and only then the PvP content. For instance buffing up the SW was a good choice. Reducing the GWF's abilities should be the next step. Improving the CW abilities, too, since the class suffered UNJUSTLY due to the Lostmauth' set overuse. Making the Steal time at least two-three times stronger since it's wait time is also quite long and it'd fit with the recent new content where there're many enemies. Instead, the CW's are bound to use the least damaging ability - Icy Terrain. C'mon, that's not what CW's are meant for. Allow the AoE combat to reach the new highs! Allow Vorpal enchantment to be useful to the Spell Storm wizards once again. Also making the TR more useful in PvE, especially against the bosses. If TRs could have BOSS-specific bonuses, that would make them a welcome members to any party, the same way it was during the starting mods in Neverwinter.
Currently, there's way too much going on for any new player who wants to play the game and so many buffs and debuffs working internally that it's messy to even think about it, let alone meddle with it.
I've seen amazing things in the recent CHULT expansion and this is the best expansion since MOD5. But let it be nice for each class and player and not just for the superman level players who hit millions of damage by pressing a single button without breaking a sweat of even having to move from their position on the map.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Comments
About MF, I was under the impression that right now it is dealing exactly the stated 30% damage (apart from some exceptions) and not being affected by effectiveness, isn't that the case? That was the big deal change about MF on mod 10, that it wasn't going to be affected by buffs or debuffs anymore and be a fixed %. On preview I was seeing effectiveness numbers on it for the first time, that's why I thought it was changed. Still, for CD, it's going to be bad, specially for those that timed killing flames to hit when the debuffs were at max, like when you saw prophecy of doom or something like that, because the CD ticks won't have the same effectiveness as when you dealt the initial damage.
And it seems like killing curse still sucks.
No, MF deals like 21% - 22% of KF damage against level 73 enemies, tested it myself and I think @stathisjoestar has ACT logs about that issue. I swear devs keep making sw weaker non stop, it is getting to the point it will be much better for me to retire my own and transfer all her brutals and other enchs to my gf and making conqueror loadout my main, it is absolutely ridiculous.
So, if these players run a dungeon they will normaly get to, say +100% debuff.
From one day to the other this will dimish to the said 92.5%, so will be a 7.5% nerf to low-end damage - and that is a lot. Players sitting in the bossfight of epic Temple of Spider for 10 to 15 minutes will now take some extra minutes to beat the bosses.
Couldn't we probably have a system that scales to, say +150%, on a 1:1 base, and only after that start to quickly diminish?
For weak players it would be waaay better to have: Another thing coming to mind here: Every tooltip saying something about this kind of debuff will be absolutely WRONG in an instant.
Even if am the only player in the party, and am Fighting at 100% effectivity (+0%), using Divine Glow to get 15% debuff, will NEVER actually be 15%, but lower.
It would be at least fair to add to EVERY tooltip of such powers a line like 'This effect diminishes the more debuffs are applied on a target.'
Imagine a player starting the game in 4 weeks, he will then discover ACT and see: 'Okey, this ability should increase my damage by 30%, it does so by only 28.5%, this is clearly a bug.' Its super important to make this change understandable to all players, even those who a) don't read the patch notes and b) are not crawling preview forums - so basically a lot of players.
Assuming that the RI - DR component below is capped to 100% effectiveness
Is it (RI - DR + debuffs)*(diminishing scalar) or is it (RI - DR)*(debuffs w/ diminishing scalar).
Put another way, is the diminishing formula "f"
f(RI - DR + debuffs) or is it (RI - DR) * f(debuffs)
I realize the result would be the same if RI > DR, but curious how it works when RI < DR.
(1 + RI - DR) * (1 + f(debuffs))
(or off course the function can be from 1 to 4, but the idea is that ArP seperated otherwise it goes into diminishing returns in the 0-1 range)
Base hit 20% effectiveness (RI<20%, so I'm doing the min 20%)
Bear your Sins (10% debuff) = 22% effectiveness
Divine Glow (17.5% debuff) = 23.5% effectiveness
ByS + DG (27.5% debuff) = 25.5% effectiveness
ByS + DG + Doom (40% debuff) = 27.9% effectiveness
I think that's proof positive that it works like you think Janne
(1+RI - DR) * (1 + f(debuffs))
where 0.2 <= (1 + RI - DR)) <= 1.0
Otherwise i'd be getting closer to 40% effectiveness (since no Arpen and diminishing still would be small).
And it's sensible that with ByS + DG
(1+0-0.8)*(1+0.275)=0.255 ~ 25.5% effectiveness
And with doom up, maybe we're starting to see the diminishing returns at 40% additive
(1+0-0.8)*(1+0.4)=0.28 ~ 28% effectiveness, but we're seeing 27.9% because of the additional diminishing returns penalty starting to come into play.
@niadan so no, debuffs do not make up for RI / Arpen in the new mechanic XD
Ps..thanks for the "naked slogging" lol
> Yeah strangely bronzewood enchantment prices started to sky rocket...feels like will be needed too much with new mod...
Nice, got one since mod 5 ...time to sell as long as the hipe persists. I will never understand those AH-player.
I don't understand the term "soft cap". What is the exact formula for diminishing returns?
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
I had been testing companion stats on preview when I noticed this happening. I could sit there with an epic companion and a single r12 bonding (no other gear equipped) and my crit would go from 480 to 520 just sitting there watching the companion hit a training dummy. My stats would then just go up and stay there forever. A couple days later, they released that patch note item:
After testing that, my stats seemed considerably lower from the start, and did not increase over time. I think I lost around 4k crit and some other stats when fully equipped after the change.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
That is today a run in tomb of nine gods . IS the one of the highest effectiveness i saw in this mod.
So, basically, the new meta will look something like this :
https://youtube.com/watch?v=6dxICJHd518
Personally I find party buffs stacking and applying extremely repetitive and boring for everyone. Of course, people got used to the routine, the same way that Lostmauth' set was the routine. And when it finally got fixed since each class used it, nobody mentioned it again. Too many buffs removes party's flexibility. Those should be hi-end party oriented qualities which define playing the game above the "normal level", such as multiplicative buffs/debuffs on party/enemies. It is absolutely amazing in the content for 10+ players, of course. However, in the 5-people dungeon it's absolutely robotic to say the least. The only way to get and properly beat the dungeon is with many debuffs as possible. In a sense, this defeats the fun aspect since now each higher tier dungeon requires a DC. Same goes for the heroic encounters. The difference of the time needed to beat a dungeon with or without a DC is at least 100% more efficient with the DC solely for the use of the DC skills. The rest of the party doesn't do much unless they add it by using pets and whatnot. It defeats the class purpose and defeats the class skill use, puts the EXTREME focus on the artifact items as well as the pets/companions. After even the mounts received their item optimization the game really doesn't need more focus on those aspects but, rather, the class SYNERGY so that the each class can be equally represented in the content.
Each class should have Debuffing options based on the Armor Penetration alone. That would be a rework, and actually something for the buffers/debuffers to look up for. If someone doesn't have high Arpen, their debuff is that much less efficient. But since everything in this game is calculated based on the main hand weapon damage, it's not really possible to achieve it without some heavy work and writing.
If not that, then far better GEAR armor bonus types. That way people can choose a solid armor type without the need to minmax their entire character for the sake of using one or two spells altogether for the sake of buffing/debuffing. not only will that remove the necessity to constantly add "free respec" to the people, but it will add the possibility of diversity of armor types. Let the armor types add the Buff/Debuff statuses (after using the encounter). The last few gear armor types were just adding a bit more than the previous version of the armor type - like - just RAID and ASSAULT +200 points here and there. Really silly. What's with that!?
And they're all basically the same with bonuses which greatly suck (that's the truth!). The High Vizier armor set had this ability which worked for the entire party and it worked flawlessly for the entire party's damaging capability. The CW could play any class, any feat combination, anything in terms of minmaxed power values, but the Armor type would always and by all means apply the same buff/debuff, which makes the person useful regardless of its expertise with the game. And they didn't stack with another HV set. It was the thing of beauty and the great bane of everything that MOD 6 tried to achieve (or, rather, destroy turning many people away from the game). That way more than one or two DPS could enter without the fear that they'll be useless party-wise and that their role should be, instead, filtered by someone with far more Buffs/Debuffs options. Whilst the introduction of the stronger DC/GF circa MOD6 was necessary in the longer run, currently it's basically "DC/GF and the palls" in each dungeon and content. And this is the reason why many people were sticking to the T2 armor sets for so long, they worked flawlessly regardless of your power/ability level. Their tooltip was completely weird, but their function was well known. That way even players who were not overgeared could be useful and also learn from those who had more experience.
The thing that many people tend to forget is that not many people play in the parties and actually prefer to run solo content, especially for the daily quests. I often see a GF/TR trying to beat basic mobs with a lot of struggle. If any rework should be done it shouldn't be because of the people who overachieved everything in the game, they should not represent the "normal meta" but, rather, a high tier meta (high risk, high gain sort of a deal). Regular, normal meta should first strive to improve the solo content, then PvE content, then Party content, then Guild content and only then the PvP content. For instance buffing up the SW was a good choice. Reducing the GWF's abilities should be the next step. Improving the CW abilities, too, since the class suffered UNJUSTLY due to the Lostmauth' set overuse. Making the Steal time at least two-three times stronger since it's wait time is also quite long and it'd fit with the recent new content where there're many enemies. Instead, the CW's are bound to use the least damaging ability - Icy Terrain. C'mon, that's not what CW's are meant for. Allow the AoE combat to reach the new highs! Allow Vorpal enchantment to be useful to the Spell Storm wizards once again.
Also making the TR more useful in PvE, especially against the bosses. If TRs could have BOSS-specific bonuses, that would make them a welcome members to any party, the same way it was during the starting mods in Neverwinter.
Currently, there's way too much going on for any new player who wants to play the game and so many buffs and debuffs working internally that it's messy to even think about it, let alone meddle with it.
I've seen amazing things in the recent CHULT expansion and this is the best expansion since MOD5. But let it be nice for each class and player and not just for the superman level players who hit millions of damage by pressing a single button without breaking a sweat of even having to move from their position on the map.