@devlin You are correct. I just wanted to explain the difference between 8k power and 20% damage buff, I let you guys do your own calculations and reflections. In other word, a wild DC is not very strong, you have to catch him, train him and give him much love before he evolves. I am not drunk.
This is what I'm not understanding in many of the posts going on throughout these forums and others. Obviously experiences vary due to the ilvl of both the DC and their group. But assuming we are talking about high end runs, I don't see why everyone is losing their collective minds over TI when feated BoB can outperform it on many occassions (not even taking into account AA).
Low end group (sticking with GWF example).
GWF has 20000 power instead of our previously mentioned 80000 and only rank 7 bonding stones instead of rank 12s (no legendary companion); a 50% damage boost. He is now operating at 150%.
Option 1: The wild DC is low ilvl and only has 20000 power to share. feated BoB (15%) = 3000 power shared. Thats 3000 to the GWF directly and 3000 to his companion (60% of which is shared back to the GWF thanks to the rank 7's) which gives another 1800. 3000 + 1800 = 4800 power (12% damage boost)
150% + 12% = 162% damage increase.
Option 2: Same GWF; same DC but is a DO. TI gives 20%
150% * 20% = 180%
Conclusion: In a very low level group, TI outperforms feated BoB (to emphasize; AA is NOT being used here).
Mid Level group:
GWF has 40000 power and rank 9 bonding stones (no legendary companion); a 100% damage boost. He is now operating at 200%
Option 1: The wild DC is mid level and has 30000 power to share. Feated BoB = 4500 power shared. Thats 4500 to the GWF directly and 4500 to his companion (150% is which is shared back to the GWF) which gives 4500 + 6750 = 11250 (28.125% damage boost = call it 28%)
200% + 28% = 228%
Option 2: Same GWF; same DC but is a DO. TI gives 20%
200% * 20% = 240%
Conclusion: In mid level group, TI outperforms feated BOB (again; AA not included)
The high end group previously mentioned. In summary:
The "ACDC whose gone crazy on power share": ACDC goes ALL in for power share (and stacking recovery on companion lets say) and has 50k power to share. The GWF is that same beast and has 80k power = 200% (rank 12's and a legendary companion). GWF operating at 300%.
Feated BoB gives 7500 power to GWF and another 22500 to the GWF through his companion (30000 power total or a 75% damage boost).
Same scenario but the GWF can pump up his power even further (say 90k). 90k power = 225% damage boost. Operating at 325%.
Feated BoB = 325% + 75% = 400% TI = 325% * 20% = 390%
In all scenarios, it's kinda close. I think in actual gameplay TI would pull even closer or extend it's lead since it's just "up" all the time. While BoB is pretty easy to keep going, there may be instances where you let it slip. But in the same token, I've not considered AA at all (which no matter how quick it drops, will still provide further DPS increases) nor a better version of WoL (I assume the ACDC will have more shareable power then the DODC).
Sorry for the novel (and I know it's all a bunch of hypothetical bs), but if feated BoB outperforms TI in higher end scenarios all by itself, and is pretty close in the lower ilvl areas, I don't quite get the "sky is falling" speak regarding ACDC's.
Bugs still exist within the class, but I love the fact that DO and AC are both great choices / some better then others depending on ilvl / dungeon / etc, and best of all, that we will make an even greater DYNAMIC DUO than we ever have before (I get to be batman though)
When people try and compare AC vs DO they all seem to want to do it in a perfect world. The problem with that is AA is rather useless in FBI+ dungeons. They want to talk about the power share well the problem with that is AA drops instantly in FBI so the power from it goes poof be gone. Then they want to talk about BoB, your allies have to be extremely close for them to get the buff. So unless everyone is stacking in melee its a HAMSTER shoot on who will get it.
DO provides more consistent up-time on all of the buffs, with a ton less micro management.
"The Sweet Ain't As Sweet Without The Sour!"
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Well, I mean, there's a marked difference between the good DPS GFs and the bad ones.
This comment is so hilarious to me because of an exchange with a rando GF after duoing the Rothe dragon, as apparently nobody else in the zone wished to fight it at that time, my usual spousal unit assistant wasn't handy, and I decided to see how it went with my fairly new premade archer HR rather than start pleading for help in other chat. We killed the dragon before the time ran out, but barely, and the GF exclaimed, "finally" at which point I pointed out that he had not so much as marked the dragon, and he informed me, "I don't need to". His main strategy was Cleaving at said dragon's tail-end while my archer held all the aggro and mostly couldn't gain enough distance for her damage buffs to kick in. I was managing to pull off Longstrider's whenever the dragon was animation-locked, but that's about it.
Apologies for the tangent. But I think anyone used to playing support characters can giggle and wince a little over the anecdote.
When people try and compare AC vs DO they all seem to want to do it in a perfect world. The problem with that is AA is rather useless in FBI+ dungeons. They want to talk about the power share well the problem with that is AA drops instantly in FBI so the power from it goes poof be gone. Then they want to talk about BoB, your allies have to be extremely close for them to get the buff. So unless everyone is stacking in melee its a HAMSTER shoot on who will get it.
DO provides more consistent up-time on all of the buffs, with a ton less micro management.
Hmm. I perhaps need to test this further. I've always assumed (just from my own experience and little testing), that BoB's range was quite large (like HG large)? What is the range of BoB? For that matter, what is the range of the "new" TI?
Yes, better classfeature...but in a group i am forced to run TI plus x.
Foresight? Missing HL
Hastening light? Missing DR buff and CD reset etc.
For me it felt like that, so I am happy to have a smaller ammount of feature but a better synergy in the end.
TI is the one i use more, most likely ill take its off hand 5% severity Forsight got +3% deflect off hand bonus that you share. for PVP its not bad divine fortune is still nice for solo and PVP Holy fervor is even better then before as you have no penaly on it. great for PVE (its the meta for AC build) Healing lore can still be effective if needed PVP or PVE Hastering light is also better now as you have no penalty for HG anymore
the time counter of HG is not so bad. with 10K recovery you reduce it's time allmost to HG duration. you can buff nice now with HG
Ah ah sure! Sadly BoB has the same area of Astral Shield, and it is centered on the DC. If you step to the center of an Astral Shield and then you cast BoB, your ally won't receive the buff if he is outside Astral Shield.
Ah ah sure! Sadly BoB has the same area of Astral Shield, and it is centered on the DC. If you step to the center of an Astral Shield and then you cast BoB, your ally won't receive the buff if he is outside Astral Shield.
Err, how in the world have I not known this until now???? That positively blows. Though perhaps since most people stay close (for AA), the poor range hasnt been a huge issue, but still; ugh!
Has anyone tested the range on TI? Is there a comparable? AS (like BoB; arg!!!!!)? BoH? HG?
Testing it is pretty simple. You, a dummy and a companion that's all what it needs. Get in distance of the companion and watch that buffs drop of the Moment your power drops from missing rebuff. BoB is a bit shortranged , WoL has a bit more range, not that much. Allways stay in range of the DC...hard to tell those Hunter out of sight sometimes
Testing it is pretty simple. You, a dummy and a companion that's all what it needs. Get in distance of the companion and watch that buffs drop of the Moment your power drops from missing rebuff.
BoB is a bit shortranged , WoL has a bit more range, not that much. Allways stay in range of the DC...hard to tell those Hunter out of sight sometimes
Yup I did just that (test BoB) when I got home from work. I can't believe I never noticed that until now. Feel quite dumb!
But nevertheless, it's workable in most areas of the game. Still, I am now leaning more toward DO. Still curious if anyone has tested the range of TI though.
In all scenarios, it's kinda close. I think in actual gameplay TI would pull even closer or extend it's lead since it's just "up" all the time.
The main difference is this one and it's not always marginal. The AC DC, if all the prerequisites are met, can give you peaks of effectiveness at a given frequency (depending on many elements), while TI is a seamless buff. The behavior looks like the picture hereunder (it's just an example). There are moments when the AC DC can be better (rk 12 bondings, high power share, etc) and other moments where TI is better, usually when the AC DC is recharging AP for the next AA while AA is already expired or if someone is out of the power share range. That means that it doesn't make sense to compare them by analysing the absolute values: you need to check the overall behavior in a given timeframe and check the overall result. And every AC DC has a different behavior because there are many ways to implement BoB+FB+WoL+AA while everything is influenced by the context (group composition, group equipment, type of dungeon, etc). The beauty of the new setups is that a group with an AC and a DO can be a nuke bomb because all the effects sum up.
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
Everything is situational which is what's going to make loadouts amazing for our class. There are scenarios where AA+BoB out performs TI + HG (yes AC can do HG but to do it they will have to skip some AA spam). Gift of Haste requires sacrificing condemning gaze or fire of the gods which is another conversation entirely.
Debating the AC vs DO is a no win conversation (no different than debating politics and religion) because it depends on your perspective, your play style, your party composition, etc. Even with low recovery like me, you can just about perma-HG if your in a raid which will often have another DC (haste) plus a GF (itf) and that requires no further investment on reducing your CDs or increasing AP gain. Im with @rapo973, play what you enjoy, I'd rather see people playing for fun than to max/min and focusing on 30s faster dungeon runs.
another consideration is a dead companion doesn't proc bonding, companions out of range do not proc bonding. There are a lot of scenarios that have to be in place to get the high end dps from AA+BoB which makes it variable and means you have to make some assumptions regarding up time. The math on TI is simple and dependable, that will be attractive to some, even if it does mean a smaller peak dps or even a reduction in a avg dps. There's also the build up time to get BoB casted and AA spam started.
It's easy to use the gwf as an example, rushing in to engage mobs first they will be out of range for the initial bob cast but usually you have caught up by the AA cast. Meanwhile your ranged dps has got nothing because they are all over the place, heck its even hard some times to get them in range of HG and HG covers a huge amount of dirt.
if you have extra retraining tokens (and patient friends) you can try comparing two runs, one AC right/virt and one DO right and see how the numbers compare and of course the run times. There's no way to do enough runs to make the results statistically significant especially with a proper mix of teams but it would be interesting all the same
adding another aspect: SOLOING with TI and 30% damage increases became more difficult for me than with former AA (faithful, 2,9k IL, no guildboons but almost all other boons, R12 bondings)
it was most noticeable in "out of supplies" and with ranged riverside mobs. reason: when before the patch i got to around 70k power and cc immunity at each mob/giant after the patch i reach a bit over 30k power and get thrown around/controlled much easier.
with or without patch, soloing was always by far the most painful for this faithful dc out of all classes i have played -- and still is.
Popping HG+AS is about +70% DR. You could slot Annoited Armor in top and by that nothing should really harm you, doing soloplay. But you are right, the DPS sucs and the CC in RD is "strong", too much for my taste at some points. Being rightous, things are far easier and sometimes i slot sunburst to pay back. A big point is enough Resistance ignored and a Dread or vorpal, even at lower rank.
I have 45 % RI buy use PF enchant and don't have a lot of issues soloing RD or SoMI at 3.4k IL. However my second DC is only 2.5K IL (when I give a Vorpal to use) and she was more than capable of soloing IWP+DV which also have level 73 mobs. This is as a DC and before Thursdays damage buff.
For those having trouble soloing, get your RI 30+% and learn when to attack and when to dodge. Let mobs lock themselves into attack animations then get out of the way. While they are locked in place, blast them with Divine Chains over and over then hit them with regular chains. It takes time to learn the mob animations and see the tella but once you do soloing isnt that bad.
Most importantly, get armor pen. You aren't a support class when soloing.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
best thing is to be in a guild with a barracks and a stable so you can swap armor pen in during solo play and power in during team play
blast them with Divine Chains over and over then hit them with regular chains.
indeed, with highlight on "over and over" ... fact is: it's hitting them over and over, and sometimes separately as chains radius is not very big and ranged mobs stand far apart in river district... with lots of dodging in between... tedious, to say the least, same thing every day... when similarly geared -- let me take a weaker one -- fire renegade cw for instance, without bondings, makes everything melt... not to speak about real dps chars...
my faithful dc gets armpen from bondings, so i'm at over 70% while they activate...
best thing was when there were NPCs in my team i could buff with AA etc... forgot to say that this was another speed up factor...
so, unsure, whether as mid geared faithful dc i'll stay on DO... need try out both, DO and AC, a bit more...
Anyone try to calculate the portion of fire of the gods now? we got 30% more damage on other powers so it should do less % damage now. I wonder if its still worth it
how effecitve is wepon of light for DO? (`30K power) in PVP its very weak but even in PVE i wonder if Furios intervention won't be a better choise
does Living fire proc good?
anyone have prof that Astral fury works?
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instynctiveMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,885Arc User
edited March 2017
I've run a DO Virt for 5 or 6 mods. She's always been fantastic. And now she's fantastic with 30% more damage. Win.
Well guys after reading all these posts for the lasts days, honestly I do not know if we are playing the same game...
For party purposes in general, ACDC still blows DO out...by far
You just cant compare TI vs. perma HG+AA+AS spam. My DC at 3.4k ilvl has 34k base power/23k recovery in combat/ 1.9k AP gain just can hold this as far as there are enemies around..even a single boss. AA lasts less now, but with the great passive AP gain of perma HG and other sources I can have 2 AA up at same time so often, minumim one in team mates all time for sure, if there are many mobs and AA vanishes faster, the faster I am able to spam it, and the continuos Astral Shield spam, which is the key for party survival now--->perma HG+AA+AS spam = party inmunity.
And on top of that the arficers buff puts my recovery at 45k, dailies...sheppers devotion and hastening light party buffs are just...oh well ap gain and CD reductions for party are better than ever now.
Ive run FBI and sva with my dps char and DO in party and...HG is up every 3 minutes or so? You can see an astral shield eventually here and there...my dps char is gwf, not encounter dependant, if I was TR, CW, HR...I would not now what I would think about the non existant extra ap gain nor cooldown reductions...
I am talking honestly please do not take it personal, I give my advice to those who feel like respec to DO, think it twice.
I give my advice to those who feel like respec to DO, think it twice.
I wouldn't say think it twice: I would say think it right. Power share works if some conditions are met and if it's applied correctly. The effectiveness thresold between DO and AC is not fixed because it changes from player to player receiving the buff. I suggest to go power buff AC with a high level of confidence if: - your team mates have bonding runestones on 3 offensive slots: the higher rank they have, the better. - You and your team are aware that the position matters. - The DC can gain APs quickly and he/she knows what must be buffed first. - No need to say that the more power the DC has, the better.
Very often the above conditions are met, but not always. Another case that make sense: a guildie of mine respecced DO because we plan to group together and take the best from both paragons (I'm AC).
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
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clericalistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 595Arc User
From what I have experienced, this whole AC/DO debate seems to be a much of a muchness. I have run random dungeons with random parties, whether there was a cleric in it or not, I have not seen any difference in speed, everything dies in seconds now, the only time I see a noticeable slow down if there are lots of rogues in the party.
So unless you are trying to beat world records in every run, just take the one that you prefer.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
Well guys after reading all these posts for the lasts days, honestly I do not know if we are playing the same game...
For party purposes in general, ACDC still blows DO out...by far
You just cant compare TI vs. perma HG+AA+AS spam. My DC at 3.4k ilvl has 34k base power/23k recovery in combat/ 1.9k AP gain just can hold this as far as there are enemies around..even a single boss. AA lasts less now, but with the great passive AP gain of perma HG and other sources I can have 2 AA up at same time so often, minumim one in team mates all time for sure, if there are many mobs and AA vanishes faster, the faster I am able to spam it, and the continuos Astral Shield spam, which is the key for party survival now--->perma HG+AA+AS spam = party inmunity.
And on top of that the arficers buff puts my recovery at 45k, dailies...sheppers devotion and hastening light party buffs are just...oh well ap gain and CD reductions for party are better than ever now.
Ive run FBI and sva with my dps char and DO in party and...HG is up every 3 minutes or so? You can see an astral shield eventually here and there...my dps char is gwf, not encounter dependant, if I was TR, CW, HR...I would not now what I would think about the non existant extra ap gain nor cooldown reductions...
I am talking honestly please do not take it personal, I give my advice to those who feel like respec to DO, think it twice.
You must be trolling. 3 minutes for HG. DO and AC have same capability for AP gain, neither has an advantage. that statement alone makes the rest of your argument null.
You must be trolling. 3 minutes for HG. DO and AC have same capability for AP gain, neither has an advantage. that statement alone makes the rest of your argument null.
Sorry 3 minutes is too much exagerated, my apologizes. Please just try to take from my post what matters.
The fact is that DO does nto invest in strongh recovery nor AP gain, and thats important for many things when in party for end game content.
Also forgot to say about the synergy between new weapons enchants and power sharing through high rank bondings, damage a dps char can gain like this is insane.
Sorry 3 minutes is too much exagerated, my apologizes. Please just try to take from my post what matters.
The fact is that DO does nto invest in strongh recovery nor AP gain, and thats important for many things when in party for end game content.
Also forgot to say about the synergy between new weapons enchants and power sharing through high rank bondings, damage a dps char can gain like this is insane.
TI contibution to damage seems marginal to me.
Kind of sounds like you were just running with a non-optimal DO build. "DO does not invest in strong recovery nor AP gain" is kind of a strange statement, since DO absolutely can invest in those if they want. There is nothing inherent in the DO path that would preclude you from working towards a high-recovery fast-daily build.
It's very common to see that in AC builds, which need recovery in order to keep AA up, but there is no reason why DO couldn't do a similar build focus.
Also saying that the TI buff is marginal is a little silly. 20% buff is not marginal, people spend millions on companions to get far less than that in bonus damage. Outright damage buffs are good because they are multiplicative and don't have diminishing returns like flat power bonuses.
That isn't to say that there aren't compelling advantages to the AC power-sharing builds. Like you point out, wep enchants (and insignia bonuses) scale with power.
The challenge is that in order to provide a lot of benefit on an AC power-sharing build, you have fairly high gear requirements and limited choices in order to maximize "base power" and balance that with sufficient recovery. DO can provide significant group utility with substantially lower gear, as most of the benefits are not so stat-dependent.
So there are 2 viable paragons, with different tradeoffs and niches. If you are geared enough, you also have the choice between Righteous and the healing paths (I maintain that heals have their place, depending on what you want to prioritize for your build). These changes definitely gave DO a much more viable role in a group setting. Well-build AC vs. DO provide slightly different benefits, synergize well if both are present, and offer more options to folks with limited budget.
Changes are positive. Things are less broken. And still people are upset
Sorry 3 minutes is too much exagerated, my apologizes. Please just try to take from my post what matters.
The fact is that DO does nto invest in strongh recovery nor AP gain, and thats important for many things when in party for end game content.
Also forgot to say about the synergy between new weapons enchants and power sharing through high rank bondings, damage a dps char can gain like this is insane.
... Changes are positive. Things are less broken. And still people are upset
I agree. the dev did good job and both paths are balanced.
"DO does not need to invest in recovery" is feeling i get as well due to HG. HG is the only party daily DO have. HG cool time with DO rightuous +10K recovery does not allow you to spam your daily, you will still have ~8 sec left. this makes AP gain not usefull for DO. no need to slot Holy fervor. artifact devoted sigil is not effective as well.
DO faithful have bigger probelm as rightuous cap boon reduce HG cool time by ~10 sec. the uptime of HG is allmost as before the patch if you are not rightuous. DO faithful can be very effective in PVP. TI 20% more damage in PVP is something AC will never achieve without companions. forsight with off hand class feature is very nice for PVP as well. but the PVE daily part is still hard
at the end all those calculations ae for top players with all rank 12. and even than you need to focus on specific build that include weapon of light + battle fervor and focus only on power. if you are not one of those, DO is a good option
*as putzboy said, dragon artifacts can reduce your cool time by 25%. but this means investing in 3 artifacts and it's very pricy
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
Honestly all the crying about AC vs DO will have 0 relevance in a few months when loadouts are introduced. We can have a loadout for an ac power share build, a loadout for DO righteous build, and a loadout for full heals faithful. We will be able to switch based on party needs or certain areas of dungeons. You can run DO rightous to the boss, switch to AC power since its has more utility in boss fights than in mob clearing. oops my team don't know how to stand on runes in sva, i can switch to full faithful with defense buffs. For DC this will be a very good time for us... even if we do have to buy extra loadout spots to have all that flexibility
in any case, the conversation is old, DO and AC are competitive with each other. I'm seeing parties demand one or the other but there isn't a community consensus on which is best and I haven't been rejected for not playing the other path. DC is in a very good place atm
I still suspect the current power creep is going to eventually lead to a power sharing nerf. Most likely resulting in bonded pets only sharing unbuffed stats. It seems like to easy of a change for the devs not to implement it at some point and bring challenge back to many of the games content.
it will be nice if AA wil gives 30% of the target power companions got around 5K power so 30% x 3bonding is not game breaking and we won't have to be slaves for a power build. but either way, it will be big nerf to AC
Don't let you be lure by the 20% dmg from TI. It is look great but it is only like a buff of 8k-ish power. With the majority of the players using bonding you basically just need to do BoB with 2k (so 20k base power) to give the same buff as TI. But atm geared DC have around 35-40k base power so BoB buff is far better that TI. Moreover, even if AA can be useless in some situation (balls vanish to fast) I can use HG just like a DO but I can still use AA in single boss fight and give huge buff to my party. Okay DO have PoD, but if you are the only DC in your team you will probably need to use at least astral shield or bastion as your third encounter and so you won't be able to use PoD every time. That just my 2cents. Have a good rework.
I don't think that's how it works mate, from my understanding, powers/buffs/uncapped debuffs that increase damage by a flat percentage > stat boosts because the former become proportionally better as the character they benefit gears up and becomes more powerful, the opposite is true for the latter and I believe this goes the other way around for low level players. For bis (and close to that), TI will equal to a boost fat greater than 8k-ish power.Unfortunately I don't know the damage formulas and such, hopefully @thefabricant@rjc9000@michela123 can help out with that.
ACDC will be far from useless, now you will actually have to time AA right to get the max out of it rather than using it whenever available, what we see now on lives is lulz dinivity chains of blazing light with the AA spam they come.
The good thing about the changes is that the teams will do great with 1 DO and 1 AC dc with them so it's a win-win for that class, at least for now.
where it says in the notes that AA up time is being reduced? cant find that part anywhere. This ninje nerf is worst that the hole revamp on that daily, lolz.
Now it can be taken out very quickly (just like it did a few mods ago I think) if you cast it when teamamtes are being hit by fast attacking enemies and/or dots.
Uh damn... ok... I’ll try to explain why Terrifying Insight is better than 8k power.
Let’s start with a naked ally. He has 0 power and his damage is 100%. Now he equips his gear. With bondings, protector’s camaraderie etc he reaches 80k power, aka 200% damage increase. His new damage is 100+200=300%. A wild DC appears (a bit late because the ally is a GWF running like a chicken head) and… Option 1: he shares 8k power, aka 20% damage increase. The final damage is ADDED to the previous power and is 300+20=320% Option 2: he uses Terrifying Insight. The final damage is MULTIPLIED and is 300*1,20=360%
A 20% buff is always better than 8k power, since allies always have some power before you buff them.
Of course this doesn’t mean that TI always grants a better buff than BoB, it depends how much power you share and how much power the ally already has.
Thanks for the explanation! I knew the guy I was quoting a few days ago was wrong, thanks to your explanation I see he was like super off with his statement of TI being equivalent to a 8k-ish power boost.
Comments
In other word, a wild DC is not very strong, you have to catch him, train him and give him much love before he evolves. I am not drunk.
This is what I'm not understanding in many of the posts going on throughout these forums and others. Obviously experiences vary due to the ilvl of both the DC and their group. But assuming we are talking about high end runs, I don't see why everyone is losing their collective minds over TI when feated BoB can outperform it on many occassions (not even taking into account AA).
Low end group (sticking with GWF example).
GWF has 20000 power instead of our previously mentioned 80000 and only rank 7 bonding stones instead of rank 12s (no legendary companion); a 50% damage boost. He is now operating at 150%.
Option 1: The wild DC is low ilvl and only has 20000 power to share. feated BoB (15%) = 3000 power shared. Thats 3000 to the GWF directly and 3000 to his companion (60% of which is shared back to the GWF thanks to the rank 7's) which gives another 1800. 3000 + 1800 = 4800 power (12% damage boost)
150% + 12% = 162% damage increase.
Option 2: Same GWF; same DC but is a DO. TI gives 20%
150% * 20% = 180%
Conclusion: In a very low level group, TI outperforms feated BoB (to emphasize; AA is NOT being used here).
Mid Level group:
GWF has 40000 power and rank 9 bonding stones (no legendary companion); a 100% damage boost. He is now operating at 200%
Option 1: The wild DC is mid level and has 30000 power to share. Feated BoB = 4500 power shared. Thats 4500 to the GWF directly and 4500 to his companion (150% is which is shared back to the GWF) which gives 4500 + 6750 = 11250 (28.125% damage boost = call it 28%)
200% + 28% = 228%
Option 2: Same GWF; same DC but is a DO. TI gives 20%
200% * 20% = 240%
Conclusion: In mid level group, TI outperforms feated BOB (again; AA not included)
The high end group previously mentioned. In summary:
Feated BoB: 300% + 60% = 360%
TI = 300% * 20% = 360%
The "ACDC whose gone crazy on power share": ACDC goes ALL in for power share (and stacking recovery on companion lets say) and has 50k power to share. The GWF is that same beast and has 80k power = 200% (rank 12's and a legendary companion). GWF operating at 300%.
Feated BoB gives 7500 power to GWF and another 22500 to the GWF through his companion (30000 power total or a 75% damage boost).
Feated BoB: 300% + 75% = 400%
TI = 300% * 20% = 360%
Same scenario but the GWF can pump up his power even further (say 90k). 90k power = 225% damage boost. Operating at 325%.
Feated BoB = 325% + 75% = 400%
TI = 325% * 20% = 390%
In all scenarios, it's kinda close. I think in actual gameplay TI would pull even closer or extend it's lead since it's just "up" all the time. While BoB is pretty easy to keep going, there may be instances where you let it slip. But in the same token, I've not considered AA at all (which no matter how quick it drops, will still provide further DPS increases) nor a better version of WoL (I assume the ACDC will have more shareable power then the DODC).
Sorry for the novel (and I know it's all a bunch of hypothetical bs), but if feated BoB outperforms TI in higher end scenarios all by itself, and is pretty close in the lower ilvl areas, I don't quite get the "sky is falling" speak regarding ACDC's.
Bugs still exist within the class, but I love the fact that DO and AC are both great choices / some better then others depending on ilvl / dungeon / etc, and best of all, that we will make an even greater DYNAMIC DUO than we ever have before (I get to be batman though)
DO provides more consistent up-time on all of the buffs, with a ton less micro management.
Apologies for the tangent. But I think anyone used to playing support characters can giggle and wince a little over the anecdote.
Neverwinter Census 2017
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Forsight got +3% deflect off hand bonus that you share. for PVP its not bad
divine fortune is still nice for solo and PVP
Holy fervor is even better then before as you have no penaly on it. great for PVE (its the meta for AC build)
Healing lore can still be effective if needed PVP or PVE
Hastering light is also better now as you have no penalty for HG anymore
the time counter of HG is not so bad. with 10K recovery you reduce it's time allmost to HG duration.
you can buff nice now with HG
Has anyone tested the range on TI? Is there a comparable? AS (like BoB; arg!!!!!)? BoH? HG?
BoB is a bit shortranged , WoL has a bit more range, not that much. Allways stay in range of the DC...hard to tell those Hunter out of sight sometimes
But nevertheless, it's workable in most areas of the game. Still, I am now leaning more toward DO. Still curious if anyone has tested the range of TI though.
The behavior looks like the picture hereunder (it's just an example).
There are moments when the AC DC can be better (rk 12 bondings, high power share, etc) and other moments where TI is better, usually when the AC DC is recharging AP for the next AA while AA is already expired or if someone is out of the power share range.
That means that it doesn't make sense to compare them by analysing the absolute values: you need to check the overall behavior in a given timeframe and check the overall result. And every AC DC has a different behavior because there are many ways to implement BoB+FB+WoL+AA while everything is influenced by the context (group composition, group equipment, type of dungeon, etc).
The beauty of the new setups is that a group with an AC and a DO can be a nuke bomb because all the effects sum up.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Debating the AC vs DO is a no win conversation (no different than debating politics and religion) because it depends on your perspective, your play style, your party composition, etc. Even with low recovery like me, you can just about perma-HG if your in a raid which will often have another DC (haste) plus a GF (itf) and that requires no further investment on reducing your CDs or increasing AP gain. Im with @rapo973, play what you enjoy, I'd rather see people playing for fun than to max/min and focusing on 30s faster dungeon runs.
another consideration is a dead companion doesn't proc bonding, companions out of range do not proc bonding. There are a lot of scenarios that have to be in place to get the high end dps from AA+BoB which makes it variable and means you have to make some assumptions regarding up time. The math on TI is simple and dependable, that will be attractive to some, even if it does mean a smaller peak dps or even a reduction in a avg dps. There's also the build up time to get BoB casted and AA spam started.
It's easy to use the gwf as an example, rushing in to engage mobs first they will be out of range for the initial bob cast but usually you have caught up by the AA cast. Meanwhile your ranged dps has got nothing because they are all over the place, heck its even hard some times to get them in range of HG and HG covers a huge amount of dirt.
if you have extra retraining tokens (and patient friends) you can try comparing two runs, one AC right/virt and one DO right and see how the numbers compare and of course the run times. There's no way to do enough runs to make the results statistically significant especially with a proper mix of teams but it would be interesting all the same
SOLOING with TI and 30% damage increases became more difficult for me than with former AA
(faithful, 2,9k IL, no guildboons but almost all other boons, R12 bondings)
it was most noticeable in "out of supplies" and with ranged riverside mobs.
reason: when before the patch i got to around 70k power and cc immunity at each mob/giant
after the patch i reach a bit over 30k power and get thrown around/controlled much easier.
with or without patch, soloing was always by far the most painful for this faithful dc out of all classes i have played -- and still is.
You could slot Annoited Armor in top and by that nothing should really harm you, doing soloplay. But you are right, the DPS sucs and the CC in RD is "strong", too much for my taste at some points. Being rightous, things are far easier and sometimes i slot sunburst to pay back.
A big point is enough Resistance ignored and a Dread or vorpal, even at lower rank.
For those having trouble soloing, get your RI 30+% and learn when to attack and when to dodge. Let mobs lock themselves into attack animations then get out of the way. While they are locked in place, blast them with Divine Chains over and over then hit them with regular chains. It takes time to learn the mob animations and see the tella but once you do soloing isnt that bad.
Most importantly, get armor pen. You aren't a support class when soloing.
my faithful dc gets armpen from bondings, so i'm at over 70% while they activate...
best thing was when there were NPCs in my team i could buff with AA etc... forgot to say that this was another speed up factor...
so, unsure, whether as mid geared faithful dc i'll stay on DO... need try out both, DO and AC, a bit more...
thank you for your tips!!
enjoy playing dc!
we got 30% more damage on other powers so it should do less % damage now. I wonder if its still worth it
how effecitve is wepon of light for DO? (`30K power)
in PVP its very weak but even in PVE i wonder if Furios intervention won't be a better choise
does Living fire proc good?
anyone have prof that Astral fury works?
"...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
For party purposes in general, ACDC still blows DO out...by far
You just cant compare TI vs. perma HG+AA+AS spam.
My DC at 3.4k ilvl has 34k base power/23k recovery in combat/ 1.9k AP gain just can hold this as far as there are enemies around..even a single boss.
AA lasts less now, but with the great passive AP gain of perma HG and other sources I can have 2 AA up at same time so often, minumim one in team mates all time for sure, if there are many mobs and AA vanishes faster, the faster I am able to spam it, and the continuos Astral Shield spam, which is the key for party survival now--->perma HG+AA+AS spam = party inmunity.
And on top of that the arficers buff puts my recovery at 45k, dailies...sheppers devotion and hastening light party buffs are just...oh well ap gain and CD reductions for party are better than ever now.
Ive run FBI and sva with my dps char and DO in party and...HG is up every 3 minutes or so? You can see an astral shield eventually here and there...my dps char is gwf, not encounter dependant, if I was TR, CW, HR...I would not now what I would think about the non existant extra ap gain nor cooldown reductions...
I am talking honestly please do not take it personal, I give my advice to those who feel like respec to DO, think it twice.
Power share works if some conditions are met and if it's applied correctly.
The effectiveness thresold between DO and AC is not fixed because it changes from player to player receiving the buff.
I suggest to go power buff AC with a high level of confidence if:
- your team mates have bonding runestones on 3 offensive slots: the higher rank they have, the better.
- You and your team are aware that the position matters.
- The DC can gain APs quickly and he/she knows what must be buffed first.
- No need to say that the more power the DC has, the better.
Very often the above conditions are met, but not always.
Another case that make sense: a guildie of mine respecced DO because we plan to group together and take the best from both paragons (I'm AC).
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
So unless you are trying to beat world records in every run, just take the one that you prefer.
It's very common to see that in AC builds, which need recovery in order to keep AA up, but there is no reason why DO couldn't do a similar build focus.
Also saying that the TI buff is marginal is a little silly. 20% buff is not marginal, people spend millions on companions to get far less than that in bonus damage. Outright damage buffs are good because they are multiplicative and don't have diminishing returns like flat power bonuses.
That isn't to say that there aren't compelling advantages to the AC power-sharing builds. Like you point out, wep enchants (and insignia bonuses) scale with power.
The challenge is that in order to provide a lot of benefit on an AC power-sharing build, you have fairly high gear requirements and limited choices in order to maximize "base power" and balance that with sufficient recovery. DO can provide significant group utility with substantially lower gear, as most of the benefits are not so stat-dependent.
So there are 2 viable paragons, with different tradeoffs and niches. If you are geared enough, you also have the choice between Righteous and the healing paths (I maintain that heals have their place, depending on what you want to prioritize for your build). These changes definitely gave DO a much more viable role in a group setting. Well-build AC vs. DO provide slightly different benefits, synergize well if both are present, and offer more options to folks with limited budget.
Changes are positive. Things are less broken. And still people are upset
in any case, the conversation is old, DO and AC are competitive with each other. I'm seeing parties demand one or the other but there isn't a community consensus on which is best and I haven't been rejected for not playing the other path. DC is in a very good place atm
I still suspect the current power creep is going to eventually lead to a power sharing nerf. Most likely resulting in bonded pets only sharing unbuffed stats. It seems like to easy of a change for the devs not to implement it at some point and bring challenge back to many of the games content.
companions got around 5K power so 30% x 3bonding is not game breaking
and we won't have to be slaves for a power build.
but either way, it will be big nerf to AC