NW has terrible Tank and Healer content

armadeonx

How can you say you 'know' this? FBI runs generally take 3 or 4 support and most T2's take 2 - admittedly it's mostly for buffs and not heals but we'd need a fully rounded approach to dealing with the situation and saying "nerf DPS" is not the answer.

To do it in a way that doesn't hurt the game as a whole requires several points to be addressed simultaneously.

nic1985

I am a bit perplexed by this post and a lot of the comments.

There is so much demand for Tanks and DC, i see a lot of it in LFG, private channels, guild, alliance chats.

My main currently is a Pally, DC, and CW. I play my pally and DC the most because they are always in demand and never waited long to get into a group compared to my CW. I don't wait for party to seek a DC/tank, i make it known in different chat channels that a DC/pally is available for group and often i get pmed/invite within mins.

When I first started playing my DC and esot/elol was first introduced, i was able to do so many runs that i netted over 10M ADs from drops (artifact gears, horns, haarls, salvaged).

Now that CN & SVA are demanding tank/DC much more and others dungeons as well, i mainly focused on CN/SVA dungeons and netted so much ADs already.

*Often during my dailies questing, i publicly Q for last boss dungeons strategically to get easy AD.

I understand my role as a support, I support my party by being what ever best fit the current situation, if it demands for full buffs/full heals/balance of both.

armadeonx

They're talking about the easier T1's & T2's. Funnily enough I queued for an ETOS on my 3.3k prot pally yesterday and found myself as a replacement in a group that had 1 other prot pally, a GF, a 3.7k GWF and 2.6k CW.

They'd been having problems and didn't get past the first large group - hence the leaver - but with 3 tanks buffing as well as protecting, we didn't have any problems. No deaths and a very fast clear for the rest of the run.

Two powersharing OPs and an ITF buffing GF gave the GWF a significant boost and a combination of KV, SoF & DP meant even the CW had no problems with survivability. I've often found that a run with 3 decently configured tanks (either type) means a fast and easy run.

It would've been slower with a lower IL primary dps but I've gone through CN where the only DPS was a 2.5k CW and it was just as easy.

I've done runs with 1 tank and 4 DPS and they were never as smooth or fast.

jackharper

Only nerf DPS is good options. But they will not do this because they are afraid reaction of DPS players. And don't be funny, 2 stupid dung in mod 10 and orcus it's all where you really need 3xdps and gf/op/dc, other dung you can do with all dps or 4xdps and 1 nup for helping "DPS GOD's".

armadeonx

The 'problem' is not so much their damage, it's their survivability. A DPS running with 30% DR and 25% lifesteal will survive everything except 1-shots. T2's are designed for players between 2 & 3k IL so any class running one at 4k will breeze through it.

However:
My 3.3k Pally walks through ETOS and is nearly always in the top 2 on DPS. I take no damage worth mentioning and don't bother using Binding Oath or Divine Protector. Just TW, Smite and BL until the last boss where I swap Smite for Bane to make her die faster.

My DC (which is DO so does not have AA) is 3k and can carry a low spec team through the same content and as it's a buff build will beat any DPS class below 2.8k unless they are a GWF with a well specced companion.

I have a new GF - I've got him to around 2.5k and he's nowhere near 'satisfactory' but with a conqueror build he walks through most content and often out-dps's equal level dps classes.

Players are starting to notice that a conqueror GF can deal tons of damage and challenge/beat most classes on DPS - have you considered respeccing your 3k GF from Tactician? I must say that I haven't really noticed people wanting to run without a tank though. As nic1985 said, I also see tons of people asking for GFs in PE.

swirve

Funnily enough one of our allies was saying in chat healers are not needed for any content due to lifesteal...he has not done FBI yet...

When not even high lvl players are saying things like this it just further makes the point...he is a gf tank btw...

Healers are in a terrible place right now and even tanks dont get asked for in all bar CN...excl FBI....ive seen mDemo golded without any tank or focused healer and 3k players...DC buffers used.

nic1985

In considerations, you should not need tank/heal for low tier dungeons and we all should really be glad that is the case. How else would you be able to grind for quick ADs, salvaged, seals, etc.

End game dungeons that really need Tank/heals are plenty! There are constant stream of requests for tank/heals I've seen in many channels.

See my previous post above and I emphasized that my tank/heal i play the most because they are in constant demand. It is because of my pally/DC that I was able to reach three 4K ilv toons recently.

swirve

What end game dungeons require tanks and healers exactly.

Ive seen every piece of end game bar fbi done without tanks or healers.

So again what is this content?

dread4moor

@umarachnea#5673
"Then again support roles, while always in great demand, will always remain under-appreciated and thankless roles."
So true, brother. But that is our lot in life even if burst healing were needed. Always a bridesmaid, never a bride.

"Tanks however, from a spectator point of view anyway, seem to still have a few more options than healers. The masters, CN, both demos and FBI... "
Pure healers? Yes. Least versatile of all.
DC Buff/healers are variably versatile. Less versatile then Tacticians. More versatile than Protectors or Conquerors. Tankadins... a draw maybe?
But even Buff/heal DCs seem highly dependent on the party composition... more than tanks.

@swirve#6429
I agree with your OP comments re,: pure healers. Not sure what can be done about it without DPS rage.
I must respectfully disagree with you on tanking.
Tanking is not "terrible" unless your only expectation is the puritan vanilla WoW meatshield model.
Tacticians, Tankadins, Protectors, Conquerors (unless wearing a "Paingiver or Bust" t-shirt) can potentially be versatile and bring a mixture of mitigation and buff.
@swirve#6429
"right now even tanks dont get asked for in all bar CN...excl FBI"
LFG chat contradicts this statement. ETOS, eSOT, eDemo, elol often "LF1m tank". My main is a tank. My dance card is always full.
A well built and played tank can always find work in NW.

Try checking LFG in off-hours. People are begging for tanks or tank/buffers. You are wanted, brother.

swirve

Lfg is often a low bar. Ive seen must b 3k requests for eLoL.

Any half decent group of players is above the need for healers and tanks (once hitting 1000 or more ilvl above min..excl tia) a group of DPS at 3k arent likely to be looking for a tank in any dungeons unless they want tank buff, comfort of having a tank or arnt that good.

Look at ESO and FF14 for class based models of gaming. Tanking and healing is far more relevant.

armadeonx

I answered a call for a tank for ETOS on my 3.3k pally the other day. I had a chance to look at the other guys and they averaged at 3.4k before they said "sorry we need a GF". They had a DC.

lantern22

swirve#6429 said:

Lfg is often a low bar. Ive seen must b 3k requests for eLoL.



Any half decent group of players is above the need for healers and tanks (once hitting 1000 or more ilvl above min..excl tia) a group of DPS at 3k arent likely to be looking for a tank in any dungeons unless they want tank buff, comfort of having a tank or arnt that good.



Look at ESO and FF14 for class based models of gaming. Tanking and healing is far more relevant.

In the 3K+ channels they are asking for tanks and DC's all the time.

swirve

A lot of terrible 3k plus players...especially as i said the low bar of lfg...but let me guess GF plus DC...for the buffs right...not a GF for tanking but buffing...

Also the same individual spamming need tank does not mean many are looking...i look at the chats when passing through PE and other endgame areas

So again no tanking is required when u are 1k over min lvl which is increasingly common.

dread4moor

@armadeonx
"I answered a call for a tank for ETOS on my 3.3k pally the other day. I had a chance to look at the other guys and they averaged at 3.4k before they said "sorry we need a GF". They had a DC."

Sorry to hear it, but that one incident only says those specific players don't understand the game very well (and are rude).
If they knew they wanted ONLY a GF, then they should have said "LF1M GF".
Also, when you responded "tank for eTOS" they should have inspected you to make sure you were a GF, not just any tank. They wasted their own time and yours. They are either unwise, rude or both. Either way, they did you a favor not to waste any more time with them.

As for the un-asked OP vs GF question... there is very little competition or rivalry here. In most instances, either can be useful. Depends on the needs of the party.

Honestly, as a GF main player, I feel no animosity for pallies at all. If, on my CW, we have only 1 tank slot and no DC I PREFER an OP.

And this brings us back to @swirve#6429 and the title of this thread (which is HALF correct IMHO).
Tanks ARE still in demand. There is so much work for us and NW tanking is so versatile that GFs and OPs aren't really competing.

So there is a counter argument: NW tanking is, in some ways BETTER than traditional tanking.

sev7nforums

I havent been playing this game long and am only at lvl 64 currently. But from my experience this game promotes dps roles over tank/healers in every group instance as you progress. All the skirmishes/dungeons I've run can have their enemies soloed and as a result people are usually just running ahead one another to solo their own group of enemies. I've only been in one skirmish with a dedicated tank/healer (by that I mean they were actually tanking and healing for the group rather than trying to solo) and it went smoother but it felt unneccessary since everything died in one or two combos.

Idk how endgame is yet and how much more difficult it is compared to the pre level 70 group content but if tank/healer roles are ignored as much as they are in the pre level 70 group then I think a big part of it is because of the way this game is promoting dps roles through leveling up.

ravenskya

sev7nforums said:

I havent been playing this game long and am only at lvl 64 currently. But from my experience this game promotes dps roles over tank/healers in every group instance as you progress. All the skirmishes/dungeons I've run can have their enemies soloed and as a result people are usually just running ahead one another to solo their own group of enemies. I've only been in one skirmish with a dedicated tank/healer (by that I mean they were actually tanking and healing for the group rather than trying to solo) and it went smoother but it felt unneccessary since everything died in one or two combos.

Idk how endgame is yet and how much more difficult it is compared to the pre level 70 group content but if tank/healer roles are ignored as much as they are in the pre level 70 group then I think a big part of it is because of the way this game is promoting dps roles through leveling up.

It could be that you are running into 70's who are running the low level content in high speed for the quick AD. I commonly go into Cloak Tower or the level 30 something Grey Wolves Den to get the quick 2 dungeon AD on 70's I don't plan on playing that day. Those will tear through it at 100mph but will show on your screen as lv 12 or 34 or whatever. If you look at their gear you can get a good guess by the level of the gear they are wearing to find their real level.

thrilk

A lot of people may ask for a "tank and a healer" but what they really want is a buff GF and a Buff DC. Healing pally and healing DC's are virtually NEVER wanted (except, maybe, by low IL groups) and OP Tanks are definitely not preferred.

pitshade

There hasn't been any actual group content available below level max level since before Mod 6 and even the skirmishes available at 70 don't require specific roles.

beckylunatic

ravenskya said:

I think them selling the high IL level 70's has increased the need for heals in the mid-high IL dungeons because so many people can buy a character and walk into a T2 dungeon with out having any idea how to play the character. And at first it's hard to spot them, you think an experience player walked into your dungeon and quickly realize that you were wrong.

@ravenskya The premade lvl 70s have about 1.6k item level as-is. Dunno where you got the notion that they come with a high item level. Not without sinking in a ton more monies first, anyway.

thrilk#9892 said:

A lot of people may ask for a "tank and a healer" but what they really want is a buff GF and a Buff DC.

There is a lot of truth to this. My alliance also has a couple of templocks that get quite rightfully shirty when passed over because someone says they want "a healer" but actually wants a DC.

ravenskya

beckylunatic said:

ravenskya said:

I think them selling the high IL level 70's has increased the need for heals in the mid-high IL dungeons because so many people can buy a character and walk into a T2 dungeon with out having any idea how to play the character. And at first it's hard to spot them, you think an experience player walked into your dungeon and quickly realize that you were wrong.

@ravenskya The premade lvl 70s have about 1.6k item level as-is. Dunno where you got the notion that they come with a high item level. Not without sinking in a ton more monies first, anyway.

@beckylunatic
1.6k will get you in the door to the epics. If you grind and hit 70 on your own, at the point you hit 70 with the equipment you got along the way (assuming you didn't stash gear from another character), you cannot get into the epics until you have done a little more work - and you will know how to play the character already.

I didn't mean people are buying a 3k IL - but you can buy a character and walk into eLoL, without having swung the sword yet.
Or am I wrong?

I admit I could be wrong as I haven't personally purchased a 70.

thrilk

beckylunatic said:

There is a lot of truth to this. My alliance also has a couple of templocks that get quite rightfully shirty when passed over because someone says they want "a healer" but actually wants a DC.

One of my pet peeves is people who ask for a "Healer" so you respond that you are a Healadin and THEN they say they are looking for an AC-DC. If you don't want a healer just be honest and say that you want a buff cleric from the start.

thrilk

armadeonx said:

How can you say you 'know' this? FBI runs generally take 3 or 4 support and most T2's take 2 - admittedly it's mostly for buffs and not heals but we'd need a fully rounded approach to dealing with the situation and saying "nerf DPS" is not the answer.

To do it in a way that doesn't hurt the game as a whole requires several points to be addressed simultaneously.

The simplest solution is to bring Pally buffs in line with DC and GF buffs. But if you raise them on the Pally you risk making easy content even easier. If you do it by further nerfing DC's and GF's you run the risk of DPS's just playing without any support. So in some way I think some sort survivability nerf to DPS may be required.

Another factor that plays into this is the atrocious drop rate in this game and the fact that players feel the need to run content at breakneck speed to get the 10,000 runs in it will take them to get the stuff they need. If dungeons were more rewarding I think people would be more open to "rainbow teams" and doing things at a slower pace.

beckylunatic

ravenskya said:

beckylunatic said:

ravenskya said:

I think them selling the high IL level 70's has increased the need for heals in the mid-high IL dungeons because so many people can buy a character and walk into a T2 dungeon with out having any idea how to play the character. And at first it's hard to spot them, you think an experience player walked into your dungeon and quickly realize that you were wrong.

@ravenskya The premade lvl 70s have about 1.6k item level as-is. Dunno where you got the notion that they come with a high item level. Not without sinking in a ton more monies first, anyway.

@beckylunatic
1.6k will get you in the door to the epics. If you grind and hit 70 on your own, at the point you hit 70 with the equipment you got along the way (assuming you didn't stash gear from another character), you cannot get into the epics until you have done a little more work - and you will know how to play the character already.

I didn't mean people are buying a 3k IL - but you can buy a character and walk into eLoL, without having swung the sword yet.
Or am I wrong?

I admit I could be wrong as I haven't personally purchased a 70.

You weren't initially talking about inexperienced players getting into Lostmauth though. And someone inexperienced with a class but cutting their teeth in T1s and skirmishes has had ample opportunity to learn and get better before they move on, unless they throw a whole lot of refinement into that character in a big hurry.

Someone who soloed their way up via questing doesn't necessarily have ANY better idea how to play a party role in a dungeon when they hit 70 and scrape together the ilvl for T1s either. Having played levelling dungeons or skirmishes (if you can get into them) won't teach roles either. The game doesn't encourage cooperation all the way up.

thrilk#9892 said:

Another factor that plays into this is the atrocious drop rate in this game and the fact that players feel the need to run content at breakneck speed to get the 10,000 runs in it will take them to get the stuff they need. If dungeons were more rewarding I think people would be more open to "rainbow teams" and doing things at a slower pace.

Truth bombs.

I think nostalgia for the old dungeons is a mixed bag, but for all that people speedran PK 10x during DD for salvage, most of us also were willing to take a guildie through Spellplague until they finally got their helm, however long it took. Part of that was knowing that we had a reasonable chance for a decent drop ourselves.

ravenskya

beckylunatic said:

ravenskya said:

beckylunatic said:

ravenskya said:

I think them selling the high IL level 70's has increased the need for heals in the mid-high IL dungeons because so many people can buy a character and walk into a T2 dungeon with out having any idea how to play the character. And at first it's hard to spot them, you think an experience player walked into your dungeon and quickly realize that you were wrong.

@ravenskya The premade lvl 70s have about 1.6k item level as-is. Dunno where you got the notion that they come with a high item level. Not without sinking in a ton more monies first, anyway.

@beckylunatic
1.6k will get you in the door to the epics. If you grind and hit 70 on your own, at the point you hit 70 with the equipment you got along the way (assuming you didn't stash gear from another character), you cannot get into the epics until you have done a little more work - and you will know how to play the character already.

I didn't mean people are buying a 3k IL - but you can buy a character and walk into eLoL, without having swung the sword yet.
Or am I wrong?

I admit I could be wrong as I haven't personally purchased a 70.

You weren't initially talking about inexperienced players getting into Lostmauth though. And someone inexperienced with a class but cutting their teeth in T1s and skirmishes has had ample opportunity to learn and get better before they move on, unless they throw a whole lot of refinement into that character in a big hurry.

Someone who soloed their way up via questing doesn't necessarily have ANY better idea how to play a party role in a dungeon when they hit 70 and scrape together the ilvl for T1s either. Having played levelling dungeons or skirmishes (if you can get into them) won't teach roles either. The game doesn't encourage cooperation all the way up.

@beckylunatic actually I was talking about bought characters walking into eLoL causing a new found need for healing in dungeons. It has been refreshing and frightening all at once - but I digress. I do agree with you that there is really very little in the game to teach you the role of your character in a group. This is why my crew tends to take our time and write out to people that seem a little lost a few pointers here and there. My only original point was that with the influx of newly untrained people walking into lostmauth - there is an uptick in an actual need for heals. This makes me (as a healadin) very happy since that's all I can bring to the party apart from a tiny bit of a defense buff and some shared power.

devlin

thrilk#9892 said:

armadeonx said:

How can you say you 'know' this? FBI runs generally take 3 or 4 support and most T2's take 2 - admittedly it's mostly for buffs and not heals but we'd need a fully rounded approach to dealing with the situation and saying "nerf DPS" is not the answer.

To do it in a way that doesn't hurt the game as a whole requires several points to be addressed simultaneously.

The simplest solution is to bring Pally buffs in line with DC and GF buffs. But if you raise them on the Pally you risk making easy content even easier. If you do it by further nerfing DC's and GF's you run the risk of DPS's just playing without any support. So in some way I think some sort survivability nerf to DPS may be required.

Another factor that plays into this is the atrocious drop rate in this game and the fact that players feel the need to run content at breakneck speed to get the 10,000 runs in it will take them to get the stuff they need. If dungeons were more rewarding I think people would be more open to "rainbow teams" and doing things at a slower pace.

This is the issue right here in a nutshell, particularly with DC. DC's (Buff DC's particularly) maintain their desirability within a group because the DPS the DC provides + the buffs they provide exceeds that of just picking up another DPS. If you nerf the DC's buffs (and I believe they've said they are the next to be "balanced") to the point where DC buffs + DC DPS is less then "average DPS class" DPS, no one would want take a DC (because the heals are not needed at all). They would be similar to where healadins (which is complete bs)

The biggest issue that needs to be addressed in this game is the healing abilities of DPS. It just has to give. Between their own innate healing (through encounters or feats), insignia bonuses, mount powers, life steal stats, sudden lifesteal rings, complete healing potions, soulforged enchantments, rez scrolls, mass rez scrolls, etc.... If you NEEDED actual healing from these DC's / Healadins (even if they provided 0 dmg buffs), the game would be in a better place I think.

sev7nforums

ravenskya said:

sev7nforums said:

I havent been playing this game long and am only at lvl 64 currently. But from my experience this game promotes dps roles over tank/healers in every group instance as you progress. All the skirmishes/dungeons I've run can have their enemies soloed and as a result people are usually just running ahead one another to solo their own group of enemies. I've only been in one skirmish with a dedicated tank/healer (by that I mean they were actually tanking and healing for the group rather than trying to solo) and it went smoother but it felt unneccessary since everything died in one or two combos.

Idk how endgame is yet and how much more difficult it is compared to the pre level 70 group content but if tank/healer roles are ignored as much as they are in the pre level 70 group then I think a big part of it is because of the way this game is promoting dps roles through leveling up.

It could be that you are running into 70's who are running the low level content in high speed for the quick AD. I commonly go into Cloak Tower or the level 30 something Grey Wolves Den to get the quick 2 dungeon AD on 70's I don't plan on playing that day. Those will tear through it at 100mph but will show on your screen as lv 12 or 34 or whatever. If you look at their gear you can get a good guess by the level of the gear they are wearing to find their real level.

I figured that was the case for most of the runs but even still I'm able to come out top dps and am able to solo/tank (holding the aggro) of groups of mobs and bosses. In my opinion this shouldnt be possible for me since i'm playing a HB SW with low hp/def/lifesteal (been stacking crit/power items for leveling up quicker). I think it might be because enemies pre 70 have such low hp pools and if that is the case then perhaps increasing them would promote tank/healer roles more since dps would have to start taking enemies damage in to consideration as they wouldnt be able to burn them down in a couple combos.

Then again i'm now only lvl 66 so my opinion means very little (if anything) to discussions about endgame lol

beckylunatic

sev7nforums said:

ravenskya said:

sev7nforums said:

I havent been playing this game long and am only at lvl 64 currently. But from my experience this game promotes dps roles over tank/healers in every group instance as you progress. All the skirmishes/dungeons I've run can have their enemies soloed and as a result people are usually just running ahead one another to solo their own group of enemies. I've only been in one skirmish with a dedicated tank/healer (by that I mean they were actually tanking and healing for the group rather than trying to solo) and it went smoother but it felt unneccessary since everything died in one or two combos.

Idk how endgame is yet and how much more difficult it is compared to the pre level 70 group content but if tank/healer roles are ignored as much as they are in the pre level 70 group then I think a big part of it is because of the way this game is promoting dps roles through leveling up.

It could be that you are running into 70's who are running the low level content in high speed for the quick AD. I commonly go into Cloak Tower or the level 30 something Grey Wolves Den to get the quick 2 dungeon AD on 70's I don't plan on playing that day. Those will tear through it at 100mph but will show on your screen as lv 12 or 34 or whatever. If you look at their gear you can get a good guess by the level of the gear they are wearing to find their real level.

I figured that was the case for most of the runs but even still I'm able to come out top dps and am able to solo/tank (holding the aggro) of groups of mobs and bosses. In my opinion this shouldnt be possible for me since i'm playing a HB SW with low hp/def/lifesteal (been stacking crit/power items for leveling up quicker). I think it might be because enemies pre 70 have such low hp pools and if that is the case then perhaps increasing them would promote tank/healer roles more since dps would have to start taking enemies damage in to consideration as they wouldnt be able to burn them down in a couple combos.

Then again i'm now only lvl 66 so my opinion means very little (if anything) to discussions about endgame lol

Since changing the levelling dungeons to 3-player, they can't make them that challenging because the group forms from any three players (possibly scaled down, possibly at-level). If they enforced roles, DPS would be even less likely to get in than when they were 5-player and the queue enforced tank/heal/3dps.

Everything they did to make dungeon queues go faster or whatever it was they were trying for has pretty well ruined them as content.

swirve

I think we might all agree pallies are awesome fun but healers dont fit with this game in its current form.

People ask why i keep my healadin....its a pointless class to play at endgame pretty much.

I do enjoy my GF and DPS toons but i like to heal ppl in NW the responsibility to help the team and keep them going is what i enjoy most.

swirve

The simplest answer I have @mimicking#6533 is keep non dungeon content the same (so easily solo by DPS), but make it so the overpowered self survival of DPS is turned down in group content.

I expect the majority of the playerbase wont like this as DPS, but it may encourage a diversity of classes so more ppl play support across all lvl 70 plus dungeons.

The other factor would be lvl scaling caps on dungeons. Though need higher lvl alternative dungeons for the 3.5k speed farmers (better loot, higher difficulty).

armadeonx

To my mind it's worth investigating a combination of the following 2 points:

1. Remove lifesteal completely. It's a skill/trait that is logically supposed to only be available to warlocks (necromancers) anyway and has no place on any other class.

2. Remove 1 shot mechanics from dungeons except for 'red zone' attacks. A single ordinary attack should be limited to around 10% HP loss versus a standard DR figure (say 40%?).

I believe this would result in making healing effective as well as necessary. For solo content, DPS would need to run with a healing companion unless they can survive easily through DR and use Regen after the fight or pop a potion or two. Also with Lifesteal off the table, people would slot much more Defence anyway due to not placing Darks in defence slots.

It is completely weird that all classes can maintain full health without any kind of external healing. It not only invalidates healing classes, it also makes content far too simple.