Why remove it from 70? Just patch some skips and add more cc there like random spawn unkillable mob who push people from edges unless they react fast enough.
Let's remove more content because of "bots." That always works out well. That never ends up punishing everyone who doesn't use bots, and the botters never move on to bot something else. Screw the legit players!!!!
They are called 'Leveling Dungeons' for a reason. Rather than remove them, the more obvious approach would be to block players over Level 69 from entering them. Problem solved >:)
Despite your indicated snarkism, that blocks achievements and deed completion if you missed one. The old solution for missed achievements was being able to enter solo through a door, but dungeons no longer have a door, so that's out.
Anyway, many "anti-bot" or "anti-goldseller" measures are unduly hard on new players. Taking more stuff away is just plain bad.
There must be a better way than the current system. I read this title and instantly thought "yes, the amount of AD being generated in these surely exceeds invoking, extra salvage and every other 'thing' they have borked the past while".
I would prefer they return the door so you can go "walk in" if you want to solo it or even party up with a few friends to get some quick AD, but limit the queue to level ranges again. I don't run these often, I've played since Mod 1 and new players are not learning how to play their class when they are dragged along by a couple of 70's that steam roll the instance. This takes away from the excitement and adventure for new folks as well. My young son was excited when NW came to PS4, he wanted to play the game that dad plays and I enjoyed sitting and giving him some tips on what skills and feats to choose etc. He queued for cloak tower and was partied up with two similar level players. He really enjoyed it and was actually excited for the loot. A little later he queued again and was grouped with a couple of level 60+ players that blasted through and left him running behind. You could literally see how deflating it was. I don't think he's logged in since.
I am not in favor of them removing AD for running the content, but mixing new players with capped ones in what is supposed to be a fun and exciting part of the game is not working on many levels....bot argument aside (which I also have come to hate as the go-to scapegoat for Cryptic).
Post edited by cambo1682 on
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
What is tos? Temple of the spider?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
They need to ban the bots.... or add in aread where you are bot checked to proceed
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
Sorry but everything cryptic has done to try and fight the botters and gold sellers has seemed to only made them even worse.
They keep trying to cure symptoms without trying to cure the disease. Perfect example is the Wards. Every time they've made a change to Wards which ironically also makes them more and more impossible for the average player to get without buying zen, has only seemed to increase the amount of botters and gold sellers.
And the same goes for AD, we all need AD in this game, you cannot advance very far after level 70 without it. And every time they make any changes to AD it seems like gold seller spam just gets worse. Stop trying to fight the botters and gold seller by removing stuff from the game that makes life for the real players harder and just make it so people have less reasons to use bots and gold sellers.
And yes, I know that there will always be people using bots and gold sellers but I don't ever remember it being this bad back when I started.
I am going to say, NO and then ask why? Bots have existed in this game and will continue no matter what they "remove". I have 6 level 70's I run 2 dailies on them each from time to time. I have never been accused of being "in the way" or "demi-god like" in these dungeons. I have also been thanked many times by the lower levels for supporting them and recently, told by a level 20 in Cragmire, "You were an awesome guide." I tell them where to expect trouble, I help them understand the layout of the dungeons.
But for those of you want to pull AD, then let's get it done right the first and last time so there are no mistakes. Also every Monday I pick up 4500 AD in Arcane Reservoir, Red Wizards, Defending the Portal, etc.. These can be botted much easier, they can be done solo. But don't stop there. Salvage can be botted too, got to get rid of Salvage AD. Skirms, PvP, are also good sources of botting AD. Let's just pull out all the AD and put all the AD in a new lockbox? Come on who would not love that? The only source of AD to buy VIP or E - keys!
I want the original poster to wake up and smell the coffee here. If you build a shield, the botters just build a better spear. You build a mousetrap, the botter builds a better mouse. In fact, PWE builds the top of the line bots, just look at their game Jade Dynasty. What's that? Did you not know they invented Esper? Esper is PWE's bot they built into the game Jade Dynasty to bot the game. This should be setting off a red light and alarms about now. If you don't believe me, download and play Jade Dynasty, it is all part of the Arc package.
They might remove more stuff, but bots will be here until the game is not. Sorry
As it is now, if you are a low level player, you have to be pretty unlucky not to end up in a run without a level 70 to blow everything up for you.
Which a lot of those lowbie players actually resent, because they wanted to run the f'n dungeon, not trail along in the wake of a demigod.
@beckylunatic Resent? That's a strange way of saying freaking hate it. I can't count the number of times I've had new players ask in guild chat "WTF?" when doing a "leveling" dungeon, not realizing they got queued with a level 70.
They really should segregate out level 70's from the leveling dungeon queue. Give them a separate queue, as well as allowing a level 70 to form a private group with others of various ranges, in case a friend wants help.
But overall, leveling dungeons are a pretty crappy experience for new players.
But then again, that's just another thing to throw on Cryptic's pile.
It should be another checkbox in the queue. Maybe there are some special cupcakes that want to run the dungeon slow more than once but after the 100th time I really doubt they'll be unappreciative of a level 70 toon saving them some time.
I am going to say, NO and then ask why? Bots have existed in this game and will continue no matter what they "remove". I have 6 level 70's I run 2 dailies on them each from time to time. I have never been accused of being "in the way" or "demi-god like" in these dungeons. I have also been thanked many times by the lower levels for supporting them and recently, told by a level 20 in Cragmire, "You were an awesome guide." I tell them where to expect trouble, I help them understand the layout of the dungeons.
But for those of you want to pull AD, then let's get it done right the first and last time so there are no mistakes. Also every Monday I pick up 4500 AD in Arcane Reservoir, Red Wizards, Defending the Portal, etc.. These can be botted much easier, they can be done solo. But don't stop there. Salvage can be botted too, got to get rid of Salvage AD. Skirms, PvP, are also good sources of botting AD. Let's just pull out all the AD and put all the AD in a new lockbox? Come on who would not love that? The only source of AD to buy VIP or E - keys!
I want the original poster to wake up and smell the coffee here. If you build a shield, the botters just build a better spear. You build a mousetrap, the botter builds a better mouse. In fact, PWE builds the top of the line bots, just look at their game Jade Dynasty. What's that? Did you not know they invented Esper? Esper is PWE's bot they built into the game Jade Dynasty to bot the game. This should be setting off a red light and alarms about now. If you don't believe me, download and play Jade Dynasty, it is all part of the Arc package.
They might remove more stuff, but bots will be here until the game is not. Sorry
He's not talking about bots. He's talking about level 70 players that have 'no time to play' (heh), speed run those leveling dungeons and leaving behind leveling players, all tilted, angry and salty.
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tripsofthrymrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,624Community Moderator
They are called 'Leveling Dungeons' for a reason. Rather than remove them, the more obvious approach would be to block players over Level 69 from entering them. Problem solved >:)
I was thinking this very thing this evening. I ran FH just because I missed it (fond memories of when it was really, really hard). Only one of us was below level 70. I went at-wills only, but the other GWF didn't slow down...
They are called 'Leveling Dungeons' for a reason. Rather than remove them, the more obvious approach would be to block players over Level 69 from entering them. Problem solved >:)
I was thinking this very thing this evening. I ran FH just because I missed it (fond memories of when it was really, really hard). Only one of us was below level 70. I went at-wills only, but the other GWF didn't slow down...
This is why I stick by the slower one, Mr. Speedy can reach the end and wait for us. On occasion, I have found all 3 of us are level 70, at which point it is really silly. My "routine" in the dungeon is to first say hello. Seems like chat is just not present unless I start talking. Sometimes no one bothers to respond until the end with Thanks or thx.
As for leveling, those dungeons are not leveling the new players. They run them to loot and earn AD. The few I bump into ask about leveling in combat I explain to them that a guild can level much faster. If they want to join a guild, I invite them and show them how killing spiders in back of any Stronghold is 10 times faster than enduring a dungeon. Most XP is generated by the campaign quests over any dungeon. Personally I have always wondered why they changed them from 1-5 players to minimum of 3 players back on mod 6. If Cryptic was really stressed about it, they could place invisible walls in ToS to prevent the ninja acrobatics (jumping off cliffs) but they didn't and they won't. I have no issue with players who want to do that, as long as they understand, I am not leaving another team member behind to race for the goal.
He's not talking about bots. He's talking about level 70 players that have 'no time to play' (heh), speed run those leveling dungeons and leaving behind leveling players, all tilted, angry and salty.
Please review all postings. The title says he wanted to REMOVE dungeons, and in his posting states his reason to be the vast amount of AD made by players with more than 2 characters. If he is not talking about botting, then why does he say, "This can't be probably done by human hands unless Temple of Spider is the only thing you do in game to achieve this amounts, but I think Cryptic should be aware that this is happening."? Answer: They know, there isn't enough money in the budget for the Gateway, so now you want them to remove more stuff.
If you ask me the problem is that all content is static. Cryptic missed the chance to create varying dungeons and other areas. There is always the same layout, the same mobs, the same nodes. If they had varying dungeons, surprising mobs, different places for nodes it would be much harder for bots to run. The way it is now is the way that is easiest to automate. The made a very small attempt at "varying dungeons" with elol where you have to go through one of three doors, but still, everything static except this decision. There are may games with random dungeon creation. Take a peek, you might like it!
Imaginary Friends are the best friends you can have!
Just let lvl 70 players que solo for the dungeons and the rest can run it below lvl 70. This way lvl 70 players can farm AD, if they want and geared up somehow and bots wont run it, bc they wont bother to gear up, to do it solo or just with low lvl players.
He's not talking about bots. He's talking about level 70 players that have 'no time to play' (heh), speed run those leveling dungeons and leaving behind leveling players, all tilted, angry and salty.
Please review all postings. The title says he wanted to REMOVE dungeons, and in his posting states his reason to be the vast amount of AD made by players with more than 2 characters. If he is not talking about botting, then why does he say, "This can't be probably done by human hands unless Temple of Spider is the only thing you do in game to achieve this amounts, but I think Cryptic should be aware that this is happening."? Answer: They know, there isn't enough money in the budget for the Gateway, so now you want them to remove more stuff.
OP is probably mentioned both, level 70 players and botters. He said "even if you're instance is filled by characters that are not controled by human hands" There are people who run ToS for quick AD with 3 characters and exit game. Botters are still there to stay.
The Gateway is over and done with. We can't get them to bring it back as they commit to it no matter what.
Although I do agree with him previously on his second post (because Rank 5s from Seals), I still leaned over leveling dungeons to be the same as leveling skirmishes. Since ToS, Greywolf and CC have epic versions, why not do the same for CT, FH, Cavern and other leveling skirmishes (not sure who wants to run them but achievement chasers might)? Loot is still rubbish though but that discussion belongs to another thread, not here.
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santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
They should allow level 70 to queu for lowbie dungeons solo. I rarely run them, but you should have the chance to do them if you missed them during levelling. Besides, it's our only opportunity to see some of them since they removed the Epic versions.
I would also not amused to pull bots through a dungeon, never run those leveling dungeons anyway. Offtopic a bit but today I checked DOM matches and the player, who actually were located at Hotenow etc., 19 out of 20 player definitely looked like bots --> typical appearence: grey level 19 HAMSTER-equip on a lev 45 toon.... interesting, maybe <level 70 PVP should be deleted also? Next time I go domination with my low level hunter (invoking char) and will record my incredible skills vs those bugs äh bots, only have to L2P that class in advance.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
If they had a reason , to you know play new content, most people would.
I dont care if they remove it or not for lvl 70.. dont really care.
The issue here is that content isnt rewarding enough to run.. that poeple say screw it.. might as well do 30 runs of HAMSTER leveling dungeons, vs running 5-6 fbi or something.
The grinding and gating in mod 10.. has all but forced people to run away from it..
Im not a fan of people who use bots, regardless of type. I have 7 toons and i only play 2 actively, i run these dungeons when I can across my toons if im short of AD or have nothing better to do. Giving them the idea of removing AD from the easier content that penalised the standard player and worse new players.
Instead of constantly removing/nerfing stuff that bots exploit, they should instead spend some time brainstorming ways to prevent bots from exploiting. This is becoming a bigger issue the longer things are left to go on. PVP below lvl 60 is basically just bots bots and more bots.
Mini dungeons, instances and similar are being farmed by bots. Events that drop items e.g. waukeen, get mined by bots. I've evern seen bots farming HE's. It's everywhere, but removing the desirable content does not stop it, all it does it make them look for the next thing again and again.
When it comes to players abusing a bot, its usually not hard to notice. If a toon is constantly switching characters or staying logged in for hours and hours without break or pause in activity across spans of days, you KNOW thats someone using a bot. Yet strangely, nothing is done about it... except for removal of more rewards from standard content.
DPS Rogue | Heal/Buff Cleric
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tripsofthrymrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,624Community Moderator
They should allow level 70 to queu for lowbie dungeons solo. I rarely run them, but you should have the chance to do them if you missed them during levelling. Besides, it's our only opportunity to see some of them since they removed the Epic versions.
That's a good thought. Queue for 3-man when pre-70 or solo at 70. Toons that are leveling can get the full experience and leveled toons can still run them.
Even at level 70 the dungeons are easy. I soloed Karrundax in I think 11 minutes (for some reason, you can mount up in that dungeon...)
The real solution is to bring back solidly reworked epic versions (not repurposed like the new CN, just upgraded versions of the original for the modern power curve).
Maybe there are some special cupcakes that want to run the dungeon slow more than once but after the 100th time I really doubt they'll be unappreciative of a level 70 toon saving them some time.
The thing is, if you're running Cloak Tower (yes, I *know* ToS is faster, but lots of people run CT anyway), you're going to run into a high proportion of players doing their first dungeon ever. And pretty much ruin it for them because AD is more important than other people.
Not sure why I'm worrying about bad gaming experiences driving new players off at this point, but... meh.
One thing I'm starting to wonder is how many leveling chars are actually doing the group content, that is excluding banking alts and such. I waited hours yesterday in the queue for Bridge Battle skirmish and never got it. Ran all of the Chasm and most of Rothe valley and now it seems like my warlock is going to outlevel it.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
@pitshade As you may have read, I have 5 (alts) although I do tend to them all the same attention as my main. My most of my alts have no need to do Plague Tower, Chasm, Ebon Downs, Helm's Hold and Vellosk. They are all level 70 and got there without touching them, my main still hasn't finished Pirate Skyhold and never got a chance to hit some dungeons that never returned when they pulled out the dungeons in Mod 6. Some day I may take the time to blow them through, but that is all it will be is a walk in the park. Once in a while, have to stop in at Neverdeath graveyard and remind or alert new players to the fact about a 12 slot bag after you complete this area with the Clockwork Guild Tomb.
For new players just tuning in and reading this please take the time to follow the quest chains here on the wiki.
Comments
I would prefer they return the door so you can go "walk in" if you want to solo it or even party up with a few friends to get some quick AD, but limit the queue to level ranges again. I don't run these often, I've played since Mod 1 and new players are not learning how to play their class when they are dragged along by a couple of 70's that steam roll the instance. This takes away from the excitement and adventure for new folks as well. My young son was excited when NW came to PS4, he wanted to play the game that dad plays and I enjoyed sitting and giving him some tips on what skills and feats to choose etc. He queued for cloak tower and was partied up with two similar level players. He really enjoyed it and was actually excited for the loot. A little later he queued again and was grouped with a couple of level 60+ players that blasted through and left him running behind. You could literally see how deflating it was. I don't think he's logged in since.
I am not in favor of them removing AD for running the content, but mixing new players with capped ones in what is supposed to be a fun and exciting part of the game is not working on many levels....bot argument aside (which I also have come to hate as the go-to scapegoat for Cryptic).
They keep trying to cure symptoms without trying to cure the disease. Perfect example is the Wards. Every time they've made a change to Wards which ironically also makes them more and more impossible for the average player to get without buying zen, has only seemed to increase the amount of botters and gold sellers.
And the same goes for AD, we all need AD in this game, you cannot advance very far after level 70 without it. And every time they make any changes to AD it seems like gold seller spam just gets worse. Stop trying to fight the botters and gold seller by removing stuff from the game that makes life for the real players harder and just make it so people have less reasons to use bots and gold sellers.
And yes, I know that there will always be people using bots and gold sellers but I don't ever remember it being this bad back when I started.
But for those of you want to pull AD, then let's get it done right the first and last time so there are no mistakes. Also every Monday I pick up 4500 AD in Arcane Reservoir, Red Wizards, Defending the Portal, etc.. These can be botted much easier, they can be done solo. But don't stop there. Salvage can be botted too, got to get rid of Salvage AD. Skirms, PvP, are also good sources of botting AD. Let's just pull out all the AD and put all the AD in a new lockbox? Come on who would not love that? The only source of AD to buy VIP or E - keys!
I want the original poster to wake up and smell the coffee here. If you build a shield, the botters just build a better spear. You build a mousetrap, the botter builds a better mouse. In fact, PWE builds the top of the line bots, just look at their game Jade Dynasty. What's that? Did you not know they invented Esper? Esper is PWE's bot they built into the game Jade Dynasty to bot the game. This should be setting off a red light and alarms about now. If you don't believe me, download and play Jade Dynasty, it is all part of the Arc package.
They might remove more stuff, but bots will be here until the game is not. Sorry
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
As for leveling, those dungeons are not leveling the new players. They run them to loot and earn AD. The few I bump into ask about leveling in combat I explain to them that a guild can level much faster. If they want to join a guild, I invite them and show them how killing spiders in back of any Stronghold is 10 times faster than enduring a dungeon. Most XP is generated by the campaign quests over any dungeon. Personally I have always wondered why they changed them from 1-5 players to minimum of 3 players back on mod 6. If Cryptic was really stressed about it, they could place invisible walls in ToS to prevent the ninja acrobatics (jumping off cliffs) but they didn't and they won't. I have no issue with players who want to do that, as long as they understand, I am not leaving another team member behind to race for the goal. Please review all postings. The title says he wanted to REMOVE dungeons, and in his posting states his reason to be the vast amount of AD made by players with more than 2 characters. If he is not talking about botting, then why does he say, "This can't be probably done by human hands unless Temple of Spider is the only thing you do in game to achieve this amounts, but I think Cryptic should be aware that this is happening."? Answer: They know, there isn't enough money in the budget for the Gateway, so now you want them to remove more stuff.
Cryptic missed the chance to create varying dungeons and other areas. There is always the same layout, the same mobs, the same nodes.
If they had varying dungeons, surprising mobs, different places for nodes it would be much harder for bots to run.
The way it is now is the way that is easiest to automate.
The made a very small attempt at "varying dungeons" with elol where you have to go through one of three doors, but still, everything static except this decision. There are may games with random dungeon creation. Take a peek, you might like it!
The Gateway is over and done with. We can't get them to bring it back as they commit to it no matter what.
Although I do agree with him previously on his second post (because Rank 5s from Seals), I still leaned over leveling dungeons to be the same as leveling skirmishes. Since ToS, Greywolf and CC have epic versions, why not do the same for CT, FH, Cavern and other leveling skirmishes (not sure who wants to run them but achievement chasers might)? Loot is still rubbish though but that discussion belongs to another thread, not here.
Offtopic a bit but today I checked DOM matches and the player, who actually were located at Hotenow etc., 19 out of 20 player definitely looked like bots --> typical appearence: grey level 19 HAMSTER-equip on a lev 45 toon.... interesting, maybe <level 70 PVP should be deleted also?
Next time I go domination with my low level hunter (invoking char) and will record my incredible skills vs those bugs äh bots, only have to L2P that class in advance.
I dont care if they remove it or not for lvl 70.. dont really care.
The issue here is that content isnt rewarding enough to run.. that poeple say screw it.. might as well do 30 runs of HAMSTER leveling dungeons, vs running 5-6 fbi or something.
The grinding and gating in mod 10.. has all but forced people to run away from it..
Instead of constantly removing/nerfing stuff that bots exploit, they should instead spend some time brainstorming ways to prevent bots from exploiting. This is becoming a bigger issue the longer things are left to go on. PVP below lvl 60 is basically just bots bots and more bots.
Mini dungeons, instances and similar are being farmed by bots. Events that drop items e.g. waukeen, get mined by bots. I've evern seen bots farming HE's. It's everywhere, but removing the desirable content does not stop it, all it does it make them look for the next thing again and again.
When it comes to players abusing a bot, its usually not hard to notice. If a toon is constantly switching characters or staying logged in for hours and hours without break or pause in activity across spans of days, you KNOW thats someone using a bot. Yet strangely, nothing is done about it... except for removal of more rewards from standard content.
Even at level 70 the dungeons are easy. I soloed Karrundax in I think 11 minutes (for some reason, you can mount up in that dungeon...)
The real solution is to bring back solidly reworked epic versions (not repurposed like the new CN, just upgraded versions of the original for the modern power curve).
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
They put them to appease a certain target audience demanding some content..
but franly I wouldn't just as much not have them come back, then what they did. They just insult the senses , to what the old days were.
Running a frozen heart.. I remember the first time I kited all the adds with my GWF.. blah.. this game.
Not sure why I'm worrying about bad gaming experiences driving new players off at this point, but... meh.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Frankly we are doing them a service.. if they never get to 70, we saved them alot of hassle.
For new players just tuning in and reading this please take the time to follow the quest chains here on the wiki.
Why pull content or lock it out, just have fun.