I try and complete all the original leveling campaign on all my chars as they level up. I struggled soloing that stuff in Beta, improved my builds and tactics later and did much better and was quite proud of that. Sadly, I have so many account unlocks and the guild boons that this last character breezed through with no challenge. (and I freely admit to lacking the will to not use that stuff) I run the content because for me it's an important part of the game.
But the point from my earlier post is that apart from the AD farmers, it might take forever for at-level characters to get into those dungeons. To me the real issue comes down to the terrible scaling that allows higher levels to run ahead and ignore mobs.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
But the point from my earlier post is that apart from the AD farmers, it might take forever for at-level characters to get into those dungeons. To me the real issue comes down to the terrible scaling that allows higher levels to run ahead and ignore mobs.
That right there is the heart of it. The problem isn't the AD, or the dungeons, or anything else. The scaling sucks, it was better when the mobs scaled, rather then the players. What we have now is a mess. And its that mess that is creating the problems here and in other parts of the game, like CTA's and Events like Siege and the Protectors speech.
There was a time low level players were actually able to contribute, effectively, with high level players. Id rather see a return to that. Even if it means CT might take 15 minutes over 5, then the high level bullying we have now.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,452Arc User
But the point from my earlier post is that apart from the AD farmers, it might take forever for at-level characters to get into those dungeons. To me the real issue comes down to the terrible scaling that allows higher levels to run ahead and ignore mobs.
That right there is the heart of it. The problem isn't the AD, or the dungeons, or anything else. The scaling sucks, it was better when the mobs scaled, rather then the players. What we have now is a mess. And its that mess that is creating the problems here and in other parts of the game, like CTA's and Events like Siege and the Protectors speech.
There was a time low level players were actually able to contribute, effectively, with high level players. Id rather see a return to that. Even if it means CT might take 15 minutes over 5, then the high level bullying we have now.
It will be tricky to scale the mobs. Think about a party of 3 with level 10, level 30 and level 70.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
Not tricky at all, scaling mobs were used in Valindra's invasion onward until some point after I left in Mod 4. Instead of a fixed level next to its name there was a red skull icon. Damage dealt to the mob was presumably calculated into a percentage of its health. BIS geared players were still going to find it easy but that is to be expected. Healing didn't scale between players, which would have been an easy fix.
Very low level chars underperformed due to missing key class features and powers Poor GWF with no unstoppable and using reaping strike, CW with not enough encounters plus Ice Storm and Repel... This is going to unavoidable no matter how you go.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
I have 4 alts, 3 of which are level 70. They are level 70 because invocations did give more AD and now give more bonus AD. I run 2 dungeons a day for the AD and the Seals of the Adventurer. These characters are not some 3k+ powerhouses. In fact, most cannot kill enemies in a single hit in Cloak Tower, the lowest level dungeon in the game.
Why do I run this you may ask? Well, Cloak Tower takes about 10 minutes per run and I run it twice per character. I have 5 characters, which means it takes me about an hour and half each day. With a job, this is quite a chunk of time. Then, I'm expected to do dailies with at least one character, sometimes taking up to 2-3 more hours now (it used to take me 8+ hours for just dailies each day). It just is not feasible to do anything more extensive.
My main issue with this argument is that there are plenty of players that associate easy with bad. Why should a dungeon I currently can clear in 10 minutes be any longer or harder? Imagine in the case of job, if you were paid less, had to work longer for the same rate, or had to work harder (like doing another person's job), would you continue to work that job? I'm guessing not. This kind of thing is in almost every RPG (best way to gain money/exp/items/etc.). All the suggested changes will do is make these bot and level 70 players look for a replacement way of getting AD efficiently. If Cryptic and players are upset about having level 70 characters in these low-level dungeons, maybe there should be a better way to earn that same AD in less time. I say this because running these low-level dungeons can be very boring with 2 or more alts. The required amount of AD for some things in this game are astronomical and everyone needs AD to some degree to be efficient.
For me, changing this may will deter me from playing as much and I will probably just go hunt dragons until I get my platinum trophy and maybe only login for my daily enchanted key and invocations. I fear that next, someone is going to suggest nerfing VIP daily enchanted keys because it requires no effort for reward, despite players having to purchase VIP with ZEN. It is a very slippery slope with this game and I'm not exactly pleased with the mentality of some of the players and Cryptic to "balance" it. Maybe the focus should be on things that have been broken for some time, like I don't know, fixing epic dungeons and some of the game mechanics that have not been addressed.
Well then make the leveling dungeons do not give AD upon completion, only the epic and master ones, I think this would solve the problem same way as deleting it. They are used to run to farm AD by the botters and thus it results in spoiling the economy as it continuosly pump more and more AD into the game, same story happened with the SCA bot autosolving the advantures 1 mil AD by day gain for botters, same story was with all the AD that were put into leadership and abused by bots generating and even inflating prices. Leveling donjons are no different.
Wait...
Did someone actually suggest that no player under level 70, or with the ability to run epic and master dungeons needs (or should have) Astral Diamonds... That's kind of backwards isn't it?
Once a player reaches level 70 or has the kind of gear to enable them to run epic and master dungeons (not every level 70 has that kind of gear), seems to me those players don't even need AD's, they already have the gear necessary to allow them to run and survive those higher level dungeons.
The higher level the player and the better their gear is, the harder - not easier, they should have to work to obtain AD's... or at least that's my opinion.
And unless my memory fails me it used to be that a player had to be within so many levels of a dungeon to even be able to enter it, I know that because I didn't do Cloak Tower with one of my characters and by the time I got around to it - I couldn't get in because I was too high of a level.
I seriously think they should go back to something like that...
If it is a level 12 dungeon only characters from level 12- level 15/16 should be able to get in - period.
If someone has a level 70 character who has never done the Cloak Tower - let's just presume that at level 70 they will be able to do it (or even allow them the opportunity to do it once, just for the experience) but that's it... no level 70 characters grinding a level 12 dungeon.
Problem solved as far as I'm concerned.
As for the alleged "bot problem" (I have a hard time seeing how bots can do something like a dungeon) put in random and changeable switches that need to be manipulated along the way instead of just making it a straight shot from the front door to the boss.
One trip through a person has to answer a riddle, flip a switch, figure out a puzzle (randomly one of the three, two of the three or even all three before being allowed to progress) to get to the end. If a (bot) player cannot figure out what needs to be done for that particular run they can't get to the boss level.
There are already a couple of examples of this.
In the Clock Tower in Neverdeath there is a portal where a player must answer a riddle before being able to progress...
In another area there are people trapped in a cell and the player must manipulate three switches (or use a kit, which I thought was a mistake) to open the cell free the prisoners and get a couple of chests... a player can progress without opening the cell (another mistake IMO) but it gives an idea of the point I'm trying to make.
You are sharing Cryptics poor choice in fighting bots. Just by taking something away does not mean they will stop and they surely shouldn't screw over new players or players with little time that play these dungeons for their regular income.
If they removed these dungeons, next they need to remove all weeklies, next they need to remove all heroic encounters, next they need to remove pvp, next they need remove all T1 dungeons and then perhaps shut down the game because there is nothing to do anymore.
What is your actual problem with bots making AD? Is it affecting you in a negative way? In all honesty bots are the ones feeding us stacks of RP and enchantments for decent prizes. I am not saying it is right what they do but I can't see how it possibly affects us negatively apart from the gateway drama which is now in the past.
You are sharing Cryptics poor choice in fighting bots. Just by taking something away does not mean they will stop and they surely shouldn't screw over new players or players with little time that play these dungeons for their regular income.
If they removed these dungeons, next they need to remove all weeklies, next they need to remove all heroic encounters, next they need to remove pvp, next they need remove all T1 dungeons and then perhaps shut down the game because there is nothing to do anymore.
What is your actual problem with bots making AD? Is it affecting you in a negative way? In all honesty bots are the ones feeding us stacks of RP and enchantments for decent prizes. I am not saying it is right what they do but I can't see how it possibly affects us negatively apart from the gateway drama which is now in the past.
I can't agree more.
Svatá Prdelka game - Human/real life - ??? OP 18k+ Devotion/Justice - Light
And unless my memory fails me it used to be that a player had to be within so many levels of a dungeon to even be able to enter it, I know that because I didn't do Cloak Tower with one of my characters and by the time I got around to it - I couldn't get in because I was too high of a level.
I seriously think they should go back to something like that...
Actually, the way it was before mod 6 was that after you outleveled a dungeon, you couldn't use the queue to get back in. However you could still do the dungeon and get the achievement, you just had to physically go to the entrance and go in. You could get a group to go or do it solo if you wanted. However there were no AD rewards for completing any dungeon back then.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
And unless my memory fails me it used to be that a player had to be within so many levels of a dungeon to even be able to enter it, I know that because I didn't do Cloak Tower with one of my characters and by the time I got around to it - I couldn't get in because I was too high of a level.
I seriously think they should go back to something like that...
Actually, the way it was before mod 6 was that after you outleveled a dungeon, you couldn't use the queue to get back in. However you could still do the dungeon and get the achievement, you just had to physically go to the entrance and go in. You could get a group to go or do it solo if you wanted. However there were no AD rewards for completing any dungeon back then.
OK then, slight modification...
For a person who has outleveled a dungeon not being able to get in by queue but still able to get in by going through the door - remove the door (or queue system) access and only allow access to an area by one method - simple, easy fix.
(*I would still like to have higher level players able to go in with a group though, I can't even count the number of 'guided tours' I went on with friends and family who had lower level players through some of those dungeons, it gave me a real sense of helping others and to be honest even though I didn't get anything from those runs I could personally use, I enjoyed the heck out of it.)
And come to think of it, you were right about the no AD's for running those dungeons - but then back then there were also numerous other ways to make AD's and the majority of those methods are now gone.
But my point remains a level 70 character running a level 12 dungeon just to farm AD's?!?
Perhaps we should go back to characters being able to run those dungeons, but no AD reward at the end - or my preference would be a significant AD award for completing the dungeon (say 1,500-2,000 - it is a level 12 dungeon after all) but that award can only be claimed once, even if a person runs it multiple times.
Someone wants more AD's then they have to run a different dungeon but still then they only get the AD award one time after completing it.
Of course people can choose to purchase extra character slots and run numerous alts through those dungeons but that would encourage the sale of character slots (profit for Neverwinter) not to mention the gear and other items like bags and bank slots a player's new alt character may require (more potential profit for Neverwinter).
One thing I'm starting to wonder is how many leveling chars are actually doing the group content, that is excluding banking alts and such. I waited hours yesterday in the queue for Bridge Battle skirmish and never got it. Ran all of the Chasm and most of Rothe valley and now it seems like my warlock is going to outlevel it.
I do not think that many new low lvl characters are actually going through the content. Most of the ones that contact me about joining my guild Chaos United want access to a Stronghold so they can "speed level." It is a shame really, they are assuming the "end game" content is better than the lvl 1 thru 60 content and that is just not how it is. With the exception of the RA Salavator story line the original lvl 1 thru 60 content is just so much better than the end game stuff.
There are different players and different preferences for those players...
I've also had conversations with some players that have no desire to join a guild, even though they feel they will be forced to do so eventually to get anywhere in the game...
There are those who want to speed level as you say, but then there are those who want to do the content, take their time, look around and learn how to do things on their own with as little "help" as possible - at least in the beginning.
Also as you mentioned and I agree, it seems a shame that so many people seem to be so focused on the end game - even though there is no real 'end game' in most cases instead of enjoying the content and the experiences along the way...
But it is what it is and perhaps that so many are so intently focused on the destination rather than the journey to get there, is just a sign of the times we live - and play in.
Remove AD from leveling dungeons Remove AD from SCA skirmishes Remove AD from lvl 70 skirmishes Remove AD from Tier 1 Epic dungeons Remove AD from Tier 2 Epic dungeons Remove AD from CN Remove AD from salvaging gear Remove AD from pvp Remove AD from weekly missions Remove AD from FBI
Comments
But the point from my earlier post is that apart from the AD farmers, it might take forever for at-level characters to get into those dungeons. To me the real issue comes down to the terrible scaling that allows higher levels to run ahead and ignore mobs.
There was a time low level players were actually able to contribute, effectively, with high level players. Id rather see a return to that. Even if it means CT might take 15 minutes over 5, then the high level bullying we have now.
Very low level chars underperformed due to missing key class features and powers Poor GWF with no unstoppable and using reaping strike, CW with not enough encounters plus Ice Storm and Repel... This is going to unavoidable no matter how you go.
Why do I run this you may ask? Well, Cloak Tower takes about 10 minutes per run and I run it twice per character. I have 5 characters, which means it takes me about an hour and half each day. With a job, this is quite a chunk of time. Then, I'm expected to do dailies with at least one character, sometimes taking up to 2-3 more hours now (it used to take me 8+ hours for just dailies each day). It just is not feasible to do anything more extensive.
My main issue with this argument is that there are plenty of players that associate easy with bad. Why should a dungeon I currently can clear in 10 minutes be any longer or harder? Imagine in the case of job, if you were paid less, had to work longer for the same rate, or had to work harder (like doing another person's job), would you continue to work that job? I'm guessing not. This kind of thing is in almost every RPG (best way to gain money/exp/items/etc.). All the suggested changes will do is make these bot and level 70 players look for a replacement way of getting AD efficiently. If Cryptic and players are upset about having level 70 characters in these low-level dungeons, maybe there should be a better way to earn that same AD in less time. I say this because running these low-level dungeons can be very boring with 2 or more alts. The required amount of AD for some things in this game are astronomical and everyone needs AD to some degree to be efficient.
For me, changing this may will deter me from playing as much and I will probably just go hunt dragons until I get my platinum trophy and maybe only login for my daily enchanted key and invocations. I fear that next, someone is going to suggest nerfing VIP daily enchanted keys because it requires no effort for reward, despite players having to purchase VIP with ZEN. It is a very slippery slope with this game and I'm not exactly pleased with the mentality of some of the players and Cryptic to "balance" it. Maybe the focus should be on things that have been broken for some time, like I don't know, fixing epic dungeons and some of the game mechanics that have not been addressed.
Did someone actually suggest that no player under level 70, or with the ability to run epic and master dungeons needs (or should have) Astral Diamonds... That's kind of backwards isn't it?
Once a player reaches level 70 or has the kind of gear to enable them to run epic and master dungeons (not every level 70 has that kind of gear), seems to me those players don't even need AD's, they already have the gear necessary to allow them to run and survive those higher level dungeons.
The higher level the player and the better their gear is, the harder - not easier, they should have to work to obtain AD's... or at least that's my opinion.
And unless my memory fails me it used to be that a player had to be within so many levels of a dungeon to even be able to enter it, I know that because I didn't do Cloak Tower with one of my characters and by the time I got around to it - I couldn't get in because I was too high of a level.
I seriously think they should go back to something like that...
If it is a level 12 dungeon only characters from level 12- level 15/16 should be able to get in - period.
If someone has a level 70 character who has never done the Cloak Tower - let's just presume that at level 70 they will be able to do it (or even allow them the opportunity to do it once, just for the experience) but that's it... no level 70 characters grinding a level 12 dungeon.
Problem solved as far as I'm concerned.
As for the alleged "bot problem" (I have a hard time seeing how bots can do something like a dungeon) put in random and changeable switches that need to be manipulated along the way instead of just making it a straight shot from the front door to the boss.
One trip through a person has to answer a riddle, flip a switch, figure out a puzzle (randomly one of the three, two of the three or even all three before being allowed to progress) to get to the end. If a (bot) player cannot figure out what needs to be done for that particular run they can't get to the boss level.
There are already a couple of examples of this.
In the Clock Tower in Neverdeath there is a portal where a player must answer a riddle before being able to progress...
In another area there are people trapped in a cell and the player must manipulate three switches (or use a kit, which I thought was a mistake) to open the cell free the prisoners and get a couple of chests... a player can progress without opening the cell (another mistake IMO) but it gives an idea of the point I'm trying to make.
If they removed these dungeons, next they need to remove all weeklies, next they need to remove all heroic encounters, next they need to remove pvp, next they need remove all T1 dungeons and then perhaps shut down the game because there is nothing to do anymore.
What is your actual problem with bots making AD? Is it affecting you in a negative way? In all honesty bots are the ones feeding us stacks of RP and enchantments for decent prizes. I am not saying it is right what they do but I can't see how it possibly affects us negatively apart from the gateway drama which is now in the past.
game - Human/real life - ???
OP 18k+ Devotion/Justice - Light
For a person who has outleveled a dungeon not being able to get in by queue but still able to get in by going through the door - remove the door (or queue system) access and only allow access to an area by one method - simple, easy fix.
(*I would still like to have higher level players able to go in with a group though, I can't even count the number of 'guided tours' I went on with friends and family who had lower level players through some of those dungeons, it gave me a real sense of helping others and to be honest even though I didn't get anything from those runs I could personally use, I enjoyed the heck out of it.)
And come to think of it, you were right about the no AD's for running those dungeons - but then back then there were also numerous other ways to make AD's and the majority of those methods are now gone.
But my point remains a level 70 character running a level 12 dungeon just to farm AD's?!?
Perhaps we should go back to characters being able to run those dungeons, but no AD reward at the end - or my preference would be a significant AD award for completing the dungeon (say 1,500-2,000 - it is a level 12 dungeon after all) but that award can only be claimed once, even if a person runs it multiple times.
Someone wants more AD's then they have to run a different dungeon but still then they only get the AD award one time after completing it.
Of course people can choose to purchase extra character slots and run numerous alts through those dungeons but that would encourage the sale of character slots (profit for Neverwinter) not to mention the gear and other items like bags and bank slots a player's new alt character may require (more potential profit for Neverwinter). There are different players and different preferences for those players...
I've also had conversations with some players that have no desire to join a guild, even though they feel they will be forced to do so eventually to get anywhere in the game...
There are those who want to speed level as you say, but then there are those who want to do the content, take their time, look around and learn how to do things on their own with as little "help" as possible - at least in the beginning.
Also as you mentioned and I agree, it seems a shame that so many people seem to be so focused on the end game - even though there is no real 'end game' in most cases instead of enjoying the content and the experiences along the way...
But it is what it is and perhaps that so many are so intently focused on the destination rather than the journey to get there, is just a sign of the times we live - and play in.
Remove AD from leveling dungeons
Remove AD from SCA skirmishes
Remove AD from lvl 70 skirmishes
Remove AD from Tier 1 Epic dungeons
Remove AD from Tier 2 Epic dungeons
Remove AD from CN
Remove AD from salvaging gear
Remove AD from pvp
Remove AD from weekly missions
Remove AD from FBI
/sarcasm
— (The unwritten rule)