How was this ever a "bug"? It would be a bug if they didn't have the option to Decline and you found a way to not accept it. But having a dialogue box with both Accept and Decline option and clicking Decline is not a bug. If it wasn't their intention to give that option that's one thing but having a feature that works as designed is not a bug.
According to Cryptic: We are pleased to address this bug because it resolves an inequity between the minority of players who knew about it and the majority who did not, and because the Neverwinter design team will be better able to design rewards for chests going forward now that the bug has been fixed.
Just wondering how big this "majority" who were "unaware" is.
Unfortunately, thread merge makes this poll not-a-poll.
I have seen exactly two undeniably sincere posts (1 here and 1 on Reddit) by players who have said they did not know they could keep their key for another try... not necessarily that they couldn't decline (because "decline" button), but that the chest would re-roll.
I think we can infer that "the minority" of players who were aware of this featurebug feature, are apparently the same minority who actually trouble themselves to communicate about the game using such resources as forums and other media. That darned informed elitist minority whose opinions they are routinely told are not actually reflective of the majority of players who never bother to try to have a voice at all.
He's a really great guy and had absolutely nothing to do with this change! He's the Andy equivalent for the International (non english) Community. He's not a developer and definitely didn't suggest this or do anything but get told by whoever did decide to make this change that an announcement had to be made.
I don't know which Cryptic Devs came up with this concept but let's not kill the poor messenger.
Who cares really. He works for the company so he's as good a target as anybody. That's how it works. What do you expect players to do when they don't have a chance to sit down with the actual person who made the decision?
He's part of the system, he's responsible. This also includes community mods by the way. You're tolerating the change by moderating the change.
lets also talk about this....... we'll be using 2-3x as many keys and they think -50zen will placate us? rofl! cut the cost by 2/3 (100 zen for 5 keys) and you MIGHT .... MIGHT keep some of your playerbase but I doubt it!
Yea, though I walk through the Valley of the Shadow of Death, I shall fear no evil for *I* am the meanest entity in the Valley!
From the developer's perspective though, if you use just one key over and over and over, you avoid questing and earning the materials to create a key. Not all developers are money grubbers; some want you to play the content they've created.
you do realize the programers that wrote those campaign zones are long gone from cryptic right?
You do realize that my statement was a general statement and not specific to the programmers who worked on that content right?
I know I'm fighting a losing battle trying to maintain some level of neutrality in this discussion but your response (and my response above to yours) aren't contributing to it. I don't feel that fixing this "bug" is a big deal; it won't affect me at all. But to some, it is a big deal. I'm not here bashing Cryptic or dismissing the many people upset with this proposed change. Instead, I'm reading the responses and trying to understand why and hopefully offer some potential solutions/compromises. You know, that whole constructive criticism thing. Whether or not this gets read by Cryptic....who knows?
I have to agree that claiming the dialogue box allowing us to decline chest contents was a bug is hard to believe. Very, very hard to believe, even if I wanted to believe it.
This change seems completely unnecessary and likely to be very damaging to the game. The token reduction in costs for store-bought keys does very little to make it better. Based on how the RNG works in this game now, I see no reason to believe that the contents of every chest (or even on average) will be worth taking. The game is basically a casino where the house always wins and that approach will not change. It's just being rubbed in our faces even more obviously now.
The way the chests work in FBI was a major reason I decided not to bother running my characters in that content. Now you are going to do something very similar to the rest of the game, where does that leave me and others like me? The chance of getting good loot is a major incentive for grinding the very small amount of end-game content this game has, and your solution is to make us pay for that? It seems like you are failing to understand the psychology of your customers at a very basic level, and I say this as someone who has spent money on the game in the past when I believed I was getting fair value for it.
Such a basic change to the game should really be supported with a detailed explanation of how chest drops will be improved (in concrete terms) and what if any changes will be made to other methods for acquiring keys (AD bazaar, campaign tasks) etc. The fact that so little effort was devoted to cushioning the blow and trying to make it up to us in other ways speaks volumes.
It really just seems like one thing after another with Cryptic. The Mod 6 rebalancing fiasco, no more coal wards for trade bars, closing the gateway; the list just goes on and on. All of these changes have taken a toll, and player complaints just seem to fall upon deaf ears no matter how reasonably expressed or how workable the alternatives presented are.
You really need to devote some time to doing something substantial to improve community goodwill, rather than taking the approach that you can do anything you like and be carried by the core of people who spend money no matter what. Even with a small group of heavy spenders supporting the game, server populations can still decrease to the point where even they don't have enough people left to play with.
Think about it before you continue wrecking this thing we like.
Thanks.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
According to Cryptic: We are pleased to address this bug because it resolves an inequity between the minority of players who knew about it and the majority who did not, and because the Neverwinter design team will be better able to design rewards for chests going forward now that the bug has been fixed.
Just wondering how big this "majority" who were "unaware" is.
Unfortunately, thread merge makes this poll not-a-poll.
I have seen exactly two undeniably sincere posts (1 here and 1 on Reddit) by players who have said they did not know they could keep their key for another try... not necessarily that they couldn't decline (because "decline" button), but that the chest would re-roll.
I think we can infer that "the minority" of players who were aware of this featurebug feature, are apparently the same minority who actually trouble themselves to communicate about the game using such resources as forums and other media. That darned informed elitist minority whose opinions they are routinely told are not actually reflective of the majority of players who never bother to try to have a voice at all.
No disagreements here Becky. Seriously.
I promise that we will be less strict as time goes on. Right now everybody is coming to voice their completely understandable frustration and disappointment at this decision.
We would love to keep a thread like that open, but let's things calm down a bit first. This thread very clearly shows the overwhelming opinion of the change. Any thread such as the survey which was merged in here would be awesome, IMO, but let's let calmer heads prevail first.
I am sorry but any other thread which discusses this change would only become a duplicate thread for these emotional, yet 100% valid, complaints. Let's wait for a little bit.
I understand the players' frustration. This "bug" or oversight has been in the game for so long, it feels like an intended feature.
From the developer's perspective though, if you use just one key over and over and over, you avoid questing and earning the materials to create a key. Not all developers are money grubbers; some want you to play the content they've created. If you don't want to earn that key through daily quests, you can purchase multiple from the zen store for less than a starbucks coffee.
I have 11 characters, 3 of which I play frequently. Those 3 characters create keys, run dungeons, and loot both chests. I don't mind spending a key on HAMSTER; I've accepted it as part of the game (RNG). All of the HAMSTER I don't need is sent to my other characters to salvage/hoard.
I'd be interested in hearing the design decision for having such a long timer to create a campaign key. The number of keys players can create is already limited by the amount of campaign currency they have. Why put a massive timer on it? That decision probably needs to be revisited.
Some suggestions/solutions: • Reduce the time and/or materials required to make a campaign key • Create daily campaign quests that reward you with a key for that campaign • Create a weekly quest that rewards you with a legendary dragon key • Allow keys to be made in bulk • Improve the rewards from the campaign key specific chests in dungeons • Consolidate campaign currency or create a system for converting one to another • Bring back boss specific loot that isn't looted from a chest
Have a nice day. Or don't. Your choice.
I agree with some of the things said here. I can understand not being able to reuse a key over and over again, but as you've said it's simply too difficult to get a key as it is. If they're going to implement this change to keys (which is mostly affecting Legendary Dragon Keys), then my suggestion would be to make it where Legendary Dragon Keys give a bonus to the drop % chance of items since they are bought. They then need to turn around and rework the key system to be a lot easier to obtain keys. Some of us run 5+ dungeons a night and we find that enjoyable although still expensive because you have 5,000 AD drained per run due to the epic chest but if none of us can open the special chest anymore without spending a fortune then we won't continue spamming dungeons and that's going to make the game super boring and people will quit.
Thank you! I appreciate the thought out and civil response. I agree, the Legendary Dragon Keys should have a higher chance of giving you better loot. If we're talking specifically rings, the +1 and +2 rings shouldn't be part of the key's "loot table". The bare minimum should be a +3. Give players a reason to purchase those keys.
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tripsofthrymrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,624Community Moderator
lets also talk about this....... we'll be using 2-3x as many keys and they think -50zen will placate us? rofl! cut the cost by 2/3 (100 zen for 5 keys) and you MIGHT .... MIGHT keep some of your playerbase but I doubt it!
They can reduce the cost of all keys to make current rewards, well, feel rewarding and/or increase the average loot to make this change work. I agree that just marginally cutting the cost of Zen keys is inadequate.
The developers do read the forums. Here's to hoping they take some of this player feedback into account before Mod 10.5 ships.
Finally it got fixed. I spent so much of my time to prove that all along it was a bug, and after 10 modules i see the bug being fixed. Now i want to ask you why aren't all the players getting banned from pc, xbox and ps4 for exploiting this ? Do not tell me that this isnt ban worthy ? Since its clearly an advantage that all players gained from it. I refuse, like literarlly refuse to play anymore in a game that is full of bots and exploiters, its really disgusting to play with all these exploiters, i have always played legit, i always bought zen and bought the pack and recived 1/4 from the investment, because this was intended design, but lookin at it now i feel robbed, so explain to me why arent these players that are more or less 50% of your playerbase getting banned ?
So while i was spending 150.000 ad and got barerly 30.000 ad in return there was someone else that wasnt even spending this ammount and he was winning legendary rings, artifacts and belts... I call it the biggest exploit ever , and i do expect that 50% of playerbase to get banned over it, or else you guys are not repecting the ToS and you should be fired for not doing your job.
I cannot belive that there are players that exploited the game for 10modules by DECLINING the chest and the key never got consumed, this is outrageous...
I give you props for fixing it even if its too late, but not dealing with your community and ban them, it's just not acceptable.
I really hope you are joking, if not, care to explain how this is an exploit. Actually if you arent, you are just a HAMSTER idiot.
it's clearly laced with sarcasm, so...
Fair enough, ill redact my mean comment then , we are all a wee bit upset, my apologies
no need to apologise, we are all on the same HAMSTER end of the stick here.
I agree, the Legendary Dragon Keys should have a higher chance of giving you better loot. If we're talking specifically rings, the +1 and +2 rings shouldn't be part of the key's "loot table". The bare minimum should be a +3. Give players a reason to purchase those keys.
Minimum of epic ring when using a paid or severely time-gated key was something I mentioned on Reddit. It might still be a ring that you have no use for, but with dramatically increased odds, it would feel less like getting repeatedly punched in the face.
Less like paying someone to repeatedly punch you in the face....
You really, really think you can sell this as a bug to the players? We are not 4 year olds.. it's really insulting.
I am not familiar with the Neverwinter code base but this could very well be a bug. It is possible it wasn't even noticed until recently. It happens. It's unfortunate because many people used that decline button.
So is this supposed to be an official statement? Because people usually don't read forums. Perhaps you should've written this in the preview forum only, where many other big changes that are coming end up.
And let us not kid ourselves. Even if they up the prizes we get from the chests we all know it will be from .1% to .2%.
@metalldjt I know you were being sarcastic, but at this point I would rather have them ban the "minority" (as they are stating) for exploiting this, so they can see how many players they have left in the game.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Who cares really. He works for the company so he's as good a target as anybody. That's how it works. What do you expect players to do when they don't have a chance to sit down with the actual person who made the decision?
He's part of the system, he's responsible. This also includes community mods by the way. You're tolerating the change by moderating the change.
Oh? Moderating? Well in certain regards, yes.
However the actual moderating as in using authority to throw stuff around? No not really.
The moderating in this thread has consisted of merging a few threads about the change in General Discussions into this thread, removing some posts which only said "......," removing one specific GIF that is inconsiderate of those who died in a tragedy and a removing a suggestion that would get people's accounts banned.
This thread is very much exactly what was said. It's not untouched but by in large you guys have been great in saying how you feel in a harsh but civil way.
So is this supposed to be an official statement? Because people usually don't read forums. Perhaps you should've written this in the preview forum only, where many other big changes that are coming end up.
Feedback duly noted and completely understandable. We'll pass it along to Strumslinger and the developers.
I understand the players' frustration. This "bug" or oversight has been in the game for so long, it feels like an intended feature.
From the developer's perspective though, if you use just one key over and over and over, you avoid questing and earning the materials to create a key. Not all developers are money grubbers; some want you to play the content they've created. If you don't want to earn that key through daily quests, you can purchase multiple from the zen store for less than a starbucks coffee.
I have 11 characters, 3 of which I play frequently. Those 3 characters create keys, run dungeons, and loot both chests. I don't mind spending a key on HAMSTER; I've accepted it as part of the game (RNG). All of the HAMSTER I don't need is sent to my other characters to salvage/hoard.
I'd be interested in hearing the design decision for having such a long timer to create a campaign key. The number of keys players can create is already limited by the amount of campaign currency they have. Why put a massive timer on it? That decision probably needs to be revisited.
Some suggestions/solutions: • Reduce the time and/or materials required to make a campaign key • Create daily campaign quests that reward you with a key for that campaign • Create a weekly quest that rewards you with a legendary dragon key • Allow keys to be made in bulk • Improve the rewards from the campaign key specific chests in dungeons • Consolidate campaign currency or create a system for converting one to another • Bring back boss specific loot that isn't looted from a chest
Have a nice day. Or don't. Your choice.
This is the kind of comment I might have understood when they are honest about making a change. But it misses the fact that there is no way they should get away with calling a feature a bug. All the suggestions above are fine btw if cryptic was to make such a change - but seriously - THIS IS AN INTENDED FEATURE. Why else allow "decline"? In fact I always thought it was a bug that you used up your gauntlets on the chests in dread ring whether you liked it or not ...
I am not familiar with Neverwinter's code base so I cannot determine whether or not this is truly a bug. Perhaps the community manager used the wrong word or maybe there is a line of code that is supposed to hide the decline button but due to multiple design decisions over the years, multiple programmers making changes, and multiple people saying "just get it done" the poor programmer inherited spaghetti code and had to quickly implement code without unit testing and without considering potential issues and after the code was implemented it had an unintended side effect.
bhahaha this is communication at its finest. You are really going to try and sell this as a bug...
you are also implying that the devs have been reducing chest rewards in game due to a bug? Thereby fixing the bug will lead to what...better rewards. Just bad communication and decisions all around
Comments
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
Tornado Of Souls
Should I use my oppressor built CW to help with controlling the trash mobs????
ROFL
I have seen exactly two undeniably sincere posts (1 here and 1 on Reddit) by players who have said they did not know they could keep their key for another try... not necessarily that they couldn't decline (because "decline" button), but that the chest would re-roll.
I think we can infer that "the minority" of players who were aware of this
featurebugfeature, are apparently the same minority who actually trouble themselves to communicate about the game using such resources as forums and other media. That darned informed elitist minority whose opinions they are routinely told are not actually reflective of the majority of players who never bother to try to have a voice at all.Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Who cares really. He works for the company so he's as good a target as anybody. That's how it works. What do you expect players to do when they don't have a chance to sit down with the actual person who made the decision?
He's part of the system, he's responsible. This also includes community mods by the way. You're tolerating the change by moderating the change.
I know I'm fighting a losing battle trying to maintain some level of neutrality in this discussion but your response (and my response above to yours) aren't contributing to it. I don't feel that fixing this "bug" is a big deal; it won't affect me at all. But to some, it is a big deal. I'm not here bashing Cryptic or dismissing the many people upset with this proposed change. Instead, I'm reading the responses and trying to understand why and hopefully offer some potential solutions/compromises. You know, that whole constructive criticism thing. Whether or not this gets read by Cryptic....who knows?
This change seems completely unnecessary and likely to be very damaging to the game. The token reduction in costs for store-bought keys does very little to make it better. Based on how the RNG works in this game now, I see no reason to believe that the contents of every chest (or even on average) will be worth taking. The game is basically a casino where the house always wins and that approach will not change. It's just being rubbed in our faces even more obviously now.
The way the chests work in FBI was a major reason I decided not to bother running my characters in that content. Now you are going to do something very similar to the rest of the game, where does that leave me and others like me? The chance of getting good loot is a major incentive for grinding the very small amount of end-game content this game has, and your solution is to make us pay for that? It seems like you are failing to understand the psychology of your customers at a very basic level, and I say this as someone who has spent money on the game in the past when I believed I was getting fair value for it.
Such a basic change to the game should really be supported with a detailed explanation of how chest drops will be improved (in concrete terms) and what if any changes will be made to other methods for acquiring keys (AD bazaar, campaign tasks) etc. The fact that so little effort was devoted to cushioning the blow and trying to make it up to us in other ways speaks volumes.
It really just seems like one thing after another with Cryptic. The Mod 6 rebalancing fiasco, no more coal wards for trade bars, closing the gateway; the list just goes on and on. All of these changes have taken a toll, and player complaints just seem to fall upon deaf ears no matter how reasonably expressed or how workable the alternatives presented are.
You really need to devote some time to doing something substantial to improve community goodwill, rather than taking the approach that you can do anything you like and be carried by the core of people who spend money no matter what. Even with a small group of heavy spenders supporting the game, server populations can still decrease to the point where even they don't have enough people left to play with.
Think about it before you continue wrecking this thing we like.
Thanks.
I promise that we will be less strict as time goes on. Right now everybody is coming to voice their completely understandable frustration and disappointment at this decision.
We would love to keep a thread like that open, but let's things calm down a bit first. This thread very clearly shows the overwhelming opinion of the change. Any thread such as the survey which was merged in here would be awesome, IMO, but let's let calmer heads prevail first.
I am sorry but any other thread which discusses this change would only become a duplicate thread for these emotional, yet 100% valid, complaints. Let's wait for a little bit.
The developers do read the forums. Here's to hoping they take some of this player feedback into account before Mod 10.5 ships.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
Less like paying someone to repeatedly punch you in the face....
Jeez.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
And let us not kid ourselves. Even if they up the prizes we get from the chests we all know it will be from .1% to .2%.
@metalldjt I know you were being sarcastic, but at this point I would rather have them ban the "minority" (as they are stating) for exploiting this, so they can see how many players they have left in the game.
However the actual moderating as in using authority to throw stuff around? No not really.
The moderating in this thread has consisted of merging a few threads about the change in General Discussions into this thread, removing some posts which only said "......," removing one specific GIF that is inconsiderate of those who died in a tragedy and a removing a suggestion that would get people's accounts banned.
This thread is very much exactly what was said. It's not untouched but by in large you guys have been great in saying how you feel in a harsh but civil way.
you are also implying that the devs have been reducing chest rewards in game due to a bug? Thereby fixing the bug will lead to what...better rewards. Just bad communication and decisions all around
I guess all the staff fighting bots on the gateway went to this huh...