Agreed - just make the whole thing read-only. SCA would become pointless, but nevertheless - a read only gateway wouldn't be excessively botted, nor would it pose performance problems.
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
I'd rather not see them waste time and effort putting out a crippled version of the Gateway. There's more than enough game and content issues for them to work on, and I want to see improvement there.
How about making it a paid app for mobile (iOS and Android)? If you really want to keep it more under control, allow only VIP users to use it.
The gateway is one of the major reasons I stuck with the game, because I don't have much free time behind a computer, but I do have a lot of the time out of the house to play SCA, shop at the AH, and browse the Zen store on my iPad.
I would be very open to paying $5 for an app so I can do a little Neverwinter while waiting in line or sitting on the the train.
I'd rather not see them waste time and effort putting out a crippled version of the Gateway. There's more than enough game and content issues for them to work on, and I want to see improvement there.
They proved before they can disable certain aspects, and it isn't like would have to build anything. Just get in the code, turn off the AH, Zax, Professions and bam, useful tool.
Not going to rehash the entire threads dedicated to the gateway, but in a time when other games are releasing gateway-style apps, its a shame to remove it.
Hopefully we will see all these freed up resources add some QOL enhancements to the client.
You're kinda missing the point, console-players have asked for a way to get the companion-only items for a very long time, and had the developers bothered to do something about that, they could simply have switched PC over to that.
Maybe this WAS the move to make it available to all.
@panderus I wish we we're able to build our own web tools to VIEW data. If your team was to provide the information required to read the data, I can assure you the community would come up with what we want! This would require very little Dev time in the long run and assist your community. The same could be offered to consoles for those who wanted to put in the time to develop their companion app!
The foundry sucks and should never ever be put in any meaningful way in relation with endgame at all. I'd rather get nothing at all instead of enduring someone's verbal diarrhea for 20 minutes. Most foundry authors forget this is an action game and not a "how long can i make this" simulator.
You are of course entitled to your opinion, and yes there is quite a bit of junk (and abuse) in the Foundry. There is also a whole lot of exceptional content. It's hard to find and PWE never developed an adequate system to let the good stuff rise o the top.
Some amazing stories are told in the Foundry even with the limitations of the authoring environment.
They don't want "amazing stories" it's an "action" game -- all they want is "insert sword here for phat loot raining from the sky."
Absolutely. There are many ways to tell a story, text is the least convenient and interesting one in a game. Videos and cutscenes come right next in the boring category. You can also tell a story through the environment/art, with the props you're using, or with the game mechanics you're requiring for your content. This is how you make "amazing stories" that fit in an "action game". It's clearly possible to tell a fantastic story using less than 200 words in the foundry!
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
They proved before they can disable certain aspects, and it isn't like would have to build anything. Just get in the code, turn off the AH, Zax, Professions and bam, useful tool.
Useful? What's left?
Looking at inventory on alts or reading mail? I hardly call that a "must have" feature worthy of continued support, or even the effort to dig into the code and make it work, as well as ensuring that these features are indeed "off" and inaccessible to botters and exploiters.
I agree there should be a read-only version. I'll admit I'm no expert, but I don't think that it's too time-consuming to disable the harmful functions on the server side. The environment is already there and coded. Just let node.js return a generic error message and let's go. In a second step you could entirely remove the functions from the front-end, but that's not even necessary.
That shouldn't take too much dev resources, at least not so much that they can't take care of other issues. You're probably talking 3-4 hours here. Then again their mentioned "resources" do not only include dev time. It's hardware and technical maintenance as well. That might actually be the biggest culprit. The Gateway software itself hasn't visibly been updated since its introduction anyway, so they can't really save devs by shutting it down.
I also agree modern games need fancy HAMSTERS like the Gateway. This MMO always has been pretty standard. Now minus foundry and minus Gateway the two more innovative features are gone. It's not getting easier on a very competitive market in which "dailies" do not separate you from the competition.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Well, that's part of the bigger discussion (and more relevant) I think. There's a few design decisions here that have driven the "botting" mentality on the Gateway. The fact that so many people saw the Gateway as integral to their in-game experience speaks volumes about how these aspects have negatively impacted the player.
For example: Professions. The RoI, for the most part, is so freaking low that they're simple not worth doing for your average player. However, if you were capable of running dozens or hundreds of "low ROI" tasks across multiple characters with multiple profession slots, you could eek out a sustainable return on that time. However, it required you to either be a massively talented "clicker" with infinite amounts of patience, or find ways to automate it. The Gateway necessitated both. But in my opinion, both options are symptoms of a the larger problem of Professions, for the most part, being a waste of time at worse, and not adding much to the game experience at best.
Second, and the big one is the Refinement system. There's no joy in refinement. Collecting, farming or buying RP points is one of the dullest, least inspired and quite frankly, soul-crushing experiences in this game. And even when you do manage to scrap together enough RP to "upgrade" something, that upgrade comes with an extremely high chance of failure, unless of course you grind even more of your soul away for wards. Again, there's just no joy there. Not only is it not fun and feels unrewarding, it's an enormous catalyst for botting and automated gameplay.
And so honestly that's the big lesson I'd love the developers to take away from the Gatewaygate scandal. If you're seeing large sections of the game being automated or "botted", it's a clear indication that part of the game is either the cause of or a symptom of an existing system that creates more headache and misery for players, instead of joy.
I'm willing to let the Gateway go, if you're willing to bring back the joy.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
I guess the people have spoken there is no zen on zax
There's a backlog. This is no different than it had been. As long as people are willing to pay 500AD per Zen, there will *never* be any Zen just sitting around languishing waiting for a buyer.
Even with a read-only version, people with nefarious intent could do things to stress the system. With the API open (even Read Only), hitting the database with searches could put a drag on the system. "Well, limit the searches per person" you say. Ok, then the crumb bums who are doing it come in *just* under the limit, but with thousands of accts. Same issue.
And for what? The ONLY things I can think of using a Read Only DB for are to 1) track the ZAX and sales on the AH, and to see if your tasks are done yet. Both of those give no RoI to Neverwinter, and in the case of the former, could actually create more problems for the economy (day traders, automating when to buy low/sell high).
Just to be constructive, can anyone provide an example of what a RO Gateway would be good for, specifically?
Just to be constructive, can anyone provide an example of what a RO Gateway would be good for, specifically?
I have 9 avatars, one of them has the stack of 90 pres wards. Using the gateway I find the items within 30 seconds. Using the game it takes 5 minutes.
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tripsofthrymrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,624Community Moderator
The gateway keeps players - legitimate players - engaged with the company and the game when they can't sit down in front of the computer and play using the game client. That's the #1 reason I would invest time in maintaining the gateway even though its inventor is no longer with the company (likely an important aspect of the decision to close it).
Engagement with the game equates to loyalty, a reduction of churn and increased spending.
(This is based on years of professional experience measuring customer loyalty).
And even when you do manage to scrap together enough RP to "upgrade" something, that upgrade comes with an extremely high chance of failure, unless of course you grind even more of your soul away for wards.
That's the point where they would legitimately say "you can pay a few dollars and buy the wards." The game is setup so you can grind and/or pay in the ratio that makes sense to you personally.
I do agree with your sentiment that the content is too focused on grinding and lost its focus on epic battles with potentially significant rewards. Some of my best memories of the game are running the initial dungeons to complete gear sets (both my own, and helping guildies) and especially running things like Spellplauge Caverns for the chance at a key split drop. Fun times, indeed.
The worst of the grind for me was EE. Subsequent modules move in the right direction but have yet to reclaim the thrill of the early game for me.
Just to be constructive, can anyone provide an example of what a RO Gateway would be good for, specifically?
I have 9 avatars, one of them has the stack of 90 pres wards. Using the gateway I find the items within 30 seconds. Using the game it takes 5 minutes.
So, that would save time.
This is also not something you do on a daily basis (losing a stack of something). I agree it would save you time, but is it worth maintaining a ReadOnly web portal for?
The gateway keeps players - legitimate players - engaged with the company and the game when they can't sit down in front of the computer and play using the game client. That's the #1 reason I would invest time in maintaining the gateway even though its inventor is no longer with the company (likely an important aspect of the decision to close it).
Engagement with the game equates to loyalty, a reduction of churn and increased spending.
(This is based on years of professional experience measuring customer loyalty).
I understand your comment, but would that 'engagement' still remain if it were Read Only?
The Gateway and SCA were a means to get people thinking about and engaged with the game when they weren't able to be on the game. Most businesses would love such a feature. Penny Arcade even joked about it regarding WoW and their TCG having been so great and evil an idea as having come from the Devil himself.
I guess the people have spoken there is no zen on zax
There's a backlog. This is no different than it had been. As long as people are willing to pay 500AD per Zen, there will *never* be any Zen just sitting around languishing waiting for a buyer.
I'd LOVE to be able to pay LESS than 500 AD to Zen. However, despite all the changes performed by our so loving devs.... despite all the righteous wailing and blasting of those same devs on these forums....
We are still there. It took about Seven Months for AD to climb to 500 per Zen after the Great AD Leadership Nerf. The lowest it EVER got was 380 AD to one Zen. The most recent change to invocation didn't even shift things for more than a couple of weeks, and the price never dipped below 490 AD to one Zen.
The only reasonable and logical conclusion is that 500 AD to One Zen is always going to be the price. So just get used to it... or leave the game in disgust. Many have already.... and sad as it is to say, if the devs and whomever is REALLY calling the shots don't stop the removal of QoL content, OR the ham-handed blunt object attempts to turn this game into subscription in all but name, Us PC players will have no game to play because EVERYONE but a core of diehards and botters will have left.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Can we at least expect the SCA on mobile devices? I would liek to have something of the game when not in front of my desktop...
Chances aren't very likely that you'll see a mobile app just for the SCA any time soon. If they don't want to put resources into managing the existing Gateway, I highly doubt they'd support a mobile app.
I understand your comment, but would that 'engagement' still remain if it were Read Only?
Yes, but to a significantly smaller degree. There's a lot less value in read-only mode, so people just won't interact with a read-only gateway as often as they interacted with the real one.
so basically im reading punish everyone because we dont know how to block an ip access to our site and stop the botter. they probably dont realize its just one guy on multiple pcs in the same house and 1 ip address. i can ban an ip from access to my torrents using a bittorrent client how can these web developers not do that?
punish everyone because we dont know how to block an ip access to our site and stop the botter.
Botters automatically generate new IP addresses, if only it was that easy. If that was the case, everyone on the planet would have to be IP banned hun.
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Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
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The gateway is one of the major reasons I stuck with the game, because I don't have much free time behind a computer, but I do have a lot of the time out of the house to play SCA, shop at the AH, and browse the Zen store on my iPad.
I would be very open to paying $5 for an app so I can do a little Neverwinter while waiting in line or sitting on the the train.
Not going to rehash the entire threads dedicated to the gateway, but in a time when other games are releasing gateway-style apps, its a shame to remove it.
Hopefully we will see all these freed up resources add some QOL enhancements to the client.
@panderus I wish we we're able to build our own web tools to VIEW data. If your team was to provide the information required to read the data, I can assure you the community would come up with what we want! This would require very little Dev time in the long run and assist your community. The same could be offered to consoles for those who wanted to put in the time to develop their companion app!
Looking at inventory on alts or reading mail? I hardly call that a "must have" feature worthy of continued support, or even the effort to dig into the code and make it work, as well as ensuring that these features are indeed "off" and inaccessible to botters and exploiters.
It's a waste of time.
That shouldn't take too much dev resources, at least not so much that they can't take care of other issues. You're probably talking 3-4 hours here. Then again their mentioned "resources" do not only include dev time. It's hardware and technical maintenance as well. That might actually be the biggest culprit. The Gateway software itself hasn't visibly been updated since its introduction anyway, so they can't really save devs by shutting it down.
I also agree modern games need fancy HAMSTERS like the Gateway. This MMO always has been pretty standard. Now minus foundry and minus Gateway the two more innovative features are gone. It's not getting easier on a very competitive market in which "dailies" do not separate you from the competition.
For example: Professions. The RoI, for the most part, is so freaking low that they're simple not worth doing for your average player. However, if you were capable of running dozens or hundreds of "low ROI" tasks across multiple characters with multiple profession slots, you could eek out a sustainable return on that time. However, it required you to either be a massively talented "clicker" with infinite amounts of patience, or find ways to automate it. The Gateway necessitated both. But in my opinion, both options are symptoms of a the larger problem of Professions, for the most part, being a waste of time at worse, and not adding much to the game experience at best.
Second, and the big one is the Refinement system. There's no joy in refinement. Collecting, farming or buying RP points is one of the dullest, least inspired and quite frankly, soul-crushing experiences in this game. And even when you do manage to scrap together enough RP to "upgrade" something, that upgrade comes with an extremely high chance of failure, unless of course you grind even more of your soul away for wards. Again, there's just no joy there. Not only is it not fun and feels unrewarding, it's an enormous catalyst for botting and automated gameplay.
And so honestly that's the big lesson I'd love the developers to take away from the Gatewaygate scandal. If you're seeing large sections of the game being automated or "botted", it's a clear indication that part of the game is either the cause of or a symptom of an existing system that creates more headache and misery for players, instead of joy.
I'm willing to let the Gateway go, if you're willing to bring back the joy.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
And for what? The ONLY things I can think of using a Read Only DB for are to 1) track the ZAX and sales on the AH, and to see if your tasks are done yet. Both of those give no RoI to Neverwinter, and in the case of the former, could actually create more problems for the economy (day traders, automating when to buy low/sell high).
Just to be constructive, can anyone provide an example of what a RO Gateway would be good for, specifically?
Mod edited out rule violation.
Using the gateway I find the items within 30 seconds.
Using the game it takes 5 minutes.
Engagement with the game equates to loyalty, a reduction of churn and increased spending.
(This is based on years of professional experience measuring customer loyalty).
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
I do agree with your sentiment that the content is too focused on grinding and lost its focus on epic battles with potentially significant rewards. Some of my best memories of the game are running the initial dungeons to complete gear sets (both my own, and helping guildies) and especially running things like Spellplauge Caverns for the chance at a key split drop. Fun times, indeed.
The worst of the grind for me was EE. Subsequent modules move in the right direction but have yet to reclaim the thrill of the early game for me.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
This is also not something you do on a daily basis (losing a stack of something). I agree it would save you time, but is it worth maintaining a ReadOnly web portal for?
We are still there. It took about Seven Months for AD to climb to 500 per Zen after the Great AD Leadership Nerf. The lowest it EVER got was 380 AD to one Zen. The most recent change to invocation didn't even shift things for more than a couple of weeks, and the price never dipped below 490 AD to one Zen.
The only reasonable and logical conclusion is that 500 AD to One Zen is always going to be the price. So just get used to it... or leave the game in disgust. Many have already.... and sad as it is to say, if the devs and whomever is REALLY calling the shots don't stop the removal of QoL content, OR the ham-handed blunt object attempts to turn this game into subscription in all but name, Us PC players will have no game to play because EVERYONE but a core of diehards and botters will have left.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
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