Y is the Guardian fighter the only class without a critical chance % derived from the base stats like strength or constitution?
Because not every class gets to have every possible bonus from an ability score. Fully half of them have no innate resistance ignored value, for example. Half have no AP gain. Paladins have no damage bonus.
It is fair to say that the bonus hitpoints from Constitution are quite pathetic though, with the amount of hitpoints that are now on armor (even if you don't have guild boons). This applies to all classes, but goes double for GFs.
Fighters Recovery - Healing for a large portion of the damage you deal. This still seems counter productive to a tank class. Would it be better to have it go off of incoming damage and the amount of defense you have as to the amount of healing you get . Like to see more talk and ideas on this. Thank you.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Fighters Recovery - Healing for a large portion of the damage you deal. This still seems counter productive to a tank class. Would it be better to have it go off of incoming damage and the amount of defense you have as to the amount of healing you get . Like to see more talk and ideas on this. Thank you.
I have never heard anyone complain about an easy 60% LS before. OP doesn't need to depend on a healer to keep them alive, let's keep it that way for the GF.
Y is the Guardian fighter the only class without a critical chance % derived from the base stats like strength or constitution?
Because not every class gets to have every possible bonus from an ability score. Fully half of them have no innate resistance ignored value, for example. Half have no AP gain. Paladins have no damage bonus.
It is fair to say that the bonus hitpoints from Constitution are quite pathetic though, with the amount of hitpoints that are now on armor (even if you don't have guild boons). This applies to all classes, but goes double for GFs.
Which is why they need to fix the GF CON so they are up to par with paladins, unless CON for the GF was meant to be bugged lol.
Fighters Recovery - Healing for a large portion of the damage you deal. This still seems counter productive to a tank class. Would it be better to have it go off of incoming damage and the amount of defense you have as to the amount of healing you get . Like to see more talk and ideas on this. Thank you.
I do believe even protectors don't have issues taking back the HP when they pop Fighter's Recovery. It does sound a bit odd I admit, but the skill works just fine - it's very very useful and no matter what kind of damage you're dealing it will heal you up in seconds.
Do remember that probably the best way to heal yourself (let's use a Protector since it's the lowest in DPS from GF's specs) is to slot Guarded Assault. By simply raising your shield your HP will be replenished very quickly.
Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based? 2). Yes. I am panzer! 3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen. 4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
Fighters Recovery - Healing for a large portion of the damage you deal. This still seems counter productive to a tank class. Would it be better to have it go off of incoming damage and the amount of defense you have as to the amount of healing you get . Like to see more talk and ideas on this. Thank you.
I do believe even protectors don't have issues taking back the HP when they pop Fighter's Recovery. It does sound a bit odd I admit, but the skill works just fine - it's very very useful and no matter what kind of damage you're dealing it will heal you up in seconds.
Do remember that probably the best way to heal yourself (let's use a Protector since it's the lowest in DPS from GF's specs) is to slot Guarded Assault. By simply raising your shield your HP will be replenished very quickly.
My GF is protecor. Taking orcus as an example, my health is fully recoverd in about one or two seconds, even tanking him passively, never using guarded assault, only shield talent and Steel defense all time in that dungeon. I obviously don´t get how this feat works, but even at low ammounts of dealt damage or blocking it recovers my health from 1 to full health in no time, being at full AP the next two seconds. There is not much space to fak things up, chaining dailies that way.
Fighters Recovery - Healing for a large portion of the damage you deal. This still seems counter productive to a tank class. Would it be better to have it go off of incoming damage and the amount of defense you have as to the amount of healing you get . Like to see more talk and ideas on this. Thank you.
I do believe even protectors don't have issues taking back the HP when they pop Fighter's Recovery. It does sound a bit odd I admit, but the skill works just fine - it's very very useful and no matter what kind of damage you're dealing it will heal you up in seconds.
Do remember that probably the best way to heal yourself (let's use a Protector since it's the lowest in DPS from GF's specs) is to slot Guarded Assault. By simply raising your shield your HP will be replenished very quickly.
You are very correct and that was my only point it just sounds odd. That and all I have seen talked about for the very most part is all DPS side of the coin Nerf - - Dont nerf .We are a defender and I would like to see some return on that investment in Defense. And I very much dont want to see them have to nerf the new dungeon like they did CN just so that a defender can tank it. People love to focus on the bug that was round then but it was in fact more than that or they would not have had to also nerf the difficulty of it as well.
I am not sure if this has already been brought up, but I had some thoughts regarding ITF. There seems to be a huge concern about ITF only providing a 30% flat damage buff at rank 4.
1)I think that this is great for non-tactician builds and provides a decent buff for a group across the board; however, it is one of the primary buffs that separates this class from a paladin tank. It would still give a decent buff for conqueror and protector builds that may not spec completely for defense.
Of note though, wasn't the point of many of the class changes supposed to provide viability and balance across classes as well as across paragon paths for each class?
If someone chooses to spec completely for defense they should be able to benefit from that build, and if they choose to focus on a balance of stats they should also benefit but in a different way.
A possible solution:
2)Make the capstone of tactician provide an extra 10% of DR to ITF damage. We would see high defense GFs buffing ITF then up to 50-60% from the base 30%, though still not nearly the 200% or more that some are achieving currently on live. This would keep the high defense builds still viable by improving their ability to buff the party, while being limited to the Tactician path. This keeps variety and a much needed class ability that makes the GF desirable in dungeon runs, while also decreasing the overpoweredness the ability has currently on live.
Y is the Guardian fighter the only class without a critical chance % derived from the base stats like strength or constitution?
Because not every class gets to have every possible bonus from an ability score. Fully half of them have no innate resistance ignored value, for example. Half have no AP gain. Paladins have no damage bonus.
It is fair to say that the bonus hitpoints from Constitution are quite pathetic though, with the amount of hitpoints that are now on armor (even if you don't have guild boons). This applies to all classes, but goes double for GFs.
Which is why they need to fix the GF CON so they are up to par with paladins, unless CON for the GF was meant to be bugged lol.
OP and GF con stats work exactly the same way. OP however has a heroic feat that gives +2.5% bonus Max HP per point in con. that is where the difference in HP comes in.
Guild - The Imaginary Friends We are searching for slave labor, will pay with food from our farm!
All GF builds buff. No GF needs to stack HP to tank if they're at the DR cap either. The main difference between a tank build and DPS build is what offensive stats you're stacking into. If you're stacking recovery you're a tank, if you're stacking crit and power you're DPS. I'm guessing you're implying that Protectors are the only true tank builds but that's a load of nonsense since most of GF's tanking mechanics rely on having high defense and going SM for steel defense, something tac can do while buffing. Tac isn't so much a buff build as it is a tank build with benefits that matter because going protector doesn't offer any real benefits to tanking. But hey, we need to nerf everything into ground instead of addressing the fact that the tanking tree on a tank class is **** at its role.
Sorry, i'm just spechless and "facedesking" .
EDIT: After i could recover from my initial "shock", i will just say this, and hope you finally undertand why GF class needs that ITF nerf: Back on mod3, GWF Class just needed to stack Defense, ArP and Recovery to reach insane amounts of power. Nowadays, the very same thing is happening to GF class. The diference between both classes is one: Even after the nerf on ITF, GF class will still have one of the bests burst damage of the whole game. GWF class awaited until "Intimidation" build kicked in...
Erm ... nothing in my post said anything about the itf nerf being unnecessary.
Honestly though you absolutely no idea what you're talking about though. The bit about GFs needing to stack HP is absolutely untrue.
Endless Consumtion needs to be removed, the lifesteal is overperforming or make it work only on healing spells and not lifesteal, which it does do, Fighter's recovery healing is 3x times better thans to that boon
PvE GFs don't even take Endless Consumption because they don't use lifesteal.
Fighter's recovery just heals you equal to the damage you deal for the duration of its effect and most tanks are only around 120k-150k anyways so they hit orcus for 100k and they're instantly healed. Stop trying to insert your pet PvP nerfs into the conversation when you have no idea what you're talking about.
Show me screen caps of DPS GFs and their 'insane amounts' of damage, otherwise quit talking about that. As a Tactician GF getting the same benefit from my ItF as the rest of the party I can't break 10 million damage. Mediocre dps classes can do 10x the damage I do. And that's me playing as dps most if the time, since I only really tank the bosses.
A Conq specd GF does NOT do 10x the damage of a Tact GF! And if they did they are the equivalent of a mediocre dps...
Where are the screen caps or videos of this insane damage? With a screen cap of the GFs char sheet too.
I'd like to see an improvement on Protector path, because is weird that the tank path of a tank class is the less used.
I have a suggestion about the capstone.
Now is: Iron Guard- with every melee hit on an enemy, you reduce its damage by 5%. Maximum 20% damage reduction.
My suggestion: additionally, you builds threat when struck by a foe. additionally, you and your allies (maximum 4) deals 5% more damage on marked enemies.
So, the capstone will now provide incoming damage reduction, a little damage buff (but only on marked target) and, most important, the gf will be able to build a lot more threat.
I'm thinking at pve, and don't know if this can be too much for pvp, but maybe a dedicated pvp player can figure out.
Regards
Seems like we play the for the same builds of guardian fighter I agree with you and also think that our feat [Iron Guard] could be better. What do you think about this (sorry for double post)?
Feedback: Feat: Iron Guard "This feat wasn't changed but I would like to write some feedback about it's activation and about how it effects some new passive skills.
To have enough time of shield blocking I forced to use [Shield tallent]. It is logical because increasing of shield stamina is good for build focused on blocking.
But to activate [Iron Guard] well I forced to use not so tanky passive skill [Guarded Assault]. It just reflect some damage to attacker and activate [Iron Guard] debuff. There are some more tasty tanky passive skills but I can't use them because without [Guarded Assault] [Iron Guard] is not so usefull and effective.
Could you please change activation of [Iron Guard] to let protectors be able to use new mechanics? You did it really well. I like these changes in some passive skills. But as I had already told I can't use it because I am forced to use [Shield tallent]+[Guarded Assault].
For example let [Iron Guard] will be activated on targets in R radius. First stack will be activated instantly. But for activate one more stack guardian fighter will need to stay in R distance from target for about 3-4 seconds. Maybe also it will be good to add that marked targets gain stacks of [Iron Guard] faster on N% and while there are control effects on GF he can't debuff targets in R radius.
It is partly a kind of nerf because now I will not be able to activate [Iron Guard] from very afar as it is now. But after these changes protectors will be able to enjoy other passive skills that you were working at. I'll be very thank if you will let us to use some new passive skills."
Thank you and sorry for my english
Well, this can be a very nice change, in my opinion. Having the protector capstone acting like an aura will make us able to not slot the classic Shield defence/guarded assault all the time, just to don't waste the capstone itself.
Hope @amenar will take a look on that. He's making a good job, and is good to see the developers so responsive with the community.
FYI, that video April 16 was before "Bonding fix"-wich killed this game making content even more trivial. That time the said GF obviously used an augment having something like 20k crit and 32k power, I saw a pic from him/her linked by someone else 3.4k IL as far as I remember. I agree about everyone saying a GF can´t mess with a striker like GWF, but normally this is due to setup (artifacts/powers/feats etc) and gear. Every class can be a monster due to buffs these days.
* note GF is using rank 8s and an augment, TR has a bonding pet and rank 12s. AFAIK, that is literally the best pve tr on the server. You can bet any player from any class you like (with the exception of buglocks, but those will be fixed anyhow at some point) against a good dps GF, I will bet the GF takes the lead for DPS.
based on how FAST they finished edemo the DPS of the GF is of a STRIKER, and you cannot say: "Oh other classes had low dps", we are talkin about a 5s boss clear, which you cannot even excuse that by sayin the other classes were weak, it's a OVERPERFORMANCE of a DEFENDER CLASS that TOPS other classes damage, because of the initial high base damage + multipliers.
Hi, i have a question. Looking at acts, i noticed Mia's damage. Very very low, compared to the others. Is Mia an average gf? I mean, how much is his IL? I ask that because Freya looks all but an average player. On the other hand, Mia looks more like my own gf... A difference like that, on the same class, is quite impressive.
@ilsilenzioso thats what we try to explain Mia is tank+ buff Freya is tank+dps
a GF can't give up on his abilities to tank, since he has block on shift, sure he gives away some of the defensive feats/stats for a more DPS focused problably a conquerer, while Mia is a tactician recovery+ spam itf. i wouldn't say they are average as players, but they have gear that everyone can get , even you can achieve that gear, but maybe if u ask the players ingame they can teach you how to build your GF, feats/powers and timing.
But as you say "looks all but an average player" kinda devalues what other players said in this thread when they used as arguments " we cannot finish our dailies, we dont have damage" "GF is useless" "you butchered a class" and in reality the GF overperforms where it is not needed, this class doesn't need to Buff a group, and it surerly doesn't need to be top dps, which leaves him being a tank, thats what the class is supposed to be and should be, therefore you have changes on ITF and KC, because they are moer than needed, and its far from killin the class, it is just gettin slowly reduced to what it should've been in the first place.
More or less there are more buffs for the class than nerfs, especially those that improve the quality of life.
Ty for the quick reply.
I agree with you that gf don't need to be a top dps class, and that both itf and kc were too much, and now they will be toned down, with anvil and and some other things too. This is not destroying the class at all, you are right. I also agree that gf need to be a tank. For this role, some buff for the group is fine, just like the dc do, and the new itf looks a worth power anyway. But, other than that, i see a big issue: aggro management. Assuming that the gf has some tools to build threat, the threat itself is still related to damage inflicted. This is why me and a lot of gf are scared when talking about class damage: no damage is equal to no threat, and this translate in a fail while tanking. What i think is that gf need a different way to build threat, not related to damage at all. I suggested a rework for the protector capstone, that allow the gf to build threat on damage received. Just like the destroyer capstone works for gwf to build determination.
Assuming that log and video are as you say - and there are a lot of questions I have about it - I'll speak from another perspective.
I play on Xbox and respec tokens are 500 Zen. Race reroll are 1500, which would be needed to build a dps GF. Googling dps GF doesn't bring up a whole lot of useful info, so after 20 minutes of that I gave up. I used an overflow power point to pick up KC - as a buff tank I saw no reason to even put points in it. My AoD has 3 points in it. I slotted ItF, AoD, and KC to run some crappy tests. I used Combat Superiority and Guarded Assault features.
What I found was KC doesn't even show how long it lasts and by the time I could check my buffs it disappeared after a couple seconds. So this buff with one point lasts like 5-6 seconds I'm guessing, so 12 at max rank. In my tests that only left time for ItF then KC then AoD before the buff left. In WoD heroics on the end boss I saw some AoD hits in the 300k+ range. All those buffs and that's what it hit for... My GWF routinely hits for 2 million + with Sure Strike spam, at whatever boss health.
I'm trying to learn this overpowered gf setup, so snide comments about people not knowing their class are offensive. Keep that stuff out of the discussion please.
In short I'm curious why a BiS GF was using and augment with rank 8s in that video, and I'm still trying to figure out how to build this monster dps GF. Was I using the wrong encounters? Was it because my KC and AoD werent maxed? If so that's an expensive change for me, and many others...
You said a Tact GF can out dps a BiS TR, but I still don't see how. That act shot didn't show powers used, and other info that would paint a better picture.
I assume preview shard gives free respec? That would make sense. If so then of course people with lots of time can fine tune their specs for max dps...
And everyone was saying ItF needed nerfed, so don't say that please. Boss melting probably isn't good for the game, but neutering the GF won't stop that according to some. They say boss melts now take 10-15 seconds now instead if 5 with current ItF. Sounds like there are other nerfs needed if you ask me...
Comments
It is fair to say that the bonus hitpoints from Constitution are quite pathetic though, with the amount of hitpoints that are now on armor (even if you don't have guild boons). This applies to all classes, but goes double for GFs.
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Guardian Fighter
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https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1221446/the-future-of-the-gf/p1 Existing Problems Still In The Guardian Fighter
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/comment/12984912m
Feat Changes I'd like to see in The Guardian Fighter
It does sound a bit odd I admit, but the skill works just fine - it's very very useful and no matter what kind of damage you're dealing it will heal you up in seconds.
Do remember that probably the best way to heal yourself (let's use a Protector since it's the lowest in DPS from GF's specs) is to slot Guarded Assault. By simply raising your shield your HP will be replenished very quickly.
A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
2). Yes. I am panzer!
3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
I obviously don´t get how this feat works, but even at low ammounts of dealt damage or blocking it recovers my health from 1 to full health in no time, being at full AP the next two seconds.
There is not much space to fak things up, chaining dailies that way.
1)I think that this is great for non-tactician builds and provides a decent buff for a group across the board; however, it is one of the primary buffs that separates this class from a paladin tank. It would still give a decent buff for conqueror and protector builds that may not spec completely for defense.
Of note though, wasn't the point of many of the class changes supposed to provide viability and balance across classes as well as across paragon paths for each class?
If someone chooses to spec completely for defense they should be able to benefit from that build, and if they choose to focus on a balance of stats they should also benefit but in a different way.
A possible solution:
2)Make the capstone of tactician provide an extra 10% of DR to ITF damage. We would see high defense GFs buffing ITF then up to 50-60% from the base 30%, though still not nearly the 200% or more that some are achieving currently on live. This would keep the high defense builds still viable by improving their ability to buff the party, while being limited to the Tactician path. This keeps variety and a much needed class ability that makes the GF desirable in dungeon runs, while also decreasing the overpoweredness the ability has currently on live.
Just my two cents
We are searching for slave labor, will pay with food from our farm!
Honestly though you absolutely no idea what you're talking about though. The bit about GFs needing to stack HP is absolutely untrue.
PvE GFs don't even take Endless Consumption because they don't use lifesteal.
Fighter's recovery just heals you equal to the damage you deal for the duration of its effect and most tanks are only around 120k-150k anyways so they hit orcus for 100k and they're instantly healed. Stop trying to insert your pet PvP nerfs into the conversation when you have no idea what you're talking about.
A Conq specd GF does NOT do 10x the damage of a Tact GF! And if they did they are the equivalent of a mediocre dps...
Where are the screen caps or videos of this insane damage? With a screen cap of the GFs char sheet too.
Hope @amenar will take a look on that. He's making a good job, and is good to see the developers so responsive with the community.
Regards
That time the said GF obviously used an augment having something like 20k crit and 32k power, I saw a pic from him/her linked by someone else 3.4k IL as far as I remember.
I agree about everyone saying a GF can´t mess with a striker like GWF, but normally this is due to setup (artifacts/powers/feats etc) and gear. Every class can be a monster due to buffs these days.
Looking at acts, i noticed Mia's damage. Very very low, compared to the others. Is Mia an average gf? I mean, how much is his IL?
I ask that because Freya looks all but an average player. On the other hand, Mia looks more like my own gf...
A difference like that, on the same class, is quite impressive.
Ty for reading
Regards
I agree with you that gf don't need to be a top dps class, and that both itf and kc were too much, and now they will be toned down, with anvil and and some other things too.
This is not destroying the class at all, you are right.
I also agree that gf need to be a tank. For this role, some buff for the group is fine, just like the dc do, and the new itf looks a worth power anyway.
But, other than that, i see a big issue: aggro management. Assuming that the gf has some tools to build threat, the threat itself is still related to damage inflicted. This is why me and a lot of gf are scared when talking about class damage: no damage is equal to no threat, and this translate in a fail while tanking.
What i think is that gf need a different way to build threat, not related to damage at all. I suggested a rework for the protector capstone, that allow the gf to build threat on damage received. Just like the destroyer capstone works for gwf to build determination.
What do you think about that?
I play on Xbox and respec tokens are 500 Zen. Race reroll are 1500, which would be needed to build a dps GF. Googling dps GF doesn't bring up a whole lot of useful info, so after 20 minutes of that I gave up. I used an overflow power point to pick up KC - as a buff tank I saw no reason to even put points in it. My AoD has 3 points in it. I slotted ItF, AoD, and KC to run some crappy tests. I used Combat Superiority and Guarded Assault features.
What I found was KC doesn't even show how long it lasts and by the time I could check my buffs it disappeared after a couple seconds. So this buff with one point lasts like 5-6 seconds I'm guessing, so 12 at max rank. In my tests that only left time for ItF then KC then AoD before the buff left. In WoD heroics on the end boss I saw some AoD hits in the 300k+ range. All those buffs and that's what it hit for... My GWF routinely hits for 2 million + with Sure Strike spam, at whatever boss health.
I'm trying to learn this overpowered gf setup, so snide comments about people not knowing their class are offensive. Keep that stuff out of the discussion please.
In short I'm curious why a BiS GF was using and augment with rank 8s in that video, and I'm still trying to figure out how to build this monster dps GF. Was I using the wrong encounters? Was it because my KC and AoD werent maxed? If so that's an expensive change for me, and many others...
You said a Tact GF can out dps a BiS TR, but I still don't see how. That act shot didn't show powers used, and other info that would paint a better picture.
I assume preview shard gives free respec? That would make sense. If so then of course people with lots of time can fine tune their specs for max dps...
And everyone was saying ItF needed nerfed, so don't say that please. Boss melting probably isn't good for the game, but neutering the GF won't stop that according to some. They say boss melts now take 10-15 seconds now instead if 5 with current ItF. Sounds like there are other nerfs needed if you ask me...