I for one was always against SH period, what if the guildleader kicks everyone out of the guild and sells it.
While this would be hurting the leader him/herself atm, this could be a problem, when more and more guilds become R 20. You dont need a big guild to maintain a BIS Stronghold, you are done. Many guilds lowered their requirements, to get more players for the stronghold grind. In a few month, they wont need them anymore.
Sorry to take so long to get back to you -- things have been a bit hectic for me here. (I just finished a design pitch for something for the *next* module, which is what's been keeping me busy. But the pitch doc is done now. Whew.)
Lots of great feedback, so thanks to everyone for that. Special thanks to beckylunatic, super-detailed and well-thought-out feedback as always.
The viability of some of the profession tasks (gold in particular) is a really good point. It's kind of an interesting situation design-wise, so let me go into it more (skip this paragraph if you don't care how the sausage is made). When we cost these things, there are two pretty different approaches. What I used here was a look at how quickly people earned various things (in this case gold) by playing "normally" -- running around, killing stuff, selling the junk you get. With that math, the amount of gold you get is (more or less -- no claims made for super-accuracy here!) reasonable compared to the other profession tasks, in terms of number of hours of gameplay. But of course as several people have pointed out, there's another way to earn gold -- go on the auction house and buy things like chalices. And that way is *much* more efficient (because mostly people don't have a lot of use for gold, so it sells for cheap in the currency people really care about, namely AD). But we have to be careful on our end -- buying stuff on the auction house will pretty much always be more efficient, because it represents people getting rid of stuff they don't want, or because of botting, or just plain people doing something in the most efficient way possible (the wonders of a market economy -- mostly a good thing!). If we always go after the auction house price, we can wind up chasing our own tail (sending some part of the economy spinning out of control as it gets successively more, or less, expensive). All that said, it's silly to have the two prices be so far out of line. If the gold task isn't the greatest, that's OK, but I think it's too sad right now, so I plan to raise it. Similarly for the gems task.
TL;DR: Raising value of gold and gems tasks. They may not be super-great, but they'll be better. My current plan is x5 for gold and x2 for gems (not a promise, just the current plan).
Good catch on Leadership tiering. That's just a flat-out mistake on my part.
There's been lots of discussion about how it's discouraging to work super-hard and then have the price go down. I understand the pain, I can feel it, but I gotta warn you -- sometimes that kind of thing will happen. In MMOs, there are super-dedicated people who play a ton, and there are people who are more casual. Like any MMO, we want to reward the dedicated people but let the casual people have fun too. One classic way to do that is make something hard or expensive at first, but then gradually make it easier over time. The elite will get there first. But over time, more people will get there. On balance, I think that's a good thing. Also, if we just plain made something too expensive, we should fix that!
Influence: this is definitely something we've been looking at. When we did this whole costing pass, we looked at all the coffers to see which ones were the biggest problem. Influence was not the biggest problem according to our data, but it was definitely one of the tougher ones, and we'll keep watching it. Some things that made us willing to wait and see how it goes were that it's not like AD or gems where you really want to keep it for yourself (the only thing to do with it is give it to the coffer) and it's also very farmable -- if your guild sees it needs influence, it can decide to go out and get more. But if it's an endless and frustrating grind to get more, that's no good, so we need to watch that. The feedback here definitely is making me more suspicious of our influence costs, and I've been conveying that to others on the team.
Again, thanks for all the feedback! It's been a really big help.
The Ranger give us a quest for 3 SH-HE, but we should do 5 SH-HE for reach the HE-cap.
1) Let US reach the HE-Cap with 3 SH-HE only. ( 200/100/100 instead of 150/120/75/35/20 ) -> More easy to do with 2 or + characters, no waste of time for peanuts.
2) Move the Boons Structures NPCs in the SH Hall, it take few minutes to go at each NPC, and for a lot of players, it's too much for such a poor influence reward before the tier 4 Quests.
3) Demonic SH-HE are SH-HE yes or not ? But no Influence reward from them -> no interest to do them ( we have to do 9 DHE each day, we will not doing more without real rewards ).
4) Add a Minor (+100) ( or Basic (+200)) Influence Voucher as a systematic reward for Dragonflight Event.
I'm guild leader of a Lv 15 Guild and I would like to give you our feedback. We usually have 20-40 players everyday, very cooperative with their donations and the daily grind. However, there are 3 main things that are not longer fun anymore: Influence, Fey Trinkets and Conqueror's Shards. Firstly, Influence, it is extremely boring to farm the same heroic encounters every day. We have been doing the same thing not only with 1 character but several. We try to farm the HE for 15+ players in order to change the monotony but it's still the same. We want to feel like we are doing certain activities that generates resources that we will be able to contribute to the guild and not like we are supposed to work (like a job) for our guild running the same tedious routine of farming HE again and again.
Farming Sharandar is annoying because it doesn't feel rewarding to spend a lot of time doing daily quests just to deliver a small amount of resources to the mimic. I'll give you an example: If we want to farm Tyranny we can do Dragon Runs in Well of Dragons or Tiamat, that means that we are also receiving AD after selling some items while doing stuff together as a guild. Same thing in Dread Ring, we are doing the daily lairs and receiving greater marks that we need for our characters or we can also sell them. As you can see, both areas are rewarding and doesn't really feel like a pain at all because you are running content that will benefit your guild and yourself directly.
Regarding to the Conqueror's Shards, we are mainly a PvE guild and we really dislike the fact that if we want one of the best boon structures in the game (barracks) then it is necessary to do PvP. It is simply not right to throw PvE players to PvP when they are just looking for something that they only want to use in PvE. I can understand that you want to encourage the PvP environment by adding more players but I'm sure that most PvP players are looking for quality instead of quantity and I'm not going deeper in this issue, considering that there are a ton of reports written every day by these PvPers. Solving their issues would bring a better PvP life for the whole game and using baits like adding conqueror's shards only for PvP matches won't be necessary anymore. I've already noticed that the new campaign will let us get a few shards but I'm afraid that it will not be enough.
I would like to suggest the following:
* Influence: Let us get influence by doing Heroic Encounters in every map of the game, the amount can be halved so we get the same actual amount if we do it in our strongholds and less in other areas. We are adventurers after all, aren't we supposed to get influence by helping in other zones?. Also, adding Influence to the Dragonflight event, 50 or 100 per dragon killed up to a certain daily limit.
* Sharandar: You could add RP like resonance stones, peridots, aquamarines, etc (not just thaumaturge, this isn't interesting) and a small chance to get a Preservation Ward BoA. Additionally, include in the loot for every lair his respective campaign resource, i.e: If I'm doing Witch Fen then I'll get more Abjuring Charms. In summary, running Sharandar and the lairs will be more interesting because I'll get a direct benefit plus resources for my guild. Getting additional resources won't have a major impact in the campaign because it's gated behind Feywild Sparks.
One more thing, could you please take a look to the Illerfarn Relic and/or the resources given by the Genie's Gift for Sharandar? The amount of resources is very, very low in comparison to the other campaigns and it doesn't make any sense to waste a Genie's Gift in Feywld Sparks or Gold Crescents.
* Conqueror's Shards: It would be great if there's a NPC that allow us to exchange one shard for another, maybe not a 1:1 ratio but that would solve a lot of problems for both PvE and PvP players considering that most of each position are not really interested in participating in both kind of content. PvE players that dislike to PvP will find another way to get Conqueror's and PvP players that don't want to do anything related to PvE will still be able to gather enough shards doing only what they really like to do. Are you guys tracking what are the players doing with their Fangs of the Dragonflight? After some months of killing dragons in the stronghold there's not really much to do with this item besides gearing up alts. Perhaps, you could add vouchers to the Marketplace that we can purchase with Fangs. Starting with Green Vouchers at Market Lv X, then Blue after Lv X and even Major Vouchers after certain Level with a cost of 20, 30, etc Fangs each.
As you can see, each one of these suggestions are based in playing the content that you have created for the players. It is a great idea to feel that almost everything I do in the game generate a contribution to my guild, not forced as an extremely boring grinding but as a way to play helping my guildies and myself at the same time.
I'd love to see other stuff give influence too. Not just HEs on the Stronghold map. Basically every quests could give some influence. In the end we are increasing the guild's influence in the world by helping folks. From a role-playing point of view that'd be nice. It'd also help avoid the boredom of running the same HEs over and over and over again.
It would also be great if every HE would give the same amount of influence. It's just not efficient to do more than three HEs. The ratio of influence to time played just gets to bad.
Feedback Thank you for looking at the gems and gold return values. I would like to echo what other people are saying in having some sort of system to trade shards. a 2:1 ratio or something similar of 2 shards you don't want for 1 shard that you do would go a long ways to helping small guilds that get quickly capped on 1 shard or another but have many thousands they need to grind for of a different shard.
Lazalia (lazaroth666) has some excellent points as well about making the grind more enjoyable or more rewarding. Sharandar really is a horrible place to farm right now. it does reward you with thaumaturgic stones but those are practically useless since stacks of R4 enchants are so abundantly available that no one who does a time/reward analysis would ever go farm thaum stones. they would farm DR for greater marks,sell the marks and get many hundreds of times the RP value by using that AD to buy r4s. I understand you do not wish to balance the game around what is available on the AH (and that is smart) but as it is the reward differences between sharandar and other zones is pretty intense.
And I would like to add a request as well to make the AD coffers from leadership Bind to Account. Right now they are BoP and that means if i would have to get all those alts into my guild one at a time to donate the coffers which is needlessly time consuming and annoying both for myself and my guild leaders whom i have to bother. Making the coffers BoA would solve this issue handily.
Having scaling rewards from dragonflight would also be an awesome thing to have. You can base the rewards off of dragons killed per event (which happens to some extent as to the number of vouchers you get, but i would like to see a visible quality increase as well... or at least know that one is in place) as well as (more importantly) the guild hall level. At some point dragons should stop rewarding green vouchers and only provide blue vouchers, and as the guild level increases from there the drop rate of purple vouchers should increase. Farming dragons at guild hall lv 16 is not nearly as rewarding as it is for a lv 5 guild since the rewards are exactly the same (anecdotal of course) but the costs to upgrade are leagues apart
thanks for your feedback you gave us rgutscheradev
Guild - The Imaginary Friends We are searching for slave labor, will pay with food from our farm!
some changes are needed in guild store as well mostly all items needs marks price reduction for example blue guild gear which is there to allow us to gear up alts but it costs to much credits and none buys it ,dragon flight gear costs way to much dragon fangs and credits,we get to small amount of credits for ad donations (20 ad for 1 credit would be more fair and realistic )so ppl might donate ad if want easy credits ,first dragonflight boss needs to drop some fangs instead of none ,dungens and skirmishes should always give something for guilds not only if u have daily,influnce daily cap needs to be removed
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Feedback on Influence costs
Lots of people chiming in on this, but I want to give some numbers.
My guild is of the very small variety. So, we're still at the stage of needing 126k Influence for the next thing (yes, that's the 4 -> 5 hall upgrade; small guilds, eh?). Divide that by 400 and you get 315 character days. Not a big deal if your guild is so large you're always at the limit, right? If 50 accounts run HEs on 2 characters each, you can be done in a little more than 3 days. Yay, that was easy! (Until you get to higher tiers and it just never stops and everyone is fed up and wants to vomit at the thought of doing another HE.)
Take into account that diminishing returns on Influence/HE make it really inefficient to get the full 400 daily. Getting 345 and stopping is sensible, or push it to 380 because that should get you to 100 enemies slain. That doesn't hurt the big guilds much, because they've got so many members that someone can do a bit more and it makes up for someone else doing a bit less, and all of it is no big deal. It has a snowball effect on slowing down the small ones even more, because every little bit of everything that you don't put in the coffer today adds up to more days of not getting anywhere.
Try doing this with fewer than 10 people. It's possible to push more alts through the SH HE gauntlet, but say it takes 15 minutes per character to do 3 of them. So say you run it with 5 characters. You just spent more than an hour doing an activity that gets you nothing but Influence and a handful of RP and maybe a few other things to cram into the coffer, and that's your gaming time for the day and you got 1725 Influence, no AD, no significant amounts of campaign currency or surplus equipment, and you didn't really get to do anything fun either. Your guildies don't even all have 5 characters, or not ones that can do the HEs, so the burden of Influence falls on even fewer human beings. Divide 315 character days by 15 characters and you get 21 days, if all 15 characters pull their full load each and every day. They probably won't, because people get sick of it and it's not fair to ask them to turn their hobby into a job. They'll just burn out. Burning out on the last guild hall upgrade is why we're only halfway to our next Influence requirement 3 or 4 months down the road, between that and the immediacy of needing this campaign currency and that one for each production structure upgrade that was also required. We can only do so much in a day. All of these activities take time.
At any rate, character days is a very important unit of measure for Influence costs. There's no other use for the item, and you can farm it within the daily limits, but getting it requires participating in a tedious activity that excludes all other in-game goals. It isn't just onerous for small guilds. Big guilds have suffered plenty of member burnout on this front too.
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Back when Strongholds was fairly newly launched, they nerfed the boon structure missions that gave Influence to allow the HEs to give more, so that the Influence bottleneck wasn't even worse for lower rank guilds with no boon structures, but maintaining the daily cap not much higher than what you can get from HEs now.
I know it had the ultimate effect of making the structure missions feel like they weren't worth it at all. Considering the ever-increasing requirements for Influence by the time a guild actually gets access to them, and the fact that we really can't do everything every day because that way lies madness, I don't think it would hurt to restore their old value without removing anything from HEs. At the very least, it would provide some variety in how to obtain Influence. I still think that crafting it, and trading shards for it are all worth considering, because it's required for at least the next 3 things I want to build or upgrade, and with the current structure, this is a painful prospect.
You're trying to give us a fun game we want to keep playing, not kill us.
Lots of people chiming in on this, but I want to give some numbers. So say you run it with 5 characters. You just spent more than an hour doing an activity that gets you nothing but Influence and a handful of RP and maybe a few other things to cram into the coffer, and that's your gaming time for the day and you got 1725 Influence, no AD, no significant amounts of campaign currency or surplus equipment, and you didn't really get to do anything fun either
I think this is actually a very general issue of the game. It too often pulls you out of stuff you'd like to do and forces you into stuff you have to do. Almost every important area comes with an individual grind that nets you little else in the process.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Lots of people chiming in on this, but I want to give some numbers. So say you run it with 5 characters. You just spent more than an hour doing an activity that gets you nothing but Influence and a handful of RP and maybe a few other things to cram into the coffer, and that's your gaming time for the day and you got 1725 Influence, no AD, no significant amounts of campaign currency or surplus equipment, and you didn't really get to do anything fun either
I think this is actually a very general issue of the game. It too often pulls you out of stuff you'd like to do and forces you into stuff you have to do. Almost every important area comes with an individual grind that nets you little else in the process.
True dat.
(Edit: In a nutshell, why people don't spend more time in Foundry quests.)
I'm guild leader of a Lv 15 Guild and I would like to give you our feedback. We usually have 20-40 players everyday, very cooperative with their donations and the daily grind. However, there are 3 main things that are not longer fun anymore: Influence, Fey Trinkets and Conqueror's Shards. Firstly, Influence, it is extremely boring to farm the same heroic encounters every day. We have been doing the same thing not only with 1 character but several. We try to farm the HE for 15+ players in order to change the monotony but it's still the same. We want to feel like we are doing certain activities that generates resources that we will be able to contribute to the guild and not like we are supposed to work (like a job) for our guild running the same tedious routine of farming HE again and again.
Farming Sharandar is annoying because it doesn't feel rewarding to spend a lot of time doing daily quests just to deliver a small amount of resources to the mimic. I'll give you an example: If we want to farm Tyranny we can do Dragon Runs in Well of Dragons or Tiamat, that means that we are also receiving AD after selling some items while doing stuff together as a guild. Same thing in Dread Ring, we are doing the daily lairs and receiving greater marks that we need for our characters or we can also sell them. As you can see, both areas are rewarding and doesn't really feel like a pain at all because you are running content that will benefit your guild and yourself directly.
Regarding to the Conqueror's Shards, we are mainly a PvE guild and we really dislike the fact that if we want one of the best boon structures in the game (barracks) then it is necessary to do PvP. It is simply not right to throw PvE players to PvP when they are just looking for something that they only want to use in PvE. I can understand that you want to encourage the PvP environment by adding more players but I'm sure that most PvP players are looking for quality instead of quantity and I'm not going deeper in this issue, considering that there are a ton of reports written every day by these PvPers. Solving their issues would bring a better PvP life for the whole game and using baits like adding conqueror's shards only for PvP matches won't be necessary anymore. I've already noticed that the new campaign will let us get a few shards but I'm afraid that it will not be enough.
I would like to suggest the following:
* Influence: Let us get influence by doing Heroic Encounters in every map of the game, the amount can be halved so we get the same actual amount if we do it in our strongholds and less in other areas. We are adventurers after all, aren't we supposed to get influence by helping in other zones?. Also, adding Influence to the Dragonflight event, 50 or 100 per dragon killed up to a certain daily limit.
* Sharandar: You could add RP like resonance stones, peridots, aquamarines, etc (not just thaumaturge, this isn't interesting) and a small chance to get a Preservation Ward BoA. Additionally, include in the loot for every lair his respective campaign resource, i.e: If I'm doing Witch Fen then I'll get more Abjuring Charms. In summary, running Sharandar and the lairs will be more interesting because I'll get a direct benefit plus resources for my guild. Getting additional resources won't have a major impact in the campaign because it's gated behind Feywild Sparks.
One more thing, could you please take a look to the Illerfarn Relic and/or the resources given by the Genie's Gift for Sharandar? The amount of resources is very, very low in comparison to the other campaigns and it doesn't make any sense to waste a Genie's Gift in Feywld Sparks or Gold Crescents.
* Conqueror's Shards: It would be great if there's a NPC that allow us to exchange one shard for another, maybe not a 1:1 ratio but that would solve a lot of problems for both PvE and PvP players considering that most of each position are not really interested in participating in both kind of content. PvE players that dislike to PvP will find another way to get Conqueror's and PvP players that don't want to do anything related to PvE will still be able to gather enough shards doing only what they really like to do. Are you guys tracking what are the players doing with their Fangs of the Dragonflight? After some months of killing dragons in the stronghold there's not really much to do with this item besides gearing up alts. Perhaps, you could add vouchers to the Marketplace that we can purchase with Fangs. Starting with Green Vouchers at Market Lv X, then Blue after Lv X and even Major Vouchers after certain Level with a cost of 20, 30, etc Fangs each.
As you can see, each one of these suggestions are based in playing the content that you have created for the players. It is a great idea to feel that almost everything I do in the game generate a contribution to my guild, not forced as an extremely boring grinding but as a way to play helping my guildies and myself at the same time.
Thank you very much for your attention.
+1 to these great ideas. Especially adding influence to the dragon event. This will help encourage some more guild activity and break up the terrible HE grind that we have now
Influence and AD is what has been worrying me the most as a guild leader of a medium (now) sized guild. Influence is really like going to work again instead of having some fun/relax when you come home. I'm not pushing too much on Influence on newest member cause i don't want them to reach the burn-out , i and other few, felt doing it every day with multiple chars (10+ myself) only cause the requirement are insane. Actually i can't do it more than twice a day, it really makes me sick.
I think that only one task available at time for Leadership coffer generation is not good; remove that cap and give us the possibility to do 3 tasks at time.
404 Italians Not Found Guild Leader
Matt Shieldheart 3.5k GF Conq PVE _ Matt Shieldheart 0 3.5k GF Tactician PVE _ Matt Shieldheart II 4.1k Buffer DC _ Matt Shieldheart III 4.3k Thauma CW _ Matt Shieldheart IV 3.5k Exe TR _ Matt Shieldheart V 3.9k Destroyer GWF _ Matt Shieldheart VI 3.1k Trapper HR _ Matt Shieldheart VII 3.1k Fury SW _ Matt ShieldheartVIII 3.6k OP Justice _ Matt Shieldheart -8 3.1k Healadin _ Matt Shieldheart -9 3.1k Mof Rene CW
Hi im a member of a rank 18 guild. In my experience the real bottleneck in progressing with stronghold were 1) Astral diamonds 2) Surplus items
Farming currencies was annoying as hell too and influence was easy farmable with a bit of sacrifice. i say this because the ads and surplus requirements are extremely high and surplus items are indeed the first way to farm ads. Its like a dog trying to bite its own tail.
It would be nice to have pvp gear as not salvageable gear (so pretty much 0 chance to exploit or to bot it) but able to drop from common pvp matches as reward. it would really help feeding the mimic and give updated reasons to run domination.
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grogthemagnifMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,651Arc User
Already pleased with proposed changes just from reading this post. I see you guys have put our suggestions to make professions more useful to Strongholds into development, which is nice.
Feedback: Major stumbling blocks for the small guild Influence and Dungeoneer Shards can both be tough requirements to meet. Many small guilds rely on members' alts to obtain more resources per person than would otherwise be possible, but the amount of Influence earned per character per day is painfully small compared to the amounts required to accomplish anything, and earning Influence means you are effectively doing nothing else useful for yourself or your guild. I know it's meant to be a progress gate, but the daily caps are brutal and requirements are high. Dungeoneer Shards are kind of the same problem; small guilds tend to hit player burnout long before they can actually meet these requirements. Running multiple alts for resources takes a long time. Dungeoneer Shard shortfalls can be alleviated by buying around the problem, but that should feel like an option rather than a requirement, even in a small guild.
Feedback: Crafting Influence We recognize that the daily Influence caps were designed to be one of the inhibitors for Stronghold progression, to prevent going "too fast". Still, with the amount small guilds have now been left in the dust, and with large guilds also slamming into the Influence wall when they're all set with everything else for their next upgrade(s), it may be worth considering making Influence craftable in Leadership as well. It's a thematic fit - doing charitable work enhances the good will of the people. Leadership is still fairly self-limiting with 3x task caps, glacial levelling progression, and presumably having to make choices between tasks to benefit the Stronghold or yourself (refinement). It has the potential to ease this grind immensely, for guilds of any size.
Feedback: Shard Exchange One proposal players have made a few times is to exchange one type of shard of power for another, at a 2:1 ratio to make it better to run all types of content, but still possible to progress from converting your surplus shards to make up your deficient ones. I have accumulated literally thousands of Heroic and Adventurer Shards totalled across multiple characters that I can't deposit until we empty the coffers, and I keep accumulating them from running content for other needed resources. Can't build a warehouse until we progress much further. I know we're meant to progress the SH by running content, but it's currently possible to run content endlessly and still seemingly get nowhere because you get too much of one thing and not enough of another. I'd also add that trading Shards for Influence could be enormously helpful too. It wouldn't discourage us from playing the game, because all the resources still have to come from playing something, and would be most efficiently earned from their "native" source. But it would make us feel better about everything we do being useful and less locked into particular activities at particular stages regardless of what we actually feel like doing.
Thank you so much for looking at these issues. Means a lot.
Feedback What Becky says is true.
Feedback: Other Stumbling Blocks:
We are a small Guild and the Wood, Metal, Stone and Food coffers, as well as the Gold and sometimes AD are filled up a few days after a build stay at Maximum for weeks and months while the Campaign Currencies - Fey, Frozen, Tyranny & Dark Gifts, as well as Dungeoneering/Conquerors shards and Influence build up slowly to finish a build.
I propose Raising the coffer limits to Gold, Food, Wood, Stone, Metal and AD so that they won’t be idle for weeks at a time . After all, the standard cost for a stronghold is 1 MILLION Gold. Start with NY Guild should be able to build any GH upgrade in 1 month. Each smaller structure should take 2 weeks, regardless of the Guild size. Figure 15-25% active – 1 player in a 5 player Guild, 30 in a 150+ player Guild with 1 alt per active player should be able to do this. As for Wood, Stone, Metal and Food – leave them as they are, but expand the coffer capacity to 50 times the standard daily tend rate to cut down on idle time. As for Gold, figure 2 Gold/ day/active player & alt for 20% of the Guild’s players as coffer capacity (a good player can get 10 Gold/day at level 60, Poor Players have trouble getting 1 Gold/Day over and above costs.) For AD, 1-3 casks/day/character and 0-1 AD/day/character for those who are levelling their characters. The Underdark AD Voucher and the new Professions tasks should help too.
On a Good day 1 player doing 4 Quests (one of which is Rewards for the Hoard) could do 2500 points of donations, but the daily 3 Quest donation is less than 1000 points – a long way from the almost 2 Million needed for Rank 20 Stronghold. And would take a month to finish just 1 coffer if 50 characters contributed daily.
I agree with most of what you are saying, but you are forgetting that most of the smaller guild members don't have maxed out boons.
Meaning you are lucky if a 5 player guild can contribute 1/5th of their daily acquisition.
There are more than BIS players in this game RIP Real Tiamat, RIP Real Demogorgon RIP real Temple of the spider. Why remove non bis content to give to bis players ???? FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)
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grogthemagnifMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,651Arc User
I guess I didn't explain it well enough. I was asking for 2% of output - 10% of 20% of the Guild (the active players + 1alt/player). A 5 player Guild would have 2 characters giving 10% of (and usually more because the active players are the generous ones) A 60 player Guild would have about 25 active characters, a 150 player Guild would have about 60 active characters and a 500 member (grandfathered in) Guild could have 200 active characters.
As to maxed out boons - First you need Guild Rank 20, then you need 1-6 Rank 10 Boon structures (2 PvP, 4 PvE). That's gonna take a while.
As to maxed out boons - First you need Guild Rank 20, then you need 1-6 Rank 10 Boon structures (2 PvP, 4 PvE). That's gonna take a while.
He means that many players in smaller guilds don't have their personal campaign boons, and as such can't reasonably be expected to put in campaign currencies.
adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
Great to get the response from @rgutscheradev but I have one question. If a guild has reached maximum (all possible structures built and at max level), and the coffers are full - how are members supposed to earn guild marks if they cannot donate anything ?
Great to get the response from @rgutscheradev but I have one question. If a guild has reached maximum (all possible structures built and at max level), and the coffers are full - how are members supposed to earn guild marks if they cannot donate anything ?
Am I missing something somewhere ?
This is not a problem for any guild yet, but someday it will be. We've been thinking about it and have some plans in the works.
Comments
Sorry to take so long to get back to you -- things have been a bit hectic for me here. (I just finished a design pitch for something for the *next* module, which is what's been keeping me busy. But the pitch doc is done now. Whew.)
Lots of great feedback, so thanks to everyone for that. Special thanks to beckylunatic, super-detailed and well-thought-out feedback as always.
The viability of some of the profession tasks (gold in particular) is a really good point. It's kind of an interesting situation design-wise, so let me go into it more (skip this paragraph if you don't care how the sausage is made). When we cost these things, there are two pretty different approaches. What I used here was a look at how quickly people earned various things (in this case gold) by playing "normally" -- running around, killing stuff, selling the junk you get. With that math, the amount of gold you get is (more or less -- no claims made for super-accuracy here!) reasonable compared to the other profession tasks, in terms of number of hours of gameplay. But of course as several people have pointed out, there's another way to earn gold -- go on the auction house and buy things like chalices. And that way is *much* more efficient (because mostly people don't have a lot of use for gold, so it sells for cheap in the currency people really care about, namely AD). But we have to be careful on our end -- buying stuff on the auction house will pretty much always be more efficient, because it represents people getting rid of stuff they don't want, or because of botting, or just plain people doing something in the most efficient way possible (the wonders of a market economy -- mostly a good thing!). If we always go after the auction house price, we can wind up chasing our own tail (sending some part of the economy spinning out of control as it gets successively more, or less, expensive). All that said, it's silly to have the two prices be so far out of line. If the gold task isn't the greatest, that's OK, but I think it's too sad right now, so I plan to raise it. Similarly for the gems task.
TL;DR: Raising value of gold and gems tasks. They may not be super-great, but they'll be better. My current plan is x5 for gold and x2 for gems (not a promise, just the current plan).
Good catch on Leadership tiering. That's just a flat-out mistake on my part.
There's been lots of discussion about how it's discouraging to work super-hard and then have the price go down. I understand the pain, I can feel it, but I gotta warn you -- sometimes that kind of thing will happen. In MMOs, there are super-dedicated people who play a ton, and there are people who are more casual. Like any MMO, we want to reward the dedicated people but let the casual people have fun too. One classic way to do that is make something hard or expensive at first, but then gradually make it easier over time. The elite will get there first. But over time, more people will get there. On balance, I think that's a good thing. Also, if we just plain made something too expensive, we should fix that!
Influence: this is definitely something we've been looking at. When we did this whole costing pass, we looked at all the coffers to see which ones were the biggest problem. Influence was not the biggest problem according to our data, but it was definitely one of the tougher ones, and we'll keep watching it. Some things that made us willing to wait and see how it goes were that it's not like AD or gems where you really want to keep it for yourself (the only thing to do with it is give it to the coffer) and it's also very farmable -- if your guild sees it needs influence, it can decide to go out and get more. But if it's an endless and frustrating grind to get more, that's no good, so we need to watch that. The feedback here definitely is making me more suspicious of our influence costs, and I've been conveying that to others on the team.
Again, thanks for all the feedback! It's been a really big help.
1) Let US reach the HE-Cap with 3 SH-HE only. ( 200/100/100 instead of 150/120/75/35/20 ) -> More easy to do with 2 or + characters, no waste of time for peanuts.
2) Move the Boons Structures NPCs in the SH Hall, it take few minutes to go at each NPC, and for a lot of players, it's too much for such a poor influence reward before the tier 4 Quests.
3) Demonic SH-HE are SH-HE yes or not ? But no Influence reward from them -> no interest to do them ( we have to do 9 DHE each day, we will not doing more without real rewards ).
4) Add a Minor (+100) ( or Basic (+200)) Influence Voucher as a systematic reward for Dragonflight Event.
Hello @rgutscheradev
I'm guild leader of a Lv 15 Guild and I would like to give you our feedback. We usually have 20-40 players everyday, very cooperative with their donations and the daily grind. However, there are 3 main things that are not longer fun anymore: Influence, Fey Trinkets and Conqueror's Shards. Firstly, Influence, it is extremely boring to farm the same heroic encounters every day. We have been doing the same thing not only with 1 character but several. We try to farm the HE for 15+ players in order to change the monotony but it's still the same. We want to feel like we are doing certain activities that generates resources that we will be able to contribute to the guild and not like we are supposed to work (like a job) for our guild running the same tedious routine of farming HE again and again.
Farming Sharandar is annoying because it doesn't feel rewarding to spend a lot of time doing daily quests just to deliver a small amount of resources to the mimic.
I'll give you an example: If we want to farm Tyranny we can do Dragon Runs in Well of Dragons or Tiamat, that means that we are also receiving AD after selling some items while doing stuff together as a guild. Same thing in Dread Ring, we are doing the daily lairs and receiving greater marks that we need for our characters or we can also sell them. As you can see, both areas are rewarding and doesn't really feel like a pain at all because you are running content that will benefit your guild and yourself directly.
Regarding to the Conqueror's Shards, we are mainly a PvE guild and we really dislike the fact that if we want one of the best boon structures in the game (barracks) then it is necessary to do PvP. It is simply not right to throw PvE players to PvP when they are just looking for something that they only want to use in PvE. I can understand that you want to encourage the PvP environment by adding more players but I'm sure that most PvP players are looking for quality instead of quantity and I'm not going deeper in this issue, considering that there are a ton of reports written every day by these PvPers. Solving their issues would bring a better PvP life for the whole game and using baits like adding conqueror's shards only for PvP matches won't be necessary anymore. I've already noticed that the new campaign will let us get a few shards but I'm afraid that it will not be enough.
I would like to suggest the following:
* Influence: Let us get influence by doing Heroic Encounters in every map of the game, the amount can be halved so we get the same actual amount if we do it in our strongholds and less in other areas. We are adventurers after all, aren't we supposed to get influence by helping in other zones?. Also, adding Influence to the Dragonflight event, 50 or 100 per dragon killed up to a certain daily limit.
* Sharandar: You could add RP like resonance stones, peridots, aquamarines, etc (not just thaumaturge, this isn't interesting) and a small chance to get a Preservation Ward BoA. Additionally, include in the loot for every lair his respective campaign resource, i.e: If I'm doing Witch Fen then I'll get more Abjuring Charms. In summary, running Sharandar and the lairs will be more interesting because I'll get a direct benefit plus resources for my guild. Getting additional resources won't have a major impact in the campaign because it's gated behind Feywild Sparks.
One more thing, could you please take a look to the Illerfarn Relic and/or the resources given by the Genie's Gift for Sharandar? The amount of resources is very, very low in comparison to the other campaigns and it doesn't make any sense to waste a Genie's Gift in Feywld Sparks or Gold Crescents.
* Conqueror's Shards: It would be great if there's a NPC that allow us to exchange one shard for another, maybe not a 1:1 ratio but that would solve a lot of problems for both PvE and PvP players considering that most of each position are not really interested in participating in both kind of content. PvE players that dislike to PvP will find another way to get Conqueror's and PvP players that don't want to do anything related to PvE will still be able to gather enough shards doing only what they really like to do. Are you guys tracking what are the players doing with their Fangs of the Dragonflight? After some months of killing dragons in the stronghold there's not really much to do with this item besides gearing up alts. Perhaps, you could add vouchers to the Marketplace that we can purchase with Fangs. Starting with Green Vouchers at Market Lv X, then Blue after Lv X and even Major Vouchers after certain Level with a cost of 20, 30, etc Fangs each.
As you can see, each one of these suggestions are based in playing the content that you have created for the players. It is a great idea to feel that almost everything I do in the game generate a contribution to my guild, not forced as an extremely boring grinding but as a way to play helping my guildies and myself at the same time.
Thank you very much for your attention.
It would also be great if every HE would give the same amount of influence. It's just not efficient to do more than three HEs. The ratio of influence to time played just gets to bad.
Thank you for looking at the gems and gold return values.
I would like to echo what other people are saying in having some sort of system to trade shards. a 2:1 ratio or something similar of 2 shards you don't want for 1 shard that you do would go a long ways to helping small guilds that get quickly capped on 1 shard or another but have many thousands they need to grind for of a different shard.
Lazalia (lazaroth666) has some excellent points as well about making the grind more enjoyable or more rewarding. Sharandar really is a horrible place to farm right now. it does reward you with thaumaturgic stones but those are practically useless since stacks of R4 enchants are so abundantly available that no one who does a time/reward analysis would ever go farm thaum stones. they would farm DR for greater marks,sell the marks and get many hundreds of times the RP value by using that AD to buy r4s. I understand you do not wish to balance the game around what is available on the AH (and that is smart) but as it is the reward differences between sharandar and other zones is pretty intense.
And I would like to add a request as well to make the AD coffers from leadership Bind to Account. Right now they are BoP and that means if i would have to get all those alts into my guild one at a time to donate the coffers which is needlessly time consuming and annoying both for myself and my guild leaders whom i have to bother. Making the coffers BoA would solve this issue handily.
Having scaling rewards from dragonflight would also be an awesome thing to have. You can base the rewards off of dragons killed per event (which happens to some extent as to the number of vouchers you get, but i would like to see a visible quality increase as well... or at least know that one is in place) as well as (more importantly) the guild hall level. At some point dragons should stop rewarding green vouchers and only provide blue vouchers, and as the guild level increases from there the drop rate of purple vouchers should increase. Farming dragons at guild hall lv 16 is not nearly as rewarding as it is for a lv 5 guild since the rewards are exactly the same (anecdotal of course) but the costs to upgrade are leagues apart
thanks for your feedback you gave us rgutscheradev
We are searching for slave labor, will pay with food from our farm!
Lots of people chiming in on this, but I want to give some numbers.
My guild is of the very small variety. So, we're still at the stage of needing 126k Influence for the next thing (yes, that's the 4 -> 5 hall upgrade; small guilds, eh?). Divide that by 400 and you get 315 character days. Not a big deal if your guild is so large you're always at the limit, right? If 50 accounts run HEs on 2 characters each, you can be done in a little more than 3 days. Yay, that was easy! (Until you get to higher tiers and it just never stops and everyone is fed up and wants to vomit at the thought of doing another HE.)
Take into account that diminishing returns on Influence/HE make it really inefficient to get the full 400 daily. Getting 345 and stopping is sensible, or push it to 380 because that should get you to 100 enemies slain. That doesn't hurt the big guilds much, because they've got so many members that someone can do a bit more and it makes up for someone else doing a bit less, and all of it is no big deal. It has a snowball effect on slowing down the small ones even more, because every little bit of everything that you don't put in the coffer today adds up to more days of not getting anywhere.
Try doing this with fewer than 10 people. It's possible to push more alts through the SH HE gauntlet, but say it takes 15 minutes per character to do 3 of them. So say you run it with 5 characters. You just spent more than an hour doing an activity that gets you nothing but Influence and a handful of RP and maybe a few other things to cram into the coffer, and that's your gaming time for the day and you got 1725 Influence, no AD, no significant amounts of campaign currency or surplus equipment, and you didn't really get to do anything fun either. Your guildies don't even all have 5 characters, or not ones that can do the HEs, so the burden of Influence falls on even fewer human beings. Divide 315 character days by 15 characters and you get 21 days, if all 15 characters pull their full load each and every day. They probably won't, because people get sick of it and it's not fair to ask them to turn their hobby into a job. They'll just burn out. Burning out on the last guild hall upgrade is why we're only halfway to our next Influence requirement 3 or 4 months down the road, between that and the immediacy of needing this campaign currency and that one for each production structure upgrade that was also required. We can only do so much in a day. All of these activities take time.
At any rate, character days is a very important unit of measure for Influence costs. There's no other use for the item, and you can farm it within the daily limits, but getting it requires participating in a tedious activity that excludes all other in-game goals. It isn't just onerous for small guilds. Big guilds have suffered plenty of member burnout on this front too.
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I know it had the ultimate effect of making the structure missions feel like they weren't worth it at all. Considering the ever-increasing requirements for Influence by the time a guild actually gets access to them, and the fact that we really can't do everything every day because that way lies madness, I don't think it would hurt to restore their old value without removing anything from HEs. At the very least, it would provide some variety in how to obtain Influence. I still think that crafting it, and trading shards for it are all worth considering, because it's required for at least the next 3 things I want to build or upgrade, and with the current structure, this is a painful prospect.
You're trying to give us a fun game we want to keep playing, not kill us.
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(Edit: In a nutshell, why people don't spend more time in Foundry quests.)
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Influence and AD is what has been worrying me the most as a guild leader of a medium (now) sized guild. Influence is really like going to work again instead of having some fun/relax when you come home. I'm not pushing too much on Influence on newest member cause i don't want them to reach the burn-out , i and other few, felt doing it every day with multiple chars (10+ myself) only cause the requirement are insane. Actually i can't do it more than twice a day, it really makes me sick.
I think that only one task available at time for Leadership coffer generation is not good; remove that cap and give us the possibility to do 3 tasks at time.
Matt Shieldheart 3.5k GF Conq PVE _ Matt Shieldheart 0 3.5k GF Tactician PVE _ Matt Shieldheart II 4.1k Buffer DC _ Matt Shieldheart III 4.3k Thauma CW _ Matt Shieldheart IV 3.5k Exe TR _ Matt Shieldheart V 3.9k Destroyer GWF _ Matt Shieldheart VI 3.1k Trapper HR _ Matt Shieldheart VII 3.1k Fury SW _ Matt ShieldheartVIII 3.6k OP Justice _ Matt Shieldheart -8 3.1k Healadin _ Matt Shieldheart -9 3.1k Mof Rene CW
Hi im a member of a rank 18 guild. In my experience the real bottleneck in progressing with stronghold were
1) Astral diamonds
2) Surplus items
Farming currencies was annoying as hell too and influence was easy farmable with a bit of sacrifice. i say this because the ads and surplus requirements are extremely high and surplus items are indeed the first way to farm ads. Its like a dog trying to bite its own tail.
It would be nice to have pvp gear as not salvageable gear (so pretty much 0 chance to exploit or to bot it) but able to drop from common pvp matches as reward.
it would really help feeding the mimic and give updated reasons to run domination.
Feedback: Other Stumbling Blocks:
We are a small Guild and the Wood, Metal, Stone and Food coffers, as well as the Gold and sometimes AD are filled up a few days after a build stay at Maximum for weeks and months while the Campaign Currencies - Fey, Frozen, Tyranny & Dark Gifts, as well as Dungeoneering/Conquerors shards and Influence build up slowly to finish a build.
I propose Raising the coffer limits to Gold, Food, Wood, Stone, Metal and AD so that they won’t be idle for weeks at a time . After all, the standard cost for a stronghold is 1 MILLION Gold. Start with NY Guild should be able to build any GH upgrade in 1 month. Each smaller structure should take 2 weeks, regardless of the Guild size. Figure 15-25% active – 1 player in a 5 player Guild, 30 in a 150+ player Guild with 1 alt per active player should be able to do this.
As for Wood, Stone, Metal and Food – leave them as they are, but expand the coffer capacity to 50 times the standard daily tend rate to cut down on idle time. As for Gold, figure 2 Gold/ day/active player & alt for 20% of the Guild’s players as coffer capacity (a good player can get 10 Gold/day at level 60, Poor Players have trouble getting 1 Gold/Day over and above costs.) For AD, 1-3 casks/day/character and 0-1 AD/day/character for those who are levelling their characters. The Underdark AD Voucher and the new Professions tasks should help too.
On a Good day 1 player doing 4 Quests (one of which is Rewards for the Hoard) could do 2500 points of donations, but the daily 3 Quest donation is less than 1000 points – a long way from the almost 2 Million needed for Rank 20 Stronghold. And would take a month to finish just 1 coffer if 50 characters contributed daily.
I agree with most of what you are saying, but you are forgetting that most of the smaller guild members don't have maxed out boons.
Meaning you are lucky if a 5 player guild can contribute 1/5th of their daily acquisition.
RIP Real Tiamat, RIP Real Demogorgon RIP real Temple of the spider. Why remove non bis content to give to bis players ????
FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base
Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)
As to maxed out boons - First you need Guild Rank 20, then you need 1-6 Rank 10 Boon structures (2 PvP, 4 PvE). That's gonna take a while.
The title says it all.
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Am I missing something somewhere ?