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Scourge Warlock is too weak

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  • jessieflorajessieflora Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 21 Arc User
    Say what you like about "getting a better build". There is no build that saves the SW Temptation. I wanted a more interesting class, not another straight DPS. Not strong enough to contribute either useful heals or damage. Weak Temp Lock feats - life steal changes ruined Temp Lock.

    Sad really but SW has simply been left to rot for some months. Guess it's our turn .. GF, DC, GWF have all had their turn in the past.
  • halaszsandorhalaszsandor Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    Sad really but SW has simply been left to rot for some months. Guess it's our turn .. GF, DC, GWF have all had their turn in the past.
    SW is keep having "their turn" since mod4. Wrongly calculated TT, major income for farming WOD dragons in fabled set. Bugged soul puppet. Big dmg in eCC/TOS.

  • MiseryMisery Member Posts: 146 Arc User
    Sad really but SW has simply been left to rot for some months. Guess it's our turn .. GF, DC, GWF have all had their turn in the past.
    SW is keep having "their turn" since mod4. Wrongly calculated TT, major income for farming WOD dragons in fabled set. Bugged soul puppet. Big dmg in eCC/TOS.
    Key word is bugged. Also, monstrous ticks is thanks to some buffs comming from DCs and renegade cuntroll wizards.

    3.8k PvP SW.
  • drkbodhidrkbodhi Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,378 Arc User
    If it is going to be balanced it is naked with basic weapons.​​
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  • btfdbtfd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 177 Arc User
    SW really need some work. My main is 2.8k ilvl and I have no problems - I can do mostly everything on my own with like 20-25% life steal(in fight), but my friends SW is at 2.1 and can't even do all boon dailies solo. She asked me to try because I know how to play SW but no chance... At this level dps sucks and life steal is not really noticeable. Remember at this level developers think you may be able to clear a t2... SWs dps in dungeons is very dependent on situation. A Gwf can run from one trash mob to another clearing it in seconds, but with the right use of skills (not talking about elol set, iliyanbruen, fey touched nor puppet - just the right use of your powers) I managed to out dps our 4k ilvl TR who is really a monster.
    Basically I think lower ilvl warlocks should get some help, otherwise they won't make it to the state of having no real problems in 2.5+ area and there should be more dungeons designed in a way SW can show his power.

  • ghoulz66ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
    The base power of the SW is beyond bad. They're too reliant on TT spam, fury bugs and puppets. Roll as a templocke and just see how weak they are. New players don't know all these cheap tricks that the pros make use of. I don't even know what the hell they're doing to do such high damage.

    When a templocke of equal ilvl does less damage on paingiver than a righteous DC when they're the one giving the SW a 50% damage boost, something is wrong.
  • regenerderegenerde Member Posts: 3,048 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    Well, even with those last changes to the "difficulty", i'm not going to torture myself with playing my SW.
    IL is 1.9k and even Dread Ring is still a pain to play through... back to invoking and running profession tasks only.
    I do believe in killing the messenger...
    Want to know why?
    Because it sends a message!
  • btfdbtfd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 177 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    ghoulz66 wrote: »
    They're too reliant on TT spam. [...] New players don't know all these cheap tricks that the pros make use of.

    This is why there are so many players complaining about it and why a small group of (experienced) players say SW is alright. I am using the Mod 6 [SW] Soul Madness Build one of our former guild leaders created before he left the game. This explains very good how to do great DPS without dubious sets like elol / iliyanbruen, buggy feytouched or puppet. For me it works fine. Bad thing is to really shine in dps you sometimes have to know what you have to do and how you do it.

  • ghoulz66ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
    btfd wrote: »
    ghoulz66 wrote: »
    They're too reliant on TT spam. [...] New players don't know all these cheap tricks that the pros make use of.

    This is why there are so many players complaining about it and why a small group of (experienced) players say SW is alright. I am using the Mod 6 [SW] Soul Madness Build one of our former guild leaders created before he left the game. This explains very good how to do great DPS without dubious sets like elol / iliyanbruen, buggy feytouched or puppet. For me it works fine. Bad thing is to really shine in dps you sometimes have to know what you have to do and how you do it.

    A puppet... yeah...

    Until puppet is fixed, and SW is buffed all across the board temptation is 100% unviable for parties. The damage the SW deals without damnation's puppet or bugged killing flames from fury is VERY bad. It is BEYOND bad! Even an oppressor CW would laugh.
  • ghoulz66ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
    ghoulz66 wrote: »
    btfd wrote: »
    ghoulz66 wrote: »
    They're too reliant on TT spam. [...] New players don't know all these cheap tricks that the pros make use of.

    This is why there are so many players complaining about it and why a small group of (experienced) players say SW is alright. I am using the Mod 6 [SW] Soul Madness Build one of our former guild leaders created before he left the game. This explains very good how to do great DPS without dubious sets like elol / iliyanbruen, buggy feytouched or puppet. For me it works fine. Bad thing is to really shine in dps you sometimes have to know what you have to do and how you do it.

    A puppet... yeah...

    Until puppet is fixed, and SW is buffed all across the board temptation is 100% unviable for parties. The damage the SW deals without damnation's puppet or bugged killing flames from fury is VERY bad. It is BEYOND bad! Even an oppressor CW would laugh. How the holy hell is it fair that a CW or trapper HR can deal way better damage out of the bag without depending on wonky dailies and other things. Is the SW a class only meant for pro gamers that can figure out all it's cheap workarounds?

  • cizkejkcizkejk Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    For now, if you wanna play PvE SW with max dps, you can depend only on Soulbinder - damnation. Thanks to soul puppet. I get up to 1.8mil dmg in one hit because of the puppet (maybe some buffs from GFs also :P) and i dont p2w and i dont have best gear. You can check my videos i post playing my SW (she is my main) My channel.
    Ofcourse sw need some taking care of, because other path are not ok. In mod5 i had temptation and with life steal back then, you could heal yourself, now you die instantly.
    I only play sw, so if they ruin it, i will stop playing the game.
    ♡ red@cizkejk ♡ The Holy Crusaders ♡ owlbear owner ♡

  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited October 2015
    You talk about damnation locks, their puppet deals up to 50%of the overall damage beeing bugged
    Solo they s.uck, my GWF clears content 4times faster
  • klangeddinklangeddin Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 882 Arc User
    edited October 2015
    This is in the wrong section of the forum. It should be on PvP, which is where Warlocks truly suffer. In PvE they still seem to be able to put out a decent amount of damage from a safe distance (but then again maybe they are using a bug that allows them to be competitive and without it they'd suffer terribly in PvE as well, I don't know). Maybe their vampirism tree could use a rework into something else.

    But overall, yeah, I wouldn't disagree with a buff to the warlocks.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited October 2015
    It's a bit complexto understand if you do not play the class
    Fury build deals solid damage nothing more
    Every other damage class can deal same damage or better in most cases
    At high GS the build improves according to what ppl say at 2-3k GS it performs mediocre nothing more
    Damnation build has a broken puppet
    Wrath claw deals up to over 1 Million Spike damage per hit only inT2 dungeon due to buffs esp from GF
    Solo the puppet deals 10k +/-
    Going HE's in WoD is really no fun, you even can't deal with some dailies
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    I use soulbinder fury PvP build and can do pretty much everything so far at 2k iLvL, using T1 PvP gear actually and mulhorand weapon+ green artifact. Weapon enchant is a cheap fire enchant.

    Rotation: i start with Warlock Bargain on the first toon i want to kill in the bunch, to mitigate the incoming damage. Dread theft on bunch of mobs allows me to build up sparks fast. Mix up shadow slip around using the speed passive (don't remember the name) till i have maxed sparks. Once sparks are maxed i WB again, and melee with secondary at-will to build up extra armor (ruin). Killing Flames as nuke to finish the mobs and spawn a puppet.

    Key is, basically, WB to mitigate the initial damage and give time to build up sparks. Get rid of squishier damage dealing mobs first to further reduce the incoming damage. First stat you focus on is not ArP but Crit and then ArP. Crit both helps your DPS and builds up sparks fast.

    Slot the "Days" passive that heals you when you build up sparks and there you go. Enough survivability for Dread Ring and Sharandar and ToD. You complete the boons in DR and Sharandar, gear up a bit through Gauntlgrym to get T1 PvP armor for HP pool (or even T2 armor, takes a bit longer), or get SH armors if you can. Get the boons from normal ToD campaign then go to WoD and Icewind dale, plus start running some T1/skirmishes to build up some piece of PvE gear.

    Save AD and buy Lostmauth neck and belt (very cheap) then start saving for the horn.

    And so on. BTW i'm doing dread ring and sharandar solo campaign at 2003 iLvL and i rarely die unless i lure too many mobs on me. Must be careful cause SW is very squishy, but i have no real problems going through the campaigns.

    I don't even use TT as daily, i use hardar breed (lets me keep sparks and deals nice damage).

    I tried multiple rotation, found out that WB is basically the key to survive the initial wave of damage from groups of mobs.

  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,564 Arc User

    This is in the wrong section of the forum. It should be on PvP, which is where Warlocks truly suffer. In PvE they still seem to be able to put out a decent amount of damage from a safe distance (but then again maybe they are using a bug that allows them to be competitive and without it they'd suffer terribly in PvE as well, I don't know). Maybe their vampirism tree could use a rework into something else.

    But overall, yeah, I wouldn't disagree with a buff to the warlocks.

    Geared warlocks in epic dungeons are fine in the DPS department, but yeah, let's just say the damage is not coming from a regular source. DPS should stay the same but be moved to actual encounters, and the class in PvE would work in group.
    For solo play you use WB as i described above.
    Might buff vampiric touch for more variety or for those who want to add more survivability. Right now the power is nice but kinda too weak...
  • flowcytoflowcyto Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 196 Arc User
    edited October 2015
    If stuff like TT and Damnation's puppet spike dmg have to be greatly nerfed to be able to buff practically everything else, then let it happen I say. From my newer-player perspective, this class seems to be extremely lopsided in its power distribution atm.

    My lvl 70 SB+Fury SW solos just fine now, thanks to a fine-tuned build and Borrowed Time. Dps isn't great compared to some of my other toons, but it fares decent enough. The lvl 70 HB SW I have, though.. even w/ Damnation its a PITA to solo with (fine w/ puppet up or near; terrible if not). Both SWs have ~1.8-2k ilvl. Spitfire's dmg aura being active when the puppet is out-of-combat is also annoying as f-, and I wish that was changed.

    edit: also tried Tempt for a while (have every class to and played at 70 by now, some multiples of) and I just had to spec out of it. I just couldn't get it to perform well vs. my other toons. HAMSTER dmg (even w/ a gamut of dps powers- R4 HoB + WB, KF, DT or BotVA), a capstone that is half-tied to a weak power (VE) and gives no personal benefit, and unreliable support which doesn't measure up to a DC or OP. Dark Revelry and Compounded Soul seem to be pretty neat for groups, but ya dun have to be full Tempt for them either.
    Post edited by flowcyto on
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  • lazaroth666lazaroth666 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,332 Arc User
    Specifically talking about PvE, the SW isn't so bad as most people believe. It does requires a bit of understanding about the mechanics of every class and knowing how to deal dmg, when to do it and some other factors. I'm not even talking about using puppet and legacy sets (which I find pathetic btw), just using a Fury build with the right setup is more than enough in order to be a very decent dmg dealer. Complaining is always easier than testing.
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  • fuglymookfuglymook Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 119 Arc User
    edited October 2015
    The SWs I run with (Trendkill, Fenru, MAB, Connor, ect) are all killing it and they all have different specs and play styles but what separates them from the others is they know their HAMSTER when it comes to playing a SW. When something works they roll with it and when things change they make the needed adjustments. The SW is a dps class, use whatever path, encounter, daily, and enchant that give you the most dps. Crying that one of your trees/path is useless is just silly as every class has a weak path/tree to deal with. Every MOD brings new changes and you have to adapt. The SW is far from weak, you just have to play it a bit different than you were in previous MODS. I have a 3k SW and have no troubles.

    Comparing a SW to a GWF is ridiculous. If a GWF came to the forums and bitched about not being able to do good dps from ranged like a SW they would be flamed. A SW can instant kill half the mobs in a group from range with killing flame or fiery bolt. A GWF has better survivability because they are melee with heavy armor, big HAMSTER weapon, and unstoppable. Not every GWF does massive amounts of damage just because they are a GWF. Learn your class and practice on the test server different builds for free.
  • ghoulz66ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
    fuglymook said:

    The SWs I run with (Trendkill, Fenru, MAB, Connor, ect) are all killing it and they all have different specs and play styles but what separates them from the others is they know their HAMSTER when it comes to playing a SW. When something works they roll with it and when things change they make the needed adjustments. The SW is a dps class, use whatever path, encounter, daily, and enchant that give you the most dps. Crying that one of your trees/path is useless is just silly as every class has a weak path/tree to deal with. Every MOD brings new changes and you have to adapt. The SW is far from weak, you just have to play it a bit different than you were in previous MODS. I have a 3k SW and have no troubles.

    Blah blah blah, same old excuse. If maxed out players can do good damage in dungeons then the class is fine.

    Open your ears. Many are lower geared and complaining about how weak the class is while playing solo content where the class suffers horribly.

  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited October 2015

    Specifically talking about PvE, the SW isn't so bad as most people believe. It does requires a bit of understanding about the mechanics of every class and knowing how to deal dmg, when to do it and some other factors. I'm not even talking about using puppet and legacy sets (which I find pathetic btw), just using a Fury build with the right setup is more than enough in order to be a very decent dmg dealer. Complaining is always easier than testing.

    Since you play GWF and warlock at BIS level you know the difference i guess?
    Did you ever face a warlock that beat you in T2 or T1 dungeons, or even any other class?
    How big is the difference running eCC and eTOS , talking about furylock vs GWF?
    Most classes do have PVE builds who deal good dps, Hunter, TR, CW definitely can spec into dps and perform very nice, because I met some of them running random dungeons

    the one and only reason warlock can deal damage to mobgroups is AP gain+ TT
    skip that daily and run any dungeon, you will feal very sad afterwards
    on singel target warlock can do good in case you have high crit, spamming SS
    but gear is needed

    solopay is poor compared to other classes like GWF/DC
    f.e. WoD, the task with that wolf following you? I hate it....the moment the mobs are down , the spot to dig disappeared lots of times
    going there with a pure PVP specced GWF its puf puf all dead in seconds, "get the bone, good dog"

    btw wich 3k+ fury lock can meet me ingame and run one T1 and T2, I really want to see that damage and pray for good performance, since I want to respec some day to fury
    I run damnation hybrid PVE/PVP build atm
  • gomok72gomok72 Member Posts: 616 Arc User
    edited October 2015
    zeusom said:

    I am 4000 IL fury warlock and have played SW since the class launched last year.

    A 2000 IL GWF put up higher damage in a dungeon than I did today.

    Warlock is worst class in PvP and PvE.

    I would say something on here, but then Myrtaal would say that my anger is not warranted and I'm just bitching/ sarcasm off.

    In other news today, a 4k IL Warlock was killed and out dpsed by a 3.1 IL GWF several times in PvP/PvE (I feel your pain Sophi.).

    I don't trust the developers and we all know as long time players that they will not buff SW where they need to be in order to be just as viable as other classes. If they do they will be the new FoTM class (people will stop playing Paladins/Clerics and TR), not to mention they will finally make a scrip that's just as effective for us as it is as CCing HR and Bursting CW.

    When they have "FIX" SW and make all lines viable to play I'll have something good to say, but until then either play another class, game or just put your SW on the back burner until Mod 8 hits "hopefully they won't HAMSTER that up to."
    I

    I may not be considered by most the BEST PVP Warlock on the server but, I am the most HATED amongst them.

    -Kymos
  • rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    A 3k gwf right now is out dps ed just by a 3k+ gwf. Thats nit really a right comparison to do
  • fuglymookfuglymook Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 119 Arc User
    ghoulz66 said:

    fuglymook said:

    The SWs I run with (Trendkill, Fenru, MAB, Connor, ect) are all killing it and they all have different specs and play styles but what separates them from the others is they know their HAMSTER when it comes to playing a SW. When something works they roll with it and when things change they make the needed adjustments. The SW is a dps class, use whatever path, encounter, daily, and enchant that give you the most dps. Crying that one of your trees/path is useless is just silly as every class has a weak path/tree to deal with. Every MOD brings new changes and you have to adapt. The SW is far from weak, you just have to play it a bit different than you were in previous MODS. I have a 3k SW and have no troubles.

    Blah blah blah, same old excuse. If maxed out players can do good damage in dungeons then the class is fine.

    Open your ears. Many are lower geared and complaining about how weak the class is while playing solo content where the class suffers horribly.

    If you saw, I have a right on the nose 3k SW with all rank 8s slotted and am having no problem anywhere, you actually have to use more than 2 encounters all the time when going solo. 2K and below every class struggles when they hit Spinward Rise and the lvl 70 areas that is why you have to improve your gear and item lvl at that point by getting dungeon gear or pvp gear and get to 2500 item lvl. It is called progressing.....
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited October 2015
    Fuglymook pls meat me ingame, we do a dungeon of your choice
    I really would like to see a fury lock out DPS ing anyone in T2
    That would be the moment I respec but I fear it is only a subjective perspective you got about the class?
    Quallo , its my ingame name
    Would be nice thx in advance
    Let's add a 3k GWF and run some stuff
  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    I'd just add that it's GWF with the Laz's crit build+eLoL set that "jumps ahead" in terms of DPS.
    Cause eLoL set performs much better on that build due to highest weapon damage and crit chance that gets insanely high (Lazalia in between 90-100% and might get up to 100% during the fight, if i remember well).

    If eLoL set is fixed, i believe the DPS field would even out more between GWF and SW. SW needs DPS moved to other sources too.

    But as others mentioned before, eLoL set plays a huge role. I don't use it and Quallo can confirm my DPS in PvE are far from being overpowered. I keep up with PvE GWFs without eLoL set. When eLoL set kicks in, GWFs fly far, far away on the paingiver chart. Even at non-BiS levels of gear, just need to use the "critical focus" to reach a decent enough crit chance. Weapon master passive and there you go.

    Being eLoL set based on weapon damage, and being the GWF weapon the one with highest damage by far, i think it's easy to see where the first fix should be applied.
    I'd fix the set, then see how it goes and then proceed with class balance.

    We've reports of 500k+ eLoL set procs...should be taken into account, no?

  • flowcytoflowcyto Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 196 Arc User
    Eh, even if I don't really agree w/ the 'l2p' crowd, I wouldn't go so far on the other side saying its all terrible at the lower end. Again, one of my SWs does perfectly fine solo w/o using Damnation, TT, or a bugged gear set- if I have to step back and compare it to all my other similarly geared toons at the same spot in progression. Its just that the other SW's solo options are limited due to HB giving up a huge self-healing option. For low-end or solo players, where survival and self-sufficiency are more prevalent issues, giving up that self-healing is a large opportunity cost that the rest of the options presented to HB SWs don't sufficiently substitute for, imo.

    Every class is objectively going to have 'weaker' options; I think the argument is that even the SW's weak options are moreso than for other classes. I don't struggle to solo as much, for ex, on my Combat or Archery HRs (though admittedly much of that is tied to R4 CoA/PG's added burst dps and utility), or the TR I have that mostly uses the ranged attacks for theme. I consider Devotion to be the weaker option for soloing OP's, but I sure as damn hell didn't have issues soloing as a Devo OP, etc..
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  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited October 2015
    OK let's try something else I already wrote to get a bit more light in the dark
    Run a dungeon without TT to see how heavily warlock depends to one Daily

    I do compare warlock vs my DC and GWF in solo content, the class i am most used to is warlock
    The class that is PVP geared 2.3k GS and is 3x faster even though warlock got lolset p vorp an 2.8kk GS and 11.000 crit , 8k arp is .... GWF, who never dies, melts through mobs
    DC 2.3k going DG+DL+chains or SB is a nobrainer can tank HE's in WOD and kills mobgroups pretty fast, single damage is poor so

    Fury btw levels faster than damnation, Puppet does not help that much
  • neuroticnekoneuroticneko Member Posts: 85 Arc User
    ogarious said:



    flyingleon wrote: »

    Some setup of Sw do 'best' damage in PVE. Try class forum, some may help you.


    Those are the high end SW's, people sporting rank 12's, mythic gear, or are using the soul puppet/damnation exploit.



    Honestly, a SW in rank 12s is about as good as any other class in rank 7's or 8's.





    Disagree here, I'm only sporting Rank 7s, not even high end, my item score on Jadis almost at 2.4K yet she can do decent damage in ECC. I admit I use damnation because it works for me, no mythic gear on my SW, at most purple and few blues.
    Jadis 25K Level 80 Warlock; Cassandra.. Wizard; work in progress.
  • ogariousogarious Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 740 Arc User

    Some setup of Sw do 'best' damage in PVE. Try class forum, some may help you.

    Due to a exploit in combination with either a cleric or Paladin ability, yes. But outside of that, they aren't horrible. But they aren't where they should be either. And add to that a lack of a working avoidance mechanic and low defenses, and yeah.

    A CW in rank 5's with blue gear can out damage and survive in both PvE and PvP better then my SW in legendary gear with rank 9s and 10s.

This discussion has been closed.