If lightning reflexes is ruined like super reflexes was by the global defense nerf in city of heroes I will not be happy.You guys need to learn from past mistakes and add harder new content that is rewarding and worth playing rather than nerf. It was the same problem cox had in it's earlier days and eventually the dev teamed learned and they learned the hard way.
If lightning reflexes is ruined like super reflexes was by the global defense nerf in city of heroes I will not be happy.You guys need to learn from past mistakes and add harder new content that is rewarding and worth playing rather than nerf. It was the same problem cox had in it's earlier days and eventually the dev teamed learned and they learned the hard way.
IT'S A BUG! IT'S A FREAKING BUG! What part of that aren't you folks getting?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
[thread=139701]My old, old guide for Ego Blades. Updated for On: Alert.[/thread]
[thread=154211]The Costume Contest Schedule. Stay up-to-date without having to log in![/thread]
If lightning reflexes is ruined like super reflexes was by the global defense nerf in city of heroes I will not be happy.You guys need to learn from past mistakes and add harder new content that is rewarding and worth playing rather than nerf. It was the same problem cox had in it's earlier days and eventually the dev teamed learned and they learned the hard way.
Makes me wonder. Is there a way they could have gear/mods work better with specific sets and not as much with others?
Example...Heroic Breastplate of Agility w/ 2 Lucky Gems would give a Dodge Based Passive better returns than one that wasn't?
So an INV/Regen/AoPM/PFF could stack some dodge, but not as well as a LR/Quarry/WotW/NW (only sets that I could think of that were dodge based).
"Oh look! LR can hit 95/95 dodge/avoid and feel like they're actually dodging! INV...not so much!" (numbers made up).
Put something in the code that says "When this passive is slotted, mods work this well"
There just isn't a reason LR shouldn't work as well as it does now. It's not INV getting dodge up to LR levels (and with just LR and gear...Legion with Rank 8 LG...I was hitting 70% dodge)...
Probably the part where it looks like they still want to nerf it, just not as bad as it is on PTS now?
What part of that don't you get?
I think they get it fine, it's at least half of this thread saying dodge is perfectly reasonable right now.
Although, there's no point in me even stating this, as it's not going to sway anyones opinion. Sage gave a superb explanation as he always does, but, unfortunately, it probably falls on deaf ears.
So, I'll just sit here with my cup, and collect tears to later relish with glee. :biggrin:
I think they get it fine, it's at least half of this thread saying dodge is perfectly reasonable right now.
Although, there's no point in me even stating this, as it's not going to sway anyones opinion. Sage gave a superb explanation as he always does, but, unfortunately, it probably falls on deaf ears.
So, I'll just sit here with my cup, and collect tears to later relish with glee. :biggrin:
Well, as a LR user who switched to Quarry. I'll just say I switched to Quarry because I saw a good increase in damage and hardly any change in survivability. Since Quarry feels like LR with more damage...it stayed within my mains concept.
making things harder to solo is not the way to get people to team UNLESS the mechanics are set up in a certain way. also open world content should not change as that kind of content is what is most often soloed.
Are you still going on about this? I'm sure 1/4 of the comments on here are yours just saying almost the same thing over and over. The problem is with the state at the moment is that you can get 70% dodge chance AND high health (about 12k - 14k or even more) AND about 80% resistance to all damage AND 100% crit severity to make heals heal for loads AND high base heals so on crit it heals for a crazy amount while still being able to hit high damage and fly through content. Do you not see the problem with all that?
Everyone keeps saying, they need to fix the passives that give dodge on the PTS at the moment... Yes, they do. ALTHOUGH they certainly need to bring it down from what it is and somehow make it so you can't go that high on dodge while not even sacrificing anything for the dodge.
I haven't been able to get on the game to test anything because of my new crappy Internet, but I know that what ever is happening isn't good.
I've read about the sudden tweak to the mechanics and I see that dodge is the one being effected the most. I'm not very worried about this because after all might I remind you that it's in the PTS after all and it requires much test. I know why they attempt to "mess around" with the dodge- I'm not happy about it but I know it needs some type of decreese. It's kinda crazy you can stack that stuff to high numbers with not much effort and that in my eyes is not fair- many of you may disagree but right now that's not the point. In order to make the defense And offense more usefull they'll need to do something to dodge, dodge is not everything in a build and having defense and offense in your stat bar posted in small cute letters will not do. It needs to be usefull at somepoint in battle. Balance in the fighting mechanism is key to more possibilities for builds.
I know that now all of this is out of order and not working but give it time, it's a test after all. Instead of raging at the devs and writing the same thing over and over again, the best you can do is hope and test. Once again.... it's just a TEST, give them time to get it right. I really think that the devs are listening.
I know I've gone ballistic about them not fixing stuff or making lame or useless content before but now they're really trying.
If you love this game you'll understand that this is a step it needs to take so it can progress. Content is important but not as important as a balance in our fighting mechanism .
I am going to ignore everything between my original post and this current post.
After a few different quick tests, PTS Offense is on the same layer as the other multiplicative values and it is added directly onto them for calculation purposes. Sad that it isn't on its own layer but then again maybe that is for the best.
Will I use it? No. Between how poorly it scales and the fact that I could have gotten critical strike instead, Offense is..just..meh at worst and eh at best but that is my opinion.
Upon further reflection: At least it isn't additive anymore!
PS. Gradii: stop talking like as if everyone should agree with you- not everyone thinks like you ( I certainly don't). All of us have a different point of view in this. Some may agree with you but that necessarily doesn't mean everyone does. All you've been doing is reciting the same thing over and over again and that is getting annoying and most certainly won't get you nowhere. Instead of raging why don't you look for a more usefull sollution to the dilema that doesn't require content content content . Atleast try :rolleyes:
Taking a look at the numbers I saw in PTS vs. Live... Crit Chance, Severity, and Avoidance all adjusted a small amount overall. Dodge was the only one that drastically changed. I really think we should all wait until the Devs are back at work and can respond, but my guess is that the calculation for Dodge was mistyped or the like.
If Dodge was adjusted more similar to how Crit Chance was adjusted (for me, Crit Chance fell to about 80% of the value on Live), then I don't think this adjustment would be something we all need to drastically rebuild for. My Live Dodge value was 51%, so 80% of that would be 40.6%. It'd be a "nerf" I could easily live with, and I think most of us could.
Why do I say if Dodge fell like Crit Chance? Because my Crit Strike and Avoidance fell within similar percentages. So I'm taking a guess that Dodge should have dropped similar to Crit Chance.
Global nerf or not, dodge will be changed but IMHO this isn't the best way to do it. I suggest for them to start from the beginning- for them to take small humble steps.
Maybe instead of lowering the dodge rating by what?? 75% why not a much lower percentage, at least start at 10% and make your way up slowly till you find the right one. And if we loose some dodge then make this offense and defense stuff be worth it.
I'm still not going to go at it much till we get more info onto what will they actually do after all of you guy's feedback and ideas.
Adding new content isn't going to make the proposed hit to dodge magically not be as bad as the current math is suggesting it will be. Even if this non-existent new content brought with it a level cap raise, the way the curve we're looking at here works, in it's current form, would still leave dodge in a bad place; LR would still be in the same bad shape.
I'd say the same about you. there will always be people who break the system dodge nerf or not. this is just an example of the L33T builders wrecking the game for casual players. new content avoids that trap.
That doesn't happen all the time and you know very well. Content isn't going to fix everything.
I'm not going to continue to talk to you because you'll just keep on saying " hue duh! Don't touch dodge, add more content! Ehmahgerd!!! Content will fix everything" just like you've done in every page of this post. But you go ahead, After all we are intitled to post our opinions. And yours is just one over mine and hundreds.
I'm fine with dodge being fixed. the question is how we fix it. a new DR curve is just gonna cause too many problems. its been mentioned we cap it unless MD is used. havent you even read that? because you sure are acting like you havent.
Well if I remember currently it use to be done based on the charge time / activate time of the powers used against you. Would you say this was a better system while also dodge was much harder to get hold of as well.
You seem to think that this is stopping customization but the entire idea in why they are doing this is to balance dodge out with things such as defence or growth when slotted into your gear. Remember that this is only in testing, the fact it is so extreme at the moment doesn't mean that much as long as they tone the curve down a little bit and also make sure LR isn't as effected. Quarry is just fine, it is an offensive passive where you get the same or more as other offensive passive damage wise while also being able to 97% dodge chance which is stupid.
plenty of players have many dodge centric toons. show me a player with more than 10 characters (I have 40) who doesn't have at least 1 dodge themed toon. this is a bad idea. period.
I'd point myself out as one. A page and a half of characters, not a single one uses dodge or avoidance. And know what? I've managed just fine.
Except before spec trees and significant baked-in defense on gear, people were able to run offensive passives just fine. Even the nebulous "theme" builds that everyone's throwing out there as completely incapable of doing anything without having dodge/avoid stacked from gear.
Even Quarry and Way of the Warrior.
The enemies haven't gotten appreciably stronger since then, except in a few edge cases involving Alerts where you're literally forced to have other players with you.
Offensive passives don't "require" additional dodge stacked on top to work. Period. Even if it's a "theme" build. Otherwise no one would have ever leveled/used any character with them before the On Alert changes enabled you to do so without a major hit to your stats.
Agreed.
Players were running offensive passives without a problem going all of the way back to launch. Anyone else remember when Quarry was an energy management passive ? Fireform, Shadowform, Ego Form, Ice Form, we used them all. We ran offensive passives when our damage output was not enhanced by every possible build having a toggle and specializations and the gear to boost DPS even further. People were running offensive passive themed builds with less damage than many defensive or even support builds can maintain now without a problem.
If you took all dodge stacking away from offensive builds now they would still be more powerful than offensive builds were in the past. And those themed offensive builds worked just fine.
As long as dodge scaling allows LR to be as effective as Invuln or Defiance themed dodge builds will be fine. If the theme is defined by a defensive mechanic such as dodge then it might be appropriate for the character to have a defensive passive. Even with a defensive passive the character is likely to have offensive output comparable, or greater than, many offensive builds of the past.
Players were running offensive passives without a problem going all of the way back to launch. Anyone else remember when Quarry was an energy management passive ? Fireform, Shadowform, Ego Form, Ice Form, we used them all. We ran offensive passives when our damage output was not enhanced by every possible build having a toggle and specializations and the gear to boost DPS even further. People were running offensive passive themed builds with less damage than many defensive or even support builds can maintain now without a problem.
If you took all dodge stacking away from offensive builds now they would still be more powerful than offensive builds were in the past. And those themed offensive builds worked just fine.
As long as dodge scaling allows LR to be as effective as Invuln or Defiance themed dodge builds will be fine. If the theme is defined by a defensive mechanic such as dodge then it might be appropriate for the character to have a defensive passive. Even with a defensive passive the character is likely to have offensive output comparable, or greater than, many offensive builds of the past.
To clarify, my post was meant to address the point about the viability of offensive passives without dodge stacking. I was speaking purely of game mechanics.
I find the idea of selling gear for real world money and then nerfing it to drive sales of new gear to be obscene. I sincerely hope that such does not turn out to be the case. I really think that even the perception of this sort of behavior will likely do more harm than could be offset by potential revenue from selling the new gear.
Please Cryptic use ravenforce's suggestion and if you feel you must do this allow us to convert our legion gear in the same way legacy devices were handled.
The changes are long overdue since right now there is little point in using anything other than dodge for defense and crit for offense. These are not only the best stats by a wide margin, they are really easy to obtain (with a proper -high- investment in gear of course).
Of course the numbers need to be fine tuned. It would also be useful to have the vision behind these to see if the numbers match it. Those that tested pointed out the bad parts and put out some really good suggestions to adjust the new numbers. There are too few posts like these. The rest is just a long thread of gut responses rather than thoughtful criticism.
The nerf was waaay too harsh, I would love to see a middle point
Offense definitely needs to be more attractive, definitely the curve needs to scale better than it does right now
Edit: sorry for not putting out any useful feedback so far. Tonight I'll try to test the changes on the PTS from the point of view of an average player that does not min/maxes and wants to try several builds hoping for them to be somewhat viable.
______________________________________________________________ My Characters
The changes are long overdue since right now there is little point in using anything other than dodge for defense and crit for offense. These are not only the best stats by a wide margin, they are really easy to obtain (with a proper -high- investment in gear of course).
Of course the numbers need to be fine tuned. It would also be useful to have the vision behind these to see if the numbers match it. Those that tested pointed out the bad parts and put out some really good suggestions to adjust the new numbers. There are too few posts like these. The rest is just a long thread of gut responses rather than thoughtful criticism.
And to sum it up
"Those that tested" ?!
Tons of the things meant to be evaluated haven't been hooked up yet properly, as demonstrated by those in favor of these changes. Before you label something as a "gut response" you might want to do some homework. You just basically described a scenario that didn't happen yet as definite and chastised people.
"Centric" would mean that they are built around the dodge/avoidance and something had to be sacrificed for it.
Just like toons built for defense and damage reduction have to sacrifice options and take defensive passive.
Frankly, toon built around Quarry/WoTW should not be considered dodge-centric. It should be DPS centered toon with moderate defense capabilities, but not as good protected as toons made with defensive passives.
If one is making heavily dodge based toon, they should be taking defensive passive, just like other defensive builds have to use Invulnerability or Defiance.
Which points at Lightning Reflexes. Again.
LR should be on level of performance with Defiance or Invulnerability. Actually, it kinda is now, but...
WoTW should be comparable to maybe 2/3 LR. Because it's melee oriented passive and otherwise some melee builds will be faceplanting all the time. Not to mention the Blade Archetype. It has it as it's only defense.
Quarry should be below WoTW, it's ranged oriented passive. It doesn't require standing next to mobs taking all their damage. Maybe 1/2 or even 1/3 LR.
I don't see too much diversity in builds as it is now. Current state of balance makes many passives invalid.
Sigh. Every time I start to be thankful about what the devs are working on they do things to ruin it. I want to have faith in cryptic they just do their best to stop me. I am never going to support such needs.
If the numbers were incorrect and they change it I may change my mind but for now I am staying away from PTS. It currently makes me sick.
Thanks to all the others who have tested these changes and posted your ideas. It sucks that looking back, such ideas are likely to be ignored.
I don't see too much diversity in builds as it is now. Current state of balance makes many passives invalid.
Can you clarify what "invalid" means to you?
I ask because I have what I would consider at least one valid toon (most of which I've taken to the level cap) with every passive in the game except Congress of Selves, Aura of Arcane Clarity and Medical Nanites. And the only reason I haven't used those yet is because I don't have a concept in mind yet.
I also run into different builds/passives all the time in game so I'm wondering if our experiences are actually that different, if you have a very different idea of "invalid" or if you're kinda overstating something here.
If this was an extreme, why are missions rewards already apparently being affected without warning or notice?
Dodge/avoid is a core mitigation mechanic thanks to the limited returns from defense, not to mention massive hits like a force det from Gravitar.
You might as well just start broadcasting to the community that you as a company think your playerbase are moronic fools who will pay for anything.
People who have invested their time, money and effort won't be pleased by you going in this direction - nerf too little, you shouldn't have bothered touching it at all. Nerf too much and you alienate your player base entirely.
Right now, I can't see a possible "nerf just right".
There's no way to justify this course of action. A business wants to make money. Losing customers loses money. Losing your client base leads to a failed business.
Game items may be virtual in nature but represent time effort and money in one form or another. Requiring your customer base to gamble for new costume unlocks and gear was accepted as it would generate revenue and keep things alive. Cheating your customers or having the misbelief that a lockbox is like the next iphone is foolhardy.
Let's say a player doesn't get a lot of time in, but has been saving for weeks or maybe even months to get that legion of agility. In one fell swoop you are devaluing said player's time and meaning as a customer. You just lost a customer for life, gamers do remember.
Let's say a player has been opening lockboxes by buying zen with real world cash. A more casual player, they don't read forums and haven't a clue that upcoming changes may very well render anything he gets to have little or no value. By the time said player realizes something is wrong, its too late as the money has been spent. When they attempt to get compensation as usual per the policy they are refused compensation - another customer lost for life.
Major companies pay research companies money to get the feedback your customer base provides for free - yet time and again that feedback is ignored. Champions On-line has managed to get away with plenty as far as the player base is concerned. When Starwars Galaxies crossed the line, not even the Starwars License could save them from their mistake. What exactly do you think will happen with a lesser known ip such as Champions crosses said line?
I myself have put in far more hours than I'd ever care to admit, but once that line is crossed I won't hesitate to let all that time go down the drain. Not once since 2011 has there been an effort made that renewed my faith in development of this product. I've seen so much potential wasted.
You can't convince me that nerfing dodge/avoid will allow for the creation of new content - The carrier alert is great yet as the entire community has stated it needs an actual reward. If you can't do that right, how can I trust you to adjust a mechanic that has been embedded in its current state since the release of On-Alert?
Prove to your client base you know what you're doing.
You know, like a Destroid Invasion that doesn't need patching when it's had over a year to be debugged.
Maybe make the Carrier Mission worth doing? In its current state it basically tells us the customer base that Cryptic/PWE know whats wrong they just choose not to fix it.
Balance powers with the emphasis of improvement not performance reduction.
Understand that rewards are more than what you try to sell us in a lockbox.
Make us feel appreciated as customers, not mindless consumers who buy anything you sell.
I ask because I have what I would consider at least one valid toon (most of which I've taken to the level cap) with every passive in the game except Congress of Selves, Aura of Arcane Clarity and Medical Nanites. And the only reason I haven't used those yet is because I don't have a concept in mind yet.
I also run into different builds/passives all the time in game so I'm wondering if our experiences are actually that different, if you have a very different idea of "invalid" or if you're kinda overstating something here.
It's like... "Why I should build anything defensive with LR, when I can with WoTW/Quarry?".
Or every time when I see energy projector toon using Quarry because it's the best option for them.
Or when I'm building tank and it works great with Defiance or Invulnerability.
Problem? It works even better with Quarry.
Hm... Actualy, looking at builds these days. Maybe not dodge chance should be nuked , but just Quarry/WoTW adjusted?
It's like... "Why I should build anything defensive with LR, when I can with WoTW/Quarry?".
Or every time when I see energy projector toon using Quarry because it's the best option for them.
Or when I'm building tank and it works great with Defiance or Invulnerability.
Problem? It works even better with Quarry.
Hm... Actualy, looking at builds these days. Maybe not dodge chance should be nuked , but just Quarry/WoTW adjusted?
I see what you're saying now. One thought that just popped into mind since you mentioned it is tanking being easier on an offensive passive with defensive capabilities than it is on a defensive passive. But I won't put that down as a dodge issue, I put that as a "how threat works" issue.
As to Quarry. Quarry, IMO, is this game's general purpose passive. It does a little of everything well enough without being the best in any one area. I think the game needs one or two passives like that (AOPM being the other one I have in mind) to go along with all the other passives which are more focused. Also, it helps conceptually that Quarry is aura-less so can go with anything.
As to Quarry. Quarry, IMO, is this game's general purpose passive. It does a little of everything well enough without being the best in any one area. I think the game needs one or two passives like that (AOPM being the other one I have in mind) to go along with all the other passives which are more focused. Also, it helps conceptually that Quarry is aura-less so can go with anything.
I agree with the concept of passives that are more general and less focused, especially when they are visually neutral. My concern is when the DR model ensures that the generalist passives come so close to (or exceed) the performance of the specialist passives that it feels like self nerfing to take one.
so buff the other friggin passives. and make all the supervillain encounters and legendaries and cosmics more challenging and engaging. also perhaps increase regular mob strength slightly to balance for the stronger general passive pool.
So rebalance the entire game to prevent one or two powers from overperforming ? What is the point of the equivalent of adding a zero to the end of everything except the offensive passives that can produce defensive passive like defense numbers while pushing out offensive passive offensive numbers ?
that's you. most players have plenty of dodge themed toons who will be WRECKED.
Most?
What 51% ? More ? How many is most and how did you survey to come up with this conclusion ?
I know that I have themed toons with dodge who will not be wrecked. I mean the dodge numbers referred to in this thread here are no lower than when Quarry provided no dodge at all and the toons were effective with Quarry then.
perhaps make quarry a hybrid passive, and decrease the damage buff it gives.
Take LR (assuming that it is balanced to be comparable to Invuln and/or Defiance). If you want a passive that provides less offense but gives good defense you should not be going for an Offensive passive.
perhaps make quarry a hybrid passive, and decrease the damage buff it gives. same with WoTW if that's necessary. killing dodge will result in a mass exodus of players who have had half their toon concepts nuked. changing quarry and WoTW keeps the theme in place, avoiding the death of this game, and just requiring people to adjust the role of their character.
doing this OR what I suggested in my previous pose are both decent ideas.
I'd like to point that Quarry/WoTW were meant as an enchancement to offense. Nerfing their damage buff makes no sense. There is already one dodge centered passive in the game.
Dodge themed toons will have, at worst, as ashensnow pointed, switch to LR (i believe that PTS numbers for LR are just a bug). They will have damage output slightly weaker than before.
Well, weaker in theory. Since dodge, LR, Dex and crits are self-fuelling combination.
Comments
IT'S A BUG! IT'S A FREAKING BUG! What part of that aren't you folks getting?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
[thread=139701]My old, old guide for Ego Blades. Updated for On: Alert.[/thread]
[thread=154211]The Costume Contest Schedule. Stay up-to-date without having to log in![/thread]
Makes me wonder. Is there a way they could have gear/mods work better with specific sets and not as much with others?
Example...Heroic Breastplate of Agility w/ 2 Lucky Gems would give a Dodge Based Passive better returns than one that wasn't?
So an INV/Regen/AoPM/PFF could stack some dodge, but not as well as a LR/Quarry/WotW/NW (only sets that I could think of that were dodge based).
"Oh look! LR can hit 95/95 dodge/avoid and feel like they're actually dodging!
Put something in the code that says "When this passive is slotted, mods work this well"
There just isn't a reason LR shouldn't work as well as it does now. It's not INV getting dodge up to LR levels (and with just LR and gear...Legion with Rank 8 LG...I was hitting 70% dodge)...
Probably the part where it looks like they still want to nerf it, just not as bad as it is on PTS now?
What part of that don't you get?
I think they get it fine, it's at least half of this thread saying dodge is perfectly reasonable right now.
Although, there's no point in me even stating this, as it's not going to sway anyones opinion. Sage gave a superb explanation as he always does, but, unfortunately, it probably falls on deaf ears.
So, I'll just sit here with my cup, and collect tears to later relish with glee. :biggrin:
Deliciously nutritious!
Well, as a LR user who switched to Quarry. I'll just say I switched to Quarry because I saw a good increase in damage and hardly any change in survivability. Since Quarry feels like LR with more damage...it stayed within my mains concept.
Are you still going on about this? I'm sure 1/4 of the comments on here are yours just saying almost the same thing over and over. The problem is with the state at the moment is that you can get 70% dodge chance AND high health (about 12k - 14k or even more) AND about 80% resistance to all damage AND 100% crit severity to make heals heal for loads AND high base heals so on crit it heals for a crazy amount while still being able to hit high damage and fly through content. Do you not see the problem with all that?
Everyone keeps saying, they need to fix the passives that give dodge on the PTS at the moment... Yes, they do. ALTHOUGH they certainly need to bring it down from what it is and somehow make it so you can't go that high on dodge while not even sacrificing anything for the dodge.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
I've read about the sudden tweak to the mechanics and I see that dodge is the one being effected the most. I'm not very worried about this because after all might I remind you that it's in the PTS after all and it requires much test. I know why they attempt to "mess around" with the dodge- I'm not happy about it but I know it needs some type of decreese. It's kinda crazy you can stack that stuff to high numbers with not much effort and that in my eyes is not fair- many of you may disagree but right now that's not the point. In order to make the defense And offense more usefull they'll need to do something to dodge, dodge is not everything in a build and having defense and offense in your stat bar posted in small cute letters will not do. It needs to be usefull at somepoint in battle. Balance in the fighting mechanism is key to more possibilities for builds.
I know that now all of this is out of order and not working but give it time, it's a test after all. Instead of raging at the devs and writing the same thing over and over again, the best you can do is hope and test. Once again.... it's just a TEST, give them time to get it right. I really think that the devs are listening.
I know I've gone ballistic about them not fixing stuff or making lame or useless content before but now they're really trying.
If you love this game you'll understand that this is a step it needs to take so it can progress. Content is important but not as important as a balance in our fighting mechanism .
After a few different quick tests, PTS Offense is on the same layer as the other multiplicative values and it is added directly onto them for calculation purposes. Sad that it isn't on its own layer but then again maybe that is for the best.
Will I use it? No. Between how poorly it scales and the fact that I could have gotten critical strike instead, Offense is..just..meh at worst and eh at best but that is my opinion.
Upon further reflection: At least it isn't additive anymore!
If Dodge was adjusted more similar to how Crit Chance was adjusted (for me, Crit Chance fell to about 80% of the value on Live), then I don't think this adjustment would be something we all need to drastically rebuild for. My Live Dodge value was 51%, so 80% of that would be 40.6%. It'd be a "nerf" I could easily live with, and I think most of us could.
Why do I say if Dodge fell like Crit Chance? Because my Crit Strike and Avoidance fell within similar percentages. So I'm taking a guess that Dodge should have dropped similar to Crit Chance.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Maybe instead of lowering the dodge rating by what?? 75% why not a much lower percentage, at least start at 10% and make your way up slowly till you find the right one. And if we loose some dodge then make this offense and defense stuff be worth it.
I'm still not going to go at it much till we get more info onto what will they actually do after all of you guy's feedback and ideas.
Just hope it's good
That doesn't happen all the time and you know very well. Content isn't going to fix everything.
I'm not going to continue to talk to you because you'll just keep on saying " hue duh! Don't touch dodge, add more content! Ehmahgerd!!! Content will fix everything" just like you've done in every page of this post. But you go ahead, After all we are intitled to post our opinions. And yours is just one over mine and hundreds.
Good day :cool:
Hello Impact prism.
Well if I remember currently it use to be done based on the charge time / activate time of the powers used against you. Would you say this was a better system while also dodge was much harder to get hold of as well.
You seem to think that this is stopping customization but the entire idea in why they are doing this is to balance dodge out with things such as defence or growth when slotted into your gear. Remember that this is only in testing, the fact it is so extreme at the moment doesn't mean that much as long as they tone the curve down a little bit and also make sure LR isn't as effected. Quarry is just fine, it is an offensive passive where you get the same or more as other offensive passive damage wise while also being able to 97% dodge chance which is stupid.
Oh please jewel, growth all the way!
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
I'd point myself out as one. A page and a half of characters, not a single one uses dodge or avoidance. And know what? I've managed just fine.
Agreed.
Players were running offensive passives without a problem going all of the way back to launch. Anyone else remember when Quarry was an energy management passive ? Fireform, Shadowform, Ego Form, Ice Form, we used them all. We ran offensive passives when our damage output was not enhanced by every possible build having a toggle and specializations and the gear to boost DPS even further. People were running offensive passive themed builds with less damage than many defensive or even support builds can maintain now without a problem.
If you took all dodge stacking away from offensive builds now they would still be more powerful than offensive builds were in the past. And those themed offensive builds worked just fine.
As long as dodge scaling allows LR to be as effective as Invuln or Defiance themed dodge builds will be fine. If the theme is defined by a defensive mechanic such as dodge then it might be appropriate for the character to have a defensive passive. Even with a defensive passive the character is likely to have offensive output comparable, or greater than, many offensive builds of the past.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Take a few deep breaths and notice he is agreeing with you overall. Your sentiment is not unshared.
And the gear I paid money for?
To clarify, my post was meant to address the point about the viability of offensive passives without dodge stacking. I was speaking purely of game mechanics.
I find the idea of selling gear for real world money and then nerfing it to drive sales of new gear to be obscene. I sincerely hope that such does not turn out to be the case. I really think that even the perception of this sort of behavior will likely do more harm than could be offset by potential revenue from selling the new gear.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Please Cryptic use ravenforce's suggestion and if you feel you must do this allow us to convert our legion gear in the same way legacy devices were handled.
PLEASE.
Of course the numbers need to be fine tuned. It would also be useful to have the vision behind these to see if the numbers match it. Those that tested pointed out the bad parts and put out some really good suggestions to adjust the new numbers. There are too few posts like these. The rest is just a long thread of gut responses rather than thoughtful criticism.
And to sum it up
Edit: sorry for not putting out any useful feedback so far. Tonight I'll try to test the changes on the PTS from the point of view of an average player that does not min/maxes and wants to try several builds hoping for them to be somewhat viable.
My Characters
"Those that tested" ?!
Tons of the things meant to be evaluated haven't been hooked up yet properly, as demonstrated by those in favor of these changes. Before you label something as a "gut response" you might want to do some homework. You just basically described a scenario that didn't happen yet as definite and chastised people.
I'm sorry who are you again?
"Centric" would mean that they are built around the dodge/avoidance and something had to be sacrificed for it.
Just like toons built for defense and damage reduction have to sacrifice options and take defensive passive.
Frankly, toon built around Quarry/WoTW should not be considered dodge-centric. It should be DPS centered toon with moderate defense capabilities, but not as good protected as toons made with defensive passives.
If one is making heavily dodge based toon, they should be taking defensive passive, just like other defensive builds have to use Invulnerability or Defiance.
Which points at Lightning Reflexes. Again.
LR should be on level of performance with Defiance or Invulnerability. Actually, it kinda is now, but...
WoTW should be comparable to maybe 2/3 LR. Because it's melee oriented passive and otherwise some melee builds will be faceplanting all the time. Not to mention the Blade Archetype. It has it as it's only defense.
Quarry should be below WoTW, it's ranged oriented passive. It doesn't require standing next to mobs taking all their damage. Maybe 1/2 or even 1/3 LR.
I don't see too much diversity in builds as it is now. Current state of balance makes many passives invalid.
If the numbers were incorrect and they change it I may change my mind but for now I am staying away from PTS. It currently makes me sick.
Thanks to all the others who have tested these changes and posted your ideas. It sucks that looking back, such ideas are likely to be ignored.
They're a player just like you. Chill.
Real Soviet Damage PRIMUS Page | Soviet Might Build | Artwork of my Characters | I wrote a book called "The Ring of Void"
Can you clarify what "invalid" means to you?
I ask because I have what I would consider at least one valid toon (most of which I've taken to the level cap) with every passive in the game except Congress of Selves, Aura of Arcane Clarity and Medical Nanites. And the only reason I haven't used those yet is because I don't have a concept in mind yet.
I also run into different builds/passives all the time in game so I'm wondering if our experiences are actually that different, if you have a very different idea of "invalid" or if you're kinda overstating something here.
My Amazon author page
How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
Dodge/avoid is a core mitigation mechanic thanks to the limited returns from defense, not to mention massive hits like a force det from Gravitar.
You might as well just start broadcasting to the community that you as a company think your playerbase are moronic fools who will pay for anything.
People who have invested their time, money and effort won't be pleased by you going in this direction - nerf too little, you shouldn't have bothered touching it at all. Nerf too much and you alienate your player base entirely.
Right now, I can't see a possible "nerf just right".
There's no way to justify this course of action. A business wants to make money. Losing customers loses money. Losing your client base leads to a failed business.
Game items may be virtual in nature but represent time effort and money in one form or another. Requiring your customer base to gamble for new costume unlocks and gear was accepted as it would generate revenue and keep things alive. Cheating your customers or having the misbelief that a lockbox is like the next iphone is foolhardy.
Let's say a player doesn't get a lot of time in, but has been saving for weeks or maybe even months to get that legion of agility. In one fell swoop you are devaluing said player's time and meaning as a customer. You just lost a customer for life, gamers do remember.
Let's say a player has been opening lockboxes by buying zen with real world cash. A more casual player, they don't read forums and haven't a clue that upcoming changes may very well render anything he gets to have little or no value. By the time said player realizes something is wrong, its too late as the money has been spent. When they attempt to get compensation as usual per the policy they are refused compensation - another customer lost for life.
Major companies pay research companies money to get the feedback your customer base provides for free - yet time and again that feedback is ignored. Champions On-line has managed to get away with plenty as far as the player base is concerned. When Starwars Galaxies crossed the line, not even the Starwars License could save them from their mistake. What exactly do you think will happen with a lesser known ip such as Champions crosses said line?
I myself have put in far more hours than I'd ever care to admit, but once that line is crossed I won't hesitate to let all that time go down the drain. Not once since 2011 has there been an effort made that renewed my faith in development of this product. I've seen so much potential wasted.
You can't convince me that nerfing dodge/avoid will allow for the creation of new content - The carrier alert is great yet as the entire community has stated it needs an actual reward. If you can't do that right, how can I trust you to adjust a mechanic that has been embedded in its current state since the release of On-Alert?
Prove to your client base you know what you're doing.
You know, like a Destroid Invasion that doesn't need patching when it's had over a year to be debugged.
Maybe make the Carrier Mission worth doing? In its current state it basically tells us the customer base that Cryptic/PWE know whats wrong they just choose not to fix it.
Balance powers with the emphasis of improvement not performance reduction.
Understand that rewards are more than what you try to sell us in a lockbox.
Make us feel appreciated as customers, not mindless consumers who buy anything you sell.
It's like... "Why I should build anything defensive with LR, when I can with WoTW/Quarry?".
Or every time when I see energy projector toon using Quarry because it's the best option for them.
Or when I'm building tank and it works great with Defiance or Invulnerability.
Problem? It works even better with Quarry.
Hm... Actualy, looking at builds these days. Maybe not dodge chance should be nuked , but just Quarry/WoTW adjusted?
I see what you're saying now. One thought that just popped into mind since you mentioned it is tanking being easier on an offensive passive with defensive capabilities than it is on a defensive passive. But I won't put that down as a dodge issue, I put that as a "how threat works" issue.
As to Quarry. Quarry, IMO, is this game's general purpose passive. It does a little of everything well enough without being the best in any one area. I think the game needs one or two passives like that (AOPM being the other one I have in mind) to go along with all the other passives which are more focused. Also, it helps conceptually that Quarry is aura-less so can go with anything.
My Amazon author page
How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
I agree with the concept of passives that are more general and less focused, especially when they are visually neutral. My concern is when the DR model ensures that the generalist passives come so close to (or exceed) the performance of the specialist passives that it feels like self nerfing to take one.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
So rebalance the entire game to prevent one or two powers from overperforming ? What is the point of the equivalent of adding a zero to the end of everything except the offensive passives that can produce defensive passive like defense numbers while pushing out offensive passive offensive numbers ?
Most?
What 51% ? More ? How many is most and how did you survey to come up with this conclusion ?
I know that I have themed toons with dodge who will not be wrecked. I mean the dodge numbers referred to in this thread here are no lower than when Quarry provided no dodge at all and the toons were effective with Quarry then.
Take LR (assuming that it is balanced to be comparable to Invuln and/or Defiance). If you want a passive that provides less offense but gives good defense you should not be going for an Offensive passive.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
I'd like to point that Quarry/WoTW were meant as an enchancement to offense. Nerfing their damage buff makes no sense. There is already one dodge centered passive in the game.
Dodge themed toons will have, at worst, as ashensnow pointed, switch to LR (i believe that PTS numbers for LR are just a bug). They will have damage output slightly weaker than before.
Well, weaker in theory. Since dodge, LR, Dex and crits are self-fuelling combination.