If the devs (or anyone, for that matter) had final say on balance, there would be no balance discussions. Your statement also contradicts itself. If something is intentionally unbalanced now, then it's not balanced, now is it?
What you're trying to claim is that things are unbalanced in a positive way, which is...like, your opinion, man. Liking or disliking the imbalance doesn't change the fact that it is an imbalance.
I don't think anyone is arguing that AT vs FF is balanced. Note, however, the title of this thread is not "is there a reason", it's "should there be a reason".
Several people, yourself included, have argued exactly that for most of the thread.
What you're trying to claim is that things are unbalanced in a positive way, which is...like, your opinion, man. Liking or disliking the imbalance doesn't change the fact that it is an imbalance.
You misunderstand what Darqaura2 said - he's not saying that unbalanced is balanced. He's saying that FFs power level is not balanced against AT power level - i.e. when they put FF on the scale, they didn't put AT on the other side of the scale, as there was never any intent to make them equal since that's not the intended balance between the two options.
You're mixing up the usage of the terms - when he writes "FF was never meant to be balanced against ATs" he is not using the adjective form, he is using the verb form. i.e. when the devs balanced(verb) ATs and FFs, they purposely made them unequal in several ways because that was how to make them balanced(adj) according to the intent of the AT system.
If they're intentionally unequal, then they're not balanced, regardless of what is or is not intended.
Several people, yourself included, have argued exactly that for most of the thread.
Actually, several people have argued that they are not balanced and never have been. Some of us have argued for them to truly become balanced, but that is a goal that will likely never happen. In their current state, most ATs are far more balanced with FF than they ever were in the past, though the difference of 2 extra powers on FFs will always disrupt any semblance of balance between the two. So long as either one has a power advantage over the other there is no balance. And no, the versatility of FF is not a power advantage. If a FF uses the same powers and stats as an AT they should both be identical. Previously with the DR bug the AT was superior despite using the same abilities and having 2 fewer powers, now however the FF is superior due to the 2 extra powers... those extra powers are the only thing that creates any real imbalance between the two.
If they're intentionally unequal, then they're not balanced, regardless of what is or is not intended.
Do you realize how hypocritical you sound right now? You're the one who's been pushing for "exclusive advantages to ATs"... You're own desire is to have them completely unbalanced. You want the DR bug returned to "give ATs an edge"... That's not balance, and you know very well that it's not balance.
Previously with the DR bug the AT was superior despite using the same abilities and having 2 fewer powers, now however the FF is superior due to the 2 extra powers... those extra powers are the only thing that creates any real imbalance between the two.
The two powers, Super Stats, Specialisations and Roles. That's actually quite a substantial difference. If you consider the Grimoire AT, for example.... never gets to run in Support mode, which means its slotted passive (AoPM) is much less effective than an FF running in Support. Which means that an AT will always be at a disadvantage compared to a Freeform build even if their power framework is identical.
If they're intentionally unequal, then they're not balanced, regardless of what is or is not intended.
They are balanced, because the intent is for them to not be equal in terms of power and attainability. Things don't have to be equal to be balanced. Again I refer you to asymmetrical balance; it's quite popular nowadays.
-->HERE STARTS A QUOTE<-- And yet again you completely ignore the fact that a basic silver account with no purchases is rather limited on costumes. Most people won't just make multiple new accounts. People will buy costumes and stick to the account they bought them on. Do you see silvers creating 20 accounts for more ATs? Not really, because they have unlocked stuff on the one account and don't wish to buy/grind the unlocks again -->HERE ENDS A QUOTE<--
(sorry for quoting that way but doing it right killed the either the quote maker or the entire post when trying to fix it)
This.
Back when I created my main (at least IIRC) FF was sub only. So I bought the next best thing that fitted the general theme of the concept in mind which was the Devastator AT. I'm casual. Very casual. So I usually stay to one char I occasionally drop in and over the time bought some stuff here and there for that char. Some account some char only.
I would not be interested in infinite free FFs for creating new accounts. And those which do do not know the game well enough and would end up bored rather quickly.
Well... in theory I would not even bother with a new free FF slot on my account but rather pay 50 bucks to change my Devastator to FF (practically I might create a char on a new free FF slot but would get bored with it after 10-15 levels).
You guys are just confusing the poor guy. Gotta be consistent. ATs and FFs are balanced, they're just not equal; and that's why they're balanced, because that's how they're s'posed to be ^_^
You guys are just confusing the poor guy. Gotta be consistent. ATs and FFs are balanced, they're just not equal; and that's why they're balanced, because that's how they're s'posed to be ^_^
wait wait, so are you saying FF's are balanced with other FF's and ATs are balanced with other ATs? if so I would agree with you, but if you mean FFs and ATs are balanced with each other, then no..FFs are designed to have potential for advantage over ATs...assuming the one assembling it knows what he/she is doing.
Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
Well you see Cat, there's this one game where one player plays a giant monster, and the other players play normal humans. One on one, the player playing the giant monster can destroy the human players without them really having a chance. However, the player and monster characters are in fact balanced, despite their greatly differing power levels, due to various other circumstances. The situation here is the same: FFs and ATs are balanced, despite their varying power levels, due to various other circumstances.
If they're intentionally unequal, then they're not balanced, regardless of what is or is not intended.
They are balanced, because the intent is for them to not be equal in terms of power and attainability. Things don't have to be equal to be balanced. Again I refer you to asymmetrical balance; it's quite popular nowadays.
What we had before the patch was asymmetrical balance. Different classes had different strengths and weaknesses. What we have now doesn't qualify as balance in any sense of the word. And, yet again, intent doesn't matter in terms of balance. You keep bringing up that word, even though it has no place in a balance discussion.
If they're intentionally unequal, then they're not balanced, regardless of what is or is not intended.
Yup, they're not balanced. This is not a problem.
If you take the position that balance doesn't matter, then it is indeed not a problem. But, if balance doesn't matter, then all of the other balance patches have been, at best, pointless change. You can't have it both ways.
Several people, yourself included, have argued exactly that for most of the thread.
Actually, several people have argued that they are not balanced and never have been. Some of us have argued for them to truly become balanced, but that is a goal that will likely never happen. In their current state, most ATs are far more balanced with FF than they ever were in the past, though the difference of 2 extra powers on FFs will always disrupt any semblance of balance between the two. So long as either one has a power advantage over the other there is no balance. And no, the versatility of FF is not a power advantage. If a FF uses the same powers and stats as an AT they should both be identical. Previously with the DR bug the AT was superior despite using the same abilities and having 2 fewer powers, now however the FF is superior due to the 2 extra powers... those extra powers are the only thing that creates any real imbalance between the two.
If they're intentionally unequal, then they're not balanced, regardless of what is or is not intended.
Do you realize how hypocritical you sound right now? You're the one who's been pushing for "exclusive advantages to ATs"... You're own desire is to have them completely unbalanced. You want the DR bug returned to "give ATs an edge"... That's not balance, and you know very well that it's not balance.
I think you misunderstand. Equal does not necessarily mean the same. As we already went over, FFs have the exclusive edge of role switching. So, for balance (in our hypothetical scenario of 14 powers for each), either ATs have to have role switching too, or they have to have some other advantage.
If you take the position that balance doesn't matter, then it is indeed not a problem. But, if balance doesn't matter, then all of the other balance patches have been, at best, pointless change. You can't have it both ways.
Pantagruel's position is that balance between FFs and ATs, specifically, does not matter, not balance with regards to power and stat mechanics in general, so yes he can have it both ways. There is no double-standard here.
And it's an opinion I agree with. If someone's so uppity and insecure about their AT not measuring up against a FF, get a freeform slot, or go Gold. Problem solved.
What we had before the patch was asymmetrical balance. Different classes had different strengths and weaknesses. What we have now doesn't qualify as balance in any sense of the word.
The problem was never balance between FF and AT. The problem was balance between ATs. Some ATs did far more damage than other ATs that were similar. THAT was the core problem.
What we had before the patch was asymmetrical balance. Different classes had different strengths and weaknesses. What we have now doesn't qualify as balance in any sense of the word. And, yet again, intent doesn't matter in terms of balance. You keep bringing up that word, even though it has no place in a balance discussion.
We still have asymmetrical balance, and in fact it is in a more balanced state now since they got rid of the unintended bug that was skewing the balance in favor of ATs. You may have preferred the previous state, but that doesn't make it more balanced, it just makes it preferred ( by you ).
The level 20 can become a level 40 simply by doing some content. Such is not true of Archetypes and Freeforms. Your metaphor doesn't apply.
You can do content, get questonite, convert it to zen, and buy a freeform slot, then remake the exact same character with the freeform slot and level it to 40. So yeah, you're wrong again - that level 20 AT can in fact become a freeform by doing some content. And yes, that level 20 AT and that freeform are the same person.
If you take the position that balance doesn't matter, then it is indeed not a problem. But, if balance doesn't matter, then all of the other balance patches have been, at best, pointless change. You can't have it both ways.
Again, this is a strawman. Panta has never taken the position that "balance doesn't matter". His position is that "ATs and FFs do not need to be balanced to be equal in terms of character power" - and this is pretty obviously his position and very hard to misconstrue as anything else. If you have a convincing argument for why this position suddenly stretches to mean "Balance doesn't matter in any part of the game" then please do present it... otherwise, you're just strawmanning.
I think you misunderstand. Equal does not necessarily mean the same. As we already went over, FFs have the exclusive edge of role switching. So, for balance (in our hypothetical scenario of 14 powers for each), either ATs have to have role switching too, or they have to have some other advantage.
No they don't, they don't need any of that, because quite simply they cost less, or are free. ATs are meant to be less powerful than FFs, so arguing that they need to be equal or that they need to have the same advantages simply displays a lack of awareness or acceptance of the intent behind their current state.
Simply put, ATs were never supposed to have the damage output they did. You don't get compensated when someone takes something away from you that you were never supposed to have, because by doing so they put you in your intended state. You may not like it, you may prefer something else, but what you see when an AT gets the bug removed and gets their little overhaul is the intended, balanced state of ATs. You can howl at the moon about it all day long, but your intent isn't the one that drives development.
You can do content, get questonite, convert it to zen, and buy a freeform slot,
FF slot = 5000 Zen Current Q/Zen Ex Rate = 415q p/Zen
5000*415 = 2,075,000 Q
Max Q refining rate for Silver Account = 8000 p/day
2,075,000/8000 = 259 days
(just sayin')
Regardless, the option to grind questionite to convert it to ZEN, to afford a FF slot, is open.
It takes an insane amount of time and grinding just to get a FF slot? Well duh, it's incentive to get people to pay for ZEN. If things were made so easy to get ZEN for free, nobody would spend actual money getting ZEN.
You can do content, get questonite, convert it to zen, and buy a freeform slot,
FF slot = 5000 Zen Current Q/Zen Ex Rate = 415q p/Zen
5000*415 = 2,075,000 Q
Max Q refining rate for Silver Account = 8000 p/day
2,075,000/8000 = 259 days
(just sayin')
8000 per character per day.
You can cut that time in half by doing it on 2 characters. Cut it down to 1 fourth with four characters. Too much effort? We'll let the individual decide. The more effort you put in, the faster you get it.
Also, Vigilance quest reduces that time, plus if you got some resources you could buy Q crates.
You can do content, get questonite, convert it to zen, and buy a freeform slot,
FF slot = 5000 Zen Current Q/Zen Ex Rate = 415q p/Zen
5000*415 = 2,075,000 Q
Max Q refining rate for Silver Account = 8000 p/day
2,075,000/8000 = 259 days
(just sayin')
8000 per character per day.
You can cut that time in half by doing it on 2 characters. Cut it down to 1 fourth with four characters. Too much effort? We'll let the individual decide. The more effort you put in, the faster you get it.
Also, Vigilance quest reduces that time, plus if you got some resources you could buy Q crates.
it's 4000 per day per character for silvers... 8000 is a Gold perk... and 16000 is a vet reward...
The level 20 can become a level 40 simply by doing some content. Such is not true of Archetypes and Freeforms. Your metaphor doesn't apply.
The Archetype can become a Freeform by simply paying money to the company. Just like it is the company's intention for players to not linger at lvl 20 and do some content to get to lvl 40, it is also their intention for players to buy a freeform slot after experiencing the game for free. So the metaphor applies perfectly.
And yeah if you have more time than money then you can also invest that and get the Freeform slot for free.
The company also sells Premium ATs - they are the majority of ATs for sale, in fact. Why shouldn't they be as good as a Freeform? I can see the argument for the Silver/F2P ATs being more limited, but not a product which people are being asked to purchase.
The company also sells Premium ATs - they are the majority of ATs for sale, in fact. Why shouldn't they be as good as a Freeform? I can see the argument for the Silver/F2P ATs being more limited, but not a product which people are being asked to purchase.
This is the very reason that so many of us have been trying for years to get them to just make all ATs free.
The company also sells Premium ATs - they are the majority of ATs for sale, in fact. Why shouldn't they be as good as a Freeform? I can see the argument for the Silver/F2P ATs being more limited, but not a product which people are being asked to purchase.
The company also sells Premium ATs - they are the majority of ATs for sale, in fact. Why shouldn't they be as good as a Freeform? I can see the argument for the Silver/F2P ATs being more limited, but not a product which people are being asked to purchase.
Sometimes they are as good. Sometimes they are worse. Sometimes they are better. Depends on the Freeform and the AT.
If your question is why can't they be as good as the *best* Freeforms...well that's because there are very few build combinations that are the *best* - by definition - and this would invalidate a big reason to be Freeform.
The reason to buy a premium AT is to not have to know everything you need to make the *best* Freeforms. You get it premade, it's guaranteed to work well, and you can just dive in and play.
The reason to buy a premium AT is to not have to know everything you need to make the *best* Freeforms. You get it premade, it's guaranteed to work well, and you can just dive in and play.
The 'guaranteed to work well' part, unfortunately, doesn't actually correspond to reality.
The 'guaranteed to work well' part, unfortunately, doesn't actually correspond to reality.
The premium ATs that have had their DR bug fixed work pretty well. Especially relative to many of the builds posted on the forums by people seeking help.
The Archetype can become a Freeform by simply paying money to the company. Just like it is the company's intention for players to not linger at lvl 20 and do some content to get to lvl 40, it is also their intention for players to buy a freeform slot after experiencing the game for free. So the metaphor applies perfectly.
And yeah if you have more time than money then you can also invest that and get the Freeform slot for free.
Doing content and paying money are not the same thing at all. If they were, people wouldn't get so up in arms about things like being forced to pay money to get a game's ending. Your metaphor still doesn't work.
If someone could grind their character into a FF for some arbitrarily high amount of questionite or zen, then your metaphor would work.
If your question is why can't they be as good as the *best* Freeforms...well that's because there are very few build combinations that are the *best* - by definition - and this would invalidate a big reason to be Freeform.
The reason to buy a premium AT is to not have to know everything you need to make the *best* Freeforms. You get it premade, it's guaranteed to work well, and you can just dive in and play.
This argument has no weight in a world where you can copy and paste builds. You don't need to "know" anything; you simply need to be able to ask people who do. I mean, really, is there anything flowcyto can't make work?
The idea of what is "best" is also difficult to define, as there's often subjectivity involved. We can say that a FF is definitely better than a Soldier because you can make a Soldier+ with a FF. But it's much harder to say that a Soldier is better than an Inferno because they do slightly different things due to their different powers. We could say that one is better in this situation or that one, or even that one is better in most situations, but then people could argue that this particular situation or that is more important, and then it gets all hazy. In fact, the latter scenario is exactly how it was with FFs and ATs before the patch; FFs were the stronger option in all but a few specific situations.
The closest thing I've seen to a good argument for the paid ATs is that they're cheaper than FF slots, so they get to be somewhere in the middle. The problem, of course, is that if a person is going to be willing to dump 20 bucks into the game for a paid AT, they're probably better off in the long run buying a FF slot.
What we had before the patch was asymmetrical balance. Different classes had different strengths and weaknesses. What we have now doesn't qualify as balance in any sense of the word. And, yet again, intent doesn't matter in terms of balance. You keep bringing up that word, even though it has no place in a balance discussion.
We still have asymmetrical balance, and in fact it is in a more balanced state now since they got rid of the unintended bug that was skewing the balance in favor of ATs. You may have preferred the previous state, but that doesn't make it more balanced, it just makes it preferred ( by you ).
You can do content, get questonite, convert it to zen, and buy a freeform slot, then remake the exact same character with the freeform slot and level it to 40. So yeah, you're wrong again - that level 20 AT can in fact become a freeform by doing some content. And yes, that level 20 AT and that freeform are the same person.
Again, this is a strawman. Panta has never taken the position that "balance doesn't matter". His position is that "ATs and FFs do not need to be balanced to be equal in terms of character power" - and this is pretty obviously his position and very hard to misconstrue as anything else. If you have a convincing argument for why this position suddenly stretches to mean "Balance doesn't matter in any part of the game" then please do present it... otherwise, you're just strawmanning.
No they don't, they don't need any of that, because quite simply they cost less, or are free. ATs are meant to be less powerful than FFs, so arguing that they need to be equal or that they need to have the same advantages simply displays a lack of awareness or acceptance of the intent behind their current state.
Simply put, ATs were never supposed to have the damage output they did. You don't get compensated when someone takes something away from you that you were never supposed to have, because by doing so they put you in your intended state. You may not like it, you may prefer something else, but what you see when an AT gets the bug removed and gets their little overhaul is the intended, balanced state of ATs. You can howl at the moon about it all day long, but your intent isn't the one that drives development.
Balance mattering for one class but not the others is a case of the special pleading fallacy. If it's acceptable for the option of FFs to be superior to ATs, then the very same arguments could be used to justify the dominance of the old 2GM or what have you.
An asymmetrical balance by its very nature requires there to be balance. The current situation is not balanced, and therefore does not qualify as asymmetrical balance.
Remaking a character as a FF isn't the same as turning a character from an AT into a FF; it's making a different character that happens to have the same name and appearance.
FFs can be obtained without money, as we've already went over. A power imbalance cannot therefore be justified by cost.
The intended state of ATs is not a balanced one. If you like it that way, that's fine, because our opinions do not drive development. But this isn't about what the developers intend; we all know what they intend, so there's nothing to discuss there. But the thing is, if you think balance matters, then the patch hurt the game. But, if you think balance doesn't matter, then all the other power change patches hurt the game, because there was no reason to do them if balance doesn't matter. Either way, the game ended up worse than it would have been otherwise.
It's pretty clear at this point you don't care about game balance, and you have the right to that opinion. But you should be more honest about it.
Balance mattering for one class but not the others is a case of the special pleading fallacy. If it's acceptable for the option of FFs to be superior to ATs, then the very same arguments could be used to justify the dominance of the old 2GM or what have you.
$$$$
Figured it out yet? That is why paid options are meant to be better. If they were equal or worse, they wouldn't be as desirable. It's not a "fallacy" when it's a core principle of game design. So what if you personally don't like it? The game is fueled by microtransactions. Paid class options are simply one of many things that pay for the game.
As for your pedantic "FFs can be obtained without money". Your statement is inaccurate in how it makes it seem like they can be easily gotten for free. They're ridiculously time-consuming to grind for, and the most common way to grind for one is a matter of getting other people to pay $$$ for your freeform, and not actually getting it for free. There's also limited time promos, and Arc stuff, but that's a marketing gimmick, and thus it's not really free either.
And last, but certainly not least, is that all your soapboxxery ignores that the glitched ATs were not balanced against each other. therefore the prior state of the game was not balanced by any standard, not even your own.
Doing content and paying money are not the same thing at all. If they were, people wouldn't get so up in arms about things like being forced to pay money to get a game's ending.
If they were the same thing then it also would not be an analogy in case you are confused about what those are.
But the analogy works just fine. The developers do not want ATs and FFs to be equal because it would make no sense whatsoever....so they are not. Just like it would make no sense for lvl 20s and 40s to be equal.
This argument has no weight in a world where you can copy and paste builds. You don't need to "know" anything; you simply need to be able to ask people who do. I mean, really, is there anything flowcyto can't make work?
Who is this magical "you"? Are you talking about the % of the playerbase that reads the builds and powers section of the forums and then copies and plays a build? Are you actually serious?
It has plenty of weight in a world where most people don't actually do that.
The closest thing I've seen to a good argument for the paid ATs is that they're cheaper than FF slots, so they get to be somewhere in the middle. The problem, of course, is that if a person is going to be willing to dump 20 bucks into the game for a paid AT, they're probably better off in the long run buying a FF slot.
That's not a problem. Your imaginary person might not care about the long run. People can decide for themselves if they want to make the purchase. If they don't then they won't and the company will try to sell them something different.
Your evaluation of what's "better" for the long run for this arbitrary person is entirely arbitrary.
A good argument for paid ATs is that they sell well. End of story. Their existence does not require any more justification than "generates sustainable revenue".
Their existence does not require any more justification than "generates sustainable revenue".
Yes, but they could generate more revenue by being well crafted and good to play. CO has always been about accessorising the build with costume slots, costume pieces, vehicles, devices and items - keep people playing, they'll keep spending money. Many of the Premium ATs would feel like a bad investment ( and some wouldn't, fair play, but you don't really know until you've spent your money).
The intended state of ATs is not a balanced one. If you like it that way, that's fine, because our opinions do not drive development. But this isn't about what the developers intend; we all know what they intend, so there's nothing to discuss there. But the thing is, if you think balance matters, then the patch hurt the game. But, if you think balance doesn't matter, then all the other power change patches hurt the game, because there was no reason to do them if balance doesn't matter. Either way, the game ended up worse than it would have been otherwise.
It's pretty clear at this point you don't care about game balance, and you have the right to that opinion. But you should be more honest about it.
You havn't a clue what you're even talking about. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who's tired of trying to get this through your insanely thick skull.
ATs were completely unbalanced before, not just in relation to FFs, but in relation to other ATs even. The DR bug made DPS ATs insanely strong, far stronger than was ever intended. This actually resulted in some rather bad balance changes for some of the newer content. Endgame content got overturned in a few of the balance passes to compensate for DPS ATs. The DR bug also had a hand in over nerfing some powers in previous power passes... It was overall bad for the game.
Now that the DR bug is being fixed, powers can be properly balanced without compensating for AT DR. Some ATs are still not balanced, but most of those ATs haven't even recieved a balance pass... most notably, Behemoth and Impulse. The devs have stated that they are still working on balancing and that fixing the DR bug is just one much needed step in the process. Now that it's out of the way they can properly balance stuff how it was INTENDED to be to begin with.
The only one here who seems to not actually care about balance, is you.
Many of the Premium ATs would feel like a bad investment
The issue I take with statements like this is that I could substitute the word "Premium ATs" with pretty much anything sold ever and it would not change how true or false this statement is. That's because it's super general and the buyer is completely undefined. Without defining who we are talking about there is not much to talk about.
( and some wouldn't, fair play, but you don't really know until you've spent your money).
True of anything you ever buy. If you do more research, read reviews, etc....then you can make an informed decision. But the same is true of the ATs....if you ask around, read the forums, etc....then you can be better informed about your possible purchase.
Of course they could generate more revenue from some people by being better for those people. But better for who? Without that, it's just as easy to claim that they're already fantastic.
So is it new players? For whom, simple rotations and direction is most important? Who already have plenty to accessorize? Is it players who already 1 or 2 lvl 40s and are looking at playing new characters, but want something more or different and would like customize their gameplay exprience? Is it veterans that have a constant need for new accessories, gear, and require absolute freedom with regards to customizing their powers?
And that's just a sample of how we could try to define the buyer, but if the goal is to talk about how ATs could generate more revenue then the first place to start is by asking "from who" and "what do they want". Answers like "everyone" or "most people" don't actually help with anything.
Let's pretend we're talking about action figures. I am a store that sells action figures. I sell 50 kinds of actions figures, and I also sell custom made action figures.
1. So, in order to get people interested in my action figure store I pick 5 of my action figures which I give to people for free when they walk in the door - they're not any worse than the rest, they're just the 5 I think might have some general appeal or would make the best impact. Would it be reasonable for these people to complain when I hand them free action figures because the other 45 action figures I don't give away for free are the same as the ones I gave for free?
2. I also make custom action figures for people. Not only are they customized, but I have pieces that I can use for them that aren't available for the other premade action figures - I can also add more individual pieces to them than the premade ones, so they have more total pieces on them. They cost more than the premade action figures as well, a little over twice as much. Would it be reasonable for people to demand that I make premade action figures using the special custom-only pieces, and that I add more pieces to all existing premade action figures? If I gave in to these demands, would it be reasonable for me to raise the price of premade action figures since they now contain some of the features I normally charge more for?
3. I have a benefits program where every day you visit my store I put a sticker on a card, and after you have enough stickers you get a custom action figure for free. Conversely you can also turn in your card early for a discount on a custom action figure. Does this benefits program invalidate the difference between premade and custom action figures?
The issue I take with statements like this is that I could substitute the word "Premium ATs" with pretty much anything sold ever and it would not change how true or false this statement is. That's because it's super general and the buyer is completely undefined. Without defining who we are talking about there is not much to talk about.
Would it be reasonable for these people to complain when I hand them free action figures because the other 45 action figures I don't give away for free are the same as the ones I gave for free?
Depends. If you're a collector who only wants to own the object (rather than have it for its efficacy or utility) then you'd have no problem with the other Action figures having the same qualities, but not being free. You'd be grateful for the freebie. However if you want an item and are judging it by its utility, then expectation is that the more expensive item will be materially better than the free one. Otherwise, why are they charging you for it?
I get how it came about.... once nothing in the game was free, then it became F2P and they didn't want to make all the ATs free. That makes business sense, and like with the action figures, all the players at that time were just grateful for the freebie. But everyone else that came after expected that paid items would be materially better than the free ones. And some aren't. Needs fixing.
Before the patch, every class had something over every other class (however situational it might have been). One could therefore claim asymmetrical balance. That is no longer possible. Therefore, the game is less balanced than before. Now, if ATs were to get two extra powers and role-switching like we've been discussing, then the game could very well come out better in terms of balance that it was before any of the changes. But that's a hypothetical future, not the actual present.
Action Figures are not games. The concept of balance, which is what this whole thing is about, doesn't apply to action figures.
You keep trying to explain to me something I already know. Cryptic decided to take the game in a certain direction, and the AT DR didn't fit that vision. There's nothing complicated about it, and as a business they have the right to do whatever they want with their product. They have the right to delete every character and force everyone to start anew, but with every power made carrot-themed and every enemy transformed into a radioactive kitten that spits physics equations at us.
None of that has anything to do with what I'm saying. Cryptic has spent a year changing many things in the name of balance. Change for the sake of change would normally be considered a bad thing (in terms of how "good" the game is), but change for the sake of balance is acceptable to a person who cares about balance. However, what we just had was change that decreased balance. So, to a person that cared about balance, the game was hurt by the change. But, to a person that didn't care about balance in the first place, all the other changes would be negative. A person who valued multiple concerns, with balance being one of them, would also view it as negative because it sacrificed one of their concerns when it was possible to satisfy them all.
All three positions lead to the conclusion that the current situation is negative (or more accurately, less positive than the game would have been otherwise).
Um, yeah, giant wall of text and no reason why FF should be in any way inferior to an AT.
I would like to hear what Reaper thinks about how the DR bug affected ATs inequally. Thus making ATs that should have been approximately equal anything but.
I'm now convinced more than ever that people who vehemently argue that there needs to be a balance between FFs and ATs are any of the following:
1) Ignorant, willingly or otherwise, of the game's F2P business model and how FF and ATs correlate to it.
2) Ignorant, willingly or otherwise, of complexities involved with balancing a fully open-ended freeform class system against an entirely static one.
3) Want ATs to be on par with FF so that they have more of a reason to avoid paying for gold or FF slots altogether.
I mean, you can argue theoretically that such a balance should exist and repeat the same arguments over and over in the same thread over many pages, but the facts that remain show that it's just not doable.
most of the AT's are amazing idk why people cry about them all the time the only thing i would give AT's is ulti power other than that i think they are just fine
Soldier plays so much better now as it is a complete AT. It is without a doubt my most favorite followed by Mind. Can imagine how disgustingly good Mind would be if it had a rez? Then again what would be the point of FF if the free AT's had it all haha?
I find the free ATs very interesting to still play alongside FFs. Honestly, the premium AT that you pay for shouldn't be inferior than a FF you pay for IMO.
The one issue I have with FF is that the amount of self healing they have access too can trivialize the experience of players that use healers or tanks whether they are ATs or FFS.
Other than that complaint from me balance changes the last year or so have been reasonable and on point.
I'm now convinced more than ever that people who vehemently argue that there needs to be a balance between FFs and ATs are any of the following:
I mean, you can argue theoretically that such a balance should exist and repeat the same arguments over and over in the same thread over many pages, but the facts that remain show that it's just not doable.
And I could claim that people like you just want their FFs to be that more uber than other people by comparison. Let's not attack strawmen, okay?
Such a balance already existed, and could easily be done again through mechanisms that have been discussed in this very thread, some of which wouldn't even threaten FFs as the preferred choice in any way. To claim that it cannot be done is demonstrably false. We've been over this.
And I could claim that people like you just want their FFs to be that more uber than other people by comparison. Let's not attack strawmen, okay?
But you're absolutely right, I want my FF to be more "uber" than people playing ATs, because why in the hell would I even have bothered playing FF when I could AT? Could it be that I wanted a premium service warranted by me investing actual money to get the higher-value quality of service that I expect from making that payment? Gee, what a concept!
What strawman? You continue to show a fascinating level of ignorance and stubborness with how you continue to show a complete disregard for how this game is structured as a product to be sold to people and exactly why the F2P matrix exists.
Such a balance already existed, and could easily be done again through mechanisms that have been discussed in this very thread, some of which wouldn't even threaten FFs as the preferred choice in any way. To claim that it cannot be done is demonstrably false. We've been over this.
Yeah sure, and I've yet to see your practical example of how a universal balance between FF and AT can be achieved. Detail how it's done through all powersets, especially when a FF can mix-and-match as they please while AT is severely much more restricted in that aspect. Give us this brilliant solution to the challenges that devs and players alike have been struggling to tackle ever since the game launched. Talk is cheap.
I'm now convinced more than ever that people who vehemently argue that there needs to be a balance between FFs and ATs are any of the following:
I mean, you can argue theoretically that such a balance should exist and repeat the same arguments over and over in the same thread over many pages, but the facts that remain show that it's just not doable.
And I could claim that people like you just want their FFs to be that more uber than other people by comparison. Let's not attack strawmen, okay?
Such a balance already existed, and could easily be done again through mechanisms that have been discussed in this very thread, some of which wouldn't even threaten FFs as the preferred choice in any way. To claim that it cannot be done is demonstrably false. We've been over this.
You are reaching hard at this point. There is no balance required. Get over yourself.
This thread has been downgraded into reaper's personal Echo Chamber from the start
ATs' DR bug was an exploit and it was never good neither Healthy for the game, GET OVER IT
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergiesPlaying since 1 February 2011 98+ Characters (7 ATs, 91 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
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We've been over the other question already. If they're intentionally unequal, then they're not balanced, regardless of what is or is not intended.
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Block timing explained
The two powers, Super Stats, Specialisations and Roles. That's actually quite a substantial difference. If you consider the Grimoire AT, for example.... never gets to run in Support mode, which means its slotted passive (AoPM) is much less effective than an FF running in Support. Which means that an AT will always be at a disadvantage compared to a Freeform build even if their power framework is identical.
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And yet again you completely ignore the fact that a basic silver account with no purchases is rather limited on costumes. Most people won't just make multiple new accounts. People will buy costumes and stick to the account they bought them on. Do you see silvers creating 20 accounts for more ATs? Not really, because they have unlocked stuff on the one account and don't wish to buy/grind the unlocks again
-->HERE ENDS A QUOTE<--
(sorry for quoting that way but doing it right killed the either the quote maker or the entire post when trying to fix it)
This.
Back when I created my main (at least IIRC) FF was sub only. So I bought the next best thing that fitted the general theme of the concept in mind which was the Devastator AT. I'm casual. Very casual. So I usually stay to one char I occasionally drop in and over the time bought some stuff here and there for that char. Some account some char only.
I would not be interested in infinite free FFs for creating new accounts. And those which do do not know the game well enough and would end up bored rather quickly.
Well... in theory I would not even bother with a new free FF slot on my account but rather pay 50 bucks to change my Devastator to FF
He who posts 2 years before he joins
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/comment/10732872
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if an AT where to go up against my PvP cat, i would clean house like Goro!
Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
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And it's an opinion I agree with. If someone's so uppity and insecure about their AT not measuring up against a FF, get a freeform slot, or go Gold. Problem solved.
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Again, this is a strawman. Panta has never taken the position that "balance doesn't matter". His position is that "ATs and FFs do not need to be balanced to be equal in terms of character power" - and this is pretty obviously his position and very hard to misconstrue as anything else. If you have a convincing argument for why this position suddenly stretches to mean "Balance doesn't matter in any part of the game" then please do present it... otherwise, you're just strawmanning. No they don't, they don't need any of that, because quite simply they cost less, or are free. ATs are meant to be less powerful than FFs, so arguing that they need to be equal or that they need to have the same advantages simply displays a lack of awareness or acceptance of the intent behind their current state.
Simply put, ATs were never supposed to have the damage output they did. You don't get compensated when someone takes something away from you that you were never supposed to have, because by doing so they put you in your intended state. You may not like it, you may prefer something else, but what you see when an AT gets the bug removed and gets their little overhaul is the intended, balanced state of ATs. You can howl at the moon about it all day long, but your intent isn't the one that drives development.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
FF slot = 5000 Zen
Current Q/Zen Ex Rate = 415q p/Zen
5000*415 = 2,075,000 Q
Max Q refining rate for Silver Account = 8000 p/day
2,075,000/8000 = 259 days
(just sayin')
It takes an insane amount of time and grinding just to get a FF slot? Well duh, it's incentive to get people to pay for ZEN. If things were made so easy to get ZEN for free, nobody would spend actual money getting ZEN.
You can cut that time in half by doing it on 2 characters. Cut it down to 1 fourth with four characters. Too much effort? We'll let the individual decide. The more effort you put in, the faster you get it.
Also, Vigilance quest reduces that time, plus if you got some resources you could buy Q crates.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
And yeah if you have more time than money then you can also invest that and get the Freeform slot for free.
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FF<best
paid AT<not as good
free AT<least good
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If your question is why can't they be as good as the *best* Freeforms...well that's because there are very few build combinations that are the *best* - by definition - and this would invalidate a big reason to be Freeform.
The reason to buy a premium AT is to not have to know everything you need to make the *best* Freeforms. You get it premade, it's guaranteed to work well, and you can just dive in and play.
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Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
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Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
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If someone could grind their character into a FF for some arbitrarily high amount of questionite or zen, then your metaphor would work. This argument has no weight in a world where you can copy and paste builds. You don't need to "know" anything; you simply need to be able to ask people who do. I mean, really, is there anything flowcyto can't make work?
The idea of what is "best" is also difficult to define, as there's often subjectivity involved. We can say that a FF is definitely better than a Soldier because you can make a Soldier+ with a FF. But it's much harder to say that a Soldier is better than an Inferno because they do slightly different things due to their different powers. We could say that one is better in this situation or that one, or even that one is better in most situations, but then people could argue that this particular situation or that is more important, and then it gets all hazy. In fact, the latter scenario is exactly how it was with FFs and ATs before the patch; FFs were the stronger option in all but a few specific situations.
The closest thing I've seen to a good argument for the paid ATs is that they're cheaper than FF slots, so they get to be somewhere in the middle. The problem, of course, is that if a person is going to be willing to dump 20 bucks into the game for a paid AT, they're probably better off in the long run buying a FF slot. Balance mattering for one class but not the others is a case of the special pleading fallacy. If it's acceptable for the option of FFs to be superior to ATs, then the very same arguments could be used to justify the dominance of the old 2GM or what have you.
An asymmetrical balance by its very nature requires there to be balance. The current situation is not balanced, and therefore does not qualify as asymmetrical balance.
Remaking a character as a FF isn't the same as turning a character from an AT into a FF; it's making a different character that happens to have the same name and appearance.
FFs can be obtained without money, as we've already went over. A power imbalance cannot therefore be justified by cost.
The intended state of ATs is not a balanced one. If you like it that way, that's fine, because our opinions do not drive development. But this isn't about what the developers intend; we all know what they intend, so there's nothing to discuss there. But the thing is, if you think balance matters, then the patch hurt the game. But, if you think balance doesn't matter, then all the other power change patches hurt the game, because there was no reason to do them if balance doesn't matter. Either way, the game ended up worse than it would have been otherwise.
It's pretty clear at this point you don't care about game balance, and you have the right to that opinion. But you should be more honest about it.
Figured it out yet? That is why paid options are meant to be better. If they were equal or worse, they wouldn't be as desirable. It's not a "fallacy" when it's a core principle of game design. So what if you personally don't like it? The game is fueled by microtransactions. Paid class options are simply one of many things that pay for the game.
As for your pedantic "FFs can be obtained without money". Your statement is inaccurate in how it makes it seem like they can be easily gotten for free. They're ridiculously time-consuming to grind for, and the most common way to grind for one is a matter of getting other people to pay $$$ for your freeform, and not actually getting it for free. There's also limited time promos, and Arc stuff, but that's a marketing gimmick, and thus it's not really free either.
And last, but certainly not least, is that all your soapboxxery ignores that the glitched ATs were not balanced against each other. therefore the prior state of the game was not balanced by any standard, not even your own.
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But the analogy works just fine. The developers do not want ATs and FFs to be equal because it would make no sense whatsoever....so they are not. Just like it would make no sense for lvl 20s and 40s to be equal. This is already done by people. Who is this magical "you"? Are you talking about the % of the playerbase that reads the builds and powers section of the forums and then copies and plays a build? Are you actually serious?
It has plenty of weight in a world where most people don't actually do that. So what if it's difficult? Why would it have to be easy? That's not a problem. Your imaginary person might not care about the long run. People can decide for themselves if they want to make the purchase. If they don't then they won't and the company will try to sell them something different.
Your evaluation of what's "better" for the long run for this arbitrary person is entirely arbitrary.
A good argument for paid ATs is that they sell well. End of story. Their existence does not require any more justification than "generates sustainable revenue".
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Yes, but they could generate more revenue by being well crafted and good to play. CO has always been about accessorising the build with costume slots, costume pieces, vehicles, devices and items - keep people playing, they'll keep spending money. Many of the Premium ATs would feel like a bad investment ( and some wouldn't, fair play, but you don't really know until you've spent your money).
ATs were completely unbalanced before, not just in relation to FFs, but in relation to other ATs even. The DR bug made DPS ATs insanely strong, far stronger than was ever intended. This actually resulted in some rather bad balance changes for some of the newer content. Endgame content got overturned in a few of the balance passes to compensate for DPS ATs. The DR bug also had a hand in over nerfing some powers in previous power passes... It was overall bad for the game.
Now that the DR bug is being fixed, powers can be properly balanced without compensating for AT DR. Some ATs are still not balanced, but most of those ATs haven't even recieved a balance pass... most notably, Behemoth and Impulse. The devs have stated that they are still working on balancing and that fixing the DR bug is just one much needed step in the process. Now that it's out of the way they can properly balance stuff how it was INTENDED to be to begin with.
The only one here who seems to not actually care about balance, is you.
Of course they could generate more revenue from some people by being better for those people. But better for who? Without that, it's just as easy to claim that they're already fantastic.
So is it new players? For whom, simple rotations and direction is most important? Who already have plenty to accessorize?
Is it players who already 1 or 2 lvl 40s and are looking at playing new characters, but want something more or different and would like customize their gameplay exprience?
Is it veterans that have a constant need for new accessories, gear, and require absolute freedom with regards to customizing their powers?
And that's just a sample of how we could try to define the buyer, but if the goal is to talk about how ATs could generate more revenue then the first place to start is by asking "from who" and "what do they want". Answers like "everyone" or "most people" don't actually help with anything.
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1. So, in order to get people interested in my action figure store I pick 5 of my action figures which I give to people for free when they walk in the door - they're not any worse than the rest, they're just the 5 I think might have some general appeal or would make the best impact. Would it be reasonable for these people to complain when I hand them free action figures because the other 45 action figures I don't give away for free are the same as the ones I gave for free?
2. I also make custom action figures for people. Not only are they customized, but I have pieces that I can use for them that aren't available for the other premade action figures - I can also add more individual pieces to them than the premade ones, so they have more total pieces on them. They cost more than the premade action figures as well, a little over twice as much. Would it be reasonable for people to demand that I make premade action figures using the special custom-only pieces, and that I add more pieces to all existing premade action figures? If I gave in to these demands, would it be reasonable for me to raise the price of premade action figures since they now contain some of the features I normally charge more for?
3. I have a benefits program where every day you visit my store I put a sticker on a card, and after you have enough stickers you get a custom action figure for free. Conversely you can also turn in your card early for a discount on a custom action figure. Does this benefits program invalidate the difference between premade and custom action figures?
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Would it be reasonable for these people to complain when I hand them free action figures because the other 45 action figures I don't give away for free are the same as the ones I gave for free?
Depends. If you're a collector who only wants to own the object (rather than have it for its efficacy or utility) then you'd have no problem with the other Action figures having the same qualities, but not being free. You'd be grateful for the freebie. However if you want an item and are judging it by its utility, then expectation is that the more expensive item will be materially better than the free one. Otherwise, why are they charging you for it?
I get how it came about.... once nothing in the game was free, then it became F2P and they didn't want to make all the ATs free. That makes business sense, and like with the action figures, all the players at that time were just grateful for the freebie. But everyone else that came after expected that paid items would be materially better than the free ones. And some aren't. Needs fixing.
It is not possible to turn an AT into a FF with zen.
If people choose not to build their characters properly, then that's their choice. They can do that with ATs, too, by getting rid of all their powers. I wasn't referring to you with that comment.
Before the patch, every class had something over every other class (however situational it might have been). One could therefore claim asymmetrical balance. That is no longer possible. Therefore, the game is less balanced than before. Now, if ATs were to get two extra powers and role-switching like we've been discussing, then the game could very well come out better in terms of balance that it was before any of the changes. But that's a hypothetical future, not the actual present. Action Figures are not games. The concept of balance, which is what this whole thing is about, doesn't apply to action figures.
You keep trying to explain to me something I already know. Cryptic decided to take the game in a certain direction, and the AT DR didn't fit that vision. There's nothing complicated about it, and as a business they have the right to do whatever they want with their product. They have the right to delete every character and force everyone to start anew, but with every power made carrot-themed and every enemy transformed into a radioactive kitten that spits physics equations at us.
None of that has anything to do with what I'm saying. Cryptic has spent a year changing many things in the name of balance. Change for the sake of change would normally be considered a bad thing (in terms of how "good" the game is), but change for the sake of balance is acceptable to a person who cares about balance. However, what we just had was change that decreased balance. So, to a person that cared about balance, the game was hurt by the change. But, to a person that didn't care about balance in the first place, all the other changes would be negative. A person who valued multiple concerns, with balance being one of them, would also view it as negative because it sacrificed one of their concerns when it was possible to satisfy them all.
All three positions lead to the conclusion that the current situation is negative (or more accurately, less positive than the game would have been otherwise).
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I would like to hear what Reaper thinks about how the DR bug affected ATs inequally. Thus making ATs that should have been approximately equal anything but.
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1) Ignorant, willingly or otherwise, of the game's F2P business model and how FF and ATs correlate to it.
2) Ignorant, willingly or otherwise, of complexities involved with balancing a fully open-ended freeform class system against an entirely static one.
3) Want ATs to be on par with FF so that they have more of a reason to avoid paying for gold or FF slots altogether.
I mean, you can argue theoretically that such a balance should exist and repeat the same arguments over and over in the same thread over many pages, but the facts that remain show that it's just not doable.
I find the free ATs very interesting to still play alongside FFs. Honestly, the premium AT that you pay for shouldn't be inferior than a FF you pay for IMO.
The one issue I have with FF is that the amount of self healing they have access too can trivialize the experience of players that use healers or tanks whether they are ATs or FFS.
Other than that complaint from me balance changes the last year or so have been reasonable and on point.
Omicron - Lvl 4x - Mind
Emerald Myst - Lvl 2x - Claws/Fighting Hybrid
Epsilon - Lvl 2x - Blade
Asterius - Lvl 1x - Electric/Void Hybrid
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Such a balance already existed, and could easily be done again through mechanisms that have been discussed in this very thread, some of which wouldn't even threaten FFs as the preferred choice in any way. To claim that it cannot be done is demonstrably false. We've been over this.
What strawman? You continue to show a fascinating level of ignorance and stubborness with how you continue to show a complete disregard for how this game is structured as a product to be sold to people and exactly why the F2P matrix exists. Yeah sure, and I've yet to see your practical example of how a universal balance between FF and AT can be achieved. Detail how it's done through all powersets, especially when a FF can mix-and-match as they please while AT is severely much more restricted in that aspect. Give us this brilliant solution to the challenges that devs and players alike have been struggling to tackle ever since the game launched. Talk is cheap.
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ATs' DR bug was an exploit and it was never good neither Healthy for the game, GET OVER IT
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."