Ive always seen it as ATs are basic balanced for the basic game....FF is advanced settings for people who want to build to their specifications because they plan to get the most out of the game. (easy setup - advanced settings) like you see even in most electronics. ATs can still be fun in the basic parts of the game, they are relevant for F2P players, those who want to pay for more content are given more power, since the content is more of a challenge. It depends on what suits you/how much you want out of the game.
ATs are sufficient for casual players FF are needed for more regular/serious players
Actually, the game started at FF only, there were no ATs, and no thought of ATs in the original build. The original balance of the game was around FFs. There was no such thing as ATs. ATs were a much later addition and just sort of shoved in to give something to play for free. It was literally the worst idea in terms of game design, but F2P seems to be the way everything is going these days, so the owners felt it had to be done to maintain viability.
id say in some cases survivability...if they wont shell out cash for subs, you can tease them with vanity items to nickle and dime them with. SWTOR was the worse game ive seen for that, but they shouldnt of needed to resort to such cheap tactics given their following. but champs I give them space to keep their head above the water given their budget they are doing quite well, the devs work is appreciated, and the game has things about it i enjoy others do not that keeps me coming back. This is why im supporting them so much....though the one nerfing my builds id like to tell off, but im glad they are still going. This game needs more attention then the main office is giving it.
I didnt begin playing until a while after it became F2P, some friends from STO lured me here, but i was still big into sto at the time and didnt really get into it until later on, when i seen what they had here as far as customisation i shelled out 300 for the lifetime, CatStar was my first in STO and in Champs too, hes still my pvp/adventurepack Cat. I plan to stay here so long as the game lasts...or my computer, which ever comes first!
Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
What boggles my mind is people believe this is a great title that is well maintained and ran. It truely isn't if it was it would be experiencing true growth and would have more than a skeleton crew development wise working on it.
And for the record statistically a Freeform is always better than a Archtype solely for reason of they get two more powers than the AT. Jesus christ people this **** ain't rocket science.
Please prove to me otherwise that this is incorrect assumption. But respond while you can before forum facists remove my post.
I get your point, but lets all just calm down here and not loose our cool. I realize its easily done, sometimes people push my buttons too but it never does help to go off on people because then they just stop hearing you all together and the last thing we need is more drama.
A failing we have all suffered is becoming adversarial with out any redemption. You can never boast over anything if the peace is never regain between two people again. Its an anchor in your stomach that you will carry around in you making you more bitter and irritable until you become unfriendly to everyone you meet. Getting in the last word and it not being forgiveness is a shame.
...i speak to everyone, Im guilty of it here too.
Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
"Partially class-based" isn't a thing. It either is or it isn't.
Can you back up this claim? Partially is a word, that has a meaning. Class-based is a phrase that has a meaning. Put them together and they form the phrase "Partially class-based", which means that part of a system conforms to the idea of a class-based system, and part of it does not. Here, Archetypes are the part that conforms to the idea of a class-based system, and Freeforms are the part that does not. Looks like the phrase is perfectly valid.
I'm not arguing that balance doesn't matter. I'm saying that it does matter. But balance demands a niche for every class. By claiming otherwise, you are effectively arguing that balance doesn't matter, whether you realize it or not.
Your definition of niche seems to be unclear. Now, most people would point out that each and every archetype does in fact have a niche - tanking, dpsing, support, even crowd control. Some ATs have access to multiple of these. So going by that definition, each class in the game does have a niche.
FYI - FFs have access to the exact same niches, so on the topic of niches, FFs and ATs are equal.
PS - don't bother trying to do that thing where you try to tell people what their argument is, nobody's biting. Nobody here is accidentally arguing that balance is a bad thing, and that's quite frankly an insulting assertion to make.
Mechanics do indeed define what is good balance. What you're failing to recognize is that design intent is not the same as mechanics.
Of course it's not, how can intent, which is a thought process, be the same thing as game mechanics, which are a set of rules? Were you under the impression that anybody was making the argument that they're the same thing?
The relation between the two is that intent determines the form the mechanics take, and the mechanics in turn define what balance is based on how they need to function for the game to have the intended dynamic.
"Partially class-based" isn't a thing. It either is or it isn't.
Can you back up this claim? Partially is a word, that has a meaning. Class-based is a phrase that has a meaning. Put them together and they form the phrase "Partially class-based", which means that part of a system conforms to the idea of a class-based system, and part of it does not. Here, Archetypes are the part that conforms to the idea of a class-based system, and Freeforms are the part that does not. Looks like the phrase is perfectly valid.
I'm not arguing that balance doesn't matter. I'm saying that it does matter. But balance demands a niche for every class. By claiming otherwise, you are effectively arguing that balance doesn't matter, whether you realize it or not.
Your definition of niche seems to be unclear. Now, most people would point out that each and every archetype does in fact have a niche - tanking, dpsing, support, even crowd control. Some ATs have access to multiple of these. So going by that definition, each class in the game does have a niche.
FYI - FFs have access to the exact same niches, so on the topic of niches, FFs and ATs are equal.
PS - don't bother trying to do that thing where you try to tell people what their argument is, nobody's biting. Nobody here is accidentally arguing that balance is a bad thing, and that's quite frankly an insulting assertion to make.
Mechanics do indeed define what is good balance. What you're failing to recognize is that design intent is not the same as mechanics.
Of course it's not, how can intent, which is a thought process, be the same thing as game mechanics, which are a set of rules? Were you under the impression that anybody was making the argument that they're the same thing?
The relation between the two is that intent determines the form the mechanics take, and the mechanics in turn define what balance is based on how they need to function for the game to have the intended dynamic.
But, if you insist on continuing this, sure, because once again, you've shot yourself in the foot. Yes, Cryptic makes money from people who don't want to jump through the hoops. Which is why they're fine with allowing for free FFs. Which just leads back to the balance point that you conveniently ignored.
Free FF slots are in (intentional) restricted limited supply and are obviously meant as goodwill rewards. That's all there is to them. If your argument is that methods of getting FF slots for free is the end result of people actually paying for FF slots or gold, then you probably didn't realize beforehand that it would only make paid-for FF a whole lot more valuable and the main focus of Cryptic's business model, if it were actually true anyway and not just your own personal assumption (which I'm pretty sure is the case)
Balance point? You mean this mystical laughably-idealistic game balance between FFs and ATs that's somehow supposed to exist? I already addressed it in page one of this thread. There is never going to be "balance" between FFs and ATs, because it would be a stupid business decision on Cryptic's part to trivialize paid-for FF in such a manner.
I've already explained previously that the developer intent argument is not an honest one.
Then you might need to wait a whole lot longer for an honest answer that you personally think its honest and not the unmitigated truth that the game exists and as a business and a business exists to be profitable. Balance disparity between ATs and FFs with ATs getting the shorter end of the stick gives the incentive of getting people to invest money in the game.
I mean, it's fine if you personally think it's a dishonest business practice, but the business model is exactly that and has kept the business running for this many years now.
But, if you insist on continuing this, sure, because once again, you've shot yourself in the foot. Yes, Cryptic makes money from people who don't want to jump through the hoops. Which is why they're fine with allowing for free FFs. Which just leads back to the balance point that you conveniently ignored.
Free FF slots are in (intentional) restricted limited supply and are obviously meant as goodwill rewards. That's all there is to them. If your argument is that methods of getting FF slots for free is the end result of people actually paying for FF slots or gold, then you probably didn't realize beforehand that it would only make paid-for FF a whole lot more valuable and the main focus of Cryptic's business model, if it were actually true anyway and not just your own personal assumption (which I'm pretty sure is the case)
Balance point? You mean this mystical laughably-idealistic game balance between FFs and ATs that's somehow supposed to exist? I already addressed it in page one of this thread. There is never going to be "balance" between FFs and ATs, because it would be a stupid business decision on Cryptic's part to trivialize paid-for FF in such a manner.
I've already explained previously that the developer intent argument is not an honest one.
Then you might need to wait a whole lot longer for an honest answer that you personally think its honest and not the unmitigated truth that the game exists and as a business and a business exists to be profitable. Balance disparity between ATs and FFs with ATs getting the shorter end of the stick gives the incentive of getting people to invest money in the game.
I mean, it's fine if you personally think it's a dishonest business practice, but the business model is exactly that and has kept the business running for this many years now.
But, if you insist on continuing this, sure, because once again, you've shot yourself in the foot. Yes, Cryptic makes money from people who don't want to jump through the hoops. Which is why they're fine with allowing for free FFs. Which just leads back to the balance point that you conveniently ignored.
Free FF slots are in (intentional) restricted limited supply and are obviously meant as goodwill rewards. That's all there is to them. If your argument is that methods of getting FF slots for free is the end result of people actually paying for FF slots or gold, then you probably didn't realize beforehand that it would only make paid-for FF a whole lot more valuable and the main focus of Cryptic's business model, if it were actually true anyway and not just your own personal assumption (which I'm pretty sure is the case)
Balance point? You mean this mystical laughably-idealistic game balance between FFs and ATs that's somehow supposed to exist? I already addressed it in page one of this thread. There is never going to be "balance" between FFs and ATs, because it would be a stupid business decision on Cryptic's part to trivialize paid-for FF in such a manner.
I've already explained previously that the developer intent argument is not an honest one.
Then you might need to wait a whole lot longer for an honest answer that you personally think its honest and not the unmitigated truth that the game exists and as a business and a business exists to be profitable. Balance disparity between ATs and FFs with ATs getting the shorter end of the stick gives the incentive of getting people to invest money in the game.
I mean, it's fine if you personally think it's a dishonest business practice, but the business model is exactly that and has kept the business running for this many years now.
But, if you insist on continuing this, sure, because once again, you've shot yourself in the foot. Yes, Cryptic makes money from people who don't want to jump through the hoops. Which is why they're fine with allowing for free FFs. Which just leads back to the balance point that you conveniently ignored.
Free FF slots are in (intentional) restricted limited supply and are obviously meant as goodwill rewards. That's all there is to them. If your argument is that methods of getting FF slots for free is the end result of people actually paying for FF slots or gold, then you probably didn't realize beforehand that it would only make paid-for FF a whole lot more valuable and the main focus of Cryptic's business model, if it were actually true anyway and not just your own personal assumption (which I'm pretty sure is the case)
Balance point? You mean this mystical laughably-idealistic game balance between FFs and ATs that's somehow supposed to exist? I already addressed it in page one of this thread. There is never going to be "balance" between FFs and ATs, because it would be a stupid business decision on Cryptic's part to trivialize paid-for FF in such a manner.
I've already explained previously that the developer intent argument is not an honest one.
Then you might need to wait a whole lot longer for an honest answer that you personally think its honest and not the unmitigated truth that the game exists and as a business and a business exists to be profitable. Balance disparity between ATs and FFs with ATs getting the shorter end of the stick gives the incentive of getting people to invest money in the game.
I mean, it's fine if you personally think it's a dishonest business practice, but the business model is exactly that and has kept the business running for this many years now.
But, if you insist on continuing this, sure, because once again, you've shot yourself in the foot. Yes, Cryptic makes money from people who don't want to jump through the hoops. Which is why they're fine with allowing for free FFs. Which just leads back to the balance point that you conveniently ignored.
Free FF slots are in (intentional) restricted limited supply and are obviously meant as goodwill rewards. That's all there is to them. If your argument is that methods of getting FF slots for free is the end result of people actually paying for FF slots or gold, then you probably didn't realize beforehand that it would only make paid-for FF a whole lot more valuable and the main focus of Cryptic's business model, if it were actually true anyway and not just your own personal assumption (which I'm pretty sure is the case)
Balance point? You mean this mystical laughably-idealistic game balance between FFs and ATs that's somehow supposed to exist? I already addressed it in page one of this thread. There is never going to be "balance" between FFs and ATs, because it would be a stupid business decision on Cryptic's part to trivialize paid-for FF in such a manner.
I've already explained previously that the developer intent argument is not an honest one.
Then you might need to wait a whole lot longer for an honest answer that you personally think its honest and not the unmitigated truth that the game exists and as a business and a business exists to be profitable. Balance disparity between ATs and FFs with ATs getting the shorter end of the stick gives the incentive of getting people to invest money in the game.
I mean, it's fine if you personally think it's a dishonest business practice, but the business model is exactly that and has kept the business running for this many years now.
I doubt cryptic will ever get rid of AT's -- since most of them are Premium and cost money. If you noticed there was ramp-up in new premium AT's being launched. I doubt that was for gold subscribers --- it was more than likely another thing to sell to silvers.
AT's are a nice/cheap option to play the game for the vast majority of content. I'd love to know how well they sell, my guess is they sell better than many of us think they do.
This is RiverOcean's 2nd Account. Can't combine my STO and CO accounts for some weird reason.
Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
Free FF slots are in (intentional) restricted limited supply and are obviously meant as goodwill rewards. That's all there is to them. If your argument is that methods of getting FF slots for free is the end result of people actually paying for FF slots or gold, then you probably didn't realize beforehand that it would only make paid-for FF a whole lot more valuable and the main focus of Cryptic's business model, if it were actually true anyway and not just your own personal assumption (which I'm pretty sure is the case)
Balance point? You mean this mystical laughably-idealistic game balance between FFs and ATs that's somehow supposed to exist? I already addressed it in page one of this thread. There is never going to be "balance" between FFs and ATs, because it would be a stupid business decision on Cryptic's part to trivialize paid-for FF in such a manner.
I mean, it's fine if you personally think it's a dishonest business practice, but the business model is exactly that and has kept the business running for this many years now.
At no point have I claimed that the ability to get free FF slots is the inevitable result of paid ones. I only pointed out that the ability to get them (and the fact that golds can access ATs) means that money can't be used as a justification for imbalance. Strawman fallacy.
Cryptic isn't the one making a dishonest argument. At no point have I claimed Cryptic was employing dishonest business practices. Strawman fallacy again.
We already had balance between ATs and FFs before the patch. One could easily envision a scenario where ATs have additional features if played by a subscriber (compared to the same AT played by a silver), much like how LTSs and long-term subscribers can access the VIP area. There are even ways to balance the two without threatening FF mechanical superiority. We've been over all of this already. Your claim that balance is impossible is, and always has been, bunk.
Balance isn't based on opinion. It's based on fact.
Sort of. The key thing that you're missing is that games generally only pick specific aspects of the game that they actually want to balance. For example, in most content there is no effort made to make sure that a level 20 and a level 40 are equal, or that a character using green gear is equal to someone using purple gear. That's because the higher level, better geared character is supposed to be better.
The game designers are not trying to balance AT vs FF. Thus, it is not a balancing failure when they do not do so.
The level 20 character can become a level 40 one. The character with green gear can get purple gear. Changing classes is a different beast; one that changes a character on a more fundamental level and isn't possible without monetary investment. One could even argue that changing classes effectively changes the character into a completely different one, which is a much harder argument to make for gear.
Putting that aside, I can dismiss your argument on the basis that it leads to absurd conclusions. Specifically, if refusal to balance things is not a balancing failure, then that would mean the game was better before all the balance passes (since they were effectively refusing to balance any powers), which in turn defeats the entire purpose of balancing.
In any case, the balancing "failure" here isn't so much that they chose not to balance ATs and FFs, but rather that they did so and then backtracked. It would be equivalent to a scenario where they somehow successfully balanced all FF builds against one another by accident and then added a power that unbalanced everything again.
But really, none of that matters. The specific point I've been making this whole time is that the game is less balanced than it was before. In trying to argue that it is positive or negative or what-have-you, you're effectively agreeing with me on that point.
At no point have I claimed that the ability to get free FF slots is the inevitable result of paid ones. I only pointed out that the ability to get them (and the fact that golds can access ATs) means that money can't be used as a justification for imbalance. Strawman fallacy.
Actually the simple FACT that they are paid content is a factor of how to balance them. The fact that you can obtain one without paying if you put in the time and effort to do so doesn't alter that fact. They are paid content and as such are designed with an intrinsic value. AT were innately inferior to FF by design to encourage new Silver account players to go Gold when F2P went live. However, an error in their coding resulted in them outputting more damage than identical FFs.
We already had balance between ATs and FFs before the patch. One could easily envision a scenario where ATs have additional features if played by a subscriber (compared to the same AT played by a silver), much like how LTSs and long-term subscribers can access the VIP area. There are even ways to balance the two without threatening FF mechanical superiority. We've been over all of this already. Your claim that balance is impossible is, and always has been, bunk.
In any case, the balancing "failure" here isn't so much that they chose not to balance ATs and FFs, but rather that they did so and then backtracked. It would be equivalent to a scenario where they somehow successfully balanced all FF builds against one another by accident and then added a power that unbalanced everything again.
But really, none of that matters. The specific point I've been making this whole time is that the game is less balanced than it was before. In trying to argue that it is positive or negative or what-have-you, you're effectively agreeing with me on that point.
You're running on a huge misconception here. There wasn't any balance between ATs and FFs before the patch. The error that made ATs ignore DR was ignored for a long time due to the large number of overpowered and blatantly unbalanced powers that were only available to FF. With all the balance passes we've seen over the last couple years ALL of those powers have been either nerfed into the ground or properly balanced. This resulted in the DR bug on ATs becoming a true balance issue as it put ATs at a point of being undeniably superior to FFs. By fixing the DR bug it brings ATs back down to the level that FFs have been lowered to over the past few years. Additionally they are only fixing the DR bug on ATs that have had their builds reviewed. The ATs that are still underpowered and haven't been reviewed yet still benefit from it for the time being.
I've decided none of us can back up any of our claims. As humans we like to speak upon things usually incorrectly about these things. Just seems waste of server's data limitations to continue this topic which if you actually pay attention is just going in redundant circles.
Dude, just stop already. The thread is not going to be closed or abandoned just because you are tired of seeing it, if you don't want to see it anymore, just stop coming to it already.
As for myself I am attempting to enact this change. I wish you all the best in your gaming lives and the real ones offline. Kinda funny we often forget this is just a game and not some great cause for the betterment of mankind.
It's going to be really funny if you post again after this.
I've decided none of us can back up any of our claims. As humans we like to speak upon things usually incorrectly about these things. Just seems waste of server's data limitations to continue this topic which if you actually pay attention is just going in redundant circles.
And on the topic of balance to me the ideal of a balancing point is all in the mind of the person observing or commenting on something. In other words common ground is rarely if ever found about discussions. This fact of mankind will never change until we all change ourselves from the inside out.
As for myself I am attempting to enact this change. I wish you all the best in your gaming lives and the real ones offline. Kinda funny we often forget this is just a game and not some great cause for the betterment of mankind.
In the end we are all just opinions that wish to be truths. This can never happen due to our own self inflicted Egos. So yeah the changing the inner self thing we all need to work on it me more than most.
Yeah no. Many folks HAVE backed up their claims with evidence and the actual history of this game. Just cause 1 or 2 certain people refuse to understand that the devs have final say on balance, and that FF was never meant to be balanced against ATs, doesn't excuse your first line from being absolute bull$%^&.
The devs aim to fix bugs and balance the game. The AT DR issue was an outlier and was properly rectified. You can spin it anyway you like but there it is.
Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
have the devs actually said they don't want or FFs and ATs to be balanced? I don't think I've heard about it.
The devs have said that the lack of DR on ATs is a bug, and absent that bug ATs are clearly inferior, and "they have two fewer powers" is not the type of thing you do by accident.
have the devs actually said they don't want or FFs and ATs to be balanced? I don't think I've heard about it.
The devs have said that the lack of DR on ATs is a bug, and absent that bug ATs are clearly inferior, and "they have two fewer powers" is not the type of thing you do by accident.
Actually... the devs said the lack of DR on ATs is a bug, and the ATs that haven't had their balance pass will continue to benefit from that bug until they get their pass so that they won't be inferior... they do actually intend to balance them. They even asked for feedback on the ATs that have had their passes now that they have had the DR bug fixed to see if any further adjustments are needed.
The 2 fewer powers thing though will always prevent them from being balanced... until they do away with that stupid limitation
Actually... the devs said the lack of DR on ATs is a bug, and the ATs that haven't had their balance pass will continue to benefit from that bug until they get their pass so that they won't be inferior...
In comparison to other ATs. Updated ATs are not as good as FF.
This is partially why I went LTS earlier last year. No need to worry about an AT, because I never will play another AT. I played ATs for awhile back when I first started because I didn't know the game and FF's. Now that I do, I never play them. I do apologize if this makes me sound conceded, it's more or less a 'thank goodness I chose to go LT' blurb
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
The whole "two less powers thing" happened because at that point (Level 32?) many FF builds are complete, at the very least that was true at the time when the ATs were first conceived. I remember the original article saying something along those lines. I'm not saying that's the only reason, but I also don't find this limitation unreasonable either.
The only thing that really bothers me about ATs are when their builds aren't efficient. It doesn't have anything to do with being able to keep up with FF, because an average FF player will probably still be at the same potential level as a good or even decent AT. Heck, AT builds don't even have to be optimal for what they are trying to do, but they need to at least not be frustrating. The Mind's leveling path is frustrating. The Grimoire in Hybrid role is frustrating. This is what FF has above ATs, if you don't like your frustrating build as an FF, you can just change it. ATs should be cohesive, but some of them just aren't, and that's the thing that really drags down ATs as a whole.
That said, ATs are best for people who are either learning or who are not wanting to be bothered with the complexity of the Freeform system. Sometimes I just want to play the game without having to worry if this stat is better over that stat or if suddenly the build I had planned is no longer making any sense (I am literally struggling with this on a toon and it is driving me insane). I can just jump right in and enjoy myself with an AT. I think that's the greatest appeal of them. They offer an alternative gameplay style, and one that is less stressful in my opinion. At the very least less stressful if you aren't competing with others, or in the case of some ATs, trying to run end game (which ATs should really be tweaked accordingly for going forward).
I say stuff and I say things, sometimes together but only when I'm feeling adventurous.
This resulted in the DR bug on ATs becoming a true balance issue as it put ATs at a point of being undeniably superior to FFs.
This statement is false. They could inflict more damage, but FFs still possessed superiority in the vast majority of areas, simply due to their ability to optimize their builds, switch roles as needed, and take two additional powers.
Actually the simple FACT that they are paid content is a factor of how to balance them. The fact that you can obtain one without paying if you put in the time and effort to do so doesn't alter that fact. They are paid content and as such are designed with an intrinsic value. AT were innately inferior to FF by design to encourage new Silver account players to go Gold when F2P went live. However, an error in their coding resulted in them outputting more damage than identical FFs.
Except that, again, FF isn't necessarily paid content. And even if it was, it would still be a dubious argument, given things like gold access to ATs.
At this point, though, you're talking past me. I'm pointing out that the game is unbalanced now, and you're pointing out that it's intentionally so. That doesn't change my point.
Just cause 1 or 2 certain people refuse to understand that the devs have final say on balance, and that FF was never meant to be balanced against ATs,
If the devs (or anyone, for that matter) had final say on balance, there would be no balance discussions. Your statement also contradicts itself. If something is intentionally unbalanced now, then it's not balanced, now is it?
What you're trying to claim is that things are unbalanced in a positive way, which is...like, your opinion, man. Liking or disliking the imbalance doesn't change the fact that it is an imbalance.
have the devs actually said they don't want or FFs and ATs to be balanced? I don't think I've heard about it.
Sort of.
Historically, ATs have had two things going for them: their own PvP queues (which, for all intents and purposes, aren't really a thing any more), and the DR bug. Kaiserin has said officially that ATs are intended to have the same DR as FFs. So, unless they have some plans for ATs in the future that we don't know about or just don't know what they're doing (neither of which seems particularly likely), we can conclude that they most likely intend ATs to be inferior.
If the devs (or anyone, for that matter) had final say on balance, there would be no balance discussions. Your statement also contradicts itself. If something is intentionally unbalanced now, then it's not balanced, now is it?
What you're trying to claim is that things are unbalanced in a positive way, which is...like, your opinion, man. Liking or disliking the imbalance doesn't change the fact that it is an imbalance.
I don't think anyone is arguing that AT vs FF is balanced. Note, however, the title of this thread is not "is there a reason", it's "should there be a reason".
ATs(most of them) are free for a reason. It's more like the free-trial, or demo-mode. Where you can get upgraded ones(void, other various premium ones), so that you can get a taste, with the: you're this, but you could be this if you sub, or buy FF slots!
Actually... the devs said the lack of DR on ATs is a bug, and the ATs that haven't had their balance pass will continue to benefit from that bug until they get their pass so that they won't be inferior...
In comparison to other ATs. Updated ATs are not as good as FF.
What you're trying to claim is that things are unbalanced in a positive way, which is...like, your opinion, man. Liking or disliking the imbalance doesn't change the fact that it is an imbalance.
You misunderstand what Darqaura2 said - he's not saying that unbalanced is balanced. He's saying that FFs power level is not balanced against AT power level - i.e. when they put FF on the scale, they didn't put AT on the other side of the scale, as there was never any intent to make them equal since that's not the intended balance between the two options.
You're mixing up the usage of the terms - when he writes "FF was never meant to be balanced against ATs" he is not using the adjective form, he is using the verb form. i.e. when the devs balanced(verb) ATs and FFs, they purposely made them unequal in several ways because that was how to make them balanced(adj) according to the intent of the AT system.
What you're trying to claim is that things are unbalanced in a positive way, which is...like, your opinion, man. Liking or disliking the imbalance doesn't change the fact that it is an imbalance.
You misunderstand what Darqaura2 said - he's not saying that unbalanced is balanced. He's saying that FFs power level is not balanced against AT power level - i.e. when they put FF on the scale, they didn't put AT on the other side of the scale, as there was never any intent to make them equal since that's not the intended balance between the two options.
You're mixing up the usage of the terms - when he writes "FF was never meant to be balanced against ATs" he is not using the adjective form, he is using the verb form. i.e. when the devs balanced(verb) ATs and FFs, they purposely made them unequal in several ways because that was how to make them balanced(adj) according to the intent of the AT system.
They should just do away with ATs. They totally ruin the spirit of the game.
Not really. ATs exist for a specific reason. As a free to play option, mainly.
You have no idea how many new players would be brought in by making basic freeform options for everyone, how many money spending new players even,
Even just giving everyone silver account one FF slot... not the way they did it before... but as an actual built in part of the silver account, there by default... all new, existing, and returning characters will have one FF slot available period... not a "login and claim during this month only" deal again... will bring in more players... I saw a ton of comments from people who missed the Free FF slot giveaway who were only interested in trying the game out because they could make a FF without paying anything... nearly all of which won't even try the game now since they missed out on it. The few that did still try left since they don't like the AT system... however ATs certainly shouldn't be removed outright... they really need to be overhauled, yes... but there is an audience for them and there are people who won't play FF even if you give it to them for free but will play ATs and are even willing to buy more of them.
Even just giving everyone silver account one FF slot... not the way they did it before... but as an actual built in part of the silver account, there by default... all new, existing, and returning characters will have one FF slot available period... not a "login and claim during this month only" deal again... will bring in more players... I saw a ton of comments from people who missed the Free FF slot giveaway who were only interested in trying the game out because they could make a FF without paying anything... nearly all of which won't even try the game now since they missed out on it. The few that did still try left since they don't like the AT system... however ATs certainly shouldn't be removed outright... they really need to be overhauled, yes... but there is an audience for them and there are people who won't play FF even if you give it to them for free but will play ATs and are even willing to buy more of them.
Doing that would mean people can keep getting free freeforms without paying by just constantly creating new accounts, which in turn would not see an increase in revenue, if not actually cause a decrease in it. And it's quite easy to make multiple accounts for champions to cover that aspect. So no, you would not be increasing revenue, long or short term by offering this type of option.
Doing that would mean people can keep getting free freeforms without paying by just constantly creating new accounts, which in turn would not see an increase in revenue, if not actually cause a decrease in it. And it's quite easy to make multiple accounts for champions to cover that aspect. So no, you would not be increasing revenue, long or short term by offering this type of option.
And yet again you completely ignore the fact that a basic silver account with no purchases is rather limited on costumes. Most people won't just make multiple new accounts. People will buy costumes and stick to the account they bought them on. Do you see silvers creating 20 accounts for more ATs? Not really, because they have unlocked stuff on the one account and don't wish to buy/grind the unlocks again
ATs exist for a very good reason. Ashenshow ( I think that's his name? ) pointed out that very good reason somewhere in this thread. Long story short: Some people actually wanted a class-like option. They in fact said that the game would be much more attractive with that option in place and that they in fact didn't much like free form. That for me is enough to cement the place that ATs have in the game.
Shewolf also makes a good point about a free FF slot, as in a slot you get automatically upon making a new account. That reason is why I'm more in favor of a discount towards the first FF slot that a player gets. This strikes a nice middle ground, and gets that FF slot more quickly into the hands of players ( who actually want it ) without falling pray to the dreaded multi-accounter.
If fear of people making multiple accounts for an extra free FF is a real concern (which it honestly shouldn't be since they will still buy cosmetics, and if they are insistent on multiple accounts they will buy some of the same cosmetics multiple times) then they could just make it a "your first Level 40 unlocks one FF slot"
I think getting one FF slot after leveling a toon to 40 might be okay, maybe. Perhaps a discounted slot?
I think ATs are a good class-like option for many players. I still think they should have the same amount of powers as FF toons, and should have the "missing powers" common on FFs, like energy unlocks or self-heals. For a few ATs, there are choices between two powers that would synergize well, but you only get one of them.
All of that said, I don't have very strong feelings on the matter. Champs is one of the most generous FTP games out there.
And yet again you completely ignore the fact that a basic silver account with no purchases is rather limited on costumes. Most people won't just make multiple new accounts. People will buy costumes and stick to the account they bought them on. Do you see silvers creating 20 accounts for more ATs? Not really, because they have unlocked stuff on the one account and don't wish to buy/grind the unlocks again
And no I am not. You know how many people don't care about the costume? And like it or not, costumes are not actually the big ticket money item people think and often are made at a loss, not a gain for champs, hence more show up in lockboxes than they do on the C-Store. It's called basic economics. It's more than you actually give credit for. There are quite a few people that have multiple accounts just to bypass the character limit. So saying they wouldn't do it because of a costume is being a tad silly. If you gave a freeform away with no limitations on a new account every time, then the number of new accounts would explode, and not because it would entice other people, but because the current silvers would abuse the crap out of it just for freeform, and thus freeform would be given away at a loss.
And yet again you completely ignore the fact that a basic silver account with no purchases is rather limited on costumes. Most people won't just make multiple new accounts. People will buy costumes and stick to the account they bought them on. Do you see silvers creating 20 accounts for more ATs? Not really, because they have unlocked stuff on the one account and don't wish to buy/grind the unlocks again
And no I am not. You know how many people don't care about the costume? And like it or not, costumes are not actually the big ticket money item people think and often are made at a loss, not a gain for champs, hence more show up in lockboxes than they do on the C-Store. It's called basic economics. It's more than you actually give credit for. There are quite a few people that have multiple accounts just to bypass the character limit. So saying they wouldn't do it because of a costume is being a tad silly. If you gave a freeform away with no limitations on a new account every time, then the number of new accounts would explode, and not because it would entice other people, but because the current silvers would abuse the crap out of it just for freeform, and thus freeform would be given away at a loss.
I think your partially right, if given away I bet it would cause a couple extra accounts, but...raighn also has a point, the desire to look good will overcome and they will end up choosing just one account to build up and play on for the devices/outfits they unlocked....unless they like each enough to take the time and money to unlock more for each account, ether way, the promotion stands to not really loose anything, much like a carnival game or casino, the house always wins once you get more into the games.
Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
And yet again you completely ignore the fact that a basic silver account with no purchases is rather limited on costumes. Most people won't just make multiple new accounts. People will buy costumes and stick to the account they bought them on. Do you see silvers creating 20 accounts for more ATs? Not really, because they have unlocked stuff on the one account and don't wish to buy/grind the unlocks again
And no I am not. You know how many people don't care about the costume? And like it or not, costumes are not actually the big ticket money item people think and often are made at a loss, not a gain for champs, hence more show up in lockboxes than they do on the C-Store. It's called basic economics. It's more than you actually give credit for. There are quite a few people that have multiple accounts just to bypass the character limit. So saying they wouldn't do it because of a costume is being a tad silly. If you gave a freeform away with no limitations on a new account every time, then the number of new accounts would explode, and not because it would entice other people, but because the current silvers would abuse the crap out of it just for freeform, and thus freeform would be given away at a loss.
I think your partially right, if given away I bet it would cause a couple extra accounts, but...raighn also has a point, the desire to look good will overcome and they will end up choosing just one account to build up and play on for the devices/outfits they unlocked....unless they like each enough to take the time and money to unlock more for each account, ether way, the promotion stands to not really loose anything, much like a carnival game or casino, the house always wins once you get more into the games.
Also, truth be told, the vast majority of the people who would exploit it and make multiple accounts for free freeforms, wouldn't spend any money on the game to begin with. With or without the free slot those people are going to do the same thing and eventually leave the game. They are not worth considering, they are neither benefitial nor detrimental to the game. They are like the people who go to the mall for free samples but never actually buy anything, it doesnt hurt for them to be there nor does it really help either, they can be seen as adding to the crowd to make it feel more popular, but in reallity they contribute nothing wether they are there or not.
You offer something to get people into the door and keep them around. After you get them in, many of the newcommers will discover something they want and spend money. The ones who dont weren't ever going to in the first place. Cryptic tried giving away a singlr free freeform slot for anyone who signed in during a month once already, and it was succesful at bringing new players to the game, despite being extremely poorly advertised. Practically all of the advertisement was by word of mouth from the existing player base, people spammed the steam page for CO with new reviews about a free freeform slot, gaming news outlets were. Ombarded with news of it from players, many of which sites even stated in their coverage that of the promotional that it was brought to their attention by fans of the game. Even with the lack of advertisement on Cryptics part the promotionql proved successful. However, like many promotionals in the past, Cryptic dropped the ball and provided no followup updates to keep the new players, and instead actually scared alot of them off with a poorly timed giant nerf...
But anyways we've drifted off topic... we wont agree on this ever, so we can just agree to dissagree and move on with the actual topic...
On the topic of should there be a reason to play AT... yes... not everyone is going to be interested but the people who prefer a quick start into the game, simplisity, or just want to challenge themselves... ATs are there and available.
Comments
I didnt begin playing until a while after it became F2P, some friends from STO lured me here, but i was still big into sto at the time and didnt really get into it until later on, when i seen what they had here as far as customisation i shelled out 300 for the lifetime, CatStar was my first in STO and in Champs too, hes still my pvp/adventurepack Cat. I plan to stay here so long as the game lasts...or my computer, which ever comes first!
Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
A failing we have all suffered is becoming adversarial with out any redemption. You can never boast over anything if the peace is never regain between two people again. Its an anchor in your stomach that you will carry around in you making you more bitter and irritable until you become unfriendly to everyone you meet. Getting in the last word and it not being forgiveness is a shame.
...i speak to everyone, Im guilty of it here too.
Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
FYI - FFs have access to the exact same niches, so on the topic of niches, FFs and ATs are equal.
PS - don't bother trying to do that thing where you try to tell people what their argument is, nobody's biting. Nobody here is accidentally arguing that balance is a bad thing, and that's quite frankly an insulting assertion to make.
Of course it's not, how can intent, which is a thought process, be the same thing as game mechanics, which are a set of rules? Were you under the impression that anybody was making the argument that they're the same thing?
The relation between the two is that intent determines the form the mechanics take, and the mechanics in turn define what balance is based on how they need to function for the game to have the intended dynamic.
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FYI - FFs have access to the exact same niches, so on the topic of niches, FFs and ATs are equal.
PS - don't bother trying to do that thing where you try to tell people what their argument is, nobody's biting. Nobody here is accidentally arguing that balance is a bad thing, and that's quite frankly an insulting assertion to make.
Of course it's not, how can intent, which is a thought process, be the same thing as game mechanics, which are a set of rules? Were you under the impression that anybody was making the argument that they're the same thing?
The relation between the two is that intent determines the form the mechanics take, and the mechanics in turn define what balance is based on how they need to function for the game to have the intended dynamic.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Balance point? You mean this mystical laughably-idealistic game balance between FFs and ATs that's somehow supposed to exist? I already addressed it in page one of this thread. There is never going to be "balance" between FFs and ATs, because it would be a stupid business decision on Cryptic's part to trivialize paid-for FF in such a manner. Then you might need to wait a whole lot longer for an honest answer that you personally think its honest and not the unmitigated truth that the game exists and as a business and a business exists to be profitable. Balance disparity between ATs and FFs with ATs getting the shorter end of the stick gives the incentive of getting people to invest money in the game.
I mean, it's fine if you personally think it's a dishonest business practice, but the business model is exactly that and has kept the business running for this many years now.
Balance point? You mean this mystical laughably-idealistic game balance between FFs and ATs that's somehow supposed to exist? I already addressed it in page one of this thread. There is never going to be "balance" between FFs and ATs, because it would be a stupid business decision on Cryptic's part to trivialize paid-for FF in such a manner. Then you might need to wait a whole lot longer for an honest answer that you personally think its honest and not the unmitigated truth that the game exists and as a business and a business exists to be profitable. Balance disparity between ATs and FFs with ATs getting the shorter end of the stick gives the incentive of getting people to invest money in the game.
I mean, it's fine if you personally think it's a dishonest business practice, but the business model is exactly that and has kept the business running for this many years now.
Balance point? You mean this mystical laughably-idealistic game balance between FFs and ATs that's somehow supposed to exist? I already addressed it in page one of this thread. There is never going to be "balance" between FFs and ATs, because it would be a stupid business decision on Cryptic's part to trivialize paid-for FF in such a manner. Then you might need to wait a whole lot longer for an honest answer that you personally think its honest and not the unmitigated truth that the game exists and as a business and a business exists to be profitable. Balance disparity between ATs and FFs with ATs getting the shorter end of the stick gives the incentive of getting people to invest money in the game.
I mean, it's fine if you personally think it's a dishonest business practice, but the business model is exactly that and has kept the business running for this many years now.
Balance point? You mean this mystical laughably-idealistic game balance between FFs and ATs that's somehow supposed to exist? I already addressed it in page one of this thread. There is never going to be "balance" between FFs and ATs, because it would be a stupid business decision on Cryptic's part to trivialize paid-for FF in such a manner. Then you might need to wait a whole lot longer for an honest answer that you personally think its honest and not the unmitigated truth that the game exists and as a business and a business exists to be profitable. Balance disparity between ATs and FFs with ATs getting the shorter end of the stick gives the incentive of getting people to invest money in the game.
I mean, it's fine if you personally think it's a dishonest business practice, but the business model is exactly that and has kept the business running for this many years now.
Balance point? You mean this mystical laughably-idealistic game balance between FFs and ATs that's somehow supposed to exist? I already addressed it in page one of this thread. There is never going to be "balance" between FFs and ATs, because it would be a stupid business decision on Cryptic's part to trivialize paid-for FF in such a manner. Then you might need to wait a whole lot longer for an honest answer that you personally think its honest and not the unmitigated truth that the game exists and as a business and a business exists to be profitable. Balance disparity between ATs and FFs with ATs getting the shorter end of the stick gives the incentive of getting people to invest money in the game.
I mean, it's fine if you personally think it's a dishonest business practice, but the business model is exactly that and has kept the business running for this many years now.
AT's are a nice/cheap option to play the game for the vast majority of content. I'd love to know how well they sell, my guess is they sell better than many of us think they do.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Cryptic isn't the one making a dishonest argument. At no point have I claimed Cryptic was employing dishonest business practices. Strawman fallacy again.
We already had balance between ATs and FFs before the patch. One could easily envision a scenario where ATs have additional features if played by a subscriber (compared to the same AT played by a silver), much like how LTSs and long-term subscribers can access the VIP area. There are even ways to balance the two without threatening FF mechanical superiority. We've been over all of this already. Your claim that balance is impossible is, and always has been, bunk. The level 20 character can become a level 40 one. The character with green gear can get purple gear. Changing classes is a different beast; one that changes a character on a more fundamental level and isn't possible without monetary investment. One could even argue that changing classes effectively changes the character into a completely different one, which is a much harder argument to make for gear.
Putting that aside, I can dismiss your argument on the basis that it leads to absurd conclusions. Specifically, if refusal to balance things is not a balancing failure, then that would mean the game was better before all the balance passes (since they were effectively refusing to balance any powers), which in turn defeats the entire purpose of balancing.
In any case, the balancing "failure" here isn't so much that they chose not to balance ATs and FFs, but rather that they did so and then backtracked. It would be equivalent to a scenario where they somehow successfully balanced all FF builds against one another by accident and then added a power that unbalanced everything again.
But really, none of that matters. The specific point I've been making this whole time is that the game is less balanced than it was before. In trying to argue that it is positive or negative or what-have-you, you're effectively agreeing with me on that point.
You're running on a huge misconception here. There wasn't any balance between ATs and FFs before the patch. The error that made ATs ignore DR was ignored for a long time due to the large number of overpowered and blatantly unbalanced powers that were only available to FF. With all the balance passes we've seen over the last couple years ALL of those powers have been either nerfed into the ground or properly balanced. This resulted in the DR bug on ATs becoming a true balance issue as it put ATs at a point of being undeniably superior to FFs. By fixing the DR bug it brings ATs back down to the level that FFs have been lowered to over the past few years. Additionally they are only fixing the DR bug on ATs that have had their builds reviewed. The ATs that are still underpowered and haven't been reviewed yet still benefit from it for the time being.
Dude, just stop already. The thread is not going to be closed or abandoned just because you are tired of seeing it, if you don't want to see it anymore, just stop coming to it already.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
The devs aim to fix bugs and balance the game. The AT DR issue was an outlier and was properly rectified. You can spin it anyway you like but there it is.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
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Block timing explained
Actually... the devs said the lack of DR on ATs is a bug, and the ATs that haven't had their balance pass will continue to benefit from that bug until they get their pass so that they won't be inferior... they do actually intend to balance them. They even asked for feedback on the ATs that have had their passes now that they have had the DR bug fixed to see if any further adjustments are needed.
The 2 fewer powers thing though will always prevent them from being balanced... until they do away with that stupid limitation
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
42 40s, LTSer.
The only thing that really bothers me about ATs are when their builds aren't efficient. It doesn't have anything to do with being able to keep up with FF, because an average FF player will probably still be at the same potential level as a good or even decent AT. Heck, AT builds don't even have to be optimal for what they are trying to do, but they need to at least not be frustrating. The Mind's leveling path is frustrating. The Grimoire in Hybrid role is frustrating. This is what FF has above ATs, if you don't like your frustrating build as an FF, you can just change it. ATs should be cohesive, but some of them just aren't, and that's the thing that really drags down ATs as a whole.
That said, ATs are best for people who are either learning or who are not wanting to be bothered with the complexity of the Freeform system. Sometimes I just want to play the game without having to worry if this stat is better over that stat or if suddenly the build I had planned is no longer making any sense (I am literally struggling with this on a toon and it is driving me insane). I can just jump right in and enjoy myself with an AT. I think that's the greatest appeal of them. They offer an alternative gameplay style, and one that is less stressful in my opinion. At the very least less stressful if you aren't competing with others, or in the case of some ATs, trying to run end game (which ATs should really be tweaked accordingly for going forward).
I say stuff and I say things, sometimes together but only when I'm feeling adventurous.
I'm @blu8 in game!
At this point, though, you're talking past me. I'm pointing out that the game is unbalanced now, and you're pointing out that it's intentionally so. That doesn't change my point. If the devs (or anyone, for that matter) had final say on balance, there would be no balance discussions. Your statement also contradicts itself. If something is intentionally unbalanced now, then it's not balanced, now is it?
What you're trying to claim is that things are unbalanced in a positive way, which is...like, your opinion, man. Liking or disliking the imbalance doesn't change the fact that it is an imbalance.
Historically, ATs have had two things going for them: their own PvP queues (which, for all intents and purposes, aren't really a thing any more), and the DR bug. Kaiserin has said officially that ATs are intended to have the same DR as FFs. So, unless they have some plans for ATs in the future that we don't know about or just don't know what they're doing (neither of which seems particularly likely), we can conclude that they most likely intend ATs to be inferior.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
You're mixing up the usage of the terms - when he writes "FF was never meant to be balanced against ATs" he is not using the adjective form, he is using the verb form. i.e. when the devs balanced(verb) ATs and FFs, they purposely made them unequal in several ways because that was how to make them balanced(adj) according to the intent of the AT system.
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Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
Even just giving everyone silver account one FF slot... not the way they did it before... but as an actual built in part of the silver account, there by default... all new, existing, and returning characters will have one FF slot available period... not a "login and claim during this month only" deal again... will bring in more players... I saw a ton of comments from people who missed the Free FF slot giveaway who were only interested in trying the game out because they could make a FF without paying anything... nearly all of which won't even try the game now since they missed out on it. The few that did still try left since they don't like the AT system... however ATs certainly shouldn't be removed outright... they really need to be overhauled, yes... but there is an audience for them and there are people who won't play FF even if you give it to them for free but will play ATs and are even willing to buy more of them.
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And yet again you completely ignore the fact that a basic silver account with no purchases is rather limited on costumes. Most people won't just make multiple new accounts. People will buy costumes and stick to the account they bought them on. Do you see silvers creating 20 accounts for more ATs? Not really, because they have unlocked stuff on the one account and don't wish to buy/grind the unlocks again
Shewolf also makes a good point about a free FF slot, as in a slot you get automatically upon making a new account. That reason is why I'm more in favor of a discount towards the first FF slot that a player gets. This strikes a nice middle ground, and gets that FF slot more quickly into the hands of players ( who actually want it ) without falling pray to the dreaded multi-accounter.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I think ATs are a good class-like option for many players. I still think they should have the same amount of powers as FF toons, and should have the "missing powers" common on FFs, like energy unlocks or self-heals. For a few ATs, there are choices between two powers that would synergize well, but you only get one of them.
All of that said, I don't have very strong feelings on the matter. Champs is one of the most generous FTP games out there.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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https://www.engadget.com/2011/05/04/free-for-all-so-how-do-they-make-their-money/
Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
You offer something to get people into the door and keep them around. After you get them in, many of the newcommers will discover something they want and spend money. The ones who dont weren't ever going to in the first place. Cryptic tried giving away a singlr free freeform slot for anyone who signed in during a month once already, and it was succesful at bringing new players to the game, despite being extremely poorly advertised. Practically all of the advertisement was by word of mouth from the existing player base, people spammed the steam page for CO with new reviews about a free freeform slot, gaming news outlets were. Ombarded with news of it from players, many of which sites even stated in their coverage that of the promotional that it was brought to their attention by fans of the game. Even with the lack of advertisement on Cryptics part the promotionql proved successful. However, like many promotionals in the past, Cryptic dropped the ball and provided no followup updates to keep the new players, and instead actually scared alot of them off with a poorly timed giant nerf...
But anyways we've drifted off topic... we wont agree on this ever, so we can just agree to dissagree and move on with the actual topic...
On the topic of should there be a reason to play AT... yes... not everyone is going to be interested but the people who prefer a quick start into the game, simplisity, or just want to challenge themselves... ATs are there and available.