Umm, surely the devs knew that the suggested changes for JG were going to generate walls of negative criticism (justified or not)? If that's the case, and if they were never going to take that criticism into account (i.e. they had already decided what they are going to do before creating the thread and nothing was going to change their minds in any way shape or form), why bother starting a thread asking for feedback about it?
xrazamax already answered your questions quite nicely.
And it's perfectly acceptable to say I don't agree with the change.
I have and pretty much moving on now that I have my second piece of JG on my main tank/character. If they decrease the prices fine, but I've pretty much moved on. /shrug
And it's perfectly acceptable to say I don't agree with the change.
I have and pretty much moving on now that I have my second piece of JG on my main tank/character. If they decrease the prices fine, but I've pretty much moved on. /shrug
Sure you can say whatever you want. Just don't pull the move jaaz is attempting where he acts perturbed that the devs don't take his disagreement and run off to do what he wants just because they have a PTS thread asking for feed back on an upcoming change when they've repeatedly made it clear that what he's asking for is not going to happen. Or do, same result - people are just trying to answer the question of "why do they ask for feedback when they don't want feedback?" that people keep asking. Sometimes I get the feeling that people ask questions, not actually wanting an answer.
people are just trying to answer the question of "why do they ask for feedback when they don't want feedback?" that people keep asking. Sometimes I get the feeling that people ask questions, not actually wanting an answer.
So far, the only answers I've seen basically boil down to "**** you, that's why". Not exactly an answer I find satisfactory. They really are ignoring everyone's input after asking for it; only you and Pantagruel are in favor of making Champions a full-time job.
Dasher@Tool-box, donning his armor to prance into battle and blitz the enemy! No joke!
Cupid@Tool-box, stunningly radiant stag ready to play matchmaker between villain and arrow!
Vixon@Tool-box, frighteningly eager to summon despair for his adversaries!
Jebin Zedalu@Tool-box, elementalist weaponmaster. ...One of these things is not like the others!
Umm, surely the devs knew that the suggested changes for JG were going to generate walls of negative criticism (justified or not)? If that's the case, and if they were never going to take that criticism into account (i.e. they had already decided what they are going to do before creating the thread and nothing was going to change their minds in any way shape or form), why bother starting a thread asking for feedback about it?
xrazamax already answered your questions quite nicely.
Umm, surely the devs knew that the suggested changes for JG were going to generate walls of negative criticism (justified or not)? If that's the case, and if they were never going to take that criticism into account (i.e. they had already decided what they are going to do before creating the thread and nothing was going to change their minds in any way shape or form), why bother starting a thread asking for feedback about it?
xrazamax already answered your questions quite nicely.
I did answer the question. The feedback thread is for suggestions and comments on how something is done, how it is implemented, concerns, etc.. It isn't going to be as much for whether a change is made but how it is made. The reason being, devs have thought much harder and have more insight into how these changes effect the game than players do. Player insight is very helpful, but arguments based around an individual's experience is by nature anecdotal. They have larger sets of data and an bigger sense of what is going on. This is probably reflected in the fact that the only time changes are just flat out reversed is when there is some sort of data shown to legitimize it, such as combatlog parses or number crunching.
Again, I don't want to belittle anyone's arguments or concerns, but I do want to point out that when walls of text are seemingly ignored, it isn't because a dev isn't listening. It is usually because the argument boils down to, "No, no, no!" and ignores why these changes are being made.
The main concerns I see are, "This change is bad because now the grind is too long, even moreso when you consider alts, I need Justice Gear for my alts, this makes it too hard to get JG for my alts, my alts will not be viable if I don't get justice gear like everyone else. This change favors elitist players." I don't think these arguments hold up because:
Making Justice Gear hard to get is exactly what they want to do. If you can't get it easily, and it takes time to acquire, then change successful. However...
. . . even then, the grind is going to be easier for those who are scorned by RNGesus token drops and now can now instead get a steady flow of GCR.
You don't need justice gear for your alts to viable. This is partially because...
...Everyone else is going to be in the same boat as you now - using alts without who utilize Heroics or mercenary gear.
Content will be better designed around the fact many people do not have justice gear, instead of so many players having it (plus having it on every alt) that content has to be buffed up so much just to be challenging.
Players should be impressed you have Justice Gear, not chide you for having heroic or Merc. Atm, this isn't the case because as long as you are getting those token drops, so many are running around with JG.
Suggestion: Since it is being acknowledged that some rampages are harder than others (hence the lower amount of destrium berings from Sky Command needed for gear in comparison to Superdense Diamonds), can we have Sky Command and Lemurian invasion reward GCR tokens?
I think the lower requirement of their tokens is going to make less people queue for them as they won't need to participate as much now that there is a lower token cost. Even a small GCR drop will give a different incentive will keep the queues rolling. The concern of less participation after acquiring less tokens combined with the increased time/difficulty of the rampages I feel warrants a GCR reward.
Panta is right on the money when he says you're obsessed with gear. The fact that you imply that content "cannot be done enjoyable" unless you have a certain level of gear proves that.
1,2 - You feel this way because you're obsessed with gear and in your mind have built it up to be way more of a factor than it is.
3 - I see you still haven't figured out your energy problems. That's unfortunate for you.
There you go again, using colorful terms like "obsessed" in attempt to twist my words into something other than what I'm actually trying to say.
First of all, lets burn down your energy issues strawman once and for all. I solved my "energy issues" a long **** time ago. My point in mentioning energy at all is that better gear makes energy management easier thanks to improved energy discounts and in many cases, boosts to stats related to energy pool size, cost, and generation. If you have a build that performs equally well in terms of energy management in both endgame gear and leveling/heirlooms with little or no cost reduction stats, then chances are its getting more energy gain than it needs at max level and could be optimized. That's literally all I was saying. Get over it.
*Wads some strawman ash up into a ball and beans Spinny in the face with it*
Bad troll! BAD!
Now, with that out of the way...
Saying that I'm "obsessed" with gear is either you failing to understand points or just looking for internet fights. The closest you can get is to say that I'm "obsessed" with seeing this game made healthier and more inclusive to a wider variety of playstyles. I know you just like to argue for the sake of arguing, so I won't bother with details. Let me just remind you that CO wasn't exactly "broken" when heroic gear took 2-3 days per piece. In fact, for people who enjoy making alts, it was actually a really well-designed rate for progression. One could argue that rampage tokens needed work, however the results of that "work" have changed what was once 2 different progression paths to the best endgame gear (slow, steady GCR grind vs RNG rampage token grind) into 1 homogenized progression path (grind GCR or GTFO).
(Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
Just to be clear, I'm not looking to equip any alts with Justice Gear, as even with the current system I've not yet managed to complete one piece for my main character.
Just because CO doesn't have 1000 different stats to micromanage doesn't mean it doesn't have stats and that the power of your toon isn't heavily reliant on those stats.
If you could take a level 1 toon into Rampage Gravitar, that toon would be useless. Even with the stat boost from pretend level 40, you have a character with crappy (no) gear to scale up from, no superstats, and two powers with a limited selection. No amount of skill is going to make up from lack of stats.
Even the difference in power from level 39 to 40 can be huge. The only real difference between 39 and 40 is you put better gear on your toons. Most builds would be complete outside of gear by lvl 39.
Most attacks hit your character. Period. There are few bosses that have skill shot attacks. The damage an enemy does has to take into account the stats of the players that the content is intended for. Yes, even the attacks you are expected to block. Those attacks tend to hit you, giving you basically no choice but to block. "Block or die" is hardly a skill.
Being able to pay attention and push buttons isn't exactly much skill.
4-slot gear and slotted secondaries allow builds to be tanky, high dps, and not need a healer, especially when abusing wardicator / guardicator and / or Juggernaut. There is very little content that needs a dedicated healer or tank.
For characters that don't know everything, higher end gear is going to make up for their weaker builds that don't use all of the easy-cheesy tricks. So, even for players who aren't min / max build masters, those extra stats are going to help quite a bit.
Do you think it is motivating to a person with modest gear to see someone with a similar build but max gear doing much better knowing how grindy that gear is to get? How many people are going to do the "end game" content if it keeps getting made for people with higher stats when getting better gear involves a giant grind or throwing your wallet at the screen? Why should getting Justice gear by actually playing the game be so grindy when Legion gear is "good enough" (if merc gear is "good enough", legion must be incredible) and can be obtained with your wallet in a single day with zero effort?
Actually, paying attention and pushing the right buttons HAS helped me to get through the content in this game. Cheesy or not, the simplest of game tactics are reliable enough to get through content. Of course your toon needs gear to help it survive, but it is not necessary to have the best that is offered for most of the content.
I am not dismissing the importance of stats; I just think that they take a backseat to skills.
A lot of players believe that if they have the highest gear/stats possible, they can do enough damage fast enough so they dont have to block. These are the same players that get their faceplants watered when they try to do end game content or rampages (sometimes even alerts). Blocking is a very useful simple skill; it mitigates some damage while allowing the player to prepare for the next attack, as we all know some enemies spam certain attacks. Stats/gear doesnt matter if the player does not use basic tactics, no matter what gear is being used or how high the stats.
MMO's in general require players to put more time and effort into end game gear and content. End game gear is not meant for everyone; it is meant for those who are willing to do the grind to get it. Of course, the grind can always be adjusted, but the grind for it will not go away. This is also true for the end game content; it is for those who want the extra challenge and not everyone will want to do it. The content in CO is open to all; there is no subscription ''pay wall" to block your way. However, that does not mean that players should be able to easily walk into all of it, either.
As others have posted and I have tested out myself, you dont need end game gear to do the new content. Of course, it will get you through it a little faster, but it is not necessary. Motivation depends upon the individual; its up to you to decide how far you want to take your game experience. I have seen many players with toons that have similar build with better gear than mine; however, I dont feel it is necessary to go through the grind to get it at this time. That's my choice; it is not a barrier nor a motivation killer for me.
Ok, time for some input on the length of time to gear up. I play lots of games, and in most of them, a person is almost guaranteed a new piece of gear in a single week, often enough, multiple pieces of gear in the same week. Champions has gotten to the point that you have to grind for months to get gear. I've experienced this type of grind only in Korean/Chinese MMOs. Unfortunately, PWE is a Korean company. Thus, if they say "Make Grind", Cryptic has to make grind. There are some people that enjoy this, and there are some people that don't. Just because you don't like the grind doesn't make it wrong, but, at the same time, just because you like the grind doesn't make it right either.
In truth, the GCR and SCR costs on the Justice gear will be long met before a person collects enough tokens for them. Thus, in truth, they should remove the tokens from the price, and when they do their Rampage passover, they could add tokens back, when tokens have a 100% chance to drop that is. That would be the best approach. Alternatively, what they could do is make it so that each piece of Justice gear costs 4 tokens, but not specific tokens. This might not be the best approach as it might make LI and SC take even longer to pop. Another good approach they could could do is to replace the tokens with a new Rampage Recognition which is rewarded each time you complete a Rampage, and make the gear cost this new currency only. But, they would most likely do that when they do a passover of the Rampages in general. I'm sure there are other approaches to find a solution that everyone can work with, but, what they do is up to them. In truth, I think all their gold gear is underpowered and lacking. Which is why I'm sticking with my legion gear and vigilante gear. Even OV gear is not needed on my toon.
What they could do is make the gold gear worth while, as in have stats that are actually superior to legion and vig. I find the cosmic secondaries to be, very underpowered compared to vig, which is sad.
I don't think it is appropriate to compare other games giving you new pieces of gear "in a single week" with CO's Legendary gears like Justice and Distinguished. I don't know of any where you are earning gear comparable to JG and DG that quickly - maybe gears comparable to rare or unique gears. You can find/craft/drop max level gear in many MMOs, but in almost all of them there are these high tier gear sets that most players will never even unlock.
Think about those rare sets in games like Diablo or the legendary gears in other MMOs which many times themselves come with variations in stats. Justice is on that level, so it is not comparable to the gear in other games you'd get "in a single week".
I don't think it is appropriate to compare other games giving you new pieces of gear "in a single week" with CO's Legendary gears like Justice and Distinguished. I don't know of any where you are earning gear comparable to JG and DG that quickly - maybe gears comparable to rare or unique gears. You can find/craft/drop max level gear in many MMOs, but in almost all of them there are these high tier gear sets that most players will never even unlock.
Think about those rare sets in games like Diablo or the legendary gears in other MMOs which many times themselves come with variations in stats. Justice is on that level, so it is not comparable to the gear in other games you'd get "in a single week".
Actually it is comparable to gear you'd get in a week. Plus, you used a bad example when you used Diablo, where as in Diablo III that gear drops often, in fact getting multiple legendary/set items in an hour is the norm. I'm talking, end-game gear, in the vast majority of MMOs end-game gear is quickly gotten. Justice gear is end-game gear, but that doesn't mean it should take forever to get.
I don't think it is appropriate to compare other games giving you new pieces of gear "in a single week" with CO's Legendary gears like Justice and Distinguished. I don't know of any where you are earning gear comparable to JG and DG that quickly - maybe gears comparable to rare or unique gears. You can find/craft/drop max level gear in many MMOs, but in almost all of them there are these high tier gear sets that most players will never even unlock.
Think about those rare sets in games like Diablo or the legendary gears in other MMOs which many times themselves come with variations in stats. Justice is on that level, so it is not comparable to the gear in other games you'd get "in a single week".
Actually it is comparable to gear you'd get in a week. Plus, you used a bad example when you used Diablo, where as in Diablo III that gear drops often, in fact getting multiple legendary/set items in an hour is the norm. I'm talking, end-game gear, in the vast majority of MMOs end-game gear is quickly gotten. Justice gear is end-game gear, but that doesn't mean it should take forever to get.
I'd even argue that WoW (the grandaddy of all raiding/end game gear type games) no longer makes it all the difficult to get end game gear, because they have various types of raids that require different types of participation. The last time I played it only took me two weeks to get some of the best gear. (Half my toon was outfitted).
But again that's just anecdotal evidence from one person, so may not be all that important.
My suggestion is to lower the SCR and GCR cost by 5%.
And it's perfectly acceptable to say I don't agree with the change.
I have and pretty much moving on now that I have my second piece of JG on my main tank/character. If they decrease the prices fine, but I've pretty much moved on. /shrug
Sure you can say whatever you want. Just don't pull the move jaaz is attempting where he acts perturbed that the devs don't take his disagreement and run off to do what he wants just because they have a PTS thread asking for feed back on an upcoming change when they've repeatedly made it clear that what he's asking for is not going to happen. Or do, same result - people are just trying to answer the question of "why do they ask for feedback when they don't want feedback?" that people keep asking. Sometimes I get the feeling that people ask questions, not actually wanting an answer.
I think they get the answer. What they are saying is the answer isn't satisfactory. Even knowing the answer, the response is still: The prices are too high. Full stop.
The devs have a right to ignore that, as they already have a plan in mind. That's fine. And folks in turn have the option to outright ignore justice gear (and its related content) going forward or until they have time to revise rampages in 2021. That's fine also.
I don't think it is appropriate to compare other games giving you new pieces of gear "in a single week" with CO's Legendary gears like Justice and Distinguished. I don't know of any where you are earning gear comparable to JG and DG that quickly - maybe gears comparable to rare or unique gears. You can find/craft/drop max level gear in many MMOs, but in almost all of them there are these high tier gear sets that most players will never even unlock.
Think about those rare sets in games like Diablo or the legendary gears in other MMOs which many times themselves come with variations in stats. Justice is on that level, so it is not comparable to the gear in other games you'd get "in a single week".
Actually it is comparable to gear you'd get in a week. Plus, you used a bad example when you used Diablo, where as in Diablo III that gear drops often, in fact getting multiple legendary/set items in an hour is the norm. I'm talking, end-game gear, in the vast majority of MMOs end-game gear is quickly gotten. Justice gear is end-game gear, but that doesn't mean it should take forever to get.
But it isn't just end game gear. It is the top tier-nothing-is-better-than-this gear. Heroic, mercenary, bronze king - those are all end game gear too. Nobody uses those though because Justice is comparably within easy enough reach.
My point in mentioning energy at all is that better gear makes energy management easier thanks to improved energy discounts and in many cases, boosts to stats related to energy pool size, cost, and generation.
However it is not required for energy management to function in an acceptable or enjoyable manner. This has been the case for years, before Justice Gear even existed.
One could argue that rampage tokens needed work, however the results of that "work" have changed what was once 2 different progression paths to the best endgame gear (slow, steady GCR grind vs RNG rampage token grind) into 1 homogenized progression path (grind GCR or GTFO).
Ok, time for some input on the length of time to gear up. I play lots of games, and in most of them, a person is almost guaranteed a new piece of gear in a single week, often enough, multiple pieces of gear in the same week.
Those games also have gear ladders that constantly extend upwards over the life of the game. Constantly getting new gear, then replacing it, then replacing it, then replacing it, then replacing it is the norm in those games. Thankfully, it is not the norm here. Once you get your justice or distinguished, that's it you're done... in those other games, you're only done until they roll out the next set of gear, effectively keeping you grinding forever. You wanna grind forever? Cause in those games if you don't, then you can't proceed to the next batch of content either. In CO if you don't feel like grinding, you still get to play everything.
I think they get the answer. What they are saying is the answer isn't satisfactory. Even knowing the answer, the response is still: The prices are too high. Full stop.
So basically what I said... they asked the question fully intending not to accept any answer other than the one they want.
Ok, time for some input on the length of time to gear up. I play lots of games, and in most of them, a person is almost guaranteed a new piece of gear in a single week, often enough, multiple pieces of gear in the same week.
Those games also have gear ladders that constantly extend upwards over the life of the game. Constantly getting new gear, then replacing it, then replacing it, then replacing it, then replacing it is the norm in those games. Thankfully, it is not the norm here. Once you get your justice or distinguished, that's it you're done... in those other games, you're only done until they roll out the next set of gear, effectively keeping you grinding forever. You wanna grind forever? Cause in those games if you don't, then you can't proceed to the next batch of content either. In CO if you don't feel like grinding, you still get to play everything.
If development on CO continues, I absolutely believe that in the future there will be gear that's better than Justice.
As far as comparison to other games, the other main MMO I've played recently is SWTOR. I had been away from that game for a couple of years and in the interim they had upgraded the top level gear several times. It took me about 3-4 weeks of play to get up to the new top level, with roughly the same amount of play time per week that I've been investing in CO for about a year to _almost_ get one piece of Justice Gear.
Those games also have gear ladders that constantly extend upwards over the life of the game. Constantly getting new gear, then replacing it, then replacing it, then replacing it, then replacing it is the norm in those games. Thankfully, it is not the norm here. Once you get your justice or distinguished, that's it you're done... in those other games, you're only done until they roll out the next set of gear
1) The only reason this game doesn't have that is because it doesn't get enough content. Also, you don't have to be "done" once you get distinguished. In STO, each time we get new content, we get several new sets of gear that players can work toward obtaining. Each set of gear is roughly the same power as the previous set, and yet players still work toward it every time. Why is that?
Because each set of gear is interesting in its own way. If our devs wanted to be creative about gear sets and bonuses, we could likely see the same kind of thing here in CO.
2) CO is an alting game for I suspect the vast majority of the people who play it. To say you're "done" once you get your distinguished gear is silly because, upon hitting 40, you probably got another character slot. Make another alt with a new playstyle, theme, etc, rinse repeat.
The problem with the grindfest model this game has been drifting toward is that it makes both Option 1 and Option 2 totally unappealing. The devs basically traded both a previously-existing aspect (alting) and a potentially-popular future aspect (gear diversity) for...a korean grind that most of the players aren't even interested in.
effectively keeping you grinding forever. You wanna grind forever? Cause in those games if you don't, then you can't proceed to the next batch of content either. In CO if you don't feel like grinding, you still get to play everything.
No, most decent games will springboard players into the new content by making the older-tier gear easier to access. To use wow as an example, when a new expansion rolls out, the leveling content is tuned for players in gear as though they'd just come from the previous leveling content. A level 60 player doesn't need to grind through all the old level 60 raids in order to step into 61-70 content, and so on.
Even when a new, higher-tier raid dungeon is released, ways to obtain gear roughly equal to the previous raid tiers are also released. Catch-up mechanics, as they're often called.
The only games that punish a new comer with endless grinds they can't possibly keep up with are games like Wartune, but that's not really a MMO so much as a resource race, designed to hemorrhage your credit cards into oblivion.
(Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
Let me just remind you that CO wasn't exactly "broken" when heroic gear took 2-3 days per piece. In fact, for people who enjoy making alts, it was actually a really well-designed rate for progression. One could argue that rampage tokens needed work, however the results of that "work" have changed what was once 2 different progression paths to the best endgame gear (slow, steady GCR grind vs RNG rampage token grind) into 1 homogenized progression path (grind GCR or GTFO).
Anecdotally related to this point, I always looked forward to leveling my toons to 40 because I knew outfitting them in Heroic gear (at the old prices doing the UNITY missions pre-nerf) was both going to be achievable within my time constraints and would be a fun grind (blasphemy!) with the quantifiable result of a fully mid-tier geared character. The timeframe-to-payout worked for me and I genuinely enjoyed the investment in my alts. After the UNITY/Heroic revisions I honestly haven’t touched this content or gear. As an illustration of pricing changes, I went from literally every single toon that hit 40 going through this progression to having zero interaction with Heroics or the UNTIL missions I used to do to farm them.
Don’t get me wrong, I still level toons, I still am involved in rotating alts through the game and spend money on characters, etc etc – I just lost interest in that particular gear path with the price hike. Frankly, the game has had enough exciting changes/additions/improvements over the last year that the frustration of gearing my alts fell by the wayside in light of all the great dev activity we were seeing.
The corollary here is that for me (this being purely my opinion, based on my playstyle, time availability and interest level), I will not make any concerted effort towards Justice gear at the new pricing (stemming from my abysmal luck with RNG tokens and the non-BoA nature of the GCR costs). I’ll likely stop participating in Rampages altogether until they see revisions to incentives or tokens – this is in no way sour grapes, but rather just me focusing the GCR I’m able to earn on things like costumes, powers, and other items that benefit ALL my characters.
Pricing concerns notwithstanding, I'm still PUMPED about the new content and the concept of GCR-reward content in general. While I intend to explore and participate in the new Q-zone, I personally don't see the new gear pricing being worth the investment of the time that I have set aside for CO. If anything, grinding for Justice gear would probably harm my overall enjoyment of the game (based on my experience with grinding for Heroics after the new pricing). Rather than do that, I’ll just enjoy the new missions/bosses in a less repetitive fashion and aim at the lower hanging fruit.
My goal with this post is just to provide feedback from the perspective of a single player (for whatever its worth) – I’m not arguing for or against the gear pricing, I’m just stating how said pricing will interact (or in this case, not interact with) with my personal playtime and content selection when I’m in the game. I really appreciate all the effort going into the new zone, as well as the continued commitment to bring new and exciting things to annual events like the anniversary.
"Players should be impressed you have Justice Gear[...]"
That made me giggle. But no, they shouldn't be. Do I play your character? No. Do I care what gear you have? No. Do I play my character? Yes. Do I care what gear my character has? Yes. Do I play CO, a super hero game, to feel like a bad ****? Yes. Does the gear you have matter at all in the slightest in accomplishing that whole "be the hero you want to be" that Cryptic is failing to sell? No.
Tanking Warlord is a hell of a lot easier in Justice / OnSlaught than in Heroics / Vigilante. Thanks to this fabulous gear, my main has nearly the HP of a tank, the defenses to tank most of the game, oodles of damage, and can even pity heal my team. I have played the game with junky gear and most powerful gear. It's a noticeable difference no matter how much anyone wants to tell me otherwise.
"A lot of players believe that if they have the highest gear/stats possible, they can do enough damage fast enough so they dont have to block."
Because in most content, you can get the stats where you don't actually need to block even when you do get hit. Wouldn't be surprised if our fancy one-shot block or die attacks were a way to force these beef-cake toons into actually being bothered to use the block button for once.
"End game gear is not meant for everyone; it is meant for those who are willing to do the grind to get it."
I'm going to remind you that people play games for fun, not to take a second, unpaid job. Also: this is just an opinion that I 100% disagree with. Why shouldn't end game gear be for everyone? Isn't including people on the fun of living out super hero fantasies kind of important for a super hero game? Isn't the reason why people play games in the first place is to do fun stuff that they can't in real life? If I wanted to have a job doing the same thing every day, I could flip burgers at McD's with the added benefit of actually getting paid to do it. You're mentality of exclusion makes no sense.
Apparently, pointing out how the grind looks an awful lot like shoving people into the cash shop is not a legitimate concern. I originally didn't think anything of selling gear for real money in the game, but now I see how this isn't a good thing for the game.
When someone buys gear, they aren't playing the game. They aren't being engaged in the content, they're ignoring it. Sure, that person may take their new gear out for a spin, but then what? They already have some of the best gear in the game, no reason to bother getting anything better. No reason to play all that much either since it's all just the same stuff every time. So, the situation is that this person isn't playing the game much or at all, they aren't engaged in the content, they probably aren't going to recommend the game to their friends or make cool videos about such a forgettable game. "Yeah, it has a great Barbie dress up! And... um... Yeah..."
"Think about those rare sets in games like Diablo [...]"
Where you get a full set of gear by doing the season chapters which are mostly easy? Where they added Adventure Mode so people could skip the story the second time? Where they created loot 2.0 and legendaries rain from the sky? Where you can up the difficulty for tons of extra magic find so that you can get more legendaries raining from the sky? Where in their GDC 2015 talk, they said their original, awful loot system was TOO STINGY? ("Where did we go wrong?" "Then and Now" is a nice one too. Actually, just watch the whole thing because there is a lot of interesting dev insight that also applies to CO.)
Where in their GDC 2015 talk, they said their original, awful loot system was TOO STINGY? ("Where did we go wrong?" "Then and Now" is a nice one too. Actually, just watch the whole thing because there is a lot of interesting dev insight that also applies to CO.)
I liked the section of that video session. The problem is Cryptic isn't good at game philosophy and has actually gotten worse at game design over time. This is why they can never be great and that they will continue to be unknown when it comes to being a part of the industry. A company that only cares about the numbers and failing to see what makes good numbers happen.
I'm going to remind you that people play games for fun, not to take a second, unpaid job.
And yet, players who claim they are these people will then turn the game into a second job, and decide to blame the game for their decision. Some people, simply, do not want to be happy.
I think they get the answer. What they are saying is the answer isn't satisfactory. Even knowing the answer, the response is still: The prices are too high. Full stop.
So basically what I said... they asked the question fully intending not to accept any answer other than the one they want.
Yes. And that's fine. It's okay for the devs and the players to disagree. The players can then act accordingly. /shrug.
My point in mentioning energy at all is that better gear makes energy management easier thanks to improved energy discounts and in many cases, boosts to stats related to energy pool size, cost, and generation.
However it is not required for energy management to function in an acceptable or enjoyable manner. This has been the case for years, before Justice Gear even existed.
One could argue that rampage tokens needed work, however the results of that "work" have changed what was once 2 different progression paths to the best endgame gear (slow, steady GCR grind vs RNG rampage token grind) into 1 homogenized progression path (grind GCR or GTFO).
Which is good, because the RNG path was garbage.
The RNG is still there. At least for the next few months.
Ok, time for some input on the length of time to gear up. I play lots of games, and in most of them, a person is almost guaranteed a new piece of gear in a single week, often enough, multiple pieces of gear in the same week.
Those games also have gear ladders that constantly extend upwards over the life of the game. Constantly getting new gear, then replacing it, then replacing it, then replacing it, then replacing it is the norm in those games. Thankfully, it is not the norm here. Once you get your justice or distinguished, that's it you're done... in those other games, you're only done until they roll out the next set of gear, effectively keeping you grinding forever. You wanna grind forever? Cause in those games if you don't, then you can't proceed to the next batch of content either. In CO if you don't feel like grinding, you still get to play everything.
I find it cute you think Justice will be the ultimate end of gear here.
EDIT: Actually I find it more like bizarre if one simply compares the other games in PWE's portfolio.
Probably Spinny should go back to Kaiserin's OP. It is completely open-ended about the nature of the feedback being sought. If K. had been more precise about the nature of the feedback being sought there might not have been the walls of negative criticism that some are faulting here. E.g. she could have said what parameters were set in stone or what exactly about the pricing changes was of interest to the devs. If you start off with 1 wide open request you're going to get a lot of different feedback.
So basically what I said... they asked the question fully intending not to accept any answer other than the one they want.
Yes. And that's fine. It's okay for the devs and the players to disagree. The players can then act accordingly. /shrug.
Not seeing the issue here.
What issue? People asked "why do they ask for feedback when they don't want it?" and several folks answered that question. Nobody said that people aren't allowed to disagree.
Probably Spinny should go back to Kaiserin's OP. It is completely open-ended about the nature of the feedback being sought. If K. had been more precise about the nature of the feedback being sought there might not have been the walls of negative criticism that some are faulting here. E.g. she could have said what parameters were set in stone or what exactly about the pricing changes was of interest to the devs. If you start off with 1 wide open request you're going to get a lot of different feedback.
And since then it's been explained to you that what you want is not happening. It's your choice to not listen. Lord knows you're clearly not the only one here who enjoys pointlessly repeating yourself even though it's clear the other party is not going to listen
Since these changes mean I won't ever need to run LI or SC, they immediately increase my likelihood of obtaining J-gear from 0% to... something, not sure yet. I'm also in the camp that is fine with high-end gear requiring a serious investment. I'm still very, very salty about the huge hike in Heroic prices (and subsequent neutering of the best single-player method of getting SCR, UNITY dailies). I'd say if you cut Heroic prices by 50% or so, there would be a lot less complaining.
At any rate, I guess I'm in favor. Anything that removes LI and SC from consideration is a huge plus.
Since these changes mean I won't ever need to run LI or SC, they immediately increase my likelihood of obtaining J-gear from 0% to... something, not sure yet. I'm also in the camp that is fine with high-end gear requiring a serious investment. I'm still very, very salty about the huge hike in Heroic prices (and subsequent neutering of the best single-player method of getting SCR, UNITY dailies). I'd say if you cut Heroic prices by 50% or so, there would be a lot less complaining.
At any rate, I guess I'm in favor. Anything that removes LI and SC from consideration is a huge plus.
For now. I have a strong suspicion when they do eventually get to revamp them in 20whenever both will be back into it again in some way.
I may be able to get a piece of Justice, I think.(When this new model hits). But, SCR for me is practically only found in TAs, APs, CSs, or GM Hunts. Sure, this can be fun at times, but is also a big ol' time sink, and I have things to do outside of game that take away a considerable amount of this time. There, unfortunately, isn't a wide variety of gear to differentiate prices between, well, except maybe mercs. Tokens can be earned in an ok manner, not great or too varied, but ok, if one has the time for it. I believe, on a average day each GM can be about..an hr?(Factoring in windup time and all that) so..3hrs in total. TA: This one should be quick but can have its' moments depending on team. 45m-2hr(I usually have to go if it hits the 2hr+ mark) APs: Cut-scenes and all:1h30m or 2hr(Depends on which AP your playing, some are very cut-scene heavy ) so all 3: 4h30m or 6hr at the worst.
What I sometimes try to do is see if Kiga is up(cause he's usually easy) or do an AP if I can get on, and that be my source of SCR/GCR. If I luck out where TA channel is active with vets then I do a TA.
I'm sure I'm not the only one with this regiment, and may be in the same predicament. Being able to maybe get one piece of J-Gear(and that only being because of the years of spotty play I've gotten a lot of tokens).
My last addendum: I believe alts should be able to participate in the large number of SCR/GCR needed by making a shared account. Content still gets replayed, and, if by y'all's own word, "It doesn't matter what gear you get there is barely a power level increase", what does it matter to you if I wanna use my 40s to get gear for well, pardon the redundancy but..my 40s?
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
This is all true, but there is something else to remember. Even with all their extra data and insights the devs are only human and can (and have) made mistakes in their handling of this game (though most of the time they do a good job with what they have). They may guess wrong on something because they misread their data and in the end players might be driven away and/or spend less money on the game. That's why negative criticism is important.
Just as an example, take the Onslaught System. Sure, we can do it and get rewards, but does it really function well and as intended? I would argue that it doesn't. Nothing has been added to the store essentially since launch, the nonperforming powers have not been fixed, no new villains have been added. To me this says the devs realize the implementation of the system was a mistake and so they are not throwing good resources after bad.
Will all the work going into the new zone, changes to JG pricing, and other cosmic stuff be a great step forward or a meh like the OV system? I guess only time will tell.
I did answer the question. The feedback thread is for suggestions and comments on how something is done, how it is implemented, concerns, etc.. It isn't going to be as much for whether a change is made but how it is made. The reason being, devs have thought much harder and have more insight into how these changes effect the game than players do. Player insight is very helpful, but arguments based around an individual's experience is by nature anecdotal. They have larger sets of data and an bigger sense of what is going on. This is probably reflected in the fact that the only time changes are just flat out reversed is when there is some sort of data shown to legitimize it, such as combatlog parses or number crunching.
Again, I don't want to belittle anyone's arguments or concerns, but I do want to point out that when walls of text are seemingly ignored, it isn't because a dev isn't listening. It is usually because the argument boils down to, "No, no, no!" and ignores why these changes are being made.
I'm going to remind you that people play games for fun, not to take a second, unpaid job.
And yet, players who claim they are these people will then turn the game into a second job, and decide to blame the game for their decision. Some people, simply, do not want to be happy.
No, it doesn't work that way. Most people will see the "second job" approach to game design and just wander off to play something more rewarding. To use myself as an example, I haven't really logged on at all this week or last, other than to check off the weekly custom alerts for the meta quest.
I'm at the point where I'm feeling some pretty serious buyer's remorse over my LTS, even with it having been on sale. I'm starting to feel like anything would've been a better use of that money, even character art commissions or $200 worth of Beanie Babies. Oh well, live and learn I guess.
(Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
I'm at the point where I'm feeling some pretty serious buyer's remorse over my LTS, even with it having been on sale. I'm starting to feel like anything would've been a better use of that money, even character art commissions or $200 worth of Beanie Babies. Oh well, live and learn I guess.
I'm not - mostly because everything the game had when I got my LTS is still there. Sure, the new stuff hasn't been aimed my way for a while, but that just means that nothing's changed for me, and I got used to nothing changing for the past couple of years.
OTOH, I'm beginning to understand why I usually lose interest in a toon around lvl 35 or so, and start a new one...
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
It actually does work that way. You choose what to do with your time in the game. I've known a lot of people who complained that a game felt like a "second job" who didn't seem to realize that they were the ones making it that.
with these new changes the j gear seems so far out of reach with both the rng drops ( I have only ever got 3 fire and ice tokens since rampages started , i have a dozen or so diamonds ,and about eight of the others ) and grind for 450 gold rec and 1350 silver rec per character , its disheartening to even want to start it ,and I need to gear up to even try start to try to get gold rec , and please don't quote about gold rec is easy to get , cosmics have a low rate of success now , thats when they actually happen and TA isn't possible without a better optimised and geared character , so I need to boost to heroics or legion to even compete , well that's my opinion and that's feedback as requested by this thread (so that's 450 silver rec or about 1000G to even start to grind for the gold , and then I need the mods ) more ways to get gold rec were mentioned a while ago , care to elaborate on that ?
how about updating the unity missions to drop some gold rec, even if its only the one per mission , please give us some more options
If it does then we will all understand how much our feedback on this topic has impacted decisons.
No but really, I think the J Gear prices might be rolled out with this entire update "Shadow of Destruction".
If the very unattractive prices for J Gear must go forward...I would hope several other things change,
- SCR and GCR token caps are increased from 1k to 1.5k or 2k. - Double SCR/GCR events happen more often and affect all missions which grant SCR/GCR
I know that there is a desire to stop players from "hoarding" (not sure why though?) but raising the prices of stuff so considerably actually forces players to hoard recog than spend it.
It actually does work that way. You choose what to do with your time in the game. I've known a lot of people who complained that a game felt like a "second job" who didn't seem to realize that they were the ones making it that.
Is a great way to start a sentence that is inaccurate. What's next, you're going to claim you speak for most people/the majority of players?
Way to pick apart the wording rather than addressing the points being made. How typical. *golfclap*
And no, while there's always exceptions, sane people generally just abandon something and move on when the game feels like a second, unpaid job. Just look at WoW's last expansion, Warlords of Draenor. It's seen plunging subscriber numbers every quarter, even if you disregard the first-quarter surge that occurred due to massive levels of hype. That's because the gameplay it brought felt like a second job to those folks: god-awful garrison daily chores, a really boring, drawn-out, and ultimately unrewarding apexis daily, and not much else of interest.
Hell, I'll even use myself as an example. When I look at CO's SCR grind for Heroic gear, or the massive GCR grind for distinguished and now Justice, sure, I could just sigh and take on this new second job that's presenting itself to me...but no thanks. Instead, I just log in once a week to check off the custom alert for those of mine who can do it, then maybe poke around in a few smashes or the PTS to try various things. It's not that I dislike the game, since obviously I'm here right now. It's that the direction it's been moving in lately has little to offer someone like me, so I just put it aside for the time being in favor of more rewarding games. That really is how the majority of players approach gameplay, so stop thinking that the unhealthy population, the portion that rolls up their sleeves and digs in to play something they're unhappy with, is the norm.
Players obviously want to engage in fun activities, but they even moreso like getting rewards. You can say I'm "trying to speak for everyone" all you want, but this is very much a thing in the mmo industry, and has been heavily taken advantage of by successful online game developers for many years now. STO, Neverwinter, WoW, etc, as well as hundreds of seedy, fly-by-night Chinese pay-to-wins all shower players with rewards. The big games with lasting power use steady reward streams to keep their players interested and engaged, while the seedy Chinese mmos will rain loot down from the skies to suck players in and prep them to scale the paywall with their credit cards in hand.
Meanwhile, what does CO do to reward players? The whole notion that "gear should be special and hard to obtain" is actually rather draconian and outdated. Gear is just the vehicle in which players use to traverse the gamescape and enjoy the game with.
(Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
@aesica I think prices are too high, but I also think your distorting things to enhance your point.
"The big games with lasting power use steady reward streams to keep their players interested and engaged" between the Q store and the various recognition tiers there are a lot of rewards other than justice gear. I suspect this is how the devs see it too.
"The whole notion that "gear should be special and hard to obtain" is actually rather draconian and outdated." Gear isn't hard to get in general. Only top tier gear. 1. If the moment to moment game play isn't fun, then Justice Gear isn't going to make the game fun for you. The game will only feel like its a job if its not fun. It may sound harsh, but maybe its time to take a break or even quit. 2. Justice Gear isn't game changing. When I completed my set I was actually disappointed. Your build/specs have WAY more influence on how strong you are than your gear. 3. There is no content (including TA or the Q warzone) that requires JG. If you don't want it, you don't have to get it. If you just play the game for fun, eventually you will have a bunch of s/gcr and you can just buy it. 4. If you think you need JG to run "epic" content, then you only might have an excuse if your running certain ATs. 99% of FF builds can run epic content and remain in theme as long as you make smart choices in terms of synergy. 5. If your an AT and under-powered for epic content (even with the recent improvements I still think ATs could use a buff) JG probably isn't going to fix that.
The s/gcr prices situation sucks, but not as bad as people make it out to be. I think some people here actually don't like this game, but feel trapped because there aren't a lot of alternatives for super combustible super hero games.
Lastly, I don't think anything anyone says in this thread will change anything.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Meanwhile, what does CO do to reward players? The whole notion that "gear should be special and hard to obtain" is actually rather draconian and outdated. Gear is just the vehicle in which players use to traverse the gamescape and enjoy the game with.
My limited take without (hopefully) being hyperbolic or co-opting/mangling anyone else's specific opinion:
I think a general concern of the 'priced too high' camp (beyond the obvious of the pricing itself) is that people would like some reassurance that this move isn't endemic of a continued focus shift towards content that will be played primarily by specific portions of the playerbase when that portion is perceived by some (at least on the forums) to be a smaller part of the general CO population (for lack of a better term, the CO raiding community). Since we don't get to see the metrics, we can't quantify the overall participation level on TA/Cosmics/upcoming Q-zone as a percentage beyond personal experience (which obviously has both positive and negative feedback, per this and other threads).
Here's a quick illustration of my personal worries, (and please take this with a grain of salt and let it sit as purely an outlying example rather than a direct comparison) but as a corollary to some folks' current content concerns, Wildstar (a game I loved and that also has/had a passionate and talented dev team) suffered some pretty significant financial setbacks for development focus that was too attenuated on 'high end raiding' when they had a product that had literally TONS of other content and components that players loved just as well.
I'm not saying we're DOOOOM'd to follow Wildstar's mistakes (which, as an aside, seems to finally be stabilizing as a free-to-play) and I'm definitely not trying to vilify the concept of a raiding community (because it's something that CO has been missing and definitely needs) but I do think some dev commentary (i.e. state of the game, forum post, etc) addressing their perspective on the balance between end game as it relates to the core product, or even just general design philosophy as it relates to treadmills, alts and casual play, might assuage (or at least redirect) some of the concerns reflected here. There's a lot of great things that have happened to CO over the last year and sometimes it helps when a gold-tagged name points at them and says, "We're still going to expand on these things too." That's my two cents.
Comments
I have and pretty much moving on now that I have my second piece of JG on my main tank/character. If they decrease the prices fine, but I've pretty much moved on. /shrug
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Cupid@Tool-box, stunningly radiant stag ready to play matchmaker between villain and arrow!
Vixon@Tool-box, frighteningly eager to summon despair for his adversaries!
Jebin Zedalu@Tool-box, elementalist weaponmaster. ...One of these things is not like the others!
Again, I don't want to belittle anyone's arguments or concerns, but I do want to point out that when walls of text are seemingly ignored, it isn't because a dev isn't listening. It is usually because the argument boils down to, "No, no, no!" and ignores why these changes are being made.
/End_Response
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The main concerns I see are, "This change is bad because now the grind is too long, even moreso when you consider alts, I need Justice Gear for my alts, this makes it too hard to get JG for my alts, my alts will not be viable if I don't get justice gear like everyone else. This change favors elitist players." I don't think these arguments hold up because:
Suggestion: Since it is being acknowledged that some rampages are harder than others (hence the lower amount of destrium berings from Sky Command needed for gear in comparison to Superdense Diamonds), can we have Sky Command and Lemurian invasion reward GCR tokens?
I think the lower requirement of their tokens is going to make less people queue for them as they won't need to participate as much now that there is a lower token cost. Even a small GCR drop will give a different incentive will keep the queues rolling. The concern of less participation after acquiring less tokens combined with the increased time/difficulty of the rampages I feel warrants a GCR reward.
First of all, lets burn down your energy issues strawman once and for all. I solved my "energy issues" a long **** time ago. My point in mentioning energy at all is that better gear makes energy management easier thanks to improved energy discounts and in many cases, boosts to stats related to energy pool size, cost, and generation. If you have a build that performs equally well in terms of energy management in both endgame gear and leveling/heirlooms with little or no cost reduction stats, then chances are its getting more energy gain than it needs at max level and could be optimized. That's literally all I was saying. Get over it.
*Wads some strawman ash up into a ball and beans Spinny in the face with it*
Bad troll! BAD!
Now, with that out of the way...
Saying that I'm "obsessed" with gear is either you failing to understand points or just looking for internet fights. The closest you can get is to say that I'm "obsessed" with seeing this game made healthier and more inclusive to a wider variety of playstyles. I know you just like to argue for the sake of arguing, so I won't bother with details. Let me just remind you that CO wasn't exactly "broken" when heroic gear took 2-3 days per piece. In fact, for people who enjoy making alts, it was actually a really well-designed rate for progression. One could argue that rampage tokens needed work, however the results of that "work" have changed what was once 2 different progression paths to the best endgame gear (slow, steady GCR grind vs RNG rampage token grind) into 1 homogenized progression path (grind GCR or GTFO).
I am not dismissing the importance of stats; I just think that they take a backseat to skills.
A lot of players believe that if they have the highest gear/stats possible, they can do enough damage fast enough so they dont have to block. These are the same players that get their faceplants watered when they try to do end game content or rampages (sometimes even alerts). Blocking is a very useful simple skill; it mitigates some damage while allowing the player to prepare for the next attack, as we all know some enemies spam certain attacks. Stats/gear doesnt matter if the player does not use basic tactics, no matter what gear is being used or how high the stats.
MMO's in general require players to put more time and effort into end game gear and content. End game gear is not meant for everyone; it is meant for those who are willing to do the grind to get it. Of course, the grind can always be adjusted, but the grind for it will not go away. This is also true for the end game content; it is for those who want the extra challenge and not everyone will want to do it. The content in CO is open to all; there is no subscription ''pay wall" to block your way. However, that does not mean that players should be able to easily walk into all of it, either.
As others have posted and I have tested out myself, you dont need end game gear to do the new content. Of course, it will get you through it a little faster, but it is not necessary. Motivation depends upon the individual; its up to you to decide how far you want to take your game experience. I have seen many players with toons that have similar build with better gear than mine; however, I dont feel it is necessary to go through the grind to get it at this time. That's my choice; it is not a barrier nor a motivation killer for me.
In truth, the GCR and SCR costs on the Justice gear will be long met before a person collects enough tokens for them. Thus, in truth, they should remove the tokens from the price, and when they do their Rampage passover, they could add tokens back, when tokens have a 100% chance to drop that is. That would be the best approach. Alternatively, what they could do is make it so that each piece of Justice gear costs 4 tokens, but not specific tokens. This might not be the best approach as it might make LI and SC take even longer to pop. Another good approach they could could do is to replace the tokens with a new Rampage Recognition which is rewarded each time you complete a Rampage, and make the gear cost this new currency only. But, they would most likely do that when they do a passover of the Rampages in general. I'm sure there are other approaches to find a solution that everyone can work with, but, what they do is up to them. In truth, I think all their gold gear is underpowered and lacking. Which is why I'm sticking with my legion gear and vigilante gear. Even OV gear is not needed on my toon.
What they could do is make the gold gear worth while, as in have stats that are actually superior to legion and vig. I find the cosmic secondaries to be, very underpowered compared to vig, which is sad.
Think about those rare sets in games like Diablo or the legendary gears in other MMOs which many times themselves come with variations in stats. Justice is on that level, so it is not comparable to the gear in other games you'd get "in a single week".
But again that's just anecdotal evidence from one person, so may not be all that important.
My suggestion is to lower the SCR and GCR cost by 5%.
The prices are too high. Full stop.
The devs have a right to ignore that, as they already have a plan in mind. That's fine. And folks in turn have the option to outright ignore justice gear (and its related content) going forward or until they have time to revise rampages in 2021. That's fine also.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
As far as comparison to other games, the other main MMO I've played recently is SWTOR. I had been away from that game for a couple of years and in the interim they had upgraded the top level gear several times. It took me about 3-4 weeks of play to get up to the new top level, with roughly the same amount of play time per week that I've been investing in CO for about a year to _almost_ get one piece of Justice Gear.
Because each set of gear is interesting in its own way. If our devs wanted to be creative about gear sets and bonuses, we could likely see the same kind of thing here in CO.
2) CO is an alting game for I suspect the vast majority of the people who play it. To say you're "done" once you get your distinguished gear is silly because, upon hitting 40, you probably got another character slot. Make another alt with a new playstyle, theme, etc, rinse repeat.
The problem with the grindfest model this game has been drifting toward is that it makes both Option 1 and Option 2 totally unappealing. The devs basically traded both a previously-existing aspect (alting) and a potentially-popular future aspect (gear diversity) for...a korean grind that most of the players aren't even interested in.
Edit: No, most decent games will springboard players into the new content by making the older-tier gear easier to access. To use wow as an example, when a new expansion rolls out, the leveling content is tuned for players in gear as though they'd just come from the previous leveling content. A level 60 player doesn't need to grind through all the old level 60 raids in order to step into 61-70 content, and so on.
Even when a new, higher-tier raid dungeon is released, ways to obtain gear roughly equal to the previous raid tiers are also released. Catch-up mechanics, as they're often called.
The only games that punish a new comer with endless grinds they can't possibly keep up with are games like Wartune, but that's not really a MMO so much as a resource race, designed to hemorrhage your credit cards into oblivion.
Don’t get me wrong, I still level toons, I still am involved in rotating alts through the game and spend money on characters, etc etc – I just lost interest in that particular gear path with the price hike. Frankly, the game has had enough exciting changes/additions/improvements over the last year that the frustration of gearing my alts fell by the wayside in light of all the great dev activity we were seeing.
The corollary here is that for me (this being purely my opinion, based on my playstyle, time availability and interest level), I will not make any concerted effort towards Justice gear at the new pricing (stemming from my abysmal luck with RNG tokens and the non-BoA nature of the GCR costs). I’ll likely stop participating in Rampages altogether until they see revisions to incentives or tokens – this is in no way sour grapes, but rather just me focusing the GCR I’m able to earn on things like costumes, powers, and other items that benefit ALL my characters.
Pricing concerns notwithstanding, I'm still PUMPED about the new content and the concept of GCR-reward content in general. While I intend to explore and participate in the new Q-zone, I personally don't see the new gear pricing being worth the investment of the time that I have set aside for CO. If anything, grinding for Justice gear would probably harm my overall enjoyment of the game (based on my experience with grinding for Heroics after the new pricing). Rather than do that, I’ll just enjoy the new missions/bosses in a less repetitive fashion and aim at the lower hanging fruit.
My goal with this post is just to provide feedback from the perspective of a single player (for whatever its worth) – I’m not arguing for or against the gear pricing, I’m just stating how said pricing will interact (or in this case, not interact with) with my personal playtime and content selection when I’m in the game. I really appreciate all the effort going into the new zone, as well as the continued commitment to bring new and exciting things to annual events like the anniversary.
That made me giggle. But no, they shouldn't be. Do I play your character? No. Do I care what gear you have? No. Do I play my character? Yes. Do I care what gear my character has? Yes. Do I play CO, a super hero game, to feel like a bad ****? Yes. Does the gear you have matter at all in the slightest in accomplishing that whole "be the hero you want to be" that Cryptic is failing to sell? No.
Tanking Warlord is a hell of a lot easier in Justice / OnSlaught than in Heroics / Vigilante. Thanks to this fabulous gear, my main has nearly the HP of a tank, the defenses to tank most of the game, oodles of damage, and can even pity heal my team. I have played the game with junky gear and most powerful gear. It's a noticeable difference no matter how much anyone wants to tell me otherwise.
"A lot of players believe that if they have the highest gear/stats possible, they can do enough damage fast enough so they dont have to block."
Because in most content, you can get the stats where you don't actually need to block even when you do get hit. Wouldn't be surprised if our fancy one-shot block or die attacks were a way to force these beef-cake toons into actually being bothered to use the block button for once.
"End game gear is not meant for everyone; it is meant for those who are willing to do the grind to get it."
I'm going to remind you that people play games for fun, not to take a second, unpaid job. Also: this is just an opinion that I 100% disagree with. Why shouldn't end game gear be for everyone? Isn't including people on the fun of living out super hero fantasies kind of important for a super hero game? Isn't the reason why people play games in the first place is to do fun stuff that they can't in real life? If I wanted to have a job doing the same thing every day, I could flip burgers at McD's with the added benefit of actually getting paid to do it. You're mentality of exclusion makes no sense.
Apparently, pointing out how the grind looks an awful lot like shoving people into the cash shop is not a legitimate concern. I originally didn't think anything of selling gear for real money in the game, but now I see how this isn't a good thing for the game.
When someone buys gear, they aren't playing the game. They aren't being engaged in the content, they're ignoring it. Sure, that person may take their new gear out for a spin, but then what? They already have some of the best gear in the game, no reason to bother getting anything better. No reason to play all that much either since it's all just the same stuff every time. So, the situation is that this person isn't playing the game much or at all, they aren't engaged in the content, they probably aren't going to recommend the game to their friends or make cool videos about such a forgettable game. "Yeah, it has a great Barbie dress up! And... um... Yeah..."
"Think about those rare sets in games like Diablo [...]"
Where you get a full set of gear by doing the season chapters which are mostly easy? Where they added Adventure Mode so people could skip the story the second time? Where they created loot 2.0 and legendaries rain from the sky? Where you can up the difficulty for tons of extra magic find so that you can get more legendaries raining from the sky? Where in their GDC 2015 talk, they said their original, awful loot system was TOO STINGY? ("Where did we go wrong?" "Then and Now" is a nice one too. Actually, just watch the whole thing because there is a lot of interesting dev insight that also applies to CO.)
You picked a terrible comparison.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
I liked the section of that video session. The problem is Cryptic isn't good at game philosophy and has actually gotten worse at game design over time. This is why they can never be great and that they will continue to be unknown when it comes to being a part of the industry. A company that only cares about the numbers and failing to see what makes good numbers happen.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Not seeing the issue here.
EDIT: Actually I find it more like bizarre if one simply compares the other games in PWE's portfolio.
Not seeing the issue here.
What issue? People asked "why do they ask for feedback when they don't want it?" and several folks answered that question. Nobody said that people aren't allowed to disagree.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I mean hell if we're predicting: Entire game gets converted to an anime game, Champions High School, with dating sim elements.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
At any rate, I guess I'm in favor. Anything that removes LI and SC from consideration is a huge plus.
I believe, on a average day each GM can be about..an hr?(Factoring in windup time and all that) so..3hrs in total.
TA: This one should be quick but can have its' moments depending on team. 45m-2hr(I usually have to go if it hits the 2hr+ mark)
APs: Cut-scenes and all:1h30m or 2hr(Depends on which AP your playing, some are very cut-scene heavy
What I sometimes try to do is see if Kiga is up(cause he's usually easy) or do an AP if I can get on, and that be my source of SCR/GCR. If I luck out where TA channel is active with vets then I do a TA.
I'm sure I'm not the only one with this regiment, and may be in the same predicament. Being able to maybe get one piece of J-Gear(and that only being because of the years of spotty play I've gotten a lot of tokens).
My last addendum: I believe alts should be able to participate in the large number of SCR/GCR needed by making a shared account. Content still gets replayed, and, if by y'all's own word, "It doesn't matter what gear you get there is barely a power level increase", what does it matter to you if I wanna use my 40s to get gear for well, pardon the redundancy but..my 40s?
42 40s, LTSer.
Just as an example, take the Onslaught System. Sure, we can do it and get rewards, but does it really function well and as intended? I would argue that it doesn't. Nothing has been added to the store essentially since launch, the nonperforming powers have not been fixed, no new villains have been added. To me this says the devs realize the implementation of the system was a mistake and so they are not throwing good resources after bad.
Will all the work going into the new zone, changes to JG pricing, and other cosmic stuff be a great step forward or a meh like the OV system? I guess only time will tell.
I'm at the point where I'm feeling some pretty serious buyer's remorse over my LTS, even with it having been on sale. I'm starting to feel like anything would've been a better use of that money, even character art commissions or $200 worth of Beanie Babies. Oh well, live and learn I guess.
OTOH, I'm beginning to understand why I usually lose interest in a toon around lvl 35 or so, and start a new one...
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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My super cool CC build and how to use it.
how about updating the unity missions to drop some gold rec, even if its only the one per mission , please give us some more options
No but really, I think the J Gear prices might be rolled out with this entire update "Shadow of Destruction".
If the very unattractive prices for J Gear must go forward...I would hope several other things change,
- SCR and GCR token caps are increased from 1k to 1.5k or 2k.
- Double SCR/GCR events happen more often and affect all missions which grant SCR/GCR
I know that there is a desire to stop players from "hoarding" (not sure why though?) but raising the prices of stuff so considerably actually forces players to hoard recog than spend it.
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And no, while there's always exceptions, sane people generally just abandon something and move on when the game feels like a second, unpaid job. Just look at WoW's last expansion, Warlords of Draenor. It's seen plunging subscriber numbers every quarter, even if you disregard the first-quarter surge that occurred due to massive levels of hype. That's because the gameplay it brought felt like a second job to those folks: god-awful garrison daily chores, a really boring, drawn-out, and ultimately unrewarding apexis daily, and not much else of interest.
Hell, I'll even use myself as an example. When I look at CO's SCR grind for Heroic gear, or the massive GCR grind for distinguished and now Justice, sure, I could just sigh and take on this new second job that's presenting itself to me...but no thanks. Instead, I just log in once a week to check off the custom alert for those of mine who can do it, then maybe poke around in a few smashes or the PTS to try various things. It's not that I dislike the game, since obviously I'm here right now. It's that the direction it's been moving in lately has little to offer someone like me, so I just put it aside for the time being in favor of more rewarding games. That really is how the majority of players approach gameplay, so stop thinking that the unhealthy population, the portion that rolls up their sleeves and digs in to play something they're unhappy with, is the norm.
Players obviously want to engage in fun activities, but they even moreso like getting rewards. You can say I'm "trying to speak for everyone" all you want, but this is very much a thing in the mmo industry, and has been heavily taken advantage of by successful online game developers for many years now. STO, Neverwinter, WoW, etc, as well as hundreds of seedy, fly-by-night Chinese pay-to-wins all shower players with rewards. The big games with lasting power use steady reward streams to keep their players interested and engaged, while the seedy Chinese mmos will rain loot down from the skies to suck players in and prep them to scale the paywall with their credit cards in hand.
Meanwhile, what does CO do to reward players? The whole notion that "gear should be special and hard to obtain" is actually rather draconian and outdated. Gear is just the vehicle in which players use to traverse the gamescape and enjoy the game with.
"The big games with lasting power use steady reward streams to keep their players interested and engaged"
between the Q store and the various recognition tiers there are a lot of rewards other than justice gear. I suspect this is how the devs see it too.
"The whole notion that "gear should be special and hard to obtain" is actually rather draconian and outdated."
Gear isn't hard to get in general. Only top tier gear.
1. If the moment to moment game play isn't fun, then Justice Gear isn't going to make the game fun for you. The game will only feel like its a job if its not fun. It may sound harsh, but maybe its time to take a break or even quit.
2. Justice Gear isn't game changing. When I completed my set I was actually disappointed. Your build/specs have WAY more influence on how strong you are than your gear.
3. There is no content (including TA or the Q warzone) that requires JG. If you don't want it, you don't have to get it. If you just play the game for fun, eventually you will have a bunch of s/gcr and you can just buy it.
4. If you think you need JG to run "epic" content, then you only might have an excuse if your running certain ATs. 99% of FF builds can run epic content and remain in theme as long as you make smart choices in terms of synergy.
5. If your an AT and under-powered for epic content (even with the recent improvements I still think ATs could use a buff) JG probably isn't going to fix that.
The s/gcr prices situation sucks, but not as bad as people make it out to be. I think some people here actually don't like this game, but feel trapped because there aren't a lot of alternatives for super combustible super hero games.
Lastly, I don't think anything anyone says in this thread will change anything.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
I think a general concern of the 'priced too high' camp (beyond the obvious of the pricing itself) is that people would like some reassurance that this move isn't endemic of a continued focus shift towards content that will be played primarily by specific portions of the playerbase when that portion is perceived by some (at least on the forums) to be a smaller part of the general CO population (for lack of a better term, the CO raiding community). Since we don't get to see the metrics, we can't quantify the overall participation level on TA/Cosmics/upcoming Q-zone as a percentage beyond personal experience (which obviously has both positive and negative feedback, per this and other threads).
Here's a quick illustration of my personal worries, (and please take this with a grain of salt and let it sit as purely an outlying example rather than a direct comparison) but as a corollary to some folks' current content concerns, Wildstar (a game I loved and that also has/had a passionate and talented dev team) suffered some pretty significant financial setbacks for development focus that was too attenuated on 'high end raiding' when they had a product that had literally TONS of other content and components that players loved just as well.
I'm not saying we're DOOOOM'd to follow Wildstar's mistakes (which, as an aside, seems to finally be stabilizing as a free-to-play) and I'm definitely not trying to vilify the concept of a raiding community (because it's something that CO has been missing and definitely needs) but I do think some dev commentary (i.e. state of the game, forum post, etc) addressing their perspective on the balance between end game as it relates to the core product, or even just general design philosophy as it relates to treadmills, alts and casual play, might assuage (or at least redirect) some of the concerns reflected here. There's a lot of great things that have happened to CO over the last year and sometimes it helps when a gold-tagged name points at them and says, "We're still going to expand on these things too." That's my two cents.