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FC.31.20160729.8 - Justice Gear Price Changes Feedback

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  • soulforgersoulforger Posts: 1,649 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    Easy doesn't mean quick people. Its the challenge level of the content its behind that makes it easy to get. Sometimes, the easiest things to get take the longest to get. Other times, easy things come quickly. Its called RNG.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    gradii said:

    And that's why gear being "Easy" to get does not mean it has to be made harder (take longer)

    gradii said:

    made harder (take longer)

    ...you completely missed the point being made.
  • chaelkchaelk Posts: 7,732 Arc User
    xacchaeus wrote: »
    if justice is currently so easy to get, how come, after 2 years, i finally have my second piece?

    really? ON my main acct I have half the tokens I need for my first peice. Want to swap?​​
    Stuffing up Freeform builds since Mid 2011
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  • williamkonywilliamkony Posts: 582 Arc User

    So true, but the waiting around for just the right combo of key characters to show up can often make these "fights" drag out for a long time. Of course, the waiting is dull, dull, dull. Now, the obvious/ideal answer is for lots of people to create these key characters to share the burden and speed up start time. This has 2 problems. First, is that most players probably don't want to play those types of a character (e.g. I've heard a fair number of people say they hate tanking or healing). CO's catch phrase has been about playing the hero you want to be, after all. Second, even if someone created such a character they may not be any good at it.

    Third, they have to gear up such a character to function at an adequate level, which has become more and more expensive and time-consuming over time.

    Oh, hey, would you look at that? We've come full-circle.
    Dasher@Tool-box, donning his armor to prance into battle and blitz the enemy! No joke!
    Cupid@Tool-box, stunningly radiant stag ready to play matchmaker between villain and arrow!
    Vixon@Tool-box, frighteningly eager to summon despair for his adversaries!
    Jebin Zedalu@Tool-box, elementalist weaponmaster. ...One of these things is not like the others!
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User

    Third, they have to gear up such a character to function at an adequate level, which has become more and more expensive and time-consuming over time.

    You can function at an adequate level with Mercenary + Armadillo. Yes, more is better, but it really isn't as demanding as people think.
  • riveroceanriverocean Posts: 1,690 Arc User

    Third, they have to gear up such a character to function at an adequate level, which has become more and more expensive and time-consuming over time.

    You can function at an adequate level with Mercenary + Armadillo. Yes, more is better, but it really isn't as demanding as people think.
    For me this why I'm not really in a panic over gear price changes. Merc and Armadillo will still be affordable. My ALTs all use merc and purple GCR secondaries. They work just fine in most content. I don't think I'll be running TA on them but for basic lairs, adventure packs, rampages, and cosmic they are adequate. I don't need to be the top of the charts, just good enough to participate.

    And let's not forget, after years of neglect we finally have an end game worth even bothering to gear for.

    For those people who feel compelled to gear every alt with a full set of J-gear, my only question is why? Who are you trying to impress? There's no one to impress and there's no real reward for slaving away for J-gear for each and ever alt you have.
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  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    People like to feel like bad asses in video games. Especially when we're talking super hero games. Sitting here say "but you don't NEED it", is pointless. There are a lot of things we don't need, but make life more enjoyable. Being a giant ball of powerful awesomeness isn't needed, but is all sorts of fun.

    If someone wants to gear every alt in J-gear, why shouldn't they? Maybe they just want to make those characters more powerful because it's fun for them. Gearing up toons is boring. Making it take a whole lot longer doesn't help. There is also the other issue of the low player population making it hard for people to even do the content to get the gear they want.
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  • squirrelloidsquirrelloid Posts: 869 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    Pretty much every alteration made to the game in the last 9 months has made it worse (leaving aside only new powers, costumes, and the tailor revamp). I find myself barely logging on to play anymore, and then i have to drag myself on to do it. This change is just another bad idea.

    I enjoyed just playing the game, not grinding for things, especially not in a way that punishes me for playing alts. And especially not grinding for tokens/currency. So incredibly boring. Replacing a small handful of rampage tokens with the exact same currency you want for everything else, in mind-numbing quantities, is beyond dumb.

    The only grind that's ever any fun is when interesting stuff drops, and there's enough variety of interesting stuff that *something* can drop every time.

    At the current rate, the playerbase actually playing the game is going to be like 50 players within a year. Take this elitist 'must grind forever for the best gear on every toon' attitude somewhere else where people actually care. CO has never been about 'difficulty', and virtually all the difficulty is fake. And grinding isn't hard, it's just boring.

    It would have been far better for the game if all of the effort that has gone into GCR, cosmics, TA, etc... had instead been spent revamping nemesis stuff and working on foundry. It's like you want to do what every other MMO is doing, but badly, instead of doing what the genre is best at doing.

    Whatever, it is increasingly true that there are better games to play, even if they aren't superhero games. Feel free to ruin the game however you like.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User

    Third, they have to gear up such a character to function at an adequate level, which has become more and more expensive and time-consuming over time.

    Oh, hey, would you look at that? We've come full-circle.

    What do you people consider an "adequate level"?
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User

    I enjoyed just playing the game, not grinding for things, especially not in a way that punishes me for playing alts.

    Bull. If you enjoyed "just playing the game" then nothing has changed for you... you can still "just play the game" and not grind for things. Literally nothing has been taken away from you in this regard - everything you could do a year ago as far as content is still open to you.

    The only person forcing you to grind, is you, and your desire for that sweet sweet endorphin rush.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    sterga said:

    People like to feel like bad asses in video games. Especially when we're talking super hero games. Sitting here say "but you don't NEED it", is pointless. There are a lot of things we don't need, but make life more enjoyable. Being a giant ball of powerful awesomeness isn't needed, but is all sorts of fun.

    You can be a bad **** without top-end gear. In fact, top-end gear doesn't actually add very much to your character in terms of power.
    sterga said:

    If someone wants to gear every alt in J-gear, why shouldn't they? Maybe they just want to make those characters more powerful because it's fun for them. Gearing up toons is boring. Making it take a whole lot longer doesn't help. There is also the other issue of the low player population making it hard for people to even do the content to get the gear they want.

    I don't think anybody is saying people shouldn't be allowed to gear any character they want in J-gear. Making it take a while to get J-gear isn't actually preventing anyone from doing so either.

    "gearing up toons is boring" ...so playing the game is boring? Then what is gear going to do for you? Make it more exciting for you to stand around not playing the game?
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  • squirrelloidsquirrelloid Posts: 869 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    spinnytop said:

    Third, they have to gear up such a character to function at an adequate level, which has become more and more expensive and time-consuming over time.

    Oh, hey, would you look at that? We've come full-circle.

    What do you people consider an "adequate level"?
    Purple is adequate. There's a number of builds which simply don't work with less. Actually, i've got a couple builds that wouldn't work without Legion or better, because of energy issues with the lower gear. I know because going from Heroic to Justice made them work.

    Gating character builds behind either cash or GCR is obnoxious. I at least didn't mind playing rampages, but all the GCR content is elitist nonsense that I have no interest in (and stupidly time intensive in teh case of TA). So yay, let's make everything require GCR so people have to play that garbage content. And yes, I've done some cosmics, and it's the most boring and lame fake difficulty thing in the game. There's like 2-3 people actually doing anything that requires a brain, and everyone else just mashes buttons and hopes they don't screw it up. The same 'challenge' could have been accomplished for 5 people, except with less random faceplanting because the cosmic rotated 5 degrees accidentally - oh wait, isn't that pretty much TA?

    There's no reason to completely homogenize endgame gear and make everyone play that content.

    I'd probably care less if a full set of Heroic hadn't been turned from a couple hour thing to a couple week thing. But you already burned that bridge for what is now going to be 5th tier gear. I mean, seriously? But even then, builds that require 4 mod slots, they exist.

    And making it take months to get adequate gear for a build is basically saying 'don't play that build' to anyone who likes to alt. It takes two days to go from start to 40. After three weeks altaholics are past ready to move on.
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,537 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    spinnytop said:

    You can be a bad **** without top-end gear. In fact, top-end gear doesn't actually add very much to your character in terms of power.

    That's completely untrue. Since the PTS lets you quickly grab the best mods and gear in the game, I figured I'd compare it to the Heroic gear I'm currently using. The difference is pretty big. More damage, more health, more energy--all to a very noticeable degree. As in, "let me pull more than one pack of quildsklfagpoth things or destroids and still down them without breaking a sweat."

    In lower end gear, you can pretend you're a badass all you want, and maybe your build is good enough to be fairly badass. However, once someone in full a full set of that top-end gear ends up on your team, you'll quickly realize how non-badass your character actually is.

    Edit: I invite you to try prepping one of your alts on the PTS with some merc gear, lower rank mods, and mediocre secondaries. Have a set of distinguished with all the best mods as well, but keep it in your inventory for now. March your **** into the Q zone, try killing some things and make note of your performance. Now, put on the good stuff. If you don't see a massive performance and survivability increase, then there's something wrong with you.
    spinnytop said:

    "gearing up toons is boring" ...so playing the game is boring? Then what is gear going to do for you? Make it more exciting for you to stand around not playing the game?

    In STO, gearing up is also boring, but thankfully, it's a lot faster so players can get to the good stuff. Running missions and new content in good gear is a lot more fun than running that same content in junky blues and greens. Just because people find gearing up to be boring, that doesn't mean they find the game itself boring. And why does the lower-end Heroic gear also have to be such a grind right along with the justice/distinguished gear?
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • phasestarphasestar Posts: 126 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    It's clear that, for whatever reason, the devs are entrenched and not budging on this issue despite the request for feedback. Gearing up even one character with higher end gear (not even mentioning the ludicrous idea of gearing up all my alts) does not even seem achievable - it's taken over a year to get close to getting one piece for one character and now it will be out of reach again. I don't understand a system where the reward is so far away that no casual player will realistically achieve it before passing out from boredom. If you want players to do the end-game content and enjoy it rather than experiencing a level of mind-numbing repetition, then make the multiple tiers of gear gradually harder to achieve rather than putting them all at a very high level, at least until there is more end-game content.

    With all that said, I am very grateful to have an active development team again and my one hope is that the new warzone will at least provide a more interesting way to earn SCR and GCR as I just don't like the cosmics (I did them each three times, died a LOT despite following the recommended tactics and really have no interest in going through hours of that again) and never seem to be online when people are doing TA.
  • phasestarphasestar Posts: 126 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    Double post.
  • gogoginga1gogoginga1 Posts: 107 Arc User
    edited August 2016

    this pricing just feels like its removing content from the game for those that don't already have the gear to grind for it and beating dirty alts with a stick for existing (( everything seems to be bind on pick up now , so I cant give it to the characters that need it to help grind for the stuff to get gear))

    anyone remember unity missions and unity two missions , they had the silver rec reduced (( god alone knows why )) to a point of being not worth the effort and silver rec prices on everything soared ,and they were supposed to be end content , why not re-tweak them and give players a way of earning gold rec , even a small amount for us horrible despicable casual gamers (( you know the guys that buy a lot of your stuff ))

    armadillo samurai and the energy set are going to be priced to be unfeasible to use , why is content being priced to a point or virtually removing it from most players grasp , lets face it the grind for stuff is getting to a point where bashing myself in a the face with a stick is more enjoyable, so why would I bother with it , just delete the stuff from the game and be honest about it

    (( yes its getting irritating I don't apologise for my rant , you have a great game , and opportunity's are being flushed away and I despair to see it happening ))
  • williamkonywilliamkony Posts: 582 Arc User

    Third, they have to gear up such a character to function at an adequate level, which has become more and more expensive and time-consuming over time.

    You can function at an adequate level with Mercenary + Armadillo. Yes, more is better, but it really isn't as demanding as people think.
    The cost of those have gone up, too.
    Dasher@Tool-box, donning his armor to prance into battle and blitz the enemy! No joke!
    Cupid@Tool-box, stunningly radiant stag ready to play matchmaker between villain and arrow!
    Vixon@Tool-box, frighteningly eager to summon despair for his adversaries!
    Jebin Zedalu@Tool-box, elementalist weaponmaster. ...One of these things is not like the others!
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User

    The cost of those have gone up, too.

    Before: 50,000Q for merc, 11,000Q for Armadillo. Total for merc primary/arma secondary: 183,000Q
    After: 35,000 for merc, 20,000Q for Armadillo sec. Total for merc primary/arma secondary: 165,000Q
  • phasestarphasestar Posts: 126 Arc User
    I wonder if SCR/GCR is going to become something which, like questionite, they will eventually connect to a zen exchange and that's why the costs are going as high as they are?
  • williamkonywilliamkony Posts: 582 Arc User
    edited August 2016

    The cost of those have gone up, too.

    Before: 50,000Q for merc, 11,000Q for Armadillo. Total for merc primary/arma secondary: 183,000Q
    After: 35,000 for merc, 20,000Q for Armadillo sec. Total for merc primary/arma secondary: 165,000Q
    Ah, right, Mercenary dropped. My thoughts were on Armadillo.

    Really, though, those AREN'T adequate for at least Teleiosaurus with its disgustingly high DPS check, and a DPS character would need to make some sacrifices or have attentive teammates to survive Kigatilik. Would need to happen upon a nice and charitable team to partake in TA, as well.
    Dasher@Tool-box, donning his armor to prance into battle and blitz the enemy! No joke!
    Cupid@Tool-box, stunningly radiant stag ready to play matchmaker between villain and arrow!
    Vixon@Tool-box, frighteningly eager to summon despair for his adversaries!
    Jebin Zedalu@Tool-box, elementalist weaponmaster. ...One of these things is not like the others!
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    aesica said:

    That's completely untrue.

    It is 100% true. Just because you can't do it doesn't make it impossible.

    Purple is adequate.

    Right, "the best gear in the game is what I need to play at an adequate level". I'll just let that sit.
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,537 Arc User
    spinnytop said:

    aesica said:

    That's completely untrue.

    It is 100% true. Just because you can't do it doesn't make it impossible.
    You obviously didn't read my whole post. That's okay, I'll quote part of it for you to help with your reading comprehension problem:
    Aesica said:

    In lower end gear, you can pretend you're a badass all you want, and maybe your build is good enough to be fairly badass. However, once someone in full a full set of that top-end gear ends up on your team, you'll quickly realize how non-badass your character actually is.

    spinnytop said:

    Purple is adequate.

    Right, "the best gear in the game is what I need to play at an adequate level". I'll just let that sit.
    You realize "the best gear in the game" is gold as of the PTS. Right? This is to set it apart from the lower-tier purple stuff. I'll just let that sit.
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • chaelkchaelk Posts: 7,732 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    The cost of those have gone up, too.
    Before: 50,000Q for merc, 11,000Q for Armadillo. Total for merc primary/arma secondary: 183,000Q
    After: 35,000 for merc, 20,000Q for Armadillo sec. Total for merc primary/arma secondary: 165,000Q

    Ah, right, Mercenary dropped. My thoughts were on Armadillo.

    Really, though, those AREN'T adequate for at least Teleiosaurus with its disgustingly high DPS check, and a DPS character would need to make some sacrifices or have attentive teammates to survive Kigatilik. Would need to happen upon a nice and charitable team to partake in TA, as well.

    dino yes. I die a lot because I can't always remember which to block and once baby turns up..... splat
    But I've been running Kigatilik on an Unleashed in a mix of merc/heroic with normal purple secondaries. grand total of 6.5k hps.
    after working out the attack , block, spam aoe(in case of ice blocks) cycle, I rarely die unless a dog gets loose
    my FF which did TA was in heroic/merc gear too, similar hps.​​
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User

    The cost of those have gone up, too.

    Before: 50,000Q for merc, 11,000Q for Armadillo. Total for merc primary/arma secondary: 183,000Q
    After: 35,000 for merc, 20,000Q for Armadillo sec. Total for merc primary/arma secondary: 165,000Q
    Ah, right, Mercenary dropped. My thoughts were on Armadillo.

    Really, though, those AREN'T adequate for at least Teleiosaurus with its disgustingly high DPS check, and a DPS character would need to make some sacrifices or have attentive teammates to survive Kigatilik. Would need to happen upon a nice and charitable team to partake in TA, as well.
    The DPS requirement to pass a Teleiosaurus check is 2,000 for 5s (teleiosaurus has moderately high damage resistance, but not that high). Any actual dps build (offensive passive, dps role) can do that easily in merc/armadillo. Kigatilik is actually easier to survive in merc/armadillo than in higher end gear, because of that 25% damage resistance.
  • williamkonywilliamkony Posts: 582 Arc User
    aesica said:

    You realize "the best gear in the game" is gold as of the PTS. Right? This is to set it apart from the lower-tier purple stuff. I'll just let that sit.

    Why are you still responding to Spinny? They're not actually in this to prove any sort of point, they're just trying to get a rise out of people, as always. o_o
    Dasher@Tool-box, donning his armor to prance into battle and blitz the enemy! No joke!
    Cupid@Tool-box, stunningly radiant stag ready to play matchmaker between villain and arrow!
    Vixon@Tool-box, frighteningly eager to summon despair for his adversaries!
    Jebin Zedalu@Tool-box, elementalist weaponmaster. ...One of these things is not like the others!
  • nacito#6758 nacito Posts: 984 Arc User

    xacchaeus said:

    to make cosmics fun again they could roll them back a few updates, but then to counter them being easier, the could cut the reward back. spent 2 hours over the last two days (mon night, tues morning) on the dino (probably the same one)... right now the cosmics are boring, tedious, and not fun

    The problem with the dino is that it's the only cosmic where the average power/skill of the characters matters much. There are a small number of key players for each Cosmic:
    Kigatilik:
    Key Players: dog tank, main tank, main tank healer, dps healer, and a couple of people to focus down ice tombs; a backup tank is good to have but not essential.
    Everyone Else: if you can avoid dying, avoid disrupting dog control, avoid stealing aggro, and not kill people with hidden tombs, you're golden.
    Qwyjibo:
    Key Players: heart CCers (typically you want either two, or one and a secondary cc/healer), main tanks, main tank healers.
    Everyone Else: if you can figure out not shooting the hearts, you're good.
    Teleiosaurus:
    Key Players: main tanks, baby tank, main tank healers, baby tank healer.
    Everyone Else: Can you manage an average of 2,000 dps for 5s against a target with fairly high damage resistance, while possibly being disrupted by the baby's AoEs.

    One of these things is not like the others.
    I knew there is a problem with baby :/ if they actually get rid of his AoEs it would be on pair with the other 2
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    aesica said:

    In lower end gear, you can pretend you're a badass all you want, and maybe your build is good enough to be fairly badass. However, once someone in full a full set of that top-end gear ends up on your team, you'll quickly realize how non-badass your character actually is.

    So your real complaint is "other players have better stuff than me and I'm envious".

    The basic response to that is "If you're not a PvPer, stop comparing yourself to other players." As long as every content in the game can be done with easily obtained gear, the existence of higher tier gear really only matters for ego, and it takes more than just gear if you really want to compete for top scores in open missions.
  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User

    So your real complaint is "other players have better stuff than me and I'm envious".

    CO is a stats game, not a skill game. A highly geared character is going to rofl-stomp most content. A moderately geared toon may do just fine on their own. Now pair them up. Guess who ends up doing less because one toon is so much more powerful? Some people actually like being able to feel useful with their toons and not a fifth wheel.
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  • kyastralkyastral Posts: 342 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    sterga said:

    So your real complaint is "other players have better stuff than me and I'm envious".

    CO is a stats game, not a skill game. A highly geared character is going to rofl-stomp most content. A moderately geared toon may do just fine on their own. Now pair them up. Guess who ends up doing less because one toon is so much more powerful? Some people actually like being able to feel useful with their toons and not a fifth wheel.
    What is considered *useful participation?* Different people will have different answers. Team members participate in different ways and on different levels. Each group situation requires different strategies to complete the goal. Lets use your example; if that pair of heroes come upon a supervillian and henchmen, will they survive? Maybe; it would depend upon the powers of those toons and the skill of the players. A damage dealer is not going to think less of a healer if the healer performs as expected, and vice versa. If the moderately gear toon took care of the trash mobs while the higher geared toon concentrated on the boss, would the former be less useful in participating than the latter? I think not.


    Gear is only as useful as the player who equips it on their toon. Having the best gear does not guarantee anything; it is the skill of the player that matters. The only way a highly geared toon is going to breeze through content is if the player knows the mechanics of that content. I am sure that there are players with high-end gear/mods that still cannot complete Gravitar or Fire and Ice without a defeat or few.

    I disagree about CO being a stats game: Fantasy/Sci Fi Strategy MMO's are stats games. CO doesnt have NEARLY as many stats to consider as those two. CO doesnt account for armor class, gear durability, hunger, thirst, character physique, character weight, factions (no player enemy class here; aka no player villians), coin weight, charisma (no bribing the vendors here) and so on.
  • soulforgersoulforger Posts: 1,649 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    kyastral said:

    What is considered *useful participation?* Different people will have different answers. Team members participate in different ways and on different levels. Each group situation requires different strategies to complete the goal. Lets use your example; if that pair of heroes come upon a supervillian and henchmen, will they survive? Maybe; it would depend upon the powers of those toons and the skill of the players. A damage dealer is not going to think less of a healer if the healer performs as expected, and vice versa. If the moderately gear toon took care of the trash mobs while the higher geared toon concentrated on the boss, would the former be less useful in participating than the latter? I think not.


    Gear is only as useful as the player who equips it on their toon. Having the best gear does not guarantee anything; it is the skill of the player that matters. The only way a highly geared toon is going to breeze through content is if the player knows the mechanics of that content. I am sure that there are players with high-end gear/mods that still cannot complete Gravitar or Fire and Ice without a defeat or few.

    I disagree about CO being a stats game: Fantasy/Sci Fi Strategy MMO's are stats games. CO doesnt have NEARLY as many stats to consider as those two. CO doesnt account for armor class, gear durability, hunger, thirst, character physique, character weight, factions (no player enemy class here; aka no player villians), coin weight, charisma (no bribing the vendors here) and so on.

    This is, for the most part, true. This is more of a skill game than it is gear, though Sterga is partially right about those in end-game gear doing better. But, that's just barely better really. Only way they could make this game a true skill based game is to get rid of gear. But they won't do that, so, this game will have some stat-based measurements in it. But for the most part this game is a skill based game. After all, not blocking an attack that does 100k damage will one-shot you regardless of your gear.
  • xrazamaxxrazamax Posts: 979 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    gradii said:

    Devs ask for feedback on changes. Devs get mountains of negative feedback on said changes. Devs don't budge on their decision, ignoring said feedback entirely.

    What pray tell, is the point of asking for feedback then?

    They'll consider suggestions, but there are reasons for why they are doing what they are doing. For all the walls of text people have written, there is little substance in peoples long rants of game design design philosophy along with the ridiculous accusations and insinuations (Elitist plot, devs secretly hate the game, more grind to fluff the game, it is going to be a money grab in the future).

    The facts are this: Justice Gear is intended to be legendary gear that not everyone has or gets. It is meant to be rare, hard to obtain. Whether a player thinks it should be or not doesn't matter, this is what the devs envision and want for it to be as they have stated multiple times. There are other gears in the game more obtainable for players that the devs designing content around. So all the comments of how important gear is, how people only have X amount of time to play or how they have a ton of alts - it isn't relevant. Justice Gear is designed to be rare, hard to obtain, and probably not something you'll have for all or even most your alts.

    Now, if feedback is given with the facts in mind, they usually make adjustments. However, much of the feedback left by people usually tries to argue the very basis of why these changes are even made, and those are not things up for discussion. Not to say that some people don't make valid or well thought out points, but nothing is going to change the fact the cost are changing. If people want their feedback listened to, they should adjust it so that it reflects this reality and leave feedback on how these cost changes are made and not on whether they should be made..
  • williamkonywilliamkony Posts: 582 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    "No, no, I don't want your thoughts on if it's a good idea to shove sea urchins in my pants, I just want to know what you think is the best way to do it."
    Dasher@Tool-box, donning his armor to prance into battle and blitz the enemy! No joke!
    Cupid@Tool-box, stunningly radiant stag ready to play matchmaker between villain and arrow!
    Vixon@Tool-box, frighteningly eager to summon despair for his adversaries!
    Jebin Zedalu@Tool-box, elementalist weaponmaster. ...One of these things is not like the others!
  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,318 Arc User
    kyastral wrote: »
    A damage dealer is not going to think less of a healer if the healer performs as expected...
    We obviously haven't been playing in the same Alerts. :smile: (Either that, or someone expected the healer would also be able to DPS the boss...)​​
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

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  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    Just because CO doesn't have 1000 different stats to micromanage doesn't mean it doesn't have stats and that the power of your toon isn't heavily reliant on those stats.

    If you could take a level 1 toon into Rampage Gravitar, that toon would be useless. Even with the stat boost from pretend level 40, you have a character with crappy (no) gear to scale up from, no superstats, and two powers with a limited selection. No amount of skill is going to make up from lack of stats.

    Even the difference in power from level 39 to 40 can be huge. The only real difference between 39 and 40 is you put better gear on your toons. Most builds would be complete outside of gear by lvl 39.

    Most attacks hit your character. Period. There are few bosses that have skill shot attacks. The damage an enemy does has to take into account the stats of the players that the content is intended for. Yes, even the attacks you are expected to block. Those attacks tend to hit you, giving you basically no choice but to block. "Block or die" is hardly a skill.

    Being able to pay attention and push buttons isn't exactly much skill.

    4-slot gear and slotted secondaries allow builds to be tanky, high dps, and not need a healer, especially when abusing wardicator / guardicator and / or Juggernaut. There is very little content that needs a dedicated healer or tank.

    For characters that don't know everything, higher end gear is going to make up for their weaker builds that don't use all of the easy-cheesy tricks. So, even for players who aren't min / max build masters, those extra stats are going to help quite a bit.

    Do you think it is motivating to a person with modest gear to see someone with a similar build but max gear doing much better knowing how grindy that gear is to get? How many people are going to do the "end game" content if it keeps getting made for people with higher stats when getting better gear involves a giant grind or throwing your wallet at the screen? Why should getting Justice gear by actually playing the game be so grindy when Legion gear is "good enough" (if merc gear is "good enough", legion must be incredible) and can be obtained with your wallet in a single day with zero effort?
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  • soulforgersoulforger Posts: 1,649 Arc User
    jonsills said:



    We obviously haven't been playing in the same Alerts. :smile: (Either that, or someone expected the healer would also be able to DPS the boss...)​​

    Fun fact about alerts and support toons, vast majority of them are not healers.
  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,318 Arc User
    soulforger wrote: »
    Fun fact about alerts and support toons, vast majority of them are not healers.
    Was in one just the other day - the Grab alert with the time machine in Vibora, IIRC - where the healer was keeping almost everyone up except one guy whose only attack powers seemed to be melee. He wanted to tank that way, too. At several points, he was berating the healer for not doing enough damage to the mooks, even though the heals were the only reason the rest of us were able to keep fighting.

    (Meanwhile, of course, he was taking time away from his own fighting to type these messages, unless he just had macros set up for the specific purpose of yelling at his teammates...)​​
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

    - David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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  • soulforgersoulforger Posts: 1,649 Arc User
    jonsills said:


    Was in one just the other day - the Grab alert with the time machine in Vibora, IIRC - where the healer was keeping almost everyone up except one guy whose only attack powers seemed to be melee. He wanted to tank that way, too. At several points, he was berating the healer for not doing enough damage to the mooks, even though the heals were the only reason the rest of us were able to keep fighting.



    (Meanwhile, of course, he was taking time away from his own fighting to type these messages, unless he just had macros set up for the specific purpose of yelling at his teammates...)​​

    Unfortunately, there are idiots like that in the game.
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,553 Arc User
    Umm, surely the devs knew that the suggested changes for JG were going to generate walls of negative criticism (justified or not)? If that's the case, and if they were never going to take that criticism into account (i.e. they had already decided what they are going to do before creating the thread and nothing was going to change their minds in any way shape or form), why bother starting a thread asking for feedback about it? I just can't see the point to that. I'm sure they aren't naive enough to think that there was going to be massive and instant delirium over the change that supported their view of the matter.

    At this point I'd just like to know how much longer we have to grind for tokens and get JG the good old-fashioned, once acceptable way before the dreary alt-hostile gcr system is put in place.
    xrazamax said:


    They'll consider suggestions, but there are reasons for why they are doing what they are doing. For all the walls of text people have written, there is little substance in peoples long rants of game design design philosophy along with the ridiculous accusations and insinuations (Elitist plot, devs secretly hate the game, more grind to fluff the game, it is going to be a money grab in the future).

    The facts are this: Justice Gear is intended to be legendary gear that not everyone has or gets. It is meant to be rare, hard to obtain. Whether a player thinks it should be or not doesn't matter, this is what the devs envision and want for it to be as they have stated multiple times. There are other gears in the game more obtainable for players that the devs designing content around. So all the comments of how important gear is, how people only have X amount of time to play or how they have a ton of alts - it isn't relevant. Justice Gear is designed to be rare, hard to obtain, and probably not something you'll have for all or even most your alts.

    Now, if feedback is given with the facts in mind, they usually make adjustments. However, much of the feedback left by people usually tries to argue the very basis of why these changes are even made, and those are not things up for discussion. Not to say that some people don't make valid or well thought out points, but nothing is going to change the fact the cost are changing. If people want their feedback listened to, they should adjust it so that it reflects this reality and leave feedback on how these cost changes are made and not on whether they should be made..

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  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,553 Arc User
    Personally, I have no problem with people paying money for good gear. E.g. if grinding out a set of JG takes 70 hours (that's about what it takes me) I have no problem with someone kicking in money to shorten that grind in some way. After all, people already can use real money to buy keys to sell for Gs to buy Legion gear and high rank mods already. If people are willing to throw their wallet at the game for JG, OV or gcr stuff, that likely means more dev time for the game.
    sterga said:


    Do you think it is motivating to a person with modest gear to see someone with a similar build but max gear doing much better knowing how grindy that gear is to get? How many people are going to do the "end game" content if it keeps getting made for people with higher stats when getting better gear involves a giant grind or throwing your wallet at the screen? Why should getting Justice gear by actually playing the game be so grindy when Legion gear is "good enough" (if merc gear is "good enough", legion must be incredible) and can be obtained with your wallet in a single day with zero effort?

    JwLmWoa.png
    Perseus, Captain Arcane, Tectonic Knight, Pankration, Siberiad, Sekhmet, Black Seraph, Clockwork
    Project Attalus: Saving the world so you don't have to!
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,537 Arc User

    So your real complaint is "other players have better stuff than me and I'm envious".

    The basic response to that is "If you're not a PvPer, stop comparing yourself to other players." As long as every content in the game can be done with easily obtained gear, the existence of higher tier gear really only matters for ego, and it takes more than just gear if you really want to compete for top scores in open missions.

    That's an awfully negative take on why I, or anyone, might want better gear. "Can be done" isn't the same as "can be done well or enjoyably." I'm thinking in much larger terms than just "for personal ego" or "his gearpeen is longer than mine, so jelly!" Having better gear means:

    1) I can contribute more to my group rather than feeling like I'm just along for the ride or getting carried.

    2) It means I can enjoy more of the game solo, without feeling like I need to group for frivolous that like quests that recommend 2 or more players.

    3) Build functionality and energy management become better as gear improves, making gameplay smoother overall. This could be blamed largely on the game's awful design regarding energy more than anything else though.
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • soulforgersoulforger Posts: 1,649 Arc User
    aesica said:


    That's an awfully negative take on why I, or anyone, might want better gear. "Can be done" isn't the same as "can be done well or enjoyably." I'm thinking in much larger terms than just "for personal ego" or "his gearpeen is longer than mine, so jelly!" Having better gear means:

    1) I can contribute more to my group rather than feeling like I'm just along for the ride or getting carried.

    2) It means I can enjoy more of the game solo, without feeling like I need to group for frivolous that like quests that recommend 2 or more players.

    3) Build functionality and energy management become better as gear improves, making gameplay smoother overall. This could be blamed largely on the game's awful design regarding energy more than anything else though.

    Eh, my main is in legion with vig gear, and I heal with the best of them, gear really isn't that important as some say it is. Now, if they made gear that really did make the end game content easy for that player, like, for example, the cosmic set had a flat damage reduction of 50% that was added to your Damage reduction without hitting d.returns, than it would really matter. That's not to say that gear isn't an important factor in the grand scheme of things, for it has its place as a stat padder.
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,537 Arc User
    ^ Legion gear is actually semi-decent. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's somewhere between Heroic and Justice/Distinguished, right?
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User

    Umm, surely the devs knew that the suggested changes for JG were going to generate walls of negative criticism (justified or not)? If that's the case, and if they were never going to take that criticism into account (i.e. they had already decided what they are going to do before creating the thread and nothing was going to change their minds in any way shape or form), why bother starting a thread asking for feedback about it?

    xrazamax already answered your questions quite nicely.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    jonsills said:


    Was in one just the other day - the Grab alert with the time machine in Vibora, IIRC - where the healer was keeping almost everyone up except one guy whose only attack powers seemed to be melee. He wanted to tank that way, too. At several points, he was berating the healer for not doing enough damage to the mooks, even though the heals were the only reason the rest of us were able to keep fighting.



    (Meanwhile, of course, he was taking time away from his own fighting to type these messages, unless he just had macros set up for the specific purpose of yelling at his teammates...)​​

    Well you know, sometimes people will complain about what someone is doing, even though that person is doing things exactly the right way.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    aesica said:


    That's an awfully negative take on why I, or anyone, might want better gear. "Can be done" isn't the same as "can be done well or enjoyably." I'm thinking in much larger terms than just "for personal ego" or "his gearpeen is longer than mine, so jelly!" Having better gear means:

    1) I can contribute more to my group rather than feeling like I'm just along for the ride or getting carried.

    2) It means I can enjoy more of the game solo, without feeling like I need to group for frivolous that like quests that recommend 2 or more players.

    3) Build functionality and energy management become better as gear improves, making gameplay smoother overall. This could be blamed largely on the game's awful design regarding energy more than anything else though.

    Panta is right on the money when he says you're obsessed with gear. The fact that you imply that content "cannot be done enjoyable" unless you have a certain level of gear proves that.

    1,2 - You feel this way because you're obsessed with gear and in your mind have built it up to be way more of a factor than it is.

    3 - I see you still haven't figured out your energy problems. That's unfortunate for you.
  • darqaura2darqaura2 Posts: 932 Arc User
    aesica said:

    ^ Legion gear is actually semi-decent. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's somewhere between Heroic and Justice/Distinguished, right?

    Kinda. legion can basically nearly be bought with real money also.
This discussion has been closed.