FC.31.20160729.8 - Justice Gear Price Changes Feedback

kaiserin · August 2016

Please post feedback relating to the recent changes to the pricing for Justice gear here.

Please format any bugs you find in the following format:
Bug
Where it happens
What happens

Please format any suggestions you have in the following format:
Suggestion
Your suggestion

Please stay on topic in this PTS thread. We use bug reports from this thread to decide whether a PTS build is ready to go live, and so we need to make sure we're seeing everything in it. Please do discuss the changes, but if you find yourself writing about something that isn't specific to what's on PTS, then that should probably go here: http://forum.arcgames.com/championsonline/categories/gameplay-bugs1.
Posts that do not specifically pertain to the current PTS patch will be removed.

soulforger · August 2016

As stated, most people are unhappy with the change in price. The tokens are to rare to be useful, SCR and GCR rates to small to make the grind bearable. etc etc. I understand the move, gating end-game gear behind end-game content. It makes sense. And for most players that already got Justice gear on those they want it on, this will not effect them at all.

You can do a few things to make up for all the price hikes.
1. Have rampages drop GCR, though it quickly falls after maybe three runs daily (to put it on par with the cosmics).
2. Increase SCR rewards everywhere so that is not as much a pita to grind.
3. Increase the token drop rates. Maybe make them a 50% rate to be fair, and have them not bind so people can send them to other toons (maybe bind on account on pickup to prevent selling them? Or maybe have them never bind in the first place to encourage people selling them? I don't know, I only recently became a game designer, so I'm still learning game designing.)

Do all three of those, and people will mostly stop complaining.

xrazamax · August 2016

Just a reminder: The effort it takes to acquire Justice Gear is currently much lower than what it takes to get Distinguished Gear (although you are forced to wait for rampages to rotate and must pray to RNGods). In addition, for the majority of players Justice Gear preforms better. Remember this when making any suggestions because the one thing that won't change is the devs wanting to make Justice Gear cost more closely to Distinguished.

I do think a very good idea would be to make rampages drop GCR. I DO NOT like that Superdense diamonds are needed more than other tokens. I get that this is because Gravitar has been by far the easiest Rampage and people probably have a treasure chest full of them laying around, but it sets bad precedence. The rampage difficulties should be brought more in line with each other, not given up on and assumed Gravitar is just going to be super easy and Sky Command will always take forever.

riverocean · August 2016

I agree. It may be time to retire rampage tokens altogether. Of course that would mean an increase in t he GCR/SCR costs for Justice gear to compensate.

I'm not sure if the community is ready for that.

For myself, I don't mind the current set up. I don't think it's that outrageous to require a good amount of effort to get end-game gear. End game gear shouldn't be easy to get. And every alt doesn't need to be outfitted to the utmost degree to be effective. With the exception of TA -- this game is perfectly playable without the best possible gear.

qawsada · August 2016

If you are actually going through this with, at least consider how the SCR cost has always been a pain in the ****. Getting a full set of Distinguish Gear was a pain in the **** not because of the GCR, but because how SCR require twice amount of GCR and the content that you have to farm them is meh (daily alert with Burst, Rampage with LI or SC on, Adventure Pack if bugged and way too long for 10 SCR, the entire UNITY 1 and 2 Quest line). Either do what soulforger mention and increase the reward yield for SCR, make it cost as equal or less than GCR, or just cut the SCR out entirely. We are already farming many different tokens just for one set of gear, don't make it worse with this SCR cost grind.

deadman20 · August 2016

Keep in mind that the SCR and GCR rewards for missions inside of the Warzone have not been enabled yet. We don't know how good of a source the zone will be for SCR/GCR yet. For all we know, the extra rewards could ease the acquisition of the recognition, or not be worth the time investment as many claim to be the fate of UNITY Dailies. We won't know until we're shown the numbers for them.

Until that's been done, I'll reserve my opinion for the Justice Gear Price Changes.

soulforger · August 2016

Seems some people forget that cosmics give out 10 SCR per defeat. 3 times per day. I believe even TA gives SCR. But its still a pain to grind even with those.

qawsada · August 2016

soulforger said:
Seems some people forget that cosmics give out 10 SCR per defeat. 3 times per day.

I'm aware of that, but the cost wouldn't catch up normally with the GCR because of the double cost. Having grinding two Distinguish Gear set for two tanks, by the time they get the second part of the set, they both reduce their SCR count to 0. These tanks also did the daily alert that isn't Burst, some TA, Fire and Ice Rampage, custom alerts, and in some vain attempt of desperation, a few Unity 1 quest line by the time they hit the second gear.

magpieuk2014 · August 2016

I understand why you want to add a GCR requirement to the price of Justice Gear - the best gear only being obtainable through the toughest game content - but it's not really reasonable to do it now, without a review of Rampages, their difficulty level, and the way they drop tokens.

At the moment Rampages are... a bit annoying. Uneven in difficulty, with random rewards. That needs smoothing out.

Rampages are level 35+ content. So pitch them that way; a pre-end game, giving part-tokens through repeated play, not 100% RNG (Fragments, so that x successful plays = x fragments = 1 token). Remove the need for super-specialist, high-end builds (frost tanks) in order for there to be any chance of success. Add a new set of pre-end game gear as the first reward for Rampage tokens - Heroic Gear, even, or similar (maybe some moddable Heroic secondaries), but keep them as a requirement for the uber high end gear (x Rampage Token (of any kind) + y GCR = Justice Gear). Then you're giving the player base a choice of what they play to get what they want.

soulforger · August 2016

magpieuk2014 said:
I understand why you want to add a GCR requirement to the price of Justice Gear - the best gear only being obtainable through the toughest game content - but it's not really reasonable to do it now, without a review of Rampages, their difficulty level, and the way they drop tokens.

At the moment Rampages are... a bit annoying. Uneven in difficulty, with random rewards. That needs smoothing out.

Rampages are level 35+ content. So pitch them that way; a pre-end game, giving part-tokens through repeated play, not 100% RNG (Fragments, so that x successful plays = x fragments = 1 token). Remove the need for super-specialist, high-end builds (frost tanks) in order for there to be any chance of success. Add a new set of pre-end game gear as the first reward for Rampage tokens - Heroic Gear, even, or similar (maybe some moddable Heroic secondaries), but keep them as a requirement for the uber high end gear (x Rampage Token (of any kind) + y GCR = Justice Gear). Then you're giving the player base a choice of what they play to get what they want.

Not really a choice give that distinguished and determination gear cost only SCR and GCR. If you want to give them a choice of Rampage or TA/Cosmics, they would have to either 1: Create new TA/Cosmic only tokens that the D gear would take (bad idea), or 2: remove the tokens from justice gear and raise their SCR and GCR prices to the price of the D gear (better idea).

magpieuk2014 · August 2016

I don't know about Distinguished and Determination Gear, I'm afraid. Onslaught, TA and the Cosmics are so godawfully unplayable, to me, that I've not even looked in the shop.

Rampages are a "super alert", available at 35+, so their first/primary reward should be skewed towards players at that level. However (to ensure they keep a reliable level of success) level 40 players should be encouraged to keep playing them... which my suggestion does, as their tokens would still be needed for Justice.

beerbane · August 2016

As mentioned in the other thread, regardless of how the Justice Gear pricing shakes out I still think it would be a great change if we could purchase the individual Rampage tokens from the vendor with GCR/SCR. Even if they are priced prohibitively, this would help people like me that just can't seem to catch a break with the RNG on certain tokens.

sigmaseven0 · August 2016

It feels like Rampages (the old endgame system) are being displaced and the devs are having a hard time figuring out what to do with them and how to keep them relevant. It feels like they are being shoehorned Into the new endgame.

Rampages aren't cosmic level difficulty, so that makes it even more awkward. I think the best solution is to rethink Rampages into being a path to a gear tier that sits below Justice.

tkitteh · August 2016

Feed back assumes no changes in GCR from rampages, or token rarity changes or binding

Had a feeling we were getting a worse system when people asked for it.

Current LIVE system good for those whose life doesn't line up with Cosmic, or want to put up with the 'you die' perfection of TA (or put up with the cosmic crowd at all). Having the separate systems is good catering to multiple crowds, time zones, alting. It actually be best if both gears were available in both systems. (But that won't happen, cause you could by pass GCR time gate with alts and account bound tokens )

For PTS system to 'work' for the non cosmic crowd (people without GCR) and dual system you'd have to bend on your allowance on no GCR for rampages (or rather the tokens) for this system to be useful. This probably means a change to new tokens since it seems you want GCR to be limited in amount per character, and then that breaks the alt friendliness of rampages.

SHORT: Rampages and Cosmic gear styles just don't mesh, and new dev's rules seem to not want them to. So why bother trying, just put it back

Next the valuation of tokens is off / contradicts itself

Current: Justice = 8 tokens vs LIVE: Justice = 450/225 GCR/SCR and 4 tokens

That valuates 4 tokens =112/56 G/S or 27/14 each

Comparing PTS Justice vs Distinguished, it is 450/225 4 tokens vs 500/250

That valuates 4 tokens = 50/25 or 12/6 each

That over a 2x discrepancy to fix in the value of the rampage token, its rarity should be recognized. (No I'm not going to recognize salvage as having value). GCR/SCR cost needs to be further reduced. And again, past efforts at gaining tokens need some recognition (i.e. ability to trade token for GCR, or leave old system in place)

The change seems poorly thought out, has a terrible conversion factor, and continues on the track of the game being more and more player unfriendly and towards a single minded thought of 'what is good'

gentlegiantvexx · August 2016

Opinion to Suggestion here.

I absolutely love the fact that Justice will not be RNG Heavy anymore and folks can see their progress much better with confidence to continue. But the prices and the way this is going about, might not be the best of ways.
Perhaps allow each rampage token to cost 200 SCR/100 GCR to definitely compensate the price be a tad bit higher but still a fair amount in comparison to the total of Distinguished primaries.That and we already can get ~61 GCR per day. Get lucky enough to find a token, that's 200 SCR+100 GCR Saved on the player's part, and we all know how rare getting tokens can be!

chaelk · August 2016

so , I'll ask again ,Is the drop rate of the rampage tokens going to change or will it continue on, with those favoured by the RNG gods getting them and those hated by them , getting nothing?
saying you only need four tokens now, isn't much help, when you don't get ANY.

xrazamax · August 2016

I don't see any reason the new prices would cause an increase in token drops since you need less. Currently, you need 2 of each for every piece. Now you need only half of that - AND you use two Superdense diamonds which come from Gravitar. That is by far the easiest and most pug friendly Rampage. There is absolutely no reason they would increase token drop rate.

Pricing Suggestion:

What I believe should happen instead is the token be made available for purchase using GCR and SCR prices. Then the tokens be price appropriately (the Lemurian and SC costing much more than the Gravitar token for example). By doing this, it will ensure people still play the rampages - because with a full set only requiring 2 Destrium and only 2 Scales now, people are going to run those two MUCH less.
Next, all rampages should drop guaranteed SCR and a chance of GCR** that drop at diminishing rates. The rates should also be appropriate depending on the rampage, again with SC and Lemurian rewarding more than F&I and Gravitar.
Finally, reduce the cost of Justice Gear's GCR and SCR requirement (perhaps by 25-35%) and make the token cost requirement only slightly reduced. Perhaps require Superdense 2 Destrium 2 Scale 2 for offense, Super dense 2 Destrium and Hypercooled 2 for Defense, and Superdense 2 Scales 2 and Hypercooled 2 for Utility.

**To keep other forms of earning GCR relevant

Let me also say this though: I think that the pricing is gonna be really wacky if the difficulty of the rampages is adjusted to be more inline with other end game content.

phasestar · August 2016

So I started playing again not long after Justice Gear was first made harder to get. Since then I've been doing Rampages as time allows and in over a year (given my available play time, which has been enough to get two characters up to 40 and another to 35), was just now getting close to getting my first piece of Justice Gear. And now this... argh. Please put me down as against this change.

phasestar · August 2016

Perhaps the new warzone will give enough SCR and GCR to make this seem less of a HUGE cost increase, but right now it looks like a big deal from where I'm sitting.

phasestar · August 2016

Thought about this a bit more - I am of course disappointed that just as I'm about to get a piece of this gear, the goal post is changed again.

Nevertheless, some non-emotional feedback:

1. In a vacuum, I like the idea of it being tied to something other than Drifter salvage, so that you don't have to pay real money to get it in theory.

2. I like the change to 2 diamonds + 2 of any

3. For those of us that already accumulated the drifter salvage and were almost there on the token, it would be good if there were some kind of Drifter -> SCR/GCR conversion, even if it is only temporary and for the purpose of Justice Gear as it could be abused - or perhaps allow the rampage tokens to also be converted to SCR/GCR and vice versa? Or perhaps allow Rampages as suggested to provide more SCR/GCR?

4. It seems like a LOT of SCR/GCR per piece, but this is without having tried the new warzone. Still, this seems like a lot, especially for GCR.

Personally I consider having the Cosmics be the the intended way of grinding these as a form of punishment. I just don't enjoy the Cosmic fights as much as the other content.

xrazamax · August 2016

phasestar said:
So I started playing again not long after Justice Gear was first made harder to get. Since then I've been doing Rampages as time allows and in over a year (given my available play time, which has been enough to get two characters up to 40 and another to 35), was just now getting close to getting my first piece of Justice Gear. And now this... argh. Please put me down as against this change.

Justice gear has never been made "harder" to get. Since its release the requirements have not changed.

phasestar · August 2016

You're right, I was thinking about Heroic and got mixed up.

thelastsonofzod · August 2016

Rampage tokens need to be addressed. Two years on, and I have 1. Single. Token.

Even setting aside that this one token is the result of a concentrated week's effort...that is pathetic.

No other grind in this game outside of lockboxes is this terrible, and at least lockboxes just cost money, not time and annoying levels of effort. RNG is not a viable plan. It never will be. Here are my counterproposals

1.) Give rampages a daily mission. Running a set number of completions nets a single token. Make it 5, 10. 20 runs, I don't care. Just so long as there is a break even point. If your math says I should randomly get a token after 301 runs, just give me the Fricking token after that many tries. I think that would be more than fair

Or

2.) Sell tokens from the GCR Vendor. Make them cost an equitable amount. Other people in this thread can crunch the numbers better than I. I would suggest making tokens bought in such a way BoP as a way of maintaining their value.

Other than that, I'm okay with GCR/SCR costs for Justice gear. As long as I know the gear will actually be obtainable now.

reaperwithnoname · August 2016

The result of these changes will be the abandonment of LI and SC by the playerbase. If you want to fix those two rampages, but don't have the resources to make them more fun, you can simply shorten them by removing some of the mobs.

Furthermore, requiring gcr is a serious problem, because it effectively forces people to play mid-tier content and high-end content for justice gear, when the only purpose of the mid-end content is justice gear. In other words, players who want the gear they feel they need for high-end content will be pushed into high-end content before they're ready. They're still struggling to adjust to Gravitar, and they will now also be expected to deal with Cosmics or TA at the same time. This is a bad thing, because instead of enticing people to improve, it will lead to frustration and rage-quitting. There needs to be a clearly defined improvement path, of low-end content, to mid-tier content, to high-end content. These changes will muddle it far too much.

The scr requirement is the only good part of the idea, as it encourages people to play a variety of content (as you can get scr from anything these days).

If the developers are dead-set on making justice require gcr, a suitable compromise might be to make one of the justice slots require it (for example's sake, let's say the utility slot, though it doesn't actually matter which one). Since players are likely to get justice gear pieces one at a time, they would inevitably get the cheaper offense and defense slots first (and in the process adjust to mid-tier content), and then hopefully by the time they go for the more expensive final piece, they would be ready for high-end stuff.

bringmeaslab · August 2016

The way that I would have liked to have seen this implemented would be for the overall pricing on JG to remain the same but the tokens be purchasable for GCR. That leaves a non-epic progression path for players that don't enjoy that content, and it lets the players that do earn the "good" primary gear with TA and cosmics.

aesica · August 2016

magpieuk2014 said:
Rampages are level 35+ content. So pitch them that way; a pre-end game, giving part-tokens through repeated play, not 100% RNG (Fragments, so that x successful plays = x fragments = 1 token). Remove the need for super-specialist, high-end builds (frost tanks) in order for there to be any chance of success. Add a new set of pre-end game gear as the first reward for Rampage tokens - Heroic Gear, even, or similar (maybe some moddable Heroic secondaries), but keep them as a requirement for the uber high end gear (x Rampage Token (of any kind) + y GCR = Justice Gear). Then you're giving the player base a choice of what they play to get what they want.

Actually, I think it'd be best if they were set to be level 40 content in a way that could solve a few problems people have with the current endgame progression path. Add a daily to complete a Rampage with a decent SCR reward. Here's why I'm pretty sure this would be appreciated by everyone:

1) The GCR crowd has been complaining about the SCR component of literally everything in the GCR store, so this would help ease that burden for them by giving them a good daily allowance.

2) The casual crowd (myself included) would once again be able to view Heroic gear as something worth getting. Currently, I won't spend SCR on what's effectively scrub-tier gear because it's not worth the amount of effort required and the currency it demands is also required for "the good stuff." It's more practical to buy auction-house piecemeal gear (merc + random 2-slot blues/greens + misc secondary pieces) to just wing it. With Heroic gear more accessible and having a place in the progression chain once again, this means more people who might feel confident doing the cosmic/etc crap that currently, only a few people seem interested in.

jaazaniah1 · August 2016

soulforger said:
Seems some people forget that cosmics give out 10 SCR per defeat. 3 times per day.

The amount of time to get the 3 dailies done in a day varies wildly. A lot depends if you can catch the main hunt which happens between 4:00-7:00 EST. If you miss that time your chance to get the daily done that day drops like a rock. Also, sometimes the hunts take a very long time. Seen it take over a several hours to get all 3 done, when they are completed at all. Other times a good team can knock all 3 done in an hour. I've seen people talking about how thy haven't completed the daily in a week.

jaazaniah1 · August 2016

A number of people have given up on doing Rampages to get JG because they feel that they are unlucky and tokens never drop for them. For those folks JG might not as well exist. That should given you an idea of how hard some people find the JG system to be right now.

That, however, has not been my experience. Spending the same amount of time on Ramapges nets me JG at about the same rate as getting DG once the comsic battle actually begins. A major problem with cosmic hunts is the sheer amount of dull, boring time spent waiting for people to show up and for the new people to catch on to what needs to be done. While waiting for some cosmics to get under way I've done and entire SC or LI and 2-3 Gravitars. F&I can't be pugged, so that's another fish.

Of course, JG is superior in one way since the token currency can go into a common fund. This, of course, make grinding for it infinitely less dull since you can swap to a different character when using one starts to get boring. Grinding for a full set of Distinguished primaries for one toon was far and away the most mind-numbingly tedious task I've ever done in CO. The character that did that is now on a vacation.

Personally, I very much like having a completely separate system for acquiring end game gear that doesn't involve gcr. Does all end game gear have to involve gcr? I think not.

Note too that Cryptic actually makes money on JG since people who want it have to spend real money on it by acquiring drifter salvage, either by buying it themselves, or by trading with those who have it. Why cut off a source of income for Cryptic?.

draogn · August 2016

This change makes me want to queue for rampages even less then I do now. The game has become grindy enough.

crypticbuxom · August 2016

Rampages should be all you need to do to acquire Justice Gear. Unless Rampages are to be outfitted with their own Warzones to acquire GCR at a regular rate, then just don't follow through with these changes.

chaelk · August 2016

BTW, I checked the gear in the store.
it's NOT 2 diamonds + any 2.
off/def/utility one requires scales, one requires bearings, one requires the f&I one.

Gravitar the rampage I have done the most of, over 50 of.. score over 3 accts: 1 diamond a. so yes, I can continue to forget about Justice gear. Since I;'m also in the opposite timezone, cosmics are weekend only.

Congratulations to the people on the good end of the bell curve, I'm on the other end.

jaazaniah1 · August 2016

Hmm, in many ways this sounds like combining the worst of 2 worlds.
1. The gcr/scr system that is bind to character, meaning long boring slogs on one character.
2. The RNG of current Rampage system that some people have already given up on.
Is combining these two systems really going to encourage players to do them?

Really hoping this doesn't go live before I get the last few tokens I need for my last fun to acquire JG.

magpieuk2014 · August 2016

Aesica - I honestly think that Rampages should be scaled to replace Grab Alerts for level 35+ characters. Daily mission, complete x3 Rampages, get yer XP, some tokens for gear, learn about high-end boss confrontations and their mechanics, finalise your build to suit. Don't grind people into the dirt, encourage them. Wouldn't take much dev time to do, helps the player base skill up, and if people could use those tokens gradually earned over 5 levels, for JG, then they'd be more likely to go after TA, Cosmics, etc after lvl 40.

aesica · August 2016

magpieuk2014 said:
Aesica - I honestly think that Rampages should be scaled to replace Grab Alerts for level 35+ characters. Daily mission, complete x3 Rampages, get yer XP, some tokens for gear, learn about high-end boss confrontations and their mechanics, finalise your build to suit. Don't grind people into the dirt, encourage them. Wouldn't take much dev time to do, helps the player base skill up, and if people could use those tokens gradually earned over 5 levels, for JG, then they'd be more likely to go after TA, Cosmics, etc after lvl 40.

I don't know how I feel about Rampages replacing Grab alerts, but adding a daily quest to encourage 35+ players to do Rampages would be good in addition to the standard Grab/Smash/Burst daily rotation. Make no mistake, I'm not at all part of the MAKE EVERYTHING COSMIC-HARD crowd, so pretty much forget what I said about making Rampages 40 only. However, I do think the proposed daily quest for Rampages shouldn't award GCR until 40. Some early SCR would be fine, though.

sigmaseven0 · August 2016

magpieuk2014 said:
Aesica - I honestly think that Rampages should be scaled to replace Grab Alerts for level 35+ characters. Daily mission, complete x3 Rampages, get yer XP, some tokens for gear, learn about high-end boss confrontations and their mechanics, finalise your build to suit. Don't grind people into the dirt, encourage them. Wouldn't take much dev time to do, helps the player base skill up, and if people could use those tokens gradually earned over 5 levels, for JG, then they'd be more likely to go after TA, Cosmics, etc after lvl 40.

I think this is an interesting idea.

sinistro1978 · August 2016

Tokens need to be done away with. Rampages should drop both GCR and SCR, but the grind should be greater than TA/Cosmics. This way casual players can still obtain the best gear, but it comes at a cost. This is really the only way to cater to both casual/elite players, while lowering the odds of all of us getting burned out on minimal content and options. Whatever you do in the end, please be realistic with the costs. Too much grind is never good for anyone. It discourages a lot of us from creating alts, which could be bad for business in the long run.

xacchaeus · August 2016

give two ways to purchase #1 old way with drifter salvage and tokens or #2 gcr/scr at the same cost as distinguished

riverocean · August 2016

The easiest gear to get for alts is Merc gear from the questionite store. If you're a subscriber your 500G a month should allow to buy that with ease. Blue gear in the Auction House has become rare/increased in price. Mostly because folks figured out it was still useful. Not as great as Legions or Justice -- but near enough to Heroics to get the job done.

I have one JG outfitted toon and I doubt I'll ever gear up another. But it would be that way in almost any MMO -- end game gear is usually a grind. The difference with CO is that JG is not REQUIRED. There are no gear checks in this game and the vast majority of it can done without the best gear in town. As long as that remains true, I consider us lucky. Folks, this could be much, much worse.

I've run a few alts through the new content and zone. They are doable with Merc gear. Sure JG would be better, it should be it's the best gear in the game. But no matter how we feel about it - Justice Gear is expensive end game gear. I'd love a price reduction -- who wouldn't?

But I don't see it happening.

gemini2099 · August 2016

Most of the complaining for justice gear would go away if heroic gear prices were brought down IMO. It doesn't solve all the issues with justice gear but it is smart first step to do.

phasestar · August 2016

If SCR/GCR are now the new grind for Justice gear, the idea of a mission that awards a token for completing X of a particular rampage makes a lot of sense. Take the completely random token drops and thus make them a more predictable reward for effort and time spent, similar to how SCR/GCR are. I still think the SCR/GCR prices are too high though unless the new Warzone awards them in large quantities.

spinnytop · August 2016

Suggestion: Make it cost 1 of each token instead of 2.

jaazaniah1 · August 2016

Just wondering, if this change kicks in, will we be given some real advance notice? I hope it's not this week. I still need 1 SC token for what might be my last set, under the current alt-friendly regime, for a very long time.

lovehammer1 · August 2016

Well since drifter will no longer be needed for the Justice gear...
How about a compromise of sorts for those of us who spent money to help get said gear?

Something. Anything, but nothing for drifter salvage. (regarding Justice Gear)
Fair, right?

FC.31.20160729.8 - Justice Gear Price Changes Feedback

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