Someone said that the characters you play in Secret World are not superheroes. Then a bunch of people said they are. Every game that I've played that you play as a superhero, I would consider a superhero game. How you would not make that connection is just a bit weird. You're basically saying "This game is about superheroes, but it's not a superhero game." Does that make any sense to you? You just can't have both things.
There are plenty of games where your character is essentially a superhero, but it isn't a game in the superhero genre. For instance, in many fantasy MMOs, you have a super-strong character who can shoot energy beams, similar to many superheroes. Still, the tropes and trapping don't match a supers setting.
Like I said, transplanting superheroes into other settings and story types (or games) doesn't mean you still have a superhero story. You might, but you might not.
When I talk to people about Champions, and I say, "It is a cool superhero game where you make your own hero and costume, fight villains, and save people," they quickly develop a good picture of the game, because of tropes.
In describing TSW, I would reference both the urban fantasy and ancient conspiracy parts of the game, and that would give a prospective player a good idea of the sort of game they would be getting into. Superheroes would not.
There are plenty of games where your character is essentially a superhero, but it isn't a game in the superhero genre. For instance, in many fantasy MMOs, you have a super-strong character who can shoot energy beams, similar to many superheroes. Still, the tropes and trapping don't match a supers setting.
Personally, that doesn't work for me. I wouldn't call Tim the Enchanter a superhero, even though he can do exactly the same thing as some superheroes. I wouldn't say Monty Python and the Holy Grail is a movie about superheroes but it's not a superhero movie. I honestly don't care who can do what and how similar it is to superheroes. Just because you can do something no other human can do doesn't make you a superhero.
Usain Bolt can run faster than anyone else. Superhero?
There are plenty of games where your character is essentially a superhero, but it isn't a game in the superhero genre. For instance, in many fantasy MMOs, you have a super-strong character who can shoot energy beams, similar to many superheroes. Still, the tropes and trapping don't match a supers setting.
Like I said, transplanting superheroes into other settings and story types (or games) doesn't mean you still have a superhero story. You might, but you might not.
True, and it works conversely just as well. Gandalf might not be a superhero, but put him in Millennium City fighting supervillains and what's different between him and Witchcraft?
True, and it works conversely just as well. Gandalf might not be a superhero, but put him in Millennium City fighting supervillains and what's different between him and Witchcraft?
I'm constantly amused by some of the daft things people say about The Secret World, especially when it comes to saying they believe the game's marketing department.
For a start it is not "Secret". There is "masquerade" there, just as the costumes and character differentiation are strictly limited by a limited development budget, so are their urban environments.
You can wander around the small, re-imagined fragment of London TSW has managed to knock-up with Wolverine's claws out and the Punisher's magic assault rifle on your back and no-one molests you for breaking any kind of secrecy. Why? Because they are used to superheroes there.
Admitted these superheroes all share the same origin, each gain their superpowers from a shared limited set of superhero focus weapons and are doomed to end up just like each other, able to gain all the available superpowers - just like a crowd of Super Skulls in civvies.
The game acknowledges the setting, even featuring John Constantine in the tutorial - a superhero who has his own Heroclix figure and leads his own superhero team Justice League Dark!
However admittedly John Constantine does not dress like Batman, which is supposed to be very important to some people.
But the bottom line is that TSW is boring rather than secret and I would have to be paid to play that extremely bland game.
Thank goodness that the buy-to-play model will probably soon collapse, just as their subscription model did.
:rolleyes:
I guess you're right, this guy is clearly a superhero:
Guessing you didn't actually read the whole post I made given that I said in it TWICE that TSW is not a superhero game. In fact, what you're trying to tell me right here is something I've already said.
Actually, I did read it all.
And no, what it was was backpedaling, as pointed out by Biff, someone said TSW wasn't "superheroes" and everyone harped on him that TSW was.
I could go back and find all the posts if you want.
Oh, and Proot's posts actively counteract your side's backpedaling claims.
And to that I say so what? Goku's origins were right at the very beginning of the series. Can't really say that him making it up as he goes along excuses it when the basis for the comparison between him and Superman is right in the very beginning
No it's not. It starts out with him as a child with a monkey tail living alone in the wild after his grandfather had died years before. Then Bulma shows up on her search for the Dragonballs and they go off on wacky adventures together.
Nowhere are there any mention of any Saiyans or a Planet Vegeta or anything like that because Mr. Toriyama hadn't come up with them yet.
Probably. Don't really feel like going back and looking but, if it was you, I think you mentioned Gandalf in that post and while my knowledge of LoTR is a bit lacking in comparison to others, it could be argued that he is the superhero of Middle Earth. I don't think he is a superhero but, there are commonalities that would allow for that arguement.
Gandalf really isn't. While he does have magical powers, he doesn't take center stage and is mostly guiding the real heroes to where they need to go.
I think it would depend on what those super heroes in space are doing as well as what the people around them are like as well. Take Superma for example. On Earth, he's a superhero. If his homeworld was still around and he was there he'd just be another Kryptonian. This is why I say that it's a combination of the setting and the character that decides whether or not someone is a superhero.
I was mostly referring to groups like the Legion of Superheroes, Guardians of the Galaxy or the New Gods.
Yeah, I suppose that the "/trollface" clause of my post renders everthing I said about the fact that only one of the characters in that picture you included in that post barely resembles that generic "superhero" in tights guy you posted in this one.
It does.
But they're Mavel characters, that alone makes them valid "superheroes" despite all but one of them fitting in other genres.
Too bad for you that they also embody all the other well-known superhero tropes such as regular rogues galleries, secret identities (although Stark is frustratingly like a revolving door with this one--that and his armor actually resembled spandex for the loooongest time, how did he bend his legs?), underlying character themes, etc.
Everything from that post Pion made that defined the superhero trope.
although Stark is frustratingly like a revolving door with this one--that and his armor actually resembled spandex for the loooongest time, how did he bend his legs?
In his first appearance, his armor was jointed, as it was just made out of iron.
In his second appearance, he updated his suit to be gold so that the general public could tell who's the good guy when he's fighting someone (gotta love the 60s!), but that suit wasn't made of just iron. It was made of several tiny parts that hooked up together. Stark carried the Iron Man suit in a suitcase - it could be folded up like regular clothes, but when the suit was powered up, it became rigid. I'm guessing that he could bend his knees by the suit just adjusting its shape to accommodate movement.
'Wen considered the nature of time and understood that the universe is, instant by instant, recreated anew. Therefore, he understood, there is in truth no past, only a memory of the past. Blink your eyes, and the world you see next did not exist when you closed them. Therefore, he said, the only appropriate state of the mind is surprise. The only appropriate state of the heart is joy. The sky you see now, you have never seen before. The perfect moment is now. Be glad of it.' Terry Pratchet The Thief Of Time
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
And no, what it was was backpedaling, as pointed out by Biff, someone said TSW wasn't "superheroes" and everyone harped on him that TSW was.
No. It ws a lack of comprehension on your part or you remembered something another person said and for some reason thought it was said by me. Biff was referring to comments from other people going by what was quoted. Surely you're not going to say I'm accountable for the comments of other people, are you?
Oh, and Proot's posts actively counteract your side's backpedaling claims.
Since when am I on a side? I already asked you to try to explain which side this is you seem to think I'm on, in the post you last quoted actually and you don't seem to be willing to do that.
No. It ws a lack of comprehension on your part or you remembered something another person said and for some reason thought it was said by me. Biff was referring to comments from other people going by what was quoted. Surely you're not going to say I'm accountable for the comments of other people, are you?
And where did I name you specifically? I said "everyone."
You launched yourself into this debate when you said in that post I replied to earlier that TSW characters could be considered superheroes. Up to that point you weren't in it. And then in the same post you carried the growing backpedaling mantra that claims "but we're not claiming it's a superhero game." This is bizarrely illogical.
If the characters are superheroes, then shouldn't the game logically be a superhero game?
Alright. I'll take that challenge. Please go through this thread and find where I said TSW is a superhero game.
That wasn't the challenge. The challenge was to go back and find all the posts where someone said TSW wasn't "supers", meaning superheroes, and the following insistence that they were and post them.
Well, they do make it pretty clear that you *are* superhuman in-game, (just more on the level of a Wolverine or Blade, instead of Superman or Green Lantern). One major point they drill into you is that, basically, you can't die permanently.
TSW characters are super like super-spies, or magical spies. Characters are super-human, but not superheroic.
There are no caped crusaders flying to the rescue, so to speak.
CO and DCUO remain the only supers MMORPGs in town. And when Marvel launches. . . well, it's just Diablo, except that you can have a team of 5 Deadpools.
Technically, it is super. (Incoming Biff in 5... 4... 3...) Just supers with the same origins, no flashy outfits, and everyone's beholden to the same global conspiracy. If TSW is a comic book, its Preacher but you're stuck working for The Grail.
My favorite is still Black "I'm Totally. Not Reading. This From. A Script" Diamond.
They're "super" sure, but it's far far from being a super-hero game. Sure, there are super-heros that are like that, but that's a subset of them, because "super-heroes" tend to incorporate most genres more or less, but the opposite is not true. It all depends on your perspective, I suppose.
Since some people seem to think that the player characters in The Secret World are not supers, what exactly is their definition of a superhero if it isn't someone with superpowers doing heroic acts?
A supporting cast (Debatable, so let's go with Yes)
A rogues gallery (No)
Independant wealth or employment that allows minimum supervision (No)
A headquarters or base of operations (Yes)
A backstory (No)
There is a spectrum of "superhero," but in TSW that's a whole lot more no than yes.
And from there we enter a debate with the most bizarre stretching of logic and splitting of hairs that I have ever seen.
Since when am I on a side? I already asked you to try to explain which side this is you seem to think I'm on, in the post you last quoted actually and you don't seem to be willing to do that.
When I said, "TSW isn't supers", I meant that it isn't a superhero genre game. I apologized a couple posts ago for the confusion.
As I said, you have characters with superhero powers, but the game doesn't fit most common tropes to comic book super hero stories ("supers"). TSW does fit into the categories of ancient conspiracies and urban fantasy, and the game is billed as such.
From TSW's own web site:
"In a world where every conspiracy theory, every myth, fable and urban legend is true, three ancient societies pull the strings and decide our fate. Forced into alliance by circumstance, they stand united against the rising darkness, but remain divided in pursuit of power."
"Imagine a world where vampires hunt for mortal blood in London nightclubs, where werewolves hide in the New York subways, and where demons lurk in the shadows of Seoul. Imagine no more. Step into the secret world."
"With the whole world, all its history, all its legends and all its myths to choose from, the developers of The Secret World are creating a story unlike anything you have ever seen before in a massively multiplayer online game. The Secret World features a unique, story-driven gameplay experience that explores the myths, legends and conspiracy theories of the real world."
They are describing an urban fantasy, ancient conspiracy setting. There's nothing about superheroes defeating villains, saving people from burning buildings, capes and masks, or other common superhero tropes.
Being a superhero game or story is about more than having characters with super powers. Super Mario Bros isn't a plumbing game, even though the main character is a plumber. Characters in a typical fantasy MMO have super powers, but they aren't superhero games.
That wasn't the challenge. The challenge was to go back and find all the posts where someone said TSW wasn't "supers", meaning superheroes, and the following insistence that they were and post them.
So here they are.
Huh... Maybe I'm crazy but, it looks like not a single one of the things you've quoted was actually said by me yet, you still insist that I'm saying things that I'm apparently not considering you said you found all the posts making that claim and none were from me so, I'm just gonna chalk this up to a lack of comprehension.
I'll even be nice and throw you a bone to explain what I said even though you'll just say it's more backpedaling. I was not harping on Biff about anything. I was commenting on how ridiculous many of the people in this thread were when trying to say what does and does not decide whether or not someone is a superhero. Take a look at what some people said decide what makes someone a superhero. If you combine it all, almost no major comic book characters are superheroes according to the people in this thread. To me, that's kinda dumb. It's also narrow minded.
The closest I came to saying whether or not the characters in TSW are superheroes was in that same post and unless you've played it, you wouldn't even be capable of understanding the context of it. I quote a NPC in that game that says, "I knew you'd show up. First zombies. Then government agents. Now superheroes." The person that says that is a kid that's been hiding out by himself in a town that's been overrun with monsters. At that point, there isn't any secret agent stuff or hidden mysteries and you're not hiding what you're capable of. It's a kid witnessing someone with extraordinary powers beating the tar out of monsters that have layed waste to his home. So here's a new challenge for you. Try to explain why someone in a situation like that can't be called a superhero.
Secret Wars Saga. Spider-Man single-handedly dusts the entire X-men team at one time including Wolverine. Professor X comments that they are fortunate he was not trying to injure them.
Edit: Correction. Wolverine says that himself.
That was not the first time that Spidey faced the X-men alone http://marvel.wikia.com/X-Men_Vol_1_35
And in the very first issue of Amazing Spiderman he faced the FF (fantastic four not freeforms )
and last but not least
I've been playing TSW since closed beta; I ordered a lifetime sub on the day they were available - well before even playing the game. I've played through the story and have done the vast majority of missions. I've seen all the cut-scenes and read all the lore. I think I have a pretty solid grasp on both the game world and the mechanics.
As to whether the player characters are superheroes, well: Several NPCs in TSW refer to the player characters as "superheroes" (one that most people even just giving the game a try will have met is Danny Dufresne, they boy at the skate park in Kingsmouth).
Are the characters superheroes? No, I can't say they are, because they're not in a superhero setting; they're in a rather unique modern-day horror/mystery setting, with myths and conspiracies way more prevalent than super-powered villains.
Without spoiling too much, you're a Joe or Jane Doe that gets "blessed" by Gaia, given magical (or super if you like) powers far beyond any mere mortal, and then snatched up by a secret society that's been snatching up Gaia's creations for millennia.
So on one hand you want to help save Gaia, and on the other you want to help your secret society accomplish its goals (world domination, eradication of evil, or just plain old chaos). Finally, of course, you might have your own goals. All this is excellently told in cut-scenes, dialogue, and fluff texts.
And as an aside, you aren't immortal. They let you know this in no uncertain terms; you're *very* hard to kill, but it can be done.
As for the ability system and the notion of "wasted" points, sure, when you're just starting out you might think that it's a waste taking abilities you don't see a use for right at the moment, but later on you'll find that the abilities you thought were useless in fact are quite useful. You most likely won't be using just a single build throughout the game; different fights go much easier or harder depending on how you tweak your build. As an example, an affliction-heavy build won't be much use on mobs that are immune to affliction (or even increase their damage if afflicted).
TSW is a hard game in some ways; you have to think about what you're about to do, and in many cases (at least after leaving Solomon Islands) you have to adjust your build to the fight you're about to get yourself into. There's no clear "best build" or a single "best way" to do things, but several.
It's not like many MMOs out there; it can be a bit hard to get into if you think it's going to be just another MMO, or if you think it's a zombie-shooter. It's extremely rewarding if you take your time to listen to the NPCs, read the lore as you find it, and read the mission briefings/debriefings. The writing is second to none.
The character customization is good, but not as good as CO's; we only a month ago got the ability to change our character's height (and only by +-10%); that said, I almost never see two people that look alike, so there clearly is a lot of options.
Finally, then, development. Up until the recent financial troubles and restructuring at Funcom, they put out a content patch a month, with new missions, new weapons, bug fixes and balance fixes. If I understand things correctly now that they've moved to a Buy-to-Play model, these won't be guaranteed to come one every month any more, but instead will be "regular", and will cost money (unless you're as subscriber, when you can buy them with your monthly stipend).
If you haven't, give it a try. It's a fantastic game in my opinion, with more freedom than most MMOs, and writing that's better than anyone else's.
Are the characters superheroes? No, I can't say they are, because they're not in a superhero setting; they're in a rather unique modern-day horror/mystery setting, with myths and conspiracies way more prevalent than super-powered villains.
Without spoiling too much, you're a Joe or Jane Doe that gets "blessed" by Gaia, given magical (or super if you like) powers far beyond any mere mortal
Change Gaia to Shazam.
I'm not quite there with the whole "they're not a superhero because of the setting" thing or "they're not a superhero because of how they are dressed" thing. I'm a Black, martial arts expert who is a father. Whether I'm in a dojo or behind a desk pushing a pencil I still possess these abilities and this knowledge. Whether I'm wearing a gi or wearing a suit I still have more ways to break an arm and carve someone into a disfigured flesh sculpture with my karambit than Martha Stewart knows recipes. If I go into the bright of daylight or into a dark room my skin is the same color and whether I'm at a school function or at a bar for happy hour I'm still a father. What I am, what I am classified as and what I can do don't change based on my clothes, what city I am in, who is around me or what side of the street I'm on.
The clothes and the setting may make part of the genre but they don't make the man/woman/character.
Just not getting all the hair splitting and fairly convoluted explanations for why characters that would clearly be superheroes in any marvel/DC/image story being called something else (despite being referred to as such in their own game) solely based on how they dress or their surroundings. In no other area that I can think of would this even remotely fly.
The President is only the President in the setting of the White House...
A Police Officer is only an Officer when in uniform...
A CEO is only a CEO when in his or her suit and in the setting of a board meeting...
A Fire Fighter is only a hero when in uniform, in the setting of a blazing building...
A Marine is only a Marine while enlisted...
A Doctor is only a Doctor when in the setting of a hospital and equipped with a lab coat and stethoscope...
A Game Programmer is only a Programmer while in the setting of a desk while actively coding...
A Fish is only a Fish in the setting of an ocean...
I think the main thing that makes them not-superheroes for me is that they've all got the same source of their powers; a magic bee flew into their mouth one night as they were sleeping.
Also, the fact that it's all magic; no radioactive insects, or aliens from red sun planets, no high-tech, no genetic experimentation, no cosmic radiation (or gamma radiation for that matter), no super-soldier serum, no accidents while in a research lab.
Every single one has the same background story; average Joe gets chosen by Gaia to fight for her, gets magical powers, fights evil and other secret societies.
And it's not like we're unique either; there's lots of the bee-people out there. The Templar training ground officer even remarks "You're not the only one, you're not the Chosen One, you're part of an army; our army".
Be that as it may, clearly the characters are super-powered. Whether they're also super-HEROes, is obviously up for debate
At the very least, the game is not a classic super-hero game.
The clothes and the setting may make part of the genre but they don't make the man/woman/character.
Just not getting all the hair splitting and fairly convoluted explanations for why characters that would clearly be superheroes in any marvel/DC/image story being called something else (despite being referred to as such in their own game) solely based on how they dress or their surroundings. In no other area that I can think of would this even remotely fly.
The President is only the President in the setting of the White House...
A Police Officer is only an Officer when in uniform...
A CEO is only a CEO when in his or her suit and in the setting of a board meeting...
A Fire Fighter is only a hero when in uniform, in the setting of a blazing building...
A Marine is only a Marine while enlisted...
A Doctor is only a Doctor when in the setting of a hospital and equipped with a lab coat and stethoscope...
A Game Programmer is only a Programmer while in the setting of a desk while actively coding...
A Fish is only a Fish in the setting of an ocean...
A marine that is a character in a soap opera is in a soap opera, not a war-story. In fact, one could have a war story without any characters being explicitly part of a military unit.
Having a certain type of character doesn't make the story conform to a genre.
Genre is determined by a set of agreed-upon and understood conventions, called tropes.
A marine that is a character in a soap opera is in a soap opera, not a war-story. In fact, one could have a war story without any characters being explicitly part of a military unit.
Having a certain type of character doesn't make the story conform to a genre.
Genre is determined by a set of agreed-upon and understood conventions, called tropes.
True, which is why I was talking about the Marine being a Marine regardless of the story.
Is TSW a game in the superhero genre? Debatable (I lean towards no). Are the characters superheroes? Of course they are. Many of them are nigh identical in powers and origin story to characters found in Marvel, DC, Image, Dynamite, etc. comics that are considered superheroes.
I'm not quite there with the whole "they're not a superhero because of the setting" thing or "they're not a superhero because of how they are dressed" thing. I'm a Black, martial arts expert who is a father. Whether I'm in a dojo or behind a desk pushing a pencil I still possess these abilities and this knowledge. Whether I'm wearing a gi or wearing a suit I still have more ways to break an arm and carve someone into a disfigured flesh sculpture with my karambit than Martha Stewart knows recipes. If I go into the bright of daylight or into a dark room my skin is the same color and whether I'm at a school function or at a bar for happy hour I'm still a father. What I am, what I am classified as and what I can do don't change based on my clothes, what city I am in, who is around me or what side of the street I'm on.
The clothes and the setting may make part of the genre but they don't make the man/woman/character.
Just not getting all the hair splitting and fairly convoluted explanations for why characters that would clearly be superheroes in any marvel/DC/image story being called something else (despite being referred to as such in their own game) solely based on how they dress or their surroundings. In no other area that I can think of would this even remotely fly.
The President is only the President in the setting of the White House...
A Police Officer is only an Officer when in uniform...
A CEO is only a CEO when in his or her suit and in the setting of a board meeting...
A Fire Fighter is only a hero when in uniform, in the setting of a blazing building...
A Marine is only a Marine while enlisted...
A Doctor is only a Doctor when in the setting of a hospital and equipped with a lab coat and stethoscope...
A Game Programmer is only a Programmer while in the setting of a desk while actively coding...
A Fish is only a Fish in the setting of an ocean...
/thread er well...the super hero or not discussion anyway lol
I like a lot of the gameplay elements of TSW, btw.
I wish that Champions had more missions involving puzzles and convo trees and such. Not every mission has to be "Defeat X" or "Collect X". Sure, Champs has a few missions with different sorts of goals, but they are few and far between.
I wonder if the Foundry allows creation of missions with some really different objectives.
True, which is why I was talking about the Marine being a Marine regardless of the story.
Is TSW a game in the superhero genre? Debatable (I lean towards no). Are the characters superheroes? Of course they are. Many of them are nigh identical in powers and origin story to characters found in Marvel, DC, Image, Dynamite, etc. comics that are considered superheroes.
I like a lot of the gameplay elements of TSW, btw.
I wish that Champions had more missions involving puzzles and convo trees and such. Not every mission has to be "Defeat X" or "Collect X". Sure, Champs has a few missions with different sorts of goals, but they are few and far between.
I wonder if the Foundry allows creation of missions with some really different objectives.
/Signed
There is more to RPG missions than just tank and spank, then collect the drops. MMOs have done a horrible job of consistently trying to dumb down RPG mission objecttives for YEARS and CO is for the most part further behind even than even other MMOs.
I wish more MMOs were more like TSW in this respect and hope that the Foundry (on the unlikely event that it will finally come to this game in our lifetimes :rolleyes:) will provide tools for creating more elaborate missions.
every game hero is technically a superhero since everyone has powers beyond the uman range. Just look at the jumps in Quake or Tomb Raider :biggrin: and how many bulleets need the baddies to down Lara Croft.
On the other hand there are comics book chars that have not superpowers like the Batman and are considered supheroes while others that have them like Mr Spock and Tarzan are not.
The best answer is the one that gave Reed Richards to a powerless Ben Grim tha sked if he using an exosheton that Reed had done for him to simulate his powers was not an infrigement of the FF incoporated rules that dictated that the FF had four superpowered members . He said that he had consulted a lawyer and he had assured him that the concepts of superheroes and superpowers were so vague and all encompassing that they had nothing to worry about.
every game hero is technically a superhero since everyone has powers beyond the uman range. Just look at the jumps in Quake or Tomb Raider :biggrin: and how many bulleets need the baddies to down Lara Croft.
That's not quite true though is it.
Well written intrigue or espionage games tend to have characters that are realistically human as this builds suspense and makes the game more tense. Some of the classic games require serious amounts of stealth and planning to avoid an early and sudden death.
A good games designer can build up fear by the fragility of the character, which is why such things are so valued by the horror genre. Zombies can be terrifying, especially when a single wound can turn a character into a zombie.
So if someone slaps together a game where character charges in like a, well a superhero, and yawns as they kill everything in their path due to their superpowers associated with a somewhat familiar claws or a special shield without any risk of danger or fear ...
... people can quite rightly get rather suspicious about the game's genre.
Superhero stories, done well, are about modern archetypes.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
Well written intrigue or espionage games tend to have characters that are realistically human as this builds suspense and makes the game more tense. Some of the classic games require serious amounts of stealth and planning to avoid an early and sudden death.
A good games designer can build up fear by the fragility of the character, which is why such things are so valued by the horror genre. Zombies can be terrifying, especially when a single wound can turn a character into a zombie.
So if someone slaps together a game where character charges in like a, well a superhero, and yawns as they kill everything in their path due to their superpowers associated with a somewhat familiar claws or a special shield without any risk of danger or fear ...
... people can quite rightly get rather suspicious about the game's genre.
By extension, then, characters in fantasy games should be injured, maimed or killed by a single arrow or sword stroke. Which is just what happens... oh, wait.
You're saying that character durability is an indicator of the super-hero genre. While true, it is also an indicator of the MMO genre. It's kind of hard to generate trinity-based raid or dungeon play in an MMO if your tank can't take a hit.
_________________________________________________
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
By extension, then, characters in fantasy games should be injured, maimed or killed by a single arrow or sword stroke. Which is just what happens... oh, wait.
You're saying that character durability is an indicator of the super-hero genre. While true, it is also an indicator of the MMO genre. It's kind of hard to generate trinity-based raid or dungeon play in an MMO if your tank can't take a hit.
I'm talking about style of play, not just durability.
However allowances can be given for poorly written games, of course.
Superhero stories, done well, are about modern archetypes.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
STO has missions like that. I went straight to the wiki for answers.
If I want a puzzle game, I'll play a puzzle game like, say, TSW. I'm here to beat up bad guys and look awesome doing it.
I don't want the game to be all about puzzles and alternate goals. I just want a portion of the missions to have a goal other than beat X or collect Y. Maybe 10% of missions? That would be awesome.
Huh... Maybe I'm crazy but, it looks like not a single one of the things you've quoted was actually said by me yet, you still insist that I'm saying things that I'm apparently not considering you said you found all the posts making that claim and none were from me so, I'm just gonna chalk this up to a lack of comprehension.
You launched yourself into this debate when you said in that post I replied to earlier that TSW characters could be considered superheroes. Up to that point you weren't in it. And then in the same post you carried the growing backpedaling mantra that claims "but we're not claiming it's a superhero game." This is bizarrely illogical.
If the characters are superheroes, then shouldn't the game logically be a superhero game?
I'll even be nice and throw you a bone to explain what I said even though you'll just say it's more backpedaling. I was not harping on Biff about anything. I was commenting on how ridiculous many of the people in this thread were when trying to say what does and does not decide whether or not someone is a superhero. Take a look at what some people said decide what makes someone a superhero. If you combine it all, almost no major comic book characters are superheroes according to the people in this thread. To me, that's kinda dumb. It's also narrow minded.
The closest I came to saying whether or not the characters in TSW are superheroes was in that same post and unless you've played it, you wouldn't even be capable of understanding the context of it. I quote a NPC in that game that says, "I knew you'd show up. First zombies. Then government agents. Now superheroes." The person that says that is a kid that's been hiding out by himself in a town that's been overrun with monsters. At that point, there isn't any secret agent stuff or hidden mysteries and you're not hiding what you're capable of. It's a kid witnessing someone with extraordinary powers beating the tar out of monsters that have layed waste to his home. So here's a new challenge for you. Try to explain why someone in a situation like that can't be called a superhero.
Funny. First you claim that you weren't intending to enter the debate and merely commenting and then in the next paragraph, you proceed to continue on with the debate.
You cannot pick a side and still consider yourself a neutral, impartial party.
As for the kid, you're only a superhero in his or her mind. At the end of the day, you're still only a protagonist of a dark urban fantasy world.
I'm not quite there with the whole "they're not a superhero because of the setting" thing or "they're not a superhero because of how they are dressed" thing. I'm a Black, martial arts expert who is a father. Whether I'm in a dojo or behind a desk pushing a pencil I still possess these abilities and this knowledge. Whether I'm wearing a gi or wearing a suit I still have more ways to break an arm and carve someone into a disfigured flesh sculpture with my karambit than Martha Stewart knows recipes. If I go into the bright of daylight or into a dark room my skin is the same color and whether I'm at a school function or at a bar for happy hour I'm still a father. What I am, what I am classified as and what I can do don't change based on my clothes, what city I am in, who is around me or what side of the street I'm on.
And Superman is also a reporter. That doesn't make it his defining trait.
Just not getting all the hair splitting and fairly convoluted explanations for why characters that would clearly be superheroes in any marvel/DC/image story being called something else (despite being referred to as such in their own game) solely based on how they dress or their surroundings. In no other area that I can think of would this even remotely fly.
Lt. Commander Data: Superhero?
The President is only the President in the setting of the White House...
If his term just ended, very likely true.
A Police Officer is only an Officer when in uniform...
A CEO is only a CEO when in his or her suit and in the setting of a board meeting...
A Fire Fighter is only a hero when in uniform, in the setting of a blazing building...
A Marine is only a Marine while enlisted...
A Doctor is only a Doctor when in the setting of a hospital and equipped with a lab coat and stethoscope...
A Game Programmer is only a Programmer while in the setting of a desk while actively coding...
It depends... are these their defining traits, or merely professions? In the words of South African actor Cliff Simon, "Acting is what I do for a living, not what I am."
A Fish is only a Fish in the setting of an ocean...
By your arguments, everything that swims is a fish.
is a superhero ? He was the first one and an inspiration to the Superman char but in the novel none call him "superhero" here
you can download the novel
STO has missions like that. I went straight to the wiki for answers.
If I want a puzzle game, I'll play a puzzle game like, say, TSW. I'm here to beat up bad guys and look awesome doing it.
In other words, you want missions to be LAME. Got it
PS: Also, TSW's missions are far more than just "puzzles", there are also elaborate, multi-tiered missions that would fit into any genre. Hell, even puzzles would fit any genre, and in a hero setting they're the only kind that fit a brainy type of hero--or at least, they'd be incomplete in what they do without them. Not every "super" hero is Hulk Smash!
I like a lot of the gameplay elements of TSW, btw.
I wish that Champions had more missions involving puzzles and convo trees and such. Not every mission has to be "Defeat X" or "Collect X". Sure, Champs has a few missions with different sorts of goals, but they are few and far between.
I wonder if the Foundry allows creation of missions with some really different objectives.
Like the one where you have to guide someone to their room during their nightmare and do it by calling out their name to let them know when it's safe. That's something you just don't see in MMOs.
Like the one where you have to guide someone to their room during their nightmare and do it by calling out their name to let them know when it's safe. That's something you just don't see in MMOs.
I think Aftershock is one of the best story arcs in Champions. It has some cool missions.
It'll only be a dead issue when you weirdos stop calling anything and everything that has more-than-human powers a superhero. :P
ET is a superhero!
No ET is clearly a supervillain :biggrin:
and doc Savage what is he ? Not a superhero maybe but certanly a superman
If you call them supermen and superwomen instead of superheroes could it help to clear up the issue?
Not me. I read it all. You quoted one of my posts, disputing it by saying essentially what I had said in that post, even though you cut that part out of the quote, and then claimed that I was harping on Biff for saying that TSW wasn't a superhero game even though I had said it wasn't in the post you quoted. You then offered to go back and point out where it had been said that it was a superhore game so I accepted that offer at which point you quoted a bunch of people that said nothing of the sort.
Again, I'm gonna chalk that up to some comprehension problems or you're just moving the goalposts.
Funny. First you claim that you weren't intending to enter the debate and merely commenting and then in the next paragraph, you proceed to continue on with the debate.
I said nothing of the sort. I said I was interested in knowing which side I'm supposedly on since you keep trying to assert that I'm on one.
Why don't go the full route and just group all aliens into the superhero category? Take these guys. They do stuff with technology that we simply can't, ergo they're superheroes now.
Ack ack? AAACK ACK ACK! Ack ack ack ack aaack! *breathing noise* Aaack ack ack ack!
*ET's a superhero? ET'S A SUPERHERO! HA ha ha ha haaa! *breathes* Haaa ha ha ha!*
Not me. I read it all. You quoted one of my posts, disputing it by saying essentially what I had said in that post, even though you cut that part out of the quote, and then claimed that I was harping on Biff
Ack ack? AAACK ACK ACK! Ack ack ack ack aaack! *breathing noise* Aaack ack ack ack!
*ET's a superhero? ET'S A SUPERHERO! HA ha ha ha haaa! *breathes* Haaa ha ha ha!*
He can make his finger glow. I can't. Superhero!
On top of that, he can heal cuts and bring dead birds to life. I can't. Superhero!
I think the main thing that makes them not-superheroes for me is that they've all got the same source of their powers; a magic bee flew into their mouth one night as they were sleeping.
Also, the fact that it's all magic; no radioactive insects, or aliens from red sun planets, no high-tech, no genetic experimentation, no cosmic radiation (or gamma radiation for that matter), no super-soldier serum, no accidents while in a research lab.
Every single one has the same background story; average Joe gets chosen by Gaia to fight for her, gets magical powers, fights evil and other secret societies.
And it's not like we're unique either; there's lots of the bee-people out there. The Templar training ground officer even remarks "You're not the only one, you're not the Chosen One, you're part of an army; our army".
Be that as it may, clearly the characters are super-powered. Whether they're also super-HEROes, is obviously up for debate
At the very least, the game is not a classic super-hero game.
All characters in CoX, regardless of origin, could trace their powers back to the discovery/tampering with the well of the Furies. A common origin doesn't necessarily rule out whether someone is a superhero or not.
I think the *characters* can be considered superheroes, but the way they conduct themselves, the organizations they work for, and the types of forces they are fighting against, steers the game toward being more about intrigue/horror/modern-fantasy.
It's the overall less flamboyant tone of the game, and the more bleak outlook the organizations have of the world, that leads me to not view TSW as a superhero game; It just happens to have superhumans/superheroes in it.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
I really don't think I am. You quoted me and attempted to dispute in that post what I had said even though I'd said the same thing and you'd just left it out of your quote. When I commented on that you said it was because I was backpedaling and that you had quoted it because people were harping on Biff. If you don't think I was then why were you quoting me instead of directing your comments to the people that you seem to think were getting on his case?
And from there we enter a debate with the most bizarre stretching of logic and splitting of hairs that I have ever seen.
I do get that it's an almost absurd amount of hair splitting, but that's my point about the subtleties of genre. What's the difference between diesel punk and steam punk? Horror and Psychological Horror? Thriller and Drama?
Even taking the route of within the comic world - Superman can move at incredible speeds, but isn't a speedster. Sentry can travel the world in a matter of seconds/minutes, while Quicksilver tops out at about 400mph. Sentry is not a speedster and Quicksilver is; why? Because Sentry has additional powers? Aurora and Northstar are both speedsters with the ability to fly, enhanced strength and durability and the ability to project light. Quicksilver is a speedster but the much faster Cannonball is not; why? Because he projects energy and has an invulnerable shield? Flash has an invulnerable shield, as did Impulse and both project energy when running, with Impulse at one time being able to project time-traveling energy-clones of himself.
Is it a little silly? Sure. But there are subtleties that define the characters' themes.
I'm not quite there with the whole "they're not a superhero because of the setting" thing or "they're not a superhero because of how they are dressed" thing. I'm a Black, martial arts expert who is a father. Whether I'm in a dojo or behind a desk pushing a pencil I still possess these abilities and this knowledge. Whether I'm wearing a gi or wearing a suit I still have more ways to break an arm and carve someone into a disfigured flesh sculpture with my karambit than Martha Stewart knows recipes. If I go into the bright of daylight or into a dark room my skin is the same color and whether I'm at a school function or at a bar for happy hour I'm still a father. What I am, what I am classified as and what I can do don't change based on my clothes, what city I am in, who is around me or what side of the street I'm on.
The clothes and the setting may make part of the genre but they don't make the man/woman/character.
Just not getting all the hair splitting and fairly convoluted explanations for why characters that would clearly be superheroes in any marvel/DC/image story being called something else (despite being referred to as such in their own game) solely based on how they dress or their surroundings. In no other area that I can think of would this even remotely fly.
The President is only the President in the setting of the White House...
A Police Officer is only an Officer when in uniform...
A CEO is only a CEO when in his or her suit and in the setting of a board meeting...
A Fire Fighter is only a hero when in uniform, in the setting of a blazing building...
A Marine is only a Marine while enlisted...
A Doctor is only a Doctor when in the setting of a hospital and equipped with a lab coat and stethoscope...
A Game Programmer is only a Programmer while in the setting of a desk while actively coding...
A Fish is only a Fish in the setting of an ocean...
While I agree with the general premise of your statements, there's a huge difference between the vast depths and dimensions of a real person versus the purpose of a fictional character. Are they one dimensional caricatures? The well written ones are not, but that doesn't change the fact that they are literary tools and agents of narrative and story.
That was not the first time that Spidey faced the X-men alone http://marvel.wikia.com/X-Men_Vol_1_35
And in the very first issue of Amazing Spiderman he faced the FF (fantastic four not freeforms )
and last but not least
Eh, the Firelord thing is generally disavowed by comics fans when we have this argument because even with the symbiote, it's so absurd that it really doesn't make any damn sense. I love me some Spidey, and I think he probably could beat Firelord, but not on their first encounter without any sort of warning, preparation or assistance, and not through pure brute strength and speed the way he did. It's generally referred to as Plot/Writer Induced Stupidity.
But yeah, I generally stand in the "Spidey wins" category. I actually think Wolverine when written well is a good character, he's just generally not, and extremely dangerous as a fighter, quite capable of standing his ground against a good number of threats, but Spidey is not one of those characters. He can take a punch from the Hulk and stand back up, lift a car over his head, support a good amount of the weight from a falling sky scraper, has a genius level intellect, can dodge bullets, punch through metal and rip it in half, has at least a decade of fighting experience, and has been trained by some of the greatest fighters alive with just recently receiving instruction from someone who is recognized as the greatest martial artist in Marvel in order to develop a fighting style perfectly suited to him which he has used, sans Spider-sense, to defeat other top tier fighters in hand to hand combat.
Unless Wolverine can hit a borderline precognitive target moving at 80mph in 3 dimensions that's capable of ripping his arms out of their sockets (because while his bones are unbreakable, his joints are not) and is trained to do so, faster than the speed of sound with precision, he shouldn't win. In a sparring match or training session, sure. Not in a fight.
I really don't think I am. You quoted me and attempted to dispute in that post what I had said even though I'd said the same thing and you'd just left it out of your quote. When I commented on that you said it was because I was backpedaling and that you had quoted it because people were harping on Biff. If you don't think I was then why were you quoting me instead of directing your comments to the people that you seem to think were getting on his case?
I never said anyone harped on Biff. You're making stuff up.
Someone said that the characters you play in Secret World are not superheroes. Then a bunch of people said they are. Every game that I've played that you play as a superhero, I would consider a superhero game. How you would not make that connection is just a bit weird. You're basically saying "This game is about superheroes, but it's not a superhero game." Does that make any sense to you? You just can't have both things.
Comments
There are plenty of games where your character is essentially a superhero, but it isn't a game in the superhero genre. For instance, in many fantasy MMOs, you have a super-strong character who can shoot energy beams, similar to many superheroes. Still, the tropes and trapping don't match a supers setting.
Like I said, transplanting superheroes into other settings and story types (or games) doesn't mean you still have a superhero story. You might, but you might not.
When I talk to people about Champions, and I say, "It is a cool superhero game where you make your own hero and costume, fight villains, and save people," they quickly develop a good picture of the game, because of tropes.
In describing TSW, I would reference both the urban fantasy and ancient conspiracy parts of the game, and that would give a prospective player a good idea of the sort of game they would be getting into. Superheroes would not.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
I came at you with a real attack. Haymaker. Now you're this:
Personally, that doesn't work for me. I wouldn't call Tim the Enchanter a superhero, even though he can do exactly the same thing as some superheroes. I wouldn't say Monty Python and the Holy Grail is a movie about superheroes but it's not a superhero movie. I honestly don't care who can do what and how similar it is to superheroes. Just because you can do something no other human can do doesn't make you a superhero.
Usain Bolt can run faster than anyone else. Superhero?
True, and it works conversely just as well. Gandalf might not be a superhero, but put him in Millennium City fighting supervillains and what's different between him and Witchcraft?
A beard, his robe and wizard hat.
And that HIS staff has an emanation point.
*lands somewhere in Vibora Bay*
Ha! That's awesome.
:rolleyes:
I guess you're right, this guy is clearly a superhero:
Actually, I did read it all.
And no, what it was was backpedaling, as pointed out by Biff, someone said TSW wasn't "superheroes" and everyone harped on him that TSW was.
I could go back and find all the posts if you want.
Oh, and Proot's posts actively counteract your side's backpedaling claims.
No it's not. It starts out with him as a child with a monkey tail living alone in the wild after his grandfather had died years before. Then Bulma shows up on her search for the Dragonballs and they go off on wacky adventures together.
Nowhere are there any mention of any Saiyans or a Planet Vegeta or anything like that because Mr. Toriyama hadn't come up with them yet.
Gandalf really isn't. While he does have magical powers, he doesn't take center stage and is mostly guiding the real heroes to where they need to go.
I was mostly referring to groups like the Legion of Superheroes, Guardians of the Galaxy or the New Gods.
It does.
Too bad for you that they also embody all the other well-known superhero tropes such as regular rogues galleries, secret identities (although Stark is frustratingly like a revolving door with this one--that and his armor actually resembled spandex for the loooongest time, how did he bend his legs?), underlying character themes, etc.
Everything from that post Pion made that defined the superhero trope.
Clearly CO must be a horror game.
In his first appearance, his armor was jointed, as it was just made out of iron.
In his second appearance, he updated his suit to be gold so that the general public could tell who's the good guy when he's fighting someone (gotta love the 60s!), but that suit wasn't made of just iron. It was made of several tiny parts that hooked up together. Stark carried the Iron Man suit in a suitcase - it could be folded up like regular clothes, but when the suit was powered up, it became rigid. I'm guessing that he could bend his knees by the suit just adjusting its shape to accommodate movement.
Yeah, but Witchcraft is more useful.
Not to mention Witchcraft is better looking. (Although with the atrocious character models CO has, not by much. >_>)
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
Oh, yea of little faith.......
http://pvponline.com/comic/2010/12/22/no-naughty-shall-escape-their-sight
'Wen considered the nature of time and understood that the universe is, instant by instant, recreated anew. Therefore, he understood, there is in truth no past, only a memory of the past. Blink your eyes, and the world you see next did not exist when you closed them. Therefore, he said, the only appropriate state of the mind is surprise. The only appropriate state of the heart is joy. The sky you see now, you have never seen before. The perfect moment is now. Be glad of it.' Terry Pratchet The Thief Of Time
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Alright. I'll take that challenge. Please go through this thread and find where I said TSW is a superhero game.
Since when am I on a side? I already asked you to try to explain which side this is you seem to think I'm on, in the post you last quoted actually and you don't seem to be willing to do that.
And where did I name you specifically? I said "everyone."
You launched yourself into this debate when you said in that post I replied to earlier that TSW characters could be considered superheroes. Up to that point you weren't in it. And then in the same post you carried the growing backpedaling mantra that claims "but we're not claiming it's a superhero game." This is bizarrely illogical.
If the characters are superheroes, then shouldn't the game logically be a superhero game?
That wasn't the challenge. The challenge was to go back and find all the posts where someone said TSW wasn't "supers", meaning superheroes, and the following insistence that they were and post them.
So here they are.
And from there we enter a debate with the most bizarre stretching of logic and splitting of hairs that I have ever seen.
The TSW characters are superheroes side.
As I said, you have characters with superhero powers, but the game doesn't fit most common tropes to comic book super hero stories ("supers"). TSW does fit into the categories of ancient conspiracies and urban fantasy, and the game is billed as such.
From TSW's own web site:
"In a world where every conspiracy theory, every myth, fable and urban legend is true, three ancient societies pull the strings and decide our fate. Forced into alliance by circumstance, they stand united against the rising darkness, but remain divided in pursuit of power."
"Imagine a world where vampires hunt for mortal blood in London nightclubs, where werewolves hide in the New York subways, and where demons lurk in the shadows of Seoul. Imagine no more. Step into the secret world."
"With the whole world, all its history, all its legends and all its myths to choose from, the developers of The Secret World are creating a story unlike anything you have ever seen before in a massively multiplayer online game. The Secret World features a unique, story-driven gameplay experience that explores the myths, legends and conspiracy theories of the real world."
They are describing an urban fantasy, ancient conspiracy setting. There's nothing about superheroes defeating villains, saving people from burning buildings, capes and masks, or other common superhero tropes.
Being a superhero game or story is about more than having characters with super powers. Super Mario Bros isn't a plumbing game, even though the main character is a plumber. Characters in a typical fantasy MMO have super powers, but they aren't superhero games.
Doesn't anyone but me and jonsils read TV Tropes?
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Huh... Maybe I'm crazy but, it looks like not a single one of the things you've quoted was actually said by me yet, you still insist that I'm saying things that I'm apparently not considering you said you found all the posts making that claim and none were from me so, I'm just gonna chalk this up to a lack of comprehension.
I'll even be nice and throw you a bone to explain what I said even though you'll just say it's more backpedaling. I was not harping on Biff about anything. I was commenting on how ridiculous many of the people in this thread were when trying to say what does and does not decide whether or not someone is a superhero. Take a look at what some people said decide what makes someone a superhero. If you combine it all, almost no major comic book characters are superheroes according to the people in this thread. To me, that's kinda dumb. It's also narrow minded.
The closest I came to saying whether or not the characters in TSW are superheroes was in that same post and unless you've played it, you wouldn't even be capable of understanding the context of it. I quote a NPC in that game that says, "I knew you'd show up. First zombies. Then government agents. Now superheroes." The person that says that is a kid that's been hiding out by himself in a town that's been overrun with monsters. At that point, there isn't any secret agent stuff or hidden mysteries and you're not hiding what you're capable of. It's a kid witnessing someone with extraordinary powers beating the tar out of monsters that have layed waste to his home. So here's a new challenge for you. Try to explain why someone in a situation like that can't be called a superhero.
That was not the first time that Spidey faced the X-men alone
http://marvel.wikia.com/X-Men_Vol_1_35
And in the very first issue of Amazing Spiderman he faced the FF (fantastic four not freeforms
and last but not least
LOL, this made my morning.
My Amazon author page
How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
As to whether the player characters are superheroes, well: Several NPCs in TSW refer to the player characters as "superheroes" (one that most people even just giving the game a try will have met is Danny Dufresne, they boy at the skate park in Kingsmouth).
Are the characters superheroes? No, I can't say they are, because they're not in a superhero setting; they're in a rather unique modern-day horror/mystery setting, with myths and conspiracies way more prevalent than super-powered villains.
Without spoiling too much, you're a Joe or Jane Doe that gets "blessed" by Gaia, given magical (or super if you like) powers far beyond any mere mortal, and then snatched up by a secret society that's been snatching up Gaia's creations for millennia.
So on one hand you want to help save Gaia, and on the other you want to help your secret society accomplish its goals (world domination, eradication of evil, or just plain old chaos). Finally, of course, you might have your own goals. All this is excellently told in cut-scenes, dialogue, and fluff texts.
And as an aside, you aren't immortal. They let you know this in no uncertain terms; you're *very* hard to kill, but it can be done.
As for the ability system and the notion of "wasted" points, sure, when you're just starting out you might think that it's a waste taking abilities you don't see a use for right at the moment, but later on you'll find that the abilities you thought were useless in fact are quite useful. You most likely won't be using just a single build throughout the game; different fights go much easier or harder depending on how you tweak your build. As an example, an affliction-heavy build won't be much use on mobs that are immune to affliction (or even increase their damage if afflicted).
TSW is a hard game in some ways; you have to think about what you're about to do, and in many cases (at least after leaving Solomon Islands) you have to adjust your build to the fight you're about to get yourself into. There's no clear "best build" or a single "best way" to do things, but several.
It's not like many MMOs out there; it can be a bit hard to get into if you think it's going to be just another MMO, or if you think it's a zombie-shooter. It's extremely rewarding if you take your time to listen to the NPCs, read the lore as you find it, and read the mission briefings/debriefings. The writing is second to none.
The character customization is good, but not as good as CO's; we only a month ago got the ability to change our character's height (and only by +-10%); that said, I almost never see two people that look alike, so there clearly is a lot of options.
Finally, then, development. Up until the recent financial troubles and restructuring at Funcom, they put out a content patch a month, with new missions, new weapons, bug fixes and balance fixes. If I understand things correctly now that they've moved to a Buy-to-Play model, these won't be guaranteed to come one every month any more, but instead will be "regular", and will cost money (unless you're as subscriber, when you can buy them with your monthly stipend).
If you haven't, give it a try. It's a fantastic game in my opinion, with more freedom than most MMOs, and writing that's better than anyone else's.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Change Gaia to Shazam.
I'm not quite there with the whole "they're not a superhero because of the setting" thing or "they're not a superhero because of how they are dressed" thing. I'm a Black, martial arts expert who is a father. Whether I'm in a dojo or behind a desk pushing a pencil I still possess these abilities and this knowledge. Whether I'm wearing a gi or wearing a suit I still have more ways to break an arm and carve someone into a disfigured flesh sculpture with my karambit than Martha Stewart knows recipes. If I go into the bright of daylight or into a dark room my skin is the same color and whether I'm at a school function or at a bar for happy hour I'm still a father. What I am, what I am classified as and what I can do don't change based on my clothes, what city I am in, who is around me or what side of the street I'm on.
The clothes and the setting may make part of the genre but they don't make the man/woman/character.
Just not getting all the hair splitting and fairly convoluted explanations for why characters that would clearly be superheroes in any marvel/DC/image story being called something else (despite being referred to as such in their own game) solely based on how they dress or their surroundings. In no other area that I can think of would this even remotely fly.
The President is only the President in the setting of the White House...
A Police Officer is only an Officer when in uniform...
A CEO is only a CEO when in his or her suit and in the setting of a board meeting...
A Fire Fighter is only a hero when in uniform, in the setting of a blazing building...
A Marine is only a Marine while enlisted...
A Doctor is only a Doctor when in the setting of a hospital and equipped with a lab coat and stethoscope...
A Game Programmer is only a Programmer while in the setting of a desk while actively coding...
A Fish is only a Fish in the setting of an ocean...
My Amazon author page
How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
Also, the fact that it's all magic; no radioactive insects, or aliens from red sun planets, no high-tech, no genetic experimentation, no cosmic radiation (or gamma radiation for that matter), no super-soldier serum, no accidents while in a research lab.
Every single one has the same background story; average Joe gets chosen by Gaia to fight for her, gets magical powers, fights evil and other secret societies.
And it's not like we're unique either; there's lots of the bee-people out there. The Templar training ground officer even remarks "You're not the only one, you're not the Chosen One, you're part of an army; our army".
Be that as it may, clearly the characters are super-powered. Whether they're also super-HEROes, is obviously up for debate
At the very least, the game is not a classic super-hero game.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
A marine that is a character in a soap opera is in a soap opera, not a war-story. In fact, one could have a war story without any characters being explicitly part of a military unit.
Having a certain type of character doesn't make the story conform to a genre.
Genre is determined by a set of agreed-upon and understood conventions, called tropes.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
True, which is why I was talking about the Marine being a Marine regardless of the story.
Is TSW a game in the superhero genre? Debatable (I lean towards no). Are the characters superheroes? Of course they are. Many of them are nigh identical in powers and origin story to characters found in Marvel, DC, Image, Dynamite, etc. comics that are considered superheroes.
My Amazon author page
How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
/thread er well...the super hero or not discussion anyway lol
I wish that Champions had more missions involving puzzles and convo trees and such. Not every mission has to be "Defeat X" or "Collect X". Sure, Champs has a few missions with different sorts of goals, but they are few and far between.
I wonder if the Foundry allows creation of missions with some really different objectives.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
This^
And...
/Signed
There is more to RPG missions than just tank and spank, then collect the drops. MMOs have done a horrible job of consistently trying to dumb down RPG mission objecttives for YEARS and CO is for the most part further behind even than even other MMOs.
I wish more MMOs were more like TSW in this respect and hope that the Foundry (on the unlikely event that it will finally come to this game in our lifetimes :rolleyes:) will provide tools for creating more elaborate missions.
On the other hand there are comics book chars that have not superpowers like the Batman and are considered supheroes while others that have them like Mr Spock and Tarzan are not.
The best answer is the one that gave Reed Richards to a powerless Ben Grim tha sked if he using an exosheton that Reed had done for him to simulate his powers was not an infrigement of the FF incoporated rules that dictated that the FF had four superpowered members . He said that he had consulted a lawyer and he had assured him that the concepts of superheroes and superpowers were so vague and all encompassing that they had nothing to worry about.
STO has missions like that. I went straight to the wiki for answers.
If I want a puzzle game, I'll play a puzzle game like, say, TSW. I'm here to beat up bad guys and look awesome doing it.
That's not quite true though is it.
Well written intrigue or espionage games tend to have characters that are realistically human as this builds suspense and makes the game more tense. Some of the classic games require serious amounts of stealth and planning to avoid an early and sudden death.
A good games designer can build up fear by the fragility of the character, which is why such things are so valued by the horror genre. Zombies can be terrifying, especially when a single wound can turn a character into a zombie.
So if someone slaps together a game where character charges in like a, well a superhero, and yawns as they kill everything in their path due to their superpowers associated with a somewhat familiar claws or a special shield without any risk of danger or fear ...
... people can quite rightly get rather suspicious about the game's genre.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
By extension, then, characters in fantasy games should be injured, maimed or killed by a single arrow or sword stroke. Which is just what happens... oh, wait.
You're saying that character durability is an indicator of the super-hero genre. While true, it is also an indicator of the MMO genre. It's kind of hard to generate trinity-based raid or dungeon play in an MMO if your tank can't take a hit.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
I'm talking about style of play, not just durability.
However allowances can be given for poorly written games, of course.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
I don't want the game to be all about puzzles and alternate goals. I just want a portion of the missions to have a goal other than beat X or collect Y. Maybe 10% of missions? That would be awesome.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Now who didn't read everything?
Funny. First you claim that you weren't intending to enter the debate and merely commenting and then in the next paragraph, you proceed to continue on with the debate.
You cannot pick a side and still consider yourself a neutral, impartial party.
As for the kid, you're only a superhero in his or her mind. At the end of the day, you're still only a protagonist of a dark urban fantasy world.
So, is the Lantern Ring powered by Shazam?
And Superman is also a reporter. That doesn't make it his defining trait.
Lt. Commander Data: Superhero?
If his term just ended, very likely true.
It depends... are these their defining traits, or merely professions? In the words of South African actor Cliff Simon, "Acting is what I do for a living, not what I am."
By your arguments, everything that swims is a fish.
for every purpose escept by name he is and
this one
is a superhero ? He was the first one and an inspiration to the Superman char but in the novel none call him "superhero"
here
you can download the novel
In other words, you want missions to be LAME. Got it
PS: Also, TSW's missions are far more than just "puzzles", there are also elaborate, multi-tiered missions that would fit into any genre. Hell, even puzzles would fit any genre, and in a hero setting they're the only kind that fit a brainy type of hero--or at least, they'd be incomplete in what they do without them. Not every "super" hero is Hulk Smash!
*watches kojirohellfire cut his/her fingers while still splitting hairs over a dead issue*
Because I didn't understand a single thing you said, I'm going to go with ... No.
You could not understand what I said but an article of wikipedia should be clear enough to understand , I think :rolleyes:
It'll only be a dead issue when you weirdos stop calling anything and everything that has more-than-human powers a superhero. :P
ET is a superhero!
Like the one where you have to guide someone to their room during their nightmare and do it by calling out their name to let them know when it's safe. That's something you just don't see in MMOs.
I think Aftershock is one of the best story arcs in Champions. It has some cool missions.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
and doc Savage what is he ? Not a superhero maybe but certanly a superman
If you call them supermen and superwomen instead of superheroes could it help to clear up the issue?
Again, I'm gonna chalk that up to some comprehension problems or you're just moving the goalposts.
I said nothing of the sort. I said I was interested in knowing which side I'm supposedly on since you keep trying to assert that I'm on one.
More arbitrary rules?:rolleyes:
In other words, you can't explain why someone wouldn't be a superhero given those specific circumstances. Alright. Thank you.
Why don't go the full route and just group all aliens into the superhero category? Take these guys. They do stuff with technology that we simply can't, ergo they're superheroes now.
Ack ack? AAACK ACK ACK! Ack ack ack ack aaack! *breathing noise* Aaack ack ack ack!
*ET's a superhero? ET'S A SUPERHERO! HA ha ha ha haaa! *breathes* Haaa ha ha ha!*
Now you're making stuff up. Goodbye.
He can make his finger glow. I can't. Superhero!
On top of that, he can heal cuts and bring dead birds to life. I can't. Superhero!
All characters in CoX, regardless of origin, could trace their powers back to the discovery/tampering with the well of the Furies. A common origin doesn't necessarily rule out whether someone is a superhero or not.
I think the *characters* can be considered superheroes, but the way they conduct themselves, the organizations they work for, and the types of forces they are fighting against, steers the game toward being more about intrigue/horror/modern-fantasy.
It's the overall less flamboyant tone of the game, and the more bleak outlook the organizations have of the world, that leads me to not view TSW as a superhero game; It just happens to have superhumans/superheroes in it.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
I really don't think I am. You quoted me and attempted to dispute in that post what I had said even though I'd said the same thing and you'd just left it out of your quote. When I commented on that you said it was because I was backpedaling and that you had quoted it because people were harping on Biff. If you don't think I was then why were you quoting me instead of directing your comments to the people that you seem to think were getting on his case?
I do get that it's an almost absurd amount of hair splitting, but that's my point about the subtleties of genre. What's the difference between diesel punk and steam punk? Horror and Psychological Horror? Thriller and Drama?
Even taking the route of within the comic world - Superman can move at incredible speeds, but isn't a speedster. Sentry can travel the world in a matter of seconds/minutes, while Quicksilver tops out at about 400mph. Sentry is not a speedster and Quicksilver is; why? Because Sentry has additional powers? Aurora and Northstar are both speedsters with the ability to fly, enhanced strength and durability and the ability to project light. Quicksilver is a speedster but the much faster Cannonball is not; why? Because he projects energy and has an invulnerable shield? Flash has an invulnerable shield, as did Impulse and both project energy when running, with Impulse at one time being able to project time-traveling energy-clones of himself.
Is it a little silly? Sure. But there are subtleties that define the characters' themes.
While I agree with the general premise of your statements, there's a huge difference between the vast depths and dimensions of a real person versus the purpose of a fictional character. Are they one dimensional caricatures? The well written ones are not, but that doesn't change the fact that they are literary tools and agents of narrative and story.
Eh, the Firelord thing is generally disavowed by comics fans when we have this argument because even with the symbiote, it's so absurd that it really doesn't make any damn sense. I love me some Spidey, and I think he probably could beat Firelord, but not on their first encounter without any sort of warning, preparation or assistance, and not through pure brute strength and speed the way he did. It's generally referred to as Plot/Writer Induced Stupidity.
But yeah, I generally stand in the "Spidey wins" category. I actually think Wolverine when written well is a good character, he's just generally not, and extremely dangerous as a fighter, quite capable of standing his ground against a good number of threats, but Spidey is not one of those characters. He can take a punch from the Hulk and stand back up, lift a car over his head, support a good amount of the weight from a falling sky scraper, has a genius level intellect, can dodge bullets, punch through metal and rip it in half, has at least a decade of fighting experience, and has been trained by some of the greatest fighters alive with just recently receiving instruction from someone who is recognized as the greatest martial artist in Marvel in order to develop a fighting style perfectly suited to him which he has used, sans Spider-sense, to defeat other top tier fighters in hand to hand combat.
Unless Wolverine can hit a borderline precognitive target moving at 80mph in 3 dimensions that's capable of ripping his arms out of their sockets (because while his bones are unbreakable, his joints are not) and is trained to do so, faster than the speed of sound with precision, he shouldn't win. In a sparring match or training session, sure. Not in a fight.
I never said anyone harped on Biff. You're making stuff up.
See here:
The underline is in reference to this post from Biff:
Who has the comprehension problems now?