1) What do the "harder" difficulties consist of? The same mobs as normal with a buff that increases their health and damage. What are "tough" mobs? The same mobs as normal but they have 2x health and 2x damage. These "solutions" to difficulty were implemented, imo, because is is easier to program stat changes across the board than it is to modify the ai for different classes of enemies, or even individual ones.
2) The only mob pass that I can remember which wasn't like this was the Viper pass, when an attempt was made to introduce different mechanics and spread the mobs out a bit more. That was in Balseraph's day. The only "increased difficulty" we've gotten lately has been (for some, anyway) Gravitar and Warlord, and maybe Hai Pan for some people. Imo a new difficulty level would probably be like the old ones, a buff to mob HP and damage.
3) What would happen if a more health/more damage difficulty level were put in? Those who even bother to use it will adapt their builds (if they even need to). Without better rewards, most people might try it out, then abandon it. With better rewards, it will be speed mined until people have what they want, then abandoned.
I am not against adding such a level. I'd like better AI, but let's face it, we are unlikely to get it.
All that said, are there enough people who want it to justify the effort to produce it? Also, a lot of effort has been expended in this thread to convince forumites. I have seen zero herein that would help a developer prove to management that the effort would be cost effective.
_________________________________________________
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
1) What do the "harder" difficulties consist of? The same mobs as normal with a buff that increases their health and damage. What are "tough" mobs? The same mobs as normal but they have 2x health and 2x damage. These "solutions" to difficulty were implemented, imo, because is is easier to program stat changes across the board than it is to modify the ai for different classes of enemies, or even individual ones.
2) The only mob pass that I can remember which wasn't like this was the Viper pass, when an attempt was made to introduce different mechanics and spread the mobs out a bit more. That was in Balseraph's day. The only "increased difficulty" we've gotten lately has been (for some, anyway) Gravitar and Warlord, and maybe Hai Pan for some people. Imo a new difficulty level would probably be like the old ones, a buff to mob HP and damage.
3) What would happen if a more health/more damage difficulty level were put in? Those who even bother to use it will adapt their builds (if they even need to). Without better rewards, most people might try it out, then abandon it. With better rewards, it will be speed mined until people have what they want, then abandoned.
I am not against adding such a level. I'd like better AI, but let's face it, we are unlikely to get it.
All that said, are there enough people who want it to justify the effort to produce it? Also, a lot of effort has been expended in this thread to convince forumites. I have seen zero herein that would help a developer prove to management that the effort would be cost effective.
There are plenty of people after a difficulty increase, many of which have quit the game because of lack of challenge for such a long time, 2 years is too much. People who have money, and would spend it if they didnt think what they are buying is always going to be useless to what they/we already have.
Yes i do believe it is very unlikely anyone on the Cryptic team even knows HOW to code better AI at this point as the majority of the true development team are far long and gone.
I suggest stat changes (and maybe even power additions) because it would be the easiest to implement.
The only real challenge a full team of 5 freeforms has really gotten is Teliosaurus (before she was nerfed), Haloween Doom Lord (before he got nerfed) and Shadow Colossus with no Mega-Ds (the only one still able to be played currently that hasnt been nerfed into the ground by complaints by AT's and weak builds)
I would expect a 'Mastervillain' to be something that is threatening to a player. Jack Fool for example is a perfect example of a threatening enemy.
I am not against adding such a level. I'd like better AI, but let's face it, we are unlikely to get it.
Agreed. But we don't need smarter AI to get improved mob behavior. As i said Mob groups designed with the trinity in mind will go a long way. Its not that the mobs aren't smart enough, its that they don't have a diverse enough set of tools and cant support each-other in a group.
EX: The Tsoo sorcerers from the late COX had teleporting ability, heals, and a PBAOE repel, with accuracy debuff. These guys didn't hit very hard, but as support mobs they didn't need to, because they were grouped with other mobs designed specifically for dps.
The Tsoo sorcerers were support mobs and when they did their jobs, they made the whole mobs more "challenging" without the need for complex AI (they operated on a much older version of the Cryptic engine).
I Admit that even this change is unlikely, even though Robobo showed interest in this kind of change back in the day.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
All that said, are there enough people who want it to justify the effort to produce it? Also, a lot of effort has been expended in this thread to convince forumites. I have seen zero herein that would help a developer prove to management that the effort would be cost effective.
Thats not a fair argument against adding difficulty, just as its not a fair argument against the foundry, or a new zone or ect. This game just doesn't have the funds to give the players what they want.
The only thing the bean counters in management will approve of is something that can be sold in the Z-store, but that doesn't mean that morar Z-store stuff is all the game needs.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Agreed. But we don't need smarter AI to get improved mob behavior. As i said Mob groups designed with the trinity in mind will go a long way. Its not that the mobs aren't smart enough, its that they don't have a diverse enough set of tools and cant support each-other in a group.
This^
I don't even expect smarter AI for much the same reasons that have already been stated. But just giving mobs a more diverse set of tools alone should provide adequate challenge and more importantly, interesting gameplay, without bumping up difficulty to levels that are unmanageable by more casual players.
We already have some of those in some Viper and Argent mobs. We just need more of those in other mob groups and more variety of support-specific mobs capable of granting buffs for enemies, de-buffing PCs and/or healing mobs (just setup some rules for them not to spam heals to the point where mobs never die), and tank mobs with actual taking abilities such as blocks and crippling challenge.
Agreed. But we don't need smarter AI to get improved mob behavior. As i said Mob groups designed with the trinity in mind will go a long way. Its not that the mobs aren't smart enough, its that they don't have a diverse enough set of tools and cant support each-other in a group.
EX: The Tsoo sorcerers from the late COX had teleporting ability, heals, and a PBAOE repel, with accuracy debuff. These guys didn't hit very hard, but as support mobs they didn't need to, because they were grouped with other mobs designed specifically for dps.
The Tsoo sorcerers were support mobs and when they did their jobs, they made the whole mobs more "challenging" without the need for complex AI (they operated on a much older version of the Cryptic engine).
I Admit that even this change is unlikely, even though Robobo showed interest in this kind of change back in the day.
Agreed. There are SOME mobs in CO which have supporting members on the mob side.
Examples are The Elder Worms, The Gadroon. Elderworms have lower level/low HP healers who can either shield or heal other members using Psionic Reflection Shield and Empathic Healing. Gadroon have access to fairly potent shielding in some capacity or another.
I think these sorts of mechanics can be capitalized on for certain mobs. A couple examples could be as follows.
PSI: With the new telepathic powers comming out soon (very little ppl know about this :O). I personally would LOVE to see the mob activity of PSI to be upgraded. After all they are mentalists. Some things I'd like to see from PSI.
Inductee - Should stay largely the same but have access to Ego Blast in some capacity. Neophyte - Their Psionic Surges should carry either NTTG or the flight debuff legacy devices have. Proctor - Perhaps more than just an energy builder TK Blade slice, incorporate more damaging attacks which are displayed early on. Hypnotist - Buff their damage, make their placates more powerful and allow for them to heal others whilst placated and when not placated. Perhaps some interrupt powers? Slicer - Allow their attacks to do crushing and ego damage and gain access to a PSI like Shadow Strike (no where near as powerful) which does high ego damage, like 1k ego damage or something. Agent - Add an Ego damage version of Thunderclap perhaps?
I think mobs need to attack with increased regularity, instead of standing around then attacking like they are taking "turns". They should be as mobile and active as heroes in terms of power usage.
PSI: With the new telepathic powers comming out soon (very little ppl know about this :O). I personally would LOVE to see the mob activity of PSI to be upgraded. After all they are mentalists. Some things I'd like to see from PSI.
Exactly.
The new pattern under Stokeman is that power sets are reviewed to coincide with thematic releases. We should add mob reviews into this cycle. If mobs were reviewed gradually over time with every thing else, it wouldn't become a huge resource sucking project.
We already had something like this when Heavy Weapons was added as a power set and given to NPCs around the same time.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Exactly.
The new pattern under Stokeman is that power sets are reviewed to coincide with thematic releases. We should add mob reviews into this cycle. If mobs were reviewed gradually over time with every thing else, it wouldn't become a huge resource sucking project.
We already had something like this when Heavy Weapons was added as a power set and given to NPCs around the same time.
I was also hoping for an event on a zone wide scale.
They are my favorite villain group, I'd love it if Psimon had somehow escaped and PSI and The Elder Worms were at war across MC OR working together to rid the world of weakminded heroes :biggrin:
Even if it means that heroes have to forge an alliance with some villain groups like VIPER or Argent or DEMON just to keep themselves alive.
I would TOTALLY back this idea/event. But it seems extremely unlikely.
Thats not a fair argument against adding difficulty, just as its not a fair argument against the foundry, or a new zone or ect.
Oh, it's a fair argument against all of them. Difference being, there's larger appeal to everything you mentioned here. What you list here is a fair argument, but not a factual one in the context of zones or foundry.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Thats not a fair argument against adding difficulty, just as its not a fair argument against the foundry, or a new zone or ect. This game just doesn't have the funds to give the players what they want.
The only thing the bean counters in management will approve of is something that can be sold in the Z-store, but that doesn't mean that moar Z-store stuff is all the game needs.
Agreed. Ultimately, it comes down to offering subscribers something for their money, or maybe tempting a larger number of silvers who will play and buy something if something new is added. What we are fighting there, though, is the F2P industry, which has makes money by providing as little as possible for players to do, and maxing out stuff for players to buy.
I wasn't arguing against adding difficulty, I was trying to focus on giving the devs an argument to take to the decision-makers that might actually work. Personally, other than charging for access to Supra-Elite, I got nothing.
_________________________________________________
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
I am not against adding such a level. I'd like better AI, but let's face it, we are unlikely to get it.
All that said, are there enough people who want it to justify the effort to produce it? Also, a lot of effort has been expended in this thread to convince forumites. I have seen zero herein that would help a developer prove to management that the effort would be cost effective.
I don't think the developers actually talk to management... mostly because management doesn't return their calls unless the answering machine message mentions NWO.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
The word 'exploit' seems to grab their attention pretty well
Joke for the oldies here on the forum
The easy difficulty in Elite mode is an exploit! This exploit needs to be fixed and difficulty tripled back to how it was quickly before everyone finds out about this exploit and exploit it!
The word 'exploit' seems to grab their attention pretty well
Joke for the oldies here on the forum
The easy difficulty in Elite mode is an exploit! This exploit needs to be fixed and difficulty tripled back to how it was quickly before everyone finds out about this exploit and exploit it!
Dont do it man its not worth it! :O
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
The word 'exploit' seems to grab their attention pretty well
Joke for the oldies here on the forum
The easy difficulty in Elite mode is an exploit! This exploit needs to be fixed and difficulty tripled back to how it was quickly before everyone finds out about this exploit and exploit it!
Well if the devs got it together to actually give a higher diff level I would be a bit disappointed if all that came out of it was more health. Alternates I've proposed do not for the most part have much to do with AI, some more debuffs, more mobs and slightly beefier ones. Giving 2 or more big bosses instead of just one. The sneak up behind players mob idea is I guess AI but not unfeasible I think. And of course that old select your instance scale thing. Would require a bit of GUI tweaking but that's it.
Sigh on a more personal note: Can someone give me a rundown on how to take care of the mobs before I get to the Endbringers. I have got Daikai whatever it is but flew around above and LA'd the power things down and never took on the big baddies (too many mobs around). I'd like to have a go at these guys without listening to that pathetic wretch Doc D whilst I'm doing it.
_____________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
About the @handle - it's a long story.
Profound quote.. "I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing."
Originally Posted by mijjestic: Ultimately, though, MMO players throwing stones at each other in this fashion is basically one nerd pointing and laughing at another nerd whose glasses are thicker.
Well if the devs got it together to actually give a higher diff level I would be a bit disappointed if all that came out of it was more health. Alternates I've proposed do not for the most part have much to do with AI, some more debuffs, more mobs and slightly beefier ones. Giving 2 or more big bosses instead of just one. The sneak up behind players mob idea is I guess AI but not unfeasible I think. And of course that old select your instance scale thing. Would require a bit of GUI tweaking but that's it.
Sigh on a more personal note: Can someone give me a rundown on how to take care of the mobs before I get to the Endbringers. I have got Daikai whatever it is but flew around above and LA'd the power things down and never took on the big baddies (too many mobs around). I'd like to have a go at these guys without listening to that pathetic wretch Doc D whilst I'm doing it.
Then prepare to be disappointed.
I seriously doubt we will see anything more than the options that were in COH for difficulty. Which had absolutely nothing to do with anything you posted.
From a REALISTIC standpoint I just don't see anything advanced coming if they ever do intend to tackle difficulty.
And I'd prefer if they focused on the other 13232323 things they've been neglecting for CO in the past year instead of yet another mini revamp of the game.
Difficulty (without new content) is the DEAD LAST thing the CO DEV (notice I said DEV not devs) should be tackling right now.
Just saying.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
Heavy reliance on the queuing system as of late means we won't be seeing the difficulty slider come into play anytime soon. In fact, the way the Q's spoon-feed the game to you can only mean one thing...they're trying to make us into kobe beef (or we're already that and don't know it yet).
This would have been some very excellent advice for a lot of game developers in the past, actually. After all, Sega would still be making consoles right now if they would have gone "there is no way in HELL we can make the 32X work, considering there was not even a market for the Sega CD."
I know people that worked for Sega and you're right and wrong. The problem they had was that they kept coming out with more and more new hardware while leaving their old hardware with very few good games to play which resulted in people not wanting to buy the new hardware they came out with since there wasn't much reason to think it'd get the support it needed.
Huh...
Now that I think about it, that kinda sounds like Cryptic and the way they've pretty much abandoned CO, doesn't it?
I disagree with SOME of your points on this thread but I salute the fact you stick to your guns. O.O<
Without anything to do, i do what any other gamer would do, go repeat some content or farm for a device, but if that content is too easy, you can see why i have had no choice but to tell it like it is.
It's like kaiserin said really, a LOT of people have left BECAUSE of the game having no more content additions, and the super-easy difficulty of the game has drawn away all interest of repeating content. Customers who were regular purchasers.
I have nothing to lose by bringing this up again and again, until a change is made which will bring them back to the game.
The ease of difficulty effects people in many ways, look at A.R.C supergroup for example, used to be the most PvE 'organised' (not random-invite overpopulated and eventless) SG in the game. It has mostly desintegrated now because 2 years is just absurd amounts of time without content or challenge. They've had to resort to doing only Costume Contests for almost two years...that right there is an incredible amount of dedication, and waiting.
Then everything on the Calender goes blank...and a tonne of A.R.C have had no choice but to abandon the game.
Im not even going to begin telling you guys how much that sucked, but i too had to take a step away for 6 months.
I come back and nothing has changed...no, only thing that has happened is the opposite of what this game needs, players have been buffed again, then again, and even further with devices...the game has truly gone as corrupt as to submit children to gambling addiction on lockboxes...this is something in stories that normally the villain who played a fat black-suit businessman with a briefcase with the personality of a sick monster would do. But its happened just like in those horror stories!
Hey kids, spin the wheel.
Regardless of all thats happened, CO have a final chance to bring back customers with difficulty, and id ask for content but if that mission in the sky (where vehicles make you weaker) is all the content they can come up with in a year then it's like i said, i have no choice but to bang my head against this wall until it crumbles regardless of the small Anti-Snake group of topic griefers, because iv nothing to lose, and i believe it is the right thing to do to get my old friends playing again.
All i see most of the old groups doing right now is sat in the middle of Ren Cen IF theyre ever logged in, then they log out... cant help but feel sorry, like i didnt try hard enough to give them something challenging to do.
I have nothing to lose by bringing this up again and again, until a change is made which will bring them back to the game.
<<snip>>
All i see most of the old groups doing right now is sat in the middle of Ren Cen IF theyre ever logged in, then they log out... cant help but feel sorry, like i didnt try hard enough to give them something challenging to do.
I think this is a very important point and that you don't take it far enough and this is why:
I come back and nothing has changed...no, only thing that has happened is the opposite of what this game needs, players have been buffed again, then again, and even further with devices...the game has truly gone as corrupt as to submit children to gambling addiction on lockboxes
Sure the discussion has been had before but the game is constantly changing so the discussion is WORTH bringing up again and again in the future. As long as the game keeps evolving discussions of difficulty, especially top-end difficulty, will always be relevant. New loot (lockbox stuff) and new power changes make it relevant. Even if somehow everyone agreed today on the best course of action and the devs implemented it... by next spring it would still be relevant again because some patch would change things up.
I think that saying it's an old topic is just as pointless as forgetting that the discussion is only about the top difficulty levels.
And that said, I know that many have said AI changes are best but least likely. Myself I like the idea of a variety of powers and challenges rather than just boosted numbers. The devs might say it's great but too hard or too expensive. That's all the more reason for the community to push for doing it right. Otherwise we'll get what happened with vehicles: not what we asked for. Don't settle, don't ask the devs to do it wrong or simple or cheap. At least try for what will make the best improvement to the game. If the devs cut corners or cheap out or take the low road, let that be their call.
Alright! Finally read through every post in this thread up to this point and there are some things I want to say.
First off. I am a new player. Those of you in this thread that refer to new players, just stop. You don't speak for them. You don't know what they want and you certainly don't know what they're capable of game wise. I know this because I'm one of them.
So far in this game I have soloed Teleios's Tower, Burial Cave, and Moreau's Lab. I did them all on elite as soon as the missions sending you to those places are available so... 3 or 4 levels below the level of the instance.
Right now I'm running around on a level 40 that uses SC gear with no mods. I'm obliterating everything I come across. I also still have 3 powers to pick on this toon and 17 advantage points to spend. I tried to solo Shadow Destroyer one day for the hell of it after everyone on the Q run of NemCon I'd been on left the map and if I hadn't gotten bored and stopped paying attention, I probably could have done it.
I've only been here since September so it's not like I've had the time to learn the ins and outs of maximizing a build and you know what? I don't need to. The character I've been currently playing is proof of that. I play theme builds that seem fun and that's more than enough to steamroll everything found here.
Not only am I a new player to this game, I'm part of a rather large influx of new players. I know who these people are, I know what it is they think is fun to do in games, and I actively watch for them to find new arrivals and put them in touch with other friends that have shown up and you know what the most frequent question is I'm asked by them?
"How come no one teams on this game?"
To this, they get the same response from I and others that talk to them.
"No one teams because there's no reason to. The whole game can be soloed even at max dif."
Now I know someone's going to be tempted to quote this post and say something along the lines of, "But the casual players..." so before they do, I am talking about casual players. These aren't power gamers that sit down and min/max their toons until they're digital gods. These are people that when they get home from work want to kick back, log in, and have some fun running around the game with friends.
Some of them have already quit this game. Why? Boredom. Yes. Boredom. Apparently some of you think it's amazing to be able to grind the same content over and over without ever having to worry about whether or not you can find people to run it with but, the people that are have been arriving, and will continue to, are a whole other animal. A much more social one and they think that is boring. Especially after doing it a couple times.
Teaming creates an ever changing dynamic. If you don't believe me, just look at the nerdrage that goes on over alerts. Some of you will try to claim that's about lowbies and, to an extent, it is. It's also about having to work with others. When you're dependant on others to help you accomplish your goals you never know how things will go unless you team with the same people so often that you're like clockwork. You can run the same content over and over and it'll be different every time because you were working with different people each time. Keep in mind when I say this that I'm primarily a solo player. I prefer chatting away in tells and on the few channels I'm on while exploring and figuring out how to make game breaking toons so it's not like I'm saying this for my own self interest.
The problem with teaming on this game is that there's absolutely no reason to. In fact, you're punished for teaming by having to split the drops with other players. Some players will team up because they dislike soling that much. Many others need some sort of incentive to. Many of the new players aren't teaming, and from the looks of things, it's pretty rare among established players too outside of alerts. Bascailly you need to be challenged and that needs to be done by making the game hard enough that people actually want to team.
This is how I think it should happen...
Support characters. I know some villain groups have them but, every group in this game should have a NPC capable of buffing, debuffing, mezzing, or healing.
I do think that tanker NPCs should be left out unless their version of crippling challenge doesn't force you to target them. I've fought things that doe this in other games and it's not fun. It's a frustrating annoyance. Especially if there's a lot of them.
I also think the scaling of the difficulty should be looked at across the board. Normal should probably stay how it is since that should be scaled to what a casual player using an AT can do when paying at least a little attention but, all the difficulty levels above that should at least be looked at.
I think the levels of difficulty should work like this.
Normal = 1 AT being played casually.
Difficult = 2-3 ATs
Hard = 5 ATs or one decently built freeform
Very Hard = 2-3 freeforms
Elite = 5 freeforms
I'm against the idea of just adding to their HP and think that instead they should get a buff to their powers, including damage mitigation abilities and support powers. I think increasing difficulty in this manner while adding support characters to enemy groups would increase the challenge to all levels of difficulty without crippling players running ATs by themself.
I also think higher levels of difficulty should recieve more rewards. Please note that I'm not asking for better rewards, just more. Increase the chances for drops and give more resources per kill. It's taking longer to get through the mobs with increased risk. Players do deserve some sort of additional reward for that after all.
As a new player coming from the same place she did...
Hell I have more fun in this game LOSING to Gravitar than waltzing around content that can't even touch me.
Many of the new players coming do enjoy challenge... sure we moan and complain when we encounter it, but then the sense of accomplishment once it is mastered is one of the best things ever. Examples of this for those in the know: Apex TF, Tin Mage TF, Incarnate Trials.
As a new player coming from the same place she did...
Hell I have more fun in this game LOSING to Gravitar than waltzing around content that can't even touch me.
Many of the new players coming do enjoy challenge... sure we moan and complain when we encounter it, but then the sense of accomplishment once it is mastered is one of the best things ever. Examples of this for those in the know: Apex TF, Tin Mage TF, Incarnate Trials.
This. Gravitar is a beautiful fight, and I love it...even when I spend most of the time eating pavement. THAT'S difficulty that I can appreciate.
But just giving them more HP/damage just means I have to hit them a lot more...yay.
Many of the new players coming do enjoy challenge... sure we moan and complain when we encounter it, but then the sense of accomplishment once it is mastered is one of the best things ever. Examples of this for those in the know: Apex TF, Tin Mage TF, Incarnate Trials.
For me it was beating the hell out of Statesman one on one in Lord Recluse Strike Force, soloing half of the Lambda trial (That was on accident. I turned the wrong way and didn't even realize I was seperated from the rest of the league until I'd gone full circle and sandwiched the last mob between me and them), tanking Seige and Nightstar at the same time, and going toe to toe with Neo Pendragon without any backup.
All of that was done on a Katana/Invulnerability scrapper, two powersets that a lot of people said were terrible when I made that character. :biggrin:
Alright! Finally read through every post in this thread up to this point and there are some things I want to say.
First off. I am a new player. Those of you in this thread that refer to new players, just stop. You don't speak for them. You don't know what they want and you certainly don't know what they're capable of game wise. I know this because I'm one of them.
So far in this game I have soloed Teleios's Tower, Burial Cave, and Moreau's Lab. I did them all on elite as soon as the missions sending you to those places are available so... 3 or 4 levels below the level of the instance.
Right now I'm running around on a level 40 that uses SC gear with no mods. I'm obliterating everything I come across. I also still have 3 powers to pick on this toon and 17 advantage points to spend. I tried to solo Shadow Destroyer one day for the hell of it after everyone on the Q run of NemCon I'd been on left the map and if I hadn't gotten bored and stopped paying attention, I probably could have done it.
I've only been here since September so it's not like I've had the time to learn the ins and outs of maximizing a build and you know what? I don't need to. The character I've been currently playing is proof of that. I play theme builds that seem fun and that's more than enough to steamroll everything found here.
Not only am I a new player to this game, I'm part of a rather large influx of new players. I know who these people are, I know what it is they think is fun to do in games, and I actively watch for them to find new arrivals and put them in touch with other friends that have shown up and you know what the most frequent question is I'm asked by them?
"How come no one teams on this game?"
To this, they get the same response from I and others that talk to them.
"No one teams because there's no reason to. The whole game can be soloed even at max dif."
Now I know someone's going to be tempted to quote this post and say something along the lines of, "But the casual players..." so before they do, I am talking about casual players. These aren't power gamers that sit down and min/max their toons until they're digital gods. These are people that when they get home from work want to kick back, log in, and have some fun running around the game with friends.
Some of them have already quit this game. Why? Boredom. Yes. Boredom. Apparently some of you think it's amazing to be able to grind the same content over and over without ever having to worry about whether or not you can find people to run it with but, the people that are have been arriving, and will continue to, are a whole other animal. A much more social one and they think that is boring. Especially after doing it a couple times.
Teaming creates an ever changing dynamic. If you don't believe me, just look at the nerdrage that goes on over alerts. Some of you will try to claim that's about lowbies and, to an extent, it is. It's also about having to work with others. When you're dependant on others to help you accomplish your goals you never know how things will go unless you team with the same people so often that you're like clockwork. You can run the same content over and over and it'll be different every time because you were working with different people each time. Keep in mind when I say this that I'm primarily a solo player. I prefer chatting away in tells and on the few channels I'm on while exploring and figuring out how to make game breaking toons so it's not like I'm saying this for my own self interest.
The problem with teaming on this game is that there's absolutely no reason to. In fact, you're punished for teaming by having to split the drops with other players. Some players will team up because they dislike soling that much. Many others need some sort of incentive to. Many of the new players aren't teaming, and from the looks of things, it's pretty rare among established players too outside of alerts. Bascailly you need to be challenged and that needs to be done by making the game hard enough that people actually want to team.
This is how I think it should happen...
Support characters. I know some villain groups have them but, every group in this game should have a NPC capable of buffing, debuffing, mezzing, or healing.
I do think that tanker NPCs should be left out unless their version of crippling challenge doesn't force you to target them. I've fought things that doe this in other games and it's not fun. It's a frustrating annoyance. Especially if there's a lot of them.
I also think the scaling of the difficulty should be looked at across the board. Normal should probably stay how it is since that should be scaled to what a casual player using an AT can do when paying at least a little attention but, all the difficulty levels above that should at least be looked at.
I think the levels of difficulty should work like this.
Normal = 1 AT being played casually.
Difficult = 2-3 ATs
Hard = 5 ATs or one decently built freeform
Very Hard = 2-3 freeforms
Elite = 5 freeforms
I'm against the idea of just adding to their HP and think that instead they should get a buff to their powers, including damage mitigation abilities and support powers. I think increasing difficulty in this manner while adding support characters to enemy groups would increase the challenge to all levels of difficulty without crippling players running ATs by themself.
I also think higher levels of difficulty should recieve more rewards. Please note that I'm not asking for better rewards, just more. Increase the chances for drops and give more resources per kill. It's taking longer to get through the mobs with increased risk. Players do deserve some sort of additional reward for that after all.
Okay. I'm done. Sorry for the wall of text.
You mean to say that you're a self-confessed casual player who don't actually expect to steam-roll over everything in the game like easy pie and actually desire to be challenged?
Gee whiz and I was called ignorant and deluded in the past for my views on how being a casual player doesn't automatically mean wanting to breeze through everything on an easy difficulty. :rolleyes:
You mean to say that you're a self-confessed casual player who don't actually expect to steam roll over everything in the game like easy pie and actually desire to be challenged?
Gee whiz and I was called ignorant and deluded in the past for my views on how being a casual player doesn't automatically mean wanting to breeze through everything to on an easy difficulty. :rolleyes:
The term "casual player" can be defined in different ways.
The term "casual player" can be defined in different ways.
Yeah, some of us just like to play wearing a cardigan sweater and no pants. It doesn't mean we like it ez, we just like to be soooo casual when we play.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Hoooolly ****e... I wasn't even around for those TFs, but I know that they were fairly harder than the old ones... Or rather, as my friend put it, about the same power level, but smarter made.
That's hardcore, what kind of IOs were you running on that? My soft capped Katana/SR went Mano-e-Mano (well, tanked anyway) with two of the AVs in the STF, but SR was quite a bit easier to get crazy performance out of than Invuln.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
EDIT: Y'know what, nevermind. I made a promise to myself to stop arguing even indirectly with some of the dullards in this thread, and I'm going to keep it. I've said my protest, it remains.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
EDIT: Y'know what, nevermind. I made a promise to myself to stop arguing even indirectly with some of the dullards in this thread, and I'm going to keep it. I've said my protest, it remains.
Thank god. Hell, thank all the gods, even the foreign ones.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Don't settle, don't ask the devs to do it wrong or simple or cheap. At least try for what will make the best improvement to the game. If the devs cut corners or cheap out or take the low road, let that be their call.
It's like kaiserin said really, a LOT of people have left BECAUSE of the game having no more content additions, and the super-easy difficulty of the game has drawn away all interest of repeating content. Customers who were regular purchasers.
First off. I am a new player ... I've only been here since September ... Not only am I a new player to this game, I'm part of a rather large influx of new players ... "How come no one teams on this game?" ... I am talking about casual players ... Some of them have already quit this game. Why? Boredom ...
I wanted to excise these three points out of the rather longish posts they are ensconced in, because they are important. Gavin's because that is what has happened too often in CO, Snakes's and Arimikami's because this is the only thing that might actually prompt action by management.
edit: because I don't want to provide derail opportunities.
_________________________________________________
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
I wanted to excise these three points out of the rather longish posts they are ensconced in, because they are important. Gavin's because that is what has happened too often in CO, Snakes's and Arimikami's because this is the only thing that might actually prompt action by management.
I think the biggest mistake Cryptic made was not taking action to prepare for the inevitable influx of folks from CoX, many of who have been throwing money at that game for years, and would probably throw money at CO if they found the experience to their liking. Anyone who has any sense of what CoX was like would have known that CO does not in the slightest compare to CoX where teaming is concerned.
Which makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE WHATSOEVER and in fact is an argument AGAINST what Snake is going on about, seeing as CoX was by large and far as easy as CO was once you got a character in SOs, and largely didn't see content that could be called remotely challenging outside of a few high level instances that all in all were about as hard as ours.
Most of the places where CoX was harder, were largely circumstantial, I. E. the difficulty slider over there having a more widespread effect, early levels being harder due to a different gear and resource management curve, once you filter all that out you had a game where you can faceroll all the mobs you want as long as you're playing something with some defense.
Let me put this in perspective: We had something basically called the Scrapper Olympics: It was basically who could solo AVs and crap like Rikti Pylons the fastest or otherwise best. This was considered a good thing, and was a much loved past time of the games better players. That's pretty much the same thing as soloing Legendaries, Mega-Ds and even Cosmics.
The reason there is no teaming here, has NOTHING to do with difficulty. The cause is the same one I've been pointing out since launch: The teaming experience SUCKS in CO. In CoX, people would team for the most piss easy missions in the game, radio missions, just because teaming up was easy, fun and rewarding. There was barely any futzing around with the UI, no ensuring everyone is on the same page in terms of missions so they get good XP, just team up, set a mission, and go.
If management wants to shoot themselves in the foot, wasting time on a half assed implementation of this sort of thing this is a great place to start.
Yeah, I couldn't just let that slide, sorry.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
I think the levels of difficulty should work like this.
Normal = 1 AT being played casually.
Difficult = 2-3 ATs
Hard = 5 ATs or one decently built freeform
Very Hard = 2-3 freeforms
Elite = 5 freeforms
Arimikami gets 10 points!
I agree with this with all of my passion for CO. The difference between difficulties need to be far more widespread, Normal doesnt need changing, the differences between normal and elite are like, tiny differences. It matters to AT's when you change the difficulty up because its more noticeable, but if youre freeform (compleeeete other side to this game), you kinda find it hard to notice when you get decent at building even 'themed' builds.
You mean to say that you're a self-confessed casual player who don't actually expect to steam-roll over everything in the game like easy pie and actually desire to be challenged?
Gee whiz and I was called ignorant and deluded in the past for my views on how being a casual player doesn't automatically mean wanting to breeze through everything on an easy difficulty. :rolleyes:
Well, I hate to break it to ya but, you are... at least a little. I never said I was a casual player. Just that I'm part of the community that a large number of casual players are coming here from and know them as well as talk to them regularly. It also means you lack reading comprehension, especially considering you quoted the whole damn post and somehow that was all you could think to say.
Next time why not try looking over what's written and actually think about it instead of jumping at the chance to sling mud?
Most of the places where CoX was harder, were largely circumstantial, I. E. the difficulty slider over there having a more widespread effect,
Which is what is being requested here, a broader range of effect from the difficulty slider.
I disagree with the nature of how that is requested to be implemented, and doubt very heavily that Cryptic is capable of more than that, but essentially the OP is asking for just what you describe...a broader range of difficulty settings because currently the difference between the lowest and the highest setting is not particularly great.
Hoooolly ****e... I wasn't even around for those TFs, but I know that they were fairly harder than the old ones... Or rather, as my friend put it, about the same power level, but smarter made.
That's hardcore, what kind of IOs were you running on that? My soft capped Katana/SR went Mano-e-Mano (well, tanked anyway) with two of the AVs in the STF, but SR was quite a bit easier to get crazy performance out of than Invuln.
They were actually quite a bit harder and playing smart wouldn't really help you. For one thing, a very large portion of the damage in the earlier trials was psi.If you played then you know that psi was the chink in most armors. There was also the fact that everything in trials was level 54 at the least. Put those two things together and most melees would crumple like wet tissue paper under a sustained assault.
With Statesman, the big problem for me was pulling him away from everybody else and killing him before the others noticed and tried to help me, thinking I needed it.
As far as the build went, there was nothing too fancy in it. I had a couple sets of obliteration slotted into my PBAoEs since I needed the recharge and S/L defense but, that was the most expensive set I used. I just figured out how to softcap an invuln against S/L damage which was what most of the game was and then I got my S/L damage resistance to cap. After that it was just a matter of piling in recharge so I could use dull pain as often as possible.
I'm actually a little impressed that you managed to do well on that with a SR. I had a SS/SR brute I loved running around on so I know what a pita some of it could be with things like autohits that ignored defense and Positron's debuffs.
Which makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE WHATSOEVER and in fact is an argument AGAINST what Snake is going on about, seeing as CoX was by large and far as easy as CO was once you got a character in SOs, and largely didn't see content that could be called remotely challenging outside of a few high level instances that all in all were about as hard as ours.
Most of the places where CoX was harder, were largely circumstantial, I. E. the difficulty slider over there having a more widespread effect, early levels being harder due to a different gear and resource management curve, once you filter all that out you had a game where you can faceroll all the mobs you want as long as you're playing something with some defense.
I'm going to have to call you on this. It's not really that accurate and you know it unless you've been gone long enough to forget a lot about that game or went out of your way to only fight things that were easymode for whatever toon you were playing at the time. From early levels all the way to level cap, players were constantly being challenged unless they specifically avoided those challenges and a lot of that was due to the various debuffers that the NPC factions had. Here's a few examples...
Circle of Thorns had characters that could debuff player accuracy, placate the players so they couldn't fight back, mez the players, and has autohit PBAoEs, rendering one of the two forms of mitigation completely useless.
Vahzilok did toxic damage, one of the two least resisted forms of damage in the game.
Clockwork did electrical damage which would drain your energy bar. They were effective enough at it that there were times when entire teams were reduced to using only brawl because it was the only attack that didn't cost energy.
Longbow had Wardens, one of the most troublesome types of characters in the game because all you knew was they had powers and it varied what powers they'd have from one Warden to the next. It was pretty common for them to have Cold, Sonic, or Radiiation powers, some of the most vicious debuffing powersets in the game.
Tsoo had sorcerers, teleporting, debuffing healers that had a PBAoE KB
Between it's various NPCs, you could be sure that you'd face every type of damage available in the game when going against Arachnos meaning that even the toughest tanks were sure to have to deal with something they were weak against.
Freakshow could self rez so after you beat them, they'd get up off the floor and jump you from behind while you were dealing with another group. They also had Super Shockers which could rip the energy from the bars of entire groups of players in a matter of moments.
Rikti did psi damage, the other least resisted damage type in the game. They also had attack drones that could see through any and all forms of stealth, no matter how many layers of it you had.
Almost everything I've listed are groups you'd have to face from level one all the way up to level 50.
Let me put this in perspective: We had something basically called the Scrapper Olympics: It was basically who could solo AVs and crap like Rikti Pylons the fastest or otherwise best. This was considered a good thing, and was a much loved past time of the games better players. That's pretty much the same thing as soloing Legendaries, Mega-Ds and even Cosmics.
This right here shows how long you've been gone from that game. Soloing Rikti Pylons was not a much loved passtime. Neither was soloing AVs and neither of those were comparable to soloing Legendaries or Cosmics. That particular feat was much closer to accomplishments like soloing Giant Monsters such as Lusca. Even then, there were still things in the game that could never be soloed, like Hamidon, and it wasn't unsoloable because of lazy design tactics like gating Hamidon behind requiring a certain number of players. It was because of the game's mechanics. It was simply impossible for any one player to ever resist that much damage, do that much healing, layer that many mezzes, and do that much melee and ranged damage (Hamidon required both) but, you were welcome to try. I know because I did and I faceplanted hard each and every time I did. It was still fun to try though.
The reason there is no teaming here, has NOTHING to do with difficulty. The cause is the same one I've been pointing out since launch: The teaming experience SUCKS in CO. In CoX, people would team for the most piss easy missions in the game, radio missions, just because teaming up was easy, fun and rewarding. There was barely any futzing around with the UI, no ensuring everyone is on the same page in terms of missions so they get good XP, just team up, set a mission, and go.
If management wants to shoot themselves in the foot, wasting time on a half assed implementation of this sort of thing this is a great place to start.
If this was really the case, people wouldn't team on other games that use similar teaming arrangements and division of spoils. There was the fact that unlike in CO, the majority of your XP in CoH came from defeating mobs while it's from completing missions here so, I will give you that but, to say that the reason no one teams here has nothing to do with difficulty is dishonest. I have no issues with teaming but, I don't because there's no reason to and again, you're actually punished for teaming on this game.
Well, I hate to break it to ya but, you are... at least a little
I never said I was a casual player. Just that I'm part of the community that a large number of casual players are coming here from and know them as well as talk to them regularly. It also means you lack reading comprehension, especially considering you quoted the whole damn post and somehow that was all you could think to say.
Next time why not try looking over what's written and actually think about it instead of jumping at the chance to sling mud?
/shrugs
Seems that I have struck a nerve somehow so I'm going to try to clarify things.
Right now I'm running around on a level 40 that uses SC gear with no mods. I'm obliterating everything I come across. I also still have 3 powers to pick on this toon and 17 advantage points to spend. I tried to solo Shadow Destroyer one day for the hell of it after everyone on the Q run of NemCon I'd been on left the map and if I hadn't gotten bored and stopped paying attention, I probably could have done it.
I've only been here since September so it's not like I've had the time to learn the ins and outs of maximizing a build and you know what? I don't need to. The character I've been currently playing is proof of that. I play theme builds that seem fun and that's more than enough to steamroll everything found here.
You stated that you didn't learn the in and outs of min-maxing and also declared that you can get through the game fine without having to.
To me, that's the kind of trait a casual player has: A player who doesn't bother too much with figuring out the very best kind of configuration for powers/skills mechanics-wise so that they can perform at their very best, whether or not it's for the sake of keeping to a theme / concept. They just go along with whatever works and manage to have fun at the same time while being able to perform adequately.
You also stated that you're using gear without mods. I am to believe that it means optimizing your hero stats via mods is not important for you to get through the game fine.
You didn't actually say that you were a casual player, but seem to have given the impression that you were. I admit that I'm at fault for coming to that assumption.
Anyway it seems that you took offense, and that wasn't my intention. I did read through the post the first time and for the most part I agree with your points. It was my mistake quoting the whole post instead of addressing points selectively and I apologize if you feel that I was trivializing things and using it as an excuse to mud-sling. It's just that I've very frustratedly in another thread tried to explain my views on how being a casual player doesn't necessarily mean wanting content to have nothing but an easy difficulty and I got flamed to hell for it.
Seems that I have struck a nerve somehow so I'm going to try to clarify things.
You made the following points:
You stated that you didn't learn the in and outs of min-maxing and also declared that you can get through the game fine without having to.
To me, that's the kind of trait a casual player has: A player who doesn't bother too much with figuring out the very best kind of configuration for powers/skills mechanics-wise so that they can perform at their very best, whether or not it's for the sake of keeping to a theme / concept. They just go along with whatever works and manage to have fun at the same time while being able to perform adequately.
You also stated that you're using gear without mods. I am to believe that it means optimizing your hero stats via mods is not important for you to get through the game fine.
You didn't actually say that you were a casual player, but seem to have given the impression that you were. I admit that I'm at fault for coming to that assumption.
Anyway it seems that you took offense, and that wasn't my intention. I did read through the post the first time and for the most part I agree with your points. It was my mistake quoting the whole post instead of addressing points selectively and I apologize if you feel that I was trivializing things and using it as an excuse to mud-sling. It's just that I've very frustratedly in another thread tried to explain my views on how being a casual player doesn't necessarily mean wanting content to have nothing but an easy difficulty and I got flamed to hell for it.
Then I apologize for my response. The points I was trying to make in that post was that there's no reason to even bother trying to min/max on this game. It's so easy even on elite that it's really not needed. You can take pretty much any powers and slap them together and do just fine which is great for players that want to run on normal difficulty but, very very very bad for anyone looking to actually be challenged a little that is running on elite and I do agree with you. There's nothing that says someone that's a casual player can't want to be challenged. Games of all sorts are generally about accomplishment. If it takes no effort, time, or thought to accomplish something in a game then that game generally doesn't get played too often aside from make believe by little kids and even then, there is a desire to accomplish something which is why you end up with children playing cops and robbers with one yelling that they got someone and the other insisting they didn't.
If this was really the case, people wouldn't team on other games that use similar teaming arrangements and division of spoils. There was the fact that unlike in CO, the majority of your XP in CoH came from defeating mobs while it's from completing missions here so, I will give you that but, to say that the reason no one teams here has nothing to do with difficulty is dishonest. I have no issues with teaming but, I don't because there's no reason to and again, you're actually punished for teaming on this game.
As a COH player from beta, and a CO player from Alpha, the number one complaint I've heard about CO is that the setup for teaming sucked compared to COH. COH it was stupidly easy to setup a team and just go as Xoa stated. This had jack ****e to do with difficulty. It was simply easier to setup a pickup group in COH for 90% of that game's life.
Here, I don't team cause it's a ****ing pain in the **** to properly setup a team, so that everyone is on the same page. Has been since alpha. Alerts were and are a godsend for teaming in CO. It makes teaming in CO easy mode, which is why Alerts are waaaaay more popular now that teaming for regular missions. The ONLY time I see teams forming in CO for non-Alert stuff is to farm content or do the rare things like TT.
I'd rather solo than put up with the idiocy of the systems and UI used here for teaming.
Whether folks generally team here vs COH has jack ****e to do with difficulty. In COH everyone teamed for -1 missions and for the most difficult missions and content.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
As a COH player from beta, and a CO player from Alpha, the number one complaint I've heard about CO is that the setup for teaming sucked compared to COH. COH it was stupidly easy to setup a team and just go as Xoa stated. This had jack ****e to do with difficulty. It was simply easier to setup a pickup group in COH for 90% of that game's life.
Here, I don't team cause it's a ****ing pain in the **** to properly setup a team, so that everyone is on the same page. Has been since alpha. Alerts were and are a godsend for teaming in CO. It makes teaming in CO easy mode, which is why Alerts are waaaaay more popular now that teaming for regular missions. The ONLY time I see teams forming in CO for non-Alert stuff is to farm content or do the rare things like TT.
I'd rather solo than put up with the idiocy of the systems and UI used here for teaming.
Whether folks generally team here vs COH has jack ****e to do with difficulty. In COH everyone teamed for -1 missions and for the most difficult missions and content.
Getting a team going in CoH was a lot easier and more hassle-free that doing so in CO, I agree, but that's beside the point.
Teaming had alot to do with difficulty in CoH. CoH was strictly all about classic trinity gameplay. I remember my Blaster and Defender ATs having no chance solo'ing a good portion of the game. Solo'ing as either in a TF was unthinkable. Even as I souped up my Blaster with high-tiered IO sets and got my ranged attack evasion (I forgot the accurate name) to slightly above 50%, there was still no chance I was going to get through content unless I got into a team that had a good trinity setup in order.
When it comes to CO, a majority of the game can be solo'ed and I guess I can refer to regular missions since they do represent a good majority of the game. If a particular mission doesn't require a team to complete it then there's little incentive in wanting to form a team to do that mission unless it's purely for the social factor. Trinity isn't an important requirement for such missions. There isn't a need for loot distribution either if the mission is solo'ed. Simply put, the difficulty is trivial enough that there isn't a need for teaming.
So arimikami was right in saying that teaming has much to do with difficulty.
As a COH player from beta, and a CO player from Alpha, the number one complaint I've heard about CO is that the setup for teaming sucked compared to COH. COH it was stupidly easy to setup a team and just go as Xoa stated. This had jack ****e to do with difficulty. It was simply easier to setup a pickup group in COH for 90% of that game's life.
Here, I don't team cause it's a ****ing pain in the **** to properly setup a team, so that everyone is on the same page. Has been since alpha. Alerts were and are a godsend for teaming in CO. It makes teaming in CO easy mode, which is why Alerts are waaaaay more popular now that teaming for regular missions. The ONLY time I see teams forming in CO for non-Alert stuff is to farm content or do the rare things like TT.
I'd rather solo than put up with the idiocy of the systems and UI used here for teaming.
Whether folks generally team here vs COH has jack ****e to do with difficulty. In COH everyone teamed for -1 missions and for the most difficult missions and content.
It's not one or the other. It's both.
Teaming isn't nearly as complicated here as people make it out to be. The team lead sets the primary mission and it's shared with everyone else on the team. CoH didn't even have the option of sharing missions because there was no point to. You got the majority of your XP from kills, not mission turn ins and anyone in an instance for a sufficient amount of time got the XP bonus for mission completion.
So much for setting up teams being too difficult.
Now, if you're talking about finding teams, that's a whole other story and that is relevant to difficulty. I'm not even going to waste time going into it again. If you want to know why, go look at my initial post, comment on that, and then we'll debate it's merits or lack of.
Seriously, I had this long thing I was writing up until I got to the point where you called Freakshow hard. I erased it, and this is what you're getting instead:
The game you're referring to, is not the game you're describing. Nothing you said here is accurate in the least, at least not if you really knew what you were talking about. Almost none of the things you talk about were even a threat to a well built character between the levels of 25 and 50. The fact you used invuln also shows strongly here, because that set was BAD. Playing Invuln was akin to playing a PFF character here, possibly even old PFF. EVERYTHING seems harder than it really is. Blasters tended to have an easier time, just because their damage is higher and they had better options for Crowd Control sometimes.
What staggers me the most, is you call piss easy things like Vhaz and Freakshow hard, and you don't even mention, baring Arachnos, any of the ACTUALLY dangerous groups in the game, completely forgetting about Carnies, Malta and a few others. You don't even mention Redcaps, one of the pre-40 groups that- while they didn't do anything special- just hit REALLY HARD.
Do you EVEN REALIZE that nearly everything that made blueside CoT hard completely disappears past the 20s? You're hard pressed to find Ruin Mages in any CoT content at 50, I can't even remember any off hand, and they were the worst thing they had because in tight spaces they left the supports and blasters with no where they could stand to avoid getting juggled. Instead, they're replaced with these pitiful Death Mages, that were anything but deadly.
The list of things wrong with your post is so long, so uninformed, so incredibly unthoughtful that I can't be assed to really go through it. It's just terrible. I didn't even know the game half as well as I know CO, and I could mash my face on the keyboard through half the stuff you're calling hard here.
Which is what is being requested here, a broader range of effect from the difficulty slider.
No he isn't, at least not in the terms I'm talking of. Our difficulty slider is a little bit more shallow, as it has less notches on it, but what I'm refering to was that the difficulty slider in CoX effected almost everything because nearly the entire game went in an instanced direction.
Not to mention all that instanced content scaled to the players level to some extent, like APs. The real hillarious part that really gives a peek into how much of a snake oil salesman Snake is (See what I did there), is that a decent part of his video is him using big damage powers on a level 40 character against sub level 40 run of the mill unbuffed mobs.
I disagree with the nature of how that is requested to be implemented, and doubt very heavily that Cryptic is capable of more than that, but essentially the OP is asking for just what you describe...a broader range of difficulty settings because currently the difference between the lowest and the highest setting is not particularly great.
It's greater than you or many other people give it credit for. Elite TT is significantly harder than normal, because of the stacking buffs and level differences. That's another thing CoX was different about: Not only did enemies get buffed less drastically in general, players had stacking buffs and debuffs that make our best support characters in CO look sad.
Sure, the difficulty slider doesn't do jack for unbuffed crappy mobs like Psi, but things get a magnitude more drastic with every additional thing tacked onto them, which you'd know if you've ever experienced the wonder that is the hall of Brickbusters. While On Alert may have changed this a bit, prior to it someone had described it as a "Fireing squad capable of leveling a tank meant to waltz around the Teleiosaurus." Before cryptic should do ANYTHING involving difficulty, they need to learn how to CONTROL difficulty, because as it stands it's not that this game is too easy, it's that the difficulty of it is all over the gorram place with no rhyme or reason.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Xai, like I said, you either were gone from that game long enough that you forgot a lot, or you went out of your way to avoid anything even remotely resembling a challenge.
You commented on my choice of using invuln yet talked about preferring SR. My invuln was softcapped. You know that think SRs strive for? I had it on a toon that was never meant to have it in addtion to capped resistances and yes, I know people thought it was a bad set. Lots of people thought katana was terribad too. That was the point. I took two of what were viewed as the worst sets in the game and put them together to make a toon that steamrolled everything at +4/x8 difficulty.
Yes. Vahz could be difficult. They did Toxic damage which almost nothing in the game resisted and they had attacks that cut into your recharge.
Again, Freakshow would self rez and jump you from behind unless you waited to see if they'd get back up and Super Shockers could end drain an entire team in a matter of moments if you didn't make a point to kill them first and Super Shockers always self rezzed.
I haven't forgotten Malta or Carnies. The first group would end drain and the second had NPCs that did Psi damage. They also both had mezzers and Carnies had NPCs that would summon backup as well as phase but, seeing how strongly you're against any change to this game's difficulty, I figured you'd have a conniption if I even hinted at them including mobs capable of what a Carny Mistress could do.
Your choices in statements are showing your playstyle heavily by the way if you honestly think Redcaps were hard just because they hit hard and that Pylons were a celebrated activity. The problem with redcaps was that if you didn't defeat one quick enough it would disappear and respawn as the next higher tier of the group as well as their ability to debuff your accuracy. Pylons were a DPS test. Nothing more.
I'm fully aware of what made blue and redside difficult. I had dozens of level capped and fully IOed toons and ran every single arc in the game on multiple characters. Did you ever play redside? I'm guessing not and if you did, it was teamed on base dif.
There's no need to announce that you didn't know CoH very well. Some of your comments show it like claiming that all instanced content scaled to the player. Instanced missions did not scale to your level. They scaled to the level you were at when you picked up the mission. If you gained a level and wanted the mission to be your level, you had to drop and reacquire it and even that would only work to a limited extent. You also obviously never saw the updated CoT if you think ruin mages were the worst thing CoT had to offer and saying that you never saw them after a certain level proves that you didn't play redside. Mob composition was a bit different there from blueside.
Also gotta point out that I never said I viewed any of that has hard. I said it challenged players and it did. As far as what you say is challenging on this game goes... I pugged TT on Elite the very first time I ran it and ended up tanking Valerian on a PFF which according to you is absolutely terrible to use. So much for your supposed challenge. The difficulty of this game isn't all over the place though as you seem to think. It's just that Brickbusters do actually debuff which was the whole point of what I'd been saying. Glad to see you understood at least a little of what I was saying even though it took trying to prove someone else wrong to get you to admit it.
Comments
1) What do the "harder" difficulties consist of? The same mobs as normal with a buff that increases their health and damage. What are "tough" mobs? The same mobs as normal but they have 2x health and 2x damage. These "solutions" to difficulty were implemented, imo, because is is easier to program stat changes across the board than it is to modify the ai for different classes of enemies, or even individual ones.
2) The only mob pass that I can remember which wasn't like this was the Viper pass, when an attempt was made to introduce different mechanics and spread the mobs out a bit more. That was in Balseraph's day. The only "increased difficulty" we've gotten lately has been (for some, anyway) Gravitar and Warlord, and maybe Hai Pan for some people. Imo a new difficulty level would probably be like the old ones, a buff to mob HP and damage.
3) What would happen if a more health/more damage difficulty level were put in? Those who even bother to use it will adapt their builds (if they even need to). Without better rewards, most people might try it out, then abandon it. With better rewards, it will be speed mined until people have what they want, then abandoned.
I am not against adding such a level. I'd like better AI, but let's face it, we are unlikely to get it.
All that said, are there enough people who want it to justify the effort to produce it? Also, a lot of effort has been expended in this thread to convince forumites. I have seen zero herein that would help a developer prove to management that the effort would be cost effective.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
There are plenty of people after a difficulty increase, many of which have quit the game because of lack of challenge for such a long time, 2 years is too much. People who have money, and would spend it if they didnt think what they are buying is always going to be useless to what they/we already have.
Yes i do believe it is very unlikely anyone on the Cryptic team even knows HOW to code better AI at this point as the majority of the true development team are far long and gone.
I suggest stat changes (and maybe even power additions) because it would be the easiest to implement.
The only real challenge a full team of 5 freeforms has really gotten is Teliosaurus (before she was nerfed), Haloween Doom Lord (before he got nerfed) and Shadow Colossus with no Mega-Ds (the only one still able to be played currently that hasnt been nerfed into the ground by complaints by AT's and weak builds)
I would expect a 'Mastervillain' to be something that is threatening to a player. Jack Fool for example is a perfect example of a threatening enemy.
But we don't need smarter AI to get improved mob behavior. As i said Mob groups designed with the trinity in mind will go a long way. Its not that the mobs aren't smart enough, its that they don't have a diverse enough set of tools and cant support each-other in a group.
EX: The Tsoo sorcerers from the late COX had teleporting ability, heals, and a PBAOE repel, with accuracy debuff. These guys didn't hit very hard, but as support mobs they didn't need to, because they were grouped with other mobs designed specifically for dps.
The Tsoo sorcerers were support mobs and when they did their jobs, they made the whole mobs more "challenging" without the need for complex AI (they operated on a much older version of the Cryptic engine).
I Admit that even this change is unlikely, even though Robobo showed interest in this kind of change back in the day.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Thats not a fair argument against adding difficulty, just as its not a fair argument against the foundry, or a new zone or ect. This game just doesn't have the funds to give the players what they want.
The only thing the bean counters in management will approve of is something that can be sold in the Z-store, but that doesn't mean that morar Z-store stuff is all the game needs.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
This^
I don't even expect smarter AI for much the same reasons that have already been stated. But just giving mobs a more diverse set of tools alone should provide adequate challenge and more importantly, interesting gameplay, without bumping up difficulty to levels that are unmanageable by more casual players.
We already have some of those in some Viper and Argent mobs. We just need more of those in other mob groups and more variety of support-specific mobs capable of granting buffs for enemies, de-buffing PCs and/or healing mobs (just setup some rules for them not to spam heals to the point where mobs never die), and tank mobs with actual taking abilities such as blocks and crippling challenge.
Agreed. There are SOME mobs in CO which have supporting members on the mob side.
Examples are The Elder Worms, The Gadroon. Elderworms have lower level/low HP healers who can either shield or heal other members using Psionic Reflection Shield and Empathic Healing. Gadroon have access to fairly potent shielding in some capacity or another.
I think these sorts of mechanics can be capitalized on for certain mobs. A couple examples could be as follows.
PSI: With the new telepathic powers comming out soon (very little ppl know about this :O). I personally would LOVE to see the mob activity of PSI to be upgraded. After all they are mentalists. Some things I'd like to see from PSI.
Inductee - Should stay largely the same but have access to Ego Blast in some capacity.
Neophyte - Their Psionic Surges should carry either NTTG or the flight debuff legacy devices have.
Proctor - Perhaps more than just an energy builder TK Blade slice, incorporate more damaging attacks which are displayed early on.
Hypnotist - Buff their damage, make their placates more powerful and allow for them to heal others whilst placated and when not placated. Perhaps some interrupt powers?
Slicer - Allow their attacks to do crushing and ego damage and gain access to a PSI like Shadow Strike (no where near as powerful) which does high ego damage, like 1k ego damage or something.
Agent - Add an Ego damage version of Thunderclap perhaps?
I think mobs need to attack with increased regularity, instead of standing around then attacking like they are taking "turns". They should be as mobile and active as heroes in terms of power usage.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
The new pattern under Stokeman is that power sets are reviewed to coincide with thematic releases. We should add mob reviews into this cycle. If mobs were reviewed gradually over time with every thing else, it wouldn't become a huge resource sucking project.
We already had something like this when Heavy Weapons was added as a power set and given to NPCs around the same time.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
I was also hoping for an event on a zone wide scale.
They are my favorite villain group, I'd love it if Psimon had somehow escaped and PSI and The Elder Worms were at war across MC OR working together to rid the world of weakminded heroes :biggrin:
Even if it means that heroes have to forge an alliance with some villain groups like VIPER or Argent or DEMON just to keep themselves alive.
I would TOTALLY back this idea/event. But it seems extremely unlikely.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
Oh, it's a fair argument against all of them. Difference being, there's larger appeal to everything you mentioned here. What you list here is a fair argument, but not a factual one in the context of zones or foundry.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Agreed. Ultimately, it comes down to offering subscribers something for their money, or maybe tempting a larger number of silvers who will play and buy something if something new is added. What we are fighting there, though, is the F2P industry, which has makes money by providing as little as possible for players to do, and maxing out stuff for players to buy.
I wasn't arguing against adding difficulty, I was trying to focus on giving the devs an argument to take to the decision-makers that might actually work. Personally, other than charging for access to Supra-Elite, I got nothing.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
I don't think the developers actually talk to management... mostly because management doesn't return their calls unless the answering machine message mentions NWO.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Joke for the oldies here on the forum
The easy difficulty in Elite mode is an exploit! This exploit needs to be fixed and difficulty tripled back to how it was quickly before everyone finds out about this exploit and exploit it!
Dont do it man its not worth it! :O
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
I could try to auction off one of the most richest account on Co and it wouldnt be worth anything.
I have no other choice to push this topic forward with my passion for the game. A passion i cant simply brush off.
Now make a video showcasing the exploit.
Sigh on a more personal note: Can someone give me a rundown on how to take care of the mobs before I get to the Endbringers. I have got Daikai whatever it is but flew around above and LA'd the power things down and never took on the big baddies (too many mobs around). I'd like to have a go at these guys without listening to that pathetic wretch Doc D whilst I'm doing it.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
About the @handle - it's a long story.
Profound quote.. "I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing."
Hahaha
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cuVXlQBAkw
Dude...
Did you really want to post a link to your YouTube?
I mean, many of us remember you and your banning, as well as the rants on other boards after the ban...
I know the "game is too easy" rant should have been a clue, you've been harping on that for ages. I guess age has slowed me down a bit...
But now that I know who you are, let me leave you with a :rolleyes:
M-O-O-N, that spells @Rhyatt
Originally Posted by mijjestic: Ultimately, though, MMO players throwing stones at each other in this fashion is basically one nerd pointing and laughing at another nerd whose glasses are thicker.
Laws yes!
I disagree with SOME of your points on this thread but I salute the fact you stick to your guns. O.O<
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Then prepare to be disappointed.
I seriously doubt we will see anything more than the options that were in COH for difficulty. Which had absolutely nothing to do with anything you posted.
From a REALISTIC standpoint I just don't see anything advanced coming if they ever do intend to tackle difficulty.
And I'd prefer if they focused on the other 13232323 things they've been neglecting for CO in the past year instead of yet another mini revamp of the game.
Difficulty (without new content) is the DEAD LAST thing the CO DEV (notice I said DEV not devs) should be tackling right now.
Just saying.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
I thought it smelled familiar.
Wait? Whaaaa..?
I know people that worked for Sega and you're right and wrong. The problem they had was that they kept coming out with more and more new hardware while leaving their old hardware with very few good games to play which resulted in people not wanting to buy the new hardware they came out with since there wasn't much reason to think it'd get the support it needed.
Huh...
Now that I think about it, that kinda sounds like Cryptic and the way they've pretty much abandoned CO, doesn't it?
Without anything to do, i do what any other gamer would do, go repeat some content or farm for a device, but if that content is too easy, you can see why i have had no choice but to tell it like it is.
It's like kaiserin said really, a LOT of people have left BECAUSE of the game having no more content additions, and the super-easy difficulty of the game has drawn away all interest of repeating content. Customers who were regular purchasers.
I have nothing to lose by bringing this up again and again, until a change is made which will bring them back to the game.
The ease of difficulty effects people in many ways, look at A.R.C supergroup for example, used to be the most PvE 'organised' (not random-invite overpopulated and eventless) SG in the game. It has mostly desintegrated now because 2 years is just absurd amounts of time without content or challenge. They've had to resort to doing only Costume Contests for almost two years...that right there is an incredible amount of dedication, and waiting.
Then everything on the Calender goes blank...and a tonne of A.R.C have had no choice but to abandon the game.
Im not even going to begin telling you guys how much that sucked, but i too had to take a step away for 6 months.
I come back and nothing has changed...no, only thing that has happened is the opposite of what this game needs, players have been buffed again, then again, and even further with devices...the game has truly gone as corrupt as to submit children to gambling addiction on lockboxes...this is something in stories that normally the villain who played a fat black-suit businessman with a briefcase with the personality of a sick monster would do. But its happened just like in those horror stories!
Hey kids, spin the wheel.
Regardless of all thats happened, CO have a final chance to bring back customers with difficulty, and id ask for content but if that mission in the sky (where vehicles make you weaker) is all the content they can come up with in a year then it's like i said, i have no choice but to bang my head against this wall until it crumbles regardless of the small Anti-Snake group of topic griefers, because iv nothing to lose, and i believe it is the right thing to do to get my old friends playing again.
All i see most of the old groups doing right now is sat in the middle of Ren Cen IF theyre ever logged in, then they log out... cant help but feel sorry, like i didnt try hard enough to give them something challenging to do.
I think this is a very important point and that you don't take it far enough and this is why:
Sure the discussion has been had before but the game is constantly changing so the discussion is WORTH bringing up again and again in the future. As long as the game keeps evolving discussions of difficulty, especially top-end difficulty, will always be relevant. New loot (lockbox stuff) and new power changes make it relevant. Even if somehow everyone agreed today on the best course of action and the devs implemented it... by next spring it would still be relevant again because some patch would change things up.
I think that saying it's an old topic is just as pointless as forgetting that the discussion is only about the top difficulty levels.
And that said, I know that many have said AI changes are best but least likely. Myself I like the idea of a variety of powers and challenges rather than just boosted numbers. The devs might say it's great but too hard or too expensive. That's all the more reason for the community to push for doing it right. Otherwise we'll get what happened with vehicles: not what we asked for. Don't settle, don't ask the devs to do it wrong or simple or cheap. At least try for what will make the best improvement to the game. If the devs cut corners or cheap out or take the low road, let that be their call.
First off. I am a new player. Those of you in this thread that refer to new players, just stop. You don't speak for them. You don't know what they want and you certainly don't know what they're capable of game wise. I know this because I'm one of them.
So far in this game I have soloed Teleios's Tower, Burial Cave, and Moreau's Lab. I did them all on elite as soon as the missions sending you to those places are available so... 3 or 4 levels below the level of the instance.
Right now I'm running around on a level 40 that uses SC gear with no mods. I'm obliterating everything I come across. I also still have 3 powers to pick on this toon and 17 advantage points to spend. I tried to solo Shadow Destroyer one day for the hell of it after everyone on the Q run of NemCon I'd been on left the map and if I hadn't gotten bored and stopped paying attention, I probably could have done it.
I've only been here since September so it's not like I've had the time to learn the ins and outs of maximizing a build and you know what? I don't need to. The character I've been currently playing is proof of that. I play theme builds that seem fun and that's more than enough to steamroll everything found here.
Not only am I a new player to this game, I'm part of a rather large influx of new players. I know who these people are, I know what it is they think is fun to do in games, and I actively watch for them to find new arrivals and put them in touch with other friends that have shown up and you know what the most frequent question is I'm asked by them?
"How come no one teams on this game?"
To this, they get the same response from I and others that talk to them.
"No one teams because there's no reason to. The whole game can be soloed even at max dif."
Now I know someone's going to be tempted to quote this post and say something along the lines of, "But the casual players..." so before they do, I am talking about casual players. These aren't power gamers that sit down and min/max their toons until they're digital gods. These are people that when they get home from work want to kick back, log in, and have some fun running around the game with friends.
Some of them have already quit this game. Why? Boredom. Yes. Boredom. Apparently some of you think it's amazing to be able to grind the same content over and over without ever having to worry about whether or not you can find people to run it with but, the people that are have been arriving, and will continue to, are a whole other animal. A much more social one and they think that is boring. Especially after doing it a couple times.
Teaming creates an ever changing dynamic. If you don't believe me, just look at the nerdrage that goes on over alerts. Some of you will try to claim that's about lowbies and, to an extent, it is. It's also about having to work with others. When you're dependant on others to help you accomplish your goals you never know how things will go unless you team with the same people so often that you're like clockwork. You can run the same content over and over and it'll be different every time because you were working with different people each time. Keep in mind when I say this that I'm primarily a solo player. I prefer chatting away in tells and on the few channels I'm on while exploring and figuring out how to make game breaking toons so it's not like I'm saying this for my own self interest.
The problem with teaming on this game is that there's absolutely no reason to. In fact, you're punished for teaming by having to split the drops with other players. Some players will team up because they dislike soling that much. Many others need some sort of incentive to. Many of the new players aren't teaming, and from the looks of things, it's pretty rare among established players too outside of alerts. Bascailly you need to be challenged and that needs to be done by making the game hard enough that people actually want to team.
This is how I think it should happen...
Support characters. I know some villain groups have them but, every group in this game should have a NPC capable of buffing, debuffing, mezzing, or healing.
I do think that tanker NPCs should be left out unless their version of crippling challenge doesn't force you to target them. I've fought things that doe this in other games and it's not fun. It's a frustrating annoyance. Especially if there's a lot of them.
I also think the scaling of the difficulty should be looked at across the board. Normal should probably stay how it is since that should be scaled to what a casual player using an AT can do when paying at least a little attention but, all the difficulty levels above that should at least be looked at.
I think the levels of difficulty should work like this.
Normal = 1 AT being played casually.
Difficult = 2-3 ATs
Hard = 5 ATs or one decently built freeform
Very Hard = 2-3 freeforms
Elite = 5 freeforms
I'm against the idea of just adding to their HP and think that instead they should get a buff to their powers, including damage mitigation abilities and support powers. I think increasing difficulty in this manner while adding support characters to enemy groups would increase the challenge to all levels of difficulty without crippling players running ATs by themself.
I also think higher levels of difficulty should recieve more rewards. Please note that I'm not asking for better rewards, just more. Increase the chances for drops and give more resources per kill. It's taking longer to get through the mobs with increased risk. Players do deserve some sort of additional reward for that after all.
Okay. I'm done. Sorry for the wall of text.
As a new player coming from the same place she did...
Hell I have more fun in this game LOSING to Gravitar than waltzing around content that can't even touch me.
Many of the new players coming do enjoy challenge... sure we moan and complain when we encounter it, but then the sense of accomplishment once it is mastered is one of the best things ever. Examples of this for those in the know: Apex TF, Tin Mage TF, Incarnate Trials.
This. Gravitar is a beautiful fight, and I love it...even when I spend most of the time eating pavement. THAT'S difficulty that I can appreciate.
But just giving them more HP/damage just means I have to hit them a lot more...yay.
For me it was beating the hell out of Statesman one on one in Lord Recluse Strike Force, soloing half of the Lambda trial (That was on accident. I turned the wrong way and didn't even realize I was seperated from the rest of the league until I'd gone full circle and sandwiched the last mob between me and them), tanking Seige and Nightstar at the same time, and going toe to toe with Neo Pendragon without any backup.
All of that was done on a Katana/Invulnerability scrapper, two powersets that a lot of people said were terrible when I made that character. :biggrin:
You mean to say that you're a self-confessed casual player who don't actually expect to steam-roll over everything in the game like easy pie and actually desire to be challenged?
Gee whiz and I was called ignorant and deluded in the past for my views on how being a casual player doesn't automatically mean wanting to breeze through everything on an easy difficulty. :rolleyes:
The term "casual player" can be defined in different ways.
VARIANT
"Nearly all men can withstand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
-Abraham Lincoln-
Yeah, some of us just like to play wearing a cardigan sweater and no pants. It doesn't mean we like it ez, we just like to be soooo casual when we play.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Hoooolly ****e... I wasn't even around for those TFs, but I know that they were fairly harder than the old ones... Or rather, as my friend put it, about the same power level, but smarter made.
That's hardcore, what kind of IOs were you running on that? My soft capped Katana/SR went Mano-e-Mano (well, tanked anyway) with two of the AVs in the STF, but SR was quite a bit easier to get crazy performance out of than Invuln.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Thank god. Hell, thank all the gods, even the foreign ones.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Don't temp me, because I know you of all people are smarter than this crap.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
I wanted to excise these three points out of the rather longish posts they are ensconced in, because they are important. Gavin's because that is what has happened too often in CO, Snakes's and Arimikami's because this is the only thing that might actually prompt action by management.
edit: because I don't want to provide derail opportunities.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
Which makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE WHATSOEVER and in fact is an argument AGAINST what Snake is going on about, seeing as CoX was by large and far as easy as CO was once you got a character in SOs, and largely didn't see content that could be called remotely challenging outside of a few high level instances that all in all were about as hard as ours.
Most of the places where CoX was harder, were largely circumstantial, I. E. the difficulty slider over there having a more widespread effect, early levels being harder due to a different gear and resource management curve, once you filter all that out you had a game where you can faceroll all the mobs you want as long as you're playing something with some defense.
Let me put this in perspective: We had something basically called the Scrapper Olympics: It was basically who could solo AVs and crap like Rikti Pylons the fastest or otherwise best. This was considered a good thing, and was a much loved past time of the games better players. That's pretty much the same thing as soloing Legendaries, Mega-Ds and even Cosmics.
The reason there is no teaming here, has NOTHING to do with difficulty. The cause is the same one I've been pointing out since launch: The teaming experience SUCKS in CO. In CoX, people would team for the most piss easy missions in the game, radio missions, just because teaming up was easy, fun and rewarding. There was barely any futzing around with the UI, no ensuring everyone is on the same page in terms of missions so they get good XP, just team up, set a mission, and go.
If management wants to shoot themselves in the foot, wasting time on a half assed implementation of this sort of thing this is a great place to start.
Yeah, I couldn't just let that slide, sorry.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Arimikami gets 10 points!
I agree with this with all of my passion for CO. The difference between difficulties need to be far more widespread, Normal doesnt need changing, the differences between normal and elite are like, tiny differences. It matters to AT's when you change the difficulty up because its more noticeable, but if youre freeform (compleeeete other side to this game), you kinda find it hard to notice when you get decent at building even 'themed' builds.
Well, I hate to break it to ya but, you are... at least a little. I never said I was a casual player. Just that I'm part of the community that a large number of casual players are coming here from and know them as well as talk to them regularly. It also means you lack reading comprehension, especially considering you quoted the whole damn post and somehow that was all you could think to say.
Next time why not try looking over what's written and actually think about it instead of jumping at the chance to sling mud?
/shrugs
Which is what is being requested here, a broader range of effect from the difficulty slider.
I disagree with the nature of how that is requested to be implemented, and doubt very heavily that Cryptic is capable of more than that, but essentially the OP is asking for just what you describe...a broader range of difficulty settings because currently the difference between the lowest and the highest setting is not particularly great.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
They were actually quite a bit harder and playing smart wouldn't really help you. For one thing, a very large portion of the damage in the earlier trials was psi.If you played then you know that psi was the chink in most armors. There was also the fact that everything in trials was level 54 at the least. Put those two things together and most melees would crumple like wet tissue paper under a sustained assault.
With Statesman, the big problem for me was pulling him away from everybody else and killing him before the others noticed and tried to help me, thinking I needed it.
As far as the build went, there was nothing too fancy in it. I had a couple sets of obliteration slotted into my PBAoEs since I needed the recharge and S/L defense but, that was the most expensive set I used. I just figured out how to softcap an invuln against S/L damage which was what most of the game was and then I got my S/L damage resistance to cap. After that it was just a matter of piling in recharge so I could use dull pain as often as possible.
I'm actually a little impressed that you managed to do well on that with a SR. I had a SS/SR brute I loved running around on so I know what a pita some of it could be with things like autohits that ignored defense and Positron's debuffs.
I'm going to have to call you on this. It's not really that accurate and you know it unless you've been gone long enough to forget a lot about that game or went out of your way to only fight things that were easymode for whatever toon you were playing at the time. From early levels all the way to level cap, players were constantly being challenged unless they specifically avoided those challenges and a lot of that was due to the various debuffers that the NPC factions had. Here's a few examples...
Circle of Thorns had characters that could debuff player accuracy, placate the players so they couldn't fight back, mez the players, and has autohit PBAoEs, rendering one of the two forms of mitigation completely useless.
Vahzilok did toxic damage, one of the two least resisted forms of damage in the game.
Clockwork did electrical damage which would drain your energy bar. They were effective enough at it that there were times when entire teams were reduced to using only brawl because it was the only attack that didn't cost energy.
Longbow had Wardens, one of the most troublesome types of characters in the game because all you knew was they had powers and it varied what powers they'd have from one Warden to the next. It was pretty common for them to have Cold, Sonic, or Radiiation powers, some of the most vicious debuffing powersets in the game.
Tsoo had sorcerers, teleporting, debuffing healers that had a PBAoE KB
Between it's various NPCs, you could be sure that you'd face every type of damage available in the game when going against Arachnos meaning that even the toughest tanks were sure to have to deal with something they were weak against.
Freakshow could self rez so after you beat them, they'd get up off the floor and jump you from behind while you were dealing with another group. They also had Super Shockers which could rip the energy from the bars of entire groups of players in a matter of moments.
Rikti did psi damage, the other least resisted damage type in the game. They also had attack drones that could see through any and all forms of stealth, no matter how many layers of it you had.
Almost everything I've listed are groups you'd have to face from level one all the way up to level 50.
Do I need to continue?
This right here shows how long you've been gone from that game. Soloing Rikti Pylons was not a much loved passtime. Neither was soloing AVs and neither of those were comparable to soloing Legendaries or Cosmics. That particular feat was much closer to accomplishments like soloing Giant Monsters such as Lusca. Even then, there were still things in the game that could never be soloed, like Hamidon, and it wasn't unsoloable because of lazy design tactics like gating Hamidon behind requiring a certain number of players. It was because of the game's mechanics. It was simply impossible for any one player to ever resist that much damage, do that much healing, layer that many mezzes, and do that much melee and ranged damage (Hamidon required both) but, you were welcome to try. I know because I did and I faceplanted hard each and every time I did. It was still fun to try though.
If this was really the case, people wouldn't team on other games that use similar teaming arrangements and division of spoils. There was the fact that unlike in CO, the majority of your XP in CoH came from defeating mobs while it's from completing missions here so, I will give you that but, to say that the reason no one teams here has nothing to do with difficulty is dishonest. I have no issues with teaming but, I don't because there's no reason to and again, you're actually punished for teaming on this game.
Neither could I.
Seems that I have struck a nerve somehow so I'm going to try to clarify things.
You made the following points:
You stated that you didn't learn the in and outs of min-maxing and also declared that you can get through the game fine without having to.
To me, that's the kind of trait a casual player has: A player who doesn't bother too much with figuring out the very best kind of configuration for powers/skills mechanics-wise so that they can perform at their very best, whether or not it's for the sake of keeping to a theme / concept. They just go along with whatever works and manage to have fun at the same time while being able to perform adequately.
You also stated that you're using gear without mods. I am to believe that it means optimizing your hero stats via mods is not important for you to get through the game fine.
You didn't actually say that you were a casual player, but seem to have given the impression that you were. I admit that I'm at fault for coming to that assumption.
Anyway it seems that you took offense, and that wasn't my intention. I did read through the post the first time and for the most part I agree with your points. It was my mistake quoting the whole post instead of addressing points selectively and I apologize if you feel that I was trivializing things and using it as an excuse to mud-sling. It's just that I've very frustratedly in another thread tried to explain my views on how being a casual player doesn't necessarily mean wanting content to have nothing but an easy difficulty and I got flamed to hell for it.
Then I apologize for my response. The points I was trying to make in that post was that there's no reason to even bother trying to min/max on this game. It's so easy even on elite that it's really not needed. You can take pretty much any powers and slap them together and do just fine which is great for players that want to run on normal difficulty but, very very very bad for anyone looking to actually be challenged a little that is running on elite and I do agree with you. There's nothing that says someone that's a casual player can't want to be challenged. Games of all sorts are generally about accomplishment. If it takes no effort, time, or thought to accomplish something in a game then that game generally doesn't get played too often aside from make believe by little kids and even then, there is a desire to accomplish something which is why you end up with children playing cops and robbers with one yelling that they got someone and the other insisting they didn't.
As a COH player from beta, and a CO player from Alpha, the number one complaint I've heard about CO is that the setup for teaming sucked compared to COH. COH it was stupidly easy to setup a team and just go as Xoa stated. This had jack ****e to do with difficulty. It was simply easier to setup a pickup group in COH for 90% of that game's life.
Here, I don't team cause it's a ****ing pain in the **** to properly setup a team, so that everyone is on the same page. Has been since alpha. Alerts were and are a godsend for teaming in CO. It makes teaming in CO easy mode, which is why Alerts are waaaaay more popular now that teaming for regular missions. The ONLY time I see teams forming in CO for non-Alert stuff is to farm content or do the rare things like TT.
I'd rather solo than put up with the idiocy of the systems and UI used here for teaming.
Whether folks generally team here vs COH has jack ****e to do with difficulty. In COH everyone teamed for -1 missions and for the most difficult missions and content.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
Getting a team going in CoH was a lot easier and more hassle-free that doing so in CO, I agree, but that's beside the point.
Teaming had alot to do with difficulty in CoH. CoH was strictly all about classic trinity gameplay. I remember my Blaster and Defender ATs having no chance solo'ing a good portion of the game. Solo'ing as either in a TF was unthinkable. Even as I souped up my Blaster with high-tiered IO sets and got my ranged attack evasion (I forgot the accurate name) to slightly above 50%, there was still no chance I was going to get through content unless I got into a team that had a good trinity setup in order.
When it comes to CO, a majority of the game can be solo'ed and I guess I can refer to regular missions since they do represent a good majority of the game. If a particular mission doesn't require a team to complete it then there's little incentive in wanting to form a team to do that mission unless it's purely for the social factor. Trinity isn't an important requirement for such missions. There isn't a need for loot distribution either if the mission is solo'ed. Simply put, the difficulty is trivial enough that there isn't a need for teaming.
So arimikami was right in saying that teaming has much to do with difficulty.
It's not one or the other. It's both.
Teaming isn't nearly as complicated here as people make it out to be. The team lead sets the primary mission and it's shared with everyone else on the team. CoH didn't even have the option of sharing missions because there was no point to. You got the majority of your XP from kills, not mission turn ins and anyone in an instance for a sufficient amount of time got the XP bonus for mission completion.
So much for setting up teams being too difficult.
Now, if you're talking about finding teams, that's a whole other story and that is relevant to difficulty. I'm not even going to waste time going into it again. If you want to know why, go look at my initial post, comment on that, and then we'll debate it's merits or lack of.
Seriously, I had this long thing I was writing up until I got to the point where you called Freakshow hard. I erased it, and this is what you're getting instead:
The game you're referring to, is not the game you're describing. Nothing you said here is accurate in the least, at least not if you really knew what you were talking about. Almost none of the things you talk about were even a threat to a well built character between the levels of 25 and 50. The fact you used invuln also shows strongly here, because that set was BAD. Playing Invuln was akin to playing a PFF character here, possibly even old PFF. EVERYTHING seems harder than it really is. Blasters tended to have an easier time, just because their damage is higher and they had better options for Crowd Control sometimes.
What staggers me the most, is you call piss easy things like Vhaz and Freakshow hard, and you don't even mention, baring Arachnos, any of the ACTUALLY dangerous groups in the game, completely forgetting about Carnies, Malta and a few others. You don't even mention Redcaps, one of the pre-40 groups that- while they didn't do anything special- just hit REALLY HARD.
Do you EVEN REALIZE that nearly everything that made blueside CoT hard completely disappears past the 20s? You're hard pressed to find Ruin Mages in any CoT content at 50, I can't even remember any off hand, and they were the worst thing they had because in tight spaces they left the supports and blasters with no where they could stand to avoid getting juggled. Instead, they're replaced with these pitiful Death Mages, that were anything but deadly.
The list of things wrong with your post is so long, so uninformed, so incredibly unthoughtful that I can't be assed to really go through it. It's just terrible. I didn't even know the game half as well as I know CO, and I could mash my face on the keyboard through half the stuff you're calling hard here.
No he isn't, at least not in the terms I'm talking of. Our difficulty slider is a little bit more shallow, as it has less notches on it, but what I'm refering to was that the difficulty slider in CoX effected almost everything because nearly the entire game went in an instanced direction.
Not to mention all that instanced content scaled to the players level to some extent, like APs. The real hillarious part that really gives a peek into how much of a snake oil salesman Snake is (See what I did there), is that a decent part of his video is him using big damage powers on a level 40 character against sub level 40 run of the mill unbuffed mobs.
It's greater than you or many other people give it credit for. Elite TT is significantly harder than normal, because of the stacking buffs and level differences. That's another thing CoX was different about: Not only did enemies get buffed less drastically in general, players had stacking buffs and debuffs that make our best support characters in CO look sad.
Sure, the difficulty slider doesn't do jack for unbuffed crappy mobs like Psi, but things get a magnitude more drastic with every additional thing tacked onto them, which you'd know if you've ever experienced the wonder that is the hall of Brickbusters. While On Alert may have changed this a bit, prior to it someone had described it as a "Fireing squad capable of leveling a tank meant to waltz around the Teleiosaurus." Before cryptic should do ANYTHING involving difficulty, they need to learn how to CONTROL difficulty, because as it stands it's not that this game is too easy, it's that the difficulty of it is all over the gorram place with no rhyme or reason.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
You commented on my choice of using invuln yet talked about preferring SR. My invuln was softcapped. You know that think SRs strive for? I had it on a toon that was never meant to have it in addtion to capped resistances and yes, I know people thought it was a bad set. Lots of people thought katana was terribad too. That was the point. I took two of what were viewed as the worst sets in the game and put them together to make a toon that steamrolled everything at +4/x8 difficulty.
Yes. Vahz could be difficult. They did Toxic damage which almost nothing in the game resisted and they had attacks that cut into your recharge.
Again, Freakshow would self rez and jump you from behind unless you waited to see if they'd get back up and Super Shockers could end drain an entire team in a matter of moments if you didn't make a point to kill them first and Super Shockers always self rezzed.
I haven't forgotten Malta or Carnies. The first group would end drain and the second had NPCs that did Psi damage. They also both had mezzers and Carnies had NPCs that would summon backup as well as phase but, seeing how strongly you're against any change to this game's difficulty, I figured you'd have a conniption if I even hinted at them including mobs capable of what a Carny Mistress could do.
Your choices in statements are showing your playstyle heavily by the way if you honestly think Redcaps were hard just because they hit hard and that Pylons were a celebrated activity. The problem with redcaps was that if you didn't defeat one quick enough it would disappear and respawn as the next higher tier of the group as well as their ability to debuff your accuracy. Pylons were a DPS test. Nothing more.
I'm fully aware of what made blue and redside difficult. I had dozens of level capped and fully IOed toons and ran every single arc in the game on multiple characters. Did you ever play redside? I'm guessing not and if you did, it was teamed on base dif.
There's no need to announce that you didn't know CoH very well. Some of your comments show it like claiming that all instanced content scaled to the player. Instanced missions did not scale to your level. They scaled to the level you were at when you picked up the mission. If you gained a level and wanted the mission to be your level, you had to drop and reacquire it and even that would only work to a limited extent. You also obviously never saw the updated CoT if you think ruin mages were the worst thing CoT had to offer and saying that you never saw them after a certain level proves that you didn't play redside. Mob composition was a bit different there from blueside.
Also gotta point out that I never said I viewed any of that has hard. I said it challenged players and it did. As far as what you say is challenging on this game goes... I pugged TT on Elite the very first time I ran it and ended up tanking Valerian on a PFF which according to you is absolutely terrible to use. So much for your supposed challenge. The difficulty of this game isn't all over the place though as you seem to think. It's just that Brickbusters do actually debuff which was the whole point of what I'd been saying. Glad to see you understood at least a little of what I was saying even though it took trying to prove someone else wrong to get you to admit it.