I'm open to giving mobs more support-type abilities. Depending on the buffs they bring it might make prioritizing your targets an actual thing for once. For me, these support types would have to border on being really annoying. Like having them around in a fight for too long should be a bit detrimental to your health. Like Brickbuster levels of annoying but without the BS a Brickbuster brings. Of course you can't simply ignore the other dudes they're rolling with either cause the buff they're under makes them a real pain in the butt too.
This is pretty much what I think is needed. It means that players have to pay some atttention to what they're doing while still allowing casual players to run content at a fairly relaxed pace. It would also mean those people playing characters that are geared to a specific role would maybe want another player or two with them to provide the capabilities that their characters are weak at. I don't see this as bad at all considering that archetypes are geared to perform specific roles.
As for gear, I'm somewhat on the fence. I don't run lairs very often so gear isn't all that important to me but I know there are some players out there that NEED to have the best gear they can get their hands on. I'm gonna go with the idea to simply give more recog tokens at higher difficulties with the addendum that the end bosses on the toughest settings should drop a really really nice piece of gear in addition to the tokens.
Personally, I'm against them including better gear into the game at this point. I'm very much against them having it drop only from lair bosses. We have Silver Champions gear which can easily be attained in under a week of play. Given the challenges that are currently available, it's more than enough. Adding better gear to the game would also result in the gear treadmill that people like Auld are so strongly against and that I'm not a huge fan of either. We don't need better gear added imo. We need a reason to waste our time getting the better gear that's already available.
Edit: More costume drops would be cool though. That'd give players an incentive since even if they don't care about costumes, they could sell them on the AH and use the resources gained to get better mods or pay for retcons. Hell, use them as rewards in costume contests after you get them.
This is pretty much what I think is needed. It means that players have to pay some atttention to what they're doing while still allowing casual players to run content at a fairly relaxed pace. It would also mean those people playing characters that are geared to a specific role would maybe want another player or two with them to provide the capabilities that their characters are weak at. I don't see this as bad at all considering that archetypes are geared to perform specific roles.
Personally, I'm against them including better gear into the game at this point. I'm very much against them having it drop only from lair bosses. We have Silver Champions gear which can easily be attained in under a week of play. Given the challenges that are currently available, it's more than enough. Adding better gear to the game would also result in the gear treadmill that people like Auld are so strongly against and that I'm not a huge fan of either. We don't need better gear added imo. We need a reason to waste our time getting the better gear that's already available.
Edit: More costume drops would be cool though. That'd give players an incentive since even if they don't care about costumes, they could sell them on the AH and use the resources gained to get better mods or pay for retcons. Hell, use them as rewards in costume contests after you get them.
I never said "better" I said "really really nice". Something on par with Silver Champs or whatever high end purple is available right now. Costume pieces would be nice too.
I never said "better" I said "really really nice". Something on par with Silver Champs or whatever high end purple is available right now. Costume pieces would be nice too.
Alrihgt. Misunderstanding on my part. I don't see that as a bad thing but, I don't really see what they could include since silver champions gear seems to have all bases covered.
Alrihgt. Misunderstanding on my part. I don't see that as a bad thing but, I don't really see what they could include since silver champions gear seems to have all bases covered.
Stuff with more mod slots but less base stats or it could be actual Silver Champs gear. I know in WoW currently their system involves you either getting lucky on a boss drop for the gear you want or saving up a particular currency and buying a comparable item. I don't see how it would be a bad thing to do something similar in principle here. You run lairs for tokens and if you're lucky you can get the piece you were saving up for as a drop from the end boss; making the tokens you've already saved up available to spend on something else, thus making the process quicker.
Stuff with more mod slots but less base stats or it could be actual Silver Champs gear. I know in WoW currently their system involves you either getting lucky on a boss drop for the gear you want or saving up a particular currency and buying a comparable item. I don't see how it would be a bad thing to do something similar in principle here. You run lairs for tokens and if you're lucky you can get the piece you were saving up for as a drop from the end boss; making the tokens you've already saved up available to spend on something else, thus making the process quicker.
I could see SC gear being awarded as drops from lair bosses. That's already available in game and is pretty easy to get actually so, it's not like they'd be creating a gear treadmill through including it as drops. Gear with more mod slots is something I'm a little wary of seeing as that edges into the gear treadmill that many people want to avoid.
Another possible option is Rank 6 and higher mods being used as drops from lair bosses. As far as I know, the only way to currently get a rank 6 is to buy it with sc recog or fuse one with fusing being the only way to get anything higher than that. It can't really be called a gear treadmill since there's already ways to get those mods in game and given the rates they ask for at the Z store, I really doubt that including it is going to cut into their sales too much. I know I consider the prices for catalysts to be a complete ripoff and really doubt many people buy them.
I understand were you are coming from. But then it would just feel like Vigilantes Online. I dont want to feel like a killable guy with a gun. I want to feel like an unkillable metahuman than can roomsweeper punch whole mobs into orbit.
That why I play super mmos.
And I play super mmos for the epic action. Can we both have what we want?
^@nepth, v@everyone---
So far no one has really provided any good reason why the game can't have both ezmode content, and more challenging content... with some sort of "thing" that lets you pick how you want the game to be... like... maybe something that slides... like those whistles.
Not surprising, since how can anyone answer a question when they've got headphones on that are playing stuff that some other person said years ago on an infinite loop?
Another question. If they slapped a sticker on your car that said "Expensive Sports Car"... would that make you think you drive an expensive sports car? If not, then why do you feel so cool for playing on a difficulty that's called "Elite" when everyone knows it really isn't?
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
I understand were you are coming from. But then it would just feel like Vigilantes Online. I dont want to feel like a killable guy with a gun. I want to feel like an unkillable metahuman than can roomsweeper punch whole mobs into orbit.
That why I play super mmos.
And I play super mmos for the epic action. Can we both have what we want?
^@nepth, v@everyone---
So far no one has really provided any good reason why the game can't have both ezmode content, and more challenging content... with some sort of "thing" that lets you pick how you want the game to be... like... maybe something that slides... like those whistles.
Not surprising, since how can anyone answer a question when they've got headphones on that are playing stuff that some other person said years ago on an infinite loop?
Another question. If they slapped a sticker on your car that said "Expensive Sports Car"... would that make you think you drive an expensive sports car? If not, then why do you feel so cool for playing on a difficulty that's called "Elite" when everyone knows it really isn't?
This.
Too many people respond to threads like this with comments like, "But if you make the higher difficulties harder than I won't be unkillable."
If you want to be an unstoppable titan, stick to normal difficulty. That's what it's there for.
If you want to claim to be elite, prove it. Show that you're able to take on something that's actually a challenge.
So far no one has really provided any good reason why the game can't have both ezmode content, and more challenging content...
I have. You just keep plugging your ears
Oh, it's quite possible for such a thing to exist. In fact, prior to On Alert, in Whiteout we had an instance of both what you're talking about, and what Nepht is talking about, at the same time. Remember when you used to get absolutely swarmed by the Roinesh at certain points, and it was balls hard but still winnable? You'd come out on top with less a quarter of your health and feel like "**** YEAH."
Consider that all that got wiped away by a change that had nothing directly to do with it. Now consider that the entire game has always been a chaotic mess in terms of difficulty, ranging from absurdly hard to complete cakewalk. Now realize how much work it would be to rework all the existing content's difficulty, and create special stuff for each separate mob group in the game based off your difficult setting, possibly even for different bits of specific content. Now consider the extra work it would take to tweak it so that you have actual content that's harder or easier.
Maybe for another development team this would be a doable task. But seeing as we never even got that special boss fight we were told we were getting for Elite Apocalypse Aversion, or that lair review we've been waiting for, it's extraordinarily unlikely that they have resources to dedicate to this. To make matters worse, the masses are begging for new zones, the foundry, more APs, Super Group bases and more, and at least the content related options are absolutely necessary by nature of being an MMO.
If you're lucky, you'll see some special gimmicks thrown in here or there for Elite versions of future content. If you're really, really lucky, you'll see the difficulty slider be reworked to apply as a debuff on the player somehow, and that's it. What's more than likely, is we get more Alerts, which aren't effected by the difficulty slider at all. It's absolutely insane to expect that we'll see entire chunks of the existing content get updates, especially with the fact the dev team has spent way too much time reworking old content anyway.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Oh, it's quite possible for such a thing to exist. In fact, prior to On Alert, in Whiteout we had an instance of both what you're talking about, and what Nepht is talking about, at the same time. Remember when you used to get absolutely swarmed by the Roinesh at certain points, and it was balls hard but still winnable? You'd come out on top with less a quarter of your health and feel like "**** YEAH."
Consider that all that got wiped away by a change that had nothing directly to do with it. Now consider that the entire game has always been a chaotic mess in terms of difficulty, ranging from absurdly hard to complete cakewalk. Now realize how much work it would be to rework all the existing content's difficulty, and create special stuff for each separate mob group in the game based off your difficult setting, possibly even for different bits of specific content. Now consider the extra work it would take to tweak it so that you have actual content that's harder or easier.
Maybe for another development team this would be a doable task. But seeing as we never even got that special boss fight we were told we were getting for Elite Apocalypse Aversion, or that lair review we've been waiting for, it's extraordinarily unlikely that they have resources to dedicate to this. To make matters worse, the masses are begging for new zones, the foundry, more APs, Super Group bases and more, and at least the content related options are absolutely necessary by nature of being an MMO.
If you're lucky, you'll see some special gimmicks thrown in here or there for Elite versions of future content. If you're really, really lucky, you'll see the difficulty slider be reworked to apply as a debuff on the player somehow, and that's it. What's more than likely, is we get more Alerts, which aren't effected by the difficulty slider at all. It's absolutely insane to expect that we'll see entire chunks of the existing content get updates, especially with the fact the dev team has spent way too much time reworking old content anyway.
Then you demand that they start reinvesting back into this game. Anyone thinking that CO isn't making Cryptic money just hasn't put much thought into it. We are making them money. They're just putting it towards projects outside of this game. Maybe it's time to start demanding they reinvest what they're making off us back into us.
While I tend to think that Cryptic would not make any major investments in time toward making Elite Mode harder, it wouldn't take much to modify the buff given to enemies in Elite difficulty. Damage incoming * 1/2; damage outgoing * 2. And as a reward for playing on Elite, no lockbox drops.
_________________________________________________
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
Then you demand that they start reinvesting back into this game. Anyone thinking that CO isn't making Cryptic money just hasn't put much thought into it. We are making them money. They're just putting it towards projects outside of this game. Maybe it's time to start demanding they reinvest what they're making off us back into us.
We've tried. I'm extremely doubtful it's going to happen with PWE.
PWE doesn't care about hope, wishes or goodwill, they care about the bottom line. This isn't VALVe we're talking about here, that will put a game in development for ten years because they're not happy with it. As a result we will see no sort of investment until something is done to pull the game up to whatever that bottom line is, be it arbitrary or not. If they think NW is a better allocation of funds, then that's where they will continue to go.
Want PWE to stop treating this game like the redheaded stepchild of the pack? Then start asking for things that we know everyone can enjoy. Which doesn't include enemies with 3000% HP. As long as we keep bugging them for things that aren't going to garner a wider appeal and result in more people sticking around and spending money, this game isn't going to see a reinvestment. It's going to be treated like a 3 year old failure on life support.
You'll realize what I'm saying when you consider why we got vehicles so quickly, why they are sub par, and why they cost so much. PWE doesn't consider this game a serious platform for quality development.
We've tried. I'm extremely doubtful it's going to happen with PWE.
PWE doesn't care about hope, wishes or goodwill, they care about the bottom line. This isn't VALVe we're talking about here, that will put a game in development for ten years because they're not happy with it. As a result we will see no sort of investment until something is done to pull the game up to whatever that bottom line is, be it arbitrary or not. If they think NW is a better allocation of funds, then that's where they will continue to go.
Given the opinions I keep seeing from the long time players that have stuck around, I'm not so sure much effort was put into it. I think they consider it an additional source of income. Not necessarily a better one.
Want PWE to stop treating this game like the redheaded stepchild of the pack? Then start asking for things that we know everyone can enjoy. Which doesn't include enemies with 3000% HP. As long as we keep bugging them for things that aren't going to garner a wider appeal and result in more people sticking around and spending money, this game isn't going to see a reinvestment. It's going to be treated like a 3 year old failure on life support.
I never asked for more HP. That'd be just as pointless as the suggestions of people that we use lesser gear or none at all. It doesn't make things more challenging or fun. It makes them tedious and boring.
You'll realize what I'm saying when you consider why we got vehicles so quickly, why they are sub par, and why they cost so much. PWE doesn't consider this game a serious platform for quality development.
They are quite the synchronized mob, huh?
I don't think that they think this game isn't deserving of quality development. I think the people that keep arguing against any type of improvement to this game make them think that you're all willing to settle for low quality development. Giiven the current state of things, I also think they're right.
Oh, it's quite possible for such a thing to exist. In fact, prior to On Alert, in Whiteout we had an instance of both what you're talking about, and what Nepht is talking about, at the same time. Remember when you used to get absolutely swarmed by the Roinesh at certain points, and it was balls hard but still winnable? You'd come out on top with less a quarter of your health and feel like "**** YEAH."
Consider that all that got wiped away by a change that had nothing directly to do with it. Now consider that the entire game has always been a chaotic mess in terms of difficulty, ranging from absurdly hard to complete cakewalk. Now realize how much work it would be to rework all the existing content's difficulty, and create special stuff for each separate mob group in the game based off your difficult setting, possibly even for different bits of specific content. Now consider the extra work it would take to tweak it so that you have actual content that's harder or easier.
Maybe for another development team this would be a doable task. But seeing as we never even got that special boss fight we were told we were getting for Elite Apocalypse Aversion, or that lair review we've been waiting for, it's extraordinarily unlikely that they have resources to dedicate to this. To make matters worse, the masses are begging for new zones, the foundry, more APs, Super Group bases and more, and at least the content related options are absolutely necessary by nature of being an MMO.
If you're lucky, you'll see some special gimmicks thrown in here or there for Elite versions of future content. If you're really, really lucky, you'll see the difficulty slider be reworked to apply as a debuff on the player somehow, and that's it. What's more than likely, is we get more Alerts, which aren't effected by the difficulty slider at all. It's absolutely insane to expect that we'll see entire chunks of the existing content get updates, especially with the fact the dev team has spent way too much time reworking old content anyway.
Stop treating the devs like they ride the short bus. This isn't the special olympics, you don't get applause just for participating.
Your message seems to be "this game sucks, it's going to continue to suck, and there's nothing anyone here there or anywhere can do to change that, so just deal with it". Which begs the question, why are you here?
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Given the opinions I keep seeing from the long time players that have stuck around, I'm not so sure much effort was put into it. I think they consider it an additional source of income. Not necessarily a better one.
They moved developers off our game to work on that one. Point is, if they valued our game as much as that one, they wouldn't have done this. VALVe did this once they I can remember, only for a month or so to help them wrap up, and the game they moved people off of was a game that wasn't even subscription based. They also told the entire community about it when it happened, sort of apologizing ahead of time, and when they came back immediately started work on a nice big update.
I never asked for more HP. That'd be just as pointless as the suggestions of people that we use lesser gear or none at all. It doesn't make things more challenging or fun. It makes them tedious and boring.
That's what Snake did, and as I mentioned before it's one of the easier options. AI is hard work, new mob powers and gimmicks require at least some, slapping more damage/HP/stats onto a mob is cheap and easy. It's also boring and not really difficult as much as unfair past a certain point.
I don't think that they think this game isn't deserving of quality development. I think the people that keep arguing against any type of improvement to this game make them think that you're all willing to settle for low quality development. Giiven the current state of things, I also think they're right.
For the most part, no one is arguing against improvements, we're arguing against the focus of it. People have asked for quality, wide appeal items all over these forums, what we need is to get Cryptic to focus on these things. We did it with bugs, sort of, I think we can do better.
Yes, this means we may have to wait on some things we personally want. I want the foundry, but I don't want it to be vehicles all over. We may actually have to go without some of what comes in our flavor of the week updates for a while so they can work on bigger, higher quality material.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Stop treating the devs like they ride the short bus. This isn't the special olympics, you don't get applause just for participating.
I'm not, I never said that.
You think figuring out how to please a huge crowd of people who appear to have wildly varying wants is easy. It's not. Which is why we need to stop asking for everything but the kitchen sink, and giving them crappy options that when they get up the chain to PWE get green flagged immediately because they can make an easy dollar off it.
Even so, other developers have learned how to shut out the noise and figure out where the patterns repeat in order to come to solid conclusions on what should be prioritized. You get a handful of people together to make a game, and you can't expect every last one of them is good at everything, and priorities is a weak point of this game whether you want to admit it or not. There are so many things they said we were going to get that were completely forgotten about that it's painfully obvious that there's at least some issue with prioritizing.
Fact is, there are certain things that everyone can agree the game needs. This needs to be what we focus on asking for, and we need to settle for nothing less. I've nearly completely stopped asking for anything but this sort of stuff lately, including going back and saying the foundry shouldn't be rushed.
Your message seems to be "this game sucks, it's going to continue to suck, and there's nothing anyone here there or anywhere can do to change that, so just deal with it". Which begs the question, why are you here?
I don't think there's nothing anyone can do about it, but I think we both know the game is in a rut. It's always had a hard time.
And the reason I'm still here is actually because a couple of my RL friends are once again talking about coming back to this game, now that CoX is completely shut down. These people are a bunch that actually have their ******n heads screwed on straight for the most part, a rare trait if I've ever seen one, and I tend to not like to piss them off by randomly ditching them.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
For the most part, no one is arguing against improvements, we're arguing against the focus of it. People have asked for quality, wide appeal items all over these forums, what we need is to get Cryptic to focus on these things. We did it with bugs, sort of, I think we can do better.
Yes, this means we may have to wait on some things we personally want. I want the foundry, but I don't want it to be vehicles all over. We may actually have to go without some of what comes in our flavor of the week updates for a while so they can work on bigger, higher quality material.
I have no problem with waiting for quality. I have no problem with waiting in line for my turn as far as the things I want to see looked at in this game.
Personally, I could care less about the foundry. Thanks to my experiences with AE in CoH and seeing how it was handled there, I think the inclusion of it is pretty meh rather than the miracle cure all that it's proponents see it as. I've noticed from following the threads on it that I'm not the only one that thinks so and that includes people that have experience with STO's foundry. It's not that I think it's a bad thing that shouldn't be included in this game. I just don't consider it a priority.
As far as what people personally want goes... look through this thread. There seem to be a number of people that are in favor of the suggestions I've made ranging from casual players, min/maxxers, new players, and established vets. Even some people that were against a change in the difficulty sliders came around once an open dialigue was established. The only voice that seems to be dead set against it no matter what is yours. Maybe it's time to stop stressing over what was asked for by players in the past and look at this thread again without the preconceptions?
You think figuring out how to please a huge crowd of people who appear to have wildly varying wants is easy. It's not. Which is why we need to stop asking for everything but the kitchen sink [...]
Take an honest look around, and you'll see we're not asking for much. In the past, they've proven they love to do overhauls of this game, so naturally we expect them to happily do it again.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
As far as what people personally want goes... look through this thread. There seem to be a number of people that are in favor of the suggestions I've made ranging from casual players, min/maxxers, new players, and established vets. Even some people that were against a change in the difficulty sliders came around once an open dialigue was established. The only voice that seems to be dead set against it no matter what is yours. Maybe it's time to stop stressing over what was asked for by players in the past and look at this thread again without the preconceptions?
The fact is to forget the past, is to repeat mistakes. We've been down this road, we've seen that higher difficulty is NOT a majority of appeal, despite it garnering support on the forums from all sorts of parties (including myself at one point). While it may be a valid thing to pursue with spare resources, as a focus it's folly.
A mob is a mob. People can be in agreement on something that is flat out wrong, especially when they have bad leadership or a lack of understanding of the situation at hand.
Take an honest look around, and you'll see we're not asking for much. In the past, they've proven they love to do overhauls of this game, so naturally we expect them to happily do it again.
We've asked for...
The Foundry.
Bug Fixes.
New Zones.
New APs.
Vehicles.
Level Cap Raise.
Supergroup Bases.
New Costume Sets.
Crowd Control Rework.
Difficulty Rework.
More of the Various Powerset Reworks.
Lair Reworks
...And I'm gonna stop there, because honestly I could probably double the size of this list without trying. That's enough to prove the point.
Also, do you really want to encourage them to do more reworks? This is what I mean, people have even mentioned this problem on the PTS forums a few times since on alert. They spend too much time reworking stuff, often creating all new assets for existing content that could have gone to new content.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
The fact is to forget the past, is to repeat mistakes. We've been down this road, we've seen that higher difficulty is NOT a majority of appeal, despite it garnering support on the forums from all sorts of parties (including myself at one point). While it may be a valid thing to pursue with spare resources, as a focus it's folly.
A mob is a mob. People can be in agreement on something that is flat out wrong, especially when they have bad leadership or a lack of understanding of the situation at hand.
Meh. You seem to be forgetting that I'm new, Xao. I have no past on this game for you to try to remember. Instead you try to lump me in with some beef you had with other players, some of which probably aren't even around anymore, and want to tag me with all the baggage you have with those people. It's fine. I get it. You're part of "The only things that matter are what matter to me" crowd and you'll grasp at any straw you can find to be the voice of dissent. I've made repeated attempts to have an actual dialogue with people on this forum and you basically keep saying, "No. Other people did things I don't like and that means everyone is wrong." At least now I know you're not worth trying to have a discussion. You've proven in this thread and others that you're not willing to have a real discussion so consider yourself a nonentity.
Meh. You seem to be forgetting that I'm new, Xao. I have no past on this game for you to try to remember. Instead you try to lump me in with some beef you had with other players, some of which probably aren't even around anymore, and want to tag me with all the baggage you have with those people. It's fine. I get it. You're part of "The only things that matter are what matter to me" crowd and you'll grasp at any straw you can find to be the voice of dissent. I've made repeated attempts to have an actual dialogue with people on this forum and you basically keep saying, "No. Other people did things I don't like and that means everyone is wrong." At least now I know you're not worth trying to have a discussion. You've proven in this thread and others that you're not willing to have a real discussion so consider yourself a nonentity.
See, this is it, this is your problem, this is snakes problem. I'm not talking about your past here, I'm talking about this game's past. YOU'RE making this personal, not me.
I didn't know who the hell honest researcher was until he mentioned it, either, and he went STRAIGHT towards it being a grudge because he got the exact same reaction out of me he did before. Instead of realizing, when you come across with the same idiotic drivel, people who aren't gelling with your crap are going to reply to you negatively.
If you want to know WHY I lash out at people when I do, it's because of crap like this. They earn it, it doesn't just happen. It's ******n frustrating. About a week ago, I had a line in my signature that basically said if you don't want to be treated like an idiot, stop acting like one, and I'm regretting removing it to put another link in.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
See, this is it, this is your problem, this is snakes problem. I'm not talking about your past here, I'm talking about this game's past. YOU'RE making this personal, not me.
I didn't know who the hell honest researcher was until he mentioned it, either, and he went STRAIGHT towards it being a grudge because he got the exact same reaction out of me he did before. Instead of realizing, when you come across with the same idiotic drivel, people who aren't gelling with your crap are going to reply to you negatively.
If you want to know WHY I lash out at people when I do, it's because of crap like this. It's ******n frustrating. About a week ago, I had a line in my signature that basically said if you don't want to be treated like an idiot, stop acting like one, and I'm regretting removing it to put another link in.
You were lashing out at and insulting me long before I said anything like that so that excuse won't cut it.
You've also pretty much said that you know what's best for this game better than the community does which puts you squarely in the "It only matters if I want it" crowd as far as I'm concerned. Got off your trip, lose the preconceptions, and try taking a real look at some of the ideas listed here. As I've said, the only person that seems 100% dead set against everything that's been put forth in this thread is you. Until you're willing to really look at those suggestions and take some time to think about them and what their impact on this game would be, you're not even worth the time it's taking to type this out.
Edit: It's worth noting that I've been griping about this game's difficulty to my friends since the first day I was on it and that they told me about you when I mentioned going onto the forums to say something about it. According to the rumor mill, you want this entire game to be soloable and are against implementing anything that even remotely resembles a challenge. I've been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt throughout this entire discussion but, your stance and behavior towards people with an opinion that differs from yours proves the rumors to be based in truth.
If you want to know WHY I lash out at people when I do, it's because of crap like this. They earn it, it doesn't just happen. It's ******n frustrating. About a week ago, I had a line in my signature that basically said if you don't want to be treated like an idiot, stop acting like one, and I'm regretting removing it to put another link in.
Oh take a f*****n chill pill and get off your soapbox already. While you're doing that, get off your high horse as well.
Let's face it, the only reason why you manage to get away with being abusive towards other people and treat them like crap is because moderation activitiy is at an all time low, and is sadly handled by a single moderator who is solely a volunteer.
Oh take a f*****n chill pill and get off your soapbox already.
Let's face it, the only reason why you manage to get away with being abusive towards other people and treat them like crap is because moderation activitiy is at an all time low, and is sadly handled by a single moderator who is solely a volunteer.
If he needs help I nominate myself.
I'd so moderate the fudge outta the lot of yew >:C
Vote Nepht in 2016.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Using a toon that hasn't taken all it's powers, has half it's advantage points to spend, and is using SC gear that has no mods.
Gonna suggest I take no powers at all and only use my energy builder next?
Unmodded gear is still impressive if it's purple. Try using yellows or greens. IF you're going to say you are, and you're doing it on Elite, I'm going to have to call shenanigans.
But I'm kind of dubious of you, anyway. You were just as bad as Xao in that argument but you pushed that all back on him in a bout of straight up, undiluted ad hominem. So don't mind me if I take what you say with a pinch of salt.
Oh take a f*****n chill pill and get off your soapbox already.
Let's face it, the only reason why you manage to get away with being an absolute abusive jack-donkey is towards other people because moderation activitiy is at an all time low, and is sadly handled by a single moderator who is solely a volunteer.
Just so you know, the end of the moderator wars actually helped you guys. You guys might mob up and make posts, and run your little cliques, but you know what? The people you pulled this crap on would just silently click report, usually not even as a coordinated effort. Remember how few people were actually defending Vagrant when you guys ganged up on him over something stupid? Remember who the bans went to shortly after that mess? Yeah.
Sadly, around the time that ended, many of those people also left, at least the forums... If not the game, for other reasons. I've been contacted in game a few times, even PMed, and thanked for making a post on here, because people are actually afraid of posting because they expect you to gang up and flame them. I've even been told not to quote them without permission.
The only thing better moderation would result in, is me being nicer, and a bunch of you would get re-banned. You'd go back to being nicer too, as you didn't used to call me out practically ever, because you knew people would report your post for it.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Unmodded gear is still impressive if it's purple. Try using yellows or greens. IF you're going to say you are, and you're doing it on Elite, I'm going to have to call shenanigans.
But I'm kind of dubious of you, anyway. You were just as bad as Xao in that argument but you pushed that all back on him in a bout of straight up, undiluted ad hominem. So don't mind me if I take what you say with a pinch of salt.
Not sure you even know what ad hominem means.
Kinda hard to debate someone's point when their point has pretty much been "No! I don't want it!" People have said they don't want this because of casual players. Casual players have spoken up saying they're okay with it. Others have said that it would create resentment because people running on lower difficulties because of rewards. As I've pointed out in this thread, I'm not trying to say that higher difficulties should get better rewards. I've bent over backwards to explain to people that I'm quite the opposite.
A lot of people in this thread have said they like the suggestions I've made. Rather than try to explain why he thinks it would be a bad idea, Xao went on a tirade about how I have no clue what I'm talking about without ever really addressing the actual suggestions I made. He was a jerk and I got sick of it so I was a jerk right back.
Silver Recog gear isn't really that impressive without mods. Without mods, it gives no bonuses to stats outside of things like defense. Sure, defense helps but, it doesn't improve any of my powers. Yes, I've been running on elite. Go ahead and call shennanigans all you want.
Also, you have no business pointing fingers at anyone.
He used it right. Ad Hominem literally means "against the man." Or wait, maybe it's "to the man..." Either way, basically the same thing.
I'm actually actively against abuse of that ridiculous phrase, as well as it's equally dubious brother, straw man. Both of them are used by people trying to hide their real intent, agenda, thoughts, status, ignorance, etc, and typically have no point even being used as if someone is using a so called ad hominem or straw man argument the proper way to defeat it is to prove it untrue or irrelevant.
However, I think he's using ironically, because the term is thrown around here by abusive ignorant parties so much that it's actually fun to see it turned back on them occasionally. As expected, because of their own use of it they can't really argue against it's validity, so they simply argue the meaning of it whenever it doesn't suit them.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
The only thing better moderation would result in, is me being nicer, and a bunch of you would get re-banned. You'd go back to being nicer too, as you didn't used to call me out practically ever, because you knew people would report your post for it.
You're criticizing me for a call-out?
You, the very same person known to consistently make replies to people's posts consisting of various personal attack terms like "ignorant" and "idiotic" and see justification in doing so, are criticizing me for calling out others?
Oh lordly lord, am I having a laugh riot at the hypocrisy right now.
He used it right. Ad Hominem literally means "against the man."
I'm actually actively against abuse of that ridiculous phrase, as well as it's equally dubious brother, straw man. Both of them are used by people trying to hide their real intent, agenda, thoughts, status, ignorance, etc, and typically have no point even being used as if someone is using a so called ad hominem or straw man argument the proper way to defeat it is to prove it untrue or irrelevant.
However, I think he's using ironically, because the term is thrown around here by abusive ignorant parties so much that it's actually fun to see it turned back on them occasionally. As expected, because of their own use of it they can't really argue against it's validity, so they simply argue the meaning of it whenever it doesn't suit them.
I know exactly what it means. I also know it's pretty difficult to debate someone's stance when they're not willing to address yours in their counterarguement which is what I've had to put up with from you.
I've explained what I think should be done.
I've explained why I think it should be done.
I've explained what sort of impact I think it would have on this game.
I gave examples from another game as to what kinds of changes should be made.
I've pointed to casual players that say they're okay with these changes and think they'd be good changes despite my opposition trying to claim they have the casual players in mind.
I've mentioned that I am a new player to this game and don't even know the mechanics of it well enough to min/max a character and that I essentially play what I think is fun conceptually. This would mean that claims of thinking about new players are also invalid.
All I got back despite that is claims that I'm an idiot from someone that's been throwing out any excuse they can think of until finally their only excuse was that it should never ever be done because they remember what happened in the past when other people asked for similar things. Saying that amounted to, "I will never agree with anything you say and will argue this to the grave" as far as I'm concerned. There's still the matter of basically claiming to know better than the community what it should want or ask for.
That's not ad hominem, Xao. That's getting sick of your crap.
You, the very same person known to consistently make replies to people's posts consisting of various personal attack terms like "ignorant" and "idiotic" and see justification in doing so, are criticizing me for calling out others?
Oh lordly lord, am I having a laugh riot at the hypocrisy right now.
Nonono, I'm not criticizing you for that at all. I don't rightly give a damn. I never said people have to be nice. I was simply pointing out what would have happened if you did. You want me to be hypocritical, because that would work for you, sadly that is not the case.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
That's what I said about your flat out incorrectness about everything involving CoX!
You still didn't get the part where I mentioned I don't believe in this Ad Hominem nonsense. We've both done it in this conversation, and ultimately that fact is completely irrelevant because there's true, there's false, there's right, there's wrong, and ultimately that's what matters.
Maybe it's better not to use that for a completely different set of reasons, mostly because it's entirely pointless. But you know what? It's easier than going around in a full circle because the person you're arguing with is avoiding the obvious facts or playing stupid, leading you to have to repeat what you said since it was never really addressed the first time, or responded to with "but still!"
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
That's what I said about your flat out incorrectness about everything involving CoX!
Are you seriously going to bring that up? Stop and consider this...
Your information: Old, outdated, and based on word of mouth.
My information: Based on actual current experience. You said it yourself that you never even experienced some of the things I commented on. How can you even pretend to say I was wrong?
You still didn't get the part where I mentioned I don't believe in this Ad Hominem nonsense. We've both done it in this conversation, and ultimately that fact is completely irrelevant because there's true, there's false, there's right, there's wrong, and ultimately that's what matters.
I'm sorry but, you seem to think that any of what's been said in this thread about what should or should not be implemented can actually be called factual information. It can't. All of it is opinion. Once again, how can you even pretend to say otherwise?
Maybe it's better not to use that for a completely different set of reasons, mostly because it's entirely pointless. But you know what? It's easier than going around in a full circle because the person you're arguing with is avoiding the obvious facts or playing stupid, leading you to have to repeat what you said since it was never really addressed the first time, or responded to with "but still!"
Your information: Old, but still mostly accurate, as it's based on years of gameplay experience and analysis of gameplay mechanics.
I fixed that for you.
And yes, I brought it up again, because it's what started all this. You didn't want to accept that you never really understood the game, and you also didn't want to accept that even if they completely flipped the game upside down and reversed all the stats the day after I left, it still operated the way I said it did to varying degrees for longer than CO has even existed.
The ONLY things I didn't experience that you listed was incarnate material, and to be honest I think I trust my real life friends who I know well enough to know their ability and honesty, over some random dude on the internet who's apparently part of a mob of people I'm not particularly fond of.
Let me put it this way: This is a guy who when we were kids, I used to help do the jumping puzzles in the Megaman games. He's a awesome dude, and definitely got better at Megaman as time went on. But he's not a hardcore gamer in any sense of the word, and if he can do that stuff, it's not particularly hard.
Also, almost none of what I said can be equated to opinion. You said you're new to this game, how about before telling me I'm wrong about something I've watched go down for YEARS, you do your homework? Even Kenpo said the same thing I did, even if he refused to admit it, and Squee outright agreed, despite the fact she(?) has much more hope and faith than I do.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
And yes, I brought it up again, because it's what started all this. You didn't want to accept that you never really understood the game, and you also didn't want to accept that even if they completely flipped the game upside down and reversed all the stats the day after I left, it still operated the way I said it did to varying degrees for longer than CO has even existed.
The ONLY things I didn't experience that you listed was incarnate material, and to be honest I think I trust my real life friends who I know well enough to know their ability and honesty, over some random dude on the internet who's apparently part of a mob of people I'm not particularly fond of.
Let me put it this way: This is a guy who when we were kids, I used to help do the jumping puzzles in the Megaman games. He's a awesome dude, and definitely got better at Megaman as time went on. But he's not a hardcore gamer in any sense of the word, and if he can do that stuff, it's not particularly hard.
Also, almost none of what I said can be equated to opinion. You said you're new to this game, how about before telling me I'm wrong about something I've watched go down for YEARS, you do your homework? Even Kenpo said the same thing I did, even if he refused to admit it, and Squee outright agreed, despite the fact she(?) has much more hope and faith than I do.
/e sigh
Of course. You played CoH so that means you had perfect understanding of everything in it despite the fact that you obviously avoided redside like that plague and can't even grasp why layered forms of mitigation are superior to an all or nothing mitigation that had a critical flaw implemented into the game that literally guaranteed it would fail.
This, of course, does not even touch on the fact that you're debating with someone that had multiple accounts and well over 100 characters, many of which were level capped and fully IOed who played just as long if not longer than you and soloed everything in the game outside of what was mechanically impossible to solo like Hamidon, saw more than you, and viewed things like Pylon tests and Mothership raids, which you claim were celebrated events, as that game's equivalent of going to the Powerhouse and seeing how long it takes to kill a test dummy.
EDIT: Screw it, as much as I don't care if this topic gets driven into the ground, this is still spiraling in a pointless direction again. Forget I said anything more about CoX. It's dead, and what it was relevant to has passed.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
*Looks at thread* Wow...this has sort of spun in a less than intended direction I think...
New Topic Anyone?
I said this on post #233...didnt work out so well so I'll say it again. Why? Certain people have just taken things a bit too far IMO, and it's a pity things like this happen but they do.
I guess all that needs to be done is to have slightly more intelligent Mob Behaviour, more click attacks on Cosmics and perhaps on Elite Mode give enemies some very minor defense penetration on some to all attacks. That being said, I am fine with content and difficulty slider which is there. It depends on so many things which makes this difficult. Some teams/builds are so damn efficient they can faceroll content. Hard. I've seen it before no doubt has everyone else. However this doesnt apply to everyone as a result perhaps a new difficulty could be introduced called Extreme or Dangerous which puts the power and difficulty of mobs and every foe in the instance to be as hard as Elite + Very Hard Mode.
Just a little suggestion on my part be it good or a horrific idea but this thread has spun out of control.
I said this on post #233...didnt work out so well so I'll say it again. Why? Certain people have just taken things a bit too far IMO, and it's a pity things like this happen but they do.
I'd like to think I have been pretty civil with the majority of people on this thread. I've tried to convey my thoughts and opinions in a polite manner and have listened to those expressed by others in an attempt to reach a middle ground.
Many of those people have been willing to have an open dialogue and there's been a fair amount of success at finding something that leaves everyone happy, if not overjoyed.
Some people, in this thread and others, don't seem willing to do that. I keep hearing the same responses like, "You need to challenge yourself.", even though I think I've made it clear I have. I've had to deal with people flat out insulting me even though they don't have a real grasp of what I'm saying. In other places in this forum I've had my words selectively edited and taken out of context by people saying CO is perfect as is and that it doesn't need to change even though we know that's not the case.
I've encouraged multiple friends to come give this one a try and while all these debates are going on, they're leaving. A lot already have. Why? Because even though they love the level of customization here there is nothing to challenge players and nobody teams outside of alerts which means there is very little in the way of a social aspect to it. Despite its flaws, I like CO. I want to see it improve. I want to see it become the game it could and should be, not stay as it is. For that to happen, people have to push for improvements and that includes pushing against the people that insist it should be left alone or the naysayers that keep telling others that nothing will change so why try.
To the people that are sick of me arguing with others like Xao and Auld, I do apologize but, I won't stop pushing for the changes that I think would bring improvements to this game and make it a better place for all players to enjoy.
To the people that are sick of me arguing with others like Xao and Auld, I do apologize but, I won't stop pushing for the changes that I think would bring improvements to this game and make it a better place for all players to enjoy.
Mostly all I'm gonna say to this in particular is be careful what you wish for. As someone said in another thread, Cryptic is like a Djini, even if you phrase your wishes very carefully, you're still likely to get something that is very, very much not what you want.
If this changes, then wonderful. But that's where we're at, right here, right now.
In other news, might I suggest leveling an extremely squishy high damage character in Smashes? PUGs, by the way. I'd suggest Night Warrior with a powerful maintain. You're likely to get the best (read: worst) effect on days that don't feature Smashes as the Q daily. This is because, outside of well built level 40s, almost nothing is going to be able to pull agro off you.
A few things you're gonna want to know, assuming you don't figure them out yourself:
-You can get a Shadow Strike off on Pestilence nems by standing at the very max range of shadow strike and firing it off as fast as possible. You might wish you hadn't done this afterwards, but it's doable.
-If you have a long range attack, you can hide behind crates or other objects and snipe if (when) you get agro. Basically, run behind the object when you're being targeted, when the boss drops you as his target, pop back out and shoot. If you time it right, you can make it very difficult for him to attack you, as long as he doesn't decide to chase you around the object. Also, this tactic varies against different bosses, tends to work best on ones with long charges and maintains.
-Pick up orbs. This is how you not die horribly. Try not to punch your keyboard too hard when you're at 20% health and some idiot teammate sucks up all the orbs for no reason.
-Also, go get yourself a stim addiction, pack consumable heals because green orbs don't always cut it.
EDIT: My new avatar is the guy who did this. He's decently tough now, at 40, but leveling him he was basically tissue paper that everyone wanted to sneeze on. Sniper Rifle, Two Gun Mojo and Dragons Claw as his main attacks. Used Smoke Bomb with Shadow Strike. Pretty much his only heal was Holdout Shot's advantage.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Mostly all I'm gonna say to this in particular is be careful what you wish for. As someone said in another thread, Cryptic is like a Djini, even if you phrase your wishes very carefully, you're still likely to get something that is very, very much not what you want.
If this changes, then wonderful. But that's where we're at, right here, right now.
In other news, might I suggest leveling an extremely squishy high damage character in Smashes? PUGs, by the way. I'd suggest Night Warrior with a powerful maintain. You're likely to get the best (read: worst) effect on days that don't feature Smashes as the Q daily. This is because, outside of well built level 40s, almost nothing is going to be able to pull agro off you.
A few things you're gonna want to know, assuming you don't figure them out yourself:
-You can get a Shadow Strike off on Pestilence nems by standing at the very max range of shadow strike and firing it off as fast as possible. You might wish you hadn't done this afterwards, but it's doable.
-If you have a long range attack, you can hide behind crates or other objects and snipe if (when) you get agro. Basically, run behind the object when you're being targeted, when the boss drops you as his target, pop back out and shoot. If you time it right, you can make it very difficult for him to attack you, as long as he doesn't decide to chase you around the object. Also, this tactic varies against different bosses, tends to work best on ones with long charges and maintains.
-Pick up orbs. This is how you not die horribly. Try not to punch your keyboard too hard when you're at 20% health and some idiot teammate sucks up all the orbs for no reason.
-Also, go get yourself a stim addiction, pack consumable heals because green orbs don't always cut it.
EDIT: My new avatar is the guy who did this. He's decently tough now, at 40, but leveling him he was basically tissue paper that everyone wanted to sneeze on. Sniper Rifle, Two Gun Mojo and Dragons Claw as his main attacks. Used Smoke Bomb with Shadow Strike. Pretty much his only heal was Holdout Shot's advantage.
First freeform uses Night Warrior as a passive and she tends to tank alerts unless someoen has challenging strikes.
First freeform uses Night Warrior as a passive and she tends to tank alerts unless someoen has challenging strikes.
Are we talking pre level 40 soloqueueing here? We aren't even remotely talking about the same thing if you're building them tanky either.
Because what I'm talking about, you're lucky to get a support that even stands close enough to give you an aura, Tanks with Crippling Challenge that can't pull agro off you outside of the forced agro part of the taunt, and DPS that do about a fifth of what you're doing.
I ran some basic numbers a while back for a few, and most Smash bosses have enough damage in their basic attacks alone to kill you in the time it takes an average smash PUG to put them down if you're running a low defense, low HP character. This isn't counting the damage you take from blocking special attacks and such either, or bosses like Valerian Scarlet that will just rip you straight in half, blocking or not.
It should be noted this is the experience a lot of ATs have when leveling, as well as squishy Freeforms. Solid healing is hard to come by until you're at or near 40 and some of the good defense boosting tricks require you to loop skills in the trees back into each other.
PS: Ignore dishonestresearcher. This discussion is better than anything he could ever hope to muster up.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Comments
This is pretty much what I think is needed. It means that players have to pay some atttention to what they're doing while still allowing casual players to run content at a fairly relaxed pace. It would also mean those people playing characters that are geared to a specific role would maybe want another player or two with them to provide the capabilities that their characters are weak at. I don't see this as bad at all considering that archetypes are geared to perform specific roles.
Personally, I'm against them including better gear into the game at this point. I'm very much against them having it drop only from lair bosses. We have Silver Champions gear which can easily be attained in under a week of play. Given the challenges that are currently available, it's more than enough. Adding better gear to the game would also result in the gear treadmill that people like Auld are so strongly against and that I'm not a huge fan of either. We don't need better gear added imo. We need a reason to waste our time getting the better gear that's already available.
Edit: More costume drops would be cool though. That'd give players an incentive since even if they don't care about costumes, they could sell them on the AH and use the resources gained to get better mods or pay for retcons. Hell, use them as rewards in costume contests after you get them.
\o/ <-- This is me cheering
I never said "better" I said "really really nice". Something on par with Silver Champs or whatever high end purple is available right now. Costume pieces would be nice too.
Costumes however ::b
Alrihgt. Misunderstanding on my part. I don't see that as a bad thing but, I don't really see what they could include since silver champions gear seems to have all bases covered.
Stuff with more mod slots but less base stats or it could be actual Silver Champs gear. I know in WoW currently their system involves you either getting lucky on a boss drop for the gear you want or saving up a particular currency and buying a comparable item. I don't see how it would be a bad thing to do something similar in principle here. You run lairs for tokens and if you're lucky you can get the piece you were saving up for as a drop from the end boss; making the tokens you've already saved up available to spend on something else, thus making the process quicker.
I could see SC gear being awarded as drops from lair bosses. That's already available in game and is pretty easy to get actually so, it's not like they'd be creating a gear treadmill through including it as drops. Gear with more mod slots is something I'm a little wary of seeing as that edges into the gear treadmill that many people want to avoid.
Another possible option is Rank 6 and higher mods being used as drops from lair bosses. As far as I know, the only way to currently get a rank 6 is to buy it with sc recog or fuse one with fusing being the only way to get anything higher than that. It can't really be called a gear treadmill since there's already ways to get those mods in game and given the rates they ask for at the Z store, I really doubt that including it is going to cut into their sales too much. I know I consider the prices for catalysts to be a complete ripoff and really doubt many people buy them.
And I play super mmos for the epic action. Can we both have what we want?
^@nepth, v@everyone---
So far no one has really provided any good reason why the game can't have both ezmode content, and more challenging content... with some sort of "thing" that lets you pick how you want the game to be... like... maybe something that slides... like those whistles.
Not surprising, since how can anyone answer a question when they've got headphones on that are playing stuff that some other person said years ago on an infinite loop?
Another question. If they slapped a sticker on your car that said "Expensive Sports Car"... would that make you think you drive an expensive sports car? If not, then why do you feel so cool for playing on a difficulty that's called "Elite" when everyone knows it really isn't?
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
This.
Too many people respond to threads like this with comments like, "But if you make the higher difficulties harder than I won't be unkillable."
If you want to be an unstoppable titan, stick to normal difficulty. That's what it's there for.
If you want to claim to be elite, prove it. Show that you're able to take on something that's actually a challenge.
I have. You just keep plugging your ears
Oh, it's quite possible for such a thing to exist. In fact, prior to On Alert, in Whiteout we had an instance of both what you're talking about, and what Nepht is talking about, at the same time. Remember when you used to get absolutely swarmed by the Roinesh at certain points, and it was balls hard but still winnable? You'd come out on top with less a quarter of your health and feel like "**** YEAH."
Consider that all that got wiped away by a change that had nothing directly to do with it. Now consider that the entire game has always been a chaotic mess in terms of difficulty, ranging from absurdly hard to complete cakewalk. Now realize how much work it would be to rework all the existing content's difficulty, and create special stuff for each separate mob group in the game based off your difficult setting, possibly even for different bits of specific content. Now consider the extra work it would take to tweak it so that you have actual content that's harder or easier.
Maybe for another development team this would be a doable task. But seeing as we never even got that special boss fight we were told we were getting for Elite Apocalypse Aversion, or that lair review we've been waiting for, it's extraordinarily unlikely that they have resources to dedicate to this. To make matters worse, the masses are begging for new zones, the foundry, more APs, Super Group bases and more, and at least the content related options are absolutely necessary by nature of being an MMO.
If you're lucky, you'll see some special gimmicks thrown in here or there for Elite versions of future content. If you're really, really lucky, you'll see the difficulty slider be reworked to apply as a debuff on the player somehow, and that's it. What's more than likely, is we get more Alerts, which aren't effected by the difficulty slider at all. It's absolutely insane to expect that we'll see entire chunks of the existing content get updates, especially with the fact the dev team has spent way too much time reworking old content anyway.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Then you demand that they start reinvesting back into this game. Anyone thinking that CO isn't making Cryptic money just hasn't put much thought into it. We are making them money. They're just putting it towards projects outside of this game. Maybe it's time to start demanding they reinvest what they're making off us back into us.
A number of folks have. The same number of ears keep getting fingers in them though.
Wait? Whaaaa..?
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
We've tried. I'm extremely doubtful it's going to happen with PWE.
PWE doesn't care about hope, wishes or goodwill, they care about the bottom line. This isn't VALVe we're talking about here, that will put a game in development for ten years because they're not happy with it. As a result we will see no sort of investment until something is done to pull the game up to whatever that bottom line is, be it arbitrary or not. If they think NW is a better allocation of funds, then that's where they will continue to go.
Want PWE to stop treating this game like the redheaded stepchild of the pack? Then start asking for things that we know everyone can enjoy. Which doesn't include enemies with 3000% HP. As long as we keep bugging them for things that aren't going to garner a wider appeal and result in more people sticking around and spending money, this game isn't going to see a reinvestment. It's going to be treated like a 3 year old failure on life support.
You'll realize what I'm saying when you consider why we got vehicles so quickly, why they are sub par, and why they cost so much. PWE doesn't consider this game a serious platform for quality development.
They are quite the synchronized mob, huh?
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
I never asked for more HP. That'd be just as pointless as the suggestions of people that we use lesser gear or none at all. It doesn't make things more challenging or fun. It makes them tedious and boring.
I don't think that they think this game isn't deserving of quality development. I think the people that keep arguing against any type of improvement to this game make them think that you're all willing to settle for low quality development. Giiven the current state of things, I also think they're right.
Stop treating the devs like they ride the short bus. This isn't the special olympics, you don't get applause just for participating.
Your message seems to be "this game sucks, it's going to continue to suck, and there's nothing anyone here there or anywhere can do to change that, so just deal with it". Which begs the question, why are you here?
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
They moved developers off our game to work on that one. Point is, if they valued our game as much as that one, they wouldn't have done this. VALVe did this once they I can remember, only for a month or so to help them wrap up, and the game they moved people off of was a game that wasn't even subscription based. They also told the entire community about it when it happened, sort of apologizing ahead of time, and when they came back immediately started work on a nice big update.
That's what Snake did, and as I mentioned before it's one of the easier options. AI is hard work, new mob powers and gimmicks require at least some, slapping more damage/HP/stats onto a mob is cheap and easy. It's also boring and not really difficult as much as unfair past a certain point.
For the most part, no one is arguing against improvements, we're arguing against the focus of it. People have asked for quality, wide appeal items all over these forums, what we need is to get Cryptic to focus on these things. We did it with bugs, sort of, I think we can do better.
Yes, this means we may have to wait on some things we personally want. I want the foundry, but I don't want it to be vehicles all over. We may actually have to go without some of what comes in our flavor of the week updates for a while so they can work on bigger, higher quality material.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
I'm not, I never said that.
You think figuring out how to please a huge crowd of people who appear to have wildly varying wants is easy. It's not. Which is why we need to stop asking for everything but the kitchen sink, and giving them crappy options that when they get up the chain to PWE get green flagged immediately because they can make an easy dollar off it.
Even so, other developers have learned how to shut out the noise and figure out where the patterns repeat in order to come to solid conclusions on what should be prioritized. You get a handful of people together to make a game, and you can't expect every last one of them is good at everything, and priorities is a weak point of this game whether you want to admit it or not. There are so many things they said we were going to get that were completely forgotten about that it's painfully obvious that there's at least some issue with prioritizing.
Fact is, there are certain things that everyone can agree the game needs. This needs to be what we focus on asking for, and we need to settle for nothing less. I've nearly completely stopped asking for anything but this sort of stuff lately, including going back and saying the foundry shouldn't be rushed.
I don't think there's nothing anyone can do about it, but I think we both know the game is in a rut. It's always had a hard time.
And the reason I'm still here is actually because a couple of my RL friends are once again talking about coming back to this game, now that CoX is completely shut down. These people are a bunch that actually have their ******n heads screwed on straight for the most part, a rare trait if I've ever seen one, and I tend to not like to piss them off by randomly ditching them.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
I have no problem with waiting for quality. I have no problem with waiting in line for my turn as far as the things I want to see looked at in this game.
Personally, I could care less about the foundry. Thanks to my experiences with AE in CoH and seeing how it was handled there, I think the inclusion of it is pretty meh rather than the miracle cure all that it's proponents see it as. I've noticed from following the threads on it that I'm not the only one that thinks so and that includes people that have experience with STO's foundry. It's not that I think it's a bad thing that shouldn't be included in this game. I just don't consider it a priority.
As far as what people personally want goes... look through this thread. There seem to be a number of people that are in favor of the suggestions I've made ranging from casual players, min/maxxers, new players, and established vets. Even some people that were against a change in the difficulty sliders came around once an open dialigue was established. The only voice that seems to be dead set against it no matter what is yours. Maybe it's time to stop stressing over what was asked for by players in the past and look at this thread again without the preconceptions?
Take an honest look around, and you'll see we're not asking for much. In the past, they've proven they love to do overhauls of this game, so naturally we expect them to happily do it again.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
The fact is to forget the past, is to repeat mistakes. We've been down this road, we've seen that higher difficulty is NOT a majority of appeal, despite it garnering support on the forums from all sorts of parties (including myself at one point). While it may be a valid thing to pursue with spare resources, as a focus it's folly.
A mob is a mob. People can be in agreement on something that is flat out wrong, especially when they have bad leadership or a lack of understanding of the situation at hand.
We've asked for...
The Foundry.
Bug Fixes.
New Zones.
New APs.
Vehicles.
Level Cap Raise.
Supergroup Bases.
New Costume Sets.
Crowd Control Rework.
Difficulty Rework.
More of the Various Powerset Reworks.
Lair Reworks
...And I'm gonna stop there, because honestly I could probably double the size of this list without trying. That's enough to prove the point.
Also, do you really want to encourage them to do more reworks? This is what I mean, people have even mentioned this problem on the PTS forums a few times since on alert. They spend too much time reworking stuff, often creating all new assets for existing content that could have gone to new content.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Meh. You seem to be forgetting that I'm new, Xao. I have no past on this game for you to try to remember. Instead you try to lump me in with some beef you had with other players, some of which probably aren't even around anymore, and want to tag me with all the baggage you have with those people. It's fine. I get it. You're part of "The only things that matter are what matter to me" crowd and you'll grasp at any straw you can find to be the voice of dissent. I've made repeated attempts to have an actual dialogue with people on this forum and you basically keep saying, "No. Other people did things I don't like and that means everyone is wrong." At least now I know you're not worth trying to have a discussion. You've proven in this thread and others that you're not willing to have a real discussion so consider yourself a nonentity.
Using a toon that hasn't taken all it's powers, has half it's advantage points to spend, and is using SC gear that has no mods.
Gonna suggest I take no powers at all and only use my energy builder next?
See, this is it, this is your problem, this is snakes problem. I'm not talking about your past here, I'm talking about this game's past. YOU'RE making this personal, not me.
I didn't know who the hell honest researcher was until he mentioned it, either, and he went STRAIGHT towards it being a grudge because he got the exact same reaction out of me he did before. Instead of realizing, when you come across with the same idiotic drivel, people who aren't gelling with your crap are going to reply to you negatively.
If you want to know WHY I lash out at people when I do, it's because of crap like this. They earn it, it doesn't just happen. It's ******n frustrating. About a week ago, I had a line in my signature that basically said if you don't want to be treated like an idiot, stop acting like one, and I'm regretting removing it to put another link in.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
You were lashing out at and insulting me long before I said anything like that so that excuse won't cut it.
You've also pretty much said that you know what's best for this game better than the community does which puts you squarely in the "It only matters if I want it" crowd as far as I'm concerned. Got off your trip, lose the preconceptions, and try taking a real look at some of the ideas listed here. As I've said, the only person that seems 100% dead set against everything that's been put forth in this thread is you. Until you're willing to really look at those suggestions and take some time to think about them and what their impact on this game would be, you're not even worth the time it's taking to type this out.
Edit: It's worth noting that I've been griping about this game's difficulty to my friends since the first day I was on it and that they told me about you when I mentioned going onto the forums to say something about it. According to the rumor mill, you want this entire game to be soloable and are against implementing anything that even remotely resembles a challenge. I've been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt throughout this entire discussion but, your stance and behavior towards people with an opinion that differs from yours proves the rumors to be based in truth.
Oh take a f*****n chill pill and get off your soapbox already. While you're doing that, get off your high horse as well.
Let's face it, the only reason why you manage to get away with being abusive towards other people and treat them like crap is because moderation activitiy is at an all time low, and is sadly handled by a single moderator who is solely a volunteer.
If he needs help I nominate myself.
I'd so moderate the fudge outta the lot of yew >:C
Vote Nepht in 2016.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
But I'm kind of dubious of you, anyway. You were just as bad as Xao in that argument but you pushed that all back on him in a bout of straight up, undiluted ad hominem. So don't mind me if I take what you say with a pinch of salt.
Just so you know, the end of the moderator wars actually helped you guys. You guys might mob up and make posts, and run your little cliques, but you know what? The people you pulled this crap on would just silently click report, usually not even as a coordinated effort. Remember how few people were actually defending Vagrant when you guys ganged up on him over something stupid? Remember who the bans went to shortly after that mess? Yeah.
Sadly, around the time that ended, many of those people also left, at least the forums... If not the game, for other reasons. I've been contacted in game a few times, even PMed, and thanked for making a post on here, because people are actually afraid of posting because they expect you to gang up and flame them. I've even been told not to quote them without permission.
The only thing better moderation would result in, is me being nicer, and a bunch of you would get re-banned. You'd go back to being nicer too, as you didn't used to call me out practically ever, because you knew people would report your post for it.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Not sure you even know what ad hominem means.
Kinda hard to debate someone's point when their point has pretty much been "No! I don't want it!" People have said they don't want this because of casual players. Casual players have spoken up saying they're okay with it. Others have said that it would create resentment because people running on lower difficulties because of rewards. As I've pointed out in this thread, I'm not trying to say that higher difficulties should get better rewards. I've bent over backwards to explain to people that I'm quite the opposite.
A lot of people in this thread have said they like the suggestions I've made. Rather than try to explain why he thinks it would be a bad idea, Xao went on a tirade about how I have no clue what I'm talking about without ever really addressing the actual suggestions I made. He was a jerk and I got sick of it so I was a jerk right back.
Silver Recog gear isn't really that impressive without mods. Without mods, it gives no bonuses to stats outside of things like defense. Sure, defense helps but, it doesn't improve any of my powers. Yes, I've been running on elite. Go ahead and call shennanigans all you want.
Also, you have no business pointing fingers at anyone.
He used it right. Ad Hominem literally means "against the man." Or wait, maybe it's "to the man..." Either way, basically the same thing.
I'm actually actively against abuse of that ridiculous phrase, as well as it's equally dubious brother, straw man. Both of them are used by people trying to hide their real intent, agenda, thoughts, status, ignorance, etc, and typically have no point even being used as if someone is using a so called ad hominem or straw man argument the proper way to defeat it is to prove it untrue or irrelevant.
However, I think he's using ironically, because the term is thrown around here by abusive ignorant parties so much that it's actually fun to see it turned back on them occasionally. As expected, because of their own use of it they can't really argue against it's validity, so they simply argue the meaning of it whenever it doesn't suit them.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
You're criticizing me for a call-out?
You, the very same person known to consistently make replies to people's posts consisting of various personal attack terms like "ignorant" and "idiotic" and see justification in doing so, are criticizing me for calling out others?
Oh lordly lord, am I having a laugh riot at the hypocrisy right now.
I know exactly what it means. I also know it's pretty difficult to debate someone's stance when they're not willing to address yours in their counterarguement which is what I've had to put up with from you.
I've explained what I think should be done.
I've explained why I think it should be done.
I've explained what sort of impact I think it would have on this game.
I gave examples from another game as to what kinds of changes should be made.
I've pointed to casual players that say they're okay with these changes and think they'd be good changes despite my opposition trying to claim they have the casual players in mind.
I've mentioned that I am a new player to this game and don't even know the mechanics of it well enough to min/max a character and that I essentially play what I think is fun conceptually. This would mean that claims of thinking about new players are also invalid.
All I got back despite that is claims that I'm an idiot from someone that's been throwing out any excuse they can think of until finally their only excuse was that it should never ever be done because they remember what happened in the past when other people asked for similar things. Saying that amounted to, "I will never agree with anything you say and will argue this to the grave" as far as I'm concerned. There's still the matter of basically claiming to know better than the community what it should want or ask for.
That's not ad hominem, Xao. That's getting sick of your crap.
Nonono, I'm not criticizing you for that at all. I don't rightly give a damn. I never said people have to be nice. I was simply pointing out what would have happened if you did. You want me to be hypocritical, because that would work for you, sadly that is not the case.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Wait? Whaaaa..?
That's what I said about your flat out incorrectness about everything involving CoX!
You still didn't get the part where I mentioned I don't believe in this Ad Hominem nonsense. We've both done it in this conversation, and ultimately that fact is completely irrelevant because there's true, there's false, there's right, there's wrong, and ultimately that's what matters.
Maybe it's better not to use that for a completely different set of reasons, mostly because it's entirely pointless. But you know what? It's easier than going around in a full circle because the person you're arguing with is avoiding the obvious facts or playing stupid, leading you to have to repeat what you said since it was never really addressed the first time, or responded to with "but still!"
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Are you seriously going to bring that up? Stop and consider this...
Your information: Old, outdated, and based on word of mouth.
My information: Based on actual current experience. You said it yourself that you never even experienced some of the things I commented on. How can you even pretend to say I was wrong?
I'm sorry but, you seem to think that any of what's been said in this thread about what should or should not be implemented can actually be called factual information. It can't. All of it is opinion. Once again, how can you even pretend to say otherwise?
Good advice. I'll use it when dealing with you.
I fixed that for you.
And yes, I brought it up again, because it's what started all this. You didn't want to accept that you never really understood the game, and you also didn't want to accept that even if they completely flipped the game upside down and reversed all the stats the day after I left, it still operated the way I said it did to varying degrees for longer than CO has even existed.
The ONLY things I didn't experience that you listed was incarnate material, and to be honest I think I trust my real life friends who I know well enough to know their ability and honesty, over some random dude on the internet who's apparently part of a mob of people I'm not particularly fond of.
Let me put it this way: This is a guy who when we were kids, I used to help do the jumping puzzles in the Megaman games. He's a awesome dude, and definitely got better at Megaman as time went on. But he's not a hardcore gamer in any sense of the word, and if he can do that stuff, it's not particularly hard.
Also, almost none of what I said can be equated to opinion. You said you're new to this game, how about before telling me I'm wrong about something I've watched go down for YEARS, you do your homework? Even Kenpo said the same thing I did, even if he refused to admit it, and Squee outright agreed, despite the fact she(?) has much more hope and faith than I do.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
/e sigh
Of course. You played CoH so that means you had perfect understanding of everything in it despite the fact that you obviously avoided redside like that plague and can't even grasp why layered forms of mitigation are superior to an all or nothing mitigation that had a critical flaw implemented into the game that literally guaranteed it would fail.
This, of course, does not even touch on the fact that you're debating with someone that had multiple accounts and well over 100 characters, many of which were level capped and fully IOed who played just as long if not longer than you and soloed everything in the game outside of what was mechanically impossible to solo like Hamidon, saw more than you, and viewed things like Pylon tests and Mothership raids, which you claim were celebrated events, as that game's equivalent of going to the Powerhouse and seeing how long it takes to kill a test dummy.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
I said this on post #233...didnt work out so well so I'll say it again. Why? Certain people have just taken things a bit too far IMO, and it's a pity things like this happen but they do.
I guess all that needs to be done is to have slightly more intelligent Mob Behaviour, more click attacks on Cosmics and perhaps on Elite Mode give enemies some very minor defense penetration on some to all attacks. That being said, I am fine with content and difficulty slider which is there. It depends on so many things which makes this difficult. Some teams/builds are so damn efficient they can faceroll content. Hard. I've seen it before no doubt has everyone else. However this doesnt apply to everyone as a result perhaps a new difficulty could be introduced called Extreme or Dangerous which puts the power and difficulty of mobs and every foe in the instance to be as hard as Elite + Very Hard Mode.
Just a little suggestion on my part be it good or a horrific idea but this thread has spun out of control.
My Characters on PRIMUS
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I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
I'd like to think I have been pretty civil with the majority of people on this thread. I've tried to convey my thoughts and opinions in a polite manner and have listened to those expressed by others in an attempt to reach a middle ground.
Many of those people have been willing to have an open dialogue and there's been a fair amount of success at finding something that leaves everyone happy, if not overjoyed.
Some people, in this thread and others, don't seem willing to do that. I keep hearing the same responses like, "You need to challenge yourself.", even though I think I've made it clear I have. I've had to deal with people flat out insulting me even though they don't have a real grasp of what I'm saying. In other places in this forum I've had my words selectively edited and taken out of context by people saying CO is perfect as is and that it doesn't need to change even though we know that's not the case.
I've encouraged multiple friends to come give this one a try and while all these debates are going on, they're leaving. A lot already have. Why? Because even though they love the level of customization here there is nothing to challenge players and nobody teams outside of alerts which means there is very little in the way of a social aspect to it. Despite its flaws, I like CO. I want to see it improve. I want to see it become the game it could and should be, not stay as it is. For that to happen, people have to push for improvements and that includes pushing against the people that insist it should be left alone or the naysayers that keep telling others that nothing will change so why try.
To the people that are sick of me arguing with others like Xao and Auld, I do apologize but, I won't stop pushing for the changes that I think would bring improvements to this game and make it a better place for all players to enjoy.
Good
I dont know any ten letter words that mean good.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Excellent!
And now you know. :biggrin:
Punctuation is cheating.:biggrin:
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Mostly all I'm gonna say to this in particular is be careful what you wish for. As someone said in another thread, Cryptic is like a Djini, even if you phrase your wishes very carefully, you're still likely to get something that is very, very much not what you want.
If this changes, then wonderful. But that's where we're at, right here, right now.
In other news, might I suggest leveling an extremely squishy high damage character in Smashes? PUGs, by the way. I'd suggest Night Warrior with a powerful maintain. You're likely to get the best (read: worst) effect on days that don't feature Smashes as the Q daily. This is because, outside of well built level 40s, almost nothing is going to be able to pull agro off you.
A few things you're gonna want to know, assuming you don't figure them out yourself:
-You can get a Shadow Strike off on Pestilence nems by standing at the very max range of shadow strike and firing it off as fast as possible. You might wish you hadn't done this afterwards, but it's doable.
-If you have a long range attack, you can hide behind crates or other objects and snipe if (when) you get agro. Basically, run behind the object when you're being targeted, when the boss drops you as his target, pop back out and shoot. If you time it right, you can make it very difficult for him to attack you, as long as he doesn't decide to chase you around the object. Also, this tactic varies against different bosses, tends to work best on ones with long charges and maintains.
-Pick up orbs. This is how you not die horribly. Try not to punch your keyboard too hard when you're at 20% health and some idiot teammate sucks up all the orbs for no reason.
-Also, go get yourself a stim addiction, pack consumable heals because green orbs don't always cut it.
EDIT: My new avatar is the guy who did this. He's decently tough now, at 40, but leveling him he was basically tissue paper that everyone wanted to sneeze on. Sniper Rifle, Two Gun Mojo and Dragons Claw as his main attacks. Used Smoke Bomb with Shadow Strike. Pretty much his only heal was Holdout Shot's advantage.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
First freeform uses Night Warrior as a passive and she tends to tank alerts unless someoen has challenging strikes.
Are we talking pre level 40 soloqueueing here? We aren't even remotely talking about the same thing if you're building them tanky either.
Because what I'm talking about, you're lucky to get a support that even stands close enough to give you an aura, Tanks with Crippling Challenge that can't pull agro off you outside of the forced agro part of the taunt, and DPS that do about a fifth of what you're doing.
I ran some basic numbers a while back for a few, and most Smash bosses have enough damage in their basic attacks alone to kill you in the time it takes an average smash PUG to put them down if you're running a low defense, low HP character. This isn't counting the damage you take from blocking special attacks and such either, or bosses like Valerian Scarlet that will just rip you straight in half, blocking or not.
It should be noted this is the experience a lot of ATs have when leveling, as well as squishy Freeforms. Solid healing is hard to come by until you're at or near 40 and some of the good defense boosting tricks require you to loop skills in the trees back into each other.
PS: Ignore dishonestresearcher. This discussion is better than anything he could ever hope to muster up.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."