You are quite petty and foolish, you obviously aren't reading the posts, my several last posts were bringing up overpowered ranged attacks with Night Warrior and how I wanted it to be a MELEE passive, I also agreed for an incombat cooldown on sneak, but you are too busy cuddling your precious Bestial set to actually look at numbers we have now, such as 25k critting Eagle rifle at 120 feet range, or 16k defiles while stealthed at 100 feet, and again, 30k crit per target Unleashed Rage using Enrage, Brawler mode, and Electric sheath
That's critting...
Did I mention that ranged attacks only get the bonus 50% not the full damage.
By the way, while we're being oblivious, You can in fact get a BIGGER total bonus by picking a ranged passive, snipe at 100 ft, and DO THE SAME THING.
"[19:38] [Combat (Self)] Your VB-A1A "Eagle" Blaster Rifle deals 26251 Particle Damage to Test Dummy."
I'm ok with this, especially since sniper puts me out of range of combat so i can continuously use stealth again and always fire with the sneak bonus and never have to fight anything in the game ever again now.
I suppose this will have to do as my munitions pass i've been waiting for for three years. Thanks.
You mean *gasp*, we'll need to use teamwork?
You mean that.... in Black Ops, it's not fair when I snipe and kill someone in one shot, then have half the other team hunting me down?
That, you can target large areas with PBAoE and knock someone out of stealth.
Not able to get again to test it currently; has anyone tried the new Villain Alerts yet?
Just mainly curious if those things even load and are completeable so I don't have to hear "after-market" complaints on the boards that no one tests anything with this game.
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The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"
You mean that.... in Black Ops, it's not fair when I snipe and kill someone in one shot, then have half the other team hunting me down?
That, you can target large areas with PBAoE and knock someone out of stealth.
That, you'll have to use tactics...
Oh noes....
PBAoEs aren't "large areas", especially against something with 120ft range. And with perception gear borked, it's going to be like searching for a needle in a haystack. With a bunch of haystacks shooting at you.
None of the above really matters though, since the only enemies that intelligently hunt you when you attack are other players, and no one PvPs anymore.
The main problem is that he can use that tactic against enemies. When he mentioned "never having to fight anything in the game ever again", he wasn't talking about in PvP, I assure you.
And, seriously. Mentioning a Call of Duty game in any sort of balance or tactics discussion?
With running base stats of 5 on everything the tooltip reads:
Shadow Strike(not in stealth, standing idle):
This power deals 157 slashing damage.(Rank 1)
This power deals 161 slashing damage.(Rank 2)
This power deals 165 slashing damage.(Rank 3)
Shadow Strike(in stealth, standing idle):
This power deals 6,892 slashing damage.(Rank 1)
This power deals 7,948 slashing damage.(Rank 2)
This power deals 8.959 slashing damage.(Rank 3)
Running Prime SS DEX 317 / STR 183 / EGO 183 (all Heirloom gear) / Night Avenger Innate (str/dex/ego) the tooltip reads:
Shadow Strike(not in stealth, standing idle):
This power deals 348 slashing damage.(Rank 1)
This power deals 358 slashing damage.(Rank 2)
This power deals 369 slashing damage.(Rank 3)
Shadow Strike(in stealth, standing idle):
This power deals 12,139 slashing damage.(Rank 1)
This power deals 12,959 slashing damage.(Rank 2)
This power deals 13,727 slashing damage.(Rank 3)
What about this isnt overpowered? :rolleyes:
Lets not even talk about Primary SS END with Outburst from its spec tree causing it to cost 573 energy.
You mean that.... in Black Ops, it's not fair when I snipe and kill someone in one shot, then have half the other team hunting me down?
That, you can target large areas with PBAoE and knock someone out of stealth.
That, you'll have to use tactics...
Oh noes....
Yea, tactics :rolleyes: Let us know how that works in an auto target, auto hit, and never miss scenario. Please, don't try to sell cheese and overpowered as tactical.
Yea, tactics :rolleyes: Let us know how that works in an auto target, auto hit, and never miss scenario. Please, don't try to sell cheese and overpowered as tactical.
Preaching to the choir here. I'm so surprised no one has said it so bluntly before. One of the only times I agree with how you've presented your arguments.
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The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"
Did I mention that ranged attacks only get the bonus 50% not the full damage.
By the way, while we're being oblivious, You can in fact get a BIGGER total bonus by picking a ranged passive, snipe at 100 ft, and DO THE SAME THING.
Pretty much this, really.
Not to mention getting rediculous crits at max range on multiple people with FC...
The passive buffing range is fine, stop trying to kill more customization.
The passive is hands down superior to all,offensive passives in the game.
Losing a small amount off additive buff is a cheap price to pay for all the benefits night warrior provides.
It needs to be reduced across the board.
IMhO, we don't need another "passive" until the rest of the "passives" get a "pass"
We got a "form" pass, now we need a "passive pass" before we start adding any new mechanics (upgrading "sneak") to the game
IMhO, we don't need another "passive" until the rest of the "passives" get a "pass"
We got a "form" pass, now we need a "passive pass" before we start adding any new mechanics (upgrading "sneak") to the game
In its current state, I will want a free spec for all my toons.
They will all be rebuilt to use night warriror, and my DPS will go up in every case, and my survivability will go up on all my ranged toons.
Not able to get again to test it currently; has anyone tried the new Villain Alerts yet?
Just mainly curious if those things even load and are completeable so I don't have to hear "after-market" complaints on the boards that no one tests anything with this game.
I've tried queueing for them several times, with no effect. We'll see if it gets better when the queueing issues are settled and the alerts are locked down, hopefully they won't go live buggy.
I've heard one player comment that the character models for the new villains look pretty good, haven't heard much from anyone beyond that.
Shadow Strike(not in stealth, standing idle):
This power deals 348 slashing damage.(Rank 1)
This power deals 358 slashing damage.(Rank 2)
This power deals 369 slashing damage.(Rank 3)
Shadow Strike(in stealth, standing idle):
This power deals 12,139 slashing damage.(Rank 1)
This power deals 12,959 slashing damage.(Rank 2)
This power deals 13,727 slashing damage.(Rank 3)
What about this isnt overpowered? :rolleyes:
Lets not even talk about Primary SS END with Outburst from its spec tree causing it to cost 573 energy.
I dont see the numbers you posted as over powered but maybe im missing something.
This is exactingly what i would expect from an assassin strike power.
People are posting like 50k shadow strikes and you complain 13k dmg on a 90sec cooldown? Need i remind you than plenty of builds can do 13k+ damage on live rite now.
Even if Shadow strike is over powered, this post does nothing to prove it, a point i will revisit in a moment.....
The passive is hands down superior to all,offensive passives in the game.
Losing a small amount off additive buff is a cheap price to pay for all the benefits night warrior provides.
It needs to be reduced across the board.
You say that but i wont be convinced until you show the proof. I assume that you tested the same builds side by side with respective passives? If you did, why take all that time to test and not share the results (NUMBERS) with us (and the devs).
The point I'm trying to make is that if you want to establish the if a power is balanced, you have to compare relevant powers/builds with numbers. Saying its "too good" or "better than every thing" is like when advertiser say "50% more cleaning power". 50% more than what??? Constructive criticism of NW = comparing relevant powers/builds with numbers.
Nerf herding NW= saying "its better than every thing" without comparing it to anything.
Nerf herding doesn't help balance the game.
Ill provide examples in my next post.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
I dont see the numbers you posted as over powered but maybe im missing something.
This is exactingly what i would expect from an assassin strike power.
People are posting like 50k shadow strikes and you complain 13k dmg on a 90sec cooldown? Need i remind you than plenty of builds can do 13k+ damage on live rite now.
Even if Shadow strike is over powered, this post does nothing to prove it, a point i will revisit in a moment.....
Yea, that's called bait and switch tactics you use there. Since your logic also precludes the fact that people can take a 90 second power and cut the time in half without much investment, and go even further than that with a bit of investment. In short, you are trying too hard to sell this as balanced, when it is the furthest thing from.
You say that but i wont be convinced until you show the proof. I assume that you tested the same builds side by side with respective passives? If you did, why take all that time to test and not share the results (NUMBERS) with us (and the devs).
The point I'm trying to make is that if you want to establish the if a power is balanced, you have to compare relevant powers/builds with numbers. Saying its "too good" or "better than every thing" is like when advertiser say "50% more cleaning power". 50% more than what??? Constructive criticism of NW = comparing relevant powers/builds with numbers.
Nerf herding NW= saying "its better than every thing" without comparing it to anything.
Nerf herding doesn't help balance the game.
Ill provide examples in my next post.
Yes, because if you can't have it your way, ignore all the posts showing you the proof and keep rambling on like everything is balanced and working as intended. :rolleyes: So far you haven't been constructive and in fact been outright hostile to anyone posting proof trying to discredit their proof. That's called being a hypocrite.
Tactics have little or nothing to do with auto-target, auto hit, cannot miss.
Some of the most tactical and strategic games ever created do not have the option to miss an attack.
Yea... uh no they don't. First off, auto hit means there is no way to miss. Once the target is targeted, you can't miss even if you turned around. Secondly there is no strategy against this, especially with travel powers like flight and such, and considering the extreme range of the sniper in question, the suggestion of just randomly tossing AEs in the time it would take to fire a sniper shot is both ludicrous and shows lack of any thinking. And all things considered, unless people have extreme hit points, this is a one shot in PvP, even through block. So, exactly at what point does strategy come into play?
This isn't an RTS where the game is divided out into turns and you have ways to provide defense. There is no defense versus this type of tactic that is viable and actually workable. Unless the sniper in question is a complete idiot, it's unlikely to ever happen.
You want people to start PvPing, not force more people away from a bland environment. Things like this don't help the PvP cause they kill it because of the unskilled nature of it.
Yea... uh no they don't. First off, auto hit means there is no way to miss. Once the target is targeted, you can't miss even if you turned around. Secondly there is no strategy against this, especially with travel powers like flight and such, and considering the extreme range of the sniper in question, the suggestion of just randomly tossing AEs in the time it would take to fire a sniper shot is both ludicrous and shows lack of any thinking. And all things considered, unless people have extreme hit points, this is a one shot in PvP, even through block. So, exactly at what point does strategy come into play?
This isn't an RTS where the game is divided out into turns and you have ways to provide defense. There is no defense versus this type of tactic that is viable and actually workable. Unless the sniper in question is a complete idiot, it's unlikely to ever happen.
You want people to start PvPing, not force more people away from a bland environment. Things like this don't help the PvP cause they kill it because of the unskilled nature of it.
Nothing there at all addresses the fact that auto hit and such have little to do with tactics or strategy, and that some of the most tactical/strategic games ever created have no chance, random or otherwise, to miss with a delivered attack.
Nothing there at all addresses the fact that auto hit and such have little to do with tactics or strategy, and that some of the most tactical/strategic games ever created have no chance, random or otherwise, to miss with a delivered attack.
Yea it did, you just chose to ignore that fact. Sorry, you did.
Yes, because if you can't have it your way, ignore all the posts showing you the proof and keep rambling on like everything is balanced and working as intended. :rolleyes: So far you haven't been constructive and in fact been outright hostile to anyone posting proof trying to discredit their proof. That's called being a hypocrite.
I may be biased towards NW because makes you a stalker and COX was my only other MMO experience.
If you have some ideas of an alternate way to approach NW then don't let any one stop you. Considering how tight these PTS schedules are, the sooner any feedback gets in, the more likely it will be considered.
Feel free to quote me being hostile to some one in this thread..... if you can. Also if any one feels that i have been hostile to them feel free to speak up.
At any rate, the posts that i criticized, (note: criticizing isn't hostility) made claims without posting numbers or power/build comparisons so there is no proof to ignore. Just like you have shone no proof of my alleged hostility or even managed to grasp the fact that i don't think NW is balanced.
Also, i haven't been posting numbers because i don't have any lv 40s (and thus don't have any non debugger gear at high levels), so i wont be able to push these powers like other players can. I thought i had mentioned this on the forums but i have also been chating with ppl directly on PTS so i must have got confused. Fear not though, my next post will have powers and numbers comparisons.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
This new sneak seems good though I wonder if it will be worthwhile as you only get to use it once at the start of a fight. Unless im missing something...
Yea, that's called bait and switch tactics you use there. Since your logic also precludes the fact that people can take a 90 second power and cut the time in half without much investment, and go even further than that with a bit of investment. In short, you are trying too hard to sell this as balanced, when it is the furthest thing from.
Yes, because if you can't have it your way, ignore all the posts showing you the proof and keep rambling on like everything is balanced and working as intended. :rolleyes: So far you haven't been constructive and in fact been outright hostile to anyone posting proof trying to discredit their proof. That's called being a hypocrite.
You must have trouble understanding people, because your statements are rather incompetant. If you read what he was saying, he was saying that the numbers provided were not showing if the power was overpowered or not, a power that requires sneak on and to be in 10 foot range, a 13k hit from a melee power is outdoable infact, Dragon's Claw is a 16k hit on crit, or better yet, Defile, 16k crit, or lets go back to my /favorite/ power, Unleashed Rage, capable of 30k crits per target (max 10), but god forbid we fix a might power, even one that dominates so many ingame aspects, he was also telling the player that his statements were not backed with actual numbers, so they weren't helpful at all, he wanted to SEE what makes Night Warrior so much better as a passive, and now, you are most likely going to acuse me once again of trying to prove to you the power is balanced or not, because you lack the competance of understanding, when actually I'm trying to help you actually understand what was being said.
Is chess not a tactical game? Does it not require strategy? I'm confused...
Exactly so.
Also consider that if one is attempting to portray the ability to miss as 'tactical' play, one is saying that the more skilled a shooter is (lower miss chance) the less tactical or strategic. Any sniper would contest that.
In ZA, when you know there is a sniper up there in the sky somewhere, you play differently than when there isnt. The fact that he has zero chance to miss with a delivered attack doesn't change the fact that you adapt your tactics to the situation.
By avoiding longer engagements, restricting yourself to very short/intense attack runs, you reduce the chance that the sniper will select you and deliver his spike before you can escape into stealth, get under cover, etc. This is a tactic. It is a strategy. It exists despite the lack of a miss chance.
Is chess not a tactical game? Does it not require strategy? I'm confused...
Without going into a tutorial on Levels of Strategy, I'm just going to say Chess strategy/tactics are rarely utilized in the level of gameplay we are provided with this game.
That being said, I think this discussion is getting convoluted on talk of strategy for a power that in its current inception will fundamentally not work with the rest of the game.
So it might be better to save the arguments of strategic merit till after this inherent design flaw of a power is addressed in some way beyond just shipping as designed.
To answer your question in how you "miss" in chess, it's the whole part of the check. You move into a position where you are threatening a piece. Excluding the King, you either may or may not be alerted to the threat. Though if you move out of range within your turn or reinforce your piece with another by noticing the threat, then your opponent essentially "missed" their opportunity to capture.
Also consider that if one is attempting to portray the ability to miss as 'tactical' play, one is saying that the more skilled a shooter is (lower miss chance) the less tactical or strategic. Any sniper would contest that.
In ZA, when you know there is a sniper up there in the sky somewhere, you play differently than when there isnt. The fact that he has zero chance to miss with a delivered attack doesn't change the fact that you adapt your tactics to the situation.
By avoiding longer engagements, restricting yourself to very short/intense attack runs, you reduce the chance that the sniper will select you and deliver his spike before you can escape into stealth, get under cover, etc. This is a tactic. It is a strategy. It exists despite the lack of a miss chance.
Back to the Levels of Strategy, that's within the operational art. It requires someone outside the area of engagement informing you in advance that a sniper is present in order for you to change your strategy. Otherwise, one only has their dead friend which is already after the fact telling him that there is a sniper in the area, and while that does fall into a change of tactics. It doesn't change the overall strategy applied to the encounter.
Chess is a game with perfect information. There are no snipers in chess. There is in Stratego though that's also more of an operational art game.
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The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"
[...] You say that but i wont be convinced until you show the proof. I assume that you tested the same builds side by side with respective passives? If you did, why take all that time to test and not share the results (NUMBERS) with us (and the devs). [...]
Nightwarrior is handsdown the best passive in the game for an offensive DPS character whether melee or ranged in its current iteration on PTS.
A loss of 20-30% Additive Damage (I will spare you the discussion about why I highlight additve because you as a dev should understand why.) bonus is a cheap price to pay for all the bonuses that Nightwarrior confers.
Elemental? Poison? Physical? Ego? Nightwarrior is the best option if your set has chargeable attacks.
Lets use Ego Form as an example?
With my stats Ego Form provides a 103% Paranormal damage bonus, 51% physical damage bonus, and 18% cost discount to mentalist attacks, and 20% resistance to all, 110% ego resistance.
NightWarrior provides a 82% Addive damage bonus, 32ish Charge speed boost, 50ish Dodge/Avoidance rating, Stealth, a Free Shadow Strike Melee attack, and 100% melee Damage boost from stealth, 50% ranged damage boost from stealth. EDIT: Oh it also has a 15% penetration. There is no question: Nightwarrior > any other DPS passive. (unless you are power armor!)
Unless your build uses Maintains, (and honestly any powerbuilder will be switching to charged builds if this goes live as is) Nightwarrior is the way to go. [...]
But for the sake of the argument I'll take it to the next step and provide tooltip + combat log numbers.
Slight rebuild of my healer Kali using DEX w/ CON/PRE. Her offense pieces still have +healing instead of damage stats. All testing done in Melee damage role.
Primary SS DEX: 384 (39% all damage str, -20% threat)
Secondary SS CON: 84 (+9.5% all damage str, -4.7% threat)
Secondary SS PRE: 324 (22% all damage str, -11% threat)
Offense: 313.6 (37% all damage str)
Crit Chance: 42.8%
Critical Severity: 114%
Total additive all damage str from gear/stats: 107.5%
Focus gives 15% melee damage per stack for a total of 120% melee damage str @ 8 stacks
Rank 3 Night Warrior gives 82% all damage str
Rank 3 Way of the Warrior gives 119% melee physical damage str
Total additive damage bonuses with Night Warrior:
No Focus stacks: 189.5%
8 Focus stacks: 309.5%
Total additive damage bonuses with Way of the Warrior:
No Focus stacks: 226.5%
8 Focus stacks: 346.5%
Note: There are diminishing returns on additive damage bonuses as well when using a freeform, so the above numbers are not going to translate directly to the damage numbers given below.
Dodge/Avoidance (using D/A primary defense):
No Passive - 43.5% dodge / 60% avoidance
Night Warrior - 48.7% dodge / 66% avoidance
Way of the Warrior - 52.8% dodge / 70.4% avoidance
Specs:
DEX: 3/3 Combat Training (I gain 47 crit strike from my 313.6 total offense)
3/3 Gear Utilization (18% offense and defense boost from items)
3/3 Deadly Aim (+22% critical severity)
1/3 Quick Reflexes (+19 dodge rating)
Guardian: 3/3 Fortified Gear (30% def boost from items)
2/2 Ruthless (10% crit severity)
2/2 Tenacious (10 offense when hit, stacks 5 times; not used for this testing)
3/3 The Best Defense (100% defense as offense)
Vindicator: 2/2 Aggressive Stance (20% offense as defense)
3/3 Merciless (15% crit severity)
2/2 Modified Gear (20% offense more offense from items)
2/3 Focused Strikes (4% crit chance for single target)
1/3 Mass Destruction (2% crit chance for AoE)
DEX Mastery: +20 DEX, +10 avoidance and crit severity rating
So! Now that all that's out of the way...
Dragon's Claws Rank 3 w/ Night Warrior Rank 3 (tooltip):
No focus stacks: 1497-3193
8 focus stacks: 1860-3967
Dragon's Claws Rank 3 w/ Way of the Warrior Rank 3 (tooltip):
No focus stacks: 1626-3466
8 focus stacks: 1946-4148
This appears to show Way of the Warrior being the superior passive but wait! There's more! Every villain+ mob has damage resistance. Villains have 10% damage resistance. I'm not sure about the exact numbers for higher rank enemies. Night Warrior subtracts up to 15% damage resist (note it's not negative resist).
Dragon's Claws Rank 3 w/ Night Warrior Rank 3 (combatlog):
[Combat (Self)] Your Dragon's Claws deals 11399 Slashing Damage to Test Dummy.
Dragon's Claws Rank 3 w/ Way of the Warrior Rank 3 (combatlog):
[Combat (Self)] Your Dragon's Claws deals 10857 (11943) Slashing Damage to Test Dummy.
It's worth noting I only took the highest out of 10 crits for each so my sample size isn't huge. Additionally, the more resist an enemy has the less effective the 15% resist penetration becomes due to the diminishing returns curve on stacking damage resist.
So, we're still not quite positive Night Warrior is better... thankfully there's even more! Night Warrior also gives (with my stats) 32% faster charge speed. As long as you're charging attacks Night Warrior provides a multiplicative damage buff!
Dragon's Claws Rank 3 w/ Night Warrior Rank 3 (tooltip):
0.63 charge + 0.67 activation = 1.3 sec total
Using the 3967 full charge damage from above = 3051.5 dps
Dragon's Claws Rank 3 w/ Way of the Warrior Rank 3 (tooltip)
0.83 charge + 0.67 activation = 1.5 sec total
Using the 4148 full charge damage from above = 2765.3 dps
Using the 1946 tap spam damage from above = 2904.5 dps
Not only does Night Warrior grant higher dps via defense penetration in most cases, but it also grants higher dps always when fully charging attacks even when comparing full charge DC w/ Night Warrior to tap spam DC w/ WotW... and that's not even including the defense penetration.
Now, there are some benefits to WotW that Night Warrior does less effectively or not at all. WotW grants increased bleed damage and energy gain (+40 with my stats) when dodging. That needs to be weighed against Night Warrior's addition of Sneak and Shadowstrike powers.
Conclusion: From a pure dps perspective assuming energy is not an issue, Night Warrior is better hands-down if you use charge attacks. Night Warrior will be better in most cases (PvE, and possibly PvP vs squishies) dps-wise even if not using charge attacks. And to top it all off, Night Warrior works with every damage type equally... so if it beats a melee offensive passive at its own game, where does that leave the others?
Could I add to your post that it's a "one-stop shop" power as well? Seems a bit unfair in comparison that in order for Way of the Warrior to be used, one would have to spend at least another power point to effectively attack using it.
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The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"
I dont see the numbers you posted as over powered but maybe im missing something.
This is exactingly what i would expect from an assassin strike power.
People are posting like 50k shadow strikes and you complain 13k dmg on a 90sec cooldown? Need i remind you than plenty of builds can do 13k+ damage on live rite now.
Even if Shadow strike is over powered, this post does nothing to prove it, a point i will revisit in a moment.....
You say that but i wont be convinced until you show the proof. I assume that you tested the same builds side by side with respective passives? If you did, why take all that time to test and not share the results (NUMBERS) with us (and the devs).
The point I'm trying to make is that if you want to establish the if a power is balanced, you have to compare relevant powers/builds with numbers. Saying its "too good" or "better than every thing" is like when advertiser say "50% more cleaning power". 50% more than what??? Constructive criticism of NW = comparing relevant powers/builds with numbers.
Nerf herding NW= saying "its better than every thing" without comparing it to anything.
Nerf herding doesn't help balance the game.
Ill provide examples in my next post.
As a base the percentage jump alone is atronomical....little more then a 3600% boost from its unstealthed version to in stealth...thats a bit much. 50k Crit?? Kaiserin allready proved 120k+ And you dont think its not overpowered? The numbers i posted where just from the tooltip without any buffs at all. Thats just stats and being in stealth standing next to a trainer. There was no build or attacking which is why i put down "Shadow Strike(in stealth, standing idle):" If you missed that part before thats cool, it happens.
Im not arguing it should not be a hefty attack but thats a bit much.
Just my 2 cent. I do like that the devs are trying to create a new passive ability. However, I do have a problem that this ability now offers for free, 2 additional abilities. Not to mention that the ability Sneak is already in the game but is not even half as amazing as the sneak that comes with the passive.
How about you just fix the sneak ability and just allow players to choose it if they want it. Am I the only one that sees this as unbalanced?
Why not add Enraged and Agressor to Defiance and Invulnerability?
Why not add Manipulator and Compassion to Ego Form?
While this isn't game breaking, it just doesn't seem....right.
Just my 2 cent. I do like that the devs are trying to create a new passive ability. However, I do have a problem that this ability now offers for free, 2 additional abilities. Not to mention that the ability Sneak is already in the game but is not even half as amazing as the sneak that comes with the passive.
How about you just fix the sneak ability and just allow players to choose it if they want it. Am I the only one that sees this as unbalanced?
Why not add Enraged and Agressor to Defiance and Invulnerability?
Why not add Manipulator and Compassion to Ego Form?
While this isn't game breaking, it just doesn't seem....right.
You are the second. It's just apparently no one actually hears what I've been saying for the past two weeks. But hopefully you could be the voice I apparently am not. Means to an end and all.
So yeah, I second what he says..blkmask is right on the money with this one.
I want to add:
Why not add Resurgence to Regeneration?
Why not add Field Surge to Personal Force Field?
Why not add Unbreakable to Invulnerabilty?
Why not add Masterful Dodge to Lightning Reflexes?
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The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"
Falchoin is truly a treasure and a benefit to the community.
As he said sigmaseven, I did give numbers, and Falchoin has just given away the whole
Detailed analysis, that you derive from those base numbers.
The comparison he provided is starkly in nightwarrior's favor compared to a melee passive, it gets much worse for the ranged passives, many of which provide negligible defensive benefits.
This game has already become Crits Online due to the carelessness of this dev team, I really do not want this game to become Nightwarriror Crits online as well.
This passive Must be reduced across the board.
Cryptic please share your power design formulas with us so we can help you.
...And to top it all off, Night Warrior works with every damage type equally.
So if it beats a melee offensive passive at its own game, where does that leave the others?
Unless this is a pre-curser to modifying ALL the other Passives to the same level of "every damage type equally"...
...(and therefore the beginning of "Graphics over Mechanics", "Flaming Fists" anyone?)...
...It's a mistake IMhO to add this level of change to the game ATM, pure and simple
Unless this is a pre-curser to modifying ALL the other Passives to the same level of "every damage type equally"...
...(and therefore the beginning of "Graphics over Mechanics", "Flaming Fists" anyone?)...
...It's a mistake IMhO to add this level of change to the game ATM, pure and simple
And to think, it only took a complete forum re-design to let him contribute to our community once more :rolleyes:
The mistake would be pumping things up to trivialize content even more than it already is right now, to the point they would have to do another buff critter pass.
Nightwarrior is handsdown the best passive in the game for an offensive DPS character whether melee or ranged in its current iteration on PTS.
I would like to see a post similar to the one you just posted that shows that any energy projector or any offensive (ranged, melee or hybrid) build for that matter will do what it does, better with NW.
Now you make some great points falchoin and you have a rock solid posting history so i dont take disagreeing with you lightly but.
Not only does Night Warrior grant higher dps via defense penetration in most cases,
I'm skeptical about this. In the pre PWE forums i read post suggesting that penetration isn't that useful in pve because the majority of mobs don't have resistance. As far as i can tell, by the numbers you face more -villain mobs per fight in game than +villain. It has also been my experience that AOEs in PVE are way more effective than single target damage (largely because of this). The way i see it, Penetration gives NW the edge in single target damage which i think is congruent with an assassin passive.
Penetration has a much smaller impact in an AOE context when you consider -villain mobs (which again are the majority). I dont think its fair to say penetration = higher dps as a blanket statement.
but it also grants higher dps always when fully charging attacks even when comparing full charge DC w/ Night Warrior to tap spam DC w/ WotW... and that's not even including the defense penetration.
I like the way you showed how the charge time affects dps, i was wondering about that. I would be curious if this gives NW the edge in AOE DPS (especially considering that so many good aoes are maintains or in some cases toggles). I don't think its fair to compare passives from a PVE perspective based on single target damage.
Now, there are some benefits to WotW that Night Warrior does less effectively or not at all. WotW grants increased bleed damage and energy gain (+40 with my stats) when dodging. That needs to be weighed against Night Warrior's addition of Sneak and Shadowstrike powers.
Shadow strike is hitting way too hard and there is no cool down on entering sneak. After these have been addressed, then i think we would be in a better position to weigh NW v WOTW.
I also think we need to be specific when we say NW is over powered and say:
NW the base passive is over powered or NW on its own is fine but sneak is op or maybe shadow strike is the culprit. Im still not convinced NW (the base power) is the problem.
Conclusion: From a pure dps perspective assuming energy is not an issue, Night Warrior is better hands-down if you use charge attacks. Night Warrior will be better in most cases (PvE, and possibly PvP vs squishies) dps-wise even if not using charge attacks. And to top it all off, Night Warrior works with every damage type equally... so if it beats a melee offensive passive at its own game, where does that leave the others?
That's no small assumption as i will explain.
This was a grate post, but i think the conclusion should be that NW has superior single target damage on charged attacks, especially against higher ranking mobs.
Where does that leave others?
Lets consider one of my builds, I have a lv 28 laser blade/concussor beam hybrid that does most of its single target damage from laser blade.
SS int/dex/recovery
specializations include: revitalize, detect vulnerability (24 penetration),twist of fate (up to 9% crit from eb) and some cc specs for sonic device.
As you know laser blade with advantage is an energy hog, and i have found that even though i don't like the electric form graphics, the energy bonuses it provides allows me to spam laser blade. If i switch to NW i will immediately run into energy problems that will affect my dps. I will also see a reduction in my concussor beams which I rely on heavily (not to mention that particle accelerator can feed all my particle dps).
On top of that, i would loose a large chunk of my aoe dmg from NWs smaller dmg buff and penetration wont make that back. Is this build better off with night warrior? i think not but its tough to get a 1-1 comparison with the problems transferring toons to pts but ill look into this.
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Here's a suggestion. How about remove Shadow Strike and Sneak (treat them as separate powers for purchase costs) from the power and make balance adjustments to the Passive itself before trying to introduce them as freebie powers?
So we would spend at least 3 points in the same way that Way of the Warrior and any other Passive has to spend the same amount of points to attain the desired synergy for the playstyle.
Truth be told there seems to be a general confusion between everyone as to which power is applying these bonuses. Currently Sneak solely provides the stealth bonus damage buffs and Night Warrior itself just gives a general bonus to all damage.
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The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"
Here's a suggestion. How about remove Shadow Strike and Sneak (treat them as separate powers for purchase costs) from the power and make balance adjustments to the Passive itself before trying to introduce them as freebie powers?
So we would spend at least 3 points in the same way that Way of the Warrior and any other Passive has to spend the same amount of points to attain the desired synergy for the playstyle.
Truth be told there seems to be a general confusion between everyone as to which power is applying these bonuses. Currently Sneak solely provides the stealth bonus damage buffs and Night Warrior itself just gives a general bonus to all damage.
Y'know what? That actually sounds alot more fair and much better well rounded. Plus it just feels a bit odd that out of all the powers in the game this is the one and only passives that actually gives you two(count em!) TWO freebie powers for the price of one. If these powers clearly were made to work in a synergy then that's great, let the player decide if they really want it or not.
Also yea no question shadow strike's crits while in stealth/sneak is off the charts redonculious high as everybody in the thread has pointed out thus far (along with alot of mud slinging from certain posters but I ain't touching that with a ten foot flagpole) and it should be hushed down a peg. I just don't wanna join the ongoing 'nerf it' wars but there should be an alternative to this somewhere. I hope the devs are taking notes of at least some of this.
As he said sigmaseven, I did give numbers, and Falchoin has just given away the whole
Detailed analysis, that you derive from those base numbers.
You did in fact post numbers in a different but similar post previously so i admit that i may have unduly raged on you about posting numbers and i apologize about that. It can be hard to keep up with who says what over a period of days on a forum.
However the numbers that you posted did not prove that:
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Here's a suggestion. How about remove Shadow Strike and Sneak (treat them as separate powers for purchase costs) from the power and make balance adjustments to the Passive itself before trying to introduce them as freebie powers?
So we would spend at least 3 points in the same way that Way of the Warrior and any other Passive has to spend the same amount of points to attain the desired synergy for the playstyle.
Truth be told there seems to be a general confusion between everyone as to which power is applying these bonuses. Currently Sneak solely provides the stealth bonus damage buffs and Night Warrior itself just gives a general bonus to all damage.
The Night warrior in me doesn't like this suggestion but i have to admit that this is a reasonable suggestion.
At the very least maybe it should be sneak and shadow strike that bundle together. I'm not convinced of Shadow strikes merits as a stand alone power after its inevitable nerf.
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The Night warrior in me doesn't like this suggestion but i have to admit that this is a reasonable suggestion.
At the very least maybe it should be sneak and shadow strike that bundle together. I'm not convinced of Shadow strikes merits as a stand alone power after its inevitable nerf.
How to handle it, though...
It could be a toggle or an active offensive. Maybe even a two stage power like Telekinesis used to be. One click puts you in stealth that breaks on damage either way (which would reset it), second click shadow strikes. Although, even then, it would probably not work as I would hope this would have a cooldown so that someone doesn't just spam it through a boss fight.
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Something is odd with the defense penetration from Night Warrior. Boomerang Cone and the secondary hits from Boomerang Throw do not gain the def pen bonus. However, an AoE like Lightning Storm still penetrates resistance due to Night Warrior but the arcs do not.
Considering the energy projector offensive passives have lower +damage for the same super stat value than the melee offensive passives I didn't think it was necessary. That's why I used WotW in my example above. In the end it would be whether you preferred the secondary effects of the energy projector passive to the higher dps (possibly even higher survivability) and powers given from Night Warrior.
As far as def penetration meaning higher dps, I probably should have qualified my statement with something along the lines of "when it matters most", like when fighting villain+ mobs. Henchman, even tough henchman, die absurdly fast so the dps difference in my eyes is negligible.
There are generally exceptions to every rule. In the example you've provided Sigma, I doubt Night Warrior would be the superior choice mainly because you've already got defense penetration via INT spec. With a different primary SS that doesn't have defense penetration built in you'd likely see more of a benefit. Also, as you get higher in levels energy maintenance becomes less of an issue due to gear, higher stats and additional powers/energy unlock.
Something is odd with the defense penetration from Night Warrior. Boomerang Cone and the secondary hits from Boomerang Throw do not gain the def pen bonus. However, an AoE like Lightning Storm still penetrates resistance due to Night Warrior but the arcs do not.
Considering the energy projector offensive passives have lower +damage for the same super stat value than the melee offensive passives I didn't think it was necessary. That's why I used WotW in my example above. In the end it would be whether you preferred the secondary effects of the energy projector passive to the higher dps (possibly even higher survivability) and powers given from Night Warrior.
As far as def penetration meaning higher dps, I probably should have qualified my statement with something along the lines of "when it matters most", like when fighting villain+ mobs. Henchman, even tough henchman, die absurdly fast so the dps difference in my eyes is negligible.
There are generally exceptions to every rule. In the example you've provided Sigma, I doubt Night Warrior would be the superior choice mainly because you've already got defense penetration via INT spec. With a different primary SS that doesn't have defense penetration built in you'd likely see more of a benefit. Also, as you get higher in levels energy maintenance becomes less of an issue due to gear, higher stats and additional powers/energy unlock.
This is probably true with Sniper Rifle's advantage. I haven't tried it though. Plasma Beam and Eye Beam may also have the issue too. EDIT: sorry, Chest Beam might do it. Forgot the focus was on Charge attacks.
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Here's a suggestion. How about remove Shadow Strike and Sneak (treat them as separate powers for purchase costs) from the power and make balance adjustments to the Passive itself before trying to introduce them as freebie powers?
So we would spend at least 3 points in the same way that Way of the Warrior and any other Passive has to spend the same amount of points to attain the desired synergy for the playstyle.
Truth be told there seems to be a general confusion between everyone as to which power is applying these bonuses. Currently Sneak solely provides the stealth bonus damage buffs and Night Warrior itself just gives a general bonus to all damage.
It might be reasonable to remove Night Warrior and take the Sneak from Night Warrior and put it in place of our version of Sneak, simply buffing sneak fixes the issue, its not like I can't do what sneak does with Smoke Grenade.
How to handle it, though...
One click puts you in stealth that breaks on damage either way (which would reset it), second click shadow strikes. Although, even then, it would probably not work as I would hope this would have a cooldown so that someone doesn't just spam it through a boss fight.
Actually, that's along the lines of what i was thinking. like, i think it was the old evasive maneuvers that used to lunge and back flip on the same power.
i don't think one power can have 2 cool-downs but maybe you can use debuffs like bionic shielding uses to regulate when the power can be used.
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Ranged passives have inferior stalling to melee ones, and wotw is already beaten by night warrior.
The numbers and data are there yet you dismiss anything that refutes your position.
You are also discounting the unarguable superior Defensive benefit of Nightwarrior over ranged passives (excluding quarry, this is a wholly different power In design).
Look I get that you want to be a ninja, but I find the idea of everyone becoming ninja for DPS repugnant.
The passive is way over any other offensive passive, period. Gives too much good stuff along with the damage boost.
One of these features must go. Either the charge time reduction or the defense penetration. Would lead to disastrous consequences. Forget the shadow strike and stuff. With this passive you'll be able to do much better results with any kind of avenger or brawler. In both PvP and PvE planes. Just removing one of the two features I mentionned should make it fair enough so you can actually HESITATE when picking your offensive passive.
However, let it be ranged, don't destroy many concepts of cloaked sniper rifle users and other gunners just because pseudo ninjas and wannabe shadow assassins want the passive for them alone.
Actually, that's along the lines of what i was thinking. like, i think it was the old evasive maneuvers that used to lunge and back flip on the same power.
i don't think one power can have 2 cool-downs but maybe you can use debuffs like bionic shielding uses to regulate when the power can be used.
There is the possibility of Sneak/Stealth an general applied ability associated with various powers. That can be refreshed through re-applications within their duration length.
Then something like Shadow Strike consumes the Sneak to produce it's Alpha Strike. Similar to how Dragon Strikes consume Focus for the application of Rush.
It opens possibilities for passive applications under certain conditions.
Block Replacer: After X seconds without taking or causing damage, applies or refreshes Sneak. Sneak stays in effect for X second duration after releasing Block. Passive: While in combat; after X seconds without taking or causing damage it applies or refreshes Sneak. Movement: 50% chance to apply or refresh Sneak for X duration. Sneak (as power): Applies or refreshes as well as boosts the Stealth strength of existing Sneaking.
Specific Powers: Smoke Grenade: applies or refreshes Sneak while within the Smoke Cloud and not taking or dealing damage. Smoke Bomb: applies or refreshes Sneak. Shadow Form: bonus strength to any existing Stealth including Sneaking.
Possible "New" Powers: Ego Vanish: applies or refreshes Sneak.
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The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"
There is the possibility of Sneak/Stealth an general applied ability associated with various powers. That can be refreshed through re-applications within their duration length.
Then something like Shadow Strike consumes the Sneak to produce it's Alpha Strike. Similar to how Dragon Strikes consume Focus for the application of Rush.
It opens possibilities for passive applications under certain conditions.
Block Replacer: After X seconds without taking or causing damage, applies or refreshes Sneak. Sneak stays in effect for X second duration after releasing Block. Passive: While in combat; after X seconds without taking or causing damage it applies or refreshes Sneak. Movement: 50% chance to apply or refresh Sneak for X duration. Sneak (as power): Applies or refreshes as well as boosts the Stealth strength of existing Sneaking.
Specific Powers: Smoke Grenade: applies or refreshes Sneak while within the Smoke Cloud and not taking or dealing damage. Smoke Bomb: applies or refreshes Sneak. Shadow Form: bonus strength to any existing Stealth including Sneaking.
Possible "New" Powers: Ego Vanish: applies or refreshes Sneak.
So, should sneak be a form power, then. Would you get stacks every x seconds you are out of combat?
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So, should sneak be a form power, then. Would you get stacks every x seconds you are out of combat?
I see it as more an Active Offense that pairs well with its associated Passive. Thinking along the lines of how Active Defenses work with their associated Passives.
Though with something like a Block Replacer application; it would essentially work to provide a constant refresh while out of combat provided a person is holding block and not getting hit.
I don't necessarily reject it being a Form.
I'm actually okay with Forms (as powers) granting bonus powers like Shadow Strike. Provided that Shadow Strike can only be used while the Form is active and de-toggles the Form after using it. Similar how some Fighting Games handle moves performed while in a Stance.
And shoot, Smoke Bomb could be the Active Offense and Sneak could be a Form. That's an option too.
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The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"
Ranged passives have inferior statting to melee ones,
This i don't understand. When i look at tool tips on pts at lv 20 i see rank 1 NW giving 40% dmg and rank 1 electric form at 50% damage. Now perhapse you can explain for me and others that are listening how Cryptic math makes a 40% dmg buff on one passive out damage a 50% damage buff? In this context im talking about AOEs and potentially single target maintains v trash -villain mobs. Remember that many of the best AOEs in the MA tree are maintains. ex: shuriken storm, sword cyclone and 100 hands.
To be clear im not refuting this just asking for an explanation. Not every one knows Cryptic math.
in single target damage against high ranking mobs which is completely normal for an assassin passive.
I'm still waiting on some one to show numbers that NW is better for single target damage AND AOE. If its not better at BOTH then its not objectively better.
Further more Falchoin admits that electric form beats NW in my example (on a mainly melee build no less), and that's a real build that i have been using in pvp and pve since the PA pass, not even some hypothetical example made up for this discussion.
The numbers and data are there yet you dismiss anything that refutes your position.
I don't even think you understand what my position is. I would love to hear it in your words.
Just because I say your misinterpreting your numbers doesn't mean that i don't think NW needs to be toned down.
Ive already said shadow strike hits too hard, sneak needs a cool-down and even begrudgingly am willing to go along with NW and sneak/shadow strike being separated as a bundled package.
You are also discounting the unarguable superior Defensive benefit of Nightwarrior over ranged passives (excluding quarry, this is a wholly different power In design).
Not true. As stated above i used electric form (a ranged passive with less defense) as my example and showed that NW would not be superior for that build.
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So, should sneak be a form power, then. Would you get stacks every x seconds you are out of combat?
If sneak becomes a form then its mutually exclusive with other forms. I don't think i like that.
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Comments
That's critting...
Did I mention that ranged attacks only get the bonus 50% not the full damage.
By the way, while we're being oblivious, You can in fact get a BIGGER total bonus by picking a ranged passive, snipe at 100 ft, and DO THE SAME THING.
You mean *gasp*, we'll need to use teamwork?
You mean that.... in Black Ops, it's not fair when I snipe and kill someone in one shot, then have half the other team hunting me down?
That, you can target large areas with PBAoE and knock someone out of stealth.
That, you'll have to use tactics...
Oh noes....
Just mainly curious if those things even load and are completeable so I don't have to hear "after-market" complaints on the boards that no one tests anything with this game.
The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"
PBAoEs aren't "large areas", especially against something with 120ft range. And with perception gear borked, it's going to be like searching for a needle in a haystack. With a bunch of haystacks shooting at you.
None of the above really matters though, since the only enemies that intelligently hunt you when you attack are other players, and no one PvPs anymore.
The main problem is that he can use that tactic against enemies. When he mentioned "never having to fight anything in the game ever again", he wasn't talking about in PvP, I assure you.
And, seriously. Mentioning a Call of Duty game in any sort of balance or tactics discussion?
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Shadow Strike(not in stealth, standing idle):
This power deals 157 slashing damage.(Rank 1)
This power deals 161 slashing damage.(Rank 2)
This power deals 165 slashing damage.(Rank 3)
Shadow Strike(in stealth, standing idle):
This power deals 6,892 slashing damage.(Rank 1)
This power deals 7,948 slashing damage.(Rank 2)
This power deals 8.959 slashing damage.(Rank 3)
Running Prime SS DEX 317 / STR 183 / EGO 183 (all Heirloom gear) / Night Avenger Innate (str/dex/ego) the tooltip reads:
Shadow Strike(not in stealth, standing idle):
This power deals 348 slashing damage.(Rank 1)
This power deals 358 slashing damage.(Rank 2)
This power deals 369 slashing damage.(Rank 3)
Shadow Strike(in stealth, standing idle):
This power deals 12,139 slashing damage.(Rank 1)
This power deals 12,959 slashing damage.(Rank 2)
This power deals 13,727 slashing damage.(Rank 3)
What about this isnt overpowered? :rolleyes:
Lets not even talk about Primary SS END with Outburst from its spec tree causing it to cost 573 energy.
Yea, tactics :rolleyes: Let us know how that works in an auto target, auto hit, and never miss scenario. Please, don't try to sell cheese and overpowered as tactical.
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Preaching to the choir here.
The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"
Pretty much this, really.
Not to mention getting rediculous crits at max range on multiple people with FC...
The passive buffing range is fine, stop trying to kill more customization.
Losing a small amount off additive buff is a cheap price to pay for all the benefits night warrior provides.
It needs to be reduced across the board.
We got a "form" pass, now we need a "passive pass" before we start adding any new mechanics (upgrading "sneak") to the game
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They will all be rebuilt to use night warriror, and my DPS will go up in every case, and my survivability will go up on all my ranged toons.
I've tried queueing for them several times, with no effect. We'll see if it gets better when the queueing issues are settled and the alerts are locked down, hopefully they won't go live buggy.
I've heard one player comment that the character models for the new villains look pretty good, haven't heard much from anyone beyond that.
This is exactingly what i would expect from an assassin strike power.
People are posting like 50k shadow strikes and you complain 13k dmg on a 90sec cooldown? Need i remind you than plenty of builds can do 13k+ damage on live rite now.
Even if Shadow strike is over powered, this post does nothing to prove it, a point i will revisit in a moment..... You say that but i wont be convinced until you show the proof. I assume that you tested the same builds side by side with respective passives? If you did, why take all that time to test and not share the results (NUMBERS) with us (and the devs).
The point I'm trying to make is that if you want to establish the if a power is balanced, you have to compare relevant powers/builds with numbers. Saying its "too good" or "better than every thing" is like when advertiser say "50% more cleaning power". 50% more than what???
Constructive criticism of NW = comparing relevant powers/builds with numbers.
Nerf herding NW= saying "its better than every thing" without comparing it to anything.
Nerf herding doesn't help balance the game.
Ill provide examples in my next post.
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Yes, because if you can't have it your way, ignore all the posts showing you the proof and keep rambling on like everything is balanced and working as intended. :rolleyes: So far you haven't been constructive and in fact been outright hostile to anyone posting proof trying to discredit their proof. That's called being a hypocrite.
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Tactics have little or nothing to do with auto-target, auto hit, cannot miss.
Some of the most tactical and strategic games ever created do not have the option to miss an attack.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Yea... uh no they don't. First off, auto hit means there is no way to miss. Once the target is targeted, you can't miss even if you turned around. Secondly there is no strategy against this, especially with travel powers like flight and such, and considering the extreme range of the sniper in question, the suggestion of just randomly tossing AEs in the time it would take to fire a sniper shot is both ludicrous and shows lack of any thinking. And all things considered, unless people have extreme hit points, this is a one shot in PvP, even through block. So, exactly at what point does strategy come into play?
This isn't an RTS where the game is divided out into turns and you have ways to provide defense. There is no defense versus this type of tactic that is viable and actually workable. Unless the sniper in question is a complete idiot, it's unlikely to ever happen.
You want people to start PvPing, not force more people away from a bland environment. Things like this don't help the PvP cause they kill it because of the unskilled nature of it.
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Nothing there at all addresses the fact that auto hit and such have little to do with tactics or strategy, and that some of the most tactical/strategic games ever created have no chance, random or otherwise, to miss with a delivered attack.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Yea it did, you just chose to ignore that fact. Sorry, you did.
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How do you miss in chess?
Is chess not a tactical game? Does it not require strategy? I'm confused...
I never said NW was balanced. Don't put words in my mouth. Hostil.. like this? or this? Feel free to quote me being hostile to some one in this thread..... if you can. Also if any one feels that i have been hostile to them feel free to speak up.
At any rate, the posts that i criticized, (note: criticizing isn't hostility) made claims without posting numbers or power/build comparisons so there is no proof to ignore. Just like you have shone no proof of my alleged hostility or even managed to grasp the fact that i don't think NW is balanced.
Also, i haven't been posting numbers because i don't have any lv 40s (and thus don't have any non debugger gear at high levels), so i wont be able to push these powers like other players can. I thought i had mentioned this on the forums but i have also been chating with ppl directly on PTS so i must have got confused. Fear not though, my next post will have powers and numbers comparisons.
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You must have trouble understanding people, because your statements are rather incompetant. If you read what he was saying, he was saying that the numbers provided were not showing if the power was overpowered or not, a power that requires sneak on and to be in 10 foot range, a 13k hit from a melee power is outdoable infact, Dragon's Claw is a 16k hit on crit, or better yet, Defile, 16k crit, or lets go back to my /favorite/ power, Unleashed Rage, capable of 30k crits per target (max 10), but god forbid we fix a might power, even one that dominates so many ingame aspects, he was also telling the player that his statements were not backed with actual numbers, so they weren't helpful at all, he wanted to SEE what makes Night Warrior so much better as a passive, and now, you are most likely going to acuse me once again of trying to prove to you the power is balanced or not, because you lack the competance of understanding, when actually I'm trying to help you actually understand what was being said.
Exactly so.
Also consider that if one is attempting to portray the ability to miss as 'tactical' play, one is saying that the more skilled a shooter is (lower miss chance) the less tactical or strategic. Any sniper would contest that.
In ZA, when you know there is a sniper up there in the sky somewhere, you play differently than when there isnt. The fact that he has zero chance to miss with a delivered attack doesn't change the fact that you adapt your tactics to the situation.
By avoiding longer engagements, restricting yourself to very short/intense attack runs, you reduce the chance that the sniper will select you and deliver his spike before you can escape into stealth, get under cover, etc. This is a tactic. It is a strategy. It exists despite the lack of a miss chance.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Without going into a tutorial on Levels of Strategy, I'm just going to say Chess strategy/tactics are rarely utilized in the level of gameplay we are provided with this game.
That being said, I think this discussion is getting convoluted on talk of strategy for a power that in its current inception will fundamentally not work with the rest of the game.
So it might be better to save the arguments of strategic merit till after this inherent design flaw of a power is addressed in some way beyond just shipping as designed.
To answer your question in how you "miss" in chess, it's the whole part of the check. You move into a position where you are threatening a piece. Excluding the King, you either may or may not be alerted to the threat. Though if you move out of range within your turn or reinforce your piece with another by noticing the threat, then your opponent essentially "missed" their opportunity to capture.
Back to the Levels of Strategy, that's within the operational art. It requires someone outside the area of engagement informing you in advance that a sniper is present in order for you to change your strategy. Otherwise, one only has their dead friend which is already after the fact telling him that there is a sniper in the area, and while that does fall into a change of tactics. It doesn't change the overall strategy applied to the encounter.
Chess is a game with perfect information. There are no snipers in chess. There is in Stratego though that's also more of an operational art game.
The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"
Slight rebuild of my healer Kali using DEX w/ CON/PRE. Her offense pieces still have +healing instead of damage stats. All testing done in Melee damage role.
Primary SS DEX: 384 (39% all damage str, -20% threat)
Secondary SS CON: 84 (+9.5% all damage str, -4.7% threat)
Secondary SS PRE: 324 (22% all damage str, -11% threat)
Offense: 313.6 (37% all damage str)
Crit Chance: 42.8%
Critical Severity: 114%
Total additive all damage str from gear/stats: 107.5%
Focus gives 15% melee damage per stack for a total of 120% melee damage str @ 8 stacks
Rank 3 Night Warrior gives 82% all damage str
Rank 3 Way of the Warrior gives 119% melee physical damage str
Total additive damage bonuses with Night Warrior:
No Focus stacks: 189.5%
8 Focus stacks: 309.5%
Total additive damage bonuses with Way of the Warrior:
No Focus stacks: 226.5%
8 Focus stacks: 346.5%
Note: There are diminishing returns on additive damage bonuses as well when using a freeform, so the above numbers are not going to translate directly to the damage numbers given below.
Dodge/Avoidance (using D/A primary defense):
No Passive - 43.5% dodge / 60% avoidance
Night Warrior - 48.7% dodge / 66% avoidance
Way of the Warrior - 52.8% dodge / 70.4% avoidance
Specs:
DEX: 3/3 Combat Training (I gain 47 crit strike from my 313.6 total offense)
3/3 Gear Utilization (18% offense and defense boost from items)
3/3 Deadly Aim (+22% critical severity)
1/3 Quick Reflexes (+19 dodge rating)
Guardian: 3/3 Fortified Gear (30% def boost from items)
2/2 Ruthless (10% crit severity)
2/2 Tenacious (10 offense when hit, stacks 5 times; not used for this testing)
3/3 The Best Defense (100% defense as offense)
Vindicator: 2/2 Aggressive Stance (20% offense as defense)
3/3 Merciless (15% crit severity)
2/2 Modified Gear (20% offense more offense from items)
2/3 Focused Strikes (4% crit chance for single target)
1/3 Mass Destruction (2% crit chance for AoE)
DEX Mastery: +20 DEX, +10 avoidance and crit severity rating
So! Now that all that's out of the way...
Dragon's Claws Rank 3 w/ Night Warrior Rank 3 (tooltip):
No focus stacks: 1497-3193
8 focus stacks: 1860-3967
Dragon's Claws Rank 3 w/ Way of the Warrior Rank 3 (tooltip):
No focus stacks: 1626-3466
8 focus stacks: 1946-4148
This appears to show Way of the Warrior being the superior passive but wait! There's more! Every villain+ mob has damage resistance. Villains have 10% damage resistance. I'm not sure about the exact numbers for higher rank enemies. Night Warrior subtracts up to 15% damage resist (note it's not negative resist).
Dragon's Claws Rank 3 w/ Night Warrior Rank 3 (combatlog):
[Combat (Self)] Your Dragon's Claws deals 11399 Slashing Damage to Test Dummy.
Dragon's Claws Rank 3 w/ Way of the Warrior Rank 3 (combatlog):
[Combat (Self)] Your Dragon's Claws deals 10857 (11943) Slashing Damage to Test Dummy.
It's worth noting I only took the highest out of 10 crits for each so my sample size isn't huge. Additionally, the more resist an enemy has the less effective the 15% resist penetration becomes due to the diminishing returns curve on stacking damage resist.
So, we're still not quite positive Night Warrior is better... thankfully there's even more! Night Warrior also gives (with my stats) 32% faster charge speed. As long as you're charging attacks Night Warrior provides a multiplicative damage buff!
Dragon's Claws Rank 3 w/ Night Warrior Rank 3 (tooltip):
0.63 charge + 0.67 activation = 1.3 sec total
Using the 3967 full charge damage from above = 3051.5 dps
Dragon's Claws Rank 3 w/ Way of the Warrior Rank 3 (tooltip)
0.83 charge + 0.67 activation = 1.5 sec total
Using the 4148 full charge damage from above = 2765.3 dps
Using the 1946 tap spam damage from above = 2904.5 dps
Not only does Night Warrior grant higher dps via defense penetration in most cases, but it also grants higher dps always when fully charging attacks even when comparing full charge DC w/ Night Warrior to tap spam DC w/ WotW... and that's not even including the defense penetration.
Now, there are some benefits to WotW that Night Warrior does less effectively or not at all. WotW grants increased bleed damage and energy gain (+40 with my stats) when dodging. That needs to be weighed against Night Warrior's addition of Sneak and Shadowstrike powers.
Conclusion: From a pure dps perspective assuming energy is not an issue, Night Warrior is better hands-down if you use charge attacks. Night Warrior will be better in most cases (PvE, and possibly PvP vs squishies) dps-wise even if not using charge attacks. And to top it all off, Night Warrior works with every damage type equally... so if it beats a melee offensive passive at its own game, where does that leave the others?
Could I add to your post that it's a "one-stop shop" power as well? Seems a bit unfair in comparison that in order for Way of the Warrior to be used, one would have to spend at least another power point to effectively attack using it.
The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"
As a base the percentage jump alone is atronomical....little more then a 3600% boost from its unstealthed version to in stealth...thats a bit much. 50k Crit?? Kaiserin allready proved 120k+ And you dont think its not overpowered? The numbers i posted where just from the tooltip without any buffs at all. Thats just stats and being in stealth standing next to a trainer. There was no build or attacking which is why i put down "Shadow Strike(in stealth, standing idle):" If you missed that part before thats cool, it happens.
Im not arguing it should not be a hefty attack but thats a bit much.
Edit: thats base damage btw
How about you just fix the sneak ability and just allow players to choose it if they want it. Am I the only one that sees this as unbalanced?
Why not add Enraged and Agressor to Defiance and Invulnerability?
Why not add Manipulator and Compassion to Ego Form?
While this isn't game breaking, it just doesn't seem....right.
You are the second. It's just apparently no one actually hears what I've been saying for the past two weeks. But hopefully you could be the voice I apparently am not. Means to an end and all.
So yeah, I second what he says..blkmask is right on the money with this one.
I want to add:
Why not add Resurgence to Regeneration?
Why not add Field Surge to Personal Force Field?
Why not add Unbreakable to Invulnerabilty?
Why not add Masterful Dodge to Lightning Reflexes?
The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"
As he said sigmaseven, I did give numbers, and Falchoin has just given away the whole
Detailed analysis, that you derive from those base numbers.
The comparison he provided is starkly in nightwarrior's favor compared to a melee passive, it gets much worse for the ranged passives, many of which provide negligible defensive benefits.
This game has already become Crits Online due to the carelessness of this dev team, I really do not want this game to become Nightwarriror Crits online as well.
This passive Must be reduced across the board.
Cryptic please share your power design formulas with us so we can help you.
...(and therefore the beginning of "Graphics over Mechanics", "Flaming Fists" anyone?)...
...It's a mistake IMhO to add this level of change to the game ATM, pure and simple
And to think, it only took a complete forum re-design to let him contribute to our community once more :rolleyes:
| ME | A "Guide" Book" | | I, have a "DREAM! | ( Member since Feb 2008 ) ... ?
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The mistake would be pumping things up to trivialize content even more than it already is right now, to the point they would have to do another buff critter pass.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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Now you make some great points falchoin and you have a rock solid posting history so i dont take disagreeing with you lightly but.
I'm skeptical about this. In the pre PWE forums i read post suggesting that penetration isn't that useful in pve because the majority of mobs don't have resistance. As far as i can tell, by the numbers you face more -villain mobs per fight in game than +villain. It has also been my experience that AOEs in PVE are way more effective than single target damage (largely because of this). The way i see it, Penetration gives NW the edge in single target damage which i think is congruent with an assassin passive.
Penetration has a much smaller impact in an AOE context when you consider -villain mobs (which again are the majority). I dont think its fair to say penetration = higher dps as a blanket statement.
I like the way you showed how the charge time affects dps, i was wondering about that. I would be curious if this gives NW the edge in AOE DPS (especially considering that so many good aoes are maintains or in some cases toggles). I don't think its fair to compare passives from a PVE perspective based on single target damage.
Shadow strike is hitting way too hard and there is no cool down on entering sneak. After these have been addressed, then i think we would be in a better position to weigh NW v WOTW.
I also think we need to be specific when we say NW is over powered and say:
NW the base passive is over powered or NW on its own is fine but sneak is op or maybe shadow strike is the culprit. Im still not convinced NW (the base power) is the problem.
That's no small assumption as i will explain.
This was a grate post, but i think the conclusion should be that NW has superior single target damage on charged attacks, especially against higher ranking mobs.
Where does that leave others?
Lets consider one of my builds, I have a lv 28 laser blade/concussor beam hybrid that does most of its single target damage from laser blade.
SS int/dex/recovery
specializations include: revitalize, detect vulnerability (24 penetration),twist of fate (up to 9% crit from eb) and some cc specs for sonic device.
As you know laser blade with advantage is an energy hog, and i have found that even though i don't like the electric form graphics, the energy bonuses it provides allows me to spam laser blade. If i switch to NW i will immediately run into energy problems that will affect my dps. I will also see a reduction in my concussor beams which I rely on heavily (not to mention that particle accelerator can feed all my particle dps).
On top of that, i would loose a large chunk of my aoe dmg from NWs smaller dmg buff and penetration wont make that back. Is this build better off with night warrior? i think not but its tough to get a 1-1 comparison with the problems transferring toons to pts but ill look into this.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
So we would spend at least 3 points in the same way that Way of the Warrior and any other Passive has to spend the same amount of points to attain the desired synergy for the playstyle.
Truth be told there seems to be a general confusion between everyone as to which power is applying these bonuses. Currently Sneak solely provides the stealth bonus damage buffs and Night Warrior itself just gives a general bonus to all damage.
The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"
Y'know what? That actually sounds alot more fair and much better well rounded. Plus it just feels a bit odd that out of all the powers in the game this is the one and only passives that actually gives you two(count em!) TWO freebie powers for the price of one. If these powers clearly were made to work in a synergy then that's great, let the player decide if they really want it or not.
Also yea no question shadow strike's crits while in stealth/sneak is off the charts redonculious high as everybody in the thread has pointed out thus far (along with alot of mud slinging from certain posters but I ain't touching that with a ten foot flagpole) and it should be hushed down a peg. I just don't wanna join the ongoing 'nerf it' wars but there should be an alternative to this somewhere. I hope the devs are taking notes of at least some of this.
On Call FAQ found here:On Call FAQ
You did in fact post numbers in a different but similar post previously so i admit that i may have unduly raged on you about posting numbers and i apologize about that. It can be hard to keep up with who says what over a period of days on a forum.
However the numbers that you posted did not prove that:
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
At the very least maybe it should be sneak and shadow strike that bundle together. I'm not convinced of Shadow strikes merits as a stand alone power after its inevitable nerf.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
How to handle it, though...
It could be a toggle or an active offensive. Maybe even a two stage power like Telekinesis used to be. One click puts you in stealth that breaks on damage either way (which would reset it), second click shadow strikes. Although, even then, it would probably not work as I would hope this would have a cooldown so that someone doesn't just spam it through a boss fight.
Our society has traded responsibility for entitlement. It's time for a change.
Considering the energy projector offensive passives have lower +damage for the same super stat value than the melee offensive passives I didn't think it was necessary. That's why I used WotW in my example above. In the end it would be whether you preferred the secondary effects of the energy projector passive to the higher dps (possibly even higher survivability) and powers given from Night Warrior.
As far as def penetration meaning higher dps, I probably should have qualified my statement with something along the lines of "when it matters most", like when fighting villain+ mobs. Henchman, even tough henchman, die absurdly fast so the dps difference in my eyes is negligible.
There are generally exceptions to every rule. In the example you've provided Sigma, I doubt Night Warrior would be the superior choice mainly because you've already got defense penetration via INT spec. With a different primary SS that doesn't have defense penetration built in you'd likely see more of a benefit. Also, as you get higher in levels energy maintenance becomes less of an issue due to gear, higher stats and additional powers/energy unlock.
This is probably true with Sniper Rifle's advantage. I haven't tried it though. Plasma Beam and Eye Beam may also have the issue too. EDIT: sorry, Chest Beam might do it. Forgot the focus was on Charge attacks.
The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"
It might be reasonable to remove Night Warrior and take the Sneak from Night Warrior and put it in place of our version of Sneak, simply buffing sneak fixes the issue, its not like I can't do what sneak does with Smoke Grenade.
i don't think one power can have 2 cool-downs but maybe you can use debuffs like bionic shielding uses to regulate when the power can be used.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
As Falchoin said:
Ranged passives have inferior stalling to melee ones, and wotw is already beaten by night warrior.
The numbers and data are there yet you dismiss anything that refutes your position.
You are also discounting the unarguable superior Defensive benefit of Nightwarrior over ranged passives (excluding quarry, this is a wholly different power In design).
Look I get that you want to be a ninja, but I find the idea of everyone becoming ninja for DPS repugnant.
One of these features must go. Either the charge time reduction or the defense penetration. Would lead to disastrous consequences. Forget the shadow strike and stuff. With this passive you'll be able to do much better results with any kind of avenger or brawler. In both PvP and PvE planes. Just removing one of the two features I mentionned should make it fair enough so you can actually HESITATE when picking your offensive passive.
However, let it be ranged, don't destroy many concepts of cloaked sniper rifle users and other gunners just because pseudo ninjas and wannabe shadow assassins want the passive for them alone.
There is the possibility of Sneak/Stealth an general applied ability associated with various powers. That can be refreshed through re-applications within their duration length.
Then something like Shadow Strike consumes the Sneak to produce it's Alpha Strike. Similar to how Dragon Strikes consume Focus for the application of Rush.
It opens possibilities for passive applications under certain conditions.
Block Replacer: After X seconds without taking or causing damage, applies or refreshes Sneak. Sneak stays in effect for X second duration after releasing Block.
Passive: While in combat; after X seconds without taking or causing damage it applies or refreshes Sneak.
Movement: 50% chance to apply or refresh Sneak for X duration.
Sneak (as power): Applies or refreshes as well as boosts the Stealth strength of existing Sneaking.
Specific Powers:
Smoke Grenade: applies or refreshes Sneak while within the Smoke Cloud and not taking or dealing damage.
Smoke Bomb: applies or refreshes Sneak.
Shadow Form: bonus strength to any existing Stealth including Sneaking.
Possible "New" Powers:
Ego Vanish: applies or refreshes Sneak.
The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"
So, should sneak be a form power, then. Would you get stacks every x seconds you are out of combat?
Our society has traded responsibility for entitlement. It's time for a change.
I see it as more an Active Offense that pairs well with its associated Passive. Thinking along the lines of how Active Defenses work with their associated Passives.
Though with something like a Block Replacer application; it would essentially work to provide a constant refresh while out of combat provided a person is holding block and not getting hit.
I don't necessarily reject it being a Form.
I'm actually okay with Forms (as powers) granting bonus powers like Shadow Strike. Provided that Shadow Strike can only be used while the Form is active and de-toggles the Form after using it. Similar how some Fighting Games handle moves performed while in a Stance.
And shoot, Smoke Bomb could be the Active Offense and Sneak could be a Form. That's an option too.
The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"
This i don't understand. When i look at tool tips on pts at lv 20 i see rank 1 NW giving 40% dmg and rank 1 electric form at 50% damage. Now perhapse you can explain for me and others that are listening how Cryptic math makes a 40% dmg buff on one passive out damage a 50% damage buff? In this context im talking about AOEs and potentially single target maintains v trash -villain mobs. Remember that many of the best AOEs in the MA tree are maintains. ex: shuriken storm, sword cyclone and 100 hands.
To be clear im not refuting this just asking for an explanation. Not every one knows Cryptic math.
in single target damage against high ranking mobs which is completely normal for an assassin passive.
I'm still waiting on some one to show numbers that NW is better for single target damage AND AOE. If its not better at BOTH then its not objectively better.
Further more Falchoin admits that electric form beats NW in my example (on a mainly melee build no less), and that's a real build that i have been using in pvp and pve since the PA pass, not even some hypothetical example made up for this discussion. I don't even think you understand what my position is. I would love to hear it in your words.
Just because I say your misinterpreting your numbers doesn't mean that i don't think NW needs to be toned down.
Ive already said shadow strike hits too hard, sneak needs a cool-down and even begrudgingly am willing to go along with NW and sneak/shadow strike being separated as a bundled package. Not true. As stated above i used electric form (a ranged passive with less defense) as my example and showed that NW would not be superior for that build.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Good point, I think I'll stick to thinking of it as an Active Offense paired with a Passive.
The guy who formally posted as @Sky_Commander. Now posts as: "劫"