I have nothing against thin heroes with huge breasts, but some variety would be nice... I tried making a child character and OMG she looked terrible... Thank you, "waist" slider... :mad:
Same as previous post, tried to make a child. Creepy looking child with some evil dark magic powers... Well, she sure looked creepy... way to creepy even for a dark mage... Don't know about body size for females, but they must add waist slider.
Well this question was asked in the Ask Cryptic, but it seemed that the only two questions I wanted answered, that were different than the questions asked by others, were completely ignored...
I'm wondering if they would have been answered if someone else asked, seeing as I'm not really in friendly terms with anyone here because of my heavy Critiques towards the poor choices made as of late...
Quite a dramatic difference. You can do anything from a immovable sumo-esque brawler to your classic whipcord-taut Golden Age hero just by shifting the mass and then adjusting the muscle bumpmapping to fit. Very impressive range of variety here, Cryptic.
Now for the girls' side. I repeat, nothing other than bodymass was altered for these images.
Hey wait a second... is that it? That's all the change women can get from a maxed-out bodymass? She just goes up a dress-size or two? Even tweaking the muscle bumpmaps doesn't have much effect if that's all the increase of size we can get to put it on. If thats all the increase there is, why have it at all?
No chance for a massive Amazonian war-goddess, or a bulky she-bear werebeast, or even just a chubby wizard who enjoys conjured pastries a bit too much. Heck, you can't even shift the height down to make an amply-endowed female dwarf, though her barrel-shaped male counterpart is easily done.
I know some might argue the reason is that there's not a whole lot of BBW-type characters in comics, but come on... there's not many big fat guy characters either, but those are able to be represented no problem.
I love this game. Having said that it does still have some sexism and transphobia problems built into the system which need to be fixed.
So i support this call to fix this problem.
I wouldn't exactly say "sexism and transphobia" - that makes it almost sound deliberately done. No, I'm sure it's just some oversights and missteps; every game has such things.
Females have another issue too. The chin. The top two on the right of the facial sliders, not there. Thus, females can't have ridiculously large chins. Now, I say ridiculous here, but I'm sure that the freedom to have longer chins would be used by someone's character concept, but unfortunately only gents can do so.
I would like the opportunity to make less-waist-curve-based women, who look more realistic and less... Liefield-ridiculous-pose-y.
Females have another issue too. The chin. The top two on the right of the facial sliders, not there. Thus, females can't have ridiculously large chins. Now, I say ridiculous here, but I'm sure that the freedom to have longer chins would be used by someone's character concept, but unfortunately only gents can do so.
I would like the opportunity to make less-waist-curve-based women, who look more realistic and less... Liefield-ridiculous-pose-y.
THIS!!!
Is so true!!!!
I want my square faced lady with small hips and a huge torso
I wouldn't exactly say "sexism and transphobia" - that makes it almost sound deliberately done. No, I'm sure it's just some oversights and missteps; every game has such things.
I would argue it's deliberate that females have to look like supermodels. It's not exactly sexist though, considering males can't look like The Blob, either.
The default setting for the breasts is MAX!!!!!! :rolleyes:
So there's a wee bit of sexism here. I would like to make big girls as well. Also it's worth noting that female bad guys are few and far between. The vast majority of the mooks are male. Women seem to be less then 50% of the population of heroes and villains and they all look like super models. Seems like something that could be viewed as sexist.
Also there is the tendency for female armour to cover less then male armour.
Most of this is a flaw in the genre rather then a deliberate move by the developers I'd think.
The default setting for the breasts is MAX!!!!!! :rolleyes:
So there's a wee bit of sexism here. I would like to make big girls as well. Also it's worth noting that female bad guys are few and far between. The vast majority of the mooks are male. Women seem to be less then 50% of the population of heroes and villains and they all look like super models. Seems like something that could be viewed as sexist.
Also there is the tendency for female armour to cover less then male armour.
Most of this is a flaw in the genre rather then a deliberate move by the developers I'd think.
While I can't speak for the rest of it, I believe they said one the breast slider defaults to max to keep folks from making them even bigger and veering into Gag Boobs territory.
While I can't speak for the rest of it, I believe they said one the breast slider defaults to max to keep folks from making them even bigger and veering into Gag Boobs territory.
Well, there's always gonna be folks like that. It's the same way that their efforts to prevent "nude" characters from being created failed. Perverts are immensely creative and cunning. Remove skintone tights to keep nudists from being made, and they'll just make a bunch of naked green and blue She-Hulk and Mystique clones. Max boobs large by default, and they'll just max-out chest dimeensions to get them even bigger.
You can't prevent that stuff in advance from being created without unnecessarily restricting the tools of legitimate players. Only cut it off as it happens.
id support a gut slider. i cant stand extreamly skinny girls
I think you misunderstand. I'm not asking for a specific "belly" slider or whatnot, just for the sliders that Males have to be the same as Females, including how much the Body Mass slider affects the figure. As is, said slider might as well not even be there for women, as the change is basically negligible, compared to the drastic shift the men get.
Well, there's always gonna be folks like that. It's the same way that their efforts to prevent "nude" characters from being created failed. Perverts are immensely creative and cunning. Remove skintone tights to keep nudists from being made, and they'll just make a bunch of naked green and blue She-Hulk and Mystique clones. Max boobs large by default, and they'll just max-out chest dimeensions to get them even bigger.
You can't prevent that stuff in advance from being created without unnecessarily restricting the tools of legitimate players. Only cut it off as it happens.
On the other hand, if we do get "big girls" the monster boobs will look a bit more human.
On the other other hand, reality has too much realism as it is. A balance needs to found.
agreed, why waste great customization that you guys have created by making the Female body so limited. you did a fantastic job with the males. would be cool if you could make it at least 1/3 the size of the males.
I think the disparity might be related to (or at least perfectly illustrated by) the difference between "The Hulk" and "She Hulk". (A difference that's always kind of confused me, actually.)
I think the disparity might be related to (or at least perfectly illustrated by) the difference between "The Hulk" and "She Hulk". (A difference that's always kind of confused me, actually.)
Exactly.
Hulk = inhumanly huge and muscular green dude
She-Hulk = slightly-larger-than-normal woman in green bodypaint
ಠ_ಠ I want to +1 this but I can't find the button.
EDIT: Do we want an idea of how stuff like this can be done well and seriously? Look at Diablo 3's female Barbarian. She's a beefy chick. But she makes it look good, while at the same time, clearly looking like she'll snap your spine in half for smacking her rump. Or for any number of other slights of various natures.
There are a few Korean fremmos (NEW TERM! Free-MMO) that likewise do this with 'bestial' races that they don't make male-only options. Which confuses me a little, given how they treat other female character options in those same games... but that's neither here nor there. I'll hunt examples.
ಠ_ಠ I want to +1 this but I can't find the button.
EDIT: Do we want an idea of how stuff like this can be done well and seriously? Look at Diablo 3's female Barbarian. She's a beefy chick. But she makes it look good, while at the same time, clearly looking like she'll snap your spine in half for smacking her rump. Or for any number of other slights of various natures.
A perfect example. Wanting (and being unable) to make a solidly-beefy female character was what originally insipred this thread, since even with sliders maxed out, instead of a female-bodybuilder sort of girl, all I could make was a gymnast with a corset-narrow waist and a huge T&A factor. Which just was no good.
Go look at the pics in my original post, and those images. I daresay that it seems like the "body mass" slider for females is basically irrelevant, considering how very little it changes things. That is poor design. Either make it so the females' slider has the same range of effect as the males', or stop trying to kid us and just get rid of it.
Before I start to talk too much, I'd like to sign this too at the very least it would be nice to have a real waist slider like STO. Bulky amazons or average Janes would be nice and add to the overal atmosphere of the game.
Edited due to unintended rantyness of my post
I think a lot of the problem comes from the fact that in monster stories and super hero stories, we (generalizing cultures and stuff) start with a basic humanoid male form. Super heroes and monsters tend to be created for iconic purposes and as soon as we make them obviously female or even mention their gender, suddenly it puts more specific traits into them. A male super hero is viewed for what they represent but as soon as they're female, suddenly it's as if we need to focus on 'why' they're female. Adding this obvious gender effect becomes treated as a trait instead of just the basic mold. Thus I think for simplicity sake, cryptic put all the monstrous stuff on the male and figured the female form didn't need much since it's incredibly rare that comic book artists would purposely make a character female unless it's vital to the story, and even then, she might as well be sexy since that brings out even more male audiences
Anyway... I do hope cryptic expands their CO character creator but I don't see it happening any time soon since they'd have to re-edit all the costume pieces. Here's hoping though
This will never happen because it would require an extreme overhaul of the character creator and all models in the game. A complete graphic overhaul. It will NEVER happen.
Improbable yes, but I wouldn't say never. After all they did just revamp a huge part of the game. That said, that was for form and function while this is more cosmetic. Still, can always ask and wait and see, honestly just an actual waist slider would be more then enough for most people I think
I think this would be very interesting, and I'd definitely support it. I'd love to be able to make a plus-size heroine. Or, failing that, at least a girl who's a little more "Frazetta" and a little less "Liefeld."
Really, for starters, just having a "Waist" slider that actually works on the waist, and renaming the current one as a "Hips" slider to more accurately represent what it does, would be a giant leap in the right direction.
None of us actually work on the game, so it wouldn't be right to say "It's easy! All they have to do is (insert crude oversimplification of game programming here)."
At the same time, though, I can't help feeling that calling it an "extreme overhaul of the entire character creator and all models in the game" is a gross exaggeration, unless Cryptic's programmers say otherwise. Only the people who actually work on this know the real level of effort involved.
Improbable yes, but I wouldn't say never. After all they did just revamp a huge part of the game. That said, that was for form and function while this is more cosmetic. Still, can always ask and wait and see, honestly just an actual waist slider would be more then enough for most people I think
This is arguably more cosmetic, true, but considering how huge a part of the game the character-creator is compared to most other MMOs, something being "cosmetic" is certainly not saying it's insignificant.
I think this would be very interesting, and I'd definitely support it. I'd love to be able to make a plus-size heroine. Or, failing that, at least a girl who's a little more "Frazetta" and a little less "Liefeld."
This is arguably more cosmetic, true, but considering how huge a part of the game the character-creator is compared to most other MMOs, something being "cosmetic" is certainly not saying it's insignificant.
That's a very significant point. After all isn't that why new costume parts are such a big part of new releases for the game?
I completely agree, Sometimes a little bulk can make a character COMPLETELY different.
Think if wonder woman was bigger, I bet she'd not only have a completely different personality, but she'd definitely be more modest dressed...
However, I think the reasoning behind it is more clipping problems, Women have breasts, it makes it harder to make things like that without completely warping them to some degree, Have you put chest emblems on women? If you don't have the perfect boob settings as is, it's kinda warped and stupid lookking.
However, I think the reasoning behind it is more clipping problems, Women have breasts, it makes it harder to make things like that without completely warping them to some degree, Have you put chest emblems on women? If you don't have the perfect boob settings as is, it's kinda warped and stupid lookking.
Clipping problems will exist to some degree in any game with the range of customization that CO has. That's inevitable. It can be reduced, but never eliminated.
But the way to do that reduction isn't by making one of the customization settings effectively-useless.
I'm not asking for the vast size-shift that the male mass-slider can give... even I know that a female would look ridiculous with that kind of range - even though she's admirably muscular, She-Hulk just can't look good given the same raw bulkiness of her more-famous cousin, due to the natural differences betwen male and female weight-distribution.
However, when moving the female mass-slider to either end has virtually zero difference in how the character looks, while doing the same for the male produces everything from a skeletal twig to a walking boulder, then something is terribly imbalanced. I'm not asking for women to get a huge difference, but something noticeable would be welcome, unlike the near-nothing there is now.
I just went into the game. Changing nothing else but bodymass, I looked at the two genders, to compare what was different for each one at both extremes of the scale.
Men at the far-left of the scale were slim and reedy, with lanky builds like a teenager in the middle of a growth-spurt. When shifted to the far right, they erupted into a huge block of meat, barrel-chested and with limbs like pillars, such that the figure's height actually had to shift upwards a notch or two to maintain proportions.
Women, however, at either side of the mass scale, seemed largely unaltered, with minimal-if-any changes in their overall framework... except that the ones at the far left sported A-cups and flat butts, while those at the far right suddenly had hams in their trousers and cannonballs in their shirt-pockets. Apparently, the CO devs think female bodymass is concentrated in the T&A. (And no, the Breast slider was never touched.)
I know this is a comic-book setting, but come on - does that somehow require you to take anatomy lessons from Rob "Pouch Junkie" Liefeld?
That I'll agree with, But i still think it's going to be looked over for clipping issues, as much as that saddens me.
Well, I never said I wanted it as soon as possible. If time is needed to fiddle with things to cover clipping issues, I can wait.
Few things in this game are impossible, they just take time and effort. The recent overhaul of things like the crafting system and quests as part of the On Alert patch is ample proof that the game can take on large-scale changes and still be in fairly solid condition.
I support the idea a 100%. Just realised that this might not happen because it pretty much goes against the standards about comic styles.
afaik there was a huge debate on that previously in the thread.
It being against the standards is, to me, secondary to the benefits there are from a design standpoint for allowing it. As if they can open it up for PCs, they can then use it for more interesting NPCs down the line as well. Etc.
Not trying to argue, mind - just stating an opinion for discussionary purposes. I agree it's against the 'standard' comic mold, but I don't see that as a downside.
Comments
I have nothing against thin heroes with huge breasts, but some variety would be nice... I tried making a child character and OMG she looked terrible... Thank you, "waist" slider... :mad:
Same as previous post, tried to make a child. Creepy looking child with some evil dark magic powers... Well, she sure looked creepy... way to creepy even for a dark mage... Don't know about body size for females, but they must add waist slider.
I'm wondering if they would have been answered if someone else asked, seeing as I'm not really in friendly terms with anyone here because of my heavy Critiques towards the poor choices made as of late...
/signed for ever and ever ever. For ever ever? For ever ever?
Selfquoting bump.
Also the face, the jaw lenght and width!
So i support this call to fix this problem.
I wouldn't exactly say "sexism and transphobia" - that makes it almost sound deliberately done. No, I'm sure it's just some oversights and missteps; every game has such things.
I would like the opportunity to make less-waist-curve-based women, who look more realistic and less... Liefield-ridiculous-pose-y.
THIS!!!
Is so true!!!!
I want my square faced lady with small hips and a huge torso
I would argue it's deliberate that females have to look like supermodels. It's not exactly sexist though, considering males can't look like The Blob, either.
So there's a wee bit of sexism here. I would like to make big girls as well. Also it's worth noting that female bad guys are few and far between. The vast majority of the mooks are male. Women seem to be less then 50% of the population of heroes and villains and they all look like super models. Seems like something that could be viewed as sexist.
Also there is the tendency for female armour to cover less then male armour.
Most of this is a flaw in the genre rather then a deliberate move by the developers I'd think.
While I can't speak for the rest of it, I believe they said one the breast slider defaults to max to keep folks from making them even bigger and veering into Gag Boobs territory.
Yet it doesn't stop some from trying.
Well, there's always gonna be folks like that. It's the same way that their efforts to prevent "nude" characters from being created failed. Perverts are immensely creative and cunning. Remove skintone tights to keep nudists from being made, and they'll just make a bunch of naked green and blue She-Hulk and Mystique clones. Max boobs large by default, and they'll just max-out chest dimeensions to get them even bigger.
You can't prevent that stuff in advance from being created without unnecessarily restricting the tools of legitimate players. Only cut it off as it happens.
I think you misunderstand. I'm not asking for a specific "belly" slider or whatnot, just for the sliders that Males have to be the same as Females, including how much the Body Mass slider affects the figure. As is, said slider might as well not even be there for women, as the change is basically negligible, compared to the drastic shift the men get.
On the other hand, if we do get "big girls" the monster boobs will look a bit more human.
On the other other hand, reality has too much realism as it is. A balance needs to found.
Anywho, it's sort of sad when the most convincing grandma costume I've ever made involves using a male character. :C
*rethinks the Phenomenal Pensioner concept I had once*
Push everything to max (not just body mass) and use tact on the face
Now if only we could do something about that wasp-waist...
Indeed - now if only the devs would take notice.
Exactly.
Hulk = inhumanly huge and muscular green dude
She-Hulk = slightly-larger-than-normal woman in green bodypaint
...what.
ಠ_ಠ I want to +1 this but I can't find the button.
EDIT: Do we want an idea of how stuff like this can be done well and seriously? Look at Diablo 3's female Barbarian. She's a beefy chick. But she makes it look good, while at the same time, clearly looking like she'll snap your spine in half for smacking her rump. Or for any number of other slights of various natures.
There are a few Korean fremmos (NEW TERM! Free-MMO) that likewise do this with 'bestial' races that they don't make male-only options. Which confuses me a little, given how they treat other female character options in those same games... but that's neither here nor there. I'll hunt examples.
A perfect example. Wanting (and being unable) to make a solidly-beefy female character was what originally insipred this thread, since even with sliders maxed out, instead of a female-bodybuilder sort of girl, all I could make was a gymnast with a corset-narrow waist and a huge T&A factor. Which just was no good.
Go look at the pics in my original post, and those images. I daresay that it seems like the "body mass" slider for females is basically irrelevant, considering how very little it changes things. That is poor design. Either make it so the females' slider has the same range of effect as the males', or stop trying to kid us and just get rid of it.
Edited due to unintended rantyness of my post
I think a lot of the problem comes from the fact that in monster stories and super hero stories, we (generalizing cultures and stuff) start with a basic humanoid male form. Super heroes and monsters tend to be created for iconic purposes and as soon as we make them obviously female or even mention their gender, suddenly it puts more specific traits into them. A male super hero is viewed for what they represent but as soon as they're female, suddenly it's as if we need to focus on 'why' they're female. Adding this obvious gender effect becomes treated as a trait instead of just the basic mold. Thus I think for simplicity sake, cryptic put all the monstrous stuff on the male and figured the female form didn't need much since it's incredibly rare that comic book artists would purposely make a character female unless it's vital to the story, and even then, she might as well be sexy since that brings out even more male audiences
Anyway... I do hope cryptic expands their CO character creator but I don't see it happening any time soon since they'd have to re-edit all the costume pieces. Here's hoping though
Comic standards, this is a comic like game... No ugly women in comics... So no blobby girls in CO :c
/SAAAAADNESS
Really, for starters, just having a "Waist" slider that actually works on the waist, and renaming the current one as a "Hips" slider to more accurately represent what it does, would be a giant leap in the right direction.
None of us actually work on the game, so it wouldn't be right to say "It's easy! All they have to do is (insert crude oversimplification of game programming here)."
At the same time, though, I can't help feeling that calling it an "extreme overhaul of the entire character creator and all models in the game" is a gross exaggeration, unless Cryptic's programmers say otherwise. Only the people who actually work on this know the real level of effort involved.
This is arguably more cosmetic, true, but considering how huge a part of the game the character-creator is compared to most other MMOs, something being "cosmetic" is certainly not saying it's insignificant.
Good call on Frazetta!
That's a very significant point. After all isn't that why new costume parts are such a big part of new releases for the game?
Think if wonder woman was bigger, I bet she'd not only have a completely different personality, but she'd definitely be more modest dressed...
However, I think the reasoning behind it is more clipping problems, Women have breasts, it makes it harder to make things like that without completely warping them to some degree, Have you put chest emblems on women? If you don't have the perfect boob settings as is, it's kinda warped and stupid lookking.
Clipping problems will exist to some degree in any game with the range of customization that CO has. That's inevitable. It can be reduced, but never eliminated.
But the way to do that reduction isn't by making one of the customization settings effectively-useless.
I'm not asking for the vast size-shift that the male mass-slider can give... even I know that a female would look ridiculous with that kind of range - even though she's admirably muscular, She-Hulk just can't look good given the same raw bulkiness of her more-famous cousin, due to the natural differences betwen male and female weight-distribution.
However, when moving the female mass-slider to either end has virtually zero difference in how the character looks, while doing the same for the male produces everything from a skeletal twig to a walking boulder, then something is terribly imbalanced. I'm not asking for women to get a huge difference, but something noticeable would be welcome, unlike the near-nothing there is now.
I just went into the game. Changing nothing else but bodymass, I looked at the two genders, to compare what was different for each one at both extremes of the scale.
Men at the far-left of the scale were slim and reedy, with lanky builds like a teenager in the middle of a growth-spurt. When shifted to the far right, they erupted into a huge block of meat, barrel-chested and with limbs like pillars, such that the figure's height actually had to shift upwards a notch or two to maintain proportions.
Women, however, at either side of the mass scale, seemed largely unaltered, with minimal-if-any changes in their overall framework... except that the ones at the far left sported A-cups and flat butts, while those at the far right suddenly had hams in their trousers and cannonballs in their shirt-pockets. Apparently, the CO devs think female bodymass is concentrated in the T&A. (And no, the Breast slider was never touched.)
I know this is a comic-book setting, but come on - does that somehow require you to take anatomy lessons from Rob "Pouch Junkie" Liefeld?
Well, I never said I wanted it as soon as possible. If time is needed to fiddle with things to cover clipping issues, I can wait.
Few things in this game are impossible, they just take time and effort. The recent overhaul of things like the crafting system and quests as part of the On Alert patch is ample proof that the game can take on large-scale changes and still be in fairly solid condition.
I support the idea a 100%. Just realised that this might not happen because it pretty much goes against the standards about comic styles.
afaik there was a huge debate on that previously in the thread.
It being against the standards is, to me, secondary to the benefits there are from a design standpoint for allowing it. As if they can open it up for PCs, they can then use it for more interesting NPCs down the line as well. Etc.
Not trying to argue, mind - just stating an opinion for discussionary purposes. I agree it's against the 'standard' comic mold, but I don't see that as a downside.