As requests here is a CN run on my DPS DC with some people near my item level, although they have perfect bondings
Normally, I would run a buff setup in this dungeon, since obviously giving everyone +30% more damage (or more) is more than I can dish out, but that wasn't the point of the run. We were all competing for top DPS (except the tank) just for the sake of doing so. I would only run this rotation in a party that already had a DC.
This however, is a normal every-day run for me as far as DPS goes. I messed up a ton this run, but I guess that is also normal. I forgot to switch to single target for boss fights, but again also normal
I didn't run ACT for this run because I forgot, so sorry about that. You will have to just look at the all-seeing paingiver chart.
I think I cut off the only time I look at Winter's gear at the end, so sorry about that. I can probably upload that too if you care enough.
Needless to say, giving me ~20% increased dps would be broken in my own little world where runs like this exist.
I mean I don't mean to be rude, and I appreciate you posting a video, but I feel like you proved that DC's do need a dps increase vs what you intended? I really liked the way you play (very mobile!!!) but all I saw (I may have missed something), is that you were full DPS (AND have the benefit of terrifying insight over others which you wont have with this change), were the only person using wheel of elements (maybe I missed them using it?), at least one of the CW's had blue/green relic weapons, no mythic artifacts, a makos ring (!!!!), a purple DOD ring, non legendary belt, who knows what kind of enchantments/companion gear, rank 10 bondings (as you mentioned), like 11,000 crit, and still, you ended up 4th on the paingiver chart. I'll give it to you that you are also not BIS and were close to 2 and 3 but you were also less than half of the number 1 paingiver (a GF who the CW's should have been ahead of). And that's not even talking about anyones rotation/encounter choices (but that's getting picky/relatively unnecessary).
Again, I've had runs where I've been number 1 by a longshot but it is meaningless without context of the other characters build choices, gear, etc. I mean you provided more information via your video than I am with my grumbling but I don't think it showed what you thought it would.
"GF is balanced and can never reach Paingiver unless the team is bad, they also can't tank and DPS at the same time."-DPS GFs. They use your same lines. Righteous does not need more damage, bottom line. DC and GF are right now DO-IT-ALL classes.
Well I agree with that quote and same goes to DCs. Other DPS classes will still be able to outdps DCs by a large margin easily, especially how terrifying insight now buffs the entire team as well. And most people likely still would't invite a DC as a dedicated DPS.
Correct. The +30% damage for some powers will be a nice helping hand for the faithful/virtuous paths. For a righteous DC is still good, but not enough to compete with the top damage dealer classes (under the assumption that they know what they do). I can only say that my DC, while she's not fully specced for DPS, is a good benchmark tool to estimate the quality of the team. If I shine as a dps - sometimes it happens - it means that the team is undergeared/inexeperienced/bad built regardless the IL. If the team is well done I'm 3rd, more often 4th in the paingiver scoreboard. That being said, I see two major problems for the DC class to be a competitive dps at high level and they have nothing to do with the absolute damage output of the powers: - Given the same weapon type, the max weapon base damage of the DC can be lower than other classes (GWF for example). This is a structural disadvantage. For example the legendary GWF Headsman's Greataxe has (2,221-2,714) base damage. The legendary DC Lighttender's Holy Symbol has (1,542-,1885) base damage -> -44%. - Even if the weapon base damage is the same (CW or HR for example), the DC is often slower than other classes to cast the powers (Blessing of battle, Daunting light, break the spirit, lance of faith as examples). The cast time (animation) has a big impact on the dps = damage per second . For example, Daunting light has a nice damage output, but it has a long animation and a very small AoE. The animation is so long that the the miss/hit ratio can be quite high: you cast the power, but the enemy moves away or it's killed in the meanwhile and you miss it.
A third aspect has to do with the self-empowering mechanic. For example, you may want to cast the empowered version of a power to max the dps, but it takes a lot of time. When you're ready, the GWF has already destroyed 2 mob packs
Post edited by rapo973 on
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
@dreadnaught#5263 , can you kindly hotfix the issue "empowered daunting light not being empowered because the next encounter eats the empowered effect"??? Please improve the casting speed of daunting light as well as the aoe size of it, hope you see this post. TY.
I feel like you both are arguing very odd things. The extra 30% damage will help with the solo grind (the majority of the game nowadays) which is a good thing. It will marginally help our paingiver lives in dungeon runs. I am a "BIS" DC, and my average FBI run looks something like (400m DPS1, 375m DPS2, 150m ("DPS"3), 120m(Tank), 100m(me; DC). Depending on random stuff that occurs, maybe I do better, maybe I do worse. Sometimes I steal that 4th position from the tank, sometimes I dont. But adding essentially 30m to my damage and deducting ~8m from each of the other classes that I got instead basically changes nothing.
I could theoretically stop using eBTS and use eDL instead for some more damage, or stop using feated Blessing of Battle to grab living fire. Whatever. All that accomplishes is at best I will sacrifice a ton of buffing abilities, make our runs worse, and steal that 3rd paingiver slot (from the "DPS" that REALLY needs to work on his character). I think thats fine.
If ANY dps is worried these changes will make DC's dps machines they are nuts. The damage increase isn't "needed" in the sense that I can complete my dailies just fine (as a BIS DC), but it definitely helps the lower levels
If you want to be first pain giver you choose wrong character. We are support/heal no dps class !
@darthtzarr well in that group that'd put you on the same level as the CWs but still the GF would beat you all even after the changes lol. Shame you didn't have a good GWF present.
a couple of points:
If the GF hadn't died halfway through the end fight he would've come even higher and would've easily done more than 60% more dps than you, a GWF would've done even better.
One of the CW's, Winter I think, I didn't get a look at anyone else apart from a blip on you at the start, had less than 1.5k armor pen, I'm guessing he get's most of it from his companion but that's a very dodgy thing to do, is he an SS Thaum build? I ask because he has nearly 6k in recovery which is totally not needed if you have Spell Twisting but he still out DPS'd you. With his gear you really should've beaten him, but with these changes you of course will unless he sorts a few things out.
Did you show everyone else? If so I missed it, can you tell me at what point in the video it was?
You had a lot of DoTs coming in but most of your hits didn't get over 100k, mostly only additive hits went that high. Bearing in mind of course that this is including the benefits from 25% power from the OP plus 30% dps boost from ITF (til he dropped) and your Wheel of Elements of course.
I think you should take @thefabricant up on his offer, then we'd get a full and proper breakdown of what's going on and an impartial assessment on potential.
After seeing this I'd actually disagree with your assessment that a full spec DPS DC would be overpowered. I'd say it'd put you on an equal footing to some of the non-optimal DPS classes, which is where'd I'd expect to find it.
However, when parties ask for a DC they expect a support DC (and of course most DCs play support). If you're not doing this then you'll often find a pretty cold welcome. As I'm sure you are aware though, buffing the party is a lot more beneficial to the run than running as a DPS yourself - as you said yourself, you don't normally run it with full dps powers.
This is the same for my Pally, in dungeons I can't run with some of my solo powers which are more DPS oriented. I have to look after the group which means using defensive dailies instead of Divine Judgement etc. As such my place on the board goes down quite a bit but the group benefits.
Thanks for the video though and grats on the snail
Post edited by armadeonx on
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
i do admit in it's curent state AA is rather broken,... beying abused to cut corners, the nerf looks rather extreme tho, taking another def buff out. As long as we're getting at least partial fix to our many bugged feats/powers i'm happy. Opens up other posibilities \o/
and now to those complaining about DC's not performing as u want it... a pointer....
with the launch of Mod 5 i tink it was, DC got a full rework of it's powers and feats, the class got transformed, no longer focused self defence and defencive buffs to suport party and mainly dealin damage trough secondary effects from healin/buffing (for those who remember Hallowed Ground having a feat to burn enemy standing on it, forgemaster flame healing surounding allies-proking burnin guidance, astral shield doying somthin else...), instead favores DPS-debuffs-offencive buffing and has since had most of the remaining defencive powers/feats simply rendered obsolete with the launch of subsequent content and mods.
Leader role (HEALER) has slowly faided awey with nerfs fixing other undesired sideeffects (astral seal causing lag) and with time as base on hit heal values on healin powers aswell as temp points granted on a wep dmg modifier are those from mod 4, with a ever increasing cap on max hp and incomming dmg in both pve content and pvp.
the secondary role as controller has forever been broken, it's 2 controll powers have been bugged since forever, curently: - Chains of Blazing Light is bugged in that it will not trigger all procs (observed condaming gaze, some companion procs), not that it matters since the controll str/rezistance and immunity entire mechanic was nerfed few mods ago, at best it can root lesser minions for 1sec with no posibility of increasing duration (should at least aply a slow for few secs to be able to take advantage of trough active companion bonuses and the such... to make it usefull, not the case tho) - Sun Burst was bugged in many weys over the years, either ignoring controll imunity or not repelling atall, curently not bugged but rather broken in divine mode as it fails to aply dot/heal o.t. , afects total of 5 targets so: frendly healed (companions also count)+ enemy burned = 5 , engaging say 3 enemy targets with a party of 5 means: 3 enemy + 5 players + 5 companions =13 targets, a max of 5 will be afected, will however trigger all apropriate procs if u lucky enough to hit the desired target.
that beying said,....
short vid killin orcus, pug CN run with my DPS-AC-DC, did not record entire dungeon, took 39 mins to run trough it tho.
curently runnin rank 11 bondings, rank 10 rad on comp , rank 8 on myself, hitting 120k power in combat, scored crits as high as 1mil dmg with emp. daunting light.
preaty pls, the dmg buff fast ! , we're soo helpless !
I like my DC´s supporter role, I like to run my striker, same as I like to run my tank, wich i will respec into "more tank", away from Conqueror towards Tactitian, to improve groupperformance (more mitigaion+AP gain). A lot´s of dps-GF´s are gonna have issues, if they "mark" the boss with the upcoming changes, except they improve their spec towards a tanksetup. Actually those guys die a lot in mSVA, in case the DC is not in topform. Those player, running a GF-dps spec, simply shold not vote for the tankrole in SOMI chat.
Improvements for DO was needed and looks promising. If I take into account Terrifying insight+eBtS+PoD+DG+bear your sins+condemning gaze I get a 55% debuff+60% damageboost If I combine the ultimate buffer build with, let´s say a virtous AC focussing on mitigation/heal+powerbuff, i get a very strong group by that.
If those changes work as they should, the DC is in a far better position and builds will vary, in case AA stops working the way it does now. AA spamming is no solution and the way those runs look like is pretty painfull. I look forward to the changes, it will definitely make lot´s of player rethink their setups and their harakiri-playstyle and accept boss mechanics.
It's impossible for the cleric to do as much damage as the CW does. A full specced DPS tripples the damag of my DC easily - in runs like FBI a good HR does 5 times more damage !
Triple the damage of your DC who is running a buff/debuff rotation, or triples the damage of your DC using a full DPS rotation, while also using your dread enchantment?
The main reason why a DC can't beat a real specced and good played DPS is: piercing Damage - unresistable damage.
CW: For example: When you have ASSIALANT your next encounter power deals 15% of the targets max HP as Unresistable damage (max 800% of your weapon damage)
A DC does not have something like this and because of that can't deal as much damage
Um... yeah because you run around without max armor pen... why?
! And what most of you forget - Most powers of a DC have damage over time - if you are in a group where mobs ar dead very fast you have no time - no time means no damage for a DC. So even 30 % more damage will mean nothing. And because terrifying insight will no boost the group and not only the DC means even less chance to deal damage as DC because the numbers of the good DPS are higher mobs are dead faster !
Actually DoTs are only most of a DC's damage when running a buff/debuff rotation. Chains and Daunting Light dwarf Fire of the Gods and Brand of the Sun very very quickly.
Also, if DoTs themselves were so weak for fast fights, how can SW and Trapper HR deal good damage? It doesn't matter that something is a DoT, it matters how much it does per tick, and sadly none of the DC DoTs do a whole lot of damage by themselves.
Lastly, a DPS DC's dream fight lasts about 8 seconds. It must generally be longer than 5 seconds, but shorter than 25 seconds for a DPS DC to do optimal damage. It needs to last long enough to spam a couple chains, stacking debuffs and power stacks, and optimally drop a daunting light, followed by a couple quick Brand of the Sun tags before enemies die to regenerate Divinity before the next fight. If a fight goes longer than 25 seconds DPS DCs lose a massive buff in Avatar (+40% damage). They care very little whether a fight lasts very long, as long as it is long enough to hit stuff a couple times, and then re-tag enemies for passive divinity gain (the enemies do not have to survive after being tagged).
If I run the same Dungeon (etos for example) with the guild one time with my DC (2 DC's) and 1 time with my CW - my CW easily doubles the damage of my DC most times triple or almost triple it. The harder the dungeons the more difference between DPS. In lostmouth the difference is not this high but if mobs live a little longer the high DPS rund away with damage.
Are you saying your DC is full DPS spec like your CW, has all the DPS companions like your CW, has a dps artifact set (ex. orcus set) like your CW, and has dps weapons like your CW? Did you give your DC your dread for said dungeons? Were you running DPS rotation for said dungeons?
I like the 30 % damage increase of the DC because for me it means higher helaing (I heal with criticals - also with mount insignias) - i would like more if the DC could protect more so foresight is increased or something like that because 1 shots can't be healed but the 30 % more Damage will not make a DC a REAL DPS.
They don't have to be a "REAL DPS" to be overpowered. If they get even remotely close to GWFs in damage, DPS classes become replacable by DCs due to the fact that DCs also increase the entire party damage just by existing. I too like the 30% damage increase. I just don't like the massive nerf that comes after.
If they want to add the cleric to DPS they would give him more unresistable Damage - but they don't so no worrys - DPS - the new cleric will not be top it will only help you clear dungeons faster !
This isn't PVP, DCs can get enough armor pen. Bonding Runestones still exist. I have no doubt in my mind that DCs will make dungeon runs faster.
I can play Dread but the Difference is not too high My CW triples the Damage of my DC running full DPS rotation No I don't run arround with not enough arm pen. My DC has 59,5 % without Bondings my CW only 55 % without bondings. Daunting Light you are right does high damage empored - the Problem until it's empored most of the mobs are dead or you sometimes miss the shot.
you never get close to GWF Damage - its'impossible ! If you are close then the GWF does not know how to play.
what you have to think about - if we have 10 mobs with together 5 Mio HP and I kill them alone on my CW damage is 5 MIo. If I kill them also alone with my DC my Damage is also 5 Mio. BUT if we are together the CW is much faster dealing damage - he reaches 5 Mio damage in 1/4 of the time and a dead mob gives no damage - again it 's not possible to do enough damage with a DC to compete with a real DPS so the 30 % damage increase to some powers doesn 't change that.
As requests here is a CN run on my DPS DC with some people near my item level, although they have perfect bondings
Normally, I would run a buff setup in this dungeon, since obviously giving everyone +30% more damage (or more) is more than I can dish out, but that wasn't the point of the run. We were all competing for top DPS (except the tank) just for the sake of doing so. I would only run this rotation in a party that already had a DC.
This however, is a normal every-day run for me as far as DPS goes. I messed up a ton this run, but I guess that is also normal. I forgot to switch to single target for boss fights, but again also normal
I didn't run ACT for this run because I forgot, so sorry about that. You will have to just look at the all-seeing paingiver chart.
I think I cut off the only time I look at Winter's gear at the end, so sorry about that. I can probably upload that too if you care enough.
Needless to say, giving me ~20% increased dps would be broken in my own little world where runs like this exist.
Sorry to say: I'm not impressed. My DC does more damage - and I'm not sure what the DPS are doing... The best would be you show the builds and feats with screenshots - because I doubt that the DPS are full DPS - my CW would have way over 90 Mio Damage in this run BEFORE Orcus.
Maybe it's a PC thing because I'm on xbox. There are many good playing DPS players on XBOX and they do aunbelievable damage. To reach this The DC needs 500 % more damage or it needs more unresistable damage who can't be deflected......
But DC is not a Damage Dealer and it's ok and I say it again and I think the vid proofs it - 30 % increased Damage for SOME Powers of DC will NOT make them a DPS Machine
@darthtzarr well in that group that'd put you on the same level as the CWs but still the GF would beat you all even after the changes lol. Shame you didn't have a good GWF present.
I think you should take @thefabricant up on his offer, then we'd get a full and proper breakdown of what's going on and an impartial assessment on potential.
Thanks for the video though and grats on the snail
he should really do then he sees what real DPS means - and now think about 2 people like him are in a Party - the DPS of a DC is much worse and it is OK this way !
I run CN with my DC dealt 85 Mio Damage. And the same day I run a CN and my DC dealt 15 Mio Damage. Everyone knows what it means - again I run buff/debuff/dps mix DO DC.
If the group has REAL DPS inside there is no way a DC can compete !
1
treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
edited March 2017
I really hope we get some companion rework soon the base dps of a honney badger at level 35 is around 2326, with decent buffs insignias/ companions etc that will easly go to 10 times more but the investment is big and will still prove ineffective in multi target combat, using a wayward wizard inspite 733dps at lvl 35 will prove to be sometimes more effective not just for the big aoe but also for the slow, either way it's low damage, people that can affor to put these companions dealing 10 times more damage will most likelly kill everything more or less easly.
Oh wow I was in that video, didn't know that was a recorded run. Lol
I was actually in a PvP spec messing around with different powers and used KC on Orcus which pulled threat off the OP of course. Had I known this was a test run for something I would have had a more legit attempt at DPS and a more legit build for Orcus. I usually tank Orcus but as a rarity there was a tank in the party so I tried something different and failed at it. For me this was a casual screw around run.
I don't see how a DC will ever be top DPS with all gear, build, etc equal. 30% is not going to tip the balance.
i was board and been loling at this post since day 1 plz dev's go ahead with changes i 1000000% ok with it atm u could nerf me into the groundand at worse u make me change to faithfull. worse that happens is i play my pali healer cuz he just as good but is 2.8k ilvl with a stone lol. and with my main stuff he worse than this sadly next time i do the runs with vorp or drear trans and see how it works out maybe holy avenger since thats would be to 20% i am going to be needing after AA changes. i telling u devs just come life server start asking for DC and see what needs to be change dont just ask here were u get every other class thinking they know what a DC can do. cuz trust me they only know what they want to know and half DC here in all honesty dont know how to play DC to start with back when AA only protected us for 4 hits game was still like this and really bad part is i do better with my DO DC than this crappy ACDC but since cant get a end game party without AA atm i changed to try to help others a bit since they still apparently havent learned to doge much at all.
i was board and been loling at this post since day 1 plz dev's go ahead with changes i 1000000% ok with it atm u could nerf me into the groundand at worse u make me change to faithfull. worse that happens is i play my pali healer cuz he just as good but is 2.8k ilvl with a stone lol. and with my main stuff he worse than this sadly next time i do the runs with vorp or drear trans and see how it works out maybe holy avenger since thats would be to 20% i am going to be needing after AA changes. i telling u devs just come life server start asking for DC and see what needs to be change dont just ask here were u get every other class thinking they know what a DC can do. cuz trust me they only know what they want to know and half DC here in all honesty dont know how to play DC to start with back when AA only protected us for 4 hits game was still like this and really bad part is i do better with my DO DC than this crappy ACDC but since cant get a end game party without AA atm i changed to try to help others a bit since they still apparently havent learned to doge much at all.
LOL where is your (,.?") ? Quite hard to read ur post.
I wouldnt say half of the ppl here are noob but really there are alot of people not understanding and not even test/have a DC as their main. Kindly, to all posters in this thread, understand the whole DC class first before you comment, did you try before as a virtuous/faithful healer? Or going max dps righteous build? Then max buffer build? Or mix-and-match hybrid build?
I doubt most of the posters here tried every build and possibilities of DC before commenting. "30% more on SEVERAL skills are too OP" "DC should do the healing, a support dont need damage" "DPS GF rant=DPS DC rant" "IM BIS DC AND I DONT NEED MORE DAMAGE" ".....etc"
All i see here is many non-DC player cluelessly against the skill damage buff but only several good DCs mentioned about the bugs and ways to improve us DC. Can we stop the nerf train and discussed on how to fix the bugs and skill interactions? I have been quiet for a long time and the nerf train seriously makes me mad, be constructive please, or open another thread for you guys to flame there, not here. TY.
Can we stop the nerf train and discussed on how to fix the bugs and skill interactions? I have been quiet for a long time and the nerf train seriously makes me mad, be constructive please, or open another thread for you guys to flame there, not here. TY.
Specifically which bugs still need fixed? Weren't most of them declared "fixed" in this thread? EDIT Actually weren't most of them declared to be fixed in the current thread?
@dreadnaught#5263 For easy replication of this bug, slot Daunting Light and Forgemaster's Flame. Get 3 empowered stacks, and then cast Daunting Light immediately followed by Forgemaster's Flame. You will then see Forgemaster's Flame bring down the buffing light from the sky, and Daunting Light will become unempowered by the time it lands.
Please have a skill immediately use the empowered stacks when cast, not after the effect ends. It forces DCs to stand and do nothing for a second after casting some abilities.
And the inactive chains were a SERIOUS (like game breakingly bad) bug during the last Day of the Dungeon Master event, where 90% of the trial dummies couldn't be damaged using chains. I believe this is the same bug that causes the detection on the normal training dummies.
Please consider finding time to fix this bug before the upcoming event.
-- EDIT -- And a HUGE thank you for what you have done so far
Great post @jazzfong! Fixing those bugs has to be #1 priority.
1
ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Asking for nerfs instead of buffs is getting out of hand. You're going to end up seeing less DCs in the future if all we keep getting are campaign grinds. You really wonder why most people are righteous in the first place?
Constructive..ok. I guess the biggest step was done by toning down AA, more builds are viable automatically (not onyl for the DC class btw) If I go though all powers and feats, most of them have a situational benefit -- PVP/soloplay A lot are underwhelming.
Things I never used: -Soothe.. -Annoited Action, for soloplay usefull, but too short that buff as far as I remember -Sacred flame -HP buff too low, I did never thought about that burning aspekt, if this At will should have a meaning, give it an option to trigger a Fireburst on 3. hit by feats like "Living fire" or an empowered HP buff by "Cleansing fire" (virtous) -Annoited Holy symbol, did not work last time I tried, could be tied to a feat in the faithfull tree - maybe change "Prestigious Exaltation" into a temp HP-buff, by that should give some builds more options for mitigation -Warding flare, long CD and in times of onehits a 500% Weapondamageshield sounds not that much - or am I wrong? It could be improved in the virtous tree by feating "Unbreakable Devotion" -Gaes - no clue, how to give this power a meaning (beside it´s broken state from time to time)
Apart from this it is more important to rework some feats like -Initiate of faith...lol , My powerstat is 38k , 1% is 380 .... 380 critstat for 5/5 points, less than 1% critchance -Templar´s domain... a chance to get arp? If this would be an option for low level builds, it should give a fix ammount of like 20% RI - I got to spend 5/5 points and respec later by getting enough arp anyway
Unbreakable Devotion, I mean 50% of weapon damage? Needs a fix/buff. Why is a feat that provides a shield based on weapon damage anyway?
While it is still a pretty low number with a goofy mechanic, the feat dates from the level 60 cap, when 30k hitpoints was quite a lot, and the game didn't equate difficulty with one-shots.
I feel like you both are arguing very odd things. The extra 30% damage will help with the solo grind (the majority of the game nowadays) which is a good thing. It will marginally help our paingiver lives in dungeon runs. I am a "BIS" DC, and my average FBI run looks something like (400m DPS1, 375m DPS2, 150m ("DPS"3), 120m(Tank), 100m(me; DC). Depending on random stuff that occurs, maybe I do better, maybe I do worse. Sometimes I steal that 4th position from the tank, sometimes I dont. But adding essentially 30m to my damage and deducting ~8m from each of the other classes that I got instead basically changes nothing.
I could theoretically stop using eBTS and use eDL instead for some more damage, or stop using feated Blessing of Battle to grab living fire. Whatever. All that accomplishes is at best I will sacrifice a ton of buffing abilities, make our runs worse, and steal that 3rd paingiver slot (from the "DPS" that REALLY needs to work on his character). I think thats fine.
If ANY dps is worried these changes will make DC's dps machines they are nuts. The damage increase isn't "needed" in the sense that I can complete my dailies just fine (as a BIS DC), but it definitely helps the lower levels
If you want to be first pain giver you choose wrong character. We are support/heal no dps class !
I feel like you misinterpreted my post (or maybe I wrote it poorly?). My point was that we arent a DPS, that his video shows him trying to be DPS and failing, and thus, the 30% dmg boost will not alter our role in a group (which is fine).
Needless to say, giving me ~20% increased dps would be broken in my own little world where runs like this exist.
Sorry but how do you figure you went full DPS even on daily and DL yet was not even close to paingiver and the *30% boost still would not have brought you up by much. ?
The top paingiver was a 4k DPS spec GF (although admittedly he was goofing off), and wasn't really part of the benchmark. I was competing with Hodor and Winter Assassin.
Hodor and WinterAssassin were close enough to probably (not sure) pass with the proposed DPS boost. Not saying they played perfectly, or had perfect setups. Just saying that they are around the dps level of the average 3.2k-3.3k that I see from day to day.
Now the crazy thing is that I do not need to beat them in DPS. Even running the DPS rotation, I bring a larger utility (dps boost) to the whole team than they do. If I get even close to their DPS, the most optimal party (with the upcoming changes) becomes something like:
MoF DO DC AC DC GF Any HDPS
And the end result will have the HDPS at top paingiver, with the DO DC right behind him. This in my opinion is not even remotely close to balanced. In the given party the DO DC will win 2nd in DPS almost regardless of what rotation he uses.
I am not saying this IS the best comp, or that it WILL be the best comp. I am saying it looks to me like it will be the best comp, and that the DO DC will be providing more actual DPS than the MoF or GF, and combined with the buffs they bring, they will be bringing more total DPS than the HDPS could dream of.
I am finding this entire argument pointless, since we have no way of testing the new changes yet, and I am currently trying to schedule some runs with @thefabricant to test some of the live stuff out.
In my opinion, DCs don't need more flat DPS, they need ways to complete dailies faster, specifically the support build DCs. It was never in argument that Virt/Faith support build DCs (or even sometimes righteous when specced purely for support) are the most torturous things to play in solo content, without any contest at all.
However, there are many possible fixes to this that do not involve a global Cleric DPS increase. Some require more work than others. Such as Geas being changed to a spell that kills minor (non-boss, non-dungeon) enemies instantly after they are below half HP (maybe then it would at least have a use)? Maybe make the "when healing, damage enemies" boons better (like A LOT better). Maybe make some of the powers other than Chains and Daunting Light do more damage (Compare Searing Light and Daunting Light, Daunting Light is almost better even if it misses 50% of the time). I mention Searing Light due to the Armor Pen on it that would help support build (who should in theory have armor pen in solo, but a lot don't). Maybe not force a trade-off between recovery and armor pen on Cleric gear?
EDIT
If DCs are THAT far behind in DPS, why not make it a +60% increase? Might as well make those daily runs faster, since DCs can't beat real DPS classes in DPS no matter how much they increase DC damage.
@darthzarr The funny thing is you mention how you bring a larger utility (dps boost) to the whole team. I did not see any of that in your run as Daunting light and flamestrike give 0 buff and then so much use of lance of faith my gosh i don't even know the last time i slotted that power. And yet you went full DPS mode you failed to get even close to paingiver .If you claim to give a boost maybe slott FF. BTS,HG and even PoD rather than waste so much on daunting. Yet sorry but i 100% disagree with pretty much all of your statements . (they need ways to complete dailies faster) LMAO that is why the nerf hammer is coming down do hard once again on DC's , 1 Reason AA is so broken is that DC's can already cast it every 3 seconds what do you want them to pop a daily every 1 second instead ? and think back to a couple moda ago with the DC haste build and nerfed. We already have many ways to build AP you just must fail to understand builds.
I did not mean Daily powers, I meant Daily quests Obviously I didn't mean daily powers, or I would be pressing 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 as my entire rotation.
And I did say I would normally slot those powers in this group. This was to demonstrate the DPS I could do, not the full utility. We already know what the full utility of a DC can do, I didn't need to demonstrate that.
I still had the following utility slotted and working:
Repurpose Soul - Kinda bugged heals a tiny amount on like nothing, but after the fix this is a decent heal (not that they are needed) Bear your Sins -10% DR debuff Condemning Gaze -15% DR debuff Weapons of Light +10% of my power to anyone nearby Divine Glow lots a random stuff here that I don't have memorized
Now granted most of this does absolutely nothing with a MoF in the group, but the new Terrifying Insight will.
During single target boss fights I am also supposed to switch to FF, since it has higher DPS than DG, I forgot to do this, since I only recently started running it. It also often gets empower charges thrown onto it, so in my normal groups (AC DC, Me, GF, DPS, DPS), I can't slot BtS since the other cleric is already using it.
lol, 2xDC+GF+Hdps (or 1DC+GF+OP+Hdps) is already the best party composition. It is just that lot of players don't know how buff and class synergy worked that they are still running with 1DC+1tank+3 dps -_- (or sometimes because it is hard to find 3 support class)
DPS DCs stroking their e-peens here claiming they will DESTROY paingiver charts made my day. Oh boy "we dun need 30%+ moar demeg" -> well good for you, fortunately you're not the only kind of cleric in the server considering there is no DPS path for clerics, Righteous ismore of a debuff path rahther than DPS oriented but hey, who am I to burst your bubble.
Comments
Again, I've had runs where I've been number 1 by a longshot but it is meaningless without context of the other characters build choices, gear, etc. I mean you provided more information via your video than I am with my grumbling but I don't think it showed what you thought it would.
The +30% damage for some powers will be a nice helping hand for the faithful/virtuous paths. For a righteous DC is still good, but not enough to compete with the top damage dealer classes (under the assumption that they know what they do).
I can only say that my DC, while she's not fully specced for DPS, is a good benchmark tool to estimate the quality of the team. If I shine as a dps - sometimes it happens - it means that the team is undergeared/inexeperienced/bad built regardless the IL. If the team is well done I'm 3rd, more often 4th in the paingiver scoreboard.
That being said, I see two major problems for the DC class to be a competitive dps at high level and they have nothing to do with the absolute damage output of the powers:
- Given the same weapon type, the max weapon base damage of the DC can be lower than other classes (GWF for example). This is a structural disadvantage. For example the legendary GWF Headsman's Greataxe has (2,221-2,714) base damage. The legendary DC Lighttender's Holy Symbol has (1,542-,1885) base damage -> -44%.
- Even if the weapon base damage is the same (CW or HR for example), the DC is often slower than other classes to cast the powers (Blessing of battle, Daunting light, break the spirit, lance of faith as examples). The cast time (animation) has a big impact on the dps = damage per second . For example, Daunting light has a nice damage output, but it has a long animation and a very small AoE. The animation is so long that the the miss/hit ratio can be quite high: you cast the power, but the enemy moves away or it's killed in the meanwhile and you miss it.
A third aspect has to do with the self-empowering mechanic. For example, you may want to cast the empowered version of a power to max the dps, but it takes a lot of time. When you're ready, the GWF has already destroyed 2 mob packs
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
@dreadnaught#5263 , can you kindly hotfix the issue "empowered daunting light not being empowered because the next encounter eats the empowered effect"??? Please improve the casting speed of daunting light as well as the aoe size of it, hope you see this post. TY.
a couple of points:
If the GF hadn't died halfway through the end fight he would've come even higher and would've easily done more than 60% more dps than you, a GWF would've done even better.
One of the CW's, Winter I think, I didn't get a look at anyone else apart from a blip on you at the start, had less than 1.5k armor pen, I'm guessing he get's most of it from his companion but that's a very dodgy thing to do, is he an SS Thaum build? I ask because he has nearly 6k in recovery which is totally not needed if you have Spell Twisting but he still out DPS'd you. With his gear you really should've beaten him, but with these changes you of course will unless he sorts a few things out.
Did you show everyone else? If so I missed it, can you tell me at what point in the video it was?
You had a lot of DoTs coming in but most of your hits didn't get over 100k, mostly only additive hits went that high. Bearing in mind of course that this is including the benefits from 25% power from the OP plus 30% dps boost from ITF (til he dropped) and your Wheel of Elements of course.
I think you should take @thefabricant up on his offer, then we'd get a full and proper breakdown of what's going on and an impartial assessment on potential.
After seeing this I'd actually disagree with your assessment that a full spec DPS DC would be overpowered. I'd say it'd put you on an equal footing to some of the non-optimal DPS classes, which is where'd I'd expect to find it.
However, when parties ask for a DC they expect a support DC (and of course most DCs play support). If you're not doing this then you'll often find a pretty cold welcome. As I'm sure you are aware though, buffing the party is a lot more beneficial to the run than running as a DPS yourself - as you said yourself, you don't normally run it with full dps powers.
This is the same for my Pally, in dungeons I can't run with some of my solo powers which are more DPS oriented. I have to look after the group which means using defensive dailies instead of Divine Judgement etc. As such my place on the board goes down quite a bit but the group benefits.
Thanks for the video though and grats on the snail
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
and now to those complaining about DC's not performing as u want it... a pointer....
with the launch of Mod 5 i tink it was, DC got a full rework of it's powers and feats, the class got transformed, no longer focused self defence and defencive buffs to suport party and mainly dealin damage trough secondary effects from healin/buffing (for those who remember Hallowed Ground having a feat to burn enemy standing on it, forgemaster flame healing surounding allies-proking burnin guidance, astral shield doying somthin else...), instead favores DPS-debuffs-offencive buffing and has since had most of the remaining defencive powers/feats simply rendered obsolete with the launch of subsequent content and mods.
Leader role (HEALER) has slowly faided awey with nerfs fixing other undesired sideeffects (astral seal causing lag) and with time as base on hit heal values on healin powers aswell as temp points granted on a wep dmg modifier are those from mod 4, with a ever increasing cap on max hp and incomming dmg in both pve content and pvp.
the secondary role as controller has forever been broken, it's 2 controll powers have been bugged since forever, curently:
- Chains of Blazing Light is bugged in that it will not trigger all procs (observed condaming gaze, some companion procs),
not that it matters since the controll str/rezistance and immunity entire mechanic was nerfed few mods ago, at best it can root lesser minions for 1sec with no posibility of increasing duration (should at least aply a slow for few secs to be able to take advantage of trough active companion bonuses and the such... to make it usefull, not the case tho)
- Sun Burst was bugged in many weys over the years, either ignoring controll imunity or not repelling atall, curently not bugged but rather broken in divine mode as it fails to aply dot/heal o.t. , afects total of 5 targets so: frendly healed (companions also count)+ enemy burned = 5 , engaging say 3 enemy targets with a party of 5 means: 3 enemy + 5 players + 5 companions =13 targets, a max of 5 will be afected, will however trigger all apropriate procs if u lucky enough to hit the desired target.
that beying said,....
short vid killin orcus, pug CN run with my DPS-AC-DC, did not record entire dungeon, took 39 mins to run trough it tho.
plays.tv/video/58b7d8626d4b6c81ec/orcus-fight-dps-ac-dc-ps-we-nead-dmg-buff-were-soo-helpless-
check paingiver !
curently runnin rank 11 bondings, rank 10 rad on comp , rank 8 on myself, hitting 120k power in combat, scored crits as high as 1mil dmg with emp. daunting light.
preaty pls, the dmg buff fast ! , we're soo helpless !
A lot´s of dps-GF´s are gonna have issues, if they "mark" the boss with the upcoming changes, except they improve their spec towards a tanksetup. Actually those guys die a lot in mSVA, in case the DC is not in topform. Those player, running a GF-dps spec, simply shold not vote for the tankrole in SOMI chat.
Improvements for DO was needed and looks promising.
If I take into account Terrifying insight+eBtS+PoD+DG+bear your sins+condemning gaze I get a 55% debuff+60% damageboost
If I combine the ultimate buffer build with, let´s say a virtous AC focussing on mitigation/heal+powerbuff, i get a very strong group by that.
If those changes work as they should, the DC is in a far better position and builds will vary, in case AA stops working the way it does now.
AA spamming is no solution and the way those runs look like is pretty painfull. I look forward to the changes, it will definitely make lot´s of player rethink their setups and their harakiri-playstyle and accept boss mechanics.
My CW triples the Damage of my DC running full DPS rotation
No I don't run arround with not enough arm pen.
My DC has 59,5 % without Bondings my CW only 55 % without bondings.
Daunting Light you are right does high damage empored - the Problem until it's empored most of the mobs are dead or you sometimes miss the shot.
you never get close to GWF Damage - its'impossible ! If you are close then the GWF does not know how to play.
what you have to think about - if we have 10 mobs with together 5 Mio HP and I kill them alone on my CW damage is 5 MIo.
If I kill them also alone with my DC my Damage is also 5 Mio. BUT if we are together the CW is much faster dealing damage - he reaches 5 Mio damage in 1/4 of the time and a dead mob gives no damage - again it 's not possible to do enough damage with a DC to compete with a real DPS so the 30 % damage increase to some powers doesn 't change that.
The best would be you show the builds and feats with screenshots - because I doubt that the DPS are full DPS - my CW would have way over 90 Mio Damage in this run BEFORE Orcus.
Maybe it's a PC thing because I'm on xbox. There are many good playing DPS players on XBOX and they do aunbelievable damage. To reach this The DC needs 500 % more damage or it needs more unresistable damage who can't be deflected......
But DC is not a Damage Dealer and it's ok and I say it again and I think the vid proofs it - 30 % increased Damage for SOME Powers of DC will NOT make them a DPS Machine
I run CN with my DC dealt 85 Mio Damage. And the same day I run a CN and my DC dealt 15 Mio Damage.
Everyone knows what it means - again I run buff/debuff/dps mix DO DC.
If the group has REAL DPS inside there is no way a DC can compete !
I was actually in a PvP spec messing around with different powers and used KC on Orcus which pulled threat off the OP of course. Had I known this was a test run for something I would have had a more legit attempt at DPS and a more legit build for Orcus. I usually tank Orcus but as a rarity there was a tank in the party so I tried something different and failed at it. For me this was a casual screw around run.
I don't see how a DC will ever be top DPS with all gear, build, etc equal. 30% is not going to tip the balance.
i was board and been loling at this post since day 1 plz dev's go ahead with changes i 1000000% ok with it atm
u could nerf me into the groundand at worse u make me change to faithfull. worse that happens is i play my pali healer cuz he just as good but is 2.8k ilvl with a stone lol. and with my main stuff he worse than this sadly next time i do the runs with vorp or drear trans and see how it works out maybe holy avenger since thats would be to 20% i am going to be needing after AA changes. i telling u devs just come life server start asking for DC and see what needs to be change dont just ask here were u get every other class thinking they know what a DC can do. cuz trust me they only know what they want to know and half DC here in all honesty dont know how to play DC to start with back when AA only protected us for 4 hits game was still like this and really bad part is i do better with my DO DC than this crappy ACDC but since cant get a end game party without AA atm i changed to try to help others a bit since they still apparently havent learned to doge much at all.
I wouldnt say half of the ppl here are noob but really there are alot of people not understanding and not even test/have a DC as their main. Kindly, to all posters in this thread, understand the whole DC class first before you comment, did you try before as a virtuous/faithful healer? Or going max dps righteous build? Then max buffer build? Or mix-and-match hybrid build?
I doubt most of the posters here tried every build and possibilities of DC before commenting.
"30% more on SEVERAL skills are too OP"
"DC should do the healing, a support dont need damage"
"DPS GF rant=DPS DC rant"
"IM BIS DC AND I DONT NEED MORE DAMAGE"
".....etc"
All i see here is many non-DC player cluelessly against the skill damage buff but only several good DCs mentioned about the bugs and ways to improve us DC. Can we stop the nerf train and discussed on how to fix the bugs and skill interactions? I have been quiet for a long time and the nerf train seriously makes me mad, be constructive please, or open another thread for you guys to flame there, not here. TY.
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1227237/devoted-cleric-bug-list
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
@dreadnaught#5263
For easy replication of this bug, slot Daunting Light and Forgemaster's Flame. Get 3 empowered stacks, and then cast Daunting Light immediately followed by Forgemaster's Flame. You will then see Forgemaster's Flame bring down the buffing light from the sky, and Daunting Light will become unempowered by the time it lands.
Please have a skill immediately use the empowered stacks when cast, not after the effect ends. It forces DCs to stand and do nothing for a second after casting some abilities.
And the inactive chains were a SERIOUS (like game breakingly bad) bug during the last Day of the Dungeon Master event, where 90% of the trial dummies couldn't be damaged using chains. I believe this is the same bug that causes the detection on the normal training dummies.
Please consider finding time to fix this bug before the upcoming event.
-- EDIT --
And a HUGE thank you for what you have done so far
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
I guess the biggest step was done by toning down AA, more builds are viable automatically (not onyl for the DC class btw)
If I go though all powers and feats, most of them have a situational benefit -- PVP/soloplay
A lot are underwhelming.
Things I never used:
-Soothe..
-Annoited Action, for soloplay usefull, but too short that buff as far as I remember
-Sacred flame -HP buff too low, I did never thought about that burning aspekt, if this At will should have a meaning, give it an option to trigger a Fireburst on 3. hit by feats like "Living fire" or an empowered HP buff by "Cleansing fire" (virtous)
-Annoited Holy symbol, did not work last time I tried, could be tied to a feat in the faithfull tree - maybe change "Prestigious Exaltation" into a temp HP-buff, by that should give some builds more options for mitigation
-Warding flare, long CD and in times of onehits a 500% Weapondamageshield sounds not that much - or am I wrong?
It could be improved in the virtous tree by feating "Unbreakable Devotion"
-Gaes - no clue, how to give this power a meaning (beside it´s broken state from time to time)
Apart from this it is more important to rework some feats like
-Initiate of faith...lol , My powerstat is 38k , 1% is 380 .... 380 critstat for 5/5 points, less than 1% critchance
-Templar´s domain... a chance to get arp? If this would be an option for low level builds, it should give a fix ammount of like 20% RI - I got to spend 5/5 points and respec later by getting enough arp anyway
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Hodor and WinterAssassin were close enough to probably (not sure) pass with the proposed DPS boost. Not saying they played perfectly, or had perfect setups. Just saying that they are around the dps level of the average 3.2k-3.3k that I see from day to day.
Now the crazy thing is that I do not need to beat them in DPS. Even running the DPS rotation, I bring a larger utility (dps boost) to the whole team than they do. If I get even close to their DPS, the most optimal party (with the upcoming changes) becomes something like:
MoF
DO DC
AC DC
GF
Any HDPS
And the end result will have the HDPS at top paingiver, with the DO DC right behind him. This in my opinion is not even remotely close to balanced. In the given party the DO DC will win 2nd in DPS almost regardless of what rotation he uses.
I am not saying this IS the best comp, or that it WILL be the best comp. I am saying it looks to me like it will be the best comp, and that the DO DC will be providing more actual DPS than the MoF or GF, and combined with the buffs they bring, they will be bringing more total DPS than the HDPS could dream of.
I am finding this entire argument pointless, since we have no way of testing the new changes yet, and I am currently trying to schedule some runs with @thefabricant to test some of the live stuff out.
In my opinion, DCs don't need more flat DPS, they need ways to complete dailies faster, specifically the support build DCs. It was never in argument that Virt/Faith support build DCs (or even sometimes righteous when specced purely for support) are the most torturous things to play in solo content, without any contest at all.
However, there are many possible fixes to this that do not involve a global Cleric DPS increase. Some require more work than others. Such as Geas being changed to a spell that kills minor (non-boss, non-dungeon) enemies instantly after they are below half HP (maybe then it would at least have a use)? Maybe make the "when healing, damage enemies" boons better (like A LOT better). Maybe make some of the powers other than Chains and Daunting Light do more damage (Compare Searing Light and Daunting Light, Daunting Light is almost better even if it misses 50% of the time). I mention Searing Light due to the Armor Pen on it that would help support build (who should in theory have armor pen in solo, but a lot don't). Maybe not force a trade-off between recovery and armor pen on Cleric gear?
EDIT
If DCs are THAT far behind in DPS, why not make it a +60% increase? Might as well make those daily runs faster, since DCs can't beat real DPS classes in DPS no matter how much they increase DC damage.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
I did not mean Daily powers, I meant Daily quests Obviously I didn't mean daily powers, or I would be pressing 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 as my entire rotation.
And I did say I would normally slot those powers in this group. This was to demonstrate the DPS I could do, not the full utility. We already know what the full utility of a DC can do, I didn't need to demonstrate that.
I still had the following utility slotted and working:
Repurpose Soul - Kinda bugged heals a tiny amount on like nothing, but after the fix this is a decent heal (not that they are needed)
Bear your Sins -10% DR debuff
Condemning Gaze -15% DR debuff
Weapons of Light +10% of my power to anyone nearby
Divine Glow lots a random stuff here that I don't have memorized
Now granted most of this does absolutely nothing with a MoF in the group, but the new Terrifying Insight will.
During single target boss fights I am also supposed to switch to FF, since it has higher DPS than DG, I forgot to do this, since I only recently started running it. It also often gets empower charges thrown onto it, so in my normal groups (AC DC, Me, GF, DPS, DPS), I can't slot BtS since the other cleric is already using it.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
2xDC+GF+Hdps (or 1DC+GF+OP+Hdps) is already the best party composition. It is just that lot of players don't know how buff and class synergy worked that they are still running with 1DC+1tank+3 dps -_- (or sometimes because it is hard to find 3 support class)
Oh boy "we dun need 30%+ moar demeg" -> well good for you, fortunately you're not the only kind of cleric in the server considering there is no DPS path for clerics, Righteous ismore of a debuff path rahther than DPS oriented but hey, who am I to burst your bubble.