You just need 100% uncaped to reach the 400% effectivness, unless the uncaped are multiplicative, in that case you need even less, the equation i've guiding from has them as aditive and honestly they are very powerful already (maybe exept sw that needs them).
Just 100% uncapped ? Following that List, there are no uncapped buffs from classes that are shared effectively with the group. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N8Y_AmqnnhOdaCT2Sg9e-OcC0m6q5nUJLfujZVsI1Z0/edit#gid=0 Companions do spend those buffs, some artifacts, plaguefire and frost. My dancing Shield buffs your damage for +20% effectiveness, my sellsword adds 10%, 1 dancing shield (don´t stack) and 4 sellswords (stack as said) will buff your effectiveness by 60%, not 200%? A mof CW pushes effectiveness higher than most classes, his debuffs are capped at 200% tells us that "List". CW´s debuffs seem to stack , if you run with 2 of them. If a debuff is capped at 200% it should not pass 200%, not for you and not for the group ? Maybe I misunderstood those buff/debuff thing, anyway offtopic.
thanks for the update, i checked the preview and still no change.
DC status is not clear, there are 8 classes in the game and soon will see 9th. you can not continue with "need healer" forever. SW can heal party using life steal, paladin heal alot if they want. and even CW in some builds. but none seems to replace DC even when it comes to heal. at PVE DC is complete buff. the best companion someone can have. if you don't want high level run to be 100% depend on DC you need to reduce DC heals by big numbers and increase DC damage even more. DC should do 50-80% damage compare to other classes and in return heals and buffs. today DC do only 5% damage compare to his party, but buff all around him by 2X and burst heal them from 0-100% in one cast. this make DC a pure support class and a must for every party. when you look at DC path's its all all support, even rightuous is more than half party buff's
while the main rule for DC is to buff the party, allmost none of the powers scale to the claric stat. a 2.5K fresh DC can do the job allmost like a 4K. i have checked in ESVA, allmost all parties will accept me with min requirments and without companion. while a 3.8k CW with R12 bonding will go on his knees to go in.
it should not be like this. It makes claric complete begginer class. many know claric can do the job whatever his state. consider claric is all buff and it does not change alot, it gives low return for advancing in the game (in PVE)
suggestion: reduce heals by 50% and increase damage even more. change faithfull to be Divnie path and Virtuous to be Empower path. Divine path should give more divinity, buff divine heals, buff divnie damage etc. Empower path will give cool time reduction, AP gain and strong empower casts.
DC gear, stat, boons and build should be important in PVE same as they are in PVP and it should scale to his advancment in the game (like BoB and AA for example)
all test below are with 30k power. Sun burst: divine mode gives about 4k heals and damage every 2 sec for 8 sec (proc 3 times in total) - it's weak regular and empower mode are bad to use. in PVE it knock back the tagets too far and disturb your party. in PVP all got defelct now, chances to knock back are low. suggestion: remove the knock back and make it uresistable push back to a radial area of 30 feet. (like repel but much smaller and radial around you) i should be usefull in both PVE and PVE if it could clear an area rather than knocing back
healing Lore off hand bonus is 150 power - too week need to be % base
Heaing word: Divine casting only gives 6k temp HP that do not stack - it's weak empower and regular mode are very weak compare to bastion of health suggestion: Temp HP should stuck and be stronger, heals as well this skill need addtional thing to be comparable to Bastion of health, maybe something like generate 5% stamina so it can be usefull in PVE for protecting the tank and in PVP in general
Searing Light allmost no one use it cause the regular and emepower are too weak. to see how weak it is you need to check the all history of this power. one year ago you found it causes uresistable knock back in divine mode, you fixed it. 6 months ago you found it got ArP buff even without empower, you fixed it. now you found it generate AP in divine mode, you fixed it. in all this time allmost no one use it it need to do piercing damage or buff ur own ArP x2 at least if it need to do damage. or just increase the damage per empower.
Divine Fortune off hand bonus is 150 deflect - too week need to be % base
Daunting Light the delay is too long. claric can not hold someone in place for 2 sec, even in PVE.
Exaltation do not generate AP in regular/empower mode
Anointed action too weak and too short.
Annointed holy symbol gives 1.8K temp hp- too week as none of the above temp HP stack, it sometimes reset others as well.
Geas its too complicated to use. how can i tell if the target was allready impacted by it in the last 30 sec. damage threshold is weak. suggestion: make it simple, last 4 sec with short cool time. no damage threshold. (like break the spirit but without damage)
Seriously off topic but about the DR cap. Basic math says that instead of substracting the debuff value from the DR, just let it apply multiplicatively solve any need of a cap whatsoever even in a 25-man team. It will ground the DR almost to 0 but it's impossible to go beyond.
For those not so math inclined here is the simplified (and cringe inducing for any math purist) explanation
Suppose the debuff target has a base DR of 100% (why 100% when it doesn't exists in the game it's to symplify the numbers)
the first DR debuff aplies a 20% DR reduction. We get the post debuff DR value of 80% <= 100*(1-0.2)
Then comes the second DR debuff of say 15%
We then get the new DR of 68% <= 100*(1-0.2)*(1-0.15)
with a third DR debuff, a massive one of 40% the new DR would be 40.8% <= 100*(1-0.2)*(1-0.15)*(1-0.4)
And the more debuff you apply the closer to 0 you will get but you will never get there.
If we were in an additive case with this example we would already be down to 25% DR remaining on the foe.
Now what I really would like to see is a CLEAR differentiation between DR debuff and Incoming damage buffs so as to not mix the two up. Every time you see 'increase damage on target' it should mean an Incoming damage BUFF and every time you see 'reduce target mitigation' should be a DR debuff.
A simple pass to check if a feat or a power does one or the other and matching the description to the actual mechanic would save us a lot of headache. And excuse me if I seems presoumptuous or ill informed but it seems to me that a simple description change should be light on the coding side for any developper.
You can inspect the party if you think the effectiveness is too high. Anyway my list does not include exploits, there are only some obvious bugs that I decided to put in. And I am female.
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
edited March 2017
@schietindebux supose i'm a CW MoF with a T.Frost and a Dancing shield and i am debuffing the target as frigid winds without icy veins is not easy to achieve lets consider my total debuff 67%, a DC friend of mine got here and added some more DR debuff to the target making the damage increase off 100%/double/effectivness of 200% effectivness. After that i apply frost debuff and my Dancing shield debuffs the target, the effectivness will go from 200% to 200*1,3% = 260%, now that DC makes me a surprise and sumons a ambush drake (lets supose not lvl 73 target) now the effectivness wont be of 280% but 200*1.5=300% and here is why i am against uncaped debuffs, it will be prejudicial most of the times for my team if i carry for example a leader companion because boss dies much faster with a ambush drake, team takes less risks and we get rewards faster, this will lead to very experient teams to clean content much faster than non prepared teams leading to a need of lower rewards to avoid the over compensation of those teams prejudicing the weaker ones and there is absolutly no incentive in the game for pugs, if there was then the reason for those companions to exist in endgame would be acceptable.
@schietindebux supose i'm a CW MoF with a T.Frost and a Dancing shield and i am debuffing the target as frigid winds without icy veins is not easy to achieve lets consider my total debuff 67%, a DC friend of mine got here and added some more DR debuff to the target making the damage increase off 100%/double/effectivness of 200% effectivness. After that i apply frost debuff and my Dancing shield debuffs the target, the effectivness will go from 200% to 200*1,3% = 260%, now that DC makes me a surprise and sumons a ambush drake (lets supose not lvl 73 target) now the effectivness wont be of 280% but 200*1.5=300% and here is why i am against uncaped debuffs, it will be prejudicial most of the times for my team if i carry for example a leader companion because boss dies much faster with a ambush drake, team takes less risks and we get rewards faster, this will lead to very experient teams to clean content much faster than non prepared teams leading to a need of lower rewards to avoid the over compensation of those teams prejudicing the weaker ones and there is absolutly no incentive in the game for pugs, if there was then the reason for those companions to exist in endgame would be acceptable.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. I think what you are saying is that right now, uncapped debuffs (particularly those that come from ambush drake, dancing shield, con artist, sellsword but also weapon enchantments) are too good and that running other companions/we's are inferior.
They have already mentioned they are going to take a look at uncapped debuffs and almost (but didnt) nerf frost/plague. I'm sure something is going to change regarding these uncapped buffs in the future, but I think thats a discussions for another day/different thread.
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
They have already mentioned they are going to take a look at uncapped debuffs and almost (but didnt) nerf frost/plague. I'm sure something is going to change regarding these uncapped buffs in the future, but I think thats a discussions for another day/different thread.
Aye to both things, lets go back to DC's ^^.
*mumbles about terryfying insight giving 20% damage buff and foresight 8% DR and how unbalanced that is and also about shield in pvp being superior to heals".
They have already mentioned they are going to take a look at uncapped debuffs and almost (but didnt) nerf frost/plague. I'm sure something is going to change regarding these uncapped buffs in the future, but I think thats a discussions for another day/different thread.
Aye to both things, lets go back to DC's ^^.
*mumbles about terryfying insight giving 20% damage buff and foresight 8% DR and how unbalanced that is and also about shield in pvp being superior to heals".
TI is going to be interesting. I think it's a pretty fair/interesting trade off between AC and DO making both "viable" as individuals but both complimenting each as a duo. I wouldnt think foresight is going to be in the "meta" as holy fervor is too valuable to not use (imo).
Presumably, MOST of their encounters will be similar (ie. I assume both will run holy fervor as 1 of their personals and both will be attempting to keep HG + 1"other" daily up permanently), with the main differences being:
ACDC: AA + feated BoB (total: 48% power share) + hastening light (most likely).
vs.
DODC: FS or DA + TI + more individual damage/quicker divinity gains.
AA + feated BoB + hastening light is superior to TI in terms of buffs, but AA in particular requires people (and especially their companions) to be close to get hit and gets better as your groupmates get better and better bonding stones.
TI is inferior but will (I assume) have a similar range to bts and have a higher uptime than AA (or at least, not require management like AA). Since DO's dont HAVE to go into virtuous for battle fervor (I mean I guess AC's dont have to either, but....), it also gives them more options for faithful (gift of the gods), virtuous (gift of haste), or righteous (astral fury/righteous suffering/living fire) depending on how they want to round out their DC.
PVP is a whole other animal. But there are so many things wrong with PVP atm that it's a lost cause (until Cryptic deems it worth their time). Just roll with the punches in there as much as you can.
I decidet to not understand those debuffs, and thy michela for that List, it is a nice overview... doesn´t matter taht I do not understand it in the end, hitting my dummy i thought those debuffs are additive.
DC rework reminds me about warlocks rework a bit, a DO dps/buffer setup will be viable. But this all is about min/max and buffs/debuffs, wich allready dominate this game too much. No clue where content is heading for, my thoughts also circle arround a setup focussed on mitigation/heal, but I doubt this is gonna be from interest above some IL. At least is should be possible to run that setup, despite slowing down the raid 50%, but keep everyone alive...
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
TI is going to be interesting. I think it's a pretty fair/interesting trade off between AC and DO making both "viable" as individuals but both complimenting each as a duo. I wouldnt think foresight is going to be in the "meta" as holy fervor is too valuable to not use (imo).
Presumably, MOST of their encounters will be similar (ie. I assume both will run holy fervor as 1 of their personals and both will be attempting to keep HG + 1"other" daily up permanently), with the main differences being:
ACDC: AA + feated BoB (total: 48% power share) + hastening light (most likely).
vs.
DODC: FS or DA + TI + more individual damage/quicker divinity gains.
AA + feated BoB + hastening light is superior to TI in terms of buffs, but AA in particular requires people (and especially their companions) to be close to get hit and gets better as your groupmates get better and better bonding stones.
TI is inferior but will (I assume) have a similar range to bts and have a higher uptime than AA (or at least, not require management like AA). Since DO's dont HAVE to go into virtuous for battle fervor (I mean I guess AC's dont have to either, but....), it also gives them more options for faithful (gift of the gods), virtuous (gift of haste), or righteous (astral fury/righteous suffering/living fire) depending on how they want to round out their DC.
PVP is a whole other animal. But there are so many things wrong with PVP atm that it's a lost cause (until Cryptic deems it worth their time). Just roll with the punches in there as much as you can.
I agree DO does pose competition to AC but why should i even need to slot 1 single class feature to increase my party damage by 20%? I may very well want to heal them by 20% more, while adding 20% more damage will mean 20% more damage 20% more healing will mean 20% more healing until the target hp is full life and 20% (not really 20) chance for that target to need my heals because is still killing something that should already be dead. Same thing could be applyied to AC with AA that is even more powerfull and made permanent by many DC's but in hands of others will be a long time down, i do like that a class feature represents a paragon and in the other side a dailly but this does not mean they should be pro-choice, it simply means they represent alternative ways to play. Adding cooldown to AA is not a choice because only 2 daillies can be used but adding a cap to power shared would do the task also increase it's duration and 1 charge other wise we will se low ap gain players casting 1 each 40 seconds and a BIS DC every 10 seconds, my sugestion for TI remains, 10% RI for the DC and 10% increased damage for the party stacking like a underdark ring does to have a similar behavior AA + HG but also another thing, as many people already said Hamer of fate is very underwelming, since unsloting DA is a big comitment, bigger tham foresight as it is very powerfull emergency dailly now, hammer of fate should give all party additional 5% damage, unlike TI that had cost of nothing this will have the cost of much so much i would also add it to second sight feat.
Reading your guys replies in here makes it more and more clear that curent fixes favor again offencive buffing while taking awey what we all came to use as a quickfix to the point it got overpowerd, i mean AA spamming to counter the oneshot potential in endgame content, somthing i not necesarily dislike since i'm dps build myself,.. but is wrong ! should be about suporting others ! we're a suport class ... besides, is all gonna get nerfed again once we start posting videos soloying orcus and such
Leader role (HEALER) has slowly faided awey with nerfs fixing other undesired sideeffects (astral seal causing lag) and with time as base on hit heal values on healin powers aswell as temp points granted on a wep dmg modifier are those from mod 4, with a ever increasing cap on max hp and incomming dmg in both pve content and pvp.
Unbreakable Devotion, I mean 50% of weapon damage? Needs a fix/buff. Why is a feat that provides a shield based on weapon damage anyway?
While it is still a pretty low number with a goofy mechanic, the feat dates from the level 60 cap, when 30k hitpoints was quite a lot, and the game didn't equate difficulty with one-shots.
,and i tink i see a solution... not smthing new to the class but a old class mechanic that faded awey with time,... temporary hitpoints !
Sacred Flame (at-will) - curently deals to low dmg and grants temp hp based of a wep dmg modifier, worked wanderfull 3 years ago when hp cap was like 30k, neads to grant more temphp and alow that to stack to like20% max hp.
Divine Armor (daily) - grants def buff and large amount of temp hp, neads duration increase and/or have the temp hp granted not disapear when the buff ends
Anoyinted Holy Symbol (AC class Feature) - using divinity powerd encounters grant temp hp curently on a wep modifier, and does not proc atall for most encounters... bugged , neads fixing and buffing to grant more temp hp
Faithful Path - should be change to focus overhealing, stored as temp HP - alwready has some temp hp feats in there that nead fixing, aka - Divine Intervention to have it proc on all heals, not just healing spells, also the feats in here are still based off the wep modifier, should be changed to grant temp hp based on HP healed or max hp of affected target - gift of haste is obsolete due to the entire oneshot potential, stores 25% of healing done as a ward on targets, procs if target hp drops under 45%, should instead alow tep hp focus specialization , store 25% of all heals as temp hp on targets stackabile up to 100% of afected target max HP.
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kacsaneverMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 167Arc User
In addition to the changes above, I've spent a chunk of this week going over feedback in this thread and addressing it with the time I had available. Based on this feedback, I prioritized bug-fixing and addressing the relative states of Anointed Champion and Divine Oracle.
These changes are being added to the those listed in the original post:
Anointed Army
The power transferred from the Cleric to party members has been reduced from 50% to 33%. This is due to there still being too much group contribution from a single power that is exclusive to one paragon path. This reduction will be partially offset by their ability to use it in conjunction with Hallowed Ground more easily, now that AP can be generated while it is active.
This power no longer grants CC immunity after all blessings have expired.
...
Once again, the issue is not the 50% (upcoming 33%) power sharing. The issue is that bondings transfer 285% (300% if any legendary comp) of the buff. This is what shall be fixed/reworked hence it is not your task @dreadnaught#5263. Address it to the resposible colleague.
In addition to the changes above, I've spent a chunk of this week going over feedback in this thread and addressing it with the time I had available. Based on this feedback, I prioritized bug-fixing and addressing the relative states of Anointed Champion and Divine Oracle.
These changes are being added to the those listed in the original post:
Anointed Army
The power transferred from the Cleric to party members has been reduced from 50% to 33%. This is due to there still being too much group contribution from a single power that is exclusive to one paragon path. This reduction will be partially offset by their ability to use it in conjunction with Hallowed Ground more easily, now that AP can be generated while it is active.
This power no longer grants CC immunity after all blessings have expired.
...
Once again, the issue is not the 50% (upcoming 33%) power sharing. The issue is that bondings transfer 285% (300% if any legendary comp) of the buff. This is what shall be fixed/reworked hence it is not your task @dreadnaught#5263. Address it to the resposible colleague.
That´s the major reason why thing are out of order.
Reading your guys replies in here makes it more and more clear that curent fixes favor again offencive buffing while taking awey what we all came to use as a quickfix to the point it got overpowerd, i mean AA spamming to counter the oneshot potential in endgame content, somthing i not necesarily dislike since i'm dps build myself,.. but is wrong ! should be about suporting others ! we're a suport class ... besides, is all gonna get nerfed again once we start posting videos soloying orcus and such
Leader role (HEALER) has slowly faided awey with nerfs fixing other undesired sideeffects (astral seal causing lag) and with time as base on hit heal values on healin powers aswell as temp points granted on a wep dmg modifier are those from mod 4, with a ever increasing cap on max hp and incomming dmg in both pve content and pvp.
Unbreakable Devotion, I mean 50% of weapon damage? Needs a fix/buff. Why is a feat that provides a shield based on weapon damage anyway?
While it is still a pretty low number with a goofy mechanic, the feat dates from the level 60 cap, when 30k hitpoints was quite a lot, and the game didn't equate difficulty with one-shots.
,and i tink i see a solution... not smthing new to the class but a old class mechanic that faded awey with time,... temporary hitpoints !
Sacred Flame (at-will) - curently deals to low dmg and grants temp hp based of a wep dmg modifier, worked wanderfull 3 years ago when hp cap was like 30k, neads to grant more temphp and alow that to stack to like20% max hp.
Divine Armor (daily) - grants def buff and large amount of temp hp, neads duration increase and/or have the temp hp granted not disapear when the buff ends
Anoyinted Holy Symbol (AC class Feature) - using divinity powerd encounters grant temp hp curently on a wep modifier, and does not proc atall for most encounters... bugged , neads fixing and buffing to grant more temp hp
Faithful Path - should be change to focus overhealing, stored as temp HP - alwready has some temp hp feats in there that nead fixing, aka - Divine Intervention to have it proc on all heals, not just healing spells, also the feats in here are still based off the wep modifier, should be changed to grant temp hp based on HP healed or max hp of affected target - gift of haste is obsolete due to the entire oneshot potential, stores 25% of healing done as a ward on targets, procs if target hp drops under 45%, should instead alow tep hp focus specialization , store 25% of all heals as temp hp on targets stackabile up to 100% of afected target max HP.
Same I tried to point at few pages back, and maybe a way to build arround heal/mitigation even in times of oneshots. But i guess at first we need to have the option to test the actual changes...
"-Sacred flame -HP buff too low, I did never thought about that burning aspekt, if this At will should have a meaning, give it an option to trigger a Fireburst on 3. hit by feats like "Living fire" or an empowered HP buff by "Cleansing fire" (virtous) -Annoited Holy symbol, did not work last time I tried, could be tied to a feat in the faithfull tree - maybe change "Prestigious Exaltation" into a temp HP-buff, by that should give some builds more options for mitigation -Warding flare, long CD and in times of onehits a 500% Weapondamageshield sounds not that much - or am I wrong? It could be improved in the virtous tree by feating "Unbreakable Devotion"
Warding flare is 10% now, but the uptime is redicules to be from any interest.
Thanks for the update, i checked the preview and still no change.
DC role is not clear, there are 8 classes and soon will see the 9th. You can't continue forever with "need DC" for every high run. Paladin can heal a lot if they want, SW as well, even CW in some builds. But none seems to replace DC. DC do 5% damage compare to other classes but buff of all around him by 2X, DC can also heal from 0 to 100% with one cast. This makes DC the best companion. While DC only buff his party, none of his buffs correlate to his advancements (GS, stat, build, boons, bonus..)
I checked in ESVA, groups will accept me with min requirements even without a companion. While a 3.8K CW with R12 bonding need to go on his knees. PPL will take DC regardless of his state, cause they know 2.5K DC will do the job almost like 4K. Almost all DC feats are party related (even rightous is more than half party buffs)
Suggestion: Reduce heals by 50% and increase damge even more. DC should do around 50% damage compare to other classes and in return give some heals and buffs. Change virtous to divine path (increase divine heals, damage, divinity etc.) and faithful to empower path (reduce cool time, AP gain, damage etc.)
The numbers below is with 30K power: Sun Burst Divine do 4k damage and heal every 2 sec for 8 sec (total of 3 ticks) – it’s weak Regular mode is bad to use, it knock back all the adds in PVE and in PVP as all got deflect it is not effective Suggestion: Increase divine mode damage and heals, change regular mode to irresistible push back (like repeal but 30 feet diameter around the DC)
Healer’s lore Off hand bonus is 150 stat – it’s weak It should be % based
Healing ward Divine mode do 6K temp HP that do not stack – it’s weak Suggestion: Increase the temp HP and let them stack. Empower mode should do additional thing to be competitive with bastion of health. Something like 5% stamina gain will be useful in both PVP and PVE
Searing light Almost no one use it cause the empower mode is weak . To understand how weak it is, you need to check it’s history Last year you found divine mode create irresistible push back, it was fixed 6 months ago you found it have ArP in divine and regular, it was fixed Now you found it generate AP in divine mode, it will be fixed. In all this time no one use it cause the empower mode is so weak. It need to do piercing damage or do 3X more ArP Or just increase the damage per empower
Divine Forutne Off hand bonus is 150 stat – it’s weak It should be % based
Daunting light Delay is too long. cleric cannot hold someone for 2 sec, even in PVE.
Exaltation Do not generate AP
Anointed action Too weak and too short
Anointed holy symbol Only proc with DL and chains, generate 1.8K temp HP that do not stack – very weak Sometimes it reset all other temp HP you have
Geas Too complicated to use, how can I tell if someone was effected by it 30 sec ago? The damage threshold is too weak. Suggestion: Make is simple, last 4 sec and short cool time (like Bts but stronger debuff and without damage)
I have a bug with Chains of Blazing Light. When i cast chains, normal, divine or empowered version, the chains do not disappear when enemies step on them or are hit by them. No mention of this issue anywhere. Am i the only one with this bug?
no , chains are bugged, in many weys, do not proc all feats and companion active bonuses, also on some ocasions had them not trigger atall in divine mode when placed in the path of some npc... walked over it with nothin happening. Are mainly still used for the AP gain ,... AP gain that will be removed from divine mode soon )
I have a bug with Chains of Blazing Light. When i cast chains, normal, divine or empowered version, the chains do not disappear when enemies step on them or are hit by them. No mention of this issue anywhere. Am i the only one with this bug?
You are not the only one. We called it "inactive chains" or something awhile back. It was also mentioned (by me) in the Devoted Cleric Bug List thread.
Wait a second... There are a million DPS queueing for pug dungeons runs - all waiting for a healer - because nobody likes playing healer. So a few people decide to make DC's and actually help compete the "holy trinity" and when it works too well, the answer is to nerf DC???
Did I read that right?
I couldn't have. You want to scale back a DC's best powers, powers that aren't new, just because end game content is being cleared fast?
Seriously...? Way to kick a guy when he's down. What is the motivation to come off a DPS and play DC now if it's just gonna get nerfed if I make the content too easy?
Nerf AA because people build around a single power? That's nuts. What a terrible dev idea. Take a class that is already grossly underplayed in relation to the overall population (see dungeon queues) and nerf it???
Wow. Just wow.
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
I have a few questions for DC's from module 5 and under (mine if from module 7 so i have no idea). What was the reason that lead you to play and keep playing DC? If you tried diferent paths, what made them interesting between them? Was there any time betwwen mod 1-5 that a power was unbalanced like AA? If so what was the opinion of players not after the nerf but some time after it occured? Considering that you cannot be super powerfull in any kind of expertise other than yours (buffing and healing) but yes fill your correspondent place in a party what would incentivate you to play DC more often? (for example me: Instead paingiver and other charts coeficient of utility, heals + damagage mitigated + damage cooresponding to buffs + damage for a better valorizing of all the classes since paingiver is so valued, tiamat has something like this).
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
What was the reason that lead you to play and keep playing DC?
Can't speak for everyone, but pre-MOD5 i ran multiple classes with DC being one of them. I had 7 class/characters until mod 3. Then I went down to 3. When mod5 rolled around I went down to 1 choosing to main the DC because it had the most versatility of any class, tanks come and go from popularity but dc usually has atleast one function that keeps it from exclusion on dungeon runs.
Was there any time betwwen mod 1-5 that a power was unbalanced like AA? If so what was the opinion of players not after the nerf but some time after it occured?
Yes there have been several nerfs, some more impactful than others. To say there was something that was something severly overpowered. Once upon a time you could stack HG. So putting down 2 HG gave you twice the damage buff. Now we didn't have 10 person raids and HEs weren't in every piece of content like they are today, so really your talking about 5 person dungeon runs but if you had multiple DCs you could really stack the HG for big buffs. A similar thing happened with AS where you could stack it and get huge buffs to damage resistance making your party immortal. There have been some other things like broken abilities one-shotting dragons, etc but their wasn't 14 pages of outcry over it.
Considering that you cannot be super powerfull in any kind of expertise other than yours (buffing and healing) but yes fill your correspondent place in a party what would incentivate you to play DC more often? (for example me: Instead paingiver and other charts coeficient of utility, heals + damagage mitigated + damage cooresponding to buffs + damage for a better valorizing of all the classes since paingiver is so valued, tiamat has something like this).
I still like the cleric's mix and flexibility. The divinity is a interesting mechanic (much better than managing pips on SW). The DC can do a lot of things, the only limitation is your pocketbook.
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pyrosorcererMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 137Arc User
Re. Treesclimber:
I made my DC around late mod 3/early mod 4, but the reason was to heal and keep the party going forward. I loved to see the green numbers popping and make party damage go up through buffs. Later I started my other main, a SW, but not for the DPS aspect. I aimed for the temptation route to have yet another healer. Healing. . . an aspect of the game that seems to fade..
Wait a second... There are a million DPS queueing for pug dungeons runs - all waiting for a healer - because nobody likes playing healer. So a few people decide to make DC's and actually help compete the "holy trinity" and when it works too well, the answer is to nerf DC???
Did I read that right?
I couldn't have. You want to scale back a DC's best powers, powers that aren't new, just because end game content is being cleared fast?
Seriously...? Way to kick a guy when he's down. What is the motivation to come off a DPS and play DC now if it's just gonna get nerfed if I make the content too easy?
Nerf AA because people build around a single power? That's nuts. What a terrible dev idea. Take a class that is already grossly underplayed in relation to the overall population (see dungeon queues) and nerf it???
Wow. Just wow.
I like playing a healer, but I definitely don´t like playing that class as it is right now. mSVA is nothing than a silly boss bashing due a broken power, same nonsense like Mr. Bubble, watching the raid hitting the boss and dumping every fkn aoe inside the raid, ignoring every aspect of that fight. AA is broken since mod 10, it was somehow overpowered even before, since that rework i guess. When I started a DC AA was not a big deal, the "balls" run out in no time and the mitigation aspect was pretty poor. The moment the rework is getting live you will see a lot of changes. Some DC´s will go DO-dps/buffer, some will stay right-AC, some will go into faithfull or virtous/healer...atm we only know one setup. There are enough options to compensate those changes. A lot of GF´s went dps, since there is no need for a tank atm. They can "lock-in" the boss with Knights Challenge in mSVA due to those crazy balls surrounding them. Same with all striker classes, all that counts is dps/glasscanon. If those guys recognize, that their class just sucks under the new conditions, they will search for soultions. You will see much more versatility in other classes, that´s what I hope for at least. Templocks, devotion Pallys, Tactition GF´s due to better support/mitigation/AP gain etc.
DC was always broken, more than half od DC powers/ feats ar not functioning at any given time.
DC always have something extreamly "usefull" to give AP gain using gifts of haste DR buff to GF using AS Geas knock down bosses Sun burst did iressitable knock back at mode 5, but even before it knock back some bosses (CN)
at Mod5 DC was a beast, rightous was crazy strong, i think the dev don't want to update every week so they create updtae looking forawrd. (same as HR now) DC was strong ar mod5 but once all other classes got update and L70 is max, DC became weak.
before mode 5, DC was very weak, but all around you were weak as well. ppl had rank 5 enchants (rank 10 was the max), getting purple item was hard, lesser enchants was very common and we had very little boons (no mount bonus and even artifact were not legendary at start and you could only have one) so you can imagine how important DC was at that time (i was short on gold for buying potions and injury kits)
most DC before mod 5 did'nt even pick cap boon. there were few feats that work and allmost all chose hybrid path we did mainly small healing back than and allmost no one used bastion of health, other powers did heal at that time. players had 20K HP so it was not that hard to heal them
but know its different, there are more classes and you can not make DC mandatory for every run.
GF is support class, i wana see you not dodging his attacks. DC cast full empower FF, players decide to ignore its exitance. ppl won't bother to dodge
I have a few questions for DC's from module 5 and under (mine if from module 7 so i have no idea). What was the reason that lead you to play and keep playing DC? If you tried diferent paths, what made them interesting between them? Was there any time betwwen mod 1-5 that a power was unbalanced like AA? If so what was the opinion of players not after the nerf but some time after it occured? Considering that you cannot be super powerfull in any kind of expertise other than yours (buffing and healing) but yes fill your correspondent place in a party what would incentivate you to play DC more often? (for example me: Instead paingiver and other charts coeficient of utility, heals + damagage mitigated + damage cooresponding to buffs + damage for a better valorizing of all the classes since paingiver is so valued, tiamat has something like this).
The abuse of AA happened cos people saw it can help them survive getting one hit , when healing and everything else did nothing. AS did not save a pally in front of Orcus. HG + AS did not save a pally. My healing over time is freaking HAMSTER. It does not help a tank who is just starting.
The bosses hit harder and harder. I can not wait to open SP to see how hard the bosses will hit in there. And how many people will be able to finish it without 100 mass scrolls of life. O
In mod one to 4 we healed. Buffed. Did some damage. Soloed dungeons... ( cough... ) But the amount of HP people had and the amount of damage taken , was not so high. I was a righteous path back then. I could solo stuff easily. I knew with a few dodges i could avoid dying. Exept old SP. But then again you could sunburst enemies of the platform so that worked as well. Lair Of The Mad Dragon Dungeon... i do not even remember it any more.. It is sad.. I remmeber the last boss. The dragon but heck everything else i really do not. Old CN was frustrating but it was done by the best... And it took a freaking long time. Icewindale was third so it was Kesells. Tyranny forth = Tiamat. The scaling that had to be done to tiamat went through a few mods if i am not mistaken. LOL There was even a test Tiamat done by Developers. In order for them to see how hard it was.
40 % to 50 % of the community on Neverwinter are struggling with learning their class. That includes DCs . Other % are players who know what they are doing. And are trying to teach people how to play.
AA made it easier. It also made players lazy. And just like the Pally bubble it was a shortcut people abused. Just like Pirate king thingy. People got banned for that.
But let me ask you this. By your standards . Who are the people that are okay enough to do Tiamat runs, CN, FBI , MSVA or any other content.
People make mistakes. They are not perfect. I have seen pallies who do not like tanking. SWs who adore lifesteal more then anything. GWIFS whos only perp in life is to run in front and hit that boss like there is no tomorrow. DCs who are top in Paingiver. I personally have nothing against it. If it suits them who am i to complain. If a CW wants to be a buffer who am i to say it is not a good idea.
If DC's want to be damage dealers . Good for them. If they want to do just buffing/ debuffing , hey even better.
I just want to be able to make a difference, to save someone, to be useful to my party and my team. It is why i play DC in the first place. Be it healing, buffing or doing damage. I am willing to sacrifice damage to do buffing / debuffing . Or healing. If it makes a difference. I am willing to stick to my tank like a bee. Or if my tank knows what he is doing to run around buffing the damage dealers and their glass builds. While debuffing the bosses. The ultimate goal should be to finish the dungeon and get the reward. Correct ?
I do remember mod 6. The chaos. And what bosses did to us. All the crying on the forums about people not being able to finish the dungeons. They scaled them, scaled us too. Raising our HP every mod , more and more. But DCs healing stayed the same. The powers did not raise with the scaling. Every mod they need to make the dungeons harder. To scale with us who are leveling our IL and getting stronger. Doing more damage to the mobs and bosses. But what happens when you can not protect yourself from the damage bosses are doing ? People will always try to find a way to do things faster and easier.
I have a few questions for DC's from module 5 and under (mine if from module 7 so i have no idea). What was the reason that lead you to play and keep playing DC? If you tried diferent paths, what made them interesting between them? Was there any time betwwen mod 1-5 that a power was unbalanced like AA? If so what was the opinion of players not after the nerf but some time after it occured? Considering that you cannot be super powerfull in any kind of expertise other than yours (buffing and healing) but yes fill your correspondent place in a party what would incentivate you to play DC more often? (for example me: Instead paingiver and other charts coeficient of utility, heals + damagage mitigated + damage cooresponding to buffs + damage for a better valorizing of all the classes since paingiver is so valued, tiamat has something like this).
I started playing DC to be a healer. After the big DC rework back in mod 5, I spent most of my time as a virtuous building my DC around 3 main feats: heals, power sharing and AP gain. Curiously such a setup always worked along all the nerfs, mods, new features with some adaptations here and there. In mod 6 such a setup was very effective if combined with an OP: the DC could feed the perma bubble of the OP and that became the prevailing way to complete the T2 dungeons, up to the ridiculous point to make the runs trivial. At that time AA had two functions: power share and preveniting the OP "explosion". I can add the funny OP-GF interaction where the OP became a nuke bomb: The OP died, killing whoever is around - please no strange ideas: now it's fixed.
The main point is that, while the DC was always the same, the game changed around us, opening new opportunities and constraints: teams > 5 players, the new queue mechanic, bonding runestones interaction ( @illhora, @lerapiso818) , insigna bonus, artifact interaction ( @jazzfong), deep knowledge of the buff/debuff mechanic (@michela123 , @thefabricant ) more and more ways to stack APs up to the moment where the DCs asked theirselves how to take benefit of all these features and the possible options despite the long standing list of bugs. For example, in the temple forum you find an old discussion where the HG vs AA was deeply analyzed, but also a nice chart from @putzboy78 where different DC builds are compared at high level. The results of this process are DC builds like the excellent one released by @jeffslider.
All that knowledge gave us the tools to always adapt: this is the good and the bad point at the same time.
The good: the DC is so flexible that we always find our way. The DC class is designed in a way the many DCs love finding interactions with other classes more than focusing on this or that ability.
The bad: all the new features added from mod 6 to mod 11 were not released having the DC in mind. That's why we saw flying DCs, 1kkk power share, perma dailies and so on - now everything is (more or less) fixed. On the other hand, heals are not needed anymore, making the virtuous and the faithfull paths less requested. That's why, at the end, some experienced DCs converged on a general framework (AC DC Righteous, but there's also the DO variation) where you can decide to focus more on dps, buff/debuff or AP gain and where AA give you (bugged) mitigation and power share - just read this discussion, it's all about these features. The end result is that I often meet many DCs who don't know what they are doing, but they works (mainly because many features are not strictly linked to the IL).
Where we are today it's the result of a random process where the players found many opportunities that the devs never figured out. Now they are trying to fix/review them, but I think this is not done in the right way because we got a list of patches instead of a new design that meet the current and future contents. So we have to adapt again: I'm quite optimistic, but there is room to do much better.
Post edited by rapo973 on
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Where did my post go ? I did not mention anything wrong... i think... maybe...
In any case : Mod 1 to 5 : We could solo dungeons if righteous path by ourself. Our healing was useful . Bosses did not one hit . People did not have so much HP and bosses did not do so much damage. Sunburst did amazing stuff in SP. AA was not really needed. You could save your party by doing AS + HG. Or divine armor. That was useful. Etc..
Okay, just wanted to update everyone on what happened with the DPS DC thing I had been arguing, since I know everyone was deeply curious (yeah... not). I decided to not make a new thread, since I think I can stay on topic this time.
I ran several MSVAs and FBIs (along with a CN, and IG) with @thefabricant. What we (or at least I) discovered was that it wouldn't even matter if DC could do enough DPS to keep up with a DPS class. They DC's have no chance of actually dealing their DPS. They can't hit anything. Not because enemies move, or stuff is hard to hit, but because everything is spawning and dying in the same second. Even divine Daunting Light and Divine Chains couldn't land. It was so crazy that my primary source of damage (Daunting Light [divine or otherwise]) got outdamaged by Fire of the Gods. The ratio is normally 50% of my damage as Daunting Light and 13% as Fire of the Gods to give you an idea of how much I missed. I had to miss at least 75% of the Daunting Lights I would normally land in a casual 3k dungeon run. I even had trouble simply gaining divinity in these dungeon runs.
I mentioned that in the previous posts that to have any chance, fights have to last longer than 5 seconds. They don't, gg. Even in the most optimal situation (where a DC can land all their abilities), they will only be able to contribute to every other fight due to their lack of divinity between fights.
I think that DC should probably have a way to regenerate divinity outside of combat, or they seem somewhat useless for trash clearing, even in a buff/debuff situation. It would be nice if Sacred Flames were changed to something similar to pally Cure Wounds for regenerating divinity out of combat. It would be even nicer if DC simply regenerated Divinity Slowly while out of combat.
Looking at DC powers in this situation, most of them are absolutely useless. I don't think I could cast Prophecy of Doom on anything not named "Jarl Storvald, simply because everything dies too fast. It seems like the AP/Cooldown function was meant for applying to trash/adds, but you cannot even finish the cast animation before trash dies. I believe it should be changed to the same casting functionality of SW/GF tab mechanic. Otherwise it's almost useless. Not only that, but the divinity mode is a joke. It deals double damage to targets already marked with PoD. Yeah, but it's base damage is so low that it would be more worthwhile to just channel Punishing Light for the same duration as the excessive cast time
Now since DC can't deal any damage in premade groups, can we look at all of the useless powers for solo content.
All of the DC DoT powers do very little damage in even the 3k dungeons I run. Not because stuff dies too quickly, but because they simply deal deal little damage. In the runs with @thefabricant, I don't think any of the DoTs ticked more than a single time before the target died. with a base damage of around 9k (dealing this damage over the entire duration), I wouldn't be surprised if they dealt below 1% of my damage (they normally sit around 4%. It may not matter too much in a dungeon how much damage a cleric is dealing (that isn't what they are there for), but having basic powers with damage that low makes soloing daily/weekly content a nightmare. I don't think the 30% increase is enough for the Damage over Time powers (Break the Spirit, Sunburst, and Forgemaster's Flame). These powers are so far behind Daunting Light that a cleric loses DPS simply by casting them in solo content, even after considering the buff they give when empowered.
Searing Light has a similar issue to the DoTs, but for a different reason. It has some utility attached, which is supposed to balance out the fact that it does less damage than Daunting Light or Chains of Blazing Light. However the utility is useless. Armor Pen on the empowered version is either useless, or not enough to matter when you look at the base damage in comparison with Daunting Light. The heals and AoE damage from this power aren't even high enough to compete with daunting light and Repurpose Soul. It needs a higher base damage, even if it costs the "utility" of the armor pen increase and heals (if it actually has either of those things).
Overall I like the damage increases now, since obviously DC isn't even going to get near a top DPS class, but could we look at some of the weaker powers and balance out the damage on them, so that all of the powers are at least marginally useful for solo content? I don't want to see Daunting Light outdamaged by all the other abilities, but I don't want to lose solo clear speed by simply casting anything other than Daunting Light and at-wills.
This damage cannot be deflected or resisted. It can be blocked by GF shield, or shields like Astral Shield, but it does absolutely absurd damage to anyone it hits.
Sorry I don't know how hard the TR was trying, and obviously it wasn't a fair fight in the first place, since he started with such low HP, but either way a 2.6k DPS DC in blue guild pvp gear and only 2k armor pen probably shouldn't be able to do this to a 4k TR http://plays.tv/video/58bafc4422186dc767/fun-moments-unfair-duel-with-a-4k-tr-
It's extremely difficult to use this feat in pvp and not die, but if successful it is devastating. This may not be a bug, but the wording of the feat seems wrong then. It would be nice if it simply was a % damage buff (like Avatar) after these changes. That way it could improve Fire of the Gods.
Wow, piercing damage!! DC finally can deal some good damage in pvp, loved it!!!! The only cons part is only activated below 30% hp, while in pvp it is usually 100% or dead, kinda interesting, hope it stays as piercing instead of normal damage multiplier.
Comments
Following that List, there are no uncapped buffs from classes that are shared effectively with the group.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N8Y_AmqnnhOdaCT2Sg9e-OcC0m6q5nUJLfujZVsI1Z0/edit#gid=0
Companions do spend those buffs, some artifacts, plaguefire and frost.
My dancing Shield buffs your damage for +20% effectiveness, my sellsword adds 10%, 1 dancing shield (don´t stack) and 4 sellswords (stack as said) will buff your effectiveness by 60%, not 200%?
A mof CW pushes effectiveness higher than most classes, his debuffs are capped at 200% tells us that "List".
CW´s debuffs seem to stack , if you run with 2 of them.
If a debuff is capped at 200% it should not pass 200%, not for you and not for the group ?
Maybe I misunderstood those buff/debuff thing, anyway offtopic.
DC status is not clear, there are 8 classes in the game and soon will see 9th.
you can not continue with "need healer" forever.
SW can heal party using life steal, paladin heal alot if they want. and even CW in some builds.
but none seems to replace DC even when it comes to heal.
at PVE DC is complete buff. the best companion someone can have.
if you don't want high level run to be 100% depend on DC you need to reduce DC heals by big numbers and increase DC damage even more.
DC should do 50-80% damage compare to other classes and in return heals and buffs.
today DC do only 5% damage compare to his party, but buff all around him by 2X and burst heal them from 0-100% in one cast.
this make DC a pure support class and a must for every party.
when you look at DC path's its all all support, even rightuous is more than half party buff's
while the main rule for DC is to buff the party, allmost none of the powers scale to the claric stat.
a 2.5K fresh DC can do the job allmost like a 4K.
i have checked in ESVA, allmost all parties will accept me with min requirments and without companion.
while a 3.8k CW with R12 bonding will go on his knees to go in.
it should not be like this.
It makes claric complete begginer class. many know claric can do the job whatever his state.
consider claric is all buff and it does not change alot, it gives low return for advancing in the game (in PVE)
suggestion:
reduce heals by 50% and increase damage even more.
change faithfull to be Divnie path and Virtuous to be Empower path.
Divine path should give more divinity, buff divine heals, buff divnie damage etc.
Empower path will give cool time reduction, AP gain and strong empower casts.
DC gear, stat, boons and build should be important in PVE same as they are in PVP and it should scale to his advancment in the game (like BoB and AA for example)
all test below are with 30k power.
Sun burst:
divine mode gives about 4k heals and damage every 2 sec for 8 sec (proc 3 times in total) - it's weak
regular and empower mode are bad to use.
in PVE it knock back the tagets too far and disturb your party.
in PVP all got defelct now, chances to knock back are low.
suggestion:
remove the knock back and make it uresistable push back to a radial area of 30 feet. (like repel but much smaller and radial around you)
i should be usefull in both PVE and PVE if it could clear an area rather than knocing back
healing Lore
off hand bonus is 150 power - too week
need to be % base
Heaing word:
Divine casting only gives 6k temp HP that do not stack - it's weak
empower and regular mode are very weak compare to bastion of health
suggestion:
Temp HP should stuck and be stronger, heals as well
this skill need addtional thing to be comparable to Bastion of health, maybe something like generate 5% stamina so it can be usefull in PVE for protecting the tank and in PVP in general
Searing Light
allmost no one use it cause the regular and emepower are too weak.
to see how weak it is you need to check the all history of this power.
one year ago you found it causes uresistable knock back in divine mode, you fixed it.
6 months ago you found it got ArP buff even without empower, you fixed it.
now you found it generate AP in divine mode, you fixed it.
in all this time allmost no one use it
it need to do piercing damage or buff ur own ArP x2 at least if it need to do damage.
or just increase the damage per empower.
Divine Fortune
off hand bonus is 150 deflect - too week
need to be % base
Daunting Light
the delay is too long. claric can not hold someone in place for 2 sec, even in PVE.
Exaltation
do not generate AP in regular/empower mode
Anointed action
too weak and too short.
Annointed holy symbol
gives 1.8K temp hp- too week
as none of the above temp HP stack, it sometimes reset others as well.
Geas
its too complicated to use. how can i tell if the target was allready impacted by it in the last 30 sec.
damage threshold is weak.
suggestion:
make it simple, last 4 sec with short cool time. no damage threshold. (like break the spirit but without damage)
For those not so math inclined here is the simplified (and cringe inducing for any math purist) explanation
Suppose the debuff target has a base DR of 100% (why 100% when it doesn't exists in the game it's to symplify the numbers)
the first DR debuff aplies a 20% DR reduction. We get the post debuff DR value of 80% <= 100*(1-0.2)
Then comes the second DR debuff of say 15%
We then get the new DR of 68% <= 100*(1-0.2)*(1-0.15)
with a third DR debuff, a massive one of 40% the new DR would be 40.8% <= 100*(1-0.2)*(1-0.15)*(1-0.4)
And the more debuff you apply the closer to 0 you will get but you will never get there.
If we were in an additive case with this example we would already be down to 25% DR remaining on the foe.
Now what I really would like to see is a CLEAR differentiation between DR debuff and Incoming damage buffs so as to not mix the two up.
Every time you see 'increase damage on target' it should mean an Incoming damage BUFF and every time you see 'reduce target mitigation' should be a DR debuff.
A simple pass to check if a feat or a power does one or the other and matching the description to the actual mechanic would save us a lot of headache. And excuse me if I seems presoumptuous or ill informed but it seems to me that a simple description change should be light on the coding side for any developper.
After that i apply frost debuff and my Dancing shield debuffs the target, the effectivness will go from 200% to 200*1,3% = 260%, now that DC makes me a surprise and sumons a ambush drake (lets supose not lvl 73 target) now the effectivness wont be of 280% but 200*1.5=300% and here is why i am against uncaped debuffs, it will be prejudicial most of the times for my team if i carry for example a leader companion because boss dies much faster with a ambush drake, team takes less risks and we get rewards faster, this will lead to very experient teams to clean content much faster than non prepared teams leading to a need of lower rewards to avoid the over compensation of those teams prejudicing the weaker ones and there is absolutly no incentive in the game for pugs, if there was then the reason for those companions to exist in endgame would be acceptable.
They have already mentioned they are going to take a look at uncapped debuffs and almost (but didnt) nerf frost/plague. I'm sure something is going to change regarding these uncapped buffs in the future, but I think thats a discussions for another day/different thread.
*mumbles about terryfying insight giving 20% damage buff and foresight 8% DR and how unbalanced that is and also about shield in pvp being superior to heals".
Presumably, MOST of their encounters will be similar (ie. I assume both will run holy fervor as 1 of their personals and both will be attempting to keep HG + 1"other" daily up permanently), with the main differences being:
ACDC: AA + feated BoB (total: 48% power share) + hastening light (most likely).
vs.
DODC: FS or DA + TI + more individual damage/quicker divinity gains.
AA + feated BoB + hastening light is superior to TI in terms of buffs, but AA in particular requires people (and especially their companions) to be close to get hit and gets better as your groupmates get better and better bonding stones.
TI is inferior but will (I assume) have a similar range to bts and have a higher uptime than AA (or at least, not require management like AA). Since DO's dont HAVE to go into virtuous for battle fervor (I mean I guess AC's dont have to either, but....), it also gives them more options for faithful (gift of the gods), virtuous (gift of haste), or righteous (astral fury/righteous suffering/living fire) depending on how they want to round out their DC.
PVP is a whole other animal. But there are so many things wrong with PVP atm that it's a lost cause (until Cryptic deems it worth their time). Just roll with the punches in there as much as you can.
DC rework reminds me about warlocks rework a bit, a DO dps/buffer setup will be viable.
But this all is about min/max and buffs/debuffs, wich allready dominate this game too much.
No clue where content is heading for, my thoughts also circle arround a setup focussed on mitigation/heal, but I doubt this is gonna be from interest above some IL.
At least is should be possible to run that setup, despite slowing down the raid 50%, but keep everyone alive...
besides, is all gonna get nerfed again once we start posting videos soloying orcus and such
Sacred Flame (at-will) - curently deals to low dmg and grants temp hp based of a wep dmg modifier, worked wanderfull 3 years ago when hp cap was like 30k, neads to grant more temphp and alow that to stack to like20% max hp.
Divine Armor (daily) - grants def buff and large amount of temp hp, neads duration increase and/or have the temp hp granted not disapear when the buff ends
Anoyinted Holy Symbol (AC class Feature) - using divinity powerd encounters grant temp hp curently on a wep modifier, and does not proc atall for most encounters... bugged , neads fixing and buffing to grant more temp hp
Faithful Path - should be change to focus overhealing, stored as temp HP
- alwready has some temp hp feats in there that nead fixing, aka - Divine Intervention to have it proc on all heals, not just healing spells, also the feats in here are still based off the wep modifier, should be changed to grant temp hp based on HP healed or max hp of affected target
- gift of haste is obsolete due to the entire oneshot potential, stores 25% of healing done as a ward on targets, procs if target hp drops under 45%, should instead alow tep hp focus specialization , store 25% of all heals as temp hp on targets stackabile up to 100% of afected target max HP.
But i guess at first we need to have the option to test the actual changes...
"-Sacred flame -HP buff too low, I did never thought about that burning aspekt, if this At will should have a meaning, give it an option to trigger a Fireburst on 3. hit by feats like "Living fire" or an empowered HP buff by "Cleansing fire" (virtous)
-Annoited Holy symbol, did not work last time I tried, could be tied to a feat in the faithfull tree - maybe change "Prestigious Exaltation" into a temp HP-buff, by that should give some builds more options for mitigation
-Warding flare, long CD and in times of onehits a 500% Weapondamageshield sounds not that much - or am I wrong?
It could be improved in the virtous tree by feating "Unbreakable Devotion"
Warding flare is 10% now, but the uptime is redicules to be from any interest.
Thanks for the update, i checked the preview and still no change.
DC role is not clear, there are 8 classes and soon will see the 9th. You can't continue forever with "need DC" for every high run.
Paladin can heal a lot if they want, SW as well, even CW in some builds. But none seems to replace DC.
DC do 5% damage compare to other classes but buff of all around him by 2X, DC can also heal from 0 to 100% with one cast.
This makes DC the best companion.
While DC only buff his party, none of his buffs correlate to his advancements (GS, stat, build, boons, bonus..)
I checked in ESVA, groups will accept me with min requirements even without a companion.
While a 3.8K CW with R12 bonding need to go on his knees.
PPL will take DC regardless of his state, cause they know 2.5K DC will do the job almost like 4K.
Almost all DC feats are party related (even rightous is more than half party buffs)
Suggestion:
Reduce heals by 50% and increase damge even more. DC should do around 50% damage compare to other classes and in return give some heals and buffs.
Change virtous to divine path (increase divine heals, damage, divinity etc.) and faithful to empower path (reduce cool time, AP gain, damage etc.)
The numbers below is with 30K power:
Sun Burst
Divine do 4k damage and heal every 2 sec for 8 sec (total of 3 ticks) – it’s weak
Regular mode is bad to use, it knock back all the adds in PVE and in PVP as all got deflect it is not effective
Suggestion:
Increase divine mode damage and heals, change regular mode to irresistible push back (like repeal but 30 feet diameter around the DC)
Healer’s lore
Off hand bonus is 150 stat – it’s weak
It should be % based
Healing ward
Divine mode do 6K temp HP that do not stack – it’s weak
Suggestion:
Increase the temp HP and let them stack. Empower mode should do additional thing to be competitive with bastion of health. Something like 5% stamina gain will be useful in both PVP and PVE
Searing light
Almost no one use it cause the empower mode is weak .
To understand how weak it is, you need to check it’s history
Last year you found divine mode create irresistible push back, it was fixed
6 months ago you found it have ArP in divine and regular, it was fixed
Now you found it generate AP in divine mode, it will be fixed.
In all this time no one use it cause the empower mode is so weak.
It need to do piercing damage or do 3X more ArP
Or just increase the damage per empower
Divine Forutne
Off hand bonus is 150 stat – it’s weak
It should be % based
Daunting light
Delay is too long. cleric cannot hold someone for 2 sec, even in PVE.
Exaltation
Do not generate AP
Anointed action
Too weak and too short
Anointed holy symbol
Only proc with DL and chains, generate 1.8K temp HP that do not stack – very weak
Sometimes it reset all other temp HP you have
Geas
Too complicated to use, how can I tell if someone was effected by it 30 sec ago?
The damage threshold is too weak.
Suggestion:
Make is simple, last 4 sec and short cool time (like Bts but stronger debuff and without damage)
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
The divinity chains ap gain fix alone is a huge and consequential change. Might be too much of a nerf combined with the other changes.
Did I read that right?
I couldn't have. You want to scale back a DC's best powers, powers that aren't new, just because end game content is being cleared fast?
Seriously...? Way to kick a guy when he's down. What is the motivation to come off a DPS and play DC now if it's just gonna get nerfed if I make the content too easy?
Nerf AA because people build around a single power? That's nuts. What a terrible dev idea. Take a class that is already grossly underplayed in relation to the overall population (see dungeon queues) and nerf it???
Wow. Just wow.
What was the reason that lead you to play and keep playing DC?
If you tried diferent paths, what made them interesting between them?
Was there any time betwwen mod 1-5 that a power was unbalanced like AA? If so what was the opinion of players not after the nerf but some time after it occured?
Considering that you cannot be super powerfull in any kind of expertise other than yours (buffing and healing) but yes fill your correspondent place in a party what would incentivate you to play DC more often? (for example me: Instead paingiver and other charts coeficient of utility, heals + damagage mitigated + damage cooresponding to buffs + damage for a better valorizing of all the classes since paingiver is so valued, tiamat has something like this).
Yes there have been several nerfs, some more impactful than others. To say there was something that was something severly overpowered. Once upon a time you could stack HG. So putting down 2 HG gave you twice the damage buff. Now we didn't have 10 person raids and HEs weren't in every piece of content like they are today, so really your talking about 5 person dungeon runs but if you had multiple DCs you could really stack the HG for big buffs. A similar thing happened with AS where you could stack it and get huge buffs to damage resistance making your party immortal. There have been some other things like broken abilities one-shotting dragons, etc but their wasn't 14 pages of outcry over it. I still like the cleric's mix and flexibility. The divinity is a interesting mechanic (much better than managing pips on SW). The DC can do a lot of things, the only limitation is your pocketbook.
I made my DC around late mod 3/early mod 4, but the reason was to heal and keep the party going forward. I loved to see the green numbers popping and make party damage go up through buffs. Later I started my other main, a SW, but not for the DPS aspect. I aimed for the temptation route to have yet another healer. Healing. . . an aspect of the game that seems to fade..
mSVA is nothing than a silly boss bashing due a broken power, same nonsense like Mr. Bubble, watching the raid hitting the boss and dumping every fkn aoe inside the raid, ignoring every aspect of that fight.
AA is broken since mod 10, it was somehow overpowered even before, since that rework i guess.
When I started a DC AA was not a big deal, the "balls" run out in no time and the mitigation aspect was pretty poor.
The moment the rework is getting live you will see a lot of changes.
Some DC´s will go DO-dps/buffer, some will stay right-AC, some will go into faithfull or virtous/healer...atm we only know one setup. There are enough options to compensate those changes.
A lot of GF´s went dps, since there is no need for a tank atm. They can "lock-in" the boss with Knights Challenge in mSVA due to those crazy balls surrounding them. Same with all striker classes, all that counts is dps/glasscanon.
If those guys recognize, that their class just sucks under the new conditions, they will search for soultions.
You will see much more versatility in other classes, that´s what I hope for at least.
Templocks, devotion Pallys, Tactition GF´s due to better support/mitigation/AP gain etc.
DC always have something extreamly "usefull" to give
AP gain using gifts of haste
DR buff to GF using AS
Geas knock down bosses
Sun burst did iressitable knock back at mode 5, but even before it knock back some bosses (CN)
at Mod5 DC was a beast, rightous was crazy strong, i think the dev don't want to update every week so they create updtae looking forawrd. (same as HR now)
DC was strong ar mod5 but once all other classes got update and L70 is max, DC became weak.
before mode 5, DC was very weak, but all around you were weak as well.
ppl had rank 5 enchants (rank 10 was the max), getting purple item was hard, lesser enchants was very common and we had very little boons (no mount bonus and even artifact were not legendary at start and you could only have one)
so you can imagine how important DC was at that time (i was short on gold for buying potions and injury kits)
most DC before mod 5 did'nt even pick cap boon. there were few feats that work and allmost all chose hybrid path
we did mainly small healing back than and allmost no one used bastion of health, other powers did heal at that time.
players had 20K HP so it was not that hard to heal them
but know its different, there are more classes and you can not make DC mandatory for every run.
GF is support class, i wana see you not dodging his attacks.
DC cast full empower FF, players decide to ignore its exitance. ppl won't bother to dodge
The bosses hit harder and harder. I can not wait to open SP to see how hard the bosses will hit in there.
And how many people will be able to finish it without 100 mass scrolls of life. O
In mod one to 4 we healed. Buffed. Did some damage. Soloed dungeons... ( cough... )
But the amount of HP people had and the amount of damage taken , was not so high.
I was a righteous path back then. I could solo stuff easily.
I knew with a few dodges i could avoid dying. Exept old SP.
But then again you could sunburst enemies of the platform so that worked as well.
Lair Of The Mad Dragon Dungeon... i do not even remember it any more.. It is sad.. I remmeber the last boss. The dragon but heck everything else i really do not.
Old CN was frustrating but it was done by the best... And it took a freaking long time.
Icewindale was third so it was Kesells.
Tyranny forth = Tiamat.
The scaling that had to be done to tiamat went through a few mods if i am not mistaken. LOL
There was even a test Tiamat done by Developers. In order for them to see how hard it was.
40 % to 50 % of the community on Neverwinter are struggling with learning their class.
That includes DCs .
Other % are players who know what they are doing. And are trying to teach people how to play.
AA made it easier.
It also made players lazy.
And just like the Pally bubble it was a shortcut people abused.
Just like Pirate king thingy. People got banned for that.
But let me ask you this. By your standards .
Who are the people that are okay enough to do Tiamat runs, CN, FBI , MSVA or any other content.
People make mistakes. They are not perfect.
I have seen pallies who do not like tanking.
SWs who adore lifesteal more then anything.
GWIFS whos only perp in life is to run in front and hit that boss like there is no tomorrow.
DCs who are top in Paingiver.
I personally have nothing against it. If it suits them who am i to complain.
If a CW wants to be a buffer who am i to say it is not a good idea.
If DC's want to be damage dealers . Good for them.
If they want to do just buffing/ debuffing , hey even better.
I just want to be able to make a difference, to save someone, to be useful to my party and my team.
It is why i play DC in the first place.
Be it healing, buffing or doing damage.
I am willing to sacrifice damage to do buffing / debuffing . Or healing. If it makes a difference.
I am willing to stick to my tank like a bee.
Or if my tank knows what he is doing to run around buffing the damage dealers and their glass builds. While debuffing the bosses.
The ultimate goal should be to finish the dungeon and get the reward. Correct ?
I do remember mod 6. The chaos.
And what bosses did to us.
All the crying on the forums about people not being able to finish the dungeons.
They scaled them, scaled us too. Raising our HP every mod , more and more.
But DCs healing stayed the same. The powers did not raise with the scaling.
Every mod they need to make the dungeons harder.
To scale with us who are leveling our IL and getting stronger. Doing more damage to the mobs and bosses.
But what happens when you can not protect yourself from the damage bosses are doing ?
People will always try to find a way to do things faster and easier.
In mod 6 such a setup was very effective if combined with an OP: the DC could feed the perma bubble of the OP and that became the prevailing way to complete the T2 dungeons, up to the ridiculous point to make the runs trivial. At that time AA had two functions: power share and preveniting the OP "explosion". I can add the funny OP-GF interaction where the OP became a nuke bomb: The OP died, killing whoever is around - please no strange ideas: now it's fixed.
The main point is that, while the DC was always the same, the game changed around us, opening new opportunities and constraints: teams > 5 players, the new queue mechanic, bonding runestones interaction ( @illhora, @lerapiso818) , insigna bonus, artifact interaction ( @jazzfong), deep knowledge of the buff/debuff mechanic (@michela123 , @thefabricant ) more and more ways to stack APs up to the moment where the DCs asked theirselves how to take benefit of all these features and the possible options despite the long standing list of bugs. For example, in the temple forum you find an old discussion where the HG vs AA was deeply analyzed, but also a nice chart from @putzboy78 where different DC builds are compared at high level.
The results of this process are DC builds like the excellent one released by @jeffslider.
All that knowledge gave us the tools to always adapt: this is the good and the bad point at the same time.
The good: the DC is so flexible that we always find our way. The DC class is designed in a way the many DCs love finding interactions with other classes more than focusing on this or that ability.
The bad: all the new features added from mod 6 to mod 11 were not released having the DC in mind. That's why we saw flying DCs, 1kkk power share, perma dailies and so on - now everything is (more or less) fixed. On the other hand, heals are not needed anymore, making the virtuous and the faithfull paths less requested. That's why, at the end, some experienced DCs converged on a general framework (AC DC Righteous, but there's also the DO variation) where you can decide to focus more on dps, buff/debuff or AP gain and where AA give you (bugged) mitigation and power share - just read this discussion, it's all about these features. The end result is that I often meet many DCs who don't know what they are doing, but they works (mainly because many features are not strictly linked to the IL).
Where we are today it's the result of a random process where the players found many opportunities that the devs never figured out. Now they are trying to fix/review them, but I think this is not done in the right way because we got a list of patches instead of a new design that meet the current and future contents. So we have to adapt again: I'm quite optimistic, but there is room to do much better.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
I did not mention anything wrong... i think... maybe...
In any case :
Mod 1 to 5 :
We could solo dungeons if righteous path by ourself.
Our healing was useful .
Bosses did not one hit .
People did not have so much HP and bosses did not do so much damage.
Sunburst did amazing stuff in SP.
AA was not really needed.
You could save your party by doing AS + HG.
Or divine armor. That was useful.
Etc..
I ran several MSVAs and FBIs (along with a CN, and IG) with @thefabricant. What we (or at least I) discovered was that it wouldn't even matter if DC could do enough DPS to keep up with a DPS class. They DC's have no chance of actually dealing their DPS. They can't hit anything. Not because enemies move, or stuff is hard to hit, but because everything is spawning and dying in the same second. Even divine Daunting Light and Divine Chains couldn't land. It was so crazy that my primary source of damage (Daunting Light [divine or otherwise]) got outdamaged by Fire of the Gods. The ratio is normally 50% of my damage as Daunting Light and 13% as Fire of the Gods to give you an idea of how much I missed. I had to miss at least 75% of the Daunting Lights I would normally land in a casual 3k dungeon run. I even had trouble simply gaining divinity in these dungeon runs.
I mentioned that in the previous posts that to have any chance, fights have to last longer than 5 seconds. They don't, gg. Even in the most optimal situation (where a DC can land all their abilities), they will only be able to contribute to every other fight due to their lack of divinity between fights.
I think that DC should probably have a way to regenerate divinity outside of combat, or they seem somewhat useless for trash clearing, even in a buff/debuff situation. It would be nice if Sacred Flames were changed to something similar to pally Cure Wounds for regenerating divinity out of combat. It would be even nicer if DC simply regenerated Divinity Slowly while out of combat.
Looking at DC powers in this situation, most of them are absolutely useless. I don't think I could cast Prophecy of Doom on anything not named "Jarl Storvald, simply because everything dies too fast. It seems like the AP/Cooldown function was meant for applying to trash/adds, but you cannot even finish the cast animation before trash dies. I believe it should be changed to the same casting functionality of SW/GF tab mechanic. Otherwise it's almost useless. Not only that, but the divinity mode is a joke. It deals double damage to targets already marked with PoD. Yeah, but it's base damage is so low that it would be more worthwhile to just channel Punishing Light for the same duration as the excessive cast time
Now since DC can't deal any damage in premade groups, can we look at all of the useless powers for solo content.
All of the DC DoT powers do very little damage in even the 3k dungeons I run. Not because stuff dies too quickly, but because they simply deal deal little damage. In the runs with @thefabricant, I don't think any of the DoTs ticked more than a single time before the target died. with a base damage of around 9k (dealing this damage over the entire duration), I wouldn't be surprised if they dealt below 1% of my damage (they normally sit around 4%. It may not matter too much in a dungeon how much damage a cleric is dealing (that isn't what they are there for), but having basic powers with damage that low makes soloing daily/weekly content a nightmare. I don't think the 30% increase is enough for the Damage over Time powers (Break the Spirit, Sunburst, and Forgemaster's Flame). These powers are so far behind Daunting Light that a cleric loses DPS simply by casting them in solo content, even after considering the buff they give when empowered.
Searing Light has a similar issue to the DoTs, but for a different reason. It has some utility attached, which is supposed to balance out the fact that it does less damage than Daunting Light or Chains of Blazing Light. However the utility is useless. Armor Pen on the empowered version is either useless, or not enough to matter when you look at the base damage in comparison with Daunting Light. The heals and AoE damage from this power aren't even high enough to compete with daunting light and Repurpose Soul. It needs a higher base damage, even if it costs the "utility" of the armor pen increase and heals (if it actually has either of those things).
Overall I like the damage increases now, since obviously DC isn't even going to get near a top DPS class, but could we look at some of the weaker powers and balance out the damage on them, so that all of the powers are at least marginally useful for solo content? I don't want to see Daunting Light outdamaged by all the other abilities, but I don't want to lose solo clear speed by simply casting anything other than Daunting Light and at-wills.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
This is what the living fire feat states:
When you are below 30% HP you deal 5/10/15/20/25% extra damage as Fire damage.
This is what it actually does:
When you are below 30% HP you deal 5/10/15/20/25% extra damage as Piercing damage.
@dreadnaught#5263
This damage cannot be deflected or resisted. It can be blocked by GF shield, or shields like Astral Shield, but it does absolutely absurd damage to anyone it hits.
Sorry I don't know how hard the TR was trying, and obviously it wasn't a fair fight in the first place, since he started with such low HP, but either way a 2.6k DPS DC in blue guild pvp gear and only 2k armor pen probably shouldn't be able to do this to a 4k TR
http://plays.tv/video/58bafc4422186dc767/fun-moments-unfair-duel-with-a-4k-tr-
It's extremely difficult to use this feat in pvp and not die, but if successful it is devastating. This may not be a bug, but the wording of the feat seems wrong then. It would be nice if it simply was a % damage buff (like Avatar) after these changes. That way it could improve Fire of the Gods.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John