I rolled up my DC a few days after live launch because my guild (of 5 people) didn't have one. Over time I fell in love with the class and am still playing her today (quit the game from late mod 4 till late mod 9)
In the early live period before mod 1, DC was falling out of favor as a healer due to people stacking lifesteal and stacking CWs - especially with the HV stacking bug. Low end parties still wanted healing but eventually the class rebranded itself as debuffers and found a spot in parties. For awhile BIS armor was a 2/2 mix of t2 gear. All of the set bonuses were considered poor up until the debuffing aspect took over and the t1 HP set took BIS slot. Build really didn't matter because of the bugs. Power and crit for healing when it mattered but since neither BtS or the HP set was affected by stats, there wasn't much to min maxing. Also, armor pen didn't work with most of our powers before mod 3 IIRC. I was faithful and had the capstone for the extra Pip of divinity btw.
What made DC fun for me was that I had to pay attention to what the party was doing and adjust to what was needed. Sometimes that healing but mostly buffing here and debuffing there. The best moments were usually when you managed to turn looming disaster into victory. I still get annoyed over the mod 5 change (in preview when I left) to Sunburst (always with the awful knockback) and the loss of AS and FF as healing spells. FF was great since it could go from an attack power to a strong heal in a moment's notice.
As far as the upcoming changes, I think they are good. AA was an OK skill when it debuted in Mod2 but the game has changed and it got out of hand. The SoMI bug made it stupidly broken. Power sharing wouldn't be such a big issue if not for the multipicative effect of high level bonding stones but that is an evil the devs may never fix.
30% damage buff should help with solo content, but as has been pointed out, much of our damge comes from slowly building stacks/debuffing and others more quickly reap the benefits of our debuffs than we do.
I hope that DO becomes viable again, but until these changes are available for testing, nothing we write really counts for anything.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
This damage cannot be deflected or resisted. It can be blocked by GF shield, or shields like Astral Shield, but it does absolutely absurd damage to anyone it hits.
Sorry I don't know how hard the TR was trying, and obviously it wasn't a fair fight in the first place, since he started with such low HP, but either way a 2.6k DPS DC in blue guild pvp gear and only 2k armor pen probably shouldn't be able to do this to a 4k TR http://plays.tv/video/58bafc4422186dc767/fun-moments-unfair-duel-with-a-4k-tr-
It's extremely difficult to use this feat in pvp and not die, but if successful it is devastating. This may not be a bug, but the wording of the feat seems wrong then. It would be nice if it simply was a % damage buff (like Avatar) after these changes. That way it could improve Fire of the Gods.
Guess i saw the feat once in PVP killing a maxed GWF in short time, happens not very often. About dps and DC there are too many reasons why it doesn´t work, at first the inability to deal good focus damage. I doubt that @thefabricant buff-groups are the best way for a dps benchmark, but they might show the lack of powers to perform as a true dps. All in all I do not think the actual rework should focus on a way to build a dps DC, too many other thing to go for.
This damage cannot be deflected or resisted. It can be blocked by GF shield, or shields like Astral Shield, but it does absolutely absurd damage to anyone it hits.
Sorry I don't know how hard the TR was trying, and obviously it wasn't a fair fight in the first place, since he started with such low HP, but either way a 2.6k DPS DC in blue guild pvp gear and only 2k armor pen probably shouldn't be able to do this to a 4k TR http://plays.tv/video/58bafc4422186dc767/fun-moments-unfair-duel-with-a-4k-tr-
It's extremely difficult to use this feat in pvp and not die, but if successful it is devastating. This may not be a bug, but the wording of the feat seems wrong then. It would be nice if it simply was a % damage buff (like Avatar) after these changes. That way it could improve Fire of the Gods.
Guess i saw the feat once in PVP killing a maxed GWF in short time, happens not very often. About dps and DC there are too many reasons why it doesn´t work, at first the inability to deal good focus damage. I doubt that @thefabricant buff-groups are the best way for a dps benchmark, but they might show the lack of powers to perform as a true dps. All in all I do not think the actual rework should focus on a way to build a dps DC, too many other thing to go for.
Sorry I wasn't saying it was. I went off on a different path at the end. Some powers are specifically built to do damage. Some seem specifically made for solo content (Searing Light)... yet Daunting Light is the only power you should be casting in solo content, since it outdamages (and therefore completes quests faster) every other action you can take (other than using at-wills to regenerate daunting light). This seems like a very poor design decision for clerics in solo content.
This damage cannot be deflected or resisted. It can be blocked by GF shield, or shields like Astral Shield, but it does absolutely absurd damage to anyone it hits.
Sorry I don't know how hard the TR was trying, and obviously it wasn't a fair fight in the first place, since he started with such low HP, but either way a 2.6k DPS DC in blue guild pvp gear and only 2k armor pen probably shouldn't be able to do this to a 4k TR http://plays.tv/video/58bafc4422186dc767/fun-moments-unfair-duel-with-a-4k-tr-
It's extremely difficult to use this feat in pvp and not die, but if successful it is devastating. This may not be a bug, but the wording of the feat seems wrong then. It would be nice if it simply was a % damage buff (like Avatar) after these changes. That way it could improve Fire of the Gods.
Guess i saw the feat once in PVP killing a maxed GWF in short time, happens not very often. About dps and DC there are too many reasons why it doesn´t work, at first the inability to deal good focus damage. I doubt that @thefabricant buff-groups are the best way for a dps benchmark, but they might show the lack of powers to perform as a true dps. All in all I do not think the actual rework should focus on a way to build a dps DC, too many other thing to go for.
Sorry I wasn't saying it was. I went off on a different path at the end. Some powers are specifically built to do damage. Some seem specifically made for solo content (Searing Light)... yet Daunting Light is the only power you should be casting in solo content, since it outdamages (and therefore completes quests faster) every other action you can take (other than using at-wills to regenerate daunting light). This seems like a very poor design decision for clerics in solo content.
First of all, don´t measure everything following those fastruns. I joined them too and it feels like doing a race being stuck in the first course. If you go through all those powers a DC has, you will recognize that nearly everyone has functions according to the role a DC fullfills - leader/controller. Daunting Light is the only one without a control or healing effect or a massiv buff, that´s maybe the reason why it hits that hard. Giving some of those spells a lot more dps (devine mode or not), the DC class might overperform, it does allready in terms of buffs/debuffs, not easy to balance. I allready kill stuff solo with the same speed a striker does, even I am specced into buff/debuff. I really do not want the next class to outperform a striker like GF can do, too much discussions. Building divinity feels clumsy to me sometimes, but you got that classfeature and two feats to build up devinity pretty fast, maybe the wrong tree for a dps setup.
First of all, don´t measure everything following those fastruns. I joined them too and it feels like doing a race being stuck in the first course. If you go through all those powers a DC has, you will recognize that nearly everyone has functions according to the role a DC fullfills - leader/controller. Daunting Light is the only one without a control or healing effect or a massiv buff, that´s maybe the reason why it hits that hard. Giving some of those spells a lot more dps (devine mode or not), the DC class might overperform, it does allready in terms of buffs/debuffs, not easy to balance. I allready kill stuff solo with the same speed a striker does, even I am specced into buff/debuff. I really do not want the next class to outperform a striker like GF can do, too much discussions.
I am not saying that Break the Spirit should have Daunting Light levels of damage. I am saying to look at the powers that don't bring the utility, such as Searing Light. In normal mode the power is about 1/3 the strength of Daunting Light, and does absolutely nothing more than what Daunting Light does. It just has a different shape AoE.
Looking at Searing Light in divinity mode we add in some super wonky multiproc mechanics with the added bonus of a heal. This heal however is outclasses simply by having the Repurpose Soul feat, and hitting the same targets with Daunting Light. Yeah it requires a feat sure, but it's a normal feat, since all the other feats are basically worthless.
Now finally looking at empowered mode it grants armor pen. That would be nice for a full support spec who doesn't know what they are doing, and ends up running around with no armor pen. As a matter of fact, this power is so weak that in most situations Daunting Light will outdamage it, even with low armor pen.
So, why is the damage on this power so low? It's powers like this that I think should have a look at. It's not that I want DCs to do DPS levels of damage (okay, no that's a lie, I totally want that, but that's not what I am saying here), it's that I want powers like this to be usable in solo content or group content in some fashion, and be useful. I don't care if they gain utility, damage, fireworks, they just need some reason to cast them. If no paragon path, feat path, or build has any use for a power because all other powers do its job better, why isn't it getting reworked or buffed?
Building divinity feels clumsy to me sometimes, but you got that classfeature and two feats to build up devinity pretty fast, maybe the wrong tree for a dps setup.
I love the mechanic, I just wish we didn't need a target. Similar to an HR able to swing melee strikes at the air to reduce ranged cooldowns, I would like to see a power like Sacred Flame changed to a skill shot and be able to just regenerate divinity at any time rather than only against a target.
Even if it were changed to a heal on an allied target it would be nice. It would be REALLY nice if we could channel all at-wills without a target (similar to casting Paladin Cure Wounds on yourself) while walking (like Punishing Light) to regenerate divinity.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
Reading through all the coments, probably some damage tune down would make healers more appreciated, but not just that only:
-Things that are obviously overpowered should be fixed (experient players know those 3 abusive things).
-Stop launching multi class equipment and filter the one launched to fit the classes not like now allowing x class to break in the field of y class.
-Provide better tooltips and explanations.
-Provide better ease of use of some items (this mostly guild overloads that target only 1 specific type of monster and cost 1,5gold to remove).
-Set the entry level to SVA and FBI to non potions and if someone changes equipemnt inside and goes lower than the queue requisite start a countdown kick of that player (private queue not included), some people will do whatever it takes to do that 1k more damage many times hurting their team and blaming the healer/tank.
-Stop making time challenges, prophecy of madness, throne, nSVA that involve need for builds rather than expertise, rather do some like illusionist gambit, if a player dies will have to go through a serie of obstacles to get back in fight, valorizing builds that can mantain them inside alive.
EF resist is a joke. My CW has 32% or something like that, roughly twice her DR and if something in FBI so much as looks at her funny, I either dodge or I'm eating dirt. Unless the devs rework mob damage, one shots are just part of the game and healing is off the table.
Frankly, healers have been the exception rather than the rule in NW, apart from early beta and from what I gather, c. mod 6. Clutch healing is part of what the class does but the more dynamic and changing gameplay are what makes the game fun - not being a healbot.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
@darthtzarr FYI that TR is a PUG he is 4K ITL and even goes PvP a lot so GG . But still he is an easy kill for a TR . I do ok in PvP for righteous but i would never think about using living fire as there are better places to spend points and 90% of the time a cleric with only 30% HP will soon be a dead cleric unless you heal back up.
Never said it was good. I am still running the same feats on this toon that I had when I leveled to 70 . I would never pick it again (maybe after the changes), but it definitely seems like a bug for it to be piercing damage, which is what I was saying. To be able to nuke him like that without any armor pen was just kinda demonstrating what piercing damage does in pvp. I VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY rarely actually get any damage off of that feat. It is normally sits there on my damage ratios screaming "I'm still here moron, remember when you put points in me? Cuz I give you a massive 0% damage increase. But at least I got that one proc for 150 damage on that spider back there. Just making sure you remembered me." ... so... yeah.
I had a DC alt like forever, been around since back when Dread ring was new, but have been maining a TR most of the time, and doing poorly more often than not because I didn´t do research on the forums, relying on the ingame tooltips instead xD. My first impression of the DC class was that its a pain to play in single player, because all the powers that do acceptable damage have that slow and fiddly two step activation and targeting mechanic: flame strike, chains, divine glow, daunting light... Only started to play her more because thats the class that were missing most often when forming guild runs, also I´m generally good at dodgeing and staying alive in PvE, so its sort of natural to take one of the classes thats not allowed to die, since the other guy we had, who had a DC alt, wasn´t and I wanted thouse runs to be succsessful. Thats my ambition as a DC player, not just "to heal" like it seems to be for most of the ppl here, which I find sort of strange, but "to make runs work". Yesterday evening I ran MSVA with a low dps group(low is relative of course...mostly ppl below 4k IL, who didn´t know each other yet) the monsters lasted long enough for both them and the players to "play their hand". Despite 2 AC DCs and 2 good tanks, we only completed it on the third try, still I greatly enjoyed it. Honestly I believe its not the defensive compontent of the anoited army currently on live that trivializes the game(its a limited number of hits, and a very limited area of effect after all), its the extreme damage output of a group that brings all the tools the game gives the players optimally together, resulting in the enemies dieing, or reatreating when a hp threshold is hit, too fast for them to "play their hand".
Also, everyone here seems to be writing off the players who fail to play MSVAs mechanics(esp. the attack that plants ice dot aoe on the floor and needs to be moved away from the group) as lazy and or stupid, but theres another expalnation too: they´re playing half blind. Geforce experiance, the game graphic optimisation tool of one of the biggest graphic card companies, sets world and caracter details to 200% in the "advanced" options of neverwinter(despite the tooltip saying values above 100% are generally not useful xD). This leads to even very good pcs no longer being able to handle the games graphics when toon hopping fast, or being in BHEs with lots of players, or raids with more than 6 players still in action, leading to players not seeing red circles(instead the whole floor turns red) or other importent markers, or mixing them up with another(the one mentioned above with hypothermia). And changing the settings in the "graphics" part of neverwinters options, even down to bare bones, can mitigate it to some extent, but not fix, so it looks like a bug that needs to be fixed by the devs to the player. In the MSVA run mentioned above, strangely the succsessful try was after I´ve explained how to fix this...of course noone admitted they were playing with that problem b4 lol.
Also, everyone here seems to be writing off the players who fail to play MSVAs mechanics(esp. the attack that plants ice dot aoe on the floor and needs to be moved away from the group) as lazy and or stupid, but theres another expalnation too: they´re playing half blind. Geforce experiance, the game graphic optimisation tool of one of the biggest graphic card companies, sets world and caracter details to 200% in the "advanced" options of neverwinter(despite the tooltip saying values above 100% are generally not useful xD). This leads to even very good pcs no longer being able to handle the games graphics when toon hopping fast, or being in BHEs with lots of players, or raids with more than 6 players still in action, leading to players not seeing red circles(instead the whole floor turns red) or other importent markers, or mixing them up with another(the one mentioned above with hypothermia). And changing the settings in the "graphics" part of neverwinters options, even down to bare bones, can mitigate it to some extent, but not fix, so it looks like a bug that needs to be fixed by the devs to the player. In the MSVA run mentioned above, strangely the succsessful try was after I´ve explained how to fix this...of course noone admitted they were playing with that problem b4 lol.
I don´t think a bug causes this to the raid. No , it is 100% the idea of being 1. invulnerable and 2. not wanting to interrupt their rotation and 3. "Noone knows it´s me " 4. poor skills and at last point 5. their graphic is put to high and they can´t see anything due to all thos glimering effects And I tell you 200% that you can see 100% of GWF standing in place (randomruns) ignoring that aoe because they are 1. more tanky and 2. can stand it easily by popping Unstoppable. This works in a group with 2 DC´s who spam AA in short time and maybe run the optimal setup. If you fail 2 times some player rethink the need of "raid-discipline", that´s what you describe. Running in my guild this HAMSTER doesn´t happen at all, everyone tries to avoid aoe and that´s the prove that it´s caused most time by poor attitude and skill to some degree
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
EF resist is a joke. My CW has 32% or something like that, roughly twice her DR and if something in FBI so much as looks at her funny, I either dodge or I'm eating dirt. Unless the devs rework mob damage, one shots are just part of the game and healing is off the table.
Frankly, healers have been the exception rather than the rule in NW, apart from early beta and from what I gather, c. mod 6. Clutch healing is part of what the class does but the more dynamic and changing gameplay are what makes the game fun - not being a healbot.
Was your tank a GF? If so was he carying Knights valor? If it was a paladin was he using smite + circle of power + aura of thruth + aura pf protection + SoF/DP? Was your healer carrying giant/dragon overloads? Where you carrying them or dragon potions/scrolls? If your healer was a paladin was he using aura of thruth + bane + banishment +SoF or DC the thosands of protective powers he has? The point is i dont go fight in a war with a pan (tough it would be funny xD).
Okay, just wanted to update everyone on what happened with the DPS DC thing I had been arguing, since I know everyone was deeply curious (yeah... not). I decided to not make a new thread, since I think I can stay on topic this time.
I ran several MSVAs and FBIs (along with a CN, and IG) with @thefabricant. What we (or at least I) discovered was that it wouldn't even matter if DC could do enough DPS to keep up with a DPS class. They DC's have no chance of actually dealing their DPS. They can't hit anything. Not because enemies move, or stuff is hard to hit, but because everything is spawning and dying in the same second. Even divine Daunting Light and Divine Chains couldn't land. It was so crazy that my primary source of damage (Daunting Light [divine or otherwise]) got outdamaged by Fire of the Gods. The ratio is normally 50% of my damage as Daunting Light and 13% as Fire of the Gods to give you an idea of how much I missed. I had to miss at least 75% of the Daunting Lights I would normally land in a casual 3k dungeon run. I even had trouble simply gaining divinity in these dungeon runs.
I mentioned that in the previous posts that to have any chance, fights have to last longer than 5 seconds. They don't, gg. Even in the most optimal situation (where a DC can land all their abilities), they will only be able to contribute to every other fight due to their lack of divinity between fights.
I think that DC should probably have a way to regenerate divinity outside of combat, or they seem somewhat useless for trash clearing, even in a buff/debuff situation. It would be nice if Sacred Flames were changed to something similar to pally Cure Wounds for regenerating divinity out of combat. It would be even nicer if DC simply regenerated Divinity Slowly while out of combat.
Looking at DC powers in this situation, most of them are absolutely useless. I don't think I could cast Prophecy of Doom on anything not named "Jarl Storvald, simply because everything dies too fast. It seems like the AP/Cooldown function was meant for applying to trash/adds, but you cannot even finish the cast animation before trash dies. I believe it should be changed to the same casting functionality of SW/GF tab mechanic. Otherwise it's almost useless. Not only that, but the divinity mode is a joke. It deals double damage to targets already marked with PoD. Yeah, but it's base damage is so low that it would be more worthwhile to just channel Punishing Light for the same duration as the excessive cast time
Now since DC can't deal any damage in premade groups, can we look at all of the useless powers for solo content.
All of the DC DoT powers do very little damage in even the 3k dungeons I run. Not because stuff dies too quickly, but because they simply deal deal little damage. In the runs with @thefabricant, I don't think any of the DoTs ticked more than a single time before the target died. with a base damage of around 9k (dealing this damage over the entire duration), I wouldn't be surprised if they dealt below 1% of my damage (they normally sit around 4%. It may not matter too much in a dungeon how much damage a cleric is dealing (that isn't what they are there for), but having basic powers with damage that low makes soloing daily/weekly content a nightmare. I don't think the 30% increase is enough for the Damage over Time powers (Break the Spirit, Sunburst, and Forgemaster's Flame). These powers are so far behind Daunting Light that a cleric loses DPS simply by casting them in solo content, even after considering the buff they give when empowered.
Searing Light has a similar issue to the DoTs, but for a different reason. It has some utility attached, which is supposed to balance out the fact that it does less damage than Daunting Light or Chains of Blazing Light. However the utility is useless. Armor Pen on the empowered version is either useless, or not enough to matter when you look at the base damage in comparison with Daunting Light. The heals and AoE damage from this power aren't even high enough to compete with daunting light and Repurpose Soul. It needs a higher base damage, even if it costs the "utility" of the armor pen increase and heals (if it actually has either of those things).
Overall I like the damage increases now, since obviously DC isn't even going to get near a top DPS class, but could we look at some of the weaker powers and balance out the damage on them, so that all of the powers are at least marginally useful for solo content? I don't want to see Daunting Light outdamaged by all the other abilities, but I don't want to lose solo clear speed by simply casting anything other than Daunting Light and at-wills.
Now you believe me? All the things I wrote on Page 11 and 12 you now see yourself. As a cleric you can't compete in Damage. I often be Number 1 or 2 in Paingiver but only because the group is very weak ! In a normal run with 1 big DPS - no chance to come close to the DPS. The Cleric is much too slow to do damage and it miss unresistable Damage.
Now think about you run with 2 thefabricant's through castle never - in the end you deal 15 mio damage and its over
This damage cannot be deflected or resisted. It can be blocked by GF shield, or shields like Astral Shield, but it does absolutely absurd damage to anyone it hits.
Sorry I don't know how hard the TR was trying, and obviously it wasn't a fair fight in the first place, since he started with such low HP, but either way a 2.6k DPS DC in blue guild pvp gear and only 2k armor pen probably shouldn't be able to do this to a 4k TR http://plays.tv/video/58bafc4422186dc767/fun-moments-unfair-duel-with-a-4k-tr-
It's extremely difficult to use this feat in pvp and not die, but if successful it is devastating. This may not be a bug, but the wording of the feat seems wrong then. It would be nice if it simply was a % damage buff (like Avatar) after these changes. That way it could improve Fire of the Gods.
If you want to do damage as a cleric you need Piercing Damage. I can solo Orcus on my cleric but it needs very long to kill him - I sometimes do if the group failes if not. Would be nice to have Piercing damage in Brand of the sun for example
But if THIS happens then you will get closer to the real DPS guys.
Okay, just wanted to update everyone on what happened with the DPS DC thing I had been arguing, since I know everyone was deeply curious (yeah... not). I decided to not make a new thread, since I think I can stay on topic this time.
I ran several MSVAs and FBIs (along with a CN, and IG) with @thefabricant. What we (or at least I) discovered was that it wouldn't even matter if DC could do enough DPS to keep up with a DPS class. They DC's have no chance of actually dealing their DPS. They can't hit anything. Not because enemies move, or stuff is hard to hit, but because everything is spawning and dying in the same second. Even divine Daunting Light and Divine Chains couldn't land. It was so crazy that my primary source of damage (Daunting Light [divine or otherwise]) got outdamaged by Fire of the Gods. The ratio is normally 50% of my damage as Daunting Light and 13% as Fire of the Gods to give you an idea of how much I missed. I had to miss at least 75% of the Daunting Lights I would normally land in a casual 3k dungeon run. I even had trouble simply gaining divinity in these dungeon runs.
I mentioned that in the previous posts that to have any chance, fights have to last longer than 5 seconds. They don't, gg. Even in the most optimal situation (where a DC can land all their abilities), they will only be able to contribute to every other fight due to their lack of divinity between fights.
I think that DC should probably have a way to regenerate divinity outside of combat, or they seem somewhat useless for trash clearing, even in a buff/debuff situation. It would be nice if Sacred Flames were changed to something similar to pally Cure Wounds for regenerating divinity out of combat. It would be even nicer if DC simply regenerated Divinity Slowly while out of combat.
Looking at DC powers in this situation, most of them are absolutely useless. I don't think I could cast Prophecy of Doom on anything not named "Jarl Storvald, simply because everything dies too fast. It seems like the AP/Cooldown function was meant for applying to trash/adds, but you cannot even finish the cast animation before trash dies. I believe it should be changed to the same casting functionality of SW/GF tab mechanic. Otherwise it's almost useless. Not only that, but the divinity mode is a joke. It deals double damage to targets already marked with PoD. Yeah, but it's base damage is so low that it would be more worthwhile to just channel Punishing Light for the same duration as the excessive cast time
Now since DC can't deal any damage in premade groups, can we look at all of the useless powers for solo content.
All of the DC DoT powers do very little damage in even the 3k dungeons I run. Not because stuff dies too quickly, but because they simply deal deal little damage. In the runs with @thefabricant, I don't think any of the DoTs ticked more than a single time before the target died. with a base damage of around 9k (dealing this damage over the entire duration), I wouldn't be surprised if they dealt below 1% of my damage (they normally sit around 4%. It may not matter too much in a dungeon how much damage a cleric is dealing (that isn't what they are there for), but having basic powers with damage that low makes soloing daily/weekly content a nightmare. I don't think the 30% increase is enough for the Damage over Time powers (Break the Spirit, Sunburst, and Forgemaster's Flame). These powers are so far behind Daunting Light that a cleric loses DPS simply by casting them in solo content, even after considering the buff they give when empowered.
Searing Light has a similar issue to the DoTs, but for a different reason. It has some utility attached, which is supposed to balance out the fact that it does less damage than Daunting Light or Chains of Blazing Light. However the utility is useless. Armor Pen on the empowered version is either useless, or not enough to matter when you look at the base damage in comparison with Daunting Light. The heals and AoE damage from this power aren't even high enough to compete with daunting light and Repurpose Soul. It needs a higher base damage, even if it costs the "utility" of the armor pen increase and heals (if it actually has either of those things).
Overall I like the damage increases now, since obviously DC isn't even going to get near a top DPS class, but could we look at some of the weaker powers and balance out the damage on them, so that all of the powers are at least marginally useful for solo content? I don't want to see Daunting Light outdamaged by all the other abilities, but I don't want to lose solo clear speed by simply casting anything other than Daunting Light and at-wills.
my Post is gone? all the things I told you in Page 11 and 12 you see it's true. A DC NEVER can compete with real DPS. Only if he gets piercing Damage there is a chance to deal real Damage. If a DC get 30 % more damage it only helps for pug runs where the group is very weak to be a little faster
Was your tank a GF? If so was he carying Knights valor? If it was a paladin was he using smite + circle of power + aura of thruth + aura pf protection + SoF/DP? Was your healer carrying giant/dragon overloads? Where you carrying them or dragon potions/scrolls? If your healer was a paladin was he using aura of thruth + bane + banishment +SoF or DC the thosands of protective powers he has? The point is i dont go fight in a war with a pan (tough it would be funny xD).
I've done it multiple times with different tanks but that's irrelevant. We're not talking about tanks we're talking about EF resist and whether or not is an actual, practical requirement. If the tank keeps me alive then the tank is doing their job... not the EF resist. I'm not arguing about whether or not one should have a tank in FBI. All of the skills you list are good and might keep me alive, but the EF resist doesn't.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
Was your tank a GF? If so was he carying Knights valor? If it was a paladin was he using smite + circle of power + aura of thruth + aura pf protection + SoF/DP? Was your healer carrying giant/dragon overloads? Where you carrying them or dragon potions/scrolls? If your healer was a paladin was he using aura of thruth + bane + banishment +SoF or DC the thosands of protective powers he has? The point is i dont go fight in a war with a pan (tough it would be funny xD).
I've done it multiple times with different tanks but that's irrelevant. We're not talking about tanks we're talking about EF resist and whether or not is an actual, practical requirement. If the tank keeps me alive then the tank is doing their job... not the EF resist. I'm not arguing about whether or not one should have a tank in FBI. All of the skills you list are good and might keep me alive, but the EF resist doesn't.
EF damage is a outcoming damage from Giant type, Giant protection overload is a damage debuff to the giant, if you go in a dungeon and you dont know how good is your tank, you should bring these i am not entering enchantments or companions because i see it as a ultimate player choice while overloads are specific situation and there is no reason to cary others as these top every other aspect. Now appart from the EF damage there is regular damage with a max of 80% DR, that 80% can be given by your party or something very close (in case of 2 paladins) if in need leaving most the damage taken as EF, each class has ways to defend agains that damage, mostly dodge, if: Your team as ajusted powers to mitigate damage, you already have 80% DR, the requisite EF to enter the dungeon and you still are getting one shoted, use magic:
The reason many people die is simply because they dont know how to defend themselves or care to try so they gather groups that can overstack buffs/debuffs of any kind and run easly, that is not having experience, that is taking the easy route, CN for example, bring me a Good 2k DC and i will tank it with a 2k paladin (with help of a companion, that is much more important here, overloads, boons and equipment, nothing not related to the underdark). The bigger problem of healers is life steal taking their place.
Okay, just wanted to update everyone on what happened with the DPS DC thing I had been arguing, since I know everyone was deeply curious (yeah... not). I decided to not make a new thread, since I think I can stay on topic this time.
I ran several MSVAs and FBIs (along with a CN, and IG) with @thefabricant. What we (or at least I) discovered was that it wouldn't even matter if DC could do enough DPS to keep up with a DPS class. They DC's have no chance of actually dealing their DPS. They can't hit anything. Not because enemies move, or stuff is hard to hit, but because everything is spawning and dying in the same second. Even divine Daunting Light and Divine Chains couldn't land. It was so crazy that my primary source of damage (Daunting Light [divine or otherwise]) got outdamaged by Fire of the Gods. The ratio is normally 50% of my damage as Daunting Light and 13% as Fire of the Gods to give you an idea of how much I missed. I had to miss at least 75% of the Daunting Lights I would normally land in a casual 3k dungeon run. I even had trouble simply gaining divinity in these dungeon runs.
I mentioned that in the previous posts that to have any chance, fights have to last longer than 5 seconds. They don't, gg. Even in the most optimal situation (where a DC can land all their abilities), they will only be able to contribute to every other fight due to their lack of divinity between fights.
I think that DC should probably have a way to regenerate divinity outside of combat, or they seem somewhat useless for trash clearing, even in a buff/debuff situation. It would be nice if Sacred Flames were changed to something similar to pally Cure Wounds for regenerating divinity out of combat. It would be even nicer if DC simply regenerated Divinity Slowly while out of combat.
Looking at DC powers in this situation, most of them are absolutely useless. I don't think I could cast Prophecy of Doom on anything not named "Jarl Storvald, simply because everything dies too fast. It seems like the AP/Cooldown function was meant for applying to trash/adds, but you cannot even finish the cast animation before trash dies. I believe it should be changed to the same casting functionality of SW/GF tab mechanic. Otherwise it's almost useless. Not only that, but the divinity mode is a joke. It deals double damage to targets already marked with PoD. Yeah, but it's base damage is so low that it would be more worthwhile to just channel Punishing Light for the same duration as the excessive cast time
Now since DC can't deal any damage in premade groups, can we look at all of the useless powers for solo content.
All of the DC DoT powers do very little damage in even the 3k dungeons I run. Not because stuff dies too quickly, but because they simply deal deal little damage. In the runs with @thefabricant, I don't think any of the DoTs ticked more than a single time before the target died. with a base damage of around 9k (dealing this damage over the entire duration), I wouldn't be surprised if they dealt below 1% of my damage (they normally sit around 4%. It may not matter too much in a dungeon how much damage a cleric is dealing (that isn't what they are there for), but having basic powers with damage that low makes soloing daily/weekly content a nightmare. I don't think the 30% increase is enough for the Damage over Time powers (Break the Spirit, Sunburst, and Forgemaster's Flame). These powers are so far behind Daunting Light that a cleric loses DPS simply by casting them in solo content, even after considering the buff they give when empowered.
Searing Light has a similar issue to the DoTs, but for a different reason. It has some utility attached, which is supposed to balance out the fact that it does less damage than Daunting Light or Chains of Blazing Light. However the utility is useless. Armor Pen on the empowered version is either useless, or not enough to matter when you look at the base damage in comparison with Daunting Light. The heals and AoE damage from this power aren't even high enough to compete with daunting light and Repurpose Soul. It needs a higher base damage, even if it costs the "utility" of the armor pen increase and heals (if it actually has either of those things).
Overall I like the damage increases now, since obviously DC isn't even going to get near a top DPS class, but could we look at some of the weaker powers and balance out the damage on them, so that all of the powers are at least marginally useful for solo content? I don't want to see Daunting Light outdamaged by all the other abilities, but I don't want to lose solo clear speed by simply casting anything other than Daunting Light and at-wills.
my Post is gone? all the things I told you in Page 11 and 12 you see it's true. A DC NEVER can compete with real DPS. Only if he gets piercing Damage there is a chance to deal real Damage. If a DC get 30 % more damage it only helps for pug runs where the group is very weak to be a little faster
Nope, both of your posts are still here. It is hard to believe anything you say, when the core of your argument is the lack of piercing damage. If I am not mistaken (and it would be awesome if someone like @thefabricant could comment on this), piercing damage does literally nothing in most pve content. Actually most piercing damage sources that I know of are unaffected by debuffs, meaning that on top of them not having any special effect in pve, they deal less damage than a normal attack would.
Last I checked, piercing damage simply ignores any DR that you failed to penetrate with your armor pen, and ignores deflection. PvE Enemies don't have deflection. Outside of things like soloing the rift phase on Orcus, and wonderful bugs like the Master of the Hunt Skirmish leveling bug, you will always have enough armor pen. So what exactly is your argument about piercing damage?
Now, if for some reason you are correct (which I highly doubt). How are my GWF and Trapper HR proper DPS classes? Neither of them deal piercing damage that I know of... so........ how does that work? Are they not proper DPS classes anymore?
EDIT Also, I had never experienced a full buff group, where I can't even hit enemies with At-wills before they die. Hard to imagine this without experiencing it.
EF damage is an effect that comes from everything in Mod 10 zones and instances, not just giants. Fall damage and even the braziers in Lonelywood deal EF damage. Please stop trying to drag extraneous stuff in. You asserted that people should not be allowed to use potions to queue into FBI and that if they swapped gear, then the game should kick them. If the support are doing their job, no amount of EF resist is needed. If they aren't, no amount will save you. Claiming that the existing EF requirements aren't strict enough is what I disputed.
My CW runs with 29% resist all of the time because that is what my preferred gear comes with. However if I chose to run without the reinforced pants/shirt, swapped out the Ostorian ring and got Ascended rather than Relic weapons, the difference in survivability would be negligible. EVERY other thing you mention is beside the point. I use RoE. I could slot overloads... whatever. That has no bearing on your intial assertion that EF reqirements need to be tightened.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
I really do not want to invest any more efforts into relic gear and Everfrost everfrostresist than needed. All that stuff will be from minor interest in short time and it is a real pain to farm BIS rings with a droprate from about 0.01%, restore relic gear wich needs to be filled with voninblood 2 times a day (silly joke) and having allready random drops like (Deepknights Brigandine, Lifesilk SPinnert etc) that beat my actual relic gear. I prefer to live with some oneshots, instead of farming mod 10/10.5 to get some gear I do not like that much. In case mSVA will be a pain without EFR, i buy that cheap stuff for tradebars...or slot a Psions armor
Okay, just wanted to update everyone on what happened with the DPS DC thing I had been arguing, since I know everyone was deeply curious (yeah... not). I decided to not make a new thread, since I think I can stay on topic this time.
I ran several MSVAs and FBIs (along with a CN, and IG) with @thefabricant. What we (or at least I) discovered was that it wouldn't even matter if DC could do enough DPS to keep up with a DPS class. They DC's have no chance of actually dealing their DPS. They can't hit anything. Not because enemies move, or stuff is hard to hit, but because everything is spawning and dying in the same second. Even divine Daunting Light and Divine Chains couldn't land. It was so crazy that my primary source of damage (Daunting Light [divine or otherwise]) got outdamaged by Fire of the Gods. The ratio is normally 50% of my damage as Daunting Light and 13% as Fire of the Gods to give you an idea of how much I missed. I had to miss at least 75% of the Daunting Lights I would normally land in a casual 3k dungeon run. I even had trouble simply gaining divinity in these dungeon runs.
I mentioned that in the previous posts that to have any chance, fights have to last longer than 5 seconds. They don't, gg. Even in the most optimal situation (where a DC can land all their abilities), they will only be able to contribute to every other fight due to their lack of divinity between fights.
I think that DC should probably have a way to regenerate divinity outside of combat, or they seem somewhat useless for trash clearing, even in a buff/debuff situation. It would be nice if Sacred Flames were changed to something similar to pally Cure Wounds for regenerating divinity out of combat. It would be even nicer if DC simply regenerated Divinity Slowly while out of combat.
Looking at DC powers in this situation, most of them are absolutely useless. I don't think I could cast Prophecy of Doom on anything not named "Jarl Storvald, simply because everything dies too fast. It seems like the AP/Cooldown function was meant for applying to trash/adds, but you cannot even finish the cast animation before trash dies. I believe it should be changed to the same casting functionality of SW/GF tab mechanic. Otherwise it's almost useless. Not only that, but the divinity mode is a joke. It deals double damage to targets already marked with PoD. Yeah, but it's base damage is so low that it would be more worthwhile to just channel Punishing Light for the same duration as the excessive cast time
Now since DC can't deal any damage in premade groups, can we look at all of the useless powers for solo content.
All of the DC DoT powers do very little damage in even the 3k dungeons I run. Not because stuff dies too quickly, but because they simply deal deal little damage. In the runs with @thefabricant, I don't think any of the DoTs ticked more than a single time before the target died. with a base damage of around 9k (dealing this damage over the entire duration), I wouldn't be surprised if they dealt below 1% of my damage (they normally sit around 4%. It may not matter too much in a dungeon how much damage a cleric is dealing (that isn't what they are there for), but having basic powers with damage that low makes soloing daily/weekly content a nightmare. I don't think the 30% increase is enough for the Damage over Time powers (Break the Spirit, Sunburst, and Forgemaster's Flame). These powers are so far behind Daunting Light that a cleric loses DPS simply by casting them in solo content, even after considering the buff they give when empowered.
Searing Light has a similar issue to the DoTs, but for a different reason. It has some utility attached, which is supposed to balance out the fact that it does less damage than Daunting Light or Chains of Blazing Light. However the utility is useless. Armor Pen on the empowered version is either useless, or not enough to matter when you look at the base damage in comparison with Daunting Light. The heals and AoE damage from this power aren't even high enough to compete with daunting light and Repurpose Soul. It needs a higher base damage, even if it costs the "utility" of the armor pen increase and heals (if it actually has either of those things).
Overall I like the damage increases now, since obviously DC isn't even going to get near a top DPS class, but could we look at some of the weaker powers and balance out the damage on them, so that all of the powers are at least marginally useful for solo content? I don't want to see Daunting Light outdamaged by all the other abilities, but I don't want to lose solo clear speed by simply casting anything other than Daunting Light and at-wills.
Yep it's very true that when you group up with real DPS you get to see the DC has no ability no compete with them. As I said previously, my OP deals significantly more damage than your DC (judging by the numbers on the videos) but I still only do 30-40% of a same level GWF in group runs.
That's enough for me as my goal is to maintain threat, not to challenge for paingiver.
A support DC will do less than half of your output and it's no coincidence they nearly always come bottom on the chart. But you know what? That's fine. My 3.2k AC support DC doesn't need to do HDPS in group runs, he needs to make sure everyone else does. He just needs enough to get through his solo dailies/weeklies in a reasonable time and these changes allow that.
I do think that Divinity needs to recharge out of combat in the same way the OP Divine Call does though, this whole business of it staying at zero out of combat is just silly, but I've thought that for the last two years.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Okay, just wanted to update everyone on what happened with the DPS DC thing I had been arguing, since I know everyone was deeply curious (yeah... not). I decided to not make a new thread, since I think I can stay on topic this time.
I ran several MSVAs and FBIs (along with a CN, and IG) with @thefabricant. What we (or at least I) discovered was that it wouldn't even matter if DC could do enough DPS to keep up with a DPS class. They DC's have no chance of actually dealing their DPS. They can't hit anything. Not because enemies move, or stuff is hard to hit, but because everything is spawning and dying in the same second. Even divine Daunting Light and Divine Chains couldn't land. It was so crazy that my primary source of damage (Daunting Light [divine or otherwise]) got outdamaged by Fire of the Gods. The ratio is normally 50% of my damage as Daunting Light and 13% as Fire of the Gods to give you an idea of how much I missed. I had to miss at least 75% of the Daunting Lights I would normally land in a casual 3k dungeon run. I even had trouble simply gaining divinity in these dungeon runs.
I mentioned that in the previous posts that to have any chance, fights have to last longer than 5 seconds. They don't, gg. Even in the most optimal situation (where a DC can land all their abilities), they will only be able to contribute to every other fight due to their lack of divinity between fights.
I think that DC should probably have a way to regenerate divinity outside of combat, or they seem somewhat useless for trash clearing, even in a buff/debuff situation. It would be nice if Sacred Flames were changed to something similar to pally Cure Wounds for regenerating divinity out of combat. It would be even nicer if DC simply regenerated Divinity Slowly while out of combat.
Looking at DC powers in this situation, most of them are absolutely useless. I don't think I could cast Prophecy of Doom on anything not named "Jarl Storvald, simply because everything dies too fast. It seems like the AP/Cooldown function was meant for applying to trash/adds, but you cannot even finish the cast animation before trash dies. I believe it should be changed to the same casting functionality of SW/GF tab mechanic. Otherwise it's almost useless. Not only that, but the divinity mode is a joke. It deals double damage to targets already marked with PoD. Yeah, but it's base damage is so low that it would be more worthwhile to just channel Punishing Light for the same duration as the excessive cast time
Now since DC can't deal any damage in premade groups, can we look at all of the useless powers for solo content.
All of the DC DoT powers do very little damage in even the 3k dungeons I run. Not because stuff dies too quickly, but because they simply deal deal little damage. In the runs with @thefabricant, I don't think any of the DoTs ticked more than a single time before the target died. with a base damage of around 9k (dealing this damage over the entire duration), I wouldn't be surprised if they dealt below 1% of my damage (they normally sit around 4%. It may not matter too much in a dungeon how much damage a cleric is dealing (that isn't what they are there for), but having basic powers with damage that low makes soloing daily/weekly content a nightmare. I don't think the 30% increase is enough for the Damage over Time powers (Break the Spirit, Sunburst, and Forgemaster's Flame). These powers are so far behind Daunting Light that a cleric loses DPS simply by casting them in solo content, even after considering the buff they give when empowered.
Searing Light has a similar issue to the DoTs, but for a different reason. It has some utility attached, which is supposed to balance out the fact that it does less damage than Daunting Light or Chains of Blazing Light. However the utility is useless. Armor Pen on the empowered version is either useless, or not enough to matter when you look at the base damage in comparison with Daunting Light. The heals and AoE damage from this power aren't even high enough to compete with daunting light and Repurpose Soul. It needs a higher base damage, even if it costs the "utility" of the armor pen increase and heals (if it actually has either of those things).
Overall I like the damage increases now, since obviously DC isn't even going to get near a top DPS class, but could we look at some of the weaker powers and balance out the damage on them, so that all of the powers are at least marginally useful for solo content? I don't want to see Daunting Light outdamaged by all the other abilities, but I don't want to lose solo clear speed by simply casting anything other than Daunting Light and at-wills.
I do think that Divinity needs to recharge out of combat in the same way the OP Divine Call does though, this whole business of it staying at zero out of combat is just silly, but I've thought that for the last two years.
Aho! Yeah that would be perfect. No need for custom animations or anything, just have it regen out of combat. This would help DCs so much. Sitting at 0 divinity unable to do anything at the start of some fights, but use 15 nuclear weapons at the same time in the next fight is a pretty wonky mechanics when everyone else gets to regen out of combat.
It is not uncommon (watching ACT miniparse) for me to double the main DPS in one fight, and then do literally nothing in the next fight because I didn't have divinity, then continue doing nothing, since I can't gain my divinity back. I can't even buff the party without divinity guys, no come back, stop running so fast. Grrrrr.
Don't forget that mod 10 boats and the mod 11 Nostura challenge drain all divinity instantly. Not major in the overall scheme of things but it does make me feel punished for playing a DC.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited March 2017
Speaking from having played both classes, Divine Call refills fairly slowly in combat, so it's a resource you do want to manage carefully. It refills rapidly out of combat, which means that mechanisms like the boat are an inconvenience but you can fix yourself up as an OP by waiting. To me, it feels fairly balanced. I also like that you can reset Justice OP cooldowns between fights by hitting Divine Call, and not be gimping yourself.
I'd be ok with DC Divinity continuing to only recharge in combat via active engagement with the mechanics. These feel like they're in a good place already and you've got the tools you need when you're in battle. It's the fact that you can be drained through no fault of your own, because your team is killing things faster than you recharge, or because of the game's idiosyncracies like Khyeking. That's why a gradual out-of-combat recharge would be welcome. Also worth noting is that while good Divinity management practices were always core to skilled DC play, before their original feat rework, it was possible to feat into the ability to recharge Divinity by casting your spells. It was slow, but it was the one thing I was most upset about losing from the old feats. http://orcz.com/Neverwinter:_Ethereal_Boon
My old build was primarily Righteous, which at the time focused even more on buffs and less on personal DPS. http://orcz.com/Category:Neverwinter_Paragon_Righteous_Feats Meta at the time for most players was to go Faithful though because they wanted Moontouched and that 4th pip of Divinity. I learned how to play DC from a guy who was emphatic that if you couldn't manage with 3, 4 wasn't going to save you. Damn, I miss him.
Note that not being able to gain Determination fast enough to use it effectively is a HUGE reason why non-Destroyer GWFs aren't viable, and not being able to trigger Unstoppable reliably is NW's #1 most nagged-about long-term bug. Being made able to Mark and block simultaneously was a major QoL improvement for GFs. Stealth depletion is something TR players have to find their way around, and the bug where Stealth stops recovering is a real killer (reproduce: cast Lurker's Assult, then die). Tab mechanics are so integrated into NW combat and part of what makes it feel good, but when your tab mechanic is easily crippled in some way, it's very punishing.
ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
They don't need to rework divinity. They just need to fix the things that drain it. You should only be out if you finished a fight without getting it back up.
They don't need to rework divinity. They just need to fix the things that drain it. You should only be out if you finished a fight without getting it back up.
Which is every other fight, since you can't use divinity and regenerate it before stuff dies. You must do one or the other.
@dreadnaught#5263 When you get a chance, could you also make Prophecy of Doom explode before applying a second stack of Prophecy of Doom. Because it doesn't explode when being reapplied, it is actually unoptimal to apply it while the old one persists. This amount of micromanagement is made even worse by the two second cast time.
Post edited by darthtzarr on
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0
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
They don't need to rework divinity. They just need to fix the things that drain it. You should only be out if you finished a fight without getting it back up.
That'd be nice, but it's also not the kind of thing that we players can just say "it should be sooooo easy to fix, gawd", because the shortcoming is attached to anything that replaces your combat HUD and we don't know what that looks like under the hood. It technically affects every class with a bar you fill and drain as part of your combat mechanics but disproportionately affects the DC due to having no out-of-combat refill while being expected to go in "full". GWFs are accustomed to beginning combat "empty" and the OP and TR refill passively.
Comments
In the early live period before mod 1, DC was falling out of favor as a healer due to people stacking lifesteal and stacking CWs - especially with the HV stacking bug. Low end parties still wanted healing but eventually the class rebranded itself as debuffers and found a spot in parties. For awhile BIS armor was a 2/2 mix of t2 gear. All of the set bonuses were considered poor up until the debuffing aspect took over and the t1 HP set took BIS slot. Build really didn't matter because of the bugs. Power and crit for healing when it mattered but since neither BtS or the HP set was affected by stats, there wasn't much to min maxing. Also, armor pen didn't work with most of our powers before mod 3 IIRC. I was faithful and had the capstone for the extra Pip of divinity btw.
What made DC fun for me was that I had to pay attention to what the party was doing and adjust to what was needed. Sometimes that healing but mostly buffing here and debuffing there. The best moments were usually when you managed to turn looming disaster into victory. I still get annoyed over the mod 5 change (in preview when I left) to Sunburst (always with the awful knockback) and the loss of AS and FF as healing spells. FF was great since it could go from an attack power to a strong heal in a moment's notice.
As far as the upcoming changes, I think they are good. AA was an OK skill when it debuted in Mod2 but the game has changed and it got out of hand. The SoMI bug made it stupidly broken. Power sharing wouldn't be such a big issue if not for the multipicative effect of high level bonding stones but that is an evil the devs may never fix.
30% damage buff should help with solo content, but as has been pointed out, much of our damge comes from slowly building stacks/debuffing and others more quickly reap the benefits of our debuffs than we do.
I hope that DO becomes viable again, but until these changes are available for testing, nothing we write really counts for anything.
now i have to.
i can't belive we had percing damage all this time
About dps and DC there are too many reasons why it doesn´t work, at first the inability to deal good focus damage. I doubt that @thefabricant buff-groups are the best way for a dps benchmark, but they might show the lack of powers to perform as a true dps.
All in all I do not think the actual rework should focus on a way to build a dps DC, too many other thing to go for.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
If you go through all those powers a DC has, you will recognize that nearly everyone has functions according to the role a DC fullfills - leader/controller.
Daunting Light is the only one without a control or healing effect or a massiv buff, that´s maybe the reason why it hits that hard.
Giving some of those spells a lot more dps (devine mode or not), the DC class might overperform, it does allready in terms of buffs/debuffs, not easy to balance. I allready kill stuff solo with the same speed a striker does, even I am specced into buff/debuff.
I really do not want the next class to outperform a striker like GF can do, too much discussions.
Building divinity feels clumsy to me sometimes, but you got that classfeature and two feats to build up devinity pretty fast, maybe the wrong tree for a dps setup.
Looking at Searing Light in divinity mode we add in some super wonky multiproc mechanics with the added bonus of a heal. This heal however is outclasses simply by having the Repurpose Soul feat, and hitting the same targets with Daunting Light. Yeah it requires a feat sure, but it's a normal feat, since all the other feats are basically worthless.
Now finally looking at empowered mode it grants armor pen. That would be nice for a full support spec who doesn't know what they are doing, and ends up running around with no armor pen. As a matter of fact, this power is so weak that in most situations Daunting Light will outdamage it, even with low armor pen.
So, why is the damage on this power so low? It's powers like this that I think should have a look at. It's not that I want DCs to do DPS levels of damage (okay, no that's a lie, I totally want that, but that's not what I am saying here), it's that I want powers like this to be usable in solo content or group content in some fashion, and be useful. I don't care if they gain utility, damage, fireworks, they just need some reason to cast them. If no paragon path, feat path, or build has any use for a power because all other powers do its job better, why isn't it getting reworked or buffed? I love the mechanic, I just wish we didn't need a target. Similar to an HR able to swing melee strikes at the air to reduce ranged cooldowns, I would like to see a power like Sacred Flame changed to a skill shot and be able to just regenerate divinity at any time rather than only against a target.
Even if it were changed to a heal on an allied target it would be nice. It would be REALLY nice if we could channel all at-wills without a target (similar to casting Paladin Cure Wounds on yourself) while walking (like Punishing Light) to regenerate divinity.
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-Things that are obviously overpowered should be fixed (experient players know those 3 abusive things).
-Stop launching multi class equipment and filter the one launched to fit the classes not like now allowing x class to break in the field of y class.
-Provide better tooltips and explanations.
-Provide better ease of use of some items (this mostly guild overloads that target only 1 specific type of monster and cost 1,5gold to remove).
-Set the entry level to SVA and FBI to non potions and if someone changes equipemnt inside and goes lower than the queue requisite start a countdown kick of that player (private queue not included), some people will do whatever it takes to do that 1k more damage many times hurting their team and blaming the healer/tank.
-Stop making time challenges, prophecy of madness, throne, nSVA that involve need for builds rather than expertise, rather do some like illusionist gambit, if a player dies will have to go through a serie of obstacles to get back in fight, valorizing builds that can mantain them inside alive.
Frankly, healers have been the exception rather than the rule in NW, apart from early beta and from what I gather, c. mod 6. Clutch healing is part of what the class does but the more dynamic and changing gameplay are what makes the game fun - not being a healbot.
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My first impression of the DC class was that its a pain to play in single player, because all the powers that do acceptable damage have that slow and fiddly two step activation and targeting mechanic: flame strike, chains, divine glow, daunting light...
Only started to play her more because thats the class that were missing most often when forming guild runs, also I´m generally good at dodgeing and staying alive in PvE, so its sort of natural to take one of the classes thats not allowed to die, since the other guy we had, who had a DC alt, wasn´t and I wanted thouse runs to be succsessful.
Thats my ambition as a DC player, not just "to heal" like it seems to be for most of the ppl here, which I find sort of strange, but "to make runs work".
Yesterday evening I ran MSVA with a low dps group(low is relative of course...mostly ppl below 4k IL, who didn´t know each other yet) the monsters lasted long enough for both them and the players to "play their hand". Despite 2 AC DCs and 2 good tanks, we only completed it on the third try, still I greatly enjoyed it.
Honestly I believe its not the defensive compontent of the anoited army currently on live that trivializes the game(its a limited number of hits, and a very limited area of effect after all), its the extreme damage output of a group that brings all the tools the game gives the players optimally together, resulting in the enemies dieing, or reatreating when a hp threshold is hit, too fast for them to "play their hand".
Geforce experiance, the game graphic optimisation tool of one of the biggest graphic card companies, sets world and caracter details to 200% in the "advanced" options of neverwinter(despite the tooltip saying values above 100% are generally not useful xD). This leads to even very good pcs no longer being able to handle the games graphics when toon hopping fast, or being in BHEs with lots of players, or raids with more than 6 players still in action, leading to players not seeing red circles(instead the whole floor turns red) or other importent markers, or mixing them up with another(the one mentioned above with hypothermia). And changing the settings in the "graphics" part of neverwinters options, even down to bare bones, can mitigate it to some extent, but not fix, so it looks like a bug that needs to be fixed by the devs to the player.
In the MSVA run mentioned above, strangely the succsessful try was after I´ve explained how to fix this...of course noone admitted they were playing with that problem b4 lol.
And I tell you 200% that you can see 100% of GWF standing in place (randomruns) ignoring that aoe because they are 1. more tanky and 2. can stand it easily by popping Unstoppable.
This works in a group with 2 DC´s who spam AA in short time and maybe run the optimal setup.
If you fail 2 times some player rethink the need of "raid-discipline", that´s what you describe.
Running in my guild this HAMSTER doesn´t happen at all, everyone tries to avoid aoe and that´s the prove that it´s caused most time by poor attitude and skill to some degree
Now you believe me? All the things I wrote on Page 11 and 12 you now see yourself. As a cleric you can't compete in Damage. I often be Number 1 or 2 in Paingiver but only because the group is very weak ! In a normal run with 1 big DPS - no chance to come close to the DPS. The Cleric is much too slow to do damage and it miss unresistable Damage.
Now think about you run with 2 thefabricant's through castle never - in the end you deal 15 mio damage and its over
30 % more damag means nothing !
But if THIS happens then you will get closer to the real DPS guys.
The reason many people die is simply because they dont know how to defend themselves or care to try so they gather groups that can overstack buffs/debuffs of any kind and run easly, that is not having experience, that is taking the easy route, CN for example, bring me a Good 2k DC and i will tank it with a 2k paladin (with help of a companion, that is much more important here, overloads, boons and equipment, nothing not related to the underdark). The bigger problem of healers is life steal taking their place.
Last I checked, piercing damage simply ignores any DR that you failed to penetrate with your armor pen, and ignores deflection. PvE Enemies don't have deflection. Outside of things like soloing the rift phase on Orcus, and wonderful bugs like the Master of the Hunt Skirmish leveling bug, you will always have enough armor pen. So what exactly is your argument about piercing damage?
Now, if for some reason you are correct (which I highly doubt). How are my GWF and Trapper HR proper DPS classes? Neither of them deal piercing damage that I know of... so........ how does that work? Are they not proper DPS classes anymore?
EDIT
Also, I had never experienced a full buff group, where I can't even hit enemies with At-wills before they die. Hard to imagine this without experiencing it.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
My CW runs with 29% resist all of the time because that is what my preferred gear comes with. However if I chose to run without the reinforced pants/shirt, swapped out the Ostorian ring and got Ascended rather than Relic weapons, the difference in survivability would be negligible. EVERY other thing you mention is beside the point. I use RoE. I could slot overloads... whatever. That has no bearing on your intial assertion that EF reqirements need to be tightened.
I prefer to live with some oneshots, instead of farming mod 10/10.5 to get some gear I do not like that much.
In case mSVA will be a pain without EFR, i buy that cheap stuff for tradebars...or slot a Psions armor
That's enough for me as my goal is to maintain threat, not to challenge for paingiver.
A support DC will do less than half of your output and it's no coincidence they nearly always come bottom on the chart. But you know what? That's fine. My 3.2k AC support DC doesn't need to do HDPS in group runs, he needs to make sure everyone else does. He just needs enough to get through his solo dailies/weeklies in a reasonable time and these changes allow that.
I do think that Divinity needs to recharge out of combat in the same way the OP Divine Call does though, this whole business of it staying at zero out of combat is just silly, but I've thought that for the last two years.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
It is not uncommon (watching ACT miniparse) for me to double the main DPS in one fight, and then do literally nothing in the next fight because I didn't have divinity, then continue doing nothing, since I can't gain my divinity back. I can't even buff the party without divinity guys, no come back, stop running so fast. Grrrrr.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
I'd be ok with DC Divinity continuing to only recharge in combat via active engagement with the mechanics. These feel like they're in a good place already and you've got the tools you need when you're in battle. It's the fact that you can be drained through no fault of your own, because your team is killing things faster than you recharge, or because of the game's idiosyncracies like Khyeking. That's why a gradual out-of-combat recharge would be welcome. Also worth noting is that while good Divinity management practices were always core to skilled DC play, before their original feat rework, it was possible to feat into the ability to recharge Divinity by casting your spells. It was slow, but it was the one thing I was most upset about losing from the old feats.
http://orcz.com/Neverwinter:_Ethereal_Boon
My old build was primarily Righteous, which at the time focused even more on buffs and less on personal DPS.
http://orcz.com/Category:Neverwinter_Paragon_Righteous_Feats
Meta at the time for most players was to go Faithful though because they wanted Moontouched and that 4th pip of Divinity. I learned how to play DC from a guy who was emphatic that if you couldn't manage with 3, 4 wasn't going to save you. Damn, I miss him.
Note that not being able to gain Determination fast enough to use it effectively is a HUGE reason why non-Destroyer GWFs aren't viable, and not being able to trigger Unstoppable reliably is NW's #1 most nagged-about long-term bug. Being made able to Mark and block simultaneously was a major QoL improvement for GFs. Stealth depletion is something TR players have to find their way around, and the bug where Stealth stops recovering is a real killer (reproduce: cast Lurker's Assult, then die). Tab mechanics are so integrated into NW combat and part of what makes it feel good, but when your tab mechanic is easily crippled in some way, it's very punishing.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia