As has been pointed out, the more relevant balancing for DCs would really now be around the Righteous vs Faithful vs Virtuous.
Full disclosure: I main AC Virt splash Right because that fits best with my playstyle, so I would stand to gain if they revisited some of the useless feats in that path. I understand many players think that heals are superfluous at end-game and that Righteous is strictly better. Whereas that may be true for high-end parties, heals can be helpful in large group content and mixed parties, and I enjoy "shepherding" even if that means giving up debuff potential. And since I'm geared for sizeable power sharing and +movespeed, I'm helpful in end-game content too.
However, I do think that a lot of the feats should be examined and adjusted for the new damage curves (unbreakable devotion lol?). It would also be nice if virt and faith could be further differentiated, maybe one focusing on shielding / temp HP and the other on outright mitigation.
1
treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
edited March 2017
@jaime4312#3760 i dont have logs (probably i do but they are mixed up with a bunch of other classes logs and diferent build in the same log etc), but please go on and show me a log proving that a combination of healer's lore + foresight would prevent a death better than the time reduction in combat play time provided by TI, go on and prove me that a combination of holy fervor + foresight would give a better balance to survival/DPS through the more often dailies cast, so please stop comparing endgame situations only. I dont doubt in terms of damage AC can be better than DO, not in fast fights because there isn't even time for the DC to react(and no it's not required endgame players for this), but in prolonged fights and definitivly not if a DC DO cant cast 2 daillies in a short period of time, and why should AC be a worse choice for low IL? There are DC's that have 15k power and have an uptime of AA of probably 1/4th of the time (because of the use of hallowed ground) that will turn out much much less than the boost DO can give, and no i dont care if DO has the capabillity to give 20% more damage to the team and im not crying over it but yes over a balance between class features and i also dont like the idea of DO+AC interacting in a dungeon but the same goes for OP+GF, dungeons were made for 1 tank, 1 healer 3 dps (im just talking of 5 players dungeons here, in 10 things change) and the chalenge should not be reduced by inserting an extra suport.
@jaime4312#3760 i dont have logs (probably i do but they are mixed up with a bunch of other classes logs and diferent build in the same log etc), but please go on and show me a log proving that a combination of healer's lore + foresight would prevent a death better than the time reduction in combat play time provided by TI, go on and prove me that a combination of holy fervor + foresight would give a better balance to survival/DPS through the more often dailies cast, so please stop comparing endgame situations only. I dont doubt in terms of damage AC can be better than DO, not in fast fights because there isn't even time for the DC to react(and no it's not required endgame players for this), but in prolonged fights and definitivly not if a DC DO cant cast 2 daillies in a short period of time, and why should AC be a worse choice for low IL? There are DC's that have 15k power and have an uptime of AA of probably 1/4th of the time (because of the use of hallowed ground) that will turn out much much less than the boost DO can give, and no i dont care if DO has the capabillity to give 20% more damage to the team and im not crying over it but yes over a balance between class features and i also dont like the idea of DO+AC interacting in a dungeon but the same goes for OP+GF, dungeons were made for 1 tank, 1 healer 3 dps (im just talking of 5 players dungeons here, in 10 things change) and the chalenge should not be reduced by inserting an extra suport.
@treesclimber I never ever comented on thoose passive powers from you previous posts so I don't see why I should answer these questions. However, as it would be very disrespectful to just disregard them (at least from my cultural point of view) I can tell you this, you can replace the passive powers and situations and boom! There you have it, an issue that's common to all classes I think, and that's that all of them have a few passive powers that are blatantly superior to the rest therefore there's little to no reason to move on from then, examples:
Paladin: Auras of courage and wisdom GF: Assault and enhanced mark/combat superiority MoF renen CW: chilling presence for soloing (defined as nw's best passive power by sharp) then swath of destruction and combustive action for group content HB SW: flames of empowerment and all consuming curse. AC DC: Hastening light and maybe divine fortune/holy fervor.
I think you get my point there so no need to use other classes as exmple. Besides, it's not only nw, but all game usaully have that problem one or way another, like, something being blatantly better than most alternatives
FIFA 17: There's a reason people choose Barcelona over Aston Villa, even English themselves.
First person shooters: Most join the mediocre automatic weapons bandwagon because it takes absolutely no skill unlike burst/semiauto/single shot weapons and because they are overall better as most encounters occur at short range.
Skyrim: Why even bothering being a wizard with infinite magicka and low damage attackswhen you can just be a warrior that can craft weapons that enable you to deal extreme damage with even the weakest of your attacks and also have lulz stamina regen + capped damage mitigation?
Far Cry 2: Is there any weapon other than the Grendel (heavy assault rifle) worth using withut gympsing yourself in pve and pvp?
There will always be powers/items/combinations blatantly better than the other alternatives in nw and in virtually all games so I don't see where you are coming from, maybe that people will expect DO to run TI otherwise they'll kick it out of the group? If so, the same goes to other classes one way or another, using or not using certain powers can get them removed from the group, some times with good reason, take paladins spamming relentless avenger when dps are trying to clear trash as a good example... oh, try running a GF on a GWF party without commander's strike, you'll be kicked out faster than you can blink lol.
New TI is on its own one of the very best things that devs could have done to DO as it now means people can actually have the freedom to run it with without being instakicked from group content and actually helping their team, yes, it is much much better than the other passives but it's also the reason DO is now truly viable and benefitial to a team so, at least in my opnion, it needs to stay the way it is.
Do we all want the classses we play (and others) to have all passive powers being viable? Yes, we do! What generally is devs reaction when they see our posts about that? Not only that, this goes for the feedback of we the community in general on the forums! Feedback from paladins after they were nerfed over and over again? Ignored. All classes having weird bugs? We have to deal with them. Suggestions to improve pvp from Synergy players and others of comparable level (Etelgrin, Pavlos, etc)? I would bet devs haven't even read threads from pvp section yet. Devs attitude with our feedback? This:
DC guys, consider how lucky you are now, 2 paragons being viable in their own way considering the current state of the game. This time an exception happened and justice was made for the poor, long dead DO in pve.
As explained on the thread I wanted you to check out and in which some people (like @thefabricant ) showed the results of their tests, AC's power share > DO's TI. There will be some moments in which TI may be better due to uptime, yes, but it was generally agreed there that AC > DO. The difference is that now DO is viable and sinergises very well with AC.
Why could DO be better at low level than AC? Easy, think of a fresh 70 who, unlike us, doesn't have the luxury of being in a medium/large guild. For simplicity's sake, let's think the poor guy is guildless, wearing elemental evil gear and is pretty much boonless so regardless of what paragon he is, his perfomance wouldn't be that good as all his powers are rank 3 at most, that and also he may have no clue what he's doing. If he's AC, he won't get much from AA (even if somehow randomly specced for righteous and took power share stuff) and his action point gain will be meh so he may not be able to help is team much. Now think of the very same guy but being DO and choosing TI as his first rank 4 power, that's a consistent enough 20% damage boost he would be bringing to the table even if his stats are laughable and he's just starting to learn about pve content. This person could stay DO while getting his boons, gearing up, doing his research then he could respec to AC.
Okay so you said that you're not crying over TI but the balance between class features and I believe you but, as stated before, that problem is common to all class in this game one way or another. Besides, nerfing TI (example, changing it to the way you suggested) would once again make DO far inferior to AC therefore TI needs to stay the way it is. Here I can comment your next point so yes, AC and DO will be a very powerful combination but that's always the cause when you make groups with a lot of buff/debuff potential, power interactions should be left alone at the moment and should only be touched if we finally get a decent reward system (or rather, drop rate) that can justify making us take longer to finish dugeons and skirmishes. If we are going to take a while completing something we better get good loot, correct? I think that having the ability to run with whatever classes we want is fine in pve and shouldn't be changed because of drop rate of things and also, even if it's managed to achieve great group sinergy and faceroll content, let's be honest, we'll get trash out of the coffers like 9/10 times so meh. For example, last 2 months or so I've run fbi like 12- 20 times between my SW and my GF, what did I get the vast majority of the times? TR/GWF weapon transmutes and peridots. Would I like to take longer to finish to FBI to get that laughable loot? No way! Would I like to take significantly longer if the drop rate of good things is increased substantially? Of course I would!
Oh I almost forgot! I usually make examples with end game because is at that point that you can see a class at its full potential and only that way players and devs and know whether certain items/powers/etc need to be nerfed/buffed/fixed.
Bottomline is:
- There is serious imbalance regarding class features and DC is not the only one to suffer from it, all the others do as well one way or another. - Buff/debuff interactions need to stay the way they are until devs finally give rngeesus some real love, current one is outright insulting. - TI and AA changes made DO truly viable in pve and brought that paragon back to life, no more AC bandwagon even though it can still be the better choice. DO needs to be left alone, the nerf crusade for TI should stop.
0
treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
edited March 2017
@jaime4312#3760 i had a long HAMSTER answer for about the ad source and how it's connected to all of these DC changes and all other topics you mentioned but you most certanly know all of that already (botters, tradders, speedruns, overpowering). You are right, there is no point fighting for something you can't change.
"the power will be left at 100% absorption for damage amounts at 20% of the target’s maximum hit points or below, now that the amount absorbed has been capped."
but i'm not sure what that means. Does this mean that AA is immune to attacks that deals less damage than 20% of your HP? What about attacks that deals more than 20%?
"the power will be left at 100% absorption for damage amounts at 20% of the target’s maximum hit points or below, now that the amount absorbed has been capped."
but i'm not sure what that means. Does this mean that AA is immune to attacks that deals less damage than 20% of your HP? What about attacks that deals more than 20%?
Each hit removes 1 pip and has it's post-mitigation damage reduced by 20% of target's max hit point.
So if the hit is less than 20% of target's max hit points, they take 0. If it's more, they take any amount of damage over 20% of their max hit points. One hit for 120% of target's hit points (or less if not at full health) can kill the target despite the AA shield.
One hit can't remove more than one pip or be reduced by more than 20% of the target's hit points. Rapid small hits can remove all four pips really quickly.
guardian fo faith: heal is very nice and it got huge range. i find it usefull if i am the only DC in big HE / edemo. but for everything else it is not effective. the heal boost is nice but at the end it heal like BoH. so i dont see a reason casting a daily if BoH do the same it miss simething in the mechanics, maybe: reduce DR of the targer by 2-8% for 10 sec mark the traget with something like astral seal for 20 sec mark the target and prevent it from achieving combat advantage for 10 sec
Divine armor: the only probelm i see with this daily is that the temp HP last only 2 sec. consider its a daily and it take 2 clicks to cast it --> it is useless casting time is not long, but its still 2 clicks + aim. why do you limit temp HP for 2 sec? it will be consume anyway, there is no reason to put time limit on it
Hammer of faith: damags is nice but something is missing in the mechanics. in PVE most of our damage is DoT and by the time i finish to cast it, the target is usually dead and i do no get the 15% AP back. in PVP it its so slow that all dodge it, and by the time i finish casting it i am covered with smoke bombs and AOE attacks maybe: make it one hit and not 3 reduce the delay between the casts make it grant CC imunity for addtional 2 sec after the cast finish
Prophetic action: its ok in theory, but hard to manage. it will be nice if it will give temp HP rather then shield from attack that is not visible. will be more usefull in PVP and PVE
I will Tell you this ever since the change As a paladin >> I still like having AC Cleric over DO Cleric Because in pubs people will mess up and having that mitigation along with my mitigation could save people's lives
If I am with my Guildies or in Alliance and on Teamspeak I prefer DO Cleric but party members have to be on their A+ Gameplay to prevent potential wipes
another thing since most DC are rightous Paladin & DC complement each other very well since Paladin with their daily Shield of Faith can make the DC heal the party for 30% more and I can pretty much spam it easily no problem and the DC will have good healing along with his debuffing feats
Terrifying Insight is definitely doing more damage at cost of surviving
what i would like to know from DO DC though ----------------------------------------- Why they don't use Prophetic Action with TI
Potential Good Use of Prophetic Action: ----------------------------------- In mSVA content for example to save party members from that AOE swing of Storvald
To me on paper looks similar to fox shift on HR, and since tank is gonna always get the aggro from Storvald and every one on opposite side the only time party is to take damage is on Storvald AOE encounters
i mean given we got bondings 10%-15% damage resistance from foresight is not gonna save party
in addition a question to Theorycrafters is foresight flat damage resistance buff to the character or let us say 15% bonus of the character's current damage resistance since it is not visible on character sheet
because pretty much who ever made the coding for mobs damage pretty much makes you either get one shot for light armored classes or on the brink of death and getting that immunity for that deadly mistake could potentially save parties from wipes in boss fights i am not advocating using it at Mobs clearing .. infact foresight would be better in my opinion to clear up dungeons
I hope that can give some info from tank prespective to PVE content
Comments
Full disclosure: I main AC Virt splash Right because that fits best with my playstyle, so I would stand to gain if they revisited some of the useless feats in that path. I understand many players think that heals are superfluous at end-game and that Righteous is strictly better. Whereas that may be true for high-end parties, heals can be helpful in large group content and mixed parties, and I enjoy "shepherding" even if that means giving up debuff potential. And since I'm geared for sizeable power sharing and +movespeed, I'm helpful in end-game content too.
However, I do think that a lot of the feats should be examined and adjusted for the new damage curves (unbreakable devotion lol?). It would also be nice if virt and faith could be further differentiated, maybe one focusing on shielding / temp HP and the other on outright mitigation.
I dont doubt in terms of damage AC can be better than DO, not in fast fights because there isn't even time for the DC to react(and no it's not required endgame players for this), but in prolonged fights and definitivly not if a DC DO cant cast 2 daillies in a short period of time, and why should AC be a worse choice for low IL? There are DC's that have 15k power and have an uptime of AA of probably 1/4th of the time (because of the use of hallowed ground) that will turn out much much less than the boost DO can give, and no i dont care if DO has the capabillity to give 20% more damage to the team and im not crying over it but yes over a balance between class features and i also dont like the idea of DO+AC interacting in a dungeon but the same goes for OP+GF, dungeons were made for 1 tank, 1 healer 3 dps (im just talking of 5 players dungeons here, in 10 things change) and the chalenge should not be reduced by inserting an extra suport.
Paladin: Auras of courage and wisdom
GF: Assault and enhanced mark/combat superiority
MoF renen CW: chilling presence for soloing (defined as nw's best passive power by sharp) then swath of destruction and combustive action for group content
HB SW: flames of empowerment and all consuming curse.
AC DC: Hastening light and maybe divine fortune/holy fervor.
I think you get my point there so no need to use other classes as exmple. Besides, it's not only nw, but all game usaully have that problem one or way another, like, something being blatantly better than most alternatives
FIFA 17: There's a reason people choose Barcelona over Aston Villa, even English themselves.
First person shooters: Most join the mediocre automatic weapons bandwagon because it takes absolutely no skill unlike burst/semiauto/single shot weapons and because they are overall better as most encounters occur at short range.
Skyrim: Why even bothering being a wizard with infinite magicka and low damage attackswhen you can just be a warrior that can craft weapons that enable you to deal extreme damage with even the weakest of your attacks and also have lulz stamina regen + capped damage mitigation?
Far Cry 2: Is there any weapon other than the Grendel (heavy assault rifle) worth using withut gympsing yourself in pve and pvp?
There will always be powers/items/combinations blatantly better than the other alternatives in nw and in virtually all games so I don't see where you are coming from, maybe that people will expect DO to run TI otherwise they'll kick it out of the group? If so, the same goes to other classes one way or another, using or not using certain powers can get them removed from the group, some times with good reason, take paladins spamming relentless avenger when dps are trying to clear trash as a good example... oh, try running a GF on a GWF party without commander's strike, you'll be kicked out faster than you can blink lol.
New TI is on its own one of the very best things that devs could have done to DO as it now means people can actually have the freedom to run it with without being instakicked from group content and actually helping their team, yes, it is much much better than the other passives but it's also the reason DO is now truly viable and benefitial to a team so, at least in my opnion, it needs to stay the way it is.
Do we all want the classses we play (and others) to have all passive powers being viable? Yes, we do! What generally is devs reaction when they see our posts about that? Not only that, this goes for the feedback of we the community in general on the forums! Feedback from paladins after they were nerfed over and over again? Ignored. All classes having weird bugs? We have to deal with them. Suggestions to improve pvp from Synergy players and others of comparable level (Etelgrin, Pavlos, etc)? I would bet devs haven't even read threads from pvp section yet. Devs attitude with our feedback? This:
DC guys, consider how lucky you are now, 2 paragons being viable in their own way considering the current state of the game. This time an exception happened and justice was made for the poor, long dead DO in pve.
As explained on the thread I wanted you to check out and in which some people (like @thefabricant ) showed the results of their tests, AC's power share > DO's TI. There will be some moments in which TI may be better due to uptime, yes, but it was generally agreed there that AC > DO. The difference is that now DO is viable and sinergises very well with AC.
Why could DO be better at low level than AC? Easy, think of a fresh 70 who, unlike us, doesn't have the luxury of being in a medium/large guild. For simplicity's sake, let's think the poor guy is guildless, wearing elemental evil gear and is pretty much boonless so regardless of what paragon he is, his perfomance wouldn't be that good as all his powers are rank 3 at most, that and also he may have no clue what he's doing. If he's AC, he won't get much from AA (even if somehow randomly specced for righteous and took power share stuff) and his action point gain will be meh so he may not be able to help is team much. Now think of the very same guy but being DO and choosing TI as his first rank 4 power, that's a consistent enough 20% damage boost he would be bringing to the table even if his stats are laughable and he's just starting to learn about pve content. This person could stay DO while getting his boons, gearing up, doing his research then he could respec to AC.
Okay so you said that you're not crying over TI but the balance between class features and I believe you but, as stated before, that problem is common to all class in this game one way or another. Besides, nerfing TI (example, changing it to the way you suggested) would once again make DO far inferior to AC therefore TI needs to stay the way it is. Here I can comment your next point so yes, AC and DO will be a very powerful combination but that's always the cause when you make groups with a lot of buff/debuff potential, power interactions should be left alone at the moment and should only be touched if we finally get a decent reward system (or rather, drop rate) that can justify making us take longer to finish dugeons and skirmishes. If we are going to take a while completing something we better get good loot, correct? I think that having the ability to run with whatever classes we want is fine in pve and shouldn't be changed because of drop rate of things and also, even if it's managed to achieve great group sinergy and faceroll content, let's be honest, we'll get trash out of the coffers like 9/10 times so meh. For example, last 2 months or so I've run fbi like 12- 20 times between my SW and my GF, what did I get the vast majority of the times? TR/GWF weapon transmutes and peridots. Would I like to take longer to finish to FBI to get that laughable loot? No way! Would I like to take significantly longer if the drop rate of good things is increased substantially? Of course I would!
Oh I almost forgot! I usually make examples with end game because is at that point that you can see a class at its full potential and only that way players and devs and know whether certain items/powers/etc need to be nerfed/buffed/fixed.
Bottomline is:
- There is serious imbalance regarding class features and DC is not the only one to suffer from it, all the others do as well one way or another.
- Buff/debuff interactions need to stay the way they are until devs finally give rngeesus some real love, current one is outright insulting.
- TI and AA changes made DO truly viable in pve and brought that paragon back to life, no more AC bandwagon even though it can still be the better choice. DO needs to be left alone, the nerf crusade for TI should stop.
Hamster filter manually applied.
"the power will be left at 100% absorption for damage amounts at 20% of the target’s maximum hit points or below, now that the amount absorbed has been capped."
but i'm not sure what that means. Does this mean that AA is immune to attacks that deals less damage than 20% of your HP? What about attacks that deals more than 20%?
So if the hit is less than 20% of target's max hit points, they take 0. If it's more, they take any amount of damage over 20% of their max hit points. One hit for 120% of target's hit points (or less if not at full health) can kill the target despite the AA shield.
One hit can't remove more than one pip or be reduced by more than 20% of the target's hit points. Rapid small hits can remove all four pips really quickly.
guardian fo faith:
heal is very nice and it got huge range. i find it usefull if i am the only DC in big HE / edemo.
but for everything else it is not effective.
the heal boost is nice but at the end it heal like BoH. so i dont see a reason casting a daily if BoH do the same
it miss simething in the mechanics, maybe:
reduce DR of the targer by 2-8% for 10 sec
mark the traget with something like astral seal for 20 sec
mark the target and prevent it from achieving combat advantage for 10 sec
Divine armor:
the only probelm i see with this daily is that the temp HP last only 2 sec.
consider its a daily and it take 2 clicks to cast it --> it is useless
casting time is not long, but its still 2 clicks + aim.
why do you limit temp HP for 2 sec? it will be consume anyway, there is no reason to put time limit on it
Hammer of faith:
damags is nice but something is missing in the mechanics.
in PVE most of our damage is DoT and by the time i finish to cast it, the target is usually dead and i do no get the 15% AP back.
in PVP it its so slow that all dodge it, and by the time i finish casting it i am covered with smoke bombs and AOE attacks
maybe:
make it one hit and not 3
reduce the delay between the casts
make it grant CC imunity for addtional 2 sec after the cast finish
Prophetic action:
its ok in theory, but hard to manage.
it will be nice if it will give temp HP rather then shield from attack that is not visible.
will be more usefull in PVP and PVE
As a paladin >> I still like having AC Cleric over DO Cleric
Because in pubs people will mess up and having that mitigation along with my mitigation could save people's lives
If I am with my Guildies or in Alliance and on Teamspeak
I prefer DO Cleric but party members have to be on their A+ Gameplay to prevent potential wipes
another thing since most DC are rightous Paladin & DC complement each other very well since Paladin with their daily
Shield of Faith can make the DC heal the party for 30% more and I can pretty much spam it easily no problem and the DC will have good healing along with his debuffing feats
Terrifying Insight is definitely doing more damage at cost of surviving
what i would like to know from DO DC though
-----------------------------------------
Why they don't use Prophetic Action with TI
Potential Good Use of Prophetic Action:
-----------------------------------
In mSVA content for example to save party members from that AOE swing of Storvald
To me on paper looks similar to fox shift on HR, and since tank is gonna always get the aggro from Storvald and every one on opposite side the only time party is to take damage is on Storvald AOE encounters
i mean given we got bondings 10%-15% damage resistance from foresight is not gonna save party
in addition a question to Theorycrafters is foresight flat damage resistance buff to the character or let us say 15% bonus of the character's current damage resistance since it is not visible on character sheet
because pretty much who ever made the coding for mobs damage pretty much makes you either get one shot for light armored classes or on the brink of death and getting that immunity for that deadly mistake could potentially save parties from wipes in boss fights i am not advocating using it at Mobs clearing .. infact foresight would be better in my opinion to clear up dungeons
I hope that can give some info from tank prespective to PVE content