show me the canon where Klingons get carriers. in fact the only ship i remember carrying enough fighters to be considered a carrier in hard canon was the scimitar but then again that thing had everything, i bet it had a ball pit that shinzon would play in when he was upset. As i remember the only factions in hard canon to have fighters were the Federation and the Remuns
Oh, don't misinterpret, I'm against KDF Carriers too (sorry folks), I just don't see the advantage in kicking the KDF when they're already down. there's no honor in that.
Once the KDF are on their feet, have full leveling content, and parity in the number of free (non-Dilithium, non-C-Point) ships, then I'll start wailing on the KDF Carriers.
It wasn't done out of the goodness of their hearts Jex.
I totally accept that the revamp in question wasn't done purely because the KDF needed it. The old one didn't make a good impression, and that needed to be corrected for the incoming crowds, absolutely. Cryptic is a business after all, and this is just good business.
But I just don't believe that was the only reason for it, and I find it hard to believe even you can be so jaded as to make that claim. The Qo'noS revamp is one truly good, truly free thing the KDF has ever gotten since their paltry 8 or so missions from eons ago. It's the one piece of content the KDF has ever gotten that threatens to outshine its Fed counterpart in terms of sheer quality, and even immersion.
What is it about part of the motivation for the revamp being to better the KDF is so hard for you to believe? And if you really think that even this, the one decent gesture they've made the KDF in a very long time, is somehow nothing more than a money-grubbing scheme to drain peoples' wallets, why do you think any amount of protest or complaint is going to change their minds about anything?
Frankly, carriers are too slow and cumbersome for my liking. I'd rather have a Caitian escort ship with a turn-rate as good as the defiant retrofit's. If Caitians are stealthy and nimble, shouldn't their ship designs and ship tactics reflect this? It just seems odd to me that the Caitians would choose a yacht over a speed boat.
I agree with you.
Carriers are what the human race would construct, based on its love for large size and centralisation. And not just that, but naval heritage as well.
Then again in Trek lore I would not expect a fighter carrier proper, it would be more accurately termed a shuttlecarrier or fleet support ship. Outside of such support roles I don't see the purpose of a fighter carrier since capital ship engagements are the norm in Star Trek, and this makes it unique.
If I really wanted fighter spam I'd go play Harpoon. Or Homeworld (the original), with the first half of its singleplayer campaign completely dominated by fighters.
Caitian Carrier.... Cat Carrier, Come on people........
At most htey said it would be similar to the orion flight deck cruisers, Something that only has one hanger, unlikes the Vo'quv and Kar'fi the "true" carriers that get two hangers.
CAT CARRIER......... seriously people, look it up. XD
At most htey said it would be similar to the orion flight deck cruisers, Something that only has one hanger, unlikes the Vo'quv and Kar'fi the "true" carriers that get two hangers.
The idea of giving it broadside mounted weapon slots has also been discussed.
There is no doubt that the Fed leveling experience is superior. No doubt. But once you get to max level, there is just as much KDF content (or lack thereof) as Fed content. Same Kerrat, same PVP, same STFs, same featured episodes, etc. And IMHO the Doff system has better missions and the dilithium grind is slightly less annoying due to better options (half can be made in a Pi Cantis run). So you might want to give you Klink another try.
That maybe true but as a newby that is of not concern for me and I doubt I am the only one. I want to enjoy and have fun playing a game, and running round a city as starter quests is not fun or interesting. They could have mirrored the starter Fed quests with just the KDF instead and it would be an improvement.
To me it is an intersting journey that matters, even though in about 10 days I hit VA, which I found rather flabbergasting, there is still a long journey with the story lines. I have only just started the Cardasian line. What are the story lines in KDF like and when do they kick in?
I still play old games, Homeworld series, Half Life, NWN etc because the story lines are there and you can change it in they way you build your character or fleets. I have tried some of the newer games and they went into the bin in less than a week especially the shoot em ups.
Doing the second episode of the FE I saw people complaining about the running around quests. I simply thought, say hello to the KDF starter.
I noticed in the interview that they are looking at info on when players may stop playing. I wonder if this means they will also be looking at when people give up on KDF side things. I also heard him talk about one offs and fleet actions and something new to do. Personally I think they need to pull their thumbs out of the backsides and make the KDF a full levelling faction first.
Escort versus Raptor at LTC.. The Hull , shields and a 1 point difference in turnrate for the KDF are the only differences between the two. BOff layout is the same with no exceptions for iether the base vessels offered or thier refits.
Escort versus Raptor at Cpt The Hull , shields and a 1 point difference in turnrate fort he Feds are the only differences between the two. BOff layout is the same with the exceptions of the Tactical Escort refit which has a Esnign Engineer, LT tactical, LT Science, LT engineer and a Commander Tactical BOff set-up and the Pach raptor which has the same set-up with the Ensign Engineer switched for a tactical instead.
Escort Versus Raptor at Ra/VA & BG The Hull and shields and a +1 point bonus difference in turnrate of the Tactical Escort retrofit over the Qin raptor is the only difference as they have the exact BOff set-up. The Exception comes in the Advanced Escort has a different BOff set, the Fleet Escoert has a different BOff set and the MVA Escort that has a further different BOff set.
You left out the entire BoP line which the Federation has no answer for.
The whole vessels of the line can be done this way and it'll show that for the most aprt KDF vessels merely mimic the feds except where the Feds have something esxtra thats different from the norm or the KDF clone has an extra ability the feds lack. Thats not being unique, thats being reskinned.
What are you expecting?
They can't reinvent the wheel every-time they make a ship to fit one of the 3 major ship classes (damage dealer, tanker, support), so all we will ever see is differences in things like special consoles, BOFF layouts, minor turnrate or hull differences.
I do not believe that that the Feds, nor the KDF should have complete exclusivity to an entire mechanic like cloaking, carrier pet mechanics, science ship special abilities, etc.
To be blunt, I think it's ridiculous to expect as much in a game that is F2P with an emphasis on C-store purchases. Mechanics that can be ported over from one side to the other means an easy way to resell something you've already put the major part of development work into.
You left out the entire BoP line which the Federation has no answer for.
Actually I stopped posting due to there was no need. As one progresses it becomes evident that the only reall differences lie in very small areas and mainly in retrofit and refit vessels of the line.
If you must know the fed BoP equivalent is the MVA escort in that it can hold and use the standard BoP tactical BOff layout.
What are you expecting?
More thinking on the situation at hand and less reskin jobs and gloss-overs to save time in teh building process. More resources allocated to the factions on an individual basis so creative and unique options can be explored and implemented.
I do not believe that that the Feds, nor the KDF should have complete exclusivity to an entire mechanic like cloaking, carrier pet mechanics, science ship special abilities, etc.
Good, becuase none of those things are exclusive to iether faction though they also do not hit to the core of my desire to see vessels and technology built with the faction its intended for in mind at the time of its creation instead of a reskin of an existing idea created for one side and just being used to fill the other.
I'm still dealing with the simple fact that STO is the only trek based game I've ever played that limited its self to only forward and aft weapon mounts. And I find myself stilll unhappy with the lack of full 360 freedom of movement in space. It's not a limitation of the game engine. The game engine can handle it.. just a small matter of code (or not so small, but we've had flight sims for decades that are far more complex in thier movement mechnaic then STO ) STO simply is not a very good simulator of ship combat in the trek universe. The massive differences in racial ship designs just dont show very well.
Klingon ships are supposed to be all about offense., Federation ships are all about tough,...Not the heaviest hitters but able to take for a short time everything you can throw at them, but as a rule tend to be balanced. Gorn ships are tough and fast but thier big ships dont manuver for beans and tend to be a little under armed.
I have never really liked STO combat engine.. maybe after its spent a few years evolving.. There has certainly been better simulators of star trek ship combat out there. Much as I disliked SFC-III, its better then STO as a purely space combat game. Bridge Commander was certainly better. and had full 360 movement and combat.
We still don't have a simulation of combat at warp.. Most torpedo types are capable of being fired while at warp speed. One of the nasty aspects of trek combat is you do NOT want to be hit by a torpedo while at warp. You have no shields! If the bad guy is overtaking you at warp then you either are going to eat a torp which at warp speed a single hit could kill you.. not the damage.. the other effects.. such as the sudden shock of the ship dropping out of warp due to massive disrution of the warp field bubble.
Warp speed combat is not like normal sublight dogfighting. It's all pursuit combat. One of the little reasons you simply do not run from Borg.. At warp speed they are faster then you..and when it comes to warp speed combat bigger is better. Alpha quadrant Photon and Quantum torps just dont have sufficient yield to stop a pursuing Borg cube. Janeways Voyager on the other hand was able to crack cubes at warp with ease using Trans Phasic warheads... So obviously where those types shine is at ward speed. Sublight, thier just another torpedo with a few special properties.
Torpedo as mass weapons, and just as of yet not properly portrayed in STO. Its only though BOFF powers that we see what they are capable of. Or to put it another way. It's faked.
Nope, definatly still not happy with starship combat in STO. Right now all I can see happening with ship combat in the future in sto is what in board and table top game design is called "Stat Creep" which if not seriously controled can kill a games combat system.
Tactics have to count. Ship design has to count, otherwise there is no skill involved. It just becomes a numbers game. and the side with the biggest numbers wins.
There is no death penalty. There is no run away and live to fight another day.
From a story line viewpoint.. Even the Klingon Empire cannot afford to loose ship in wholesale lots. The Dominion war cost thousands of starships, and 100 of thousands of trained starship crews, and several billion civilian lives. The Federation still has not entirely recovered from the losses in that war 30 years later. And the Federation is fighing as of right now in the game a three front war. A war (currently semi hot) against the Klingons, and the Borg, and now against a returned Dominion fleet. The Dominion fleet maybe 30 years behind in Technology, but there are an awefull lot of them. More then the Federation and the Klingon Empire can afford to spare to fight them.
The Klingon Empire has less resources to draw on inspite of the recent addition of the Gorn and Nausican to the Empire with thier worlds and resources. The Orions bring much needed ship designs and trained personell, but must build from existing resources. They brought no star systems with them in thier defection to the Empire.
I hope at some point that Cryptic realized they do NOT need a dumbed down combat system for space and that a massive revamp can take place. At this time though it simply unrealistic to even hope of it happeneing. The Development team is simply to small to do it while dealing with the current worl load.
Every time they add some new thing to the game they have to sit on the edge of thier chairs waiting for the bug to happen. Waiting to see what synergies develop in the code that has to be fixed. Watching to see what stops working or works differently. This happens with every new thing they add. This happens with every new ship/weapon/character power or trait.. They have 30 people as I suspect a shared QA dept between all of the Cryptic titles (which BTW may be folded into PWE's QA..its simply more efficient and cost effective to do so. Several previously independent functions of Cryptic have been moved to the parent company... process sucks!)
We the players don't want them to add to much, to fast. Its because everything they add slow down things that we really want later.. At some point development of toys for the C-store has got to riegned in.. especially when it comes to core mechanic items such as Starships, and consoles. What I relly want to see in the C-Store myself is stuff of interest to the Roleplayer part of the game. Clothing! Emotes! (read animation packs!) How about some couples dancing packs for the Role players.. How about some ceramonial costumes for the Klingons!
(Bark, Growl, Snap, ok, time to chill... I'm getting so far off topic its embarassing!)
On topic: I'm KDF... I don't care if the Feds get carriers. So what if they do. At this point I don't care any more. The things that made the KDF play in PvP interesting got nerfed before the game had been out 6 months because of whiny Fed players (appologies to the feds that were NOT whining about it, but the buggers that did were in YOUR faction!) Klingon cloaking got nerfed to hell and gone. Once apon a time they were ALL battle cloak as it should be. If you don't like fighting Klingon then DON"T START A WAR WITH THEM IDIOTS! Really whats it take? 20% of the population of the fed faction and the KDF was dominating PvP so badly that feed players stopped showing up. And it wasn't because of the ships.
You cannot nerf players.. which is why faction based PvP in STO today is a joke. If the KDF faction can be fleshed out this year, maybe, just maybe, we can see the beginnings of territorial PvEvP combat and a fed Klingon war metagame. Right now we don't have anything my Kerrat.. the single PvEvP zone, and a bunch of Arena's type PvP missions. Alll theese are really good for is practice. I played SFC-II... and we had WARS! and we were limited to having no more then 3 players per side in a battle due to the technical limitations of the day. I fought a lot of PvP 10 years ago in a Trek setting. Not so much now. There are too many LACK OF LIMITATIONS on what players can do with thier ships. It's wide open.. This makes for great game play.. I guess, but it make for LOUSY STAR TREK.
Ok, I'm done.. back to your regularly sceduled forums....
Actually I stopped posting due to there was no need. As one progresses it becomes evident that the only reall differences lie in very small areas and mainly in retrofit and refit vessels of the line.
If you must know the fed BoP equivalent is the MVA escort in that it can hold and use the standard BoP tactical BOff layout.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but I don't see how the MVAE and BoP are equivalent to each other.
The BoP has all universal BOFF stations as well as 1 less BOFF station, I don't see how that makes it equivalent to the MVAE. This BOFF layout is pretty major difference.
Then there are the rest of the differences, like cloaking & MV assault mode, hull strength, turn rates, etc.
I think we need a better definition of "equivalent" if we're to have a meaningful conversation on this topic, but I'm just not seeing what you're getting at with this train of thought.
Good, becuase none of those things are exclusive to iether faction though they also do not hit to the core of my desire to see vessels and technology built with the faction its intended for in mind at the time of its creation instead of a reskin of an existing idea created for one side and just being used to fill the other.
We will never have anything but reskins & modifcations of the following ship types:
Damage Dealer
Tank
Support
Small Craft
Ultimately, every ship will fit into one of those with "minor" tweaks if you want to consider them as such.
From a lore perspective the KDF, the Federation, the Cardassians, Romulans, etc. were all at a relatively similar technological level with strengths in different areas, they didn't really have anything wildly different like organic-bio ships or similar.
I think all that adds up to is "minor" differences and re-skins as you put it which mostly shows up in the focus of a ship, for example the Odyssey vs. the Bortas.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but I don't see how the MVAE and BoP are equivalent to each other.
The BoP has all universal BOFF stations as well as 1 less BOFF station, I don't see how that makes it equivalent to the MVAE. This BOFF layout is pretty major difference.
Then there are the rest of the differences, like cloaking & MV assault mode, hull strength, turn rates, etc.
I think we need a better definition of "equivalent" if we're to have a meaningful conversation on this topic, but I'm just not seeing what you're getting at with this train of thought.
I think it is less a matter of equivalent and more a matter of counter. The MVA has the most popular BoP BO station layout plus an extra ensign. The BoP turns faster, till the MVA pilot separates in the right portion of the MVA. The BoP has combat cloak and the MVA has three parts plus scorpion fighters, (I know the BoP has them too but BoP pilots don't use scorpions as they would "ping" the BoP's location while the BoP is cloaked), to harass the BoP the moment that the BoP decloaks at gross point blank range for it's alpha strike. That forces the BoP to decloak further out where cannons are not quite as effective.
Edit: Oh and guns. Not only does the MVA enjoy one more weapon slot than a BoP while it is assembled the section the pilot stay with during separation does not lose any weapons while the two independent NPC sections enjoy their own beam arrays. Technically a MVA, separated, has at least one more weapons than a cruiser.
Then it has more hull, more shields, much more crew. Really the MVAM may be a ship you have to pay for but you get a whole lot for your money versus, say, the B'rel-R.
Tactically the MVA is a very effective counter to the BoP and thereby negates a true need for a Federation escort/raider with naught but universal BO stations.
What I relly want to see in the C-Store myself is stuff of interest to the Roleplayer part of the game. Clothing! Emotes! (read animation packs!) How about some couples dancing packs for the Role players.. How about some ceramonial costumes for the Klingons!
We will never have anything but reskins & modifcations of the following ship types:
Damage Dealer
Tank
Support
Small Craft
Ultimately, every ship will fit into one of those with "minor" tweaks if you want to consider them as such.
Well considering that there is only three character classes...
Note also that a lot of the race-specifics are lost in the fact that anyone can fit pretty much any gear into any ship, for the most part. A Federation ships can mount a full suite of plasma cannons if they want. A Klingon ship can mount phasers. Everything else is just cosmetics, really.
SFC & SFB had it more accurate by far. Only the Romulans and Gorn had plasma weapons. Only the Federation used phasers - the Klingons & Romulans used disruptors. And Klingon ships had more powerful forward shiled generators at the cost of weaker rear ones, because "Front Towards Enemy" was their combat motto. Even the firing arcs reflected this as well, with Klingon ships massing their weapons into forward arcs, in contrast to Federation ships that were more balanced to attack & defend from any direction.
Oh, and Romulans actually cloaked. Cloaking wasn't just something they did at random. There was a logic behind it. They cloaked to get in close with their plasma torpedoes, which were curb-stomper weapons that you absolutely did not want to get hit by. As a side note: All the original Romulan ships & tactics seen in Star Trek were inspired by the U-Boat menace of WW2. Which is why submariner tactics and Romulan ship tactics are effectively identical.
But here? The ships are more alike than different, and as you said all fall into neat three little molds that just happen to match the three constricting little character classes. There is fundamentally no difference between ships of different rank, either, other than hit points, turn rate, and the number of slots they have. Again, SFC and SFB handled this better, as different ships had different power types and power output. Ships also had more specific functionality, such as dedicate missile ships and even "commando" ships designed to transport boarding parties onto a target the moment their shields were down for a few seconds. And frankly, ship capture was one of my favorite things about those games (I mean, why else play the Borg if you weren't out to capture, rather than destroy, every enemy ship that you could?).
Carriers are what the human race would construct, based on its love for large size and centralisation. And not just that, but naval heritage as well.
Then again in Trek lore I would not expect a fighter carrier proper, it would be more accurately termed a shuttlecarrier or fleet support ship. Outside of such support roles I don't see the purpose of a fighter carrier since capital ship engagements are the norm in Star Trek, and this makes it unique.
If I really wanted fighter spam I'd go play Harpoon. Or Homeworld (the original), with the first half of its singleplayer campaign completely dominated by fighters.
Just wanted to point something out, but carriers are fleet support ships.
The KDF carriers aren't even really carriers by any sane term of the word. Carriers are meant to be tools of force projection in the real world, and in just about every form of media that adheres to a bit logic regarding them. In Star Trek they're some sort of death-trap for violently insane expendable pilots who are too rabid to know when to back off from the angry ship wanting to laser them to death. One assumes they grow replacement pilots in vats in the ship or something given the sheer number of them they go through.
It's also why it makes sense for the Federation to have carriers. Before it was derailed due to some guy ranting about Akira door sizes and imaginary sensor systems, and how it'd in his eyes make carriers impossible for them to have, I pointed out in the other carrier topic that Peregrines and shuttles may have warp drives, but going off of the logic of the universe, they aren't as strong as the engines of a ship that is literally thousands of times its size.
This is what carriers are at the very least partially for in real life. They can deliver something to a location, and then provide fleet support for the rest of the fleet while basing themselves in a location that the secondary craft can return too for resupply and new orders.
Also, carriers can, in the ST-verse, be multi-purpose. A carrier isn't just a ship that launches stuff that blows stuff up. They have other roles. Especially, logically, in an organization like the Federation.
For one, the Federation specializes in large ship construction for the most part. Having specialist ships that can launch lots of tiny individually self-dependent ships can come in handy for that. If you needed a large number of ships to watch over a small area of space, but not the firepower of a full blown cruiser, you'd either have to call in a fleet given how Starfleet works, or call in a carrier.
Likewise, they'd also be nice for support stuff like salvaging in deep space. Along with large-scale research ops.
Really, there's a ton of stuff they could do with carriers and pets for both sides. They could expand the DOFF system immeasurably, along with crafting, too, for instance. I posted this in that topic, but making it so that Federation players had to craft every one of their ships and then slot it (according to the number of actual bays it has.) would create a new goal for people to aim for.
Likewise, having them be multi-purpose would be interesting. Say, sending a shuttle out to do remote harvesting in an exploration mission, while you go after the main harvesting objectives, for instance. Or having it ferry supplies to the surface in an aid the planet mission (Via a timer and a single deployed ship.) while you harvest.
Also, the KDF is in a poor spot if players have to justify continue playing it because of an exclusive ship type. I'd much rather they made it a universal ship type and expanded on the content the KDF has, to where it's a fully featured, unique experience when compared with the Fed side of things. That being said, having played since before release, I do think the KDF is getting to that point. It's certainly leagues more interesting then it was then.
Either way,from a game design standpoint, a single ship type should not be the defining reason why someone plays a faction. There should be something more there that engages you as a player.
I think it is less a matter of equivalent and more a matter of counter. The MVA has the most popular BoP BO station layout plus an extra ensign. The BoP turns faster, till the MVA pilot separates in the right portion of the MVA. The BoP has combat cloak and the MVA has three parts plus scorpion fighters, (I know the BoP has them too but BoP pilots don't use scorpions as they would "ping" the BoP's location while the BoP is cloaked), to harass the BoP the moment that the BoP decloaks at gross point blank range for it's alpha strike. That forces the BoP to decloak further out where cannons are not quite as effective.
Edit: Oh and guns. Not only does the MVA enjoy one more weapon slot than a BoP while it is assembled the section the pilot stay with during separation does not lose any weapons while the two independent NPC sections enjoy their own beam arrays. Technically a MVA, separated, has at least one more weapons than a cruiser.
Then it has more hull, more shields, much more crew. Really the MVAM may be a ship you have to pay for but you get a whole lot for your money versus, say, the B'rel-R.
Tactically the MVA is a very effective counter to the BoP and thereby negates a true need for a Federation escort/raider with naught but universal BO stations.
That's all well and good, and makes the MVAE a good counter to the BoP.
That's not the line of thought however (which I recognize you didn't bring up, and were clarifying), the discussion is about a nebulous quality of "uniqueness".
While one ship might be a counter for another, that doesn't make them equivalent - nor does it make them equal.
Taking into consideration all of what you said, they are still unique in their respective designs.
That's all well and good, and makes the MVAE a good counter to the BoP.
That's not the line of thought however (which I recognize you didn't bring up, and were clarifying), the discussion is about a nebulous quality of "uniqueness".
While one ship might be a counter for another, that doesn't make them equivalent - nor does it make them equal.
Taking into consideration all of what you said, they are still unique in their respective designs.
After the day I have had I am punch drunk enough to read this with one eye and ruminate to myself, What the hell is he actually scrawling on about? Of course they are unique. They are dramatically different. That they counter each other to a small degree, (sorry man but the MAVM is better than the BoP), shows a degree of balance. Why should I have to point out their uniqueness when their very differences, (which I did list, from the perspective of the MAVM but listed nonetheless), implies it? Hell MAVM + Scorpions = a small carrier who's turn rate makes any carrier flogger green with envy. There is no need for a Fed carrier.
Unless my utter exhaustion has lead to me totally miss interpret the nature and disposition of your post, (see opening sentence), how does all this uniqueness support the Fed cause when it comes to getting a Caitian litter carrier? That is the real question.
After the day I have had I am punch drunk enough to read this with one eye and ruminate to myself, What the hell is he actually scrawling on about? Of course they are unique. They are dramatically different. That they counter each other to a small degree, (sorry man but the MAVM is better than the BoP), shows a degree of balance. Why should I have to point out their uniqueness when their very differences, (which I did list, from the perspective of the MAVM but listed nonetheless), implies it? Hell MAVM + Scorpions = a small carrier who's turn rate makes any carrier flogger green with envy. There is no need for a Fed carrier.
Unless my utter exhaustion has lead to me totally miss interpret the nature and disposition of your post, (see opening sentence), how does all this uniqueness support the Fed cause when it comes to getting a Caitian litter carrier? That is the real question.
If you're going to respond to someone, who is making a post in response to someone that isn't you - you should actually read the posts in question.
So rather than reply to you, you can go back and read the relevant parts of the discussion or simply remain confused.
Actually I stopped posting due to there was no need. As one progresses it becomes evident that the only reall differences lie in very small areas and mainly in retrofit and refit vessels of the line.
If you must know the fed BoP equivalent is the MVA escort in that it can hold and use the standard BoP tactical BOff layout.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but I don't see how the MVAE and BoP are equivalent to each other.
The BoP has all universal BOFF stations as well as 1 less BOFF station, I don't see how that makes it equivalent to the MVAE. This BOFF layout is pretty major difference.
Then there are the rest of the differences, like cloaking & MV assault mode, hull strength, turn rates, etc.
I think we need a better definition of "equivalent" if we're to have a meaningful conversation on this topic, but I'm just not seeing what you're getting at with this train of thought.
We will never have anything but reskins & modifcations of the following ship types:
Damage Dealer
Tank
Support
Small Craft
Ultimately, every ship will fit into one of those with "minor" tweaks if you want to consider them as such.
From a lore perspective the KDF, the Federation, the Cardassians, Romulans, etc. were all at a relatively similar technological level with strengths in different areas, they didn't really have anything wildly different like organic-bio ships or similar.
I think all that adds up to is "minor" differences and re-skins as you put it which mostly shows up in the focus of a ship, for example the Odyssey vs. the Bortas.
I think it is less a matter of equivalent and more a matter of counter. The MVA has the most popular BoP BO station layout plus an extra ensign. The BoP turns faster, till the MVA pilot separates in the right portion of the MVA. The BoP has combat cloak and the MVA has three parts plus scorpion fighters, (I know the BoP has them too but BoP pilots don't use scorpions as they would "ping" the BoP's location while the BoP is cloaked), to harass the BoP the moment that the BoP decloaks at gross point blank range for it's alpha strike. That forces the BoP to decloak further out where cannons are not quite as effective.
Edit: Oh and guns. Not only does the MVA enjoy one more weapon slot than a BoP while it is assembled the section the pilot stay with during separation does not lose any weapons while the two independent NPC sections enjoy their own beam arrays. Technically a MVA, separated, has at least one more weapons than a cruiser.
Then it has more hull, more shields, much more crew. Really the MVAM may be a ship you have to pay for but you get a whole lot for your money versus, say, the B'rel-R.
Tactically the MVA is a very effective counter to the BoP and thereby negates a true need for a Federation escort/raider with naught but universal BO stations.
That's all well and good, and makes the MVAE a good counter to the BoP.
That's not the line of thought however (which I recognize you didn't bring up, and were clarifying), the discussion is about a nebulous quality of "uniqueness".
While one ship might be a counter for another, that doesn't make them equivalent - nor does it make them equal.
Taking into consideration all of what you said, they are still unique in their respective designs.
After the day I have had I am punch drunk enough to read this with one eye and ruminate to myself, What the hell is he actually scrawling on about? Of course they are unique. They are dramatically different. That they counter each other to a small degree, (sorry man but the MAVM is better than the BoP), shows a degree of balance. Why should I have to point out their uniqueness when their very differences, (which I did list, from the perspective of the MAVM but listed nonetheless), implies it? Hell MAVM + Scorpions = a small carrier who's turn rate makes any carrier flogger green with envy. There is no need for a Fed carrier.
Unless my utter exhaustion has lead to me totally miss interpret the nature and disposition of your post, (see opening sentence), how does all this uniqueness support the Fed cause when it comes to getting a Caitian litter carrier? That is the real question.
So now how can you say this when I was in the convo much earlier, you know before I was awake for 29 hours straight?
The Point is the Differences between the factions is small and most true differences already have an ingame equivalent ( or vessel equal to ) the task of said vessels purpose.
In fact the differences keep dwindling everyday. Look at the latest Jem'hadar set, it has anti-cloak capabilites and is drain boat build supportive. Another way to detect cloak and why? IS not the never missing, able to fire blindly and hit cloaked vessel Beam fir at WIll not enough? We needed more Anti-Cloak technology ingame?
Where is teh cloak supportive technology, the counters to being detected by a myriad of sometimes even broken abilities?
I have no issue with the caitain carrier and while I can say this with all honesty, it does irk me that when the feds get something handed to them on a platter - its all well and good and as it should be by thier reckoning. When the KDF seems to get something handed to them its the end of the world and the begining of chaos and disorder and what where the Devs thinking, etc, etc. All up in a heavel ubntil the same is passed to the feds, then suddenly its alright and makes sense. Its BS.
When the KDF seems to get something handed to them its the end of the world and the begining of chaos and disorder and what where the Devs thinking, etc, etc. All up in a heavel ubntil the same is passed to the feds, then suddenly its alright and makes sense. Its BS.
Well what have been arguments against a klingon carrier?
That its not canon. Cryptic ignored it and added klingon carriers anyways. So now they are indeed part of STO canon, and fed having them too is just logical.
Game balance. With carriers as completely new class of ship in STO this was a concern. Now they are already in, and also adding a fed carrier won't imbalance the game more than it's already.
Pet spam. This was again just a concern as long as maches were free of such clutter. Now with klingon carrier pets, scorpion fighters ect. it's already way to late to bring this concern against a fed carrier.
So it comes down to the "but unique ship classes are the only thing we have". This might be right. But the enemies you have to fight for your uniqueness are the bean counters that think you don't deserve unique content, rather than the fellow fed captains who wish to have the same ship choices as you have.
So now how can you say this when I was in the convo much earlier, you know before I was awake for 29 hours straight?
Because Roach's point was about a lack of uniqueness.
If uniqueness requires a ship to be in its own class entirely and not even the smidgen of a similar function to connect them, I think you and Roach are going to be severely disappointed in the long-term.
The broad categories that define ships and ship classes provide a framework, within that framework there will be differences enough to justify ships to exist (otherwise the developers can just stop making ships at this point).
The MVAE and the BoP may be able to fill similar functions, that doesn't make them equals or exactly the same, or reduce their uniqueness.
If you like we can take it to the absurd and say that, all ships are not unique because they all do the same thing - which is fly around space and shoot stuff.
That's obviously ridiculous, but it's the same line of thought.
There is a reason why people debate on these forums over which escort or raptor, or cruiser they should choose for X - there is enough difference between ships even from the same faction and ship class that you will see players deliberate over the details.
A cruiser is a cruiser is a cruiser, fundamentally yes. That's the overarching framework of the cruiser ship category.
It guarantees certain things like a large amount of hull, and 8 weapon slots, 4 device slots and a specific shield modifier rating.
No one is going to say the Dread and the Odyssey are the same ship, they have enough differences between them to make them distinctive and therefore unique.
Much less something like the BoP, which is an entirely different ship class and has advantages and disadvantages compared to the MVAE.
So back to the topic at hand, I see no need for the KDF to totally and completely own the category of Carriers, that doesn't mean any possible Fed carrier will or should be exact copies of how the KDF carriers are designed.
The Point is the Differences between the factions is small and most true differences already have an ingame equivalent ( or vessel equal to ) the task of said vessels purpose.
There is nothing abnormal or bad about this.
There are only so many purposes ships can be built for in an MMO - the same holds true in reality (not that the two are the same, but it's a simple comparison).
Being built for the same or similar purpose is fine, as long as the ships have a different way of getting it done.
In fact the differences keep dwindling everyday. Look at the latest Jem'hadar set, it has anti-cloak capabilites and is drain boat build supportive. Another way to detect cloak and why? IS not the never missing, able to fire blindly and hit cloaked vessel Beam fir at WIll not enough? We needed more Anti-Cloak technology ingame?
Anti-cloak technology =/= cloaking technology.
As for another way to detect cloaks, this isn't fed technology.
I actually wish it was Fed technology.
The Feds are at war with an Empire the heavily utilizes cloaking technology, you would expect at the least that they would have methods of trying to detect cloaked ships.
Fore a lore standpoint it's silly enough the Feds have limited cloaking technology, due to a treaty that by all rights has no sway over the Federation. From a metagame standpoint it maintains the status quo from the TV series, and Roddenberry's vision of heroes who don't go skulking around in the shadows (usually).
As for FAW, I have no idea if that's even WAI - so I can't really comment on it.
I have no issue with the caitain carrier and while I can say this with all honesty, it does irk me that when the feds get something handed to them on a platter - its all well and good and as it should be by thier reckoning. When the KDF seems to get something handed to them its the end of the world and the begining of chaos and disorder and what where the Devs thinking, etc, etc. All up in a heavel ubntil the same is passed to the feds, then suddenly its alright and makes sense. Its BS.
Is this where we go back to sci ships being available for Klingons?
They should be available, Klingons should have the same options for a fuller richer game experience, this is something you even said to me with how the Klingons have multi-race empire - when by all rights they should be monolithic. I even agree with you that those races available makes for a better game and better play experience.
Your reasoning in that other discussion was that players wanted more races for the KDF, they got them. Now Fed players want those fun looking carriers like the KDF have.
Not everyone lives and breathes a state of diehard factionalized PvP, a lot of Fed players who want carriers probably will never go near pvp at all - much less factional pvp.
What they want are more options to enjoy their game, regardless of faction.
What the KDF needs is more content, unique missions - that's not even a question and we will all be better off when that day comes.
Pet spam. This was again just a concern as long as maches were free of such clutter. Now with klingon carrier pets, scorpion fighters ect. it's already way to late to bring this concern against a fed carrier.
It was the major concern for the feds when the Carriers first rolled out and resulted in many nerfs for teh voQ and yet now that the carrier is going fedside, its no longer worth being a concern?
Riiiighhhtttt! See me other post on the BS of fed concerns duality.
So it comes down to the "but unique ship classes are the only thing we have". This might be right. But the enemies you have to fight for your uniqueness are the bean counters that think you don't deserve unique content, rather than the fellow fed captains who wish to have the same ship choices as you have.
Its both. Those bean counters are not counting much in the way of KDF beans while the Feds have enough beans to plant stalks from here to Alpha Centari.
And why should the feds have the same ship choices as the KDF? Becuase they are the feds and wish to have more gameplay?
I've been pushing for more gameplay for the KDF in a PvE aspect and yet its still being rationalized away in interviews and threads, so why should the feds get something they want just becuase they want it?
Becuase they pay the bean counters- thats why.
There is a reason why people debate on these forums over which escort or raptor, or cruiser they should choose for X - there is enough difference between ships even from the same faction and ship class that you will see players deliberate over the details.
We KDF don't debate over which Raptor to use. We have only the one at endgame and its a copy of the Defiant-R with a worse turn mechanic.
The Feds are at war with an Empire the heavily utilizes cloaking technology, you would expect at the least that they would have methods of trying to detect cloaked ships.
Yes, and you ahve it in spades while the KDF has yet to see the technology countered from our side.
We have very little technology for the KDF ,if anything, that impacts or increases our ability to cloak and yet its even ingame?
What the KDF needs is more content, unique missions - that's not even a question and we will all be better off when that day comes.
True, but that day will be less enjoyable when it happens, if it happens, becuase most of whats left to make the KDF different will only be graphical in nature. Until the Red of the UI gets changed to something else becuase it hurts the eyes of those feds players slumming on the KDF side of things.
A fed carrier wouldnt be a bad idea if it's done right. I havent had the liberty of trying the kar'fi yet (not that I'd want something so hideous) but my observations and use of the vo'quv show that it is a science vessel in nature. The Federation has more limited selections of craft for their carrier: only the Peragerine Fighters. A single hangar tactical ship with stricter limits on weapons would be just fine.
I dont know exactly what drives others for asking a Fed carrier be implemented, but I ask only because I have loved the concept of carriers since I first saw a WWII video of them. Carrier tactics and combat have been somthing I adore, and seeing it only available as a PvP tool (I hear the KDF refered to as a PvP faction all the time) just seems like a waste of a true carrier commander's skills. Personally, I love my carrier just because it's a carrier. I think it'd be nice to have a ship interior that didnt make me feel like I was inside a dumpster, but if that never becomes available I'll continue to fly mine as-is.
On that note, I end my post with one suggestion: Customizable UI coloring, as well as the ability to change the computer's voice. The audio cues are nice, but not once did I ever hear in the series that that computer's voice couldnt be changed. They just never did cause it wasn't too important.
KDF players don't have to pay C-Points for a carrier. Federation players will. In a F2P market, that's essential. The carrier is the most-requested feature for Feds, so if they put it in the C-Store, they'll make literally thousands of dollars off of it.
The Vo'Quv Carrier is A TERRIBLE SHIP (which is why it's free). So using that as a launching pad for your crybaby missiles is an awful idea.
also: Carriers are immoral in the eyes of Starfleet. sending people out to die as cannon fodder? you're playing the wrong faction with that attitude.
Well what have been arguments against a klingon carrier?
That its not canon. Cryptic ignored it and added klingon carriers anyways. So now they are indeed part of STO canon, and fed having them too is just logical.
Game balance. With carriers as completely new class of ship in STO this was a concern. Now they are already in, and also adding a fed carrier won't imbalance the game more than it's already.
Pet spam. This was again just a concern as long as maches were free of such clutter. Now with klingon carrier pets, scorpion fighters ect. it's already way to late to bring this concern against a fed carrier.
So it comes down to the "but unique ship classes are the only thing we have". This might be right. But the enemies you have to fight for your uniqueness are the bean counters that think you don't deserve unique content, rather than the fellow fed captains who wish to have the same ship choices as you have.
You all speak of Game Balance. This game has never been balanced and will not be balanced until both factions begin at the same level and new players have the opportunity to choose which faction they want upon creating their first character. Then the game will be balanced.
Comments
Oh, don't misinterpret, I'm against KDF Carriers too (sorry folks), I just don't see the advantage in kicking the KDF when they're already down. there's no honor in that.
Once the KDF are on their feet, have full leveling content, and parity in the number of free (non-Dilithium, non-C-Point) ships, then I'll start wailing on the KDF Carriers.
I totally accept that the revamp in question wasn't done purely because the KDF needed it. The old one didn't make a good impression, and that needed to be corrected for the incoming crowds, absolutely. Cryptic is a business after all, and this is just good business.
But I just don't believe that was the only reason for it, and I find it hard to believe even you can be so jaded as to make that claim. The Qo'noS revamp is one truly good, truly free thing the KDF has ever gotten since their paltry 8 or so missions from eons ago. It's the one piece of content the KDF has ever gotten that threatens to outshine its Fed counterpart in terms of sheer quality, and even immersion.
What is it about part of the motivation for the revamp being to better the KDF is so hard for you to believe? And if you really think that even this, the one decent gesture they've made the KDF in a very long time, is somehow nothing more than a money-grubbing scheme to drain peoples' wallets, why do you think any amount of protest or complaint is going to change their minds about anything?
I agree with you.
Carriers are what the human race would construct, based on its love for large size and centralisation. And not just that, but naval heritage as well.
Then again in Trek lore I would not expect a fighter carrier proper, it would be more accurately termed a shuttlecarrier or fleet support ship. Outside of such support roles I don't see the purpose of a fighter carrier since capital ship engagements are the norm in Star Trek, and this makes it unique.
If I really wanted fighter spam I'd go play Harpoon. Or Homeworld (the original), with the first half of its singleplayer campaign completely dominated by fighters.
At most htey said it would be similar to the orion flight deck cruisers, Something that only has one hanger, unlikes the Vo'quv and Kar'fi the "true" carriers that get two hangers.
CAT CARRIER......... seriously people, look it up. XD
I agree, though it should be a gamewide option. I mean the idea of mounting a gun down the center line of a vessel is hardly new for any race. Arrgh!!
That maybe true but as a newby that is of not concern for me and I doubt I am the only one. I want to enjoy and have fun playing a game, and running round a city as starter quests is not fun or interesting. They could have mirrored the starter Fed quests with just the KDF instead and it would be an improvement.
To me it is an intersting journey that matters, even though in about 10 days I hit VA, which I found rather flabbergasting, there is still a long journey with the story lines. I have only just started the Cardasian line. What are the story lines in KDF like and when do they kick in?
I still play old games, Homeworld series, Half Life, NWN etc because the story lines are there and you can change it in they way you build your character or fleets. I have tried some of the newer games and they went into the bin in less than a week especially the shoot em ups.
Doing the second episode of the FE I saw people complaining about the running around quests. I simply thought, say hello to the KDF starter.
I noticed in the interview that they are looking at info on when players may stop playing. I wonder if this means they will also be looking at when people give up on KDF side things. I also heard him talk about one offs and fleet actions and something new to do. Personally I think they need to pull their thumbs out of the backsides and make the KDF a full levelling faction first.
I agree, and I would very much like to see the faction grow and offer a fuller, richer content experience for the player.
You left out the entire BoP line which the Federation has no answer for.
What are you expecting?
They can't reinvent the wheel every-time they make a ship to fit one of the 3 major ship classes (damage dealer, tanker, support), so all we will ever see is differences in things like special consoles, BOFF layouts, minor turnrate or hull differences.
I do not believe that that the Feds, nor the KDF should have complete exclusivity to an entire mechanic like cloaking, carrier pet mechanics, science ship special abilities, etc.
To be blunt, I think it's ridiculous to expect as much in a game that is F2P with an emphasis on C-store purchases. Mechanics that can be ported over from one side to the other means an easy way to resell something you've already put the major part of development work into.
Klingon ships are supposed to be all about offense., Federation ships are all about tough,...Not the heaviest hitters but able to take for a short time everything you can throw at them, but as a rule tend to be balanced. Gorn ships are tough and fast but thier big ships dont manuver for beans and tend to be a little under armed.
I have never really liked STO combat engine.. maybe after its spent a few years evolving.. There has certainly been better simulators of star trek ship combat out there. Much as I disliked SFC-III, its better then STO as a purely space combat game. Bridge Commander was certainly better. and had full 360 movement and combat.
We still don't have a simulation of combat at warp.. Most torpedo types are capable of being fired while at warp speed. One of the nasty aspects of trek combat is you do NOT want to be hit by a torpedo while at warp. You have no shields! If the bad guy is overtaking you at warp then you either are going to eat a torp which at warp speed a single hit could kill you.. not the damage.. the other effects.. such as the sudden shock of the ship dropping out of warp due to massive disrution of the warp field bubble.
Warp speed combat is not like normal sublight dogfighting. It's all pursuit combat. One of the little reasons you simply do not run from Borg.. At warp speed they are faster then you..and when it comes to warp speed combat bigger is better. Alpha quadrant Photon and Quantum torps just dont have sufficient yield to stop a pursuing Borg cube. Janeways Voyager on the other hand was able to crack cubes at warp with ease using Trans Phasic warheads... So obviously where those types shine is at ward speed. Sublight, thier just another torpedo with a few special properties.
Torpedo as mass weapons, and just as of yet not properly portrayed in STO. Its only though BOFF powers that we see what they are capable of. Or to put it another way. It's faked.
Nope, definatly still not happy with starship combat in STO. Right now all I can see happening with ship combat in the future in sto is what in board and table top game design is called "Stat Creep" which if not seriously controled can kill a games combat system.
Tactics have to count. Ship design has to count, otherwise there is no skill involved. It just becomes a numbers game. and the side with the biggest numbers wins.
There is no death penalty. There is no run away and live to fight another day.
From a story line viewpoint.. Even the Klingon Empire cannot afford to loose ship in wholesale lots. The Dominion war cost thousands of starships, and 100 of thousands of trained starship crews, and several billion civilian lives. The Federation still has not entirely recovered from the losses in that war 30 years later. And the Federation is fighing as of right now in the game a three front war. A war (currently semi hot) against the Klingons, and the Borg, and now against a returned Dominion fleet. The Dominion fleet maybe 30 years behind in Technology, but there are an awefull lot of them. More then the Federation and the Klingon Empire can afford to spare to fight them.
The Klingon Empire has less resources to draw on inspite of the recent addition of the Gorn and Nausican to the Empire with thier worlds and resources. The Orions bring much needed ship designs and trained personell, but must build from existing resources. They brought no star systems with them in thier defection to the Empire.
I hope at some point that Cryptic realized they do NOT need a dumbed down combat system for space and that a massive revamp can take place. At this time though it simply unrealistic to even hope of it happeneing. The Development team is simply to small to do it while dealing with the current worl load.
Every time they add some new thing to the game they have to sit on the edge of thier chairs waiting for the bug to happen. Waiting to see what synergies develop in the code that has to be fixed. Watching to see what stops working or works differently. This happens with every new thing they add. This happens with every new ship/weapon/character power or trait.. They have 30 people as I suspect a shared QA dept between all of the Cryptic titles (which BTW may be folded into PWE's QA..its simply more efficient and cost effective to do so. Several previously independent functions of Cryptic have been moved to the parent company... process sucks!)
We the players don't want them to add to much, to fast. Its because everything they add slow down things that we really want later.. At some point development of toys for the C-store has got to riegned in.. especially when it comes to core mechanic items such as Starships, and consoles. What I relly want to see in the C-Store myself is stuff of interest to the Roleplayer part of the game. Clothing! Emotes! (read animation packs!) How about some couples dancing packs for the Role players.. How about some ceramonial costumes for the Klingons!
(Bark, Growl, Snap, ok, time to chill... I'm getting so far off topic its embarassing!)
On topic: I'm KDF... I don't care if the Feds get carriers. So what if they do. At this point I don't care any more. The things that made the KDF play in PvP interesting got nerfed before the game had been out 6 months because of whiny Fed players (appologies to the feds that were NOT whining about it, but the buggers that did were in YOUR faction!) Klingon cloaking got nerfed to hell and gone. Once apon a time they were ALL battle cloak as it should be. If you don't like fighting Klingon then DON"T START A WAR WITH THEM IDIOTS! Really whats it take? 20% of the population of the fed faction and the KDF was dominating PvP so badly that feed players stopped showing up. And it wasn't because of the ships.
You cannot nerf players.. which is why faction based PvP in STO today is a joke. If the KDF faction can be fleshed out this year, maybe, just maybe, we can see the beginnings of territorial PvEvP combat and a fed Klingon war metagame. Right now we don't have anything my Kerrat.. the single PvEvP zone, and a bunch of Arena's type PvP missions. Alll theese are really good for is practice. I played SFC-II... and we had WARS! and we were limited to having no more then 3 players per side in a battle due to the technical limitations of the day. I fought a lot of PvP 10 years ago in a Trek setting. Not so much now. There are too many LACK OF LIMITATIONS on what players can do with thier ships. It's wide open.. This makes for great game play.. I guess, but it make for LOUSY STAR TREK.
Ok, I'm done.. back to your regularly sceduled forums....
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but I don't see how the MVAE and BoP are equivalent to each other.
The BoP has all universal BOFF stations as well as 1 less BOFF station, I don't see how that makes it equivalent to the MVAE. This BOFF layout is pretty major difference.
Then there are the rest of the differences, like cloaking & MV assault mode, hull strength, turn rates, etc.
I think we need a better definition of "equivalent" if we're to have a meaningful conversation on this topic, but I'm just not seeing what you're getting at with this train of thought.
We will never have anything but reskins & modifcations of the following ship types:
Damage Dealer
Tank
Support
Small Craft
Ultimately, every ship will fit into one of those with "minor" tweaks if you want to consider them as such.
From a lore perspective the KDF, the Federation, the Cardassians, Romulans, etc. were all at a relatively similar technological level with strengths in different areas, they didn't really have anything wildly different like organic-bio ships or similar.
I think all that adds up to is "minor" differences and re-skins as you put it which mostly shows up in the focus of a ship, for example the Odyssey vs. the Bortas.
I think it is less a matter of equivalent and more a matter of counter. The MVA has the most popular BoP BO station layout plus an extra ensign. The BoP turns faster, till the MVA pilot separates in the right portion of the MVA. The BoP has combat cloak and the MVA has three parts plus scorpion fighters, (I know the BoP has them too but BoP pilots don't use scorpions as they would "ping" the BoP's location while the BoP is cloaked), to harass the BoP the moment that the BoP decloaks at gross point blank range for it's alpha strike. That forces the BoP to decloak further out where cannons are not quite as effective.
Edit: Oh and guns. Not only does the MVA enjoy one more weapon slot than a BoP while it is assembled the section the pilot stay with during separation does not lose any weapons while the two independent NPC sections enjoy their own beam arrays. Technically a MVA, separated, has at least one more weapons than a cruiser.
Then it has more hull, more shields, much more crew. Really the MVAM may be a ship you have to pay for but you get a whole lot for your money versus, say, the B'rel-R.
Tactically the MVA is a very effective counter to the BoP and thereby negates a true need for a Federation escort/raider with naught but universal BO stations.
Well considering that there is only three character classes...
Note also that a lot of the race-specifics are lost in the fact that anyone can fit pretty much any gear into any ship, for the most part. A Federation ships can mount a full suite of plasma cannons if they want. A Klingon ship can mount phasers. Everything else is just cosmetics, really.
SFC & SFB had it more accurate by far. Only the Romulans and Gorn had plasma weapons. Only the Federation used phasers - the Klingons & Romulans used disruptors. And Klingon ships had more powerful forward shiled generators at the cost of weaker rear ones, because "Front Towards Enemy" was their combat motto. Even the firing arcs reflected this as well, with Klingon ships massing their weapons into forward arcs, in contrast to Federation ships that were more balanced to attack & defend from any direction.
Oh, and Romulans actually cloaked. Cloaking wasn't just something they did at random. There was a logic behind it. They cloaked to get in close with their plasma torpedoes, which were curb-stomper weapons that you absolutely did not want to get hit by. As a side note: All the original Romulan ships & tactics seen in Star Trek were inspired by the U-Boat menace of WW2. Which is why submariner tactics and Romulan ship tactics are effectively identical.
But here? The ships are more alike than different, and as you said all fall into neat three little molds that just happen to match the three constricting little character classes. There is fundamentally no difference between ships of different rank, either, other than hit points, turn rate, and the number of slots they have. Again, SFC and SFB handled this better, as different ships had different power types and power output. Ships also had more specific functionality, such as dedicate missile ships and even "commando" ships designed to transport boarding parties onto a target the moment their shields were down for a few seconds. And frankly, ship capture was one of my favorite things about those games (I mean, why else play the Borg if you weren't out to capture, rather than destroy, every enemy ship that you could?).
Just wanted to point something out, but carriers are fleet support ships.
The KDF carriers aren't even really carriers by any sane term of the word. Carriers are meant to be tools of force projection in the real world, and in just about every form of media that adheres to a bit logic regarding them. In Star Trek they're some sort of death-trap for violently insane expendable pilots who are too rabid to know when to back off from the angry ship wanting to laser them to death. One assumes they grow replacement pilots in vats in the ship or something given the sheer number of them they go through.
It's also why it makes sense for the Federation to have carriers. Before it was derailed due to some guy ranting about Akira door sizes and imaginary sensor systems, and how it'd in his eyes make carriers impossible for them to have, I pointed out in the other carrier topic that Peregrines and shuttles may have warp drives, but going off of the logic of the universe, they aren't as strong as the engines of a ship that is literally thousands of times its size.
This is what carriers are at the very least partially for in real life. They can deliver something to a location, and then provide fleet support for the rest of the fleet while basing themselves in a location that the secondary craft can return too for resupply and new orders.
Also, carriers can, in the ST-verse, be multi-purpose. A carrier isn't just a ship that launches stuff that blows stuff up. They have other roles. Especially, logically, in an organization like the Federation.
For one, the Federation specializes in large ship construction for the most part. Having specialist ships that can launch lots of tiny individually self-dependent ships can come in handy for that. If you needed a large number of ships to watch over a small area of space, but not the firepower of a full blown cruiser, you'd either have to call in a fleet given how Starfleet works, or call in a carrier.
Likewise, they'd also be nice for support stuff like salvaging in deep space. Along with large-scale research ops.
Really, there's a ton of stuff they could do with carriers and pets for both sides. They could expand the DOFF system immeasurably, along with crafting, too, for instance. I posted this in that topic, but making it so that Federation players had to craft every one of their ships and then slot it (according to the number of actual bays it has.) would create a new goal for people to aim for.
Likewise, having them be multi-purpose would be interesting. Say, sending a shuttle out to do remote harvesting in an exploration mission, while you go after the main harvesting objectives, for instance. Or having it ferry supplies to the surface in an aid the planet mission (Via a timer and a single deployed ship.) while you harvest.
Also, the KDF is in a poor spot if players have to justify continue playing it because of an exclusive ship type. I'd much rather they made it a universal ship type and expanded on the content the KDF has, to where it's a fully featured, unique experience when compared with the Fed side of things. That being said, having played since before release, I do think the KDF is getting to that point. It's certainly leagues more interesting then it was then.
Either way,from a game design standpoint, a single ship type should not be the defining reason why someone plays a faction. There should be something more there that engages you as a player.
That's all well and good, and makes the MVAE a good counter to the BoP.
That's not the line of thought however (which I recognize you didn't bring up, and were clarifying), the discussion is about a nebulous quality of "uniqueness".
While one ship might be a counter for another, that doesn't make them equivalent - nor does it make them equal.
Taking into consideration all of what you said, they are still unique in their respective designs.
After the day I have had I am punch drunk enough to read this with one eye and ruminate to myself, What the hell is he actually scrawling on about? Of course they are unique. They are dramatically different. That they counter each other to a small degree, (sorry man but the MAVM is better than the BoP), shows a degree of balance. Why should I have to point out their uniqueness when their very differences, (which I did list, from the perspective of the MAVM but listed nonetheless), implies it? Hell MAVM + Scorpions = a small carrier who's turn rate makes any carrier flogger green with envy. There is no need for a Fed carrier.
Unless my utter exhaustion has lead to me totally miss interpret the nature and disposition of your post, (see opening sentence), how does all this uniqueness support the Fed cause when it comes to getting a Caitian litter carrier? That is the real question.
If you're going to respond to someone, who is making a post in response to someone that isn't you - you should actually read the posts in question.
So rather than reply to you, you can go back and read the relevant parts of the discussion or simply remain confused.
Isn't it a reference to Wing Commander's Kilrathi?
In fact the differences keep dwindling everyday. Look at the latest Jem'hadar set, it has anti-cloak capabilites and is drain boat build supportive. Another way to detect cloak and why? IS not the never missing, able to fire blindly and hit cloaked vessel Beam fir at WIll not enough? We needed more Anti-Cloak technology ingame?
Where is teh cloak supportive technology, the counters to being detected by a myriad of sometimes even broken abilities?
I have no issue with the caitain carrier and while I can say this with all honesty, it does irk me that when the feds get something handed to them on a platter - its all well and good and as it should be by thier reckoning. When the KDF seems to get something handed to them its the end of the world and the begining of chaos and disorder and what where the Devs thinking, etc, etc. All up in a heavel ubntil the same is passed to the feds, then suddenly its alright and makes sense. Its BS.
That its not canon. Cryptic ignored it and added klingon carriers anyways. So now they are indeed part of STO canon, and fed having them too is just logical.
Game balance. With carriers as completely new class of ship in STO this was a concern. Now they are already in, and also adding a fed carrier won't imbalance the game more than it's already.
Pet spam. This was again just a concern as long as maches were free of such clutter. Now with klingon carrier pets, scorpion fighters ect. it's already way to late to bring this concern against a fed carrier.
So it comes down to the "but unique ship classes are the only thing we have". This might be right. But the enemies you have to fight for your uniqueness are the bean counters that think you don't deserve unique content, rather than the fellow fed captains who wish to have the same ship choices as you have.
Because Roach's point was about a lack of uniqueness.
If uniqueness requires a ship to be in its own class entirely and not even the smidgen of a similar function to connect them, I think you and Roach are going to be severely disappointed in the long-term.
The broad categories that define ships and ship classes provide a framework, within that framework there will be differences enough to justify ships to exist (otherwise the developers can just stop making ships at this point).
The MVAE and the BoP may be able to fill similar functions, that doesn't make them equals or exactly the same, or reduce their uniqueness.
If you like we can take it to the absurd and say that, all ships are not unique because they all do the same thing - which is fly around space and shoot stuff.
That's obviously ridiculous, but it's the same line of thought.
There is a reason why people debate on these forums over which escort or raptor, or cruiser they should choose for X - there is enough difference between ships even from the same faction and ship class that you will see players deliberate over the details.
A cruiser is a cruiser is a cruiser, fundamentally yes. That's the overarching framework of the cruiser ship category.
It guarantees certain things like a large amount of hull, and 8 weapon slots, 4 device slots and a specific shield modifier rating.
No one is going to say the Dread and the Odyssey are the same ship, they have enough differences between them to make them distinctive and therefore unique.
Much less something like the BoP, which is an entirely different ship class and has advantages and disadvantages compared to the MVAE.
So back to the topic at hand, I see no need for the KDF to totally and completely own the category of Carriers, that doesn't mean any possible Fed carrier will or should be exact copies of how the KDF carriers are designed.
There is nothing abnormal or bad about this.
There are only so many purposes ships can be built for in an MMO - the same holds true in reality (not that the two are the same, but it's a simple comparison).
Being built for the same or similar purpose is fine, as long as the ships have a different way of getting it done.
Anti-cloak technology =/= cloaking technology.
As for another way to detect cloaks, this isn't fed technology.
I actually wish it was Fed technology.
The Feds are at war with an Empire the heavily utilizes cloaking technology, you would expect at the least that they would have methods of trying to detect cloaked ships.
Fore a lore standpoint it's silly enough the Feds have limited cloaking technology, due to a treaty that by all rights has no sway over the Federation. From a metagame standpoint it maintains the status quo from the TV series, and Roddenberry's vision of heroes who don't go skulking around in the shadows (usually).
As for FAW, I have no idea if that's even WAI - so I can't really comment on it.
Is this where we go back to sci ships being available for Klingons?
They should be available, Klingons should have the same options for a fuller richer game experience, this is something you even said to me with how the Klingons have multi-race empire - when by all rights they should be monolithic. I even agree with you that those races available makes for a better game and better play experience.
Your reasoning in that other discussion was that players wanted more races for the KDF, they got them. Now Fed players want those fun looking carriers like the KDF have.
Not everyone lives and breathes a state of diehard factionalized PvP, a lot of Fed players who want carriers probably will never go near pvp at all - much less factional pvp.
What they want are more options to enjoy their game, regardless of faction.
What the KDF needs is more content, unique missions - that's not even a question and we will all be better off when that day comes.
Yes, and you ahve it in spades while the KDF has yet to see the technology countered from our side.
We have very little technology for the KDF ,if anything, that impacts or increases our ability to cloak and yet its even ingame?
True, but that day will be less enjoyable when it happens, if it happens, becuase most of whats left to make the KDF different will only be graphical in nature. Until the Red of the UI gets changed to something else becuase it hurts the eyes of those feds players slumming on the KDF side of things.
I dont know exactly what drives others for asking a Fed carrier be implemented, but I ask only because I have loved the concept of carriers since I first saw a WWII video of them. Carrier tactics and combat have been somthing I adore, and seeing it only available as a PvP tool (I hear the KDF refered to as a PvP faction all the time) just seems like a waste of a true carrier commander's skills. Personally, I love my carrier just because it's a carrier. I think it'd be nice to have a ship interior that didnt make me feel like I was inside a dumpster, but if that never becomes available I'll continue to fly mine as-is.
On that note, I end my post with one suggestion: Customizable UI coloring, as well as the ability to change the computer's voice. The audio cues are nice, but not once did I ever hear in the series that that computer's voice couldnt be changed. They just never did cause it wasn't too important.
The Vo'Quv Carrier is A TERRIBLE SHIP (which is why it's free). So using that as a launching pad for your crybaby missiles is an awful idea.
also: Carriers are immoral in the eyes of Starfleet. sending people out to die as cannon fodder? you're playing the wrong faction with that attitude.
You all speak of Game Balance. This game has never been balanced and will not be balanced until both factions begin at the same level and new players have the opportunity to choose which faction they want upon creating their first character. Then the game will be balanced.