I'm pretty sure Whiners was the right word for it. ITS UNIQUE I WANT IT NOW. ITS SO OP I WANT IT NOW. BOOHOOO CRYPTIC PLEASE. I WANT IT NOW. that kind of stuff.
A fed carrier wouldnt be a bad idea if it's done right. I havent had the liberty of trying the kar'fi yet (not that I'd want something so hideous) but my observations and use of the vo'quv show that it is a science vessel in nature. The Federation has more limited selections of craft for their carrier: only the Peragerine Fighters. A single hangar tactical ship with stricter limits on weapons would be just fine.
I dont know exactly what drives others for asking a Fed carrier be implemented, but I ask only because I have loved the concept of carriers since I first saw a WWII video of them. Carrier tactics and combat have been somthing I adore, and seeing it only available as a PvP tool (I hear the KDF refered to as a PvP faction all the time) just seems like a waste of a true carrier commander's skills. Personally, I love my carrier just because it's a carrier. I think it'd be nice to have a ship interior that didnt make me feel like I was inside a dumpster, but if that never becomes available I'll continue to fly mine as-is.
On that note, I end my post with one suggestion: Customizable UI coloring, as well as the ability to change the computer's voice. The audio cues are nice, but not once did I ever hear in the series that that computer's voice couldnt be changed. They just never did cause it wasn't too important.
Yeah because the AI in PvE is so sophisticated that you would really have to come up with novel ways to wring the most out of a carrier... Trust me PvP is the best place to really have your carrier tactics and strategies challenged. Other wise your just clubbing baby seals.
I'm pretty sure Whiners was the right word for it. ITS UNIQUE I WANT IT NOW. ITS SO OP I WANT IT NOW. BOOHOOO CRYPTIC PLEASE. I WANT IT NOW. that kind of stuff.
The Devs have their datamining, they see what the population balance looks like and where the money is coming from.
For the last time. There is no room for a carrier on FED side nor is there room for a T5 connie. Ill stop there before otherwise ill start getting insulting. Im just glad CBS is in place to stop some of the more canon breaking ideas.
For the last time. There is no room for a carrier on FED side nor is there room for a T5 connie. Ill stop there before otherwise ill start getting insulting. Im just glad CBS is in place to stop some of the more canon breaking ideas.
The only thing you can be assured of when it comes to the Feds is no true T5 Connie. I have even started to desensitize myself to the notion of a significant portion 82% of the entire game population flying whitewashed B'rel-Rs. This of course requires me to reenact that scene from A Clockwork Orange by strapping myself into a chair pinning my eyes open and watching endless loops of Star Trek IV The Voyage Home whist I chant, "They will all be Kirk." in a never ending drone, while I endure extreme electro-shock therapy.
There have been only a few side effects from this regimen so far. *picks up mouse and holds it to face* "Computer; Gagh. Make it cold this time." With any luck I will be re-normalized as a proper denizen of the Borg Collec... erm I mean Federation. *eyes take a sudden vapid glaze accompanied by a voice with a robotic drone* "We are the Federation, lower your shields and prepared to be boarded. All your engineering and unique ships will be re-purposed for our perceived I-win button. At least till we find out that it is not an I-win button."
Till then this is Pi "Factionally Confused" Wright saying...
CHANGE?! Ya got any CHANGE?! Common help a guy out here...
Out of curiosity...why is it not cannon for feds to have carriers?
If it's cause they are a peace keeping force, that would also mean escorts shouldn't of really been made cannon either.
Out of curiosity...why is it not cannon for feds to have carriers?
If it's cause they are a peace keeping force, that would also mean escorts shouldn't of really been made cannon either.
Out of curiosity...why is it not cannon for feds to have carriers?
If it's cause they are a peace keeping force, that would also mean escorts shouldn't of really been made cannon either.
Explaining this and the history of it is going to make for a long post. Especially to cover the usual counter arguments against it, which is the main method many detractors for it take. So fair warning:
The short of it is that many people keep playing the "canon lawyer" or "MY IMMERSION" cards as the main reason for it.
Any time someone points out that there were fighters in the TV show, people claim we never saw a carrier on screen. When people point out a potential candidate for this, the goal posts are moved in the discussion. Trying to explain that fighter craft in the ST verse don't work that way tends to fall apart due to the inevitable "but MY canon doesn't say that!" responses. Apparently all those times they showed fighters on long voyages on DS9, the pilot was cooking, sleeping, pooping, and eating in his tiny little cockpit.
Same goes for the fact that there is plenty of evidence in the books and other media. When it gets brought up, traditionally someone either basically tries to brush it off, goes into a frothing rage, or changes the goal-posts on what is defined as "acceptable" to be placed in game. This leads to bad feelings on both sides of the line, and by extension, many people just not bothering to respond to the people who wave pitch-forks and torches every time a Fed Carrier topic comes up.
Mind you, STO is free use to use most of the expanded universe. And quite a bit of content from the books and other sources that aren't the primary TV shows is already in. Some of it is even in in an altered format. For instance, we have content from the novels, but that "Destiny" series is apparently not canon/happening yet. Also, THE SISKO is still MIA in STO, which is a direct contrast to the EU. So arguing against that is a bit silly.
There's also the issue of entitlement. If you browse through the KDF forums, certain people who play KDF are really stuck up about the carrier issue, to put it bluntly. It's very apparent if you watch the threads that deal with federation carriers.
Just yesterday I found two topics that had some really arrogant posts in them about being a special, unique snowflake. Claims included basically claiming that Feds would have more ship types, there wouldn't be parity between the factions if the Feds got carriers, Feds wouldn't even know what to do with them, and that the carriers they get should be gimped (The way this was phrased was hilarious.) to justify this.
This completely ignores the fact that the KDF technically already has a formerly Federation unique ship type from release, which was sort of their "version" of carriers. Science ships. Some of the Gorn ships basically have the same slot placement, meaning that the claims of it being unfair that one faction gets another faction's ships or that certain ships should remain unique for whatever reason are really not being thought out. This was pointed out several times in a recent topic, and promptly brushed off and ignored.
It also ignores the fact that with the advent of so many insane C-Store ships, the concept of faction parity, be it present or not, has kind of gone out the window.
Also, to quickly address the claims that it's the KDF's "one last unique thing", that kind of misses the point. It isn't, but even assuming it is, as it's been mentioned many times in the past--- If you are struggling so hard to hold on to a ship type because of that, then maybe you should be pushing the devs to make more content to differentiate the faction, instead of fanatically holding on to such a pithy amount of content. This is coming from someone with two KDF mains.
Basically, there's nothing you can do to stop the detractors. It's been a debate that's been raging since shortly before release. And it was never really nice to begin with. It's gotten kind of nasty in recent months, however.
In many recent topics people will trot out their own definition of the "canon bible" (Ignoring the specifics of STO.) to justify their beliefs on why it shouldn't go in, and try to shout down anyone else. This leads to lots of passive aggressive posting and anger on both sides. Especially since there's a topic or two about it every few months.
To give you an idea of it, one of the older topics I was involved in actually had someone saying that the TV shows never showed them, so they could never be put in because it wasn't canon (Remember what STO can use for canon.). This ignores the fact that the DS9 animators weren't going to do the equivalent of a ship TRIBBLE video showing fighters docking for no good reason unless it was relevant to the plot. Again, mentioned before, brushed off, yadda, yadda.
That's a favorite argument of a lot of people, and also ignores the facts of what this game is allowed to implement. Another guy quoted measurements from some soft canon source of material, trying to claim that ships can't have peregrine fighter craft in them because of the width of the shuttle bay doors. No one knew how to even approach trying to sort that out, given how anal, how well it missed the point of the setting, and how hypocritical it was. Worse still, a bunch of people hopped on the band wagon after he posted that.
Another claim is that the size of a certain refit ship/many ships wouldn't work with so many craft.
Which is really not paying attention to the fact that we have similar ships in game, right now that don't match the size of their fighter complements KDF-side. Or that this is Star Trek. I'm pretty sure given the sheer scale of the techno-babble inherent to the setting, that if either side wanted too they could easily keep fighter craft in an unassembled format until they needed them for extra space. Which actually would handily explain why there's a cooldown on launching fighters, in fact.
Same goes for the claim that the Federation doesn't waste men like that. Pretty sure if they can teleport people through planetary atmospheres that they could give a small blurb about a specialized ejection system for pilots, or something similar. Especially given that there's been quite a bit of time since DS9, the series that really showed off Federation fighter craft (On account of them switching over to CGI mid run.), took place. Which means i'm sure the Federation would have made some improvements to how to field them, logically speaking.
Hopefully i've covered the main counter arguments while trying to explain this. Pretty much impossible to get them all. But it highlights how futile it is to argue when many of the arguments ignore the facts of STO and the setting itself.
Basically, it's a bad idea to bring it up, and sends some really obstinate and/or sometimes crazy people out of the woodwork to attack anyone who tries to ask for it. This leads to many of the stated arguments I mentioned getting thrown around circularly until most people just give up and quit, usually extremely frustrated.
That's not to say that everyone on the detractor side acts like the things I mentioned. But having watched the topics from release, it is a very noticeable, and seemingly large contingent of what makes up the posts. It's also why I, speaking personally, don't bother arguing about it on the forums anymore. To roughly quote the old saying, there's no point wasting time talking to a brick wall.
Fortunately, the devs confirmed a Fed carrier is on the agenda sometime in the future.
Unfortunately, instead of taking some of the great ideas they were given in the past, like an Akira flight deck retrofit cruiser for the end-game, or taking inspiration from some of the carriers from other sources of ST media that were shown, it's going to be a generic alien (Catian) craft instead. Which is a shame, because seeing what Cryptic could do with a Federation carrier that adhered to the design of Federation ships would be neat.
As one of the official "Carriers should not be in the game period" detractors I would like to say, "Excuse me sir but that ship has done sailed and there is no reason to justify Fed Caitian carriers as Cryptic has decided the money in the average Fed players pocket is more than enough justification to do like all the other space IPs up and did."
As one of the official "Carriers should not be in the game period" detractors I would like to say, "Excuse me sir but that ship has done sailed and there is no reason to justify Fed Caitian carriers as Cryptic has decided the money in the average Fed players pocket is more than enough justification to do like all the other space IPs up and did."
Thank you.
I dislike the idea of catian carriers simply because of the aesthetics of it. However i'm very pro Fed carrier.
The concept that one faction would let another have a tactical and strategic edge on them when they live in a setting that basically has fighter craft operate as heavily armed and armored gunships (equivalent in firepower to many capital ships) doesn't make sense. Especially when you start putting things together in your head and realize that it would be really easy for such a techno-babble heavy setting and organization to create a means to save the pilots before they died. Especially, especially when you play KDF side and see all these random peregrine fighters and shuttles sitting in the depths of KDF held space next to larger ships. That's an eye-brow raiser, for sure.
Starfleet has all these old ship hulls lying around. Why not just hollow a bit of one out, and fill it with disassembled starship parts? Or turn the whole of a larger hull into the equivalent of a factory ship and replicate them and assemble them automatically.
Logically speaking, why would Starfleet start yanking hulls from (at this point, civilian) ships to fight? Refitting and updating older hulls is what it sounds like they're doing in-game for some of the more iffy end game and early game Fed ship refits as it is now anyways. Just because something looks old on the outside doesn't mean they haven't used space age techno-magic to turn it into an updated ship inside of it. Even the interiors (mostly, unless you specifically get a retro one) represent that.
The Akira flight deck retrofit was a great example of a good cruiser idea. It's not a full blown "SWARM THEM MY PRETTIES!" style dreadnought carrier. But it is a sort of carrier that would fit the Federation design logic of being adaptable and prioritizing the survival of the crew.
That being said, I would like to see a full blown hangar focused ship eventually, as opposed to a tank that has support craft.
But the thing about that is that designing ships it could launch would probably take up a fair amount of development/design time. Remember that the full-blown carriers KDF side have some pretty unique traits to them, even outside of the ships themselves. And i'd much rather see that effort, for the time being, put into fixing the end game so that it isn't a chore and adding more content at that level. STO is really bad on that front.
Edit: Also, chuckling at the person who said the Vo'Quv is a a terrible ship. Clearly they have never seen the hilariousness that is a tactical officer with full turrets in every weapon slot. Seeing one spewing gunfire in every direction like there's a fire sale on death, pain, and destruction, is really funny. Especially when so many players assume the dinky little ship is helpless without its escorts, and jump in right on top of it at point blank range.
It's pretty much a full blown DPS ship by itself with the right build and setup. That's before you get into the many ships it can field, too. Or the horrifying things that'll happen to the enemy if you brought along a well made premade, since a Vo'Quv also has some really nice science slots. The Vo'Quv works great as a support ship, or "back line" DPSer, since you need to spec it properly into DPS to get that role working well. If you have someone to take the fore for you however, it gets really absurd pretty fast.
Watching a well built turret Vo'Quv fire looks a bit like this:
Only it never ends. Once one skill cools down, you can just pop the next rapid fire or AOE volley. And with the right BO setup, every now and then instead of just firing randomly into space, you target a single ship for insane plinking damage.
Better yet, since the turrets hit so many times, you proc the weapon type special like crazy.
Which means you can pretty much send someone's ship offline constantly, apply a damage resistance debuff, strip their shields really fast so your fighters can torpedo spam it, or just laugh insanely as you constantly crit everything nearby with a thousand 360 radius bullets coming out of the ship every minute while your escort ships/team-mates try to burn them down with their own DPS adding to the stack.
Makes doing the dailies a breeze, too. Especially when you build the ship to be a shield tank with hull heals, and proceed to drop in on top of a group with a gajillion To'Duj fighters behind you.
The only thing you can be assured of when it comes to the Feds is no true T5 Connie. I have even started to desensitize myself to the notion of a significant portion 82% of the entire game population flying whitewashed B'rel-Rs. This of course requires me to reenact that scene from A Clockwork Orange by strapping myself into a chair pinning my eyes open and watching endless loops of Star Trek IV The Voyage Home whist I chant, "They will all be Kirk." in a never ending drone, while I endure extreme electro-shock therapy.
There have been only a few side effects from this regimen so far. *picks up mouse and holds it to face* "Computer; Gagh. Make it cold this time." With any luck I will be re-normalized as a proper denizen of the Borg Collec... erm I mean Federation. *eyes take a sudden vapid glaze accompanied by a voice with a robotic drone* "We are the Federation, lower your shields and prepared to be boarded. All your engineering and unique ships will be re-purposed for our perceived I-win button. At least till we find out that it is not an I-win button."
Till then this is Pi "Factionally Confused" Wright saying...
CHANGE?! Ya got any CHANGE?! Common help a guy out here. I have to replace all the stuff I deleted when I killed off eleven Feds and remade five of them as KDF because having Fed toons embarrasses me after seeing how Fed only players can be...
By the way you missed the part where I said I was against carriers in the game period. Again you do not need to justify Cryptic is putting them in with or without your justifications.
I am not justifying anything. It's called giving an opinion on something. You apparently didn't even read my reply, since nothing I said had any real relevance to what you just responded with.
Something the feds know quite well, it seems. The power of entitlement.
Also, to quickly address the claims that it's the KDF's "one last unique thing", that kind of misses the point. It isn't, but even assuming it is, as it's been mentioned many times in the past--- If you are struggling so hard to hold on to a ship type because of that, then maybe you should be pushing the devs to make more content to differentiate the faction, instead of fanatically holding on to such a pithy amount of content. This is coming from someone with two KDF mains.
The you haven't been paying attention as that fight has been raging longer than the carrier debate and once again it has been atacked on many fronts, including fed entitlement.
This completely ignores the fact that the KDF technically already has a formerly Federation unique ship type from release, which was sort of their "version" of carriers. Science ships. Some of the Gorn ships basically have the same slot placement, meaning that the claims of it being unfair that one faction gets another faction's ships or that certain ships should remain unique for whatever reason are really not being thought out. This was pointed out several times in a recent topic, and promptly brushed off and ignored.
Which completely ignores the fact that one third of the playable carreer choice gievn to the KDF, science, had no viable vessel to allow for them to play said carreer.
The Gorn inclusion of science vessels into the KDF was the proper way to circumvent this failing as it allowed the KDF faction to have science vessels almost identical to the federation basic vessels and still kept the Klingons from having expressely Klingon science vessels that went against the fed belief that the Klingon species has a viable scientific culture.
Fortunately, the devs confirmed a Fed carrier is on the agenda sometime in the future.
As an alien, in this case Caittain, vessel thus allowing carriers to the feds just as Science vessels where added to the KDF.
Anything past that level of inclusion into the game of a carrier for the federation would be an unfairness to the KDF, especially if based of the hard, soft or even flacid cannon evidence of the entire genre, becuase if one looks deep enough into such "cannon" examples you will find that the KDF had fighter craft as part of the armenant of thier larger battle cruisers.
So the fed getting the Caittain FDC carrier is, like the Gorn KDF science vessels, the best way to bring them such a vessel.
Anything past that just goes back to the feds sense of en****lement.
Out of curiosity...why is it not cannon for feds to have carriers?
If it's cause they are a peace keeping force, that would also mean escorts shouldn't of really been made cannon either.
On a fun side note, ESCORTS are canon because that's what the Defiant is. It ESCORTS bigger ships. It's "not" a warship! wink, wink, nudge, nudge.
Something the feds know quite well, it seems. The power of entitlement.
Ohohoho! I am suitably chastised by your witty retort.
Wait, no i'm not. You just gave me the internet equivalent of "no you!" after I typed all that up, describing many of the more the more absurd excuses that were made in the past by people who didn't want the Federation to have carrier ships. Even the (very reasonable) suggestions were viciously attacked by many players with some extremely circumspect and sometimes hypocritical logic. See, the entire Akira suggestion.
The you haven't been paying attention as that fight has been raging longer than the carrier debate and once again it has been atacked on many fronts, including fed entitlement.
Actually, no it hasn't. If you take a very skewed interpretation of it, then perhaps. But otherwise the issue only really started after release when it became apparent that one side was content deficient compared to the other side. Cue the rabid defense of carriers sometime later.
If you want to say that it started in beta because of a few off-hand posts, let me remind you that it was actually a thing in beta to claim that STO was ruined forever because we used to have a much more interactive and wide-ranging color palette. You don't, and never did have to look too far to find a very small group of people raging at something over whether or not it's "canon" or whether it "ruins STO forever" in their eyes. It was only after release, as the game got filled out, however, that the defense of carriers got really over enthusiastic.
And what's this about "fed entitlement"? Did you not see the part of my post where I said I have two KDF mains? And that I run a Vo'Quv carrier myself? Do you assume I am lying to you? Or did you just not read my post?
Given the tone of your post so far, you are right about the "attacks" however. Just not in the way you think you are. If you're going to claim something is "entitlement", you need to actually prove that.
Which completely ignores the fact that one third of the playable carreer choice gievn to the KDF, science, had no viable vessel to allow for them to play said carreer.
The Gorn inclusion of science vessels into the KDF was the proper way to circumvent this failing as it allowed the KDF faction to have science vessels almost identical to the federation basic vessels and still kept the Klingons from having expressely Klingon science vessels that went against the fed belief that the Klingon species has a viable scientific culture.
You don't seem to understand that it doesn't matter if you don't have a ship type available for most of your career.
For example: If you were wanting to run a carrier dependent build, you wouldn't have been able to do so until the end-game,unless you went out and purchased a flight deck cruiser for C-Points at the earlier tiers. At the end of the day, the parity between the factions is best demonstrated at the end game. Which is where all the ships open up, and you can start putting some of the earlier consoles (Like the Rhode Island terminal.) to inventive uses.
You're making a false equivalence argument here. Especially given the likelihood that any main-line Fed carrier ships would be at the end-game, just like any KDF science ships, past, present, and future, would.
As an alien, in this case Caittain, vessel thus allowing carriers to the feds just as Science vessels where added to the KDF.
Anything past that level of inclusion into the game of a carrier for the federation would be an unfairness to the KDF, especially if based of the hard, soft or even flacid cannon evidence of the entire genre, becuase if one looks deep enough into such "cannon" examples you will find that the KDF had fighter craft as part of the armenant of thier larger battle cruisers.
So the fed getting the Caittain FDC carrier is, like the Gorn KDF science vessels, the best way to bring them such a vessel.
Anything past that just goes back to the feds sense of en****lement.
How would it be unfair? In case you didn't notice, once a ship type is in, adding in visual variants that fit the theme of the faction isn't suddenly going to change the balance of the game. Once a carrier of any type is in, the balance argument of ship parity and such is over. Done with. Cosmetics do not affect stats. You're going to see people fielding Fed carriers either way, even if all they have is a weird alien carrier that doesn't fit the theme of the faction.
Also, notice that you said "science vessels". So, I assume that means you're thinking that it's okay for one faction to get multiple types of a previously faction specific ship type, but not the other one.
Also, also. Again, what is with this "fed entitlement" claim? The Federation players didn't do anything except make some very good arguments for it. Many of the Fed players who were for it actually said to wait on putting a Fed carrier in, since in the early history of the game both the KDF and Fed side of the game were extremely content deficient. There were better things for the devs to spend their time on.
Especially at the high end. It's only recently, with F2P, and the STF revamp, that we're seeing something to do at the end game besides grind exploration missions and run the same instances (Which we already had the only reward for once we completed it once.) now.
If you want someone to blame, blame Cryptic. Why?:
A: Money, my dear boy! It doesn't matter if a ton of people were clamoring for it on the forums or not. Adding one in eventually in light of recent ship additions was a great move for Cryptic either way. It's a minimal effort project for maximum financial gain given the current setup of the game.
B: This was a long time coming. Did you really think that they were going to give the KDF Fed side only ships and not reciprocate at some point? If so, you really haven't been paying attention to how they handle the game's development.
Just crying about some vague, non-specific "Fed entitlement", as i've seen you do in other threads, is not indicative of anything but bias on your part. Especially when you never back it up with actual claims of this "bias" that would have effected the development and design of the game. Is there a Federation player holding a gun to the ship designer's head at Cryptic's offices, forcing him to make this? Is there a Federation players throwing thousands of dollars at Cryptic this very moment to get one developed in game?
These are things that would probably effect development. If it wasn't clear, there's been plenty of instances lately where the developers have completely ignored forum feedback. Like the whole gold ferengi box fiasco, the science power changes, the respawn timer additions, the new STF alterations, and much, much more. So thinking they'd somehow make a special exception for this one, single topic is a bit ludicrous.
I dislike the idea of catian carriers simply because of the aesthetics of it. However i'm very pro Fed carrier.
I was very pro Klingon science vessel and dislike the aesthetics of the Gorn vessels, yet the idea of the Klingons having a strictly science vessel was unseemly to many feds.
The "alien" solution given us worked best and the "alien" solution will work for the feds as well.
The concept that one faction would let another have a tactical and strategic edge on them when they live in a setting that basically has fighter craft operate as heavily armed and armored gunships (equivalent in firepower to many capital ships) doesn't make sense.
You do realize the peregrine fighter is a former converted courier class vessel? One considered so weak that it was seen as no more powerful than a armed shuttle.
The Akira flight deck retrofit was a great example of a good cruiser idea. It's not a full blown "SWARM THEM MY PRETTIES!" style dreadnought carrier. But it is a sort of carrier that would fit the Federation design logic of being adaptable and prioritizing the survival of the crew.
It was never shown to be a carrier and while they concept may have existed for it to be one on paper, the premise that it should have been one due to the circumstances of the situation would hold just as true for the Klingons and thier need for a Klingon designed science vessel. Or do you think only the federation recognizes strategic advantages in its opponents and the need to fill that gap from a military standpoint?
It's pretty much a full blown DPS ship by itself with the right build and setup. That's before you get into the many ships it can field, too. Or the horrifying things that'll happen to the enemy if you brought along a well made premade, since a Vo'Quv also has some really nice science slots. The Vo'Quv works great as a support ship, or "back line" DPSer, since you need to spec it properly into DPS to get that role working well. If you have someone to take the fore for you however, it gets really absurd pretty fast.
No more absurd than Bfaw spamming support cruisers of the feds, circling with EXS3 going on each other and spamming Bfaw to the point of looking like a disco ball.
Like any vessel ingame, the Voquv is only as good as its build, pilot and what team it may be playing on.
For every well driven VoQ ingame there are others that pop like swollen zits in combat and to see the good as the status qou is being short sighted.
Only it never ends. Once one skill cools down, you can just pop the next rapid fire or AOE volley. And with the right BO setup, every now and then instead of just firing randomly into space, you target a single ship for insane plinking damage.
Once again any vessel can do this in combat if the build is right. Hardly evidence fo teh VoQ dominance or superiority.
Better yet, since the turrets hit so many times, you proc the weapon type special like crazy.
And since those Bfaw beams hit so many times, those cruisers just clean up..... yadda yadda.
completely capable of doing just what you describe below from any cruiser, any science ship or any ship ingame.
Which means you can pretty much send someone's ship offline constantly, apply a damage resistance debuff, strip their shields really fast so your fighters can torpedo spam it, or just laugh insanely as you constantly crit everything nearby with a thousand 360 radius bullets coming out of the ship every minute while your escort ships/team-mates try to burn them down with their own DPS adding to the stack.
Makes doing the dailies a breeze, too. Especially when you build the ship to be a shield tank with hull heals, and proceed to drop in on top of a group with a gajillion To'Duj fighters behind you.
Yet again not a capability that is just on the KDf side of things. Get some scorpians, some peregrines, some turrets and do it on any cruiser you wish.
The Devs have solved the feds "need" for a carrier in the Caitain FDC inclusion and it is the best way to do so.
My only question has always been, " Why did the feds need a carrier to begin with when you can already spam as much pets as you wish through other ingame means?" What carreer choice does the carrier cover and why is it needed?
On a fun side note, ESCORTS are canon because that's what the Defiant is. It ESCORTS bigger ships. It's "not" a warship! wink, wink, nudge, nudge.
Lol...true, guess that does make escorts cannon.
I like to escort Borg to their next destination all the time, with my peaceful heavily armed starship.
As for the carrier issue, what do you think?
Maybe in cannon whys they wouldn't have carriers, that could be true.
But logically the feds would build them to counter their enemies, and keep up with the technology needed in the war effort.
So what's more important to Sto community?
Logic or Cannon?:cool:
I'm not that worried about it. Carriers didn't exist in the shows, so the canon side of the debate was always a stretch for me. I was always on the side that Roach is on, where it was a factional divide. One that was solved on the science side by the Gorn vessels, and I guess can be solved on the carrier side with feds by taking a similar approach.
I'm not gonna try and nit pick the carcasses of ships in Wolf 359 to argue for or against carriers.
My gripe with new ships is the same gripe I've had with new ships since 2011:
1- New ships are cool but I still really only can fly them in the same old missions I've been flying my old ships in. I want more stories dammit!
2- I didn't like grinding emblems. I really don't like grinding Dilithium.
So I end up on the outside looking in on new ship arguments.
So what's more important to Sto community?
Logic or Cannon?:cool:
Canon's the debate tool of choice, but in the end, I think neither. Most people want to fly their favorite thing. And in general I support that desire, since I too want to fly my favorite thing.
Also ... expanding off my above comment ... I tend to think that most KDF folks would ease up a TON on the Carrier issue if ... Cryptic did some noticeable KDF work to appease KDF issues.
So like, ok, they give up some uniqueness on the ship side. But in return there's some action on the KDF side for KDF issues.
For a lot of KDF folks it's not really JUST the carrier issue. It's that a carrier is getting made on the fed side, and then there's DStahl's latest comments about how the KDF will continue to be prioritized behind everything else.
I was very pro Klingon science vessel and dislike the aesthetics of the Gorn vessels, yet the idea of the Klingons having a strictly science vessel was unseemly to many feds.
The "alien" solution given us worked best and the "alien" solution will work for the feds as well.
And yet you assume that they aren't going to differentiate things to keep the factions unique from each other with the Fed side? That's making an awful long leap there, isn't it?
You do realize the peregrine fighter is a former converted courier class vessel? One considered so weak that it was seen as no more powerful than a armed shuttle.
Yes, they took the "Defiant" approach to it. That is, strip out all of the comfortable stuff, and turn it into a raging engine of mass destruction at the expense of comfort or livability.
Also, no it was not as powerful as an armed shuttle. It was much stronger. They weren't fielding shuttles in large numbers during Sacrifice of Angels. I don't even know how you'd think that, if you watched the show they featured in. They made specific references to it having an ungodly amount of firepower to it in the show. Again, the thing basically took the approach the Defiant had.
It was a converted ship meant to to wage war. And it showed. The thing had a nasty armament. And if that isn't enough for you, they had and showed it firing the very same torpedoes that capital ships like the Galaxy have on them. They wrecked quite a few ships when they were shown on-screen.
You know what the fighters in the show were? They were a cost and time efficient way to get men and women up into space outside of huge ships, with something that could do a lot of damage.
Hence, somewhat expendable ships being developed by someone at Starfleet that weren't crewed by hundreds of people. One person dying because some ship decided to ram them after they were badly damaged is a lot better then them losing a Galaxy class ship with all hands on board. Which, by the way, they showed a Galaxy ship in DS9 dying in the exact same manner I just described.
Sure, they might die, but the whole point of the entire main arc of the show was that the Dominion was going to zerg the Federation to death if they got the chance, and they needed a way to counter their manpower.
By the way. Guess what situation Starfleet is in in-game now?
It was never shown to be a carrier and while they concept may have existed for it to be one on paper, the premise that it should have been one due to the circumstances of the situation would hold just as true for the Klingons and thier need for a Klingon designed science vessel. Or do you think only the federation recognizes strategic advantages in its opponents and the need to fill that gap from a military standpoint?
Again. Read up on my posts. Also, on a side note, you quoted the same post twice. One to give a bunch of one liners, and now this.
If you had been paying attention to STO's development, you'd realize it incorporates a ton of EU and soft canon stuff. They do not have to, and will not go just by what is seen on a TV screen. That would be stupid.
Do you seriously think a CGI designer back during DS9 actually stopped one day and thought to himself "Gee, I should add in a scene of this obviously over-armed fighter docking, so as to resolve incredibly anal arguments between nerds in the future?". Or do you think he was interested in making cool scenes where starships blew each other up to make sure he didn't get fired and the show didn't get canceled for being boring to most people?
Starfleet does counter military advantages. See, everything they do to counter the Romulans messing with them in TNG. You also don't seem to understand just why a carrier ship is so neat for just about any organization. You don't have to use it to send stuff out to blow other, presumably hostile, stuff up. You can use it for search and rescue, to deliver aid, to encompass a wider area of a given location then one ship or person could ever hope to achieve.
Carriers are not just about putting as much "dakka" out there as possible. They are about force projection. They can get something somewhere, and back to safety again more reliably then any plane or vehicle could hope if it had to try and make the journey itself.
Do you think certain non-military organizations sometimes have, or would like to have ships or other means of transportation that can field other means of transportation just because they want to blow stuff up? Because they're really hankering for an urge to engage in a destructo-derby with other vehicles, and they just can't wait to get back home? I mean, seriously?
And you're seriously telling me that Starfleet wouldn't want a highly adaptable ship (All you have to do is switch out what kind of ships it has in it! Brilliant!) that could do the duties of five, or even ten ships, in certain research, diplomatic, rescue, or other similar situations?
Or that if they had such ships, they might not eventually go "Hey, looks like the KDF caught on to that whole "force projection" concept before we did. Maybe we should work out a counter? Wait, no, i'm sure that we, THE FEDERATION could never counter the potential loss of pilots with decently designed technology or tactics."?
I mean, never mind that they were throwing fighter ships into a literal starship comprised meatgrinder in DS9. Nevermind that you don't seem to understand what the concept of force projection is. Or how it would apply in this setting. Never mind that it's a really common sense thing for many groups that do search and rescue or aid operations in real life. Let's just ignore the fact that they actually made a Star Trek game about this theoretical ship in the past. And it featured characters doing these exact same aid and search and rescue missions in a few missions, to remind people that it wasn't just a generic space shooter and was a Star Trek game.
No more absurd than Bfaw spamming support cruisers of the feds, circling with EXS3 going on each other and spamming Bfaw to the point of looking like a disco ball.
Like any vessel ingame, the Voquv is only as good as its build, pilot and what team it may be playing on.
For every well driven VoQ ingame there are others that pop like swollen zits in combat and to see the good as the status qou is being short sighted.
Once again any vessel can do this in combat if the build is right. Hardly evidence fo teh VoQ dominance or superiority.
And since those Bfaw beams hit so many times, those cruisers just clean up..... yadda yadda.
completely capable of doing just what you describe below from any cruiser, any science ship or any ship ingame.
Any build and ship can be a turret spammer. Some can do it really well, in fact.
You don't seem to understand, however, that not every ship can strip the shields off of things with tetryon blasts from a full grouping of turrets, so the dozen fighters lining up for a strike against it off to the side can spam photon torpedoes at a rate no cap ship can on the empty facing for massive damage while the Vo'Quv tractors the ship in place.
This is very different from just a generic tank n' turret ship, since your method of play has to be very different, your means of survival is very different, and your tactics on how to quickly kill things are very different. You are not playing a cruiser. You are playing a heavily armed, only somewhat moderately defensible command ship. You're making a ton of assumptions here.
Also, the given skill of a group of people playing a ship type has absolutely no bearing on this argument. Not everyone can play an escort in such a way that it can pop STF cubes in 10 to 30 seconds. Not everyone can build a cruiser so that it can take shots from a STF Tac Cube. Assuming you actually seriously meant that to be relevant, this is basically you ignoring part of the realities of the game to try and make a point that has nothing to do with this discussion.
Given that post, I actually kind of wonder if you've ever played a proper turret carrier now. You seem to be thinking of it as a traditional tank and spank ship focused around AOE and rapid fire attacks, when that's just step one to do what you need to do to optimize yourself.
Yet again not a capability that is just on the KDf side of things. Get some scorpians, some peregrines, some turrets and do it on any cruiser you wish.
The Devs have solved the feds "need" for a carrier in the Caitain FDC inclusion and it is the best way to do so.
My only question has always been, " Why did the feds need a carrier to begin with when you can already spam as much pets as you wish through other ingame means?" What carreer choice does the carrier cover and why is it needed?
Those pets cost real life money or are very difficult to obtain. On top of all of that they are not available in the quantities that normal carriers are. Don't forget that they don't do the same damage, don't have the same health, or even have the AI a proper carrier escort has. They're a trinket that anyone, even people who pilot a carrier can use. Not a core gameplay feature.
You're making another false equivalence argument here.
Also:
It was never shown to be a carrier and while they concept may have existed for it to be one on paper, the premise that it should have been one due to the circumstances of the situation would hold just as true for the Klingons and thier need for a Klingon designed science vessel.
I never said that the KDF shouldn't get a science vessel. I was pointing out that you were very naive to think that one faction was going to get a set of ships that filled the role that the opposite faction had exclusivity on at one point, and then never expected the same thing to happen for the Feds for the KDF mirror.
Also, again, on paper doesn't matter. Guess what? The TV shows are not the only source. In fact, aside from the initial world-building, they play a very small part in the game, if you pay attention. You can see a ton of legacy characters hanging around the game world. Never mind characters and events, sometimes altered, from the novels.
Also ... expanding off my above comment ... I tend to think that most KDF folks would ease up a TON on the Carrier issue if ... Cryptic did some noticeable KDF work to appease KDF issues.
So like, ok, they give up some uniqueness on the ship side. But in return there's some action on the KDF side for KDF issues.
For a lot of KDF folks it's not really JUST the carrier issue. It's that a carrier is getting made on the fed side, and then there's DStahl's latest comments about how the KDF will continue to be prioritized behind everything else.
It's just salt in the wound you know?
Yeah I agree, KDF needs pretty much its own content team really.
That's the only way it's going to get solved.
Cryptic said they were going to turn KDF into a full fledge side, and they should stick to their word.
It might even tone down the bad blood between FED/KDF players.
I can understand how KDF players feel.
It's like having a younger brother who gets all the toys, you start feeling resentment for them even though it's not your brothers fault. It's your parents.
I can only say that I really like to command a carrier, and do so on my Klingon toon. But I do not like Klingon culture (look at the doff missions, for example: these people kill their own crew), and given the opportunity to command a carrier on the Fed side, I would certainly take it, though probably using some kind of fighter drones instead of manned spacecraft.
Yes, this means that I would play my Klingon toon less if there was a Federation carrier or at least flight deck cruiser. But that would increase my enjoyment with the game, that's for sure - which has nothing to do with a claimed "lack of content" on the KDF side (there is not really one, if you want missions, take the few hundreds the Foundry has to offer), but simply with personal preferences on who I want to identify with.
Your entitlement is showing again, since evidently my expression of Opinion is not to be considered valid as any other opinion given.
Is it the ridges? Does my enjoyment of something not fed invalidate my opinion that the Devs have handled the "fed Carrier" situation as it should be handled?
Actually, no it hasn't. If you take a very skewed interpretation of it, then perhaps. But otherwise the issue only really started after release when it became apparent that one side was content deficient compared to the other side. Cue the rabid defense of carriers sometime later.
Yes it does. The lack of viable content for the KDf has existed before the carriers where ever put into the game as an option for them and the arguement that we KDF fans needed more content for our faction was expressed on the very day we where released as a PvP faction.
If you want to say that it started in beta because of a few off-hand posts, let me remind you that it was actually a thing in beta to claim that STO was ruined forever because we used to have a much more interactive and wide-ranging color palette. You don't, and never did have to look too far to find a very small group of people raging at something over whether or not it's "canon" or whether it "ruins STO forever" in their eyes. It was only after release, as the game got filled out, however, that the defense of carriers got really over enthusiastic.
The rage over carriers stems back to the loss of other, considered strictly KDF, identifying factors like cloak. It also stems from watching the Devs create all manner of minutia for oneside of the game ranging from hairtech to period costumes while seemingly ignoring the other half in the process. Its left a taint of anger at Cryptic on many KDF fans that still lives today.
And what's this about "fed entitlement"? Did you not see the part of my post where I said I have two KDF mains? And that I run a Vo'Quv carrier myself? Do you assume I am lying to you? Or did you just not read my post?
I have a fed character, does that make me a fed fan? No.
Did I say you where lying or even imply it in my repsonse? No.
Did I read your post? Yes. How else could I muster a response if I did not read it?
Given the tone of your post so far, you are right about the "attacks" however. Just not in the way you think you are. If you're going to claim something is "entitlement", you need to actually prove that.
Many proofs exist in the forums and in the attitudes given in some responses to, particulary the fed carrier idea, such as when the Devs said, " we are making a fed carrier. It will be a caitain FDC" and many Feds responded that that was not right and it needed to be a federation vessel by design.
We KDF fans offered the same reasoning when we sought Science vessels and where shot down for it.
Why is it a good defense for the feds but a failing for the KDF?
Many moments of entitlement exist in posts such as when asked why do the feds need a carrier replies that said, " Becuase I hate the Klingons but want to play a carrier. Is that a valid reason?".
SO how is another player of STO, a player of a faction not fed based, suppossed to see examples of such "entitlement" and not see it for what it is?
You don't seem to understand that it doesn't matter if you don't have a ship type available for most of your career.
I do understand that at endgame levels it sucks to be playing a class you enjoy that is gimped because others do not see the need for a vessel that allows you to play the full range of your classes abilities.
BoPs work well for a science player, but they are not a science vessel. They are merley science friendly VoQs work well for a science player but they are not science vessels. They are merely science friendly.
How would it be unfair? In case you didn't notice, once a ship type is in, adding in visual variants that fit the theme of the faction isn't suddenly going to change the balance of the game. Once a carrier of any type is in, the balance argument of ship parity and such is over. Done with. Cosmetics do not affect stats. You're going to see people fielding Fed carriers either way, even if all they have is a weird alien carrier that doesn't fit the theme of the faction.
It would be unfair becuase we KDF fans had to settle for the Dev solution of an Alien science vessel concept when many more specific, and even limited by Klingon ideology, designs where given to fill that role.
Why should the feds get a fed designed carrier just becuase they are feds? We KDf did not get a Klingon designed science vessel just becuase we are klingon.
Ultimately the solution used by the Devs to bring a better level of Science playability to the KDF was the best one. Alien designes fostered by an ally.
Its the solution that best works for the feds too.
Also, also. Again, what is with this "fed entitlement" claim? The Federation players didn't do anything except make some very good arguments for it. Many of the Fed players who were for it actually said to wait on putting a Fed carrier in, since in the early history of the game both the KDF and Fed side of the game were extremely content deficient. There were better things for the devs to spend their time on.
Many good arguements have been made on both sides for against and otherwise, yet only the KDF arguements seem to have been dismissed as unreasonable.
Just crying about some vague, non-specific "Fed entitlement", as i've seen you do in other threads, is not indicative of anything but bias on your part. Especially when you never back it up with actual claims of this "bias" that would have effected the development and design of the game. Is there a Federation player holding a gun to the ship designer's head at Cryptic's offices, forcing him to make this? Is there a Federation players throwing thousands of dollars at Cryptic this very moment to get one developed in game?
Of course my outlook is biased. My fandom within the IP sits on one side of the genre. It is no more biased than than yours or any other fan within the genre. Much of the bias that we KDF fans have seen has been covered in Peregrine falcons timeline of KDF development. Then again like all bias its only visible to those who see it.
As to the "gun against the head" comment... Its not a gun that feds are holding but a wallet backed by such numbers as 82% and phrases like, " But Star Trek is only about the Federation"
As I have said before though, all of this is moot. I like the approach the Devs have taken to get the feds a carrier and think it solves the whole issue of wether or not an exploration and scientific entity like the federation would even have a speciality designed vessel like the carrier in thier fleet while givening them what they want.
I do find it funny that when given the object that satifies what the feds desired they emmidiatly tried to go that extra mile and get more than what they are to be given and backed it with same sense of entitlement that we KDF fans have seen for quite some time.
But this is all my opinion though and like certain orifices we all have, it smells no worse than any other.
Those pets cost real life money or are very difficult to obtain. On top of all of that they are not available in the quantities that normal carriers are. Don't forget that they don't do the same damage, don't have the same health, or even have the AI a proper carrier escort has. They're a trinket that anyone, even people who pilot a carrier can use. Not a core gameplay feature.
You're making another false equivalence argument here.
I got a bunch of turrets free for doin DOFF missions and my Scorpion fighters came free for doing the Romulan FEs, which are far easier than STFs. So I cannot begin to understand where you got this statement.
I got a bunch of turrets free for doin DOFF missions and my Scorpion fighters came free for doing the Romulan FEs, which are far easier than STFs. So I cannot begin to understand where you got this statement.
Turrets had nothing to do with what I posted. Read what I posted again.
In order to get scorpion fighters you need to run a shuttle FE. In order to get peregrine fighters you need to pay money and hope that the lockbox you open has them out of the many, many items it could give you. The peregrine fighter is on a timer and has a number of charges to it. The scorpion fighters are very weak offensively and defensively, and have charges too.
Neither scorpion fighters or peregrine fighters have the capabilities or usefulness of actual carrier pets. As I explained in the post that you quoted.
Scorpion fighters, specifically, are a damage trinket on a fairly long timer that summons highly expendable mobs. Also, they do not, unless stated, stack with carrier pet counts. So unless they fixed that in the past few months, you could field them with carrier pets too. So I fail to see how exactly you don't see what i'm saying.
Your entitlement is showing again, since evidently my expression of Opinion is not to be considered valid as any other opinion given.
Is it the ridges? Does my enjoyment of something not fed invalidate my opinion that the Devs have handled the "fed Carrier" situation as it should be handled?
Either you didn't even read my posts, or you are trolling very hard. Either way, I don't see why I should waste my time talking to someone who ignores everything I say, jumps around posts to try and confuse the discussion, ignores every other thing I mention, admitted to being heavily biased about the subject at hand, and comes up with some sort of double-speak/think method of trying to counter what he does actually reply too.
Carriers are going in for the Fed side. If you had been paying attention, you would have known to expect it given past changes and the history of the setting and the game. No amount of complaining, claiming that Federation players are "entitled", or ignoring the facts (That I posted a good deal of in another post that you completely ignored!) changes what is going to happen. If you didn't see this coming then that's your own fault. No one else's. Deal with it.
Edit:
Of course my outlook is biased. My fandom within the IP sits on one side of the genre. It is no more biased than than yours or any other fan within the genre. Much of the bias that we KDF fans have seen has been covered in Peregrine falcons timeline of KDF development. Then again like all bias its only visible to those who see it.
As to the "gun against the head" comment... Its not a gun that feds are holding but a wallet backed by such numbers as 82% and phrases like, " But Star Trek is only about the Federation"
PS: I have mains on both factions. I've mentioned this to you several times now. You seem to assume I am trying to gun for an "edge" or unique toy when I am not. I desire no edge or unique toys in the game, because I already have a carrier on my KDF main. My mains have, between them, already earned literally everything there is to earn in the game outside of some (very time consuming) DOFF chain rewards. So no, this is not about personal bias on my part.
If Cryptic was going to hand out Fed side exclusives to the opposite faction, then the same should be done for the KDF side mirror. That is what is happening. Just to say it for a third/fourth time, this is not "entitlement". This is not "bias". This is me expecting the company to act in a competent and responsible manner when it comes to developing their products.
You are a part of a very vocal minority. When I post on here, I am part of a very vocal minority. Were a whole set of carriers added in tomorrow, the vast majority of the game would probably have reactions ranging from "Huh, that's neat, I guess" to "HOLY TRIBBLE THAT'S AWESOME! *Spends $.*". The forums would flip out and rage about it, as they do with every other feature that goes in the game, and as the STF changes just showed, most would, at worst, grumble about it and add another tally to their things that irritate them about the game.
If that tally gets too high, then you should start worrying. But carriers are not going to be the thing that causes the game to self destruct.
As for the "82" percent", setting aside that you have no way of knowing who plays what side, and what the cross over is, this isn't about TRIBBLE over one group of people. It isn't about someone thumbing their nose at someone else. It's about developing the game and making sure it isn't a broken mess. Quit assuming malice where incompetence, opportunism, or, rarely, genuine attempts at doing the right thing by the player base are much more fitting.
Comments
Fixed that for you.
Yeah because the AI in PvE is so sophisticated that you would really have to come up with novel ways to wring the most out of a carrier... Trust me PvP is the best place to really have your carrier tactics and strategies challenged. Other wise your just clubbing baby seals.
The Devs have their datamining, they see what the population balance looks like and where the money is coming from.
It's really just that easy.
I find the name wierd.
Why can't they just call it a Nimitz class. Then we won't make meow jokes.
Hello Kitty class. Hmph.
The only thing you can be assured of when it comes to the Feds is no true T5 Connie. I have even started to desensitize myself to the notion of a significant portion 82% of the entire game population flying whitewashed B'rel-Rs. This of course requires me to reenact that scene from A Clockwork Orange by strapping myself into a chair pinning my eyes open and watching endless loops of Star Trek IV The Voyage Home whist I chant, "They will all be Kirk." in a never ending drone, while I endure extreme electro-shock therapy.
There have been only a few side effects from this regimen so far. *picks up mouse and holds it to face* "Computer; Gagh. Make it cold this time." With any luck I will be re-normalized as a proper denizen of the Borg Collec... erm I mean Federation. *eyes take a sudden vapid glaze accompanied by a voice with a robotic drone* "We are the Federation, lower your shields and prepared to be boarded. All your engineering and unique ships will be re-purposed for our perceived I-win button. At least till we find out that it is not an I-win button."
Till then this is Pi "Factionally Confused" Wright saying...
CHANGE?! Ya got any CHANGE?! Common help a guy out here...
If it's cause they are a peace keeping force, that would also mean escorts shouldn't of really been made cannon either.
Shhhhh! This argument has been raging for ages!
Explaining this and the history of it is going to make for a long post. Especially to cover the usual counter arguments against it, which is the main method many detractors for it take. So fair warning:
The short of it is that many people keep playing the "canon lawyer" or "MY IMMERSION" cards as the main reason for it.
Any time someone points out that there were fighters in the TV show, people claim we never saw a carrier on screen. When people point out a potential candidate for this, the goal posts are moved in the discussion. Trying to explain that fighter craft in the ST verse don't work that way tends to fall apart due to the inevitable "but MY canon doesn't say that!" responses. Apparently all those times they showed fighters on long voyages on DS9, the pilot was cooking, sleeping, pooping, and eating in his tiny little cockpit.
Same goes for the fact that there is plenty of evidence in the books and other media. When it gets brought up, traditionally someone either basically tries to brush it off, goes into a frothing rage, or changes the goal-posts on what is defined as "acceptable" to be placed in game. This leads to bad feelings on both sides of the line, and by extension, many people just not bothering to respond to the people who wave pitch-forks and torches every time a Fed Carrier topic comes up.
Mind you, STO is free use to use most of the expanded universe. And quite a bit of content from the books and other sources that aren't the primary TV shows is already in. Some of it is even in in an altered format. For instance, we have content from the novels, but that "Destiny" series is apparently not canon/happening yet. Also, THE SISKO is still MIA in STO, which is a direct contrast to the EU. So arguing against that is a bit silly.
There's also the issue of entitlement. If you browse through the KDF forums, certain people who play KDF are really stuck up about the carrier issue, to put it bluntly. It's very apparent if you watch the threads that deal with federation carriers.
Just yesterday I found two topics that had some really arrogant posts in them about being a special, unique snowflake. Claims included basically claiming that Feds would have more ship types, there wouldn't be parity between the factions if the Feds got carriers, Feds wouldn't even know what to do with them, and that the carriers they get should be gimped (The way this was phrased was hilarious.) to justify this.
This completely ignores the fact that the KDF technically already has a formerly Federation unique ship type from release, which was sort of their "version" of carriers. Science ships. Some of the Gorn ships basically have the same slot placement, meaning that the claims of it being unfair that one faction gets another faction's ships or that certain ships should remain unique for whatever reason are really not being thought out. This was pointed out several times in a recent topic, and promptly brushed off and ignored.
It also ignores the fact that with the advent of so many insane C-Store ships, the concept of faction parity, be it present or not, has kind of gone out the window.
Also, to quickly address the claims that it's the KDF's "one last unique thing", that kind of misses the point. It isn't, but even assuming it is, as it's been mentioned many times in the past--- If you are struggling so hard to hold on to a ship type because of that, then maybe you should be pushing the devs to make more content to differentiate the faction, instead of fanatically holding on to such a pithy amount of content. This is coming from someone with two KDF mains.
Basically, there's nothing you can do to stop the detractors. It's been a debate that's been raging since shortly before release. And it was never really nice to begin with. It's gotten kind of nasty in recent months, however.
In many recent topics people will trot out their own definition of the "canon bible" (Ignoring the specifics of STO.) to justify their beliefs on why it shouldn't go in, and try to shout down anyone else. This leads to lots of passive aggressive posting and anger on both sides. Especially since there's a topic or two about it every few months.
To give you an idea of it, one of the older topics I was involved in actually had someone saying that the TV shows never showed them, so they could never be put in because it wasn't canon (Remember what STO can use for canon.). This ignores the fact that the DS9 animators weren't going to do the equivalent of a ship TRIBBLE video showing fighters docking for no good reason unless it was relevant to the plot. Again, mentioned before, brushed off, yadda, yadda.
That's a favorite argument of a lot of people, and also ignores the facts of what this game is allowed to implement. Another guy quoted measurements from some soft canon source of material, trying to claim that ships can't have peregrine fighter craft in them because of the width of the shuttle bay doors. No one knew how to even approach trying to sort that out, given how anal, how well it missed the point of the setting, and how hypocritical it was. Worse still, a bunch of people hopped on the band wagon after he posted that.
Another claim is that the size of a certain refit ship/many ships wouldn't work with so many craft.
Which is really not paying attention to the fact that we have similar ships in game, right now that don't match the size of their fighter complements KDF-side. Or that this is Star Trek. I'm pretty sure given the sheer scale of the techno-babble inherent to the setting, that if either side wanted too they could easily keep fighter craft in an unassembled format until they needed them for extra space. Which actually would handily explain why there's a cooldown on launching fighters, in fact.
Same goes for the claim that the Federation doesn't waste men like that. Pretty sure if they can teleport people through planetary atmospheres that they could give a small blurb about a specialized ejection system for pilots, or something similar. Especially given that there's been quite a bit of time since DS9, the series that really showed off Federation fighter craft (On account of them switching over to CGI mid run.), took place. Which means i'm sure the Federation would have made some improvements to how to field them, logically speaking.
Hopefully i've covered the main counter arguments while trying to explain this. Pretty much impossible to get them all. But it highlights how futile it is to argue when many of the arguments ignore the facts of STO and the setting itself.
Basically, it's a bad idea to bring it up, and sends some really obstinate and/or sometimes crazy people out of the woodwork to attack anyone who tries to ask for it. This leads to many of the stated arguments I mentioned getting thrown around circularly until most people just give up and quit, usually extremely frustrated.
That's not to say that everyone on the detractor side acts like the things I mentioned. But having watched the topics from release, it is a very noticeable, and seemingly large contingent of what makes up the posts. It's also why I, speaking personally, don't bother arguing about it on the forums anymore. To roughly quote the old saying, there's no point wasting time talking to a brick wall.
Fortunately, the devs confirmed a Fed carrier is on the agenda sometime in the future.
Unfortunately, instead of taking some of the great ideas they were given in the past, like an Akira flight deck retrofit cruiser for the end-game, or taking inspiration from some of the carriers from other sources of ST media that were shown, it's going to be a generic alien (Catian) craft instead. Which is a shame, because seeing what Cryptic could do with a Federation carrier that adhered to the design of Federation ships would be neat.
As one of the official "Carriers should not be in the game period" detractors I would like to say, "Excuse me sir but that ship has done sailed and there is no reason to justify Fed Caitian carriers as Cryptic has decided the money in the average Fed players pocket is more than enough justification to do like all the other space IPs up and did."
Thank you.
I dislike the idea of catian carriers simply because of the aesthetics of it. However i'm very pro Fed carrier.
The concept that one faction would let another have a tactical and strategic edge on them when they live in a setting that basically has fighter craft operate as heavily armed and armored gunships (equivalent in firepower to many capital ships) doesn't make sense. Especially when you start putting things together in your head and realize that it would be really easy for such a techno-babble heavy setting and organization to create a means to save the pilots before they died. Especially, especially when you play KDF side and see all these random peregrine fighters and shuttles sitting in the depths of KDF held space next to larger ships. That's an eye-brow raiser, for sure.
Starfleet has all these old ship hulls lying around. Why not just hollow a bit of one out, and fill it with disassembled starship parts? Or turn the whole of a larger hull into the equivalent of a factory ship and replicate them and assemble them automatically.
Logically speaking, why would Starfleet start yanking hulls from (at this point, civilian) ships to fight? Refitting and updating older hulls is what it sounds like they're doing in-game for some of the more iffy end game and early game Fed ship refits as it is now anyways. Just because something looks old on the outside doesn't mean they haven't used space age techno-magic to turn it into an updated ship inside of it. Even the interiors (mostly, unless you specifically get a retro one) represent that.
The Akira flight deck retrofit was a great example of a good cruiser idea. It's not a full blown "SWARM THEM MY PRETTIES!" style dreadnought carrier. But it is a sort of carrier that would fit the Federation design logic of being adaptable and prioritizing the survival of the crew.
That being said, I would like to see a full blown hangar focused ship eventually, as opposed to a tank that has support craft.
But the thing about that is that designing ships it could launch would probably take up a fair amount of development/design time. Remember that the full-blown carriers KDF side have some pretty unique traits to them, even outside of the ships themselves. And i'd much rather see that effort, for the time being, put into fixing the end game so that it isn't a chore and adding more content at that level. STO is really bad on that front.
Edit: Also, chuckling at the person who said the Vo'Quv is a a terrible ship. Clearly they have never seen the hilariousness that is a tactical officer with full turrets in every weapon slot. Seeing one spewing gunfire in every direction like there's a fire sale on death, pain, and destruction, is really funny. Especially when so many players assume the dinky little ship is helpless without its escorts, and jump in right on top of it at point blank range.
It's pretty much a full blown DPS ship by itself with the right build and setup. That's before you get into the many ships it can field, too. Or the horrifying things that'll happen to the enemy if you brought along a well made premade, since a Vo'Quv also has some really nice science slots. The Vo'Quv works great as a support ship, or "back line" DPSer, since you need to spec it properly into DPS to get that role working well. If you have someone to take the fore for you however, it gets really absurd pretty fast.
Watching a well built turret Vo'Quv fire looks a bit like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gI5tFv8jRE
Only it never ends. Once one skill cools down, you can just pop the next rapid fire or AOE volley. And with the right BO setup, every now and then instead of just firing randomly into space, you target a single ship for insane plinking damage.
Better yet, since the turrets hit so many times, you proc the weapon type special like crazy.
Which means you can pretty much send someone's ship offline constantly, apply a damage resistance debuff, strip their shields really fast so your fighters can torpedo spam it, or just laugh insanely as you constantly crit everything nearby with a thousand 360 radius bullets coming out of the ship every minute while your escort ships/team-mates try to burn them down with their own DPS adding to the stack.
Makes doing the dailies a breeze, too. Especially when you build the ship to be a shield tank with hull heals, and proceed to drop in on top of a group with a gajillion To'Duj fighters behind you.
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By the way you missed the part where I said I was against carriers in the game period. Again you do not need to justify Cryptic is putting them in with or without your justifications.
On a fun side note, ESCORTS are canon because that's what the Defiant is. It ESCORTS bigger ships. It's "not" a warship! wink, wink, nudge, nudge.
You assume that the active KDF population is 18%?
I'd like a quote on that.
The quote I read, said that only 18% of the playerbase had actually even made a KDF character - not actively playing only created.
On a fun side note, in real life "destroyers" are a class of ship that ESCORT other ships.
Ohohoho! I am suitably chastised by your witty retort.
Wait, no i'm not. You just gave me the internet equivalent of "no you!" after I typed all that up, describing many of the more the more absurd excuses that were made in the past by people who didn't want the Federation to have carrier ships. Even the (very reasonable) suggestions were viciously attacked by many players with some extremely circumspect and sometimes hypocritical logic. See, the entire Akira suggestion.
Actually, no it hasn't. If you take a very skewed interpretation of it, then perhaps. But otherwise the issue only really started after release when it became apparent that one side was content deficient compared to the other side. Cue the rabid defense of carriers sometime later.
If you want to say that it started in beta because of a few off-hand posts, let me remind you that it was actually a thing in beta to claim that STO was ruined forever because we used to have a much more interactive and wide-ranging color palette. You don't, and never did have to look too far to find a very small group of people raging at something over whether or not it's "canon" or whether it "ruins STO forever" in their eyes. It was only after release, as the game got filled out, however, that the defense of carriers got really over enthusiastic.
And what's this about "fed entitlement"? Did you not see the part of my post where I said I have two KDF mains? And that I run a Vo'Quv carrier myself? Do you assume I am lying to you? Or did you just not read my post?
Given the tone of your post so far, you are right about the "attacks" however. Just not in the way you think you are. If you're going to claim something is "entitlement", you need to actually prove that.
You don't seem to understand that it doesn't matter if you don't have a ship type available for most of your career.
For example: If you were wanting to run a carrier dependent build, you wouldn't have been able to do so until the end-game,unless you went out and purchased a flight deck cruiser for C-Points at the earlier tiers. At the end of the day, the parity between the factions is best demonstrated at the end game. Which is where all the ships open up, and you can start putting some of the earlier consoles (Like the Rhode Island terminal.) to inventive uses.
You're making a false equivalence argument here. Especially given the likelihood that any main-line Fed carrier ships would be at the end-game, just like any KDF science ships, past, present, and future, would.
How would it be unfair? In case you didn't notice, once a ship type is in, adding in visual variants that fit the theme of the faction isn't suddenly going to change the balance of the game. Once a carrier of any type is in, the balance argument of ship parity and such is over. Done with. Cosmetics do not affect stats. You're going to see people fielding Fed carriers either way, even if all they have is a weird alien carrier that doesn't fit the theme of the faction.
Also, notice that you said "science vessels". So, I assume that means you're thinking that it's okay for one faction to get multiple types of a previously faction specific ship type, but not the other one.
Also, also. Again, what is with this "fed entitlement" claim? The Federation players didn't do anything except make some very good arguments for it. Many of the Fed players who were for it actually said to wait on putting a Fed carrier in, since in the early history of the game both the KDF and Fed side of the game were extremely content deficient. There were better things for the devs to spend their time on.
Especially at the high end. It's only recently, with F2P, and the STF revamp, that we're seeing something to do at the end game besides grind exploration missions and run the same instances (Which we already had the only reward for once we completed it once.) now.
If you want someone to blame, blame Cryptic. Why?:
A: Money, my dear boy! It doesn't matter if a ton of people were clamoring for it on the forums or not. Adding one in eventually in light of recent ship additions was a great move for Cryptic either way. It's a minimal effort project for maximum financial gain given the current setup of the game.
B: This was a long time coming. Did you really think that they were going to give the KDF Fed side only ships and not reciprocate at some point? If so, you really haven't been paying attention to how they handle the game's development.
Just crying about some vague, non-specific "Fed entitlement", as i've seen you do in other threads, is not indicative of anything but bias on your part. Especially when you never back it up with actual claims of this "bias" that would have effected the development and design of the game. Is there a Federation player holding a gun to the ship designer's head at Cryptic's offices, forcing him to make this? Is there a Federation players throwing thousands of dollars at Cryptic this very moment to get one developed in game?
These are things that would probably effect development. If it wasn't clear, there's been plenty of instances lately where the developers have completely ignored forum feedback. Like the whole gold ferengi box fiasco, the science power changes, the respawn timer additions, the new STF alterations, and much, much more. So thinking they'd somehow make a special exception for this one, single topic is a bit ludicrous.
Real life has nothing to do with Star Trek. You know why? Destroyers can't cloak. And they don't fire transphasic torpedoes.
Yeah, the source of that information is not trustworthy. Never has been.
Lol...true, guess that does make escorts cannon.
I like to escort Borg to their next destination all the time, with my peaceful heavily armed starship.
As for the carrier issue, what do you think?
Maybe in cannon whys they wouldn't have carriers, that could be true.
But logically the feds would build them to counter their enemies, and keep up with the technology needed in the war effort.
So what's more important to Sto community?
Logic or Cannon?:cool:
I'm not that worried about it. Carriers didn't exist in the shows, so the canon side of the debate was always a stretch for me. I was always on the side that Roach is on, where it was a factional divide. One that was solved on the science side by the Gorn vessels, and I guess can be solved on the carrier side with feds by taking a similar approach.
I'm not gonna try and nit pick the carcasses of ships in Wolf 359 to argue for or against carriers.
My gripe with new ships is the same gripe I've had with new ships since 2011:
1- New ships are cool but I still really only can fly them in the same old missions I've been flying my old ships in. I want more stories dammit!
2- I didn't like grinding emblems. I really don't like grinding Dilithium.
So I end up on the outside looking in on new ship arguments.
Canon's the debate tool of choice, but in the end, I think neither. Most people want to fly their favorite thing. And in general I support that desire, since I too want to fly my favorite thing.
So like, ok, they give up some uniqueness on the ship side. But in return there's some action on the KDF side for KDF issues.
For a lot of KDF folks it's not really JUST the carrier issue. It's that a carrier is getting made on the fed side, and then there's DStahl's latest comments about how the KDF will continue to be prioritized behind everything else.
It's just salt in the wound you know?
Yes, they took the "Defiant" approach to it. That is, strip out all of the comfortable stuff, and turn it into a raging engine of mass destruction at the expense of comfort or livability.
Also, no it was not as powerful as an armed shuttle. It was much stronger. They weren't fielding shuttles in large numbers during Sacrifice of Angels. I don't even know how you'd think that, if you watched the show they featured in. They made specific references to it having an ungodly amount of firepower to it in the show. Again, the thing basically took the approach the Defiant had.
It was a converted ship meant to to wage war. And it showed. The thing had a nasty armament. And if that isn't enough for you, they had and showed it firing the very same torpedoes that capital ships like the Galaxy have on them. They wrecked quite a few ships when they were shown on-screen.
You know what the fighters in the show were? They were a cost and time efficient way to get men and women up into space outside of huge ships, with something that could do a lot of damage.
Hence, somewhat expendable ships being developed by someone at Starfleet that weren't crewed by hundreds of people. One person dying because some ship decided to ram them after they were badly damaged is a lot better then them losing a Galaxy class ship with all hands on board. Which, by the way, they showed a Galaxy ship in DS9 dying in the exact same manner I just described.
Sure, they might die, but the whole point of the entire main arc of the show was that the Dominion was going to zerg the Federation to death if they got the chance, and they needed a way to counter their manpower.
By the way. Guess what situation Starfleet is in in-game now?
Again. Read up on my posts. Also, on a side note, you quoted the same post twice. One to give a bunch of one liners, and now this.
If you had been paying attention to STO's development, you'd realize it incorporates a ton of EU and soft canon stuff. They do not have to, and will not go just by what is seen on a TV screen. That would be stupid.
Do you seriously think a CGI designer back during DS9 actually stopped one day and thought to himself "Gee, I should add in a scene of this obviously over-armed fighter docking, so as to resolve incredibly anal arguments between nerds in the future?". Or do you think he was interested in making cool scenes where starships blew each other up to make sure he didn't get fired and the show didn't get canceled for being boring to most people?
Starfleet does counter military advantages. See, everything they do to counter the Romulans messing with them in TNG. You also don't seem to understand just why a carrier ship is so neat for just about any organization. You don't have to use it to send stuff out to blow other, presumably hostile, stuff up. You can use it for search and rescue, to deliver aid, to encompass a wider area of a given location then one ship or person could ever hope to achieve.
Carriers are not just about putting as much "dakka" out there as possible. They are about force projection. They can get something somewhere, and back to safety again more reliably then any plane or vehicle could hope if it had to try and make the journey itself.
Do you think certain non-military organizations sometimes have, or would like to have ships or other means of transportation that can field other means of transportation just because they want to blow stuff up? Because they're really hankering for an urge to engage in a destructo-derby with other vehicles, and they just can't wait to get back home? I mean, seriously?
And you're seriously telling me that Starfleet wouldn't want a highly adaptable ship (All you have to do is switch out what kind of ships it has in it! Brilliant!) that could do the duties of five, or even ten ships, in certain research, diplomatic, rescue, or other similar situations?
Or that if they had such ships, they might not eventually go "Hey, looks like the KDF caught on to that whole "force projection" concept before we did. Maybe we should work out a counter? Wait, no, i'm sure that we, THE FEDERATION could never counter the potential loss of pilots with decently designed technology or tactics."?
I mean, never mind that they were throwing fighter ships into a literal starship comprised meatgrinder in DS9. Nevermind that you don't seem to understand what the concept of force projection is. Or how it would apply in this setting. Never mind that it's a really common sense thing for many groups that do search and rescue or aid operations in real life. Let's just ignore the fact that they actually made a Star Trek game about this theoretical ship in the past. And it featured characters doing these exact same aid and search and rescue missions in a few missions, to remind people that it wasn't just a generic space shooter and was a Star Trek game.
Any build and ship can be a turret spammer. Some can do it really well, in fact.
You don't seem to understand, however, that not every ship can strip the shields off of things with tetryon blasts from a full grouping of turrets, so the dozen fighters lining up for a strike against it off to the side can spam photon torpedoes at a rate no cap ship can on the empty facing for massive damage while the Vo'Quv tractors the ship in place.
This is very different from just a generic tank n' turret ship, since your method of play has to be very different, your means of survival is very different, and your tactics on how to quickly kill things are very different. You are not playing a cruiser. You are playing a heavily armed, only somewhat moderately defensible command ship. You're making a ton of assumptions here.
Also, the given skill of a group of people playing a ship type has absolutely no bearing on this argument. Not everyone can play an escort in such a way that it can pop STF cubes in 10 to 30 seconds. Not everyone can build a cruiser so that it can take shots from a STF Tac Cube. Assuming you actually seriously meant that to be relevant, this is basically you ignoring part of the realities of the game to try and make a point that has nothing to do with this discussion.
Given that post, I actually kind of wonder if you've ever played a proper turret carrier now. You seem to be thinking of it as a traditional tank and spank ship focused around AOE and rapid fire attacks, when that's just step one to do what you need to do to optimize yourself.
Those pets cost real life money or are very difficult to obtain. On top of all of that they are not available in the quantities that normal carriers are. Don't forget that they don't do the same damage, don't have the same health, or even have the AI a proper carrier escort has. They're a trinket that anyone, even people who pilot a carrier can use. Not a core gameplay feature.
You're making another false equivalence argument here.
Also:
I never said that the KDF shouldn't get a science vessel. I was pointing out that you were very naive to think that one faction was going to get a set of ships that filled the role that the opposite faction had exclusivity on at one point, and then never expected the same thing to happen for the Feds for the KDF mirror.
Also, again, on paper doesn't matter. Guess what? The TV shows are not the only source. In fact, aside from the initial world-building, they play a very small part in the game, if you pay attention. You can see a ton of legacy characters hanging around the game world. Never mind characters and events, sometimes altered, from the novels.
Yeah I agree, KDF needs pretty much its own content team really.
That's the only way it's going to get solved.
Cryptic said they were going to turn KDF into a full fledge side, and they should stick to their word.
It might even tone down the bad blood between FED/KDF players.
I can understand how KDF players feel.
It's like having a younger brother who gets all the toys, you start feeling resentment for them even though it's not your brothers fault. It's your parents.
Yes, this means that I would play my Klingon toon less if there was a Federation carrier or at least flight deck cruiser. But that would increase my enjoyment with the game, that's for sure - which has nothing to do with a claimed "lack of content" on the KDF side (there is not really one, if you want missions, take the few hundreds the Foundry has to offer), but simply with personal preferences on who I want to identify with.
I got a bunch of turrets free for doin DOFF missions and my Scorpion fighters came free for doing the Romulan FEs, which are far easier than STFs. So I cannot begin to understand where you got this statement.
Turrets had nothing to do with what I posted. Read what I posted again.
In order to get scorpion fighters you need to run a shuttle FE. In order to get peregrine fighters you need to pay money and hope that the lockbox you open has them out of the many, many items it could give you. The peregrine fighter is on a timer and has a number of charges to it. The scorpion fighters are very weak offensively and defensively, and have charges too.
Neither scorpion fighters or peregrine fighters have the capabilities or usefulness of actual carrier pets. As I explained in the post that you quoted.
Scorpion fighters, specifically, are a damage trinket on a fairly long timer that summons highly expendable mobs. Also, they do not, unless stated, stack with carrier pet counts. So unless they fixed that in the past few months, you could field them with carrier pets too. So I fail to see how exactly you don't see what i'm saying.
Either you didn't even read my posts, or you are trolling very hard. Either way, I don't see why I should waste my time talking to someone who ignores everything I say, jumps around posts to try and confuse the discussion, ignores every other thing I mention, admitted to being heavily biased about the subject at hand, and comes up with some sort of double-speak/think method of trying to counter what he does actually reply too.
Carriers are going in for the Fed side. If you had been paying attention, you would have known to expect it given past changes and the history of the setting and the game. No amount of complaining, claiming that Federation players are "entitled", or ignoring the facts (That I posted a good deal of in another post that you completely ignored!) changes what is going to happen. If you didn't see this coming then that's your own fault. No one else's. Deal with it.
Edit:
PS: I have mains on both factions. I've mentioned this to you several times now. You seem to assume I am trying to gun for an "edge" or unique toy when I am not. I desire no edge or unique toys in the game, because I already have a carrier on my KDF main. My mains have, between them, already earned literally everything there is to earn in the game outside of some (very time consuming) DOFF chain rewards. So no, this is not about personal bias on my part.
If Cryptic was going to hand out Fed side exclusives to the opposite faction, then the same should be done for the KDF side mirror. That is what is happening. Just to say it for a third/fourth time, this is not "entitlement". This is not "bias". This is me expecting the company to act in a competent and responsible manner when it comes to developing their products.
You are a part of a very vocal minority. When I post on here, I am part of a very vocal minority. Were a whole set of carriers added in tomorrow, the vast majority of the game would probably have reactions ranging from "Huh, that's neat, I guess" to "HOLY TRIBBLE THAT'S AWESOME! *Spends $.*". The forums would flip out and rage about it, as they do with every other feature that goes in the game, and as the STF changes just showed, most would, at worst, grumble about it and add another tally to their things that irritate them about the game.
If that tally gets too high, then you should start worrying. But carriers are not going to be the thing that causes the game to self destruct.
As for the "82" percent", setting aside that you have no way of knowing who plays what side, and what the cross over is, this isn't about TRIBBLE over one group of people. It isn't about someone thumbing their nose at someone else. It's about developing the game and making sure it isn't a broken mess. Quit assuming malice where incompetence, opportunism, or, rarely, genuine attempts at doing the right thing by the player base are much more fitting.