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Discovery: Confused about writer intent and fan reception of Mirror G
faxmachine
Member Posts: 120 Arc User
in Ten Forward
Let me start by saying I absolutely understand the love for the real life actres, Michelle Yeoh. That said, Mirror G is literally space hitler. She is the hardest core of hard core fascists, and the complete opposite of everything woke. And yet, it seems the writers are trying to make her a likable character? And a decent amount of fans actually do like her character? How are either of these things possible?
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I imagine all well-written villains have someone who likes them, even if people don't always agree who belongs to the group of well-written. It doesn't mean agreeing with the characters' actions!
But - this is Star Trek. If a villain has a chance for redemption, this is the franchise to do it, doesn't it? Klingons used to be murderous deceitful and warmongering imperialists, and now they're the Federation's best ally.
The writing of S1 DIS was very over the top. Mirror Georgiou was saved because Burnham had this silly guilt-complex.
Realistically, the former EMPRESS of the Terran Empire herself is unlikely to do a 180 and become an actual "good guy". But despite being Fascist and Cartoon-Overlord-Evil, she is not stupid and knows that for now her best bet is gaining everybody's trust. If she just outright started a coup or something stupid like that, she'd just die a pointless death.
Giving her a post at S31 is a huge mistake IMO. It Benefits Starfleet the same way Khan was beneficial for Marcus in STID. Meaning, it's a very temporary alliance that will kill you later.
Season 2 also did not outright paint her as a good character. She was still threatening at some Points and merely ended up helping the good guys fighting an admittedly bigger threat. Can't take over a universe that's vanquished.
"In normal times evil would be fought by good, but in times like this it should be fought by another kind of evil."
Riddick is really just silly action, but this quote has actual merit. In reality you can't defeat cruelty with love.
> I was definitely more a fan of the original Georgiou an I am very skeptical about her development and the Section 31 show.
>
> But - this is Star Trek. If a villain has a chance for redemption, this is the franchise to do it, doesn't it? Klingons used to be murderous deceitful and warmongering imperialists, and now they're the Federation's best ally.
Oh yes, great allies always throw tantrums and break off the alliance when the other party dares ask them for actual evidence when they invoke the mutual defense clause. /sarcasm
The Khitomer Accords were a mistake. The Federation would have been better off making an alliance with the Romulans during the movie period when they were relatively friendly.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
hence "relatively" friendly. The dialogue from TUD heavily implies that only a select few represantives of each involved Government/Military participated in the conspiracy.
We don't actually know what the romulans do in the movie-era. On TOS they gave up on attacking the federation outright after BoT, fiercely defended the neutral zone when we see them again.
Perhaps they stood neutral, perhaps they were responsible for trading convoys going missing somewhere. We can't tell. We also never learned what the Tomed-incident actually was.
The female Romulan commander told Spock that they were a poor people and implied that they could not afford to take things head on the way the Federation and the Klingon empire does. If that is the case it makes sense that they rely heavily on espionage since, expensive as it is, it is still much more affordable than a war.
Also, in Balance of Terror the Romulans were surprised by the size, speed, and power of the Enterprise, though they were not exactly flabbergasted either. The first implies that their intelligence is spotty and possibly not very up to date, and the second that what they do have is unreliable enough that surprises like that are not exactly unknown and at times gets dismissed as fanciful rumors. Most of it is probably second or third party sourced, a good candidate for that would be the Orions.
One interesting point is that the female Romulan commander used an obsolete Federation MARS (with the gooseneck removed) display on her desk which means they were getting at least some hardware (or plans for the same) out of the Federation somehow though it may be via the Orions or even the Klingons (she was flying a D7 variant and it may have come with the ship) and is probably not that new.
All in all, it implies that the Federation was not exactly an open book to them even though they may have had a small handful of actual Romulan agents there (it could be that they were very limited in what they could find out and or communicate across the neutral zone).
By the time of TNG though all bets are off, the hint of spreading corruption seen in TOS having overwhelmed the traditional values by then, or at least it has at the government level (Dr. Telek R'Mor and a few others in TNG show that the corruption is not shared by everyone).
The situation is totally different for mirror Georgiou, she is so far only acting to further her own interests and indulge in pet peeves, which at this point parallels Starfleet's interests. If she actually "turns good" in some limited way it would have to be a personal reason, perhaps something having to do with Burnham since they seem to be linked across timelines in some way.
Yes, exactly those Romulans. The ones who were also quite cordial and a very big help in the previous film.
Why do you think they did that?
Because a three-way balance of power serves everybody's interests better.
One, with three mutually antagonistic superpowers in play, none can attack any of the others without worrying that the third might join in. The Khitomer Accords reduces that power balance to an alliance between two superpowers, leaving the third out in the cold and outnumbered.
It's perfect mnhei'sahe. You're supposed to be thinking of your own interests first and foremost, but if you're competent about it your actions will also help the other interested parties.
Two, the historical antagonism between the Romulans and the Klingons is a much more personal thing than either people's national rivalry with the Federation. But look now: from a certain point of view, the Federation, a government which prides itself on non-interference and national self-determination to such an extent that captains are sometimes willing to let entire species die rather than affect their "natural evolution", has picked a side in a foreign dispute that doesn't directly concern them.
It's a very good bet that the Khitomer Accords are wholly responsible for the cooling in Federation-Romulan relations that has apparently taken place by TNG.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
My character Tsin'xing
Personally I'd say a good villain is someone that acts in a way that you could understand why they see themselves as the "hero" or at the very least a "necessery evil", even if you don't personally agree with them.
A good well rounded villain has motivation that's something else then "do evil" as they won't see themselves as the villain of the story. That's what makes them intresting, since trying to fullfill that motivation they have might not always lead to the most obvious of actions, while "evil for evil's sake" villains are predictble as clockwork since they'll always without a flaw go for the "most evil" action possible.
Also one must remember that "I understand someone's motivation" isn't the same as "agree with someone's motivation".
I believe back then they were concerned about what a potential coalition between various species could mean for the future of the Empire. If the Andorians (a more warlike species), the Vulcans (a rather advanced species), the Tellarites (a rather stubborn species), and these upstart Humans (a wildcard species) join together... that could limit the Empire's ability to expand, and potentially threaten the Empire as a whole.
And they were right. The Coalition evolved into the United Federation of Planets after the end of the Earth-Romulan War, and basically blocked the Empire from expanding in that direction. In an attempt to stop something they feared, they CREATED the very thing they feared.
Remember, in TOS the only wealth that really mattered was Dilithium crystals (which makes sense, despite current hype energy is the true basis for any modern industrial nation's economy) and the Romulans went to what Geordie thought of as almost insane lengths to power their ships in some other way (the singularity cores), something people usually do not do if they have a safer alternative readily available.
And a poor nation can buy ships from other powers if the price is right. The way the very brief Klingo-Romulan alliance happened strongly suggests it was all about the Klingons wanting Romulan cloaking tech and the Romulans wanting warp drive tech to adapt for their own use, not that it was a real co-defense pact or anything. And if the Klingons really wanted that tech they would have made sure the price was right.
Also, like the Enterprise in Kelvin, the D7 in DSC seems to have come out later than it did originally. On top of that, there is no guarantee that the Stormbirds (or whatever you prefer to call them) were re-built D7s rather than D6's. While the D6/D7 identification thing started out as a prank to pull on Roddenberry, the writers took it to heart and eventually there would have been ships identified as "D6" if the series had gone on since it was only a paint difference (the placement of the shuttle doors and a few other minor things), which was too good a thing for the budget to pass up for long. In fact, the "scout" ships that used the D7 model but that Enterprise took out easily could very well have been those D6s (which would also explain why the Romulans fielded them in threes instead of alone).
As for the ENT stuff, it was exactly the kind of trickery a resource poor people are likely to use instead of trying overwhelming force that they simply cannot afford to build and field. Their unusual tech did not come from outspending everyone else in research, it came from focusing their efforts in unexpected out-of-the-box directions instead of the usual things like warp cores.
And mimicking weapons systems does not necessarily mean they have to actually have to change how the weapon works, it could be done by playing games with the sensors of any observers, and that is the kind of things the Romulan technology was especially good for. DSC is the only "prime" Trek series to use transparent windows on the bridge, and even if someone happened to be looking out a window at a battle the typical engagement ranges in those series would ensure there was nothing much to see.
That was undoubtedly the reason for all of the "death before capture" and scorched earth policies in the war, they could not risk the proto-Federation capturing people or equipment and realizing just how precarious the Romulan position really was. It is probably also why they would jump at the neutral zone idea.
Also, as for the other matter, while Diane Duane's Rihannsu stuff is non-canon because it is a third party novel, she wanted to get the Romulans right so she went to and consulted extensively with D.C. Fontana, the person who was in charge of making sure the major aliens were portrayed right in the scripts for TOS. While the plots are completely Duane's, she built the Rihannsu on a solid foundation of inside information and had the series gone on for a fourth (or even fifth) season the Romulans would have been reasonably close to how Duane portrays them.
Therein lies the interesting part for me. I already can reasonably guess she's going to do them a dirty turn. But when and how?
And you think I wrote crazy stuff? Lol.
Seriously, the canon thing has been done to death but at the end of the day DSC is no higher canon than any of the other series and its points of inconsistency do not carry any more weight than the others do. If you want to hang on like a bulldog to the "DSC is the ultimate prime and surpasses all other canon" line of thinking go right ahead, I am not interested in another endless rehash of the canon wars at the moment.
Personally, when there is a conflict I tend to go with whatever fits the smoothest rather than trying to always hammer the squarest possible peg into a round hole in established history just because it is supposed to be the "latest greatest" thing, but it is not a biggie to me either way.
As for the D7s (or possibly D6s) the Romulans were using, going by the vocal tones and body language, Kirk and company found them to be older, or at least inferior, ships compared to the stuff the Klingons were fielding at the time. It is not even a real point of conflict anyway since the Stormbirds could very well be D6s rather than D7s, and ENT even showed a class that looked like the K'tinga of the 2270s. For all that canon sources show us, the Stormbirds could very well have been those old battlecruisers seen in the ENT episode "Unexpected" rather than the D7s used by the Klingons in the 2260s.
And yes, the D6 name was part of a joke played on Roddenberry to get him to loosen up, but then again so was the D7 designation (it was not until DS9 that anyone actually used the D7 designation in canon material though the production people started using it in internal memos during TOS, the plastic model boxes were labeled with it, and it had become "fanon" at least by the early '70s).
"Credits" are currency, not wealth. There actually is a difference, modern currency is just a tradeable (and often abstracted) claim to the wealth that backs it, and in the case of the Federation that wealth is dilithium and the energy it makes available. It was their equivalent of Avatar's "unobtainium".
There is nothing in TOS that indicates that any other standard was in use by the three competing nations, not one single mention of "latinum" anywhere before DS9. In fact, in the Mirror universe where the Terran empire and then the Alliance imposed their own currencies and did away with the local ones Mirror Quark does not even accept latinum as currency.
As for Kivas Fasho, that story was set in the 24th century, and at least in theory Scotty's recrystallization process would make a serious dent in the demand for dilithium crystals, and therefore their commercial value. Also, he was a collector, so dilithium might not have interested him any more than coal or crude oil would interest today's collectors.
The drone's weapons could have had very wide spectrum emitters or whatever then, other dialog in various series makes it clear that there is not as much difference between phasers and disruptors as some people think. And for that matter, it would be simple enough to carry a few different weapon types anyway, just like the "rainbow boat" in this game.
When comparing the Rihannsu with the TOS Romulans the only series that have any relevancy at all are TOS and TAS, and Fontana was highly involved with both. The Romulans of TNG and later were different by design since they were always supposed to fall into the morass of corruption you see hints of in BoT and end up like they were in TNG. Duane simply advanced the timeline a few years and changed the focus to see things from the Romulan side where the corruption was even more visible to Duane's protagonist Ael, which could be what makes you think them more like TNG.
this is very much true - whatever differences there are between phasers and disruptors, they obvious aren't substantial enough to prevent re-configuring one into the other, like korath did with that cardassian disruptor in Endgame where he modified it to fire nadion particles
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
To be fair... the original intent was not to reuse the K'Tinga model, but to use a new design meant for that episode. Time constraints and not quite getting the windows right ended up using an existing CG model of a ship that didn't belong in that time period.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/D4_class_(concept)
This was what that 22nd Century battlecruiser was supposed to be.
But apparently there was an issue with the windows. Namely... the producers wanted more of them even though they wouldn't be noticed, and scrapped the D4 and just used the K'Tinga model that was already finished despite the fact it was from 100 years later.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"