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Super-Earth discovered orbiting 40 Eridani A, Vulcan's sun

starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,796 Arc User
edited August 31 in Ten Forward
This news is almost a year old, but the Dharma Planet Survey discovered a rocky planet massing two Earth masses orbiting Keid, a.k.a. 40 Eridani A, a.k.a. Vulcan's canonical sun.

https://www.universetoday.com/140045/astronomers-find-planet-vulcan-40-eridani-a-right-where-star-trek-predicted-it/
VULCAN5.jpg
artist's impression

Despite the fact Keid is a K-class star, dimmer than Sol, the planet is probably too close to it to support life. Still pretty damn cool, though.
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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 33,200 Arc User
    why would you think it can't support life when it says right there in the article that it could well be host to an advanced civilization?​​
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  • snowwolf#0563 snowwolf Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    why would you think it can't support life when it says right there in the article that it could well be host to an advanced civilization?​​

    Very true. And it wouldn't be very difficult for a highly advanced civilization to hide themselves from our quite honestly primal and crude equipment.

    Just think about how.. Horrible Earth really is, we are still very primal. We have mass shootings, our planet is heavily divided.. I can pretty much imagine people from the universe look at us like described by Q in the first TNG episode.. Why would anyone from outer space visit us? What does humanity have to offer? Some weird artwork? Crude nuclear weapons? Frozzen fish sticks?

    Yeah.. We're violent, primal and have quite litteraly nothing to offer. So for an alien society it would be best to remain hidden from us.

    You just have to look back at human history to see how well we fair when we encounter a new set of people in a different place.

    There are a lot of steps humans need to take before any advanced civilization would even consider saying hello to us. lol.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,947 Arc User
    I think it is extremely laughable that we can define what planets will support life. We can only define what planets might support life similar to our own. After all, we have extremophiles like Tardigrades and the creatures at the bottom of the Marianis Trench. If we start exploring the universe instead of just our own solar system, then we will likely encounter life in the strangest of places not just on planets similar to our own.
    There are a lot of steps humans need to take before any advanced civilization would even consider saying hello to us. lol.

    That never stopped advanced alien races from 'saying hello' to the Kazon, Klingons, or Kzinti. Only if we are a protectorate under a Galactic Federation or have absolutely no benefit would advanced alien civilizations not 'say hello' to us.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 34,228 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    I think it is extremely laughable that we can define what planets will support life. We can only define what planets might support life similar to our own. After all, we have extremophiles like Tardigrades and the creatures at the bottom of the Marianis Trench. If we start exploring the universe instead of just our own solar system, then we will likely encounter life in the strangest of places not just on planets similar to our own.
    Yeah we can only guess as to what things light years away are really like.
    There are a lot of steps humans need to take before any advanced civilization would even consider saying hello to us. lol.
    That never stopped advanced alien races from 'saying hello' to the Kazon, Klingons, or Kzinti. Only if we are a protectorate under a Galactic Federation or have absolutely no benefit would advanced alien civilizations not 'say hello' to us.
    Yeah, a race like the Klingons wouldn't care. They'd be like "OOH new planet to conquer!" The idea that ALL aliens have this code of conduct that prohibits them from contacting us "primitive humans" is dumb.
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  • sennahcheribsennahcherib Member Posts: 2,310 Arc User
    we could be a food needed by an alien specie; and they may already be on their way. Michio kaku's idea. :p
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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 33,200 Arc User
    sci-fi nonsense not applicable in reality - there is nothing humans can provide that can't be gotten from something that DOESN'T fight back...or if it does, won't fight back with TRIBBLE like chemical, biological or nuclear weapons​​
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    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"

    "Beware of dog. Or possibly, enhanced, psycho-addicted, cybernetically-enhanced nightstalker death-dealing dog from hell."
    Passion and Serenity are one.
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    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.

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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,796 Arc User
    edited August 31
    why would you think it can't support life when it says right there in the article that it could well be host to an advanced civilization?​​

    Because the Wikipedia article says otherwise, as does Nature. "The planet has an orbit of 42 days, and lies considerably interior to the habitable zone, receiving 9 times more stellar flux than Earth, which is an even greater stellar flux amount than Mercury, the innermost planet in our solar system, on average receives from our Sun."

    The basic problem is, the laws of physics are universal and dictate how chemistry works. No other atom forms the kinds of complex molecules that carbon does, not even its heavier period-mates like silicon: the most silicon can do is long chains, not the benzene rings that are a regular part of organic chemistry. Similarly, there isn't any chemical that's as good a solvent as liquid water. And unless this thing has a really powerful magnetic field, it's going to end up with all the surface water blasted off by the star like Mars and Ceres did. Both of which are much further from Sol than Unofficially Vulcan is from Keid.

    So no, we can't say what extraterrestrial life is going to look like, but we can pretty well predict what basic chemistry it's going to use, and therefore what conditions it's going to need: liquid water, oxygen, carbon, and a source of energy. I would not be surprised if we do in fact discover life on Europa or Enceladus, from the moon being heated by tidal friction from the gas giant and shielded by its magnetic field. But I think the ship has sailed for most of the rest of the Sol system.
    Post edited by starswordc on
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
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  • sennahcheribsennahcherib Member Posts: 2,310 Arc User
    you know who is Michio Kaku? he is not sci-fi writer!!
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,647 Arc User
    you know who is Michio Kaku? he is not sci-fi writer!!

    Which explains why he said such a silly thing. Any SF writer worth their ink already knows that the odds that terrestrial chemistry would be sufficiently compatible with alien chemistry as to make us a food source are much more slim than the odds of, say, all the aliens dying of head colds.
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,796 Arc User
    edited August 31
    you know who is Michio Kaku? he is not sci-fi writer!!

    No, he's a professor of theoretical physics at NYU and a science writer. He also isn't mentioned anywhere on either of the two articles I posted, so I don't know why you're bringing him up.
    jonsills wrote: »
    you know who is Michio Kaku? he is not sci-fi writer!!

    Which explains why he said such a silly thing. Any SF writer worth their ink already knows that the odds that terrestrial chemistry would be sufficiently compatible with alien chemistry as to make us a food source are much more slim than the odds of, say, all the aliens dying of head colds.

    Heck, that isn't even true on Earth. The only reason humans can eat hot peppers is because we're too big for the capsaicin to outright kill us, like it does small mammals and fungus. They produce capsaicin because they're adapted to have their seeds spread by birds, who don't react to capsaicin and whose digestive tract won't destroy the seeds unlike mammals'.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 33,200 Arc User
    maybe in small doses, but shove enough of those multi-million scoville peppers down your gullet within a short period of time and it probably WILL kill you...if not directly, then from the resulting heart attack​​
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    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."

    How Game Devs SHOULD be interacted with:
    http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/157238832062/i-remember-your-52080-rule-and-it-was-an-awesome

    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"

    "Beware of dog. Or possibly, enhanced, psycho-addicted, cybernetically-enhanced nightstalker death-dealing dog from hell."
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.

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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,947 Arc User
    maybe in small doses, but shove enough of those multi-million scoville peppers down your gullet within a short period of time and it probably WILL kill you...if not directly, then from the resulting heart attack​​

    Maybe for the vast majority of humans. I am currently reading a superhero webcomic where one of the main protagonist's superhero abilities is shove a ton of multi-million scoville peppers down their gullet.
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 33,200 Arc User
    superheroes cheat​​
    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!

    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."

    How Game Devs SHOULD be interacted with:
    http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/157238832062/i-remember-your-52080-rule-and-it-was-an-awesome

    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"

    "Beware of dog. Or possibly, enhanced, psycho-addicted, cybernetically-enhanced nightstalker death-dealing dog from hell."
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.

    Stand with Star Trek: The Animated Series content for STO! #TASforSTO
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 734 Arc User
    The fact is that normal planets in the goldilocks zone are hard to detect, and in the case of the Keid system there is nothing in the detectible setup that would prevent a planet in the right position.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,647 Arc User
    I am kind of hoping that there's a better-located planet in the 40 Eridani system somewhere (maybe orbiting B or C?), because otherwise I'm left with trying to imagine how a large moon of this world could possibly orbit its primary in such a fashion that it's largely protected from the worst effects of A.

    But if we don't find an Earth-sized world anywhere in the system, I still wouldn't want to see this planet named Vulcan. I'd rather have them call it T'khut.
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,796 Arc User
    edited September 1
    > @jonsills said:
    > I am kind of hoping that there's a better-located planet in the 40 Eridani system somewhere (maybe orbiting B or C?), because otherwise I'm left with trying to imagine how a large moon of this world could possibly orbit its primary in such a fashion that it's largely protected from the worst effects of A.
    >
    > But if we don't find an Earth-sized world anywhere in the system, I still wouldn't want to see this planet named Vulcan. I'd rather have them call it T'khut.

    B and C probably can't support life-bearing planets according to my research. Anything orbiting B would have been sterilized when it turned into a white dwarf, and C is a flare star, prone to giving off massive radiation bursts at random times.

    No, if there's anything life-bearing at 40 Eri, it's probably orbiting A.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,947 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    > jonsills said:
    > I am kind of hoping that there's a better-located planet in the 40 Eridani system somewhere (maybe orbiting B or C?), because otherwise I'm left with trying to imagine how a large moon of this world could possibly orbit its primary in such a fashion that it's largely protected from the worst effects of A.
    >
    > But if we don't find an Earth-sized world anywhere in the system, I still wouldn't want to see this planet named Vulcan. I'd rather have them call it T'khut.

    B and C probably can't support life-bearing planets according to my research. Anything orbiting B would have been sterilized when it turned into a white dwarf, and C is a flare star, prone to giving off massive radiation bursts at random times.

    No, if there's anything life-bearing at 40 Eri, it's probably orbiting A.

    It is far more likely that life is orbiting around A, but if there is life orbiting around B or C, then it will change our understanding of life. We only have an extremely limited perspective about what types of life can occur. Then there is the possibility of aliens using their technology to survive around inhospitable stars. So until we go there or receive communication from Vulcans, then there is no way to know if there is life or what type of life is around those stars.
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,269 Arc User
    Just think about how.. Horrible Earth really is, we are still very primal. We have mass shootings, our planet is heavily divided.. I can pretty much imagine people from the universe look at us like described by Q in the first TNG episode.. Why would anyone from outer space visit us? What does humanity have to offer? Some weird artwork? Crude nuclear weapons? Frozzen fish sticks?

    Yeah.. We're violent, primal and have quite litteraly nothing to offer. So for an alien society it would be best to remain hidden from us.

    You just have to look back at human history to see how well we fair when we encounter a new set of people in a different place.

    There are a lot of steps humans need to take before any advanced civilization would even consider saying hello to us. lol.

    This is (ignorantly) assuming alien life would be "better than us". They may be worse. Much, much worse and come here to kill us all without a second thought. They also may take great interest in us. We simply do not know.

    As for the rest, that is also ignorant. The Earth is a breathtakingly beautiful place and there are truly exceptional people here. Yes, humanity is capable of and has done some horrible things. That does not take away from all the good it has done and continues to do. All depends on your perspective.

    We are either alone in the universe or we are not. Either answer is profound.

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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,647 Arc User
    Or the most horrifying possibility of all - we're not alone, but we are among the most advanced, fated to become an Elder Race. I for one don't want that kind of responsibility!
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,947 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    Or the most horrifying possibility of all - we're not alone, but we are among the most advanced, fated to become an Elder Race. I for one don't want that kind of responsibility!

    Doesn't that amount to the same as us being alone? If we are alone, then we would end up being like the aliens shown in The Chase from TNG. The only difference between being the only race and an Elder Race is if we are the only race, then our distant descendants would have to seed the universe with life so we are not alone.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,647 Arc User
    The nightmare scenario, for me, is that the universe is teeming with intelligent life, but we're one of the senior races. This carries with it an ethical responsibility to the junior races, to ensure that they make it through the Great Filter in one piece. (See, for example, the asari and salarians in Mass Effect, or the Lentili in David Brin's short "Sshhh...".)
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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 33,200 Arc User
    great! i can't wait to start teaching young aliens to despise and kill based on the color of their skin/fur/scales/whatever, their sexual preferences, their religion or their choice of hobby​​
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    How Game Devs SHOULD be interacted with:
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    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"

    "Beware of dog. Or possibly, enhanced, psycho-addicted, cybernetically-enhanced nightstalker death-dealing dog from hell."
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.

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  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 34,472 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    The nightmare scenario, for me, is that the universe is teeming with intelligent life, but we're one of the senior races. This carries with it an ethical responsibility to the junior races, to ensure that they make it through the Great Filter in one piece. (See, for example, the asari and salarians in Mass Effect, or the Lentili in David Brin's short "Sshhh...".)
    great! i can't wait to start teaching young aliens to despise and kill based on the color of their skin/fur/scales/whatever, their sexual preferences, their religion or their choice of hobby​​

    Welp, that's the universe completely doomed then. Doomed. Doomed!

    Or, as the late Leonard Nimoy put it:

    "I predict the future of this lowly human race,
    That having made a mess of Earth they'll move to outer space!
    Well, there goes the neighbourhood.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,647 Arc User
    great! i can't wait to start teaching young aliens to despise and kill based on the color of their skin/fur/scales/whatever, their sexual preferences, their religion or their choice of hobby​​
    If their psychology is that much like ours, they won't need any coaching. They'll handle that part themselves. (Hell, that might be what the Great Filter is - maybe most sapient species go through a period of stupid internecine warfare based on some trivial distinctions, and wipe themselves out before they can leave the homeworld.)
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,947 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    great! i can't wait to start teaching young aliens to despise and kill based on the color of their skin/fur/scales/whatever, their sexual preferences, their religion or their choice of hobby​​
    If their psychology is that much like ours, they won't need any coaching. They'll handle that part themselves. (Hell, that might be what the Great Filter is - maybe most sapient species go through a period of stupid internecine warfare based on some trivial distinctions, and wipe themselves out before they can leave the homeworld.)

    Maybe aliens taught us to kill others based on outward appearance, sexual preference, religion, etc. There is the Pandora' Box myth where there was no evil in the world until Pandora opened up the box. So it all depends on if you believe that myths having some truth to them or they are just fictional stories to make the world easier to understand.

  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 33,200 Arc User
    it was a jar, not a box​​
    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!

    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."

    How Game Devs SHOULD be interacted with:
    http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/157238832062/i-remember-your-52080-rule-and-it-was-an-awesome

    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"

    "Beware of dog. Or possibly, enhanced, psycho-addicted, cybernetically-enhanced nightstalker death-dealing dog from hell."
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.

    Stand with Star Trek: The Animated Series content for STO! #TASforSTO
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,796 Arc User
    edited September 4
    jonsills wrote: »
    Or the most horrifying possibility of all - we're not alone, but we are among the most advanced, fated to become an Elder Race. I for one don't want that kind of responsibility!

    Now you've got me reminiscing about sci-fi novels, though newer than your usual fare. In M.D. Cooper's The World at the Edge of Space (part of the Aeon 14 universe), former professional terraformer Finaeus Tomlinson remarks that terraforming SOP is to wipe out any native life just in case any native pathogens manage to cross the species barrier to humans. Though he also says they haven't found anything more intelligent than a cat in the six-plus thousand years they've been at it; they do apparently have an actual first-contact protocol on the books.
    jonsills wrote: »
    great! i can't wait to start teaching young aliens to despise and kill based on the color of their skin/fur/scales/whatever, their sexual preferences, their religion or their choice of hobby​​
    If their psychology is that much like ours, they won't need any coaching. They'll handle that part themselves. (Hell, that might be what the Great Filter is - maybe most sapient species go through a period of stupid internecine warfare based on some trivial distinctions, and wipe themselves out before they can leave the homeworld.)
    This is what Tanya Huff's Confederation of Valor series postulates: most species that become spacefarers are pacifist, at least to the extent of giving up war if not necessarily small-scale violence, because the ones that don't tend to wipe themselves out first.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,269 Arc User
    great! i can't wait to start teaching young aliens to despise and kill based on the color of their skin/fur/scales/whatever, their sexual preferences, their religion or their choice of hobby​​

    Once again, a very ignorant statement. You're ignorantly assuming this kind of thinking applies to all of humanity when it is more than abundantly clear it does not. How many countless lives were laid down in order to stop these kinds of things from happening?

    Humanity has accomplished so many fantastic things. It's truly a shame there are people out there who only focus on negativity. Speaks volumes about them.
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  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 7,614 Arc User
    oh oh...I wanna be an elder race that gets to bully around the younger ones with vague promises of wishes being granted. With great mysterious black ships.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,549 Arc User
    edited September 4
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    oh oh...I wanna be an elder race that gets to bully around the younger ones with vague promises of wishes being granted. With great mysterious black ships.

    I want to alter their genetic makeup or brain chemistry so that they always see us some kind of angels if I we're not in a space suite, and speak mysterious wisdoms to them.
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