Heaven (Sage) vs Hell (Demon)
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Devoted - Lost City
Posts: 3,634 Arc User
Read: This thread was created in 2009 back during a time where cultivation was a monumental decision for an archer. While gear has always been a large factor, it has become increasingly more important, so much that it overshadows a lot of other decisions a player makes. You were not able to change your cultivation and getting to 89 took a solid 3 months of excessive grinding (3% an hour on exp scrolls at 8x+). Clearly you don't want to pick a path on a simple coin toss.
I created this thread on an impulse while arguing cultivation with some guild members in guild chat which is a terrible medium for debate. Back in 2008-early 2009 there was little information an archer could find when it comes to making a decision so it basically came down to reading the skills and hoping the description is right, trying to make sense out of the my-en perfect world forums or being influenced purely by popularity. This is more than enough for some people but what I really wished for was an ability to have real opinions on the matter. The my-en forums did have some useful anecdotes but they were rare and hardly challenged by other posters.
This thread is basically an attempt at providing what many archers were missing if they wanted to actually make an informed decision on cultivation. The main post is my opinions on cultivation, heavily biased towards demon as that was my decision. There is also a ton of other opinions and arguments throughout the thread which are just as valuable. If you take the time to read some of them and digest the debates ultimately you will have your own opinion and that is the goal.
Unfortunately most of the thoughtful debates and opinions are based on PWI back in 2009 so some of the information isn't as relevant today in some aspects. Don't forget you can always help by contributing some updated discussion but try to steer clear of dead horses and don't just rehash the same arguments for the sake of clarity.
Enjoy,
devoted
Also, a lot of things may be confusing for newer players, I still had the habit of mixing my-en and pwi names when writing this guide (still a habit to this day) and there will be some inside jokes. Here is a quick run down.
- fury, vigor, spark. This is chi, a spark is 100 chi (the yellow bar)
- victor was a BM who socketed almost pure metal defense.
- yoshiki was a good cash shopping archer
- 8jun is rank 8
- bloodlust was an old guild.
- zhen is your ulti
I don't know how it happened but apparently a pre-requisite to being an archer on pwi is to be half or almost completely ****. Seriously archer seems to be a magnet for failures. Please stop, too many people have said that archers on this server are terrible. Here is a quick test to see if you qualify for this guide: What level is your poison arrow? If you didn't say 1 please keep reading. In this guide I'll attempt to save the class so many people fail with. I'll outline the basic ideas for pve and for pvp, list several telltale signs of failure and rant while I fly world quest. BTW if I ever finish this, it will be huge.
I'll start off with something that happened today that made me write this.
Heaven vs Hell
After being in a guild with several potential non-fail archer's and thoroughly discussing the pro's and con's to heaven and hell (it's a lie), I decided I need to somehow map out my arguments instead of conveying them with the shift button of justice in guild chat. Kay so, heaven sucks endgame, 9x and even before you hit 89 and I'm here to prove it.
Let me list some key arguments I've received from pro-heaven -- aka fail -- archers.
- Frost arrow is teh **** against heavies.
No it isn't ****. You have 3 god damn metal attacks for pvp already. That's almost more than a cleric. Use them. If you wanna throw 25 chi worth of minimal water damage at the opponent that's your prerogative. Seriously, you really wanna waste a quarter of a fury on a little amount of damage? You need the chi for much more useful things that will actually provide damage. You never used frost arrow pre-89 pvp and you won't now. (If you do use frost arrow in pvp please stop reading my guide, you'll taint it.) The only justifiable time you could ever use heaven frost arrow in pvp is against victor because he has more metal defense than physical defense.
- Take-Aim 1 shots everything, including wb's
Ah yeaaa heaven take aim is a nice skill, I'll admit it but it isn't justifiable to go heaven seeing as the hell version is just as nice. This skill is purely based on your epeen refinement level and comparing 400% to 500% isn't a huge culti changing decision because hell casts half a second faster which is just as nice as more damage. If you were to stop at 90 this skill might be enough to make the switch to the fail side BUT this skills real power comes later in the game (remember it's weapon damaged based) so hell fury > heaven take aim.
- Free 50 chi every minute
Yeah that ****s useful, to an extent. In my opinion archers aren't as vigor based as almost every other class. You can easily overcome this little advantage with fury pots. Pvp wise the only real vigor skills you would use are: triple spark, aim low, wings of grace. Notice how there isn't a huge vigor requirement to pvp as an archer. You can pvp extremely effectively without having to kite for 3 minutes building it.
- 90% damage mastery
With hh90:
Level 10 mastery: 5437-9094
Sage mastery: 5834-9759
Demon mastery: 5636-9427
Don't forget the 1% crit you get. Oh yeah you are an archer. You are pure dex for the crit rate (you are pure dex right?) this is how you do your damage. Crits. If archers didn't crit 5 times in 3 attacks they would be like warriors with bacon axes. That's right, you suck.
I'm sure there are more arguments people have presented but usually those are the first four. If they don't **** or even consider my points and are still on heaven's nuts then I tune them out after that.
Some reasons why hell **** heaven:
I guess I should divide this section into two categories. First I'll tell you why hell **** at 90 if you stop leveling (you're dumb) and I'll also tell you why hell **** at endgame with all skills seeing as heaven people think the heaven mastery appears in their inventory upon reaching level 89.
So you got to 90 and now you want a life AND want to be a factor? Too bad. Don't worry though, as long as you didn't choose heaven you still can sort of do something.
Aka hell fury. Seriously those two words are almost enough for you to snap out of your state of retardation to talk to mo zun (demon guide u nub) instead of the *** with the dress. You are shooting mini heaven take aim's at the speed of usain bolt. I killed yoshiki with it once when he was vit build. (in pvp war, not 1v1, you kidding me)
K so most 90 archers have: take aim, frost arrow, blazing arrow and heaven/hell fury. Take aim I discussed, blazing arrow can go away cause it only works for normal arrows (50% vs 60% isn't culti changing you pve'r) and frost arrow sucks.
So if you are deciding on stopping at 90 with only those 3 skill books readily available hell is still superior.
If you wanna get to real endgame and have several or all skills available read on.
-Quickshot
-Lightning Strike
-Sharptooth
-Stun
-Wingspan
-Wings of protection
-Barrage of arrows
-Thundershock
-Winged blessing
No, I didn't just list every skill archers have. I listed the ones in which hell is waaaay better than heaven. Looking at the list I really don't wanna explain each one because there are so many.
-Quickshot
Sage version has a 50% chance to gain 20 additional Chi.
Demon version has a 50% chance to increase attack rate by 30% for 6 seconds.
Holy **** robe classes, you have a 50% chance to die in under 6 seconds. (This is the biggest **** machine with 8jun)
-Lightning Strike
Sage version has a 25% chance to gain 20 additional Chi.
Demon version extends cooldown by 2 seconds, but will never miss.
Ok that cooldown sucks but it will never miss. In terms of endgame that 'will not miss' is important. Sure you won't miss wb's too often already but what about non **** warriors? That's right, those warriors you made fun of with their miss-miss-miss-zerk crit-miss damage now are more dex based. Prepare to miss on important shots. Also great against other archers.
-Sharptooth
Sage version always reduces maximum HP by 20%.
Demon version grants a 10% increase to critical hit for 15 seconds.
If you are even pondering heaven you must be a carebear. I'll leave it at that.
-Stun
Sage version increases stun duration to 4.5 seconds.
Demon version increases critical hit rate by 10% for 10 seconds.
Looks a lot like sharptooth. Good thing archers don't heavily rely on crits.
-Wingspan
Sage version has a 20% chance to gain 50 Chi.
Demon version casts a Level 5 Winged Shell on yourself upon a successful hit.
Well holy ****. To be honest I really never noticed this skill till the stupid forge put it in my inventory. It ****. With a 6 second cool down you can literally sit there tanking warriors and werebeasts unless they one shot you. The shield breaks after 1~3 hits and by then it's already done cooldown. This skill is so vital in group pvp you won't even know till you get it. Imagine a werebeast attacking you in group pvp. Use this skill every 6 seconds while standing still and you got a wb wasting his time while your party kills every other person because they don't have to kite the annoying thing. I only died once tanking a single person's damage because law zerk crit with dragon and hes got a +11 GX.
-Wings of protection
Sage version always increases evasion duration to 1 hour and speed increase duration to 15 minutes.
Demon version always increases evasion by 50% and speed by 20%.
I won't disclose my level of this skill for untold reasons (tldr im cheap) but the evasion boost this skill gives make it way better than an hour buff.
-Barrage of arrows
Sage version reduces damage taken during casting by 33%.
Demon version reduces the interval between attacks by 0.5 seconds.
This skill is much better than heaven because the only time you will be using it is in tw. When you open zhen you have bunch of blue **** which eerily look like arrows pointing at you saying: "STUN THIS FGT" You need to deal damage fast. Most people stun the zhenner so the 33% damage reduction can pz. Only time heaven is better is if you are facing bloodlust and they are continuously spamming their paralyze skills on your open zhen. DONT WORRY BLOODLUST ILL BE SURE NOT TO RUN WITH MY ZHEN OPEN.
-Thundershock
Sage version increases Metal resistance reduction to 25 seconds.
Demon version has a 10% chance to paralyze enemy for 10 seconds.
This is definitely a personal choice for me. I like hell better because if it does proc it will be against a heavy user (aka melee) so you either get 10 seconds of nuking or 10 seconds to kite. Sage is nice because this skill costs 30 chi but 15 seconds is enough as you will be spamming this skill against heavies.
-Winged blessing
Sage version always gives a 14 meter range increase.
Demon version increases accuracy by 10% on ranged targets.
Demon version increases critical hit rate by 1% on ranged targets.
This is annoying. 2m isn't anything. Stop arguing like it is. Basically I tell people this: get to 88, use the 88 bow, **** now. The 10% acc is great because it adds a lot and ofc the 1% crit doesn't need anymore explanation.
Opinions on PVP builds
I will only talk about 3 builds because even though I think there is only one proper build there are two other acceptable builds and any other build besides these 3 were never meant to be. The 3 builds are: pure, hybrid and vit.
First off all this part of the guide is geared more towards 90+ pvp. Really the builds work for every level but the stats I will show will mostly be 9x stats.
Pure Dex
Basically all my points for the pro's of this build are the con's for the other two builds so this might get redundant. First off let me clarify one thing that makes me rage: archer's str stats. Any proper archer build will require minimum strength, emphasis on the minimum. Not 2 more strength, exactly your level + 4. If you are 90 you better have 94 strength. If you get bonuses from your equipment restat it. This build is called pure for a reason. Actually you can probably get away with capping your str at 94 for hh90 till you need more for higher 9x gear. Put all that extra str into dex. Restat your int to 3 and if you are a high level and 1~2 dex away from another crit restat your vit.
I just remembered one thing. I need to emphasize this.
☆Helm of Archer Terribleness
No archer on this server should have this helmet. It is one of the first signs that you are doing something wrong. You aren't as fail with it at 95+ but when I see people with this at 8x it makes me raaaaaaage. Class participation time: What is the str requirement for that terrible helmet? Following the proper way to play an archer what level could it first be worn at? If you said 101 congrats you can subtract. That's right level 101 is the earliest you should wear this helmet. If you have it on now I'm sure you can sell it to another 7x archer who hasn't read this yet. Even better trade it for a lion spirit helm.
As you can see pure dex is very demanding and you really want to squeeze every single dex point possible that you can. This is because your dex is directly related to your crit rate. If you have played an archer into the 90's you will realize that we actually are terrible without crits. It's depressing trying to kill something when you can't get a crit in 10 shots. You won't kill anyone not terrible without critting. Not only does pure dex provide much more crit than other builds it also gives you more damage. Now let's think about that by throwing some numbers around.
Let's say a pure dex archer hits a cleric for 1.3k no crit.
Now let's say a hybrid archer hits the same cleric for 1k no crit.
Now add the crits:
Pure: 2.6k
Hybrid: 2k
Now the damage difference is even higher. Factor in that the hybrid has around 5% less crit that means if you even do crit as a non-pure, your damage will be even worse comparing both crits. Those numbers are purely made up and I'm sure that the damage difference is probably even more but it's just there to emphasize that the damage a pure does is tons more.
Vit build (3 dex 1 str 1 vit)
No no nooo please tell me how you can pvp with this build. At 90 you are sacrificing a huge chunk of your damage for 1k more hp. Sure that hp sounds nice but it isn't helping you do anything other than tank more damage. Are we in the werebeast forums? No. In pvp you are meant to kill things, not fly around tanking 4 people, you aren't pandora - you don't even have blink ffs. You are no good surviving 1000 more damage when you deal a terrible amount back. This build is absolutely terrible at any level of the game for both pvp and pve.
Hybrid Build (7 dex 2 str 1 vit)
I really wanna rename this build as 'I'm not bad enough to go pure vit - I'm worse.' I don't understand what people are trying to accomplish with this build. Do you want to tank? Do you want to do damage? These people seem to be stuck in the middle and quite frankly it's worse to not choose a side. Hybrid is basically gimping your damage for a not even noticeable amount of hp. Congrats you now crit less and do less damage but don't worry you get a whopping 500 more hp. You really are just hurting yourself not choosing a side because you still will have trouble killing people and lasting one poison dot longer wont help you kill things.
Ugh, writing sucks. I'll stop for now. I tried to make it not look like a giant wall of text but I failed. Ill add more later.
Please please please argue against all of my points. Talking with people is way better than writing a guide. If someone were to read this guide I'm sure they would learn a lot more from the points other people raise and the arguments people provide against said points.
Upcoming rants:
DOTS: Stick stop.
ARMOR: No danika, go away.
SOULSTONES: loljohnnieboy
Other stuff I forgot:
Don't flame in here. I want this to be actually referenced for people who have questions. Again, please provide your opinions and constructive critism as they help make this guide better.
changelog:
42709 - started qq on heaven/hell
42909 - qq'd about builds
72111 -
I created this thread on an impulse while arguing cultivation with some guild members in guild chat which is a terrible medium for debate. Back in 2008-early 2009 there was little information an archer could find when it comes to making a decision so it basically came down to reading the skills and hoping the description is right, trying to make sense out of the my-en perfect world forums or being influenced purely by popularity. This is more than enough for some people but what I really wished for was an ability to have real opinions on the matter. The my-en forums did have some useful anecdotes but they were rare and hardly challenged by other posters.
This thread is basically an attempt at providing what many archers were missing if they wanted to actually make an informed decision on cultivation. The main post is my opinions on cultivation, heavily biased towards demon as that was my decision. There is also a ton of other opinions and arguments throughout the thread which are just as valuable. If you take the time to read some of them and digest the debates ultimately you will have your own opinion and that is the goal.
Unfortunately most of the thoughtful debates and opinions are based on PWI back in 2009 so some of the information isn't as relevant today in some aspects. Don't forget you can always help by contributing some updated discussion but try to steer clear of dead horses and don't just rehash the same arguments for the sake of clarity.
Enjoy,
devoted
Also, a lot of things may be confusing for newer players, I still had the habit of mixing my-en and pwi names when writing this guide (still a habit to this day) and there will be some inside jokes. Here is a quick run down.
- fury, vigor, spark. This is chi, a spark is 100 chi (the yellow bar)
- victor was a BM who socketed almost pure metal defense.
- yoshiki was a good cash shopping archer
- 8jun is rank 8
- bloodlust was an old guild.
- zhen is your ulti
I don't know how it happened but apparently a pre-requisite to being an archer on pwi is to be half or almost completely ****. Seriously archer seems to be a magnet for failures. Please stop, too many people have said that archers on this server are terrible. Here is a quick test to see if you qualify for this guide: What level is your poison arrow? If you didn't say 1 please keep reading. In this guide I'll attempt to save the class so many people fail with. I'll outline the basic ideas for pve and for pvp, list several telltale signs of failure and rant while I fly world quest. BTW if I ever finish this, it will be huge.
I'll start off with something that happened today that made me write this.
Heaven vs Hell
After being in a guild with several potential non-fail archer's and thoroughly discussing the pro's and con's to heaven and hell (it's a lie), I decided I need to somehow map out my arguments instead of conveying them with the shift button of justice in guild chat. Kay so, heaven sucks endgame, 9x and even before you hit 89 and I'm here to prove it.
Let me list some key arguments I've received from pro-heaven -- aka fail -- archers.
- Frost arrow is teh **** against heavies.
No it isn't ****. You have 3 god damn metal attacks for pvp already. That's almost more than a cleric. Use them. If you wanna throw 25 chi worth of minimal water damage at the opponent that's your prerogative. Seriously, you really wanna waste a quarter of a fury on a little amount of damage? You need the chi for much more useful things that will actually provide damage. You never used frost arrow pre-89 pvp and you won't now. (If you do use frost arrow in pvp please stop reading my guide, you'll taint it.) The only justifiable time you could ever use heaven frost arrow in pvp is against victor because he has more metal defense than physical defense.
- Take-Aim 1 shots everything, including wb's
Ah yeaaa heaven take aim is a nice skill, I'll admit it but it isn't justifiable to go heaven seeing as the hell version is just as nice. This skill is purely based on your epeen refinement level and comparing 400% to 500% isn't a huge culti changing decision because hell casts half a second faster which is just as nice as more damage. If you were to stop at 90 this skill might be enough to make the switch to the fail side BUT this skills real power comes later in the game (remember it's weapon damaged based) so hell fury > heaven take aim.
- Free 50 chi every minute
Yeah that ****s useful, to an extent. In my opinion archers aren't as vigor based as almost every other class. You can easily overcome this little advantage with fury pots. Pvp wise the only real vigor skills you would use are: triple spark, aim low, wings of grace. Notice how there isn't a huge vigor requirement to pvp as an archer. You can pvp extremely effectively without having to kite for 3 minutes building it.
- 90% damage mastery
With hh90:
Level 10 mastery: 5437-9094
Sage mastery: 5834-9759
Demon mastery: 5636-9427
Don't forget the 1% crit you get. Oh yeah you are an archer. You are pure dex for the crit rate (you are pure dex right?) this is how you do your damage. Crits. If archers didn't crit 5 times in 3 attacks they would be like warriors with bacon axes. That's right, you suck.
I'm sure there are more arguments people have presented but usually those are the first four. If they don't **** or even consider my points and are still on heaven's nuts then I tune them out after that.
Some reasons why hell **** heaven:
I guess I should divide this section into two categories. First I'll tell you why hell **** at 90 if you stop leveling (you're dumb) and I'll also tell you why hell **** at endgame with all skills seeing as heaven people think the heaven mastery appears in their inventory upon reaching level 89.
So you got to 90 and now you want a life AND want to be a factor? Too bad. Don't worry though, as long as you didn't choose heaven you still can sort of do something.
Aka hell fury. Seriously those two words are almost enough for you to snap out of your state of retardation to talk to mo zun (demon guide u nub) instead of the *** with the dress. You are shooting mini heaven take aim's at the speed of usain bolt. I killed yoshiki with it once when he was vit build. (in pvp war, not 1v1, you kidding me)
K so most 90 archers have: take aim, frost arrow, blazing arrow and heaven/hell fury. Take aim I discussed, blazing arrow can go away cause it only works for normal arrows (50% vs 60% isn't culti changing you pve'r) and frost arrow sucks.
So if you are deciding on stopping at 90 with only those 3 skill books readily available hell is still superior.
If you wanna get to real endgame and have several or all skills available read on.
-Quickshot
-Lightning Strike
-Sharptooth
-Stun
-Wingspan
-Wings of protection
-Barrage of arrows
-Thundershock
-Winged blessing
No, I didn't just list every skill archers have. I listed the ones in which hell is waaaay better than heaven. Looking at the list I really don't wanna explain each one because there are so many.
-Quickshot
Sage version has a 50% chance to gain 20 additional Chi.
Demon version has a 50% chance to increase attack rate by 30% for 6 seconds.
Holy **** robe classes, you have a 50% chance to die in under 6 seconds. (This is the biggest **** machine with 8jun)
-Lightning Strike
Sage version has a 25% chance to gain 20 additional Chi.
Demon version extends cooldown by 2 seconds, but will never miss.
Ok that cooldown sucks but it will never miss. In terms of endgame that 'will not miss' is important. Sure you won't miss wb's too often already but what about non **** warriors? That's right, those warriors you made fun of with their miss-miss-miss-zerk crit-miss damage now are more dex based. Prepare to miss on important shots. Also great against other archers.
-Sharptooth
Sage version always reduces maximum HP by 20%.
Demon version grants a 10% increase to critical hit for 15 seconds.
If you are even pondering heaven you must be a carebear. I'll leave it at that.
-Stun
Sage version increases stun duration to 4.5 seconds.
Demon version increases critical hit rate by 10% for 10 seconds.
Looks a lot like sharptooth. Good thing archers don't heavily rely on crits.
-Wingspan
Sage version has a 20% chance to gain 50 Chi.
Demon version casts a Level 5 Winged Shell on yourself upon a successful hit.
Well holy ****. To be honest I really never noticed this skill till the stupid forge put it in my inventory. It ****. With a 6 second cool down you can literally sit there tanking warriors and werebeasts unless they one shot you. The shield breaks after 1~3 hits and by then it's already done cooldown. This skill is so vital in group pvp you won't even know till you get it. Imagine a werebeast attacking you in group pvp. Use this skill every 6 seconds while standing still and you got a wb wasting his time while your party kills every other person because they don't have to kite the annoying thing. I only died once tanking a single person's damage because law zerk crit with dragon and hes got a +11 GX.
-Wings of protection
Sage version always increases evasion duration to 1 hour and speed increase duration to 15 minutes.
Demon version always increases evasion by 50% and speed by 20%.
I won't disclose my level of this skill for untold reasons (tldr im cheap) but the evasion boost this skill gives make it way better than an hour buff.
-Barrage of arrows
Sage version reduces damage taken during casting by 33%.
Demon version reduces the interval between attacks by 0.5 seconds.
This skill is much better than heaven because the only time you will be using it is in tw. When you open zhen you have bunch of blue **** which eerily look like arrows pointing at you saying: "STUN THIS FGT" You need to deal damage fast. Most people stun the zhenner so the 33% damage reduction can pz. Only time heaven is better is if you are facing bloodlust and they are continuously spamming their paralyze skills on your open zhen. DONT WORRY BLOODLUST ILL BE SURE NOT TO RUN WITH MY ZHEN OPEN.
-Thundershock
Sage version increases Metal resistance reduction to 25 seconds.
Demon version has a 10% chance to paralyze enemy for 10 seconds.
This is definitely a personal choice for me. I like hell better because if it does proc it will be against a heavy user (aka melee) so you either get 10 seconds of nuking or 10 seconds to kite. Sage is nice because this skill costs 30 chi but 15 seconds is enough as you will be spamming this skill against heavies.
-Winged blessing
Sage version always gives a 14 meter range increase.
Demon version increases accuracy by 10% on ranged targets.
Demon version increases critical hit rate by 1% on ranged targets.
This is annoying. 2m isn't anything. Stop arguing like it is. Basically I tell people this: get to 88, use the 88 bow, **** now. The 10% acc is great because it adds a lot and ofc the 1% crit doesn't need anymore explanation.
Opinions on PVP builds
I will only talk about 3 builds because even though I think there is only one proper build there are two other acceptable builds and any other build besides these 3 were never meant to be. The 3 builds are: pure, hybrid and vit.
First off all this part of the guide is geared more towards 90+ pvp. Really the builds work for every level but the stats I will show will mostly be 9x stats.
Pure Dex
Basically all my points for the pro's of this build are the con's for the other two builds so this might get redundant. First off let me clarify one thing that makes me rage: archer's str stats. Any proper archer build will require minimum strength, emphasis on the minimum. Not 2 more strength, exactly your level + 4. If you are 90 you better have 94 strength. If you get bonuses from your equipment restat it. This build is called pure for a reason. Actually you can probably get away with capping your str at 94 for hh90 till you need more for higher 9x gear. Put all that extra str into dex. Restat your int to 3 and if you are a high level and 1~2 dex away from another crit restat your vit.
I just remembered one thing. I need to emphasize this.
☆Helm of Archer Terribleness
No archer on this server should have this helmet. It is one of the first signs that you are doing something wrong. You aren't as fail with it at 95+ but when I see people with this at 8x it makes me raaaaaaage. Class participation time: What is the str requirement for that terrible helmet? Following the proper way to play an archer what level could it first be worn at? If you said 101 congrats you can subtract. That's right level 101 is the earliest you should wear this helmet. If you have it on now I'm sure you can sell it to another 7x archer who hasn't read this yet. Even better trade it for a lion spirit helm.
As you can see pure dex is very demanding and you really want to squeeze every single dex point possible that you can. This is because your dex is directly related to your crit rate. If you have played an archer into the 90's you will realize that we actually are terrible without crits. It's depressing trying to kill something when you can't get a crit in 10 shots. You won't kill anyone not terrible without critting. Not only does pure dex provide much more crit than other builds it also gives you more damage. Now let's think about that by throwing some numbers around.
Let's say a pure dex archer hits a cleric for 1.3k no crit.
Now let's say a hybrid archer hits the same cleric for 1k no crit.
Now add the crits:
Pure: 2.6k
Hybrid: 2k
Now the damage difference is even higher. Factor in that the hybrid has around 5% less crit that means if you even do crit as a non-pure, your damage will be even worse comparing both crits. Those numbers are purely made up and I'm sure that the damage difference is probably even more but it's just there to emphasize that the damage a pure does is tons more.
Vit build (3 dex 1 str 1 vit)
No no nooo please tell me how you can pvp with this build. At 90 you are sacrificing a huge chunk of your damage for 1k more hp. Sure that hp sounds nice but it isn't helping you do anything other than tank more damage. Are we in the werebeast forums? No. In pvp you are meant to kill things, not fly around tanking 4 people, you aren't pandora - you don't even have blink ffs. You are no good surviving 1000 more damage when you deal a terrible amount back. This build is absolutely terrible at any level of the game for both pvp and pve.
Hybrid Build (7 dex 2 str 1 vit)
I really wanna rename this build as 'I'm not bad enough to go pure vit - I'm worse.' I don't understand what people are trying to accomplish with this build. Do you want to tank? Do you want to do damage? These people seem to be stuck in the middle and quite frankly it's worse to not choose a side. Hybrid is basically gimping your damage for a not even noticeable amount of hp. Congrats you now crit less and do less damage but don't worry you get a whopping 500 more hp. You really are just hurting yourself not choosing a side because you still will have trouble killing people and lasting one poison dot longer wont help you kill things.
Ugh, writing sucks. I'll stop for now. I tried to make it not look like a giant wall of text but I failed. Ill add more later.
Please please please argue against all of my points. Talking with people is way better than writing a guide. If someone were to read this guide I'm sure they would learn a lot more from the points other people raise and the arguments people provide against said points.
Upcoming rants:
DOTS: Stick stop.
ARMOR: No danika, go away.
SOULSTONES: loljohnnieboy
Other stuff I forgot:
Don't flame in here. I want this to be actually referenced for people who have questions. Again, please provide your opinions and constructive critism as they help make this guide better.
changelog:
42709 - started qq on heaven/hell
42909 - qq'd about builds
72111 -
Post edited by Devoted - Lost City on
0
Comments
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~edited~0
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From a carebear perspective I definitelly like demon spark for grinding. What's the point of having lots of chi as a sage if you don't have something cool to use it on?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Refining Simulator - aster.ohmydays.net/pw/refiningsimulator.html (don't use IE)
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I love it b:chuckleb:bye PW.
I'll still troll the forums >:D0 -
lol you said bacon axe.with bacon axes.
In actuality though, though your arguments are very plausible, theyre not really accomplishable to a point on our other servers; seeing as theres not many archer sage/demon skills avaliable to us on some servers (like ones from FB99, cube, etc, sanc isnt anywhere that far)
in any case, it should be a good standing point for all those idiot sage archers that are easy kills out there ;P0 -
how is that qq, missqq? stfugtfo .
devoted- good guide. includes many of the reasons why im going hell. thanks.0 -
I dont even think I ever saw a sage archer in heavens tear, but I agree whole heartedly demon path is the way to go.0
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Nice guide. Looking forward to seeing the next parts.
~Morgul[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I am free of all prejudices. I hate everyone equally...0 -
way to post this so late....FAIL0
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damn i feel like i just got yelled at, and liked it.0
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mmm it would be a nice guide and good argument but the word choice makes it fails.
the word choice makes it more like a QQ post than a real fully developed arguement. i already planed to go demon and still am, but well urg...anger mangement class plzb:bye
5/10 for bad languageb:laughMy body is made of swords.
Iron is my blood, and glass is my heart.
I have overcome countless battlefields undefeated,
Without once retreating,
Nor once being understood.
Always alone, intoxicated with victory on the hill of swords.
Therefore, there is no meaning to that life.
Perhaps this body is nothing but a sword itself.0 -
Watch archers play in Lost City.
Then type OWNAGE instead of QQ
EDIT: Oh ****, this thread is a piece of *censored* *censored* *censored*ing... *censored* *censored*
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*censored* *censored* *censored*ing... *censored* *censored*Position: Professional Forum Troll
Position Details: Be able to incite people to flames and perform miracles such as telling people what's right and what's wrong. Be able to dish out flames to other people so fire extinguishers are needed to put out the flames. Most of all, giving others a piece of reality.
ZephyrX is better than crack... he's your Anti-Drug0 -
Pro guide dev soooo many fail archers on lost city its not even funny.
A few things to mention:
Archers with Ling yun
Vit build Archers
Archers using the Dragonbow(90hh bow)
Str build archers
Archers using evasion stones
Archers using DoTs EVER
Also a good thing to bring up is archer damage at 9x. Many people seem to believe archers have some amazingly high damage when really our damage comes from our crits, we rely on them sooo much. A full buffed 9x does not die to an archer who doesnt crit no matter what their build/class. This is probably the main reason why hell>heaven as hell build on our main attributes CRIT evasion and acc.
Something to note envy and i checked out heaven/hell masteries with a +12 8jun bow and found heaven has 19.2k max hell has 18.5k max. So when u have 18,500 max pattack being heaven would give u 700 extra.
I now have hell zhen, sharptooth and deadly shot. Since you always get the crit buff when u use sharp whether u hit or miss it is as if i ALWAYS have 39% crit and 2-3 crits in a row pvp and pve is not uncommon.
EDIT: when this is finished it should be stickiedOfficial Guild History
Conqueror->kamisama0 -
lol what a load of **** all you was take a bunch of **** from ecatomb and put it here rofl, idiot, only idiots choose heaven over hell.0
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sage0nemage wrote: »lol what a load of **** all you was take a bunch of **** from ecatomb and put it here rofl, idiot, only idiots choose heaven over hell.
ad hominem argumentum.
fallacies.
prove it or gtfo loser.0 -
I agree with u 100%, though a quick note on Frost Arrow..
Its not good in PVP, but it is INDISPENSABLE in grinding.
Also, Quick shot is actually worth lvling? O_o Ive always ignored that skill. Im confused, now, SHOULD I MAX IT OUT?!0 -
I'm terrible, help me be better Devoted b:sadMeek with words, abrupt with arrows.0
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yes devoted please show us your awesomeness by copy/paste from ecatomb0
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Dunergo - Sanctuary wrote: »Also, Quick shot is actually worth lvling? O_o Ive always ignored that skill. Im confused, now, SHOULD I MAX IT OUT?!
you should max it when you're lvl 89 and go the demon path^^[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Logical arguements and backing them with facts: 10/10
Presentation (i.e. don't anger the only people you're really talking to): 0/10
Consideration of other builds (not everyone PvPs, if you only want to talk to PvPers, say so): 0/10
Consideration of all factors (wtf was with "Only consider the ones where Hell pwns"?): 0/10
Overall:10/40:25%
Mind you, I agree with both your arguements and your conclusion, but you fail at making guides.0 -
good guide xD0
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Sylvini - Heavens Tear wrote: »Logical arguements and backing them with facts: 10/10
Presentation (i.e. don't anger the only people you're really talking to): 0/10
Consideration of other builds (not everyone PvPs, if you only want to talk to PvPers, say so): 0/10
Consideration of all factors (wtf was with "Only consider the ones where Hell pwns"?): 0/10
Overall:10/40:25%
Mind you, I agree with both your arguements and your conclusion, but you fail at making guides.
1) Thank you
2) Guides are boring to read. I'd rather rant and keep it interesting than formulate proper sentences, it's my style. I gotta flame somehow.
3) This is basically 100% dedicated to lost city and harshlands and people who actually pvp on ht. I didn't really write it for pve'rs because I don't play on the pve server.
4) I didn't talk about the good skills from heaven because there aren't any. Notice how I asked people to provide arguements as to why heaven is better. I haven't received one yet. I'd rather this guide be the basis for people to argue against my points so that people who read this learn more from the arguments than the guide.
@the troll
Yeah I used the skill explanations from ecatomb.net lol. Should I make what each skill does up now? I used them and then explain why they are good. As for saying only idiots choose heaven, I'm trying to convert them. Go away now.
@chaotic
lol I got soo many things to add still. the heaven vs hell thing really took up a lot of time/space so don't worry I'll be sure to flame the ly wearing, metal on robe failures soon enough.0 -
I lol'ed at bacon axes.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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... People actualy even consider playing a Heaven archer on a PvP server? Either they're massochists or insane.0
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demon is the only way to go...probably one of the smartest in perfect world
yet the lowest of level0 -
... People actualy even consider playing a Heaven archer on a PvP server? Either they're massochists or insane.
or they want a class that pwns on just about anything in end game...except for bms with high dex...probably one of the smartest in perfect world
yet the lowest of level0 -
What's the point ? I don't like Hell, first cause I prefer Heaven, second because fairy is ugly, third just because I wanna do it and you'll have more rage.
I mean, if ppl want to go to heaven, why will you stop thems ? We do what we want.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Isnt the demon spark supposed to be more directed at melee characters though compared to sage which gives more matk than it does patk? Im able to easily kill sage archers, all it takes is a good stun and a flesh ream and weeeeee. Demons.. crits. I dont like getting critted
. 0 -
Devoted:
Fair enough, though you may want to specify this is for PvP when posting a general guide/flame on a non-server-specific forum (especially when you generalize to all PWI in the thread title). Other than that, you've basically provided a detailed explanation to one half of every Heaven/Hell guide on every class-forum I've ever seen: Hell pwns in PvP, Heaven usually Pwns in PvE.
One quick question, though. As I'm sure even PvP archers have to do their FBs, TTs, and bosses and such, do you find all that critical from the Hell path makes you more likely to steal aggro? If not, what lvl tanks do you take those bosses at? Do you only use regular attacks? Do you space even those attacks out more than normal? Do you avoid the high-critical skills (though some of those are passive bonuses)?
Tear: The effects of sparking vary depending on class. It would make no sense to give archers a bonus to magic attack, as they never use it. Even their magic damage spells are based off their physical attack, not magic. From Ecatomb, the difference for archers is:
Celestial Spark: Discharge three Spark to recover 20% of your maximum MP, acquire 700% extra physical attack from weapons for 15 seconds, and reduce all damage taken by 25%. Grants invinciblity for 3 seconds after the discharge.
Demon: Discharge three Spark to recover 20% of your maximum HP, add 500% weapon damage and increase attack speed by 25% for 15 seconds. Grants invinciblity for 3 seconds after the discharge.
Demon gives less of a damage boost, but gives an attack speed increase instead of damage reduction. Honestly, since all archers seem to say you only use skills in PvP (which aren't effected by attack speed), I'd go for Celestial being better for PvP on this one. Still, I doubt it's enough to outweigh all the Demon PvP advantages. For grinding (if anyone uses sparks for grinding), which is better entirely depends on how you play (if you ever get hit, the 25% dmg reduction is tempting, and the +200% weapon attack is always nice, while most archers prefer to not be hit at all, and may take the bonus to attack speed between their few grinding skills). For bosses, I'm honestly not sure which would be better. If you're tanking a low-lvl boss, that dmg reduction is tempting, but otherwise sparking at all seems like it would risk more aggro.0 -
@sylvini its been posted multiple ties the sage spark is 500% bonus like demon, ecatomb can be wrong sometimes0
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Sylvini - Heavens Tear wrote: »Devoted:
Fair enough, though you may want to specify this is for PvP when posting a general guide/flame on a non-server-specific forum (especially when you generalize to all PWI in the thread title). Other than that, you've basically provided a detailed explanation to one half of every Heaven/Hell guide on every class-forum I've ever seen: Hell pwns in PvP, Heaven usually Pwns in PvE.
One quick question, though. As I'm sure even PvP archers have to do their FBs, TTs, and bosses and such, do you find all that critical from the Hell path makes you more likely to steal aggro? If not, what lvl tanks do you take those bosses at? Do you only use regular attacks? Do you space even those attacks out more than normal? Do you avoid the high-critical skills (though some of those are passive bonuses)?
Tear: The effects of sparking vary depending on class. It would make no sense to give archers a bonus to magic attack, as they never use it. Even their magic damage spells are based off their physical attack, not magic. From Ecatomb, the difference for archers is:
Celestial Spark: Discharge three Spark to recover 20% of your maximum MP, acquire 700% extra physical attack from weapons for 15 seconds, and reduce all damage taken by 25%. Grants invinciblity for 3 seconds after the discharge.
Demon: Discharge three Spark to recover 20% of your maximum HP, add 500% weapon damage and increase attack speed by 25% for 15 seconds. Grants invinciblity for 3 seconds after the discharge.
Demon gives less of a damage boost, but gives an attack speed increase instead of damage reduction. Honestly, since all archers seem to say you only use skills in PvP (which aren't effected by attack speed), I'd go for Celestial being better for PvP on this one. Still, I doubt it's enough to outweigh all the Demon PvP advantages. For grinding (if anyone uses sparks for grinding), which is better entirely depends on how you play (if you ever get hit, the 25% dmg reduction is tempting, and the +200% weapon attack is always nice, while most archers prefer to not be hit at all, and may take the bonus to attack speed between their few grinding skills). For bosses, I'm honestly not sure which would be better. If you're tanking a low-lvl boss, that dmg reduction is tempting, but otherwise sparking at all seems like it would risk more aggro.
That is a typo both heaven and hell spark give 500% pattack. Most of the time in pvp vs robes/light u use normal shots so with the attack speed increase from hell u can easily drop 3-4+ robes/light targets before it runs out. Even in pve you can hell spark and drop 7+ mobs before it runs out jus turn shoot turn shoot. In hh/fb no archer uses skills on bosses just normal shots and fury is a big no. Sharptooth is the only heaven pve advantage as that extra 4% hp reduction can be quite special. In terms of normal mobs when u get to 89+ mobs at this point are not a problem its sooo ridiculously easy u destroy them no matter wat ur culti. Also of the skills gained at 89 hell frost gives chi which is much more effective in pve than any of the heaven skills in pveOfficial Guild History
Conqueror->kamisama0
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