c1k4ml3kc3: I don't understand what your point above is. Those screenshots with a fey would have resulted in slightly larger numbers, and also some very small numbers from the Feys small proc would have been added into that mess
From having no enchant slotted to slotting a vorpal or fey....how much INCREASE in damage do you think each does?
I do not understand what you're asking me. The "damage increase" depends upon how effectively you play during the game and depends upon what exactly you are playing against. I do not deal in "potential damage increase" options. That is not how I think when I play this video-game.
To answer your question - no, they wouldn't on a SpellStorm mage since Fey has its own ICD which works better on a MoF once the mobs are properly debuffed. Vorpal's use is instantaneous since it's already applied to a toon and doesn't have to calculate anything mob-wise. Those damage floaters wouldn't be higher on Fey ench in the given scenario.
Taking the damage potential from weak mobs is a no-brainer so fey that has 3 mobs at a time is not a good option. This is why the true potential of Fey is felt once you fight against the Bosses (and especially bosses who hit very hard) in combination to the buff/debuff ratio/value to which Fey's damage scales upon and also takes from
The only real viable option to use fey is because it gives a small boost to the basic damage (but not critical severity) and it works in correlation to other buff/debuff values. That's all there is to it. If you go dungeons, great, get a lot of debuff/buff options and Fey will wreck havoc. If you want to play alone and hunt in Chult hordes of enemies as a SpellStorm wizard, perhaps Fey isn't the best option.
I played with Fey, Dread and Vorpal and out of three used Vorpal was the best in AoE rotation on Steal Time and Sudden Storm combination with Full Rene/15feat Opp combo. Fey was the best on Tyrant battles, especially when in combination to DCs empowerment options and if some pally comes around on Thaum/OP combo. Dread was ok on dealing high encounter damage, but didn't do anything for feature. From a price-point ratio, Vorpal's the clear winner atm for a SpellStorm mage. For the rest of the Ad a couple of bonding runestones or black ice 13s.
Just so that you understand what I'm stating, I'm not stating Vorpal's the best possible allround ench (that is Fey atm), but it's not absolute HAMSTER either as people want to parade with it.
And just so that anyone else understands my point of view - Fey will give you the best "bang for the buck" if you run with pally's dcs and as a MoF. It works better the more debuff/buff options are available. However, it's debatable whether this will last since Aura of Courage might as well be nerfed in the upcoming patches or might lose some of it's potential, especially since it works so well in combination to the Fey enchantment.
It significantly outperforms and as such it might be tonned down similarly to how Lightning Enchantment was toned down, much to the MoFs QQ and dismay. It is a big trap to make a build that's working only on one possible feature that revolves around another person's class. Since I do not carry a pally around me when I go hunting in Omu or similar, I stick with Vorpal and it works very, very well.
Salute
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Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
c1k4ml3kc3: I don't understand what your point above is. Those screenshots with a fey would have resulted in slightly larger numbers, and also some very small numbers from the Feys small proc would have been added into that mess
From having no enchant slotted to slotting a vorpal or fey....how much INCREASE in damage do you think each does?
I do not understand what you're asking me. The "damage increase" depends upon how effectively you play during the game and depends upon what exactly you are playing against. I do not deal in "potential damage increase" options. That is not how I think when I play this video-game.
To answer your question - no, they wouldn't on a SpellStorm mage since Fey has its own ICD which works better on a MoF once the mobs are properly debuffed. Vorpal's use is instantaneous since it's already applied to a toon and doesn't have to calculate anything mob-wise. Those damage floaters wouldn't be higher on Fey ench in the given scenario.
Taking the damage potential from weak mobs is a no-brainer so fey that has 3 mobs at a time is not a good option. This is why the true potential of Fey is felt once you fight against the Bosses (and especially bosses who hit very hard) in combination to the buff/debuff ratio/value to which Fey's damage scales upon and also takes from
The only real viable option to use fey is because it gives a small boost to the basic damage (but not critical severity) and it works in correlation to other buff/debuff values. That's all there is to it. If you go dungeons, great, get a lot of debuff/buff options and Fey will wreck havoc. If you want to play alone and hunt in Chult hordes of enemies as a SpellStorm wizard, perhaps Fey isn't the best option.
I played with Fey, Dread and Vorpal and out of three used Vorpal was the best in AoE rotation on Steal Time and Sudden Storm combination with Full Rene/15feat Opp combo. Fey was the best on Tyrant battles, especially when in combination to DCs empowerment options and if some pally comes around on Thaum/OP combo. Dread was ok on dealing high encounter damage, but didn't do anything for feature. From a price-point ratio, Vorpal's the clear winner atm for a SpellStorm mage. For the rest of the Ad a couple of bonding runestones or black ice 13s.
Just so that you understand what I'm stating, I'm not stating Vorpal's the best possible allround ench (that is Fey atm), but it's not absolute HAMSTER either as people want to parade with it.
And just so that anyone else understands my point of view - Fey will give you the best "bang for the buck" if you run with pally's dcs and as a MoF. It works better the more debuff/buff options are available. However, it's debatable whether this will last since Aura of Courage might as well be nerfed in the upcoming patches or might lose some of it's potential, especially since it works so well in combination to the Fey enchantment.
It significantly outperforms and as such it might be tonned down similarly to how Lightning Enchantment was toned down, much to the MoFs QQ and dismay. It is a big trap to make a build that's working only on one possible feature that revolves around another person's class. Since I do not carry a pally around me when I go hunting in Omu or similar, I stick with Vorpal and it works very, very well.
Salute
If Fey buffs base damage, which it does, it is better than the Vorpal or Dread because you can raise Crit Sev by boon, potion, etc...Because you can raise crit sev above 100% without an enchantment, Fey become BiS.
Now if the devs lowered the base Crit Sev on our character to say 25%, now many players would take a damage loss due to lower crit sev. The question than become will the Vorpal or Dread be better than Fey if Crit Sev is lowered by 50% on our characters.
I know the devs are probably reading this and it would not surprise me if they actually lower our crit sev. It would not surprise me as they did want Vorpal and Dread to be BiS with other weapons enchantments as options for us. And this change is pretty straight forward.
For now though, Fey damage bonus makes it the best enchantment for all DPS classes on bosses. Vorpal or Dread are good for all DPS for clearing out adds and GWF should be using Lighting. Other good enchantments on bosses are Terror and Holy Avenger.
As for debuff the better enchantments are Dread, Frost, Terror, Bronzewood, etc...
Right now I use the Vorpal with a Fey in in my shared bank. I have it but I seriously cannot stand PINK on any of my characters. I know it is a visual but I really dislike the color pink on my weapons.
BiS on bosses, not BiS on mob clearing in single-player oriented content.
For instance Lightning is BiS for regular dungeon clearing.
Everything is "BiS" for something, depending upon the situation.
In the best possible party scenario with buff/debuff ratios Frost is BiS if nobody else is using it.
I do not see Fey as a better option for mob clearing on a SpellStorm CW, sorry. It's not fast enough in contrast to Vorpal that's instantaneous.
Let me put this way :
Fey's attack of StormSpell :
Vorpal's attack of StormSpell :
Point is that damage of a crit is supereffective. Disregard debuff effectiveness. Numbers are doubled in all instances since Vorpal affects the Feature.
Fey gives insignificant boost to the damage ratio of a StormSpell in such instances. Fey gives significant boost to the Aura of Courage which may outperform StormSpell by quite a margin.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
BiS on bosses, not BiS on mob clearing in single-player oriented content.
For instance Lightning is BiS for regular dungeon clearing.
Everything is "BiS" for something, depending upon the situation.
In the best possible party scenario with buff/debuff ratios Frost is BiS if nobody else is using it.
I do not see Fey as a better option for mob clearing on a SpellStorm CW, sorry. It's not fast enough in contrast to Vorpal that's instantaneous.
Let me put this way :
Fey's attack of StormSpell :
Vorpal's attack of StormSpell :
Point is that damage of a crit is supereffective. Disregard debuff effectiveness. Numbers are doubled in all instances since Vorpal affects the Feature.
Fey gives insignificant boost to the damage ratio of a StormSpell in such instances. Fey gives significant boost to the Aura of Courage which may outperform StormSpell by quite a margin.
I am not sure what you are trying to show posting act pictures with no context, without using fixed damage weapons, to try and prove a point which can be argued with maths alone. The critical damage formula is quite simple and can be found accompanied by a good explanation here. If you want accompanying act logs, I will use fixed damage weapons so the values are normalized.
On CW, you can quite reasonably reach 106.5% critical severity (wild storm, iwd critsev boon, tod critsev boon, squash soup) before counting vorpal and 49.5% combat advantage bonus (15 base, 15 attribute, 10 stat, 5 combatants, underdark boon). So, all you need to do is set the crit sev to add to 55% (for unpar vorp) and look at 156% critsev and you will find that if 100% of your damage can crit, then vorpal is a 21.4% dps increase. In contrast, fey would boost 20% of your dps. So the question remains, how much of your dps needs to be able to crit for vorpal to beat fey? Well, 1.20/1.214=0.98846787479, so 98.8846% of your dps must be able to crit for vorpal to win. This pretty much means if even 1% of your damage comes from something that cannot crit, Fey will win. This could be Assailing Force, Abyss of Chaos, or any number of random non critting procs and more importantly it means that even if 100% of your damage can crit without an OP, you are losing about 1% dps without them, to gain more than 4% with them and in my opinion that makes it a valid trade off.
Tl;Dr, Fey and vorp are really close and with an OP fey definitely wins.
I am not sure what you are trying to show posting act pictures with no context, without using fixed damage weapons, to try and prove a point which can be argued with maths alone.
Point is that Maths alone can't really prove it in regards to the factors revolving around speed of use, potential use, enemy count et cetera and the relation between Fey and Vorp are much more distinctive than a bare 1% of damage in general.
On CW, you can quite reasonably reach 106.5% critical severity (wild storm, iwd critsev boon, tod critsev boon, squash soup) before counting vorpal and 49.5% combat advantage bonus (15 base, 15 attribute, 10 stat, 5 combatants, underdark boon).
Except I'm not taking into account those things nor I take into the account playing with non-critting ability like assailant. I'm specifically talking only on the point of a Feature SpellStorm.
So, all you need to do is set the crit sev to add to 55% (for unpar vorp) and look at 156% critsev and you will find that if 100% of your damage can crit, then vorpal is a 21.4% dps increase. In contrast, fey would boost 20% of your dps. So the question remains, how much of your dps needs to be able to crit for vorpal to beat fey? Well, 1.20/1.214=0.98846787479, so 98.8846% of your dps must be able to crit for vorpal to win. This pretty much means if even 1% of your damage comes from something that cannot crit, Fey will win.
That only may be correct after Fey applies it's potential damage boost, since the boost is never 20% flat, but may be up to 20% of a boost and it needs to be applied prior to its full effectiveness. This is not the case with Vorpal which works instantaneously. Also needing to account the CA bonus which isn't applied right on-spot nor at all times. So, again, that's a lot of potentiality rather than actuality in terms of the math.
This could be Assailing Force, Abyss of Chaos, or any number of random non critting procs and more importantly it means that even if 100% of your damage can crit without an OP, you are losing about 1% dps without them, to gain more than 4% with them and in my opinion that makes it a valid trade off.
That's in its entirety a full-on potentiality instead of actuality and as I mentioned earlier, and I really do not see reason why it's unclear since I've written as such, I wrote specifically on the premise of Renegade CW with SS use and specifically on the StormSpell use.
Tl;Dr, Fey and vorp are really close and with an OP fey definitely wins.
I also wrote that.
So if anything's unclear I may answer properly if the question's being asked. However, forgive me perhaps coming as pedantic in this but you already confirmed what I already wrote :
Vorpal isn't as bad as people try to portray and can be very viable for SpellStorm builds for people who play solo.
To answer on behalf of the log I posted, just a simple comparison between Vorpal and Fey and how it affects SpellStorm. The difference is huge. Extra info really not needed since there's not much to it. Effectiveness is around 105-115 at all times. I also think it's pretty obvious regardless of the context and I do not think that it's necessary to use neutral grounds for damage potentiality since the difference is more than obvious. Everything else is pure semantics.
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I know the devs are probably reading this and it would not surprise me if they actually lower our crit sev. It would not surprise me as they did want Vorpal and Dread to be BiS with other weapons enchantments as options for us. And this change is pretty straight forward.
I do not think they will lower our base crit severity. The premise of a critical hit in D&D is that it will do more damage than a base hit (usually double, averaged over double dice rolls). Critical hits must still mean something to those that do not use Vorpal/Dread.
Feytouched only procs the damage buff/debuff with encounter powers.
What use is to use an encounter power to give a boost to something that already dies with the use of the first encounter power?
If I use Steal Time on enemies they are already dead in Omu.
Yeah the enchants are situational. Vorpal has its uses in certain instances, and for its price-point it's fairly good. Devs didn't want Vorpal or Dread to be knocked from the top of enchants, so they may return it to BiS in the future. For now though, I think those who want Unparalleled or Transcendent versions of enchants want to tackle the hardest content, rather than Omuan mobs, hence the careful dissection of which enchant is better overall.
Discussion of enchants is useful though, even if it is only to bring attention to Devs. There has been a wide swing in prices of enchants lately, of what is deemed BiS, so there is also that important aspect of establishing which enchantment is the best; a player does not want to invest a substantial amount into something which isn't, unless it works for them.
Point is that Maths alone can't really prove it in regards to the factors revolving around speed of use, potential use, enemy count et cetera and the relation between Fey and Vorp are much more distinctive than a bare 1% of damage in general.
Actually, it can. You can prove absolutely everything short of the existence of god with numbers and in a video game (which is just a universe governed by numbers) they are god. Furthermore, speed of use and enemy count are not even variables in the comparison.
Except I'm not taking into account those things nor I take into the account playing with non-critting ability like assailant. I'm specifically talking only on the point of a Feature SpellStorm.
There is more than just spellstorm as a variable when comparing the 2, unless 100% of your damage comes from spellstorm (which it doesn't) you should compare your global damage and not the damage of 1 feature. Furthermore, Storm Spell benefits from Fey (just as vorpal) so its a marginal difference between them if you compared on just the feature. This is an example on T.Fey (because im too lazy to copy a live version of my cw to show u.fey).
That only may be correct after Fey applies it's potential damage boost, since the boost is never 20% flat, but may be up to 20% of a boost and it needs to be applied prior to its full effectiveness. This is not the case with Vorpal which works instantaneously. Also needing to account the CA bonus which isn't applied right on-spot nor at all times. So, again, that's a lot of potentiality rather than actuality in terms of the math.
Fey applies the damage boost immediately after using an encounter and has 100% uptime provided you play an encounter (and not an at will) cw. In fact, if the ability that applies it happens to be an entity (example, conduit), then only the first hit of it will not benefit from Fey and all subsequent hits of it (and procs) will benefit from Fey. Fey is more "instantaneous" than vorpal since you will get the buff before your pet attacks the enemy where as you will only have 100% crit chance after your pet attacks the enemy which means some hits won't crit but only a single hit will not get the Fey buff. And as for CA, if you are playing in any semi competent group (or if you are renegade, which you admitted to being) it has 100% uptime.
Without Fey:
With Fey:
You can quite clearly see the moment the fey buff procs.
A quick dummy testing for a SOLO AoE SS RENE build
Unparalleled Feytouched 360K (even better than Trans. Fey that I spoke about previously)
Unparalleled Vorpal 830K
Around 400K difference on 10x Chilling cloud attacks.
No extra Crit severity bullcrap, buffs, debuffs etc.
Unpara vorp price? Unpara fey price?
Ridiculous to buy fey. for a solo player on a SpellStorm Rene build. I rest my case.
1) Once again, no fixed damage weapons. 2) The Fey buff did not even proc, because you are testing with at wills. 3) Since you are renegade, add 15% more critsev for phantasmal destruction.
Feytouched only procs the damage buff/debuff with encounter powers.
What use is to use an encounter power to give a boost to something that already dies with the use of the first encounter power?
If I use Steal Time on enemies they are already dead in Omu.
Thats nice but 1 shotting the trash mobs in omu should not be the metric used for someone when judging which enchant to buy (because even with no weapon enchants slotted you can do that) and rather the bosses in the hardest content (which do not die in a single hit for cws).
Actually, it can. You can prove absolutely everything short of the existence of god with numbers and in a video game (which is just a universe governed by numbers) they are god. Furthermore, speed of use and enemy count are not even variables in the comparison.
This is where I disagree due to several accounts among which are the topic of Actuality versus Probability. What you talk about is probability. In Actuality things are a bit different.
- Bugs - Types of enemies - Effective DPS - Managing distance - Using actual weapons that you will use in a fight, instead of fixed damage numbers which are not part of it. - Buffs
Those are all variables which exist and should be accounted for in real fights around Neverwinter instead of just Tong or Dummies.
There is more than just spellstorm as a variable when comparing the 2, unless 100% of your damage comes from spellstorm (which it doesn't) you should compare your global damage and not the damage of 1 feature. Furthermore, Storm Spell benefits from Fey (just as vorpal) so its a marginal difference between them if you compared on just the feature. This is an example on T.Fey (because im too lazy to copy a live version of my cw to show u.fey).
Conduit of Ice in my rotation is one of the weakest Encounters which I try to avoid due to how slowly it procs and how long the animation actually is. The spell is on TAB, however, but I find Chilling Cloud to do far more damage than Conduit ever would in any scenario of either RD or Omu hunts. The Proc ratio is also slow. Way slower than Steal Time and Sudden Storm. The only real viability comes from attacking stronger enemies, but even at that point it's more of a buzz damage than any real purpose for a Renegade CW. Also, as I wrote, I was referring specifically to SpellStorm. I am not comparing the overall damage on powers which do not crit nor am I trying to portray that using Vorpal is the best option for ALL SCENARIOS. As I wrote that role is Fey. weapon. I already Agree that Fey's the best overall enchantment, if you only took enough time to read. But not for AoE SS Rene whose primary gameplay is Omu hunt and solo play.
I really do not see what you're trying to prove, except all you managed to do is preach to a choir.
Fey applies the damage boost immediately after using an encounter and has 100% uptime provided you play an encounter (and not an at will) cw.
As a returnee I do not possess 10K+ recovery and as a Rene+Opp combo I do not use Thaum' speed options. So a good portion of damage will come from the Chilling Cloud. It actually does pretty well.
In fact, if the ability that applies it happens to be an entity (example, conduit), then only the first hit of it will not benefit from Fey and all subsequent hits of it (and procs) will benefit from Fey. Fey is more "instantaneous" than vorpal since you will get the buff before your pet attacks the enemy where as you will only have 100% crit chance after your pet attacks the enemy which means some hits won't crit but only a single hit will not get the Fey buff. And as for CA, if you are playing in any semi competent group (or if you are renegade, which you admitted to being) it has 100% uptime.
Again with "the group". No group Nada group! Solo! Also, that's debatable. As I wrote (my new catchphrase) I referred to StormSpell and Solo AoE oriented content. As such Fey can't catch up to Vorpal even if you do not have full on 100% critical chance.
1) Once again, no fixed damage weapons. 2) The Fey buff did not even proc, because you are testing with at wills. 3) Maths very easily proves what you are showing to be wrong. You can think whatever you like about maths but neverwinter is a universe governed by numbers and the critsev vs fey buff comparison is so basic even a monkey could do it, there are barely any variables involved.
The maths I've done show that I'm correct, actually.
1. Not needed since I don't play with fixed weapon damage numbers against dummies. I have more variables in my gameplay. I also have to chase enemies, observe which enemy to attack, which enemy takes more time to kill etc. Variables are important. 2. Exactly my point. It doesn't proc on At-Wills. 3. Yeah, yeah, you like math. I know. Don't worry, I'm not attacking math. The math is safe. Except that there're more variables to what you preach than what's shown and I clearly pointed out one of them where Fey pales in comparison. I can point out more of those.
This brings me to a next problem - Why reduce everything to BiS-only oriented content and calculate from that standpoint? There are ways to build a strong character without using the BiS-only stuff around. I've been an advocate for a long time now - Not everyone has the AD and time to build a BiS character so that their Weapon enchantment shines in comparison.
And my point is AD to damage ratio. If you get similar or closely similar performance of an enchantment for at least 50% less AD investment, why not use it? Unpara fey price atm? Unpara Vorp price atm?
That's actuality versus probability. Or practicality versus elitism.
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Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Feytouched only procs the damage buff/debuff with encounter powers.
What use is to use an encounter power to give a boost to something that already dies with the use of the first encounter power?
If I use Steal Time on enemies they are already dead in Omu.
Yeah the enchants are situational. Vorpal has its uses in certain instances, and for its price-point it's fairly good. Devs didn't want Vorpal or Dread to be knocked from the top of enchants, so they may return it to BiS in the future. For now though, I think those who want Unparalleled or Transcendent versions of enchants want to tackle the hardest content, rather than Omuan mobs, hence the careful dissection of which enchant is better overall.
Discussion of enchants is useful though, even if it is only to bring attention to Devs. There has been a wide swing in prices of enchants lately, of what is deemed BiS, so there is also that important aspect of establishing which enchantment is the best; a player does not want to invest a substantial amount into something which isn't, unless it works for them.
"Vorpal has its uses in certain instances, and for its price-point it's fairly good"
Thank you immensely for the most mature comment I've seen here. This is exactly what I'm talking about.
From my standpoint as a returnee and a not BiS player pursuing Fey enchantment (which I did have and sold) is not the best option unless used on the rotation with single target damage abilities and ST Thaum/Opp build with Focused Wizardry. Great numbers with Aura of Courage.
But otherwise pales in comparison on AoE Rene/Opp build where primary focus is StormSpell feature. In this Vorpal outshines Fey by a long margin on all accounts I've test firsthand on every single encounter in both RD and Omu.
That's the phrase - Situational BiS. And the point is Vorpal isn't trash enchantment. It still has its use.
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Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
That is the problem. In the "BiS" exposition there's no price-to-damage ratio variable. There are instances where there's just no point getting an item if it doesn't pay of.
There should be categories for people before they try to purchase something simply because someone told them "this is the best possible" when giving an advice.
As I wrote, not everyone plays tong or carries a friendly pally around as a buff satellite. What makes an item BiS depends upon what someone wants to use it for. On what I use it for, Feytouched is nowhere near BiS. It's 2nd best. And it's cheap and I can spend the rest of AD on things that would increase my damage exponentially more (pets, r13s etc) than just one overprized weapon ench. that everyone praises without telling them - Hey, if you use a lot of at-wills do not use this. - Hey, for this to work properly you need to use one encounter. - Hey, this thing is best because it uses an overpowered mechanic of Aura of Courage that increases your overall damage and who knows will it last?! Oh, yeah, you need a pally with slotted AoC at all times. - Hey, we who play only tong-centric stuff think everything else should encompass this solitary BiS exposition. To even think outside tong box is a blasphemy and you're either with us or you're speaking alien language.
And I do think it's more important to build efficiency with what you have rather than to pursue something that might change drastically by the time you actually build it. <---- Neverwinter Online's biggest problem since mod1.
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Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
1.) Thank you Sharp. I've been a long time reader/user of all your great work.
2.) Simply put...I don't think you (c1k4ml3kc3) understand the value of producing reliability while testing. There is no problem with that. I'm not hating or putting you down in any way. That is very common. Most people don't consider methodology important for video games either. However, obtaining reliable results is why testing items correctly matters. For example, that is also why fixed weapon damage tests are so great. Without them, you would have to increase the duration of any sample to compensate for the loss of reliability. That is just one example, but allow me to move on to the next point.
3.) Your "test" of fey vs. vorp is equivalent to someone saying "I'm going to buy a dread and see how much harder my icy knife will hit for". If you read the tooltip of fey you will understand that you cannot test it's damage with chilling cloud. You need to use an encounter power before holding down that at-will button for your future "testing".
4.) I understand that you are trying to say that you use at wills a lot. However, the up-time of fey is a non-issue no matter what build you are running. The buff from fey is 20 seconds. Most trash fights are done in a few seconds and during bosses you will absolutely have one encounter ready after 20 seconds (these days most boss fights don't even last a full 20 seconds). If you avoid using encounter powers entirely and just run around throwing snowballs at the enemies with chilling cloud, I ask why? CWs have much more valuable things than holding down that one button.
5.) It doesn't cost 10M ad to make a U fey. Just because somebody posted an item at a crazy price that does not determine it's value. If you are clever, using events to your advantage (for example), you can make yourself a U fey for much cheaper than that. Saying that U fey is 10M ad is like saying a Black Ice Warhorse is worth 30M just because only one is up on the AH. Meanwhile, you could buy a Glorious Resurgence Legendary Pack (which contains a Black Ice Warhorse) for 8-12M, depending on when you make your purchase.
6.) Lastly, Sharp did recommend somewhere (I think in that youtube video about M13) that a Perfect Vorpal was a good choice if you cannot afford a T or U Fey...
2.) Simply put...I don't think you (c1k4ml3kc3) understand the value of producing reliability while testing.
This is an assumption and you're wrong. I am fully aware of the testing methods and what you fail to see is that I won't argue semantics over something that I do find rather obvious and unnecessary to provide. Instead to assume and wonder it'd be best if people actually ask if something's unclear. That would clear out some of the misunderstandings. I do not need a full-on analysis for something that I find most CWs find easy to understand on the forum. I also do not find reason in using something that's built upon the premise of the content I'm not at all interested. It's faulty to assume that only end-game content is what matters the most. For whom it matters? That's the question. For those who do have a more keen eye I'm picking up the mistakes that accompany the "BiS" thinking which produces more confusion than revelation. You get this sort of a gossip about what's the best item and many arguings and disagreeing both on the forum and in-game guild/alliance chat. "BiS" thinking is the reason why I still see people using Lostmauth Set. I find "BiS" thinking to be quite narrowminded. What I did fail to do is be as specific as possible in order to avoid unnecessary discussion on the premise of "Why Fey is the overall best Weapon enchantment" to which I already stated that I agree it's the best overall Weapon enchantment, only to be greeted with Sharpedge's tutorship on things I didn't even talk about nor care about. Moderator removed flaming. When and if I want to make a specific analysis I will open a separate topic. Otherwise, everything I write is simply something you'd breeze upon and move along. I can't fathom why that's hard to take in.
There is no problem with that. I'm not hating or putting you down in any way. That is very common. Most people don't consider methodology important for video games either. However, obtaining reliable results is why testing items correctly matters. For example, that is also why fixed weapon damage tests are so great. Without them, you would have to increase the duration of any sample to compensate for the loss of reliability. That is just one example, but allow me to move on to the next point.
This is another tutorship which I also can mark as "Preaching to a choir" due to a fact, at this point, that you also didn't take time to read my posts. Which is a common mistake, especially by people who jump to conclusions whilst trying to impose their way of thinking as the only justifiable. You could take that as something malicious and arrogant, even.
3.) Your "test" of fey vs. vorp is equivalent to someone saying "I'm going to buy a dread and see how much harder my icy knife will hit for". If you read the tooltip of fey you will understand that you cannot test it's damage with chilling cloud. You need to use an encounter power before holding down that at-will button for your future "testing".
This is again jumping to conclusions and an assumption which is incorrect. The reason why I use it, as I already wrote, was to portray that Fey needs activation prior to it's use, which was a reply of sorts on someone's statement that "Fey works all the time", which is untrue. It is also untrue that Fey is instantaneous since at least one tick is needed for it's activation. Vorpal doesn't have this activation. That was the point of the test. If I need to write an essay or a dissertation for such a point simply because I used 10 rotations of Chilling Cloud, then perhaps problem isn't at all at my method but at the people's expectations to meet their point of view for something that's not even relevant to what I wrote about. If you read again you will notice how easy it was for Sharpedge to completely disregard everything I wrote simply because he doesn't find it relevant. His answer to it is "you can play omu without enchant". That's all there is to it. But again I like to play it with Vorpal
4.) I understand that you are trying to say that you use at wills a lot. However, the up-time of fey is a non-issue no matter what build you are running. The buff from fey is 20 seconds. Most trash fights are done in a few seconds and during bosses you will absolutely have one encounter ready after 20 seconds (these days most boss fights don't even last a full 20 seconds). If you avoid using encounter powers entirely and just run around throwing snowballs at the enemies with chilling cloud, I ask why? CWs have much more valuable things than holding down that one button.
I really, really suggest reading what I write so that you actually understand my point.
5.) It doesn't cost 10M ad to make a U fey. Just because somebody posted an item at a crazy price that does not determine it's value. If you are clever, using events to your advantage (for example), you can make yourself a U fey for much cheaper than that. Saying that U fey is 10M ad is like saying a Black Ice Warhorse is worth 30M just because only one is up on the AH. Meanwhile, you could buy a Glorious Resurgence Legendary Pack (which contains a Black Ice Warhorse) for 8-12M, depending on when you make your purchase.
And if you want to be even more clever, do not go for the Fey if you are not going to play a lot of dungeons.
6.) Lastly, Sharp did recommend somewhere (I think in that youtube video about M13) that a Perfect Vorpal was a good choice if you cannot afford a T or U Fey...
Probably. However, there's content in the game which doesn't really need Fey to be used. Turns out it's exactly the content I'm interested in.
All cool, yes?
Post edited by kreatyve on
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
This is where I disagree due to several accounts among which are the topic of Actuality versus Probability. What you talk about is probability. In Actuality things are a bit different.
- Bugs - Types of enemies - Effective DPS - Managing distance - Using actual weapons that you will use in a fight, instead of fixed damage numbers which are not part of it. - Buffs
Those are all variables which exist and should be accounted for in real fights around Neverwinter instead of just Tong or Dummies.
They aren't different here. This is 1 of the most simple concepts in this game, critical severity. It is very easy to test how it works and it behaves no differently in a vacuum to how it does in reality. The types of mobs you are facing does not change how it works, nor does distance and nor does weapon damage. If you look at how basic division works, weapon damage at top and weapon damage at the bottom means the net result is weapon damage has no influence on the outcome.
Conduit of Ice in my rotation is one of the weakest Encounters which I try to avoid due to how slowly it procs and how long the animation actually is. The spell is on TAB, however, but I find Chilling Cloud to do far more damage than Conduit ever would in any scenario of either RD or Omu hunts. The Proc ratio is also slow. Way slower than Steal Time and Sudden Storm. The only real viability comes from attacking stronger enemies, but even at that point it's more of a buzz damage than any real purpose for a Renegade CW. Also, as I wrote, I was referring specifically to SpellStorm. I am not comparing the overall damage on powers which do not crit nor am I trying to portray that using Vorpal is the best option for ALL SCENARIOS. As I wrote that role is Fey. weapon. I already Agree that Fey's the best overall enchantment, if you only took enough time to read. But not for AoE SS Rene whose primary gameplay is Omu hunt and solo play.
I really do not see what you're trying to prove, except all you managed to do is preach to a choir.
I didn't use conduit of ice because I was implying you used it, I was using it to prove 2 things which it illustrates very well. 1) The fey buff procs on encounters and 2) the fey buff updates after the first tick of the encounter. A good encounter to show this would be 1 that hits multiple times and I picked CoI. I could have picked any of the ones that meet that criterion.
Again with "the group". No group Nada group! Solo! Also, that's debatable. As I wrote (my new catchphrase) I referred to StormSpell and Solo AoE oriented content. As such Fey can't catch up to Vorpal even if you do not have full on 100% critical chance.
That formula I used also partially works for crit chance. If you have even 2% less crit chance than 100%, Fey wins always, since it buffs damage on crits and non crits. Also, from my point of view I would not be recommending enchantments based on solo open world gameplay, since they are very expensive and are unnecessary for it. Its quite possible to clear all the solo open world content without a weapon enchant slotted at all and the only place it really becomes a *must* to have one is in a dungeon.
The maths I've done show that I'm correct, actually.
1. Not needed since I don't play with fixed weapon damage numbers against dummies. I have more variables in my gameplay. I also have to chase enemies, observe which enemy to attack, which enemy takes more time to kill etc. Variables are important. 2. Exactly my point. It doesn't proc on At-Wills. 3. Yeah, yeah, you like math. I know. Don't worry, I'm not attacking math. The math is safe. Except that there're more variables to what you preach than what's shown and I clearly pointed out one of them where Fey pales in comparison. I can point out more of those.
This brings me to a next problem - Why reduce everything to BiS-only oriented content and calculate from that standpoint? There are ways to build a strong character without using the BiS-only stuff around. I've been an advocate for a long time now - Not everyone has the AD and time to build a BiS character so that their Weapon enchantment shines in comparison.
And my point is AD to damage ratio. If you get similar or closely similar performance of an enchantment for at least 50% less AD investment, why not use it? Unpara fey price atm? Unpara Vorp price atm?
That's actuality versus probability. Or practicality versus elitism.
What maths? I haven't seen any. And even if there are millions of variables involved in gameplay, only the barest fraction of them influence the outcome of a comparison between Feytouched and Vorpal. Best in Slot does not include cost effectiveness, its simply a statement of what is, "best in slot." Sure, I will freely admit there is like a very small difference between Fey and Vorp and that in terms of cost effectiveness, Vorpal will give a better bang for your buck per AD invested, but at the same time, if someone asks me, what is *the best* enchantment with no price tags attached, the answer will be fey. If you want cost effective advice to build a budget CW, it would also probably list a lot of stuff not currently used. However, presently my intention is to post neither a BiS nor a cost effective CW build and simply explain how stuff works.
This is again jumping to conclusions and an assumption which is incorrect. The reason why I use it, as I already wrote, was to portray that Fey needs activation prior to it's use, which was a reply of sorts on someone's statement that "Fey works all the time", which is untrue. It is also untrue that Fey is instantaneous since at least one tick is needed for it's activation. Vorpal doesn't have this activation. That was the point of the test. If I need to write an essay or a dissertation for such a point simply because I used 10 rotations of Chilling Cloud, then perhaps problem isn't at all at my method but at the people's expectations to meet their point of view for something that's not even relevant to what I wrote about. If you read again you will notice how easy it was for Sharpedge to completely disregard everything I wrote simply because he doesn't find it relevant. His answer to it is "you can play omu without enchant". That's all there is to it. But again I like to play it with Vorpal
It is more true that Fey works all the time than vorpal works all the time, since unless you have 100% crit Fey will win and you won't have 100% crit without bonding procs. Bondings will likely proc *after* you have already attacked with some range power and if that range power happens to be an encounter the Fey buff will be up.
On the topic of Vorpal/Fey : I'm not trying to prove anything here other than Vorpal isn't a crappy enchantment and it was a major success. The math I posted is spot on for the thing I wanted to acomplish with it. No comment on it escaping your sentiment. On my build it's far more effective and cost-efficient. And that's my sentiment.
This is unrelated to vorpal/fey arguing which I honestly believe nothing else needs talking into.
On the topic of "BiS philosophy" : This is interesting to me - "the definition of BiS"- I think that cost efficiency should be a thing to look into when building a character because it would produce a bit more inclusion when building a character. It's a worthy variable, especially if people are looking more towards "Damage per AD" ratio. That's all superimportant to new players as well as returnees.
On another note with the philosophy "give a rod teach to fish", that's my philosophy too when playing Neverwinter online with the people. Due to that I will never tell people "Take BiS" and go on. I did that back when I was inexperienced and people ended up accusing me once things change on the server. People can be unreasonable like that. I've experienced at least 90% of players I've been in contact with...heck, 95% of players, who do not know how to build a character once something changes with the mechanics. They usually await someone else to explain it to them how things work. They build a character, invest a lot, only because they are lazy to investigate themselves. So once they do investigate they realize that they wasted AD and time building something that might get nerfed or changed. And that leads to much QQ and ragequits.
And usually people who explain it to them are people who only follow a specific path without taking into the consideration the growth of a character and their ability to play the game on occasions which differ from a specific goal. They face a serious problem of having to leave once they see or understand BiS with little or no alternatives at all.
So it narrows down to situations in which people end up following guides without ever realizing what they're doing with their class, for years. And that's a fact, actually, due to laziness or the paingiver mentality.
I am familiar with the approach that you're trying to portray or do, however I think that it's not possible to manage that since people still await someone to tell them how to play and what is the best possible option to use. I do not think that "BiS"-centric builds are bad, however I do think that people are that lazy as if to disregard any other option at their disposal in order to build a character. And this is menacing in my opinion since it produces zombiefied builds that serve no other purpose but follow a strict pattern. And this pattern is imprisoning people. As such people will never, ever, learn. I can bet my money that there are people who didn't even know that Feytouched needs an encounter first in order to be activated and I also bet that there are people who didn't even think about using Vorpal as a potential cheaper, yet quite potent, alternative for builds simply due to its price and bad reputation in the game. We could blame Cryptic's definitions and descriptions for this, but again people seem to be far more lazy and they do not want to learn about the game's mechanics properly. As I wrote some time ago I see people who first build critical severity prior to arpen and crit strike. That.is.a.thing. And it exists because of the "BiS" philosophy which allows lazy people to follow a guide that doesn't tell them things nor teaches them how to play in reality.
I do think that CWs should be a class that easily adapts to a situation and Fey does work splendidly on each occasion with minor differences, however I do not think that Fey is the only possible option. I've met people who only demand, actually demand to see people with specific weapon enchantments and that creates a problem of a completely different sort although it's somewhat related to what we write about here.
I also do not think it is a waste to have a weapon enchantment for Omu hunts.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
They aren't different here. This is 1 of the most simple concepts in this game, critical severity. It is very easy to test how it works and it behaves no differently in a vacuum to how it does in reality. The types of mobs you are facing does not change how it works, nor does distance and nor does weapon damage. If you look at how basic division works, weapon damage at top and weapon damage at the bottom means the net result is weapon damage has no influence on the outcome.
There are instances to which Fey and Vorpal behave differently in response to the Monster behavior and availability for the DPS. In shorter terms : DPS will drop for either when facing different mobs with a different damaging capabilities. It is not the same attacking a boss with Fey or attacking mobs in rothe valley. There are also instances of bugged up encounters which may or may not work in combination to each of the weapon enchantments. We can't just turn a blind eye to that variable.
I didn't use conduit of ice because I was implying you used it, I was using it to prove 2 things which it illustrates very well. 1) The fey buff procs on encounters and 2) the fey buff updates after the first tick of the encounter. A good encounter to show this would be 1 that hits multiple times and I picked CoI. I could have picked any of the ones that meet that criterion.
Does this constitute instantaneous in your opinion even though the first tick isn't affected at all? If yes, how do you acknowledge that t. Fey works 20% at all times when it doesn't?
That formula I used also partially works for crit chance. If you have even 2% less crit chance than 100%, Fey wins always, since it buffs damage on crits and non crits. Also, from my point of view I would not be recommending enchantments based on solo open world gameplay, since they are very expensive and are unnecessary for it. Its quite possible to clear all the solo open world content without a weapon enchant slotted at all and the only place it really becomes a *must* to have one is in a dungeon.
Eh "Fey wins always" - no it doesn't In most case scenarios it may win, but not at all scenarios. I posted already. Let's not go through this again. Unrelated : There is a bug with the SpellStorm feature which is making certain procs to not attack at 100% but, instead, remain at 98%. Not sure why.
What maths? I haven't seen any. And even if there are millions of variables involved in gameplay, only the barest fraction of them influence the outcome of a comparison between Feytouched and Vorpal. Best in Slot does not include cost effectiveness, its simply a statement of what is, "best in slot." Sure, I will freely admit there is like a very small difference between Fey and Vorp and that in terms of cost effectiveness, Vorpal will give a better bang for your buck per AD invested, but at the same time, if someone asks me, what is *the best* enchantment with no price tags attached, the answer will be fey. If you want cost effective advice to build a budget CW, it would also probably list a lot of stuff not currently used. However, presently my intention is to post neither a BiS nor a cost effective CW build and simply explain how stuff works.
No, they do not. Variables are very important. Say that Fey uptime disappears at the exact time when I throw Oppressive Force at 40+ enemies? It crits, but doesn't have Fey uptime. At that moment I am at a serious damage disadvantage since all those procs will just end up being wasted. On Vorpal, however, they remain constant. Unlikely, but may happen.
Budget CW should be a thing to consider even more than "BiS" build. No, really, this should be a very viable project with explanations on the CW mechanics as well as what the build is trying to do or acomplish for its purpose.
It is more true that Fey works all the time than vorpal works all the time, since unless you have 100% crit Fey will win and you won't have 100% crit without bonding procs. Bondings will likely proc *after* you have already attacked with some range power and if that range power happens to be an encounter the Fey buff will be up.
Likewise with Fey, say I start with Steal Time I lose the first tick that can do 100K damage. So I'm at a minus for the first tick of ST on enemies, and as such my dps suffers. It is small, but it is there. I mean, it is as small like that 2% of crit chance.
Unrelated : I always start with one at-will or if I need Nightmare wizardry asap, I start with CoI. CoI works better if enemies are not in aggro mode and Nightmare Wizardry applies on the first tick. Applies faster on weaker mobs in my opinion, although this is a conjecture.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Let's be honest here. The Fey is the only enchantment in the game that starts off with a 10 second buff/debuff with a 20 second cool down that loses this timer at Trans and higher. All other enchantments that is setup similar to the Fey for Pure and lower ranking keeps the timer at Trans and higher. Knowing this, there is a high probability the devs will introduce the timer back on the Fey and it is only a matter of time before it hits the game. Maybe mod 14.
The current meta for CW will change once again.
The reason I'm not buying into the Fey hype is that this game has a way of making 1 or 2 things stronger than needed for a good year and than it is adjusted. Lighting, Lostmauth set, Bondings, etc... Game developers not only have a job at making good content and trying to make the game balance, they also have to find a way to help the company earn some revenue. One way is to encourage us to buy into the current meta and than adjust later on when things change. The adjustment will consume massive amounts of in game resources or real world money. Either way the players are paying.
With what was said a year ago about the Vorpal and Dread, do you honestly feel that the devs will not make adjustment to the Fey or other parts of the game?
If the Fey is not given the 10 second up time for its buff/debuff, than maybe the devs will adjust the starting value for crit sev. The adjustment to crit sev will ensure that the Dread and Vorpal would be a go to enchantment due to a lose in crit sev and make these enchantments BiS for almost all classes; the lone DPS build I could see using another enchantment is the HR Combat due Skirmish Gambit feat.
Currently the Fey is BiS but like the Lighting it will change and probably in the next mod. So why invest 4-8M AD for 3-4 months when the next BiS enchantment could be the Flaming, Bronzewood, Bilethorn, Holy Avenger, Terror, etc... Hard to tell at this point as there is no way to know which enchantment will become BiS at this point, but it will change, that is a given.
When someone ask me which enchantment to use; I tell them Fey is BiS for mod 13 but I would not plan to keep it to long past mod 13 as another enchantment is more than likely going to take the place of the Fey as BiS come mod 14 or mod 15.
Sharp, You are fighting a losing battle. This is exactly like arguing with someone who is against gun control. No matter how many facts and figures you throw at them, they will completely ignore them and keep going on whatever tangent they are on. People who know they are wrong but won't admit it are the worst
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited April 2018
Devs also said that c-wards will be in the trade bar store, so, how that ended?
Vorpal was the king of the hill for 12 mods, over 4 years, Fey is already as is for over half year, why you think that suddenly there will be a change in the next mod? And not like history shows and design changes take at least few years? Would you have assumed that Vorpal wouldn't last long at mod2, 3? 4? 5? 6? 7? etc.. Would you not buy an augment on mod1 because it was obvious that nothing will come close and it needs balance? It took 3? years to bondings and look where we are now? Will you not buy bondings now, because you think it will be re-balanced?
Assumptions are nothing more than that, assumptions.. What X or Y assume that will change has no relevance on what is best currently in terms of damage. Why play a mod when in 5 months the weapons will be replaced? Why to refine artifacts when next mod will have new... Why to play at all..
It's a valid choice, and it's a personal choice for everyone, how much they want to follow the best things. It's unfortunate that the devs make changes extremely slow and extremely heavy handedly, and in this create 'financial uncertainty' and more than anything disrupt the economy but it is what it is, and the rest are assumptions.
This thread, as others like it, do not deal in what is economically viable, or for how long, only for what is best.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited April 2018
Added a section on the hunt gear. As of yet it isn't completely finished, but it is work in progress.
Devs also said that c-wards will be in the trade bar store, so, how that ended?
Vorpal was the king of the hill for 12 mods, over 4 years, Fey is already as is for over half year, why you think that suddenly there will be a change in the next mod? And not like history shows and design changes take at least few years? Would you have assumed that Vorpal wouldn't last long at mod2, 3? 4? 5? 6? 7? etc.. Would you not buy an augment on mod1 because it was obvious that nothing will come close and it needs balance? It took 3? years to bondings and look where we are now? Will you not buy bondings now, because you think it will be re-balanced?
Assumptions are nothing more than that, assumptions.. What X or Y assume that will change has no relevance on what is best currently in terms of damage. Why play a mod when in 5 months the weapons will be replaced? Why to refine artifacts when next mod will have new... Why to play at all..
It's a valid choice, and it's a personal choice for everyone, how much they want to follow the best things. It's unfortunate that the devs make changes extremely slow and extremely heavy handedly, and in this create 'financial uncertainty' and more than anything disrupt the economy but it is what it is, and the rest are assumptions.
This thread, as others like it, do not deal in what is economically viable, or for how long, only for what is best.
Actually Lighting was king starting with Mod 11. Many players were not aware how good the Lighting was in Mod 11- 12b and it took a while for that to materialize in game with the Lighting becoming really expensive at one point. Vorpal and Dread took a back seat during this time.
Fey was always good from the time I started playing considering its bonus damage, many players probably did not realize this and it was not until someone did some testing to prove it that it started to take off. Now that there is data to back up Fey as a top enchantment and others have been adjusted, it is becoming a go to for many DPS.
For a while Bilethorn was BiS, Lighting, Vorpal, Dread, etc...
The devs are doing a balancing act and will continue to do so until they have the enchantments right where they want them.
I don't know what the goal is for enchantments other than a year ago it was to improve the other enchantments so that we would use them but the statement was pretty clear they still wanted the Dread and Vorpal to be the top preferred enchantments. If that has changed than so be it; if not, than who knows how they will adjust things.
I have a vareity of Trans enchantments and use what I like. I simply hate pink on my weapon and yeah it is a DPS lose by not using it and I will man it up and take that lose because my characters do not rock pink in any form or way. Now if the Fey was green or another color, yeah I would use it, but due to it being pink, I'm not touching it.
Sharp, You are fighting a losing battle. This is exactly like arguing with someone who is against gun control. No matter how many facts and figures you throw at them, they will completely ignore them and keep going on whatever tangent they are on. People who know they are wrong but won't admit it are the worst
Way to make a closed discussion open again. And a way to be very disrespectful, too.
Sharpedge didn't fight a losing battle. He was correct on nearly everything he wrote with some slight modicums on DPS/DMG differential. Sharpedge did not understand my point at the time. He was going on with his default thing, jumping to maths asap prior to seeing why I posted what I posted. And when he did not understand it, others went on that jumpwaggon as well, taking things out of the context because it escapes their point of view and the ways they are used to on the points of calculation/testing or whatnot. That's the effect of making an elephant out of a fly. Sharpedge, however, didn't see why I posted what I posted on the form of at-wills. Sharpedge assumed and neglected it, which others did as well, since for them (and as Sharpedge also wrote) the only thing where they care for or acknowledge functionality is the hi-end or, rather, boss battles.
To this I never agreed and I always found a way to make my build decent enough with the minimum possible investment, knowing and predicting each and every nerf / buff along the line despite it's prolongation.
If you or Sharpedge want to prove me wrong, you need to prove that Feytouched works of at-will "Chilling Cloud". Since that wont and can't happen at the moment, I don't think that you're at the position to question my argumentative skills, let alone to question my points of view and categorize them as nothing more than vanity, especially when you yourself haven't made any contributions to it either.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
You just need to turn feytouched on with an encounter, then it will work on your at wills for 20 seconds
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Just for the rest of the people who are/if going to read this:
1. It can be easily shown how fey has 100% uptime.
2. Weapon enchantment damage is not effected by enemy behavior, the damage formula is simple, and can and was verified in practice. All the significant variables are taken into account, RI, DR, Power, encounter modifiers, etc.. For some enchantments the number of targets has significance, not so in Fey vs Vorpal discussion.
3. A differential test should be done either with fixed damage weapons or enough times to account for the RNG. Given that we are not in statistics class and don't want to do p-value and hypothesis testing, we just use fixed weapons damage. A test without those proves that the game has RNG on damage, which fortunately we already know but not much else.
4. To prove that fey is better than vorpal when CS is higher than a certian point, one doesn't need to prove that Feytouched works on at-will. There is no modus ponens between the two.
5. When someone claims that their math is correct, it's actually will be great to show said math. Math usually comes in the form of equations, numbers and functions. Claims and assertions are not math, nor ACT logs or excels, tables, etc...
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Devs also said that c-wards will be in the trade bar store, so, how that ended?
Vorpal was the king of the hill for 12 mods, over 4 years, Fey is already as is for over half year, why you think that suddenly there will be a change in the next mod? And not like history shows and design changes take at least few years? Would you have assumed that Vorpal wouldn't last long at mod2, 3? 4? 5? 6? 7? etc.. Would you not buy an augment on mod1 because it was obvious that nothing will come close and it needs balance? It took 3? years to bondings and look where we are now? Will you not buy bondings now, because you think it will be re-balanced?
Assumptions are nothing more than that, assumptions.. What X or Y assume that will change has no relevance on what is best currently in terms of damage. Why play a mod when in 5 months the weapons will be replaced? Why to refine artifacts when next mod will have new... Why to play at all..
It's a valid choice, and it's a personal choice for everyone, how much they want to follow the best things. It's unfortunate that the devs make changes extremely slow and extremely heavy handedly, and in this create 'financial uncertainty' and more than anything disrupt the economy but it is what it is, and the rest are assumptions.
This thread, as others like it, do not deal in what is economically viable, or for how long, only for what is best.
Actually Lighting was king starting with Mod 11. Many players were not aware how good the Lighting was in Mod 11- 12b and it took a while for that to materialize in game with the Lighting becoming really expensive at one point. Vorpal and Dread took a back seat during this time.
Fey was always good from the time I started playing considering its bonus damage, many players probably did not realize this and it was not until someone did some testing to prove it that it started to take off. Now that there is data to back up Fey as a top enchantment and others have been adjusted, it is becoming a go to for many DPS.
For a while Bilethorn was BiS, Lighting, Vorpal, Dread, etc...
The devs are doing a balancing act and will continue to do so until they have the enchantments right where they want them.
I don't know what the goal is for enchantments other than a year ago it was to improve the other enchantments so that we would use them but the statement was pretty clear they still wanted the Dread and Vorpal to be the top preferred enchantments. If that has changed than so be it; if not, than who knows how they will adjust things.
I have a vareity of Trans enchantments and use what I like. I simply hate pink on my weapon and yeah it is a DPS lose by not using it and I will man it up and take that lose because my characters do not rock pink in any form or way. Now if the Fey was green or another color, yeah I would use it, but due to it being pink, I'm not touching it.
Not using it because of it's color, is of-course a personal choice, and can't be argued against. Especially if the person understands the difference and willing to trade it off. Lets say ~5% DPS.
You are correct about the mod count, but lets take 2 mods back, up to mod 10... Or even less up to 7? Until dread, where vorpal was the king for CW, and longer for the rest, until mod11b? Enchant changes.
I think you are more stating wishful thinking than an assumption based on history. Wishful thinking is that the devs will do X and Y on the next mod, to tweak enchant back or forward. Lets be clear, I'm by no means against it, I have enough vorpals and feys to sell some, use some, and go to pink, vorpal bright disco. But history shows differently, history shows slow changes, slow reaction, allowing even the most patient people to finally invest in something and only then the change comes. This is obviously a bad situation, but this what happened time after time.
So you when you say "Devs will adjust it", I can give numerous examples when the same expected and it just doesn't happen. So what's the difference now?!
Fey was used, specifically on HRs for example due to the same reason it's used now, relation to what crits and for how much, It's not an issue of many didn't realize that, people mostly knew very well about it, it was just very very bugged, it didn't work on half the things it should, but it was the first to be fixed even before the enchants change, with now the enchants are very consistent.
There are instances to which Fey and Vorpal behave differently in response to the Monster behavior and availability for the DPS. In shorter terms : DPS will drop for either when facing different mobs with a different damaging capabilities. It is not the same attacking a boss with Fey or attacking mobs in rothe valley. There are also instances of bugged up encounters which may or may not work in combination to each of the weapon enchantments. We can't just turn a blind eye to that variable.
Weapon enchantment damage is not effected by enemy behavior.
Comments
To answer your question - no, they wouldn't on a SpellStorm mage since Fey has its own ICD which works better on a MoF once the mobs are properly debuffed. Vorpal's use is instantaneous since it's already applied to a toon and doesn't have to calculate anything mob-wise. Those damage floaters wouldn't be higher on Fey ench in the given scenario.
Taking the damage potential from weak mobs is a no-brainer so fey that has 3 mobs at a time is not a good option. This is why the true potential of Fey is felt once you fight against the Bosses (and especially bosses who hit very hard) in combination to the buff/debuff ratio/value to which Fey's damage scales upon and also takes from
The only real viable option to use fey is because it gives a small boost to the basic damage (but not critical severity) and it works in correlation to other buff/debuff values. That's all there is to it. If you go dungeons, great, get a lot of debuff/buff options and Fey will wreck havoc. If you want to play alone and hunt in Chult hordes of enemies as a SpellStorm wizard, perhaps Fey isn't the best option.
I played with Fey, Dread and Vorpal and out of three used Vorpal was the best in AoE rotation on Steal Time and Sudden Storm combination with Full Rene/15feat Opp combo.
Fey was the best on Tyrant battles, especially when in combination to DCs empowerment options and if some pally comes around on Thaum/OP combo.
Dread was ok on dealing high encounter damage, but didn't do anything for feature.
From a price-point ratio, Vorpal's the clear winner atm for a SpellStorm mage. For the rest of the Ad a couple of bonding runestones or black ice 13s.
Just so that you understand what I'm stating, I'm not stating Vorpal's the best possible allround ench (that is Fey atm), but it's not absolute HAMSTER either as people want to parade with it.
And just so that anyone else understands my point of view - Fey will give you the best "bang for the buck" if you run with pally's dcs and as a MoF. It works better the more debuff/buff options are available. However, it's debatable whether this will last since Aura of Courage might as well be nerfed in the upcoming patches or might lose some of it's potential, especially since it works so well in combination to the Fey enchantment.
It significantly outperforms and as such it might be tonned down similarly to how Lightning Enchantment was toned down, much to the MoFs QQ and dismay. It is a big trap to make a build that's working only on one possible feature that revolves around another person's class. Since I do not carry a pally around me when I go hunting in Omu or similar, I stick with Vorpal and it works very, very well.
Salute
Now if the devs lowered the base Crit Sev on our character to say 25%, now many players would take a damage loss due to lower crit sev. The question than become will the Vorpal or Dread be better than Fey if Crit Sev is lowered by 50% on our characters.
I know the devs are probably reading this and it would not surprise me if they actually lower our crit sev. It would not surprise me as they did want Vorpal and Dread to be BiS with other weapons enchantments as options for us. And this change is pretty straight forward.
For now though, Fey damage bonus makes it the best enchantment for all DPS classes on bosses. Vorpal or Dread are good for all DPS for clearing out adds and GWF should be using Lighting. Other good enchantments on bosses are Terror and Holy Avenger.
As for debuff the better enchantments are Dread, Frost, Terror, Bronzewood, etc...
Right now I use the Vorpal with a Fey in in my shared bank. I have it but I seriously cannot stand PINK on any of my characters. I know it is a visual but I really dislike the color pink on my weapons.
For instance Lightning is BiS for regular dungeon clearing.
Everything is "BiS" for something, depending upon the situation.
In the best possible party scenario with buff/debuff ratios Frost is BiS if nobody else is using it.
I do not see Fey as a better option for mob clearing on a SpellStorm CW, sorry. It's not fast enough in contrast to Vorpal that's instantaneous.
Let me put this way :
Fey's attack of StormSpell :
Vorpal's attack of StormSpell :
Point is that damage of a crit is supereffective. Disregard debuff effectiveness. Numbers are doubled in all instances since Vorpal affects the Feature.
Fey gives insignificant boost to the damage ratio of a StormSpell in such instances. Fey gives significant boost to the Aura of Courage which may outperform StormSpell by quite a margin.
On CW, you can quite reasonably reach 106.5% critical severity (wild storm, iwd critsev boon, tod critsev boon, squash soup) before counting vorpal and 49.5% combat advantage bonus (15 base, 15 attribute, 10 stat, 5 combatants, underdark boon). So, all you need to do is set the crit sev to add to 55% (for unpar vorp) and look at 156% critsev and you will find that if 100% of your damage can crit, then vorpal is a 21.4% dps increase. In contrast, fey would boost 20% of your dps. So the question remains, how much of your dps needs to be able to crit for vorpal to beat fey? Well, 1.20/1.214=0.98846787479, so 98.8846% of your dps must be able to crit for vorpal to win. This pretty much means if even 1% of your damage comes from something that cannot crit, Fey will win. This could be Assailing Force, Abyss of Chaos, or any number of random non critting procs and more importantly it means that even if 100% of your damage can crit without an OP, you are losing about 1% dps without them, to gain more than 4% with them and in my opinion that makes it a valid trade off.
Tl;Dr, Fey and vorp are really close and with an OP fey definitely wins.
So if anything's unclear I may answer properly if the question's being asked. However, forgive me perhaps coming as pedantic in this but you already confirmed what I already wrote :
Vorpal isn't as bad as people try to portray and can be very viable for SpellStorm builds for people who play solo.
To answer on behalf of the log I posted, just a simple comparison between Vorpal and Fey and how it affects SpellStorm. The difference is huge. Extra info really not needed since there's not much to it. Effectiveness is around 105-115 at all times. I also think it's pretty obvious regardless of the context and I do not think that it's necessary to use neutral grounds for damage potentiality since the difference is more than obvious. Everything else is pure semantics.
Unparalleled Feytouched 360K (even better than Trans. Fey that I spoke about previously)
Unparalleled Vorpal 830K
Around 400K difference on 10x Chilling cloud attacks.
No extra Crit severity bullcrap, buffs, debuffs etc.
Unpara vorp price?
Unpara fey price?
Ridiculous to buy fey. for a solo player on a SpellStorm Rene build. I rest my case.
Edited : Showing that Fey needs activation prior to it's use. Showing that Fey doesn't have a 100% uptime that's relative to the Effective DPS.
If I use Steal Time on enemies they are already dead in Omu.
Discussion of enchants is useful though, even if it is only to bring attention to Devs. There has been a wide swing in prices of enchants lately, of what is deemed BiS, so there is also that important aspect of establishing which enchantment is the best; a player does not want to invest a substantial amount into something which isn't, unless it works for them.
Actually, it can. You can prove absolutely everything short of the existence of god with numbers and in a video game (which is just a universe governed by numbers) they are god. Furthermore, speed of use and enemy count are not even variables in the comparison. There is more than just spellstorm as a variable when comparing the 2, unless 100% of your damage comes from spellstorm (which it doesn't) you should compare your global damage and not the damage of 1 feature. Furthermore, Storm Spell benefits from Fey (just as vorpal) so its a marginal difference between them if you compared on just the feature. This is an example on T.Fey (because im too lazy to copy a live version of my cw to show u.fey).
Without Fey:
With Fey:
Without Fey:
With Fey:
You can quite clearly see the moment the fey buff procs. 1) Once again, no fixed damage weapons.
2) The Fey buff did not even proc, because you are testing with at wills.
3) Since you are renegade, add 15% more critsev for phantasmal destruction. Thats nice but 1 shotting the trash mobs in omu should not be the metric used for someone when judging which enchant to buy (because even with no weapon enchants slotted you can do that) and rather the bosses in the hardest content (which do not die in a single hit for cws).
- Bugs
- Types of enemies
- Effective DPS
- Managing distance
- Using actual weapons that you will use in a fight, instead of fixed damage numbers which are not part of it.
- Buffs
Those are all variables which exist and should be accounted for in real fights around Neverwinter instead of just Tong or Dummies.
Conduit of Ice in my rotation is one of the weakest Encounters which I try to avoid due to how slowly it procs and how long the animation actually is. The spell is on TAB, however, but I find Chilling Cloud to do far more damage than Conduit ever would in any scenario of either RD or Omu hunts. The Proc ratio is also slow. Way slower than Steal Time and Sudden Storm. The only real viability comes from attacking stronger enemies, but even at that point it's more of a buzz damage than any real purpose for a Renegade CW.
Also, as I wrote, I was referring specifically to SpellStorm. I am not comparing the overall damage on powers which do not crit nor am I trying to portray that using Vorpal is the best option for ALL SCENARIOS. As I wrote that role is Fey. weapon. I already Agree that Fey's the best overall enchantment, if you only took enough time to read.
I really do not see what you're trying to prove, except all you managed to do is preach to a choir. As a returnee I do not possess 10K+ recovery and as a Rene+Opp combo I do not use Thaum' speed options. So a good portion of damage will come from the Chilling Cloud. It actually does pretty well. Again with "the group". No group
Also, that's debatable. As I wrote (my new catchphrase) I referred to StormSpell and Solo AoE oriented content.
1. Not needed since I don't play with fixed weapon damage numbers against dummies. I have more variables in my gameplay. I also have to chase enemies, observe which enemy to attack, which enemy takes more time to kill etc. Variables are important.
2. Exactly my point. It doesn't proc on At-Wills.
3. Yeah, yeah, you like math. I know. Don't worry, I'm not attacking math. The math is safe.
This brings me to a next problem - Why reduce everything to BiS-only oriented content and calculate from that standpoint? There are ways to build a strong character without using the BiS-only stuff around. I've been an advocate for a long time now - Not everyone has the AD and time to build a BiS character so that their Weapon enchantment shines in comparison.
And my point is AD to damage ratio. If you get similar or closely similar performance of an enchantment for at least 50% less AD investment, why not use it? Unpara fey price atm? Unpara Vorp price atm?
That's actuality versus probability. Or practicality versus elitism.
Thank you immensely for the most mature comment I've seen here. This is exactly what I'm talking about.
From my standpoint as a returnee and a not BiS player pursuing Fey enchantment (which I did have and sold) is not the best option unless used on the rotation with single target damage abilities and ST Thaum/Opp build with Focused Wizardry.
Great numbers with Aura of Courage.
But otherwise pales in comparison on AoE Rene/Opp build where primary focus is StormSpell feature.
In this Vorpal outshines Fey by a long margin on all accounts I've test firsthand on every single encounter in both RD and Omu.
That's the phrase - Situational BiS. And the point is Vorpal isn't trash enchantment. It still has its use.
Another case of Actuality versus Potentiality.
5-6MIL AD diff?
That is the problem. In the "BiS" exposition there's no price-to-damage ratio variable. There are instances where there's just no point getting an item if it doesn't pay of.
There should be categories for people before they try to purchase something simply because someone told them "this is the best possible" when giving an advice.
As I wrote, not everyone plays tong or carries a friendly pally around as a buff satellite. What makes an item BiS depends upon what someone wants to use it for. On what I use it for, Feytouched is nowhere near BiS. It's 2nd best. And it's cheap and I can spend the rest of AD on things that would increase my damage exponentially more (pets, r13s etc) than just one overprized weapon ench. that everyone praises without telling them
- Hey, if you use a lot of at-wills do not use this.
- Hey, for this to work properly you need to use one encounter.
- Hey, this thing is best because it uses an overpowered mechanic of Aura of Courage that increases your overall damage and who knows will it last?! Oh, yeah, you need a pally with slotted AoC at all times.
- Hey, we who play only tong-centric stuff think everything else should encompass this solitary BiS exposition. To even think outside tong box is a blasphemy and you're either with us or you're speaking alien language.
And I do think it's more important to build efficiency with what you have rather than to pursue something that might change drastically by the time you actually build it. <---- Neverwinter Online's biggest problem since mod1.
2.) Simply put...I don't think you (c1k4ml3kc3) understand the value of producing reliability while testing. There is no problem with that. I'm not hating or putting you down in any way. That is very common. Most people don't consider methodology important for video games either. However, obtaining reliable results is why testing items correctly matters. For example, that is also why fixed weapon damage tests are so great. Without them, you would have to increase the duration of any sample to compensate for the loss of reliability. That is just one example, but allow me to move on to the next point.
3.) Your "test" of fey vs. vorp is equivalent to someone saying "I'm going to buy a dread and see how much harder my icy knife will hit for". If you read the tooltip of fey you will understand that you cannot test it's damage with chilling cloud. You need to use an encounter power before holding down that at-will button for your future "testing".
4.) I understand that you are trying to say that you use at wills a lot. However, the up-time of fey is a non-issue no matter what build you are running. The buff from fey is 20 seconds. Most trash fights are done in a few seconds and during bosses you will absolutely have one encounter ready after 20 seconds (these days most boss fights don't even last a full 20 seconds). If you avoid using encounter powers entirely and just run around throwing snowballs at the enemies with chilling cloud, I ask why? CWs have much more valuable things than holding down that one button.
5.) It doesn't cost 10M ad to make a U fey. Just because somebody posted an item at a crazy price that does not determine it's value. If you are clever, using events to your advantage (for example), you can make yourself a U fey for much cheaper than that. Saying that U fey is 10M ad is like saying a Black Ice Warhorse is worth 30M just because only one is up on the AH. Meanwhile, you could buy a Glorious Resurgence Legendary Pack (which contains a Black Ice Warhorse) for 8-12M, depending on when you make your purchase.
6.) Lastly, Sharp did recommend somewhere (I think in that youtube video about M13) that a Perfect Vorpal was a good choice if you cannot afford a T or U Fey...
I do not need a full-on analysis for something that I find most CWs find easy to understand on the forum. I also do not find reason in using something that's built upon the premise of the content I'm not at all interested. It's faulty to assume that only end-game content is what matters the most. For whom it matters? That's the question.
For those who do have a more keen eye I'm picking up the mistakes that accompany the "BiS" thinking which produces more confusion than revelation. You get this sort of a gossip about what's the best item and many arguings and disagreeing both on the forum and in-game guild/alliance chat. "BiS" thinking is the reason why I still see people using Lostmauth Set.
I find "BiS" thinking to be quite narrowminded. What I did fail to do is be as specific as possible in order to avoid unnecessary discussion on the premise of "Why Fey is the overall best Weapon enchantment" to which I already stated that I agree it's the best overall Weapon enchantment, only to be greeted with Sharpedge's tutorship on things I didn't even talk about nor care about. Moderator removed flaming.
When and if I want to make a specific analysis I will open a separate topic. Otherwise, everything I write is simply something you'd breeze upon and move along. I can't fathom why that's hard to take in. This is another tutorship which I also can mark as "Preaching to a choir" due to a fact, at this point, that you also didn't take time to read my posts. Which is a common mistake, especially by people who jump to conclusions whilst trying to impose their way of thinking as the only justifiable. You could take that as something malicious and arrogant, even.
This is again jumping to conclusions and an assumption which is incorrect. The reason why I use it, as I already wrote, was to portray that Fey needs activation prior to it's use, which was a reply of sorts on someone's statement that "Fey works all the time", which is untrue. It is also untrue that Fey is instantaneous since at least one tick is needed for it's activation. Vorpal doesn't have this activation. That was the point of the test. If I need to write an essay or a dissertation for such a point simply because I used 10 rotations of Chilling Cloud, then perhaps problem isn't at all at my method but at the people's expectations to meet their point of view for something that's not even relevant to what I wrote about. If you read again you will notice how easy it was for Sharpedge to completely disregard everything I wrote simply because he doesn't find it relevant. His answer to it is "you can play omu without enchant". That's all there is to it. But again I like to play it with Vorpal
All cool, yes?
What maths? I haven't seen any. And even if there are millions of variables involved in gameplay, only the barest fraction of them influence the outcome of a comparison between Feytouched and Vorpal. Best in Slot does not include cost effectiveness, its simply a statement of what is, "best in slot." Sure, I will freely admit there is like a very small difference between Fey and Vorp and that in terms of cost effectiveness, Vorpal will give a better bang for your buck per AD invested, but at the same time, if someone asks me, what is *the best* enchantment with no price tags attached, the answer will be fey. If you want cost effective advice to build a budget CW, it would also probably list a lot of stuff not currently used. However, presently my intention is to post neither a BiS nor a cost effective CW build and simply explain how stuff works. It is more true that Fey works all the time than vorpal works all the time, since unless you have 100% crit Fey will win and you won't have 100% crit without bonding procs. Bondings will likely proc *after* you have already attacked with some range power and if that range power happens to be an encounter the Fey buff will be up.
This is unrelated to vorpal/fey arguing which I honestly believe nothing else needs talking into.
On the topic of "BiS philosophy" : This is interesting to me - "the definition of BiS"- I think that cost efficiency should be a thing to look into when building a character because it would produce a bit more inclusion when building a character. It's a worthy variable, especially if people are looking more towards "Damage per AD" ratio. That's all superimportant to new players as well as returnees.
On another note with the philosophy "give a rod teach to fish", that's my philosophy too when playing Neverwinter online with the people. Due to that I will never tell people "Take BiS" and go on. I did that back when I was inexperienced and people ended up accusing me once things change on the server. People can be unreasonable like that.
I've experienced at least 90% of players I've been in contact with...heck, 95% of players, who do not know how to build a character once something changes with the mechanics. They usually await someone else to explain it to them how things work. They build a character, invest a lot, only because they are lazy to investigate themselves. So once they do investigate they realize that they wasted AD and time building something that might get nerfed or changed. And that leads to much QQ and ragequits.
And usually people who explain it to them are people who only follow a specific path without taking into the consideration the growth of a character and their ability to play the game on occasions which differ from a specific goal. They face a serious problem of having to leave once they see or understand BiS with little or no alternatives at all.
So it narrows down to situations in which people end up following guides without ever realizing what they're doing with their class, for years. And that's a fact, actually, due to laziness or the paingiver mentality.
I am familiar with the approach that you're trying to portray or do, however I think that it's not possible to manage that since people still await someone to tell them how to play and what is the best possible option to use. I do not think that "BiS"-centric builds are bad, however I do think that people are that lazy as if to disregard any other option at their disposal in order to build a character. And this is menacing in my opinion since it produces zombiefied builds that serve no other purpose but follow a strict pattern. And this pattern is imprisoning people. As such people will never, ever, learn. I can bet my money that there are people who didn't even know that Feytouched needs an encounter first in order to be activated and I also bet that there are people who didn't even think about using Vorpal as a potential cheaper, yet quite potent, alternative for builds simply due to its price and bad reputation in the game. We could blame Cryptic's definitions and descriptions for this, but again people seem to be far more lazy and they do not want to learn about the game's mechanics properly. As I wrote some time ago I see people who first build critical severity prior to arpen and crit strike. That.is.a.thing. And it exists because of the "BiS" philosophy which allows lazy people to follow a guide that doesn't tell them things nor teaches them how to play in reality.
I do think that CWs should be a class that easily adapts to a situation and Fey does work splendidly on each occasion with minor differences, however I do not think that Fey is the only possible option. I've met people who only demand, actually demand to see people with specific weapon enchantments and that creates a problem of a completely different sort although it's somewhat related to what we write about here.
I also do not think it is a waste to have a weapon enchantment for Omu hunts.
We can't just turn a blind eye to that variable. Does this constitute instantaneous in your opinion even though the first tick isn't affected at all? If yes, how do you acknowledge that t. Fey works 20% at all times when it doesn't?
Eh "Fey wins always" - no it doesn't
Unrelated : There is a bug with the SpellStorm feature which is making certain procs to not attack at 100% but, instead, remain at 98%. Not sure why.
No, they do not. Variables are very important. Say that Fey uptime disappears at the exact time when I throw Oppressive Force at 40+ enemies? It crits, but doesn't have Fey uptime. At that moment I am at a serious damage disadvantage since all those procs will just end up being wasted. On Vorpal, however, they remain constant. Unlikely, but may happen.
Budget CW should be a thing to consider even more than "BiS" build. No, really, this should be a very viable project with explanations on the CW mechanics as well as what the build is trying to do or acomplish for its purpose.
Unrelated : I always start with one at-will or if I need Nightmare wizardry asap, I start with CoI. CoI works better if enemies are not in aggro mode and Nightmare Wizardry applies on the first tick. Applies faster on weaker mobs in my opinion, although this is a conjecture.
Let's be honest here. The Fey is the only enchantment in the game that starts off with a 10 second buff/debuff with a 20 second cool down that loses this timer at Trans and higher. All other enchantments that is setup similar to the Fey for Pure and lower ranking keeps the timer at Trans and higher. Knowing this, there is a high probability the devs will introduce the timer back on the Fey and it is only a matter of time before it hits the game. Maybe mod 14.
The current meta for CW will change once again.
The reason I'm not buying into the Fey hype is that this game has a way of making 1 or 2 things stronger than needed for a good year and than it is adjusted. Lighting, Lostmauth set, Bondings, etc... Game developers not only have a job at making good content and trying to make the game balance, they also have to find a way to help the company earn some revenue. One way is to encourage us to buy into the current meta and than adjust later on when things change. The adjustment will consume massive amounts of in game resources or real world money. Either way the players are paying.
With what was said a year ago about the Vorpal and Dread, do you honestly feel that the devs will not make adjustment to the Fey or other parts of the game?
If the Fey is not given the 10 second up time for its buff/debuff, than maybe the devs will adjust the starting value for crit sev. The adjustment to crit sev will ensure that the Dread and Vorpal would be a go to enchantment due to a lose in crit sev and make these enchantments BiS for almost all classes; the lone DPS build I could see using another enchantment is the HR Combat due Skirmish Gambit feat.
Currently the Fey is BiS but like the Lighting it will change and probably in the next mod. So why invest 4-8M AD for 3-4 months when the next BiS enchantment could be the Flaming, Bronzewood, Bilethorn, Holy Avenger, Terror, etc... Hard to tell at this point as there is no way to know which enchantment will become BiS at this point, but it will change, that is a given.
When someone ask me which enchantment to use; I tell them Fey is BiS for mod 13 but I would not plan to keep it to long past mod 13 as another enchantment is more than likely going to take the place of the Fey as BiS come mod 14 or mod 15.
Vorpal was the king of the hill for 12 mods, over 4 years, Fey is already as is for over half year, why you think that suddenly there will be a change in the next mod? And not like history shows and design changes take at least few years?
Would you have assumed that Vorpal wouldn't last long at mod2, 3? 4? 5? 6? 7? etc..
Would you not buy an augment on mod1 because it was obvious that nothing will come close and it needs balance? It took 3? years to bondings and look where we are now?
Will you not buy bondings now, because you think it will be re-balanced?
Assumptions are nothing more than that, assumptions.. What X or Y assume that will change has no relevance on what is best currently in terms of damage.
Why play a mod when in 5 months the weapons will be replaced? Why to refine artifacts when next mod will have new... Why to play at all..
It's a valid choice, and it's a personal choice for everyone, how much they want to follow the best things. It's unfortunate that the devs make changes extremely slow and extremely heavy handedly, and in this create 'financial uncertainty' and more than anything disrupt the economy but it is what it is, and the rest are assumptions.
This thread, as others like it, do not deal in what is economically viable, or for how long, only for what is best.
Fey was always good from the time I started playing considering its bonus damage, many players probably did not realize this and it was not until someone did some testing to prove it that it started to take off. Now that there is data to back up Fey as a top enchantment and others have been adjusted, it is becoming a go to for many DPS.
For a while Bilethorn was BiS, Lighting, Vorpal, Dread, etc...
The devs are doing a balancing act and will continue to do so until they have the enchantments right where they want them.
I don't know what the goal is for enchantments other than a year ago it was to improve the other enchantments so that we would use them but the statement was pretty clear they still wanted the Dread and Vorpal to be the top preferred enchantments. If that has changed than so be it; if not, than who knows how they will adjust things.
I have a vareity of Trans enchantments and use what I like. I simply hate pink on my weapon and yeah it is a DPS lose by not using it and I will man it up and take that lose because my characters do not rock pink in any form or way. Now if the Fey was green or another color, yeah I would use it, but due to it being pink, I'm not touching it.
Sharpedge didn't fight a losing battle. He was correct on nearly everything he wrote with some slight modicums on DPS/DMG differential. Sharpedge did not understand my point at the time. He was going on with his default thing, jumping to maths asap prior to seeing why I posted what I posted. And when he did not understand it, others went on that jumpwaggon as well, taking things out of the context because it escapes their point of view and the ways they are used to on the points of calculation/testing or whatnot. That's the effect of making an elephant out of a fly. Sharpedge, however, didn't see why I posted what I posted on the form of at-wills. Sharpedge assumed and neglected it, which others did as well, since for them (and as Sharpedge also wrote) the only thing where they care for or acknowledge functionality is the hi-end or, rather, boss battles.
To this I never agreed and I always found a way to make my build decent enough with the minimum possible investment, knowing and predicting each and every nerf / buff along the line despite it's prolongation.
If you or Sharpedge want to prove me wrong, you need to prove that Feytouched works of at-will "Chilling Cloud". Since that wont and can't happen at the moment, I don't think that you're at the position to question my argumentative skills, let alone to question my points of view and categorize them as nothing more than vanity, especially when you yourself haven't made any contributions to it either.
1. It can be easily shown how fey has 100% uptime.
2. Weapon enchantment damage is not effected by enemy behavior, the damage formula is simple, and can and was verified in practice. All the significant variables are taken into account, RI, DR, Power, encounter modifiers, etc.. For some enchantments the number of targets has significance, not so in Fey vs Vorpal discussion.
3. A differential test should be done either with fixed damage weapons or enough times to account for the RNG. Given that we are not in statistics class and don't want to do p-value and hypothesis testing, we just use fixed weapons damage. A test without those proves that the game has RNG on damage, which fortunately we already know but not much else.
4. To prove that fey is better than vorpal when CS is higher than a certian point, one doesn't need to prove that Feytouched works on at-will. There is no modus ponens between the two.
5. When someone claims that their math is correct, it's actually will be great to show said math. Math usually comes in the form of equations, numbers and functions.
Claims and assertions are not math, nor ACT logs or excels, tables, etc...
You are correct about the mod count, but lets take 2 mods back, up to mod 10... Or even less up to 7? Until dread, where vorpal was the king for CW, and longer for the rest, until mod11b? Enchant changes.
I think you are more stating wishful thinking than an assumption based on history. Wishful thinking is that the devs will do X and Y on the next mod, to tweak enchant back or forward. Lets be clear, I'm by no means against it, I have enough vorpals and feys to sell some, use some, and go to pink, vorpal bright disco. But history shows differently, history shows slow changes, slow reaction, allowing even the most patient people to finally invest in something and only then the change comes. This is obviously a bad situation, but this what happened time after time.
So you when you say "Devs will adjust it", I can give numerous examples when the same expected and it just doesn't happen. So what's the difference now?!
Fey was used, specifically on HRs for example due to the same reason it's used now, relation to what crits and for how much, It's not an issue of many didn't realize that, people mostly knew very well about it, it was just very very bugged, it didn't work on half the things it should, but it was the first to be fixed even before the enchants change, with now the enchants are very consistent.
Here is a link from a year and a half ago:
https://imgur.com/SPPBA2F