GWF and HR are the strongest and hardest hitting DPS in the game. They are taken over any other DPS because of this.
GF and DCs are buffer for the new content and GF can do good damage, not GWF or HR but some GF can out DPS a CW or a SW, so that is why many group now run..
Mmmhhh...fastest tong run on any plattform was without a HR/CW/GWF. Group was OP/DC/DC/GF/GF. Just let you know: Under some "circumstances" a GF can easy out DPS any "real" DPS class.
We did a few more runs. Not speed runs with BIS players, but chilled runs with buff/tank GF and 14-16k IL chars. After one of our DCs and the GWF went offline we did two more runs without GF (I switched to DC) and with 2 DDs. 14k HR and 15k CW.
Despite the fact, that my DC is better geared, then the one, who left and the fact that he uses my build and rotation, it was less fun. While before we never needed a 2nd try and were done in 20+ minutes, now more ppl died and the dps was much lower. We needed 20 minutes, to kill the first boss. After one hour we dropped the CW at the 2nd boss and invited a 15k GWF. The difference in dps was significant and we were done in 15 more minutes.
Running other combos is doable, but less fun and it takes much more time. I would do so for a good friend, but I would not do a farm run with a random 14 IL DD.
Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
edited December 2017
It is interesting how little correlation there is sometimes between group IL and performance. I have started keeping records of group composition and run times just for fun, and here are the latest 3 runs:
OP/DC/DC/GWF/GF. Average IL 17.2K (!). Everyone had multiple pieces of Primal gear, we had multiple different debuff weapon enchants and everything looked good. Should have been really fast - but no, it took 29 minutes. No screwups or mistakes, but the DPS just wasn't there.
OP/DC/DC/GWF/CW. Average IL 15.6. It should have rung some warning bells when the group leader rushed ahead without giving people a chance to coordinate powers and weapon enchants (despite being asked to "wait a sec for coordination"), but well.... Anyhow, Orcus was a disaster. OP running straight into one of the green balls - apparently he was used to being on "ball duty", and had forgotten he was not. Then the person on ball duty (me) ran out of TempHP because the group DPS was just to low. Next time the group leader (the GWF) insisted that someone else take the balls ... and that person managed to miss a couple of them, with predictable results.....while the GWF was just screaming for "More buffs...more buffs". I gave up - 20 minutes of my life that I am not getting back.
OP/DC/DC/GWF/SW. Average IL 14.9K. Everything went pretty smoothly and we finished in 24 minutes. The GWF was just great, the buffs were there, and things well, just worked.
For those curious, I have no completed TONG. I have seen many videos from what I can tell this dungeon does look intersting. I will eventually get my DC through the campaign to get into TONG. The thing is though, TONG from what I saw is far from HARD. It just requires good communication and understanding of the mechanics.
In other games I heard X IL group could not complete X content. I formed groups that were at the minimum needed for that content and we beat it just fine. In fact, most of those groups I formed we were completing it faster than the BiS groups. The reason is COMMUNICATION. When you run content as a lower IL group you can do just fine with communication and one of my guildies already pointed that it can be 4 manned.
Most MMO games now do not have the difficulty, the biggest issue is just getting your character high enough in IL to run the content.
I do run to9g rather often - and though I love the dungeon I will say that mod12 caused a lot of pain and drama in my group of friends.
A pally can run Tong at 13k - I've done it on both my heal and tanking specs. I took my 12K HR through there and she came in second in damage but died every 2 feet (to be honest I knew she would be a carry but wanted to know how far off she was).
If you have a weak group - then going double DC will help - but you don't need double DC or an OP tank to get through it.
But for the love of god bring scrolls with you. You don't want a 5 hour run? make sure everyone has scrolls for the boss fights. I rarely use scrolls while others go through 20+ per dungeon... but HAVE them.
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
edited December 2017
I wouldn't bother gearing a DC at this point, Mod 13 will likely kill the 2xDC meta and then the only DC's high level groups will want are high level AC DC's.
Also, with the Russian video showing how to kill bosses in TONG in seconds not minutes with a GF, GF is likely going to get an emergency nerf mod 13 with the promise of a rework at a later date, since they are probably half way through reworking TR and SW currently.
EDIT: Also, what @micky1p00 said, it's an endgame dungeon.
--
Gear isn't everything but if you don't have the gear you need to fulfill your role, you're getting carried.
If there are classes that are left out by the comunity because they cant perform, there is a huge problem with class balance and developer need to iron them out. Else that group of people is gonna leave at some point since they cant participate with the classes they like in the latest content. All those hand pick class combo by the community makes it obvious where the problem lies.
And to those veteran out there, instead of figuring out which party combination is the best, should help developer point out what other non perform classes are lacking. That would help the comunity more as player base expand, instead of creating a bigger rift between player. When people beg to join a content, the game is not fun anymore.
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
If there are classes that are left out by the comunity because they cant perform, there is a huge problem with class balance and developer need to iron them out. Else that group of people is gonna leave at some point since they cant participate with the classes they like in the latest content. All those hand pick class combo by the community makes it obvious where the problem lies.
And to those veteran out there, instead of figuring out which party combination is the best, should help developer point out what other non perform classes are lacking. That would help the comunity more as player base expand, instead of creating a bigger rift between player. When people beg to join a content, the game is not fun anymore.
Veterans are helping all the time, like when they were warning Crytpic about the possibility of a 2xDC meta when they were redoing DC's.
If there are classes that are left out by the comunity because they cant perform, there is a huge problem with class balance and developer need to iron them out. Else that group of people is gonna leave at some point since they cant participate with the classes they like in the latest content. All those hand pick class combo by the community makes it obvious where the problem lies.
And to those veteran out there, instead of figuring out which party combination is the best, should help developer point out what other non perform classes are lacking. That would help the comunity more as player base expand, instead of creating a bigger rift between player. When people beg to join a content, the game is not fun anymore.
Veterans are helping all the time, like when they were warning Crytpic about the possibility of a 2xDC meta when they were redoing DC's.
Yesterday run: 2xDC, OP, CW MoF, SW. SW did 70% of group damage and we beat it in less than 25 mins (30 mins but SW got disconnected for 6 and we were waiting :P). Average IL 15k. Honestly I had no idea that it could be possible since I was used to read about "dead dps" class. Yes there is clear difference between good gwf/hr and sw and it needs some love but I wouldn't say you're unable to run Tong while playing with that class.
Similiar run with TR and GF in 24 mins (but it was before bonding nerf though).
Dozens of runs with 2x DC, OP, GF, GWF - 40 - 60 mins at best The same buffs! Like Adinos said dps wasn't there.. and those main dps were saying "not enough buff".. in freaking "meta" squad, rainbow weapon ench, masterwork stuff etc.
Yes some classes suffers from prejudice but if you're really good you still outperfom most of the namely "top dps" classess with ease..and others will see that and befriend you. And then you have free pass for end game runs :P
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santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
If there are classes that are left out by the comunity because they cant perform, there is a huge problem with class balance and developer need to iron them out. Else that group of people is gonna leave at some point since they cant participate with the classes they like in the latest content. All those hand pick class combo by the community makes it obvious where the problem lies.
And to those veteran out there, instead of figuring out which party combination is the best, should help developer point out what other non perform classes are lacking. That would help the comunity more as player base expand, instead of creating a bigger rift between player. When people beg to join a content, the game is not fun anymore.
Veterans are helping all the time, like when they were warning Crytpic about the possibility of a 2xDC meta when they were redoing DC's.
Stop giving them ideas!!
I agree. The 2xDC meta has to go. Most players in game are DD.
There currently is something bugged about SW that causes it to do more damage than it should, hopefully it will get patched asap and won't make the class weaker than before whatever that glitch is started happening.
About the missing dps...you only have to run beside one bad main dps, or 1-2 of the buffer are doing a bad job. The best runs I did so far, allways were something like OP-DC-DC-buff/dps, main-dps. In all those runs the DO-DC and the buff/dps did both, buffs and dps, same as the OP can deal huge ammounts. If that DO/DC deals zero dps and the buffer and OP also, it sucks to some degree. Exception is the AC/DC buffbot. I met a lot of GF´s dealing zero dps with near endgear, no clue why. Same as I met some underwhelming OP´s , zero dps, zero buffs, same as underwhelming DC´s Best OP´s I run with on the other hand, was no dps, but a buffer/debuffer... no clue how to stack 3x bane on a boss, but that´s what a good Pally can do? Regarding the "fastkill of orcus" from the russian team... I was told the OP went devotion and stacked 3xbane on the boss and 3x on the GF, no clue how this is even possible ? But some player are simply damn good.
A GF might deal high dps on singel target... but so far I only met very few , >95% are not able to do so, even trying hard. 5xbuffer in a team with a perfect setup can do crazy dps, but it only indicates that buffs/debuffs are too much in this game (everyone knows allready).
Yesterday I run beside two endgeared GWF´s FBI, both lighting, primal gear, bonds r13. Both dealing 50% of my dps as a warlock... but if I run beside a good Hunter, GWF, TR in Tong they nearly double my dps. It ALLWAYS depends on the player.
About rebirth of warlock ... it´s a bug, some might know this for long, I witnessed it myself in Tong yesterday, damage output doubled by a bug, simply sad.
@balanced what concerns me is the possible outcome of that bug fix:
- (Desired) Bug gets fixed and sws who don't know it have no dps loss.
-(Most likely outcome) devs take down that bug + extra personal, wai dps because lol SW, us SWs who don't know that bug end up with worse dps, nerfed to Oblivion
@schietindebux oh wow whatever it is doubles sw dps? It is indeed sad it's what would give sw a chance to beat or compete wotg good BiS damage dealers of other classes, Scourgimped Buglock Gimpedlock
One more thing, a GWF is no guarantee for good dps. Did a run with some guys from a friends guild. He plays GWF. We grouped up with another GWF and a GF from his guild. The other GWF did 1/3 of his dps. The GF did tank (no dmg at all), but he did not use KV and his CS and ITF were seldom seen.
The GWF I did many runs with left for an OP. The run took 1 hour. At the end the GWF complained about the run time, really? I did contemplate telling her, that the other GWF did (while we were in a group with 2 GWFs) triple her dmg, so with his dps, it would have been a 20 minutes run, but this was not my guild and not my place to comment about other ppls performance.
The idiotic part in this story is, that I struggle to find a group with my 17k CW, but ppl like her find a group, bc of the GWF tag.
Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
In other games I heard X IL group could not complete X content. I formed groups that were at the minimum needed for that content and we beat it just fine.
You can beat some content even if you are way below the minimum required. We had a contest in our alliance - see who could complete specific dungeons with the lowest IL.
You would enter the dungeon and start by removing gear or companions to bring your IL down - there was a condition that the difference between the highest and lowest IL should be less than 500, though. We did run eLoL with an average IL of just over 3200, for example - and you know what - it was fun - it was actually a challenge. (we did not win, though - the winning group did it with an IL of around 2.9K).
ToNG on the other hand - I really, really would not want to run it with a group just meeting the minimum IL. I have sometimes joined such groups when they are stuck at the last boss and one of the players has given up (or been kicked), and when I see that they have been struggling for several hours, I just feel sorry for them.
We do guild/alliance ToNG runs, but we only bring one undergeared/inexperienced player per run. Otherwise there is a high chance the run will just take unacceptably long. Not every run has to be a 20-30 minute one, but spending over an hour is just...painful.
Hoping for improvements...
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
The idiotic part in this story is, that I struggle to find a group with my 17k CW, but ppl like her find a group, bc of the GWF tag.
17K CW? You must be hanging out in the wrong chat channels. There is one issue though - there is a large number of people who will only join a GWF/GF/OP/DC/DC group - and if the GF is replaced with a CW, they will insist on getting a MoF for the buffs. Of course, those are the same people that insist on getting a 15K DO DC (which is silly, because the DO debuffs don't really scale that well - a 12K DO DC can be almost as good at debuffing as an 18K one.
> @oldbaldyone said: > Meh. I've seen 13ks outdamage 16ks, I've seen 17ks that have no clue what they are doing and I've seen 17ks that can do so much that I have to question whether they are exploiting or not. Item Level isn't everything. It also is not irrelevant. While I understand people not wanting to dump a ton of AD/money into getting that 1-2% more damage or whatever, those that do can logically be considered more passionate about the game (may be true, may not). > > The game needs some indication of your game prowess, since "level 70" means nothing. If they removed item level, which many people want, people would just come up with another way to measure you. "LF4M TONG, must have 2 pieces of Primal" or something like that. Think back to SOMI, when people would state their class, ability spec, companion and bonding level.....yea, that was fun, wasn't it? /sarcasm > > The bottom line is, time is valuable and boredom is boring. The game is designed around running the same content repeatedly, over and over and over X1000. No matter who you are, it gets boring, and when you do boring things, you want them done with as quickly as possible. The best indicator you have when inviting unknowns to your party is their IL, and if you know nothing about the person, the higher than IL, the more confident you are that they can do what you need them to do. Don't take it personally that someone won't take your 13.5k DPS over a 16k DPS. Put yourself in their shoes...which would YOU choose? If you said the 13.5, you are lying to yourself (again, talking complete unknown person). > > It is a community problem, a balance problem, an individual problem, and a commitment problem, an entitlement problem. Everyone has a piece of the pie.
> @asterotg said: > One more thing, a GWF is no guarantee for good dps. Did a run with some guys from a friends guild. He plays GWF. We grouped up with another GWF and a GF from his guild. The other GWF did 1/3 of his dps. The GF did tank (no dmg at all), but he did not use KV and his CS and ITF were seldom seen. > > The GWF I did many runs with left for an OP. The run took 1 hour. At the end the GWF complained about the run time, really? I did contemplate telling her, that the other GWF did (while we were in a group with 2 GWFs) triple her dmg, so with his dps, it would have been a 20 minutes run, but this was not my guild and not my place to comment about other ppls performance. > > The idiotic part in this story is, that I struggle to find a group with my 17k CW, but ppl like her find a group, bc of the GWF tag.
I'm a 16.5k dc , I always grab control wizards .I've taken every class into tong with me .the real problem are the dps classes that don't know how to dps .You go through t9 in 25 mins with your friends or you take a chance of over an hour with some random dps who might be too lazy to do his job . An on a side note (people have jobs in real life ) we don't have time to walk crybabies around dungeons everyday , hence we for the best group possible to get as much out of our playing time as possible .former SW also , i didnt cry about the nerfs i pulicked up another character , one more request that is .so stop blaming people for your choice of characters an your lack of skill
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
In other games I heard X IL group could not complete X content. I formed groups that were at the minimum needed for that content and we beat it just fine.
You can beat some content even if you are way below the minimum required. We had a contest in our alliance - see who could complete specific dungeons with the lowest IL.
You would enter the dungeon and start by removing gear or companions to bring your IL down - there was a condition that the difference between the highest and lowest IL should be less than 500, though. We did run eLoL with an average IL of just over 3200, for example - and you know what - it was fun - it was actually a challenge. (we did not win, though - the winning group did it with an IL of around 2.9K).
ToNG on the other hand - I really, really would not want to run it with a group just meeting the minimum IL. I have sometimes joined such groups when they are stuck at the last boss and one of the players has given up (or been kicked), and when I see that they have been struggling for several hours, I just feel sorry for them.
We do guild/alliance ToNG runs, but we only bring one undergeared/inexperienced player per run. Otherwise there is a high chance the run will just take unacceptably long. Not every run has to be a 20-30 minute one, but spending over an hour is just...painful.
IMO, the design choice for the first and last boss to be timed DPS check is the source of all this, or more correctly it surfaces some problems that existed but not as evident earlier. In other cases, with perhaps the exception of old ToS (where she healed from spiderlings and not beams) all the dungeons were not a DPS check, as long as your tank held, or CC or whatever mechanics, you could chip away even if it took all day/night. ofc, the faster it goes the less chance for mistake and smoother the outcome. In this case everyone can stay alive, do to their best ability, and still fail miserably because of the clock. In some aspect it does require from the group to have synergy, builds to be adequate, and minimal gear in the right places (I don't mean the dungeon minimum), it can't be just carried by few who can survive. In other cases, for example demogorgon there was assisted mechanic with the portals, and in both sva and demo there is a normal version to allow people to learn it and participate without the same requirements. So a group could finish, better class, or worse, better at your class, or worse at the end the real top end, min/max synergy was left for speed runs and farming. And it was not as evident at the finish line. It could take twice as long but still people finished the task. Now, it shifted from speed runners to everyone, if you can't meet the time criteria you wont finish. And this re-surface the old issues of party synergy, class choices, and GS snobying.
But on the other hand, when mod 6 came out I've spent all night trying to beat eGWD (preferably the first to do so, but we failed) and today it's a salvage farm dungeon. So with power creep tong will be more and more accessible.
At the end, I do believe that hard content should be part of the game, tong timing with the bonding nerf, and random Q just surfaced the class balance issues and general synergy mess. Very similar to how once, in mod3?, per /lfg you had to be a CW to do CN. There will be always "Looking for 19k GS for idris" but a lot can be made better if class balance, party meta, etc.. took a higher priority and longer planning view than "oh here is a bonding problem lets fix it one day, or maybe next year" Even without deep rework, some of the side effects can be fixed creatively with dungeon wide effects, permanent, or per day rotation for example.
To elaborate, my GF and DC are well geared, too (R13 bondings, offense enchants and some, DC,/ most, GF, def enchants). There are more then enough DDs out there, so most of the time I have to join with my GF or DC. I play since beta and we started with 10 players, but all of them stopped playing, the last ones ca. half a year ago.
Im sure, that there are better CW out there. It is difficult to compare the dps to other classes, bc most of the times I outgear the other players I run with, so dealing 50% more dmg, then some random 16k GWF does not help me compare builds/ dps.
There currently is something bugged about SW that causes it to do more damage than it should, hopefully it will get patched asap and won't make the class weaker than before whatever that glitch is started happening.
One more thing, a GWF is no guarantee for good dps. Did a run with some guys from a friends guild. He plays GWF. We grouped up with another GWF and a GF from his guild. The other GWF did 1/3 of his dps. The GF did tank (no dmg at all), but he did not use KV and his CS and ITF were seldom seen.
The GWF I did many runs with left for an OP. The run took 1 hour. At the end the GWF complained about the run time, really? I did contemplate telling her, that the other GWF did (while we were in a group with 2 GWFs) triple her dmg, so with his dps, it would have been a 20 minutes run, but this was not my guild and not my place to comment about other ppls performance.
The idiotic part in this story is, that I struggle to find a group with my 17k CW, but ppl like her find a group, bc of the GWF tag.
Yup...seen plenty of near 17K GWF all around. Some are carried through content. Ran with 2 of them recently in eToS quick salvage runs. I was on my CW running a Hybrid build and topped both GWF by over 20% in damage. I was not even trying to be top just simply trying to ensure I hit as many targets as possible to buff the group damage. At almost 17K IL as a GWF, you should be able to solo eToS and not get beat by a CW that is almost 4K IL less than you.
Why not make a difficult dungeon available for all classes
ToNG *is* available to all classes. It is just that because of the way it is designed, some classes are more "popular" than others.
If you want a reasonable fast and smooth run (under 30 minutes and no wipes), you will want an "optimal"group, and that means 2 DCS, OP, a good DPS and one "any". This is somewhat bad news for certain classes - and the status of things is simply that it is hard for a TR, SW or a "non-MoF CW" to join ToNG groups, unless they are really, really good, or simply just start the group and invite their friends. You never see anyone looking for a TR in the "elite" channels, for example.
Which basically makes a lot of people left out, and I disagree with your statement that the "way the ToNG is designed" asks for the classes. It is the way Neverwinter is currently designed which makes any 99% of ToGN runs to be needing the GF/DC combo, sometimes the same combo x 2 + a DPS, usually just some GWF with Trans Lightning whose job doesn't even require anything special other than moving from point a to point b while holding at-will only and sometimes engaging with an encounter for the sake of amusement. And if you ask the same GWF to explain the class to you, you may expect only "uhhhhh" since that GWF just copy/pasted someone else and learned the rotation and what to do, and when the things change they're the ones to flip out the most.
That means that some classes are simply more advantageous and the community's supporting this for the sake of beating the content. Correction - the community got used to this, which makes the same grand supreme mistake of
a) getting Lostmauth set grand supreme mistake and b) getting the bondings asap thinking it's a good investment
An easy way to make a grand CW entry is to allow a better control option in which case both SS and MoF would be quite viable or, better yet, stop the ridiculous "higher level damage resistance" for the mobs. Adding more HP to them is one thing. Making them resistant to CC is another. This issue is present since MOD6 which ruined many things for many people.
How long will the GF/DC combo meta run? It's not like that you need both when you play regular D&D, so what gives? Just rename the game into "Dailies and Dragons : The Love of Guardian Fighter ♥ Devoted Cleric"
This combo is so prominent that it shouldn't even be an option to enter the dungeon without the combo, it should be completely restricted to even go into the dungeon without the GF/DC, in fact your PC should telepathically resonate with you and automatically CTD as soon as you even amuse the thought of entering any dungeon without the given pair of boredom & necessity.
But, hey, at least nobody calls TR's because who cares?! > _ > Some of my friends left because of how bad TRs are now. Not cool.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
usually just some GWF with Trans Lightning whose job doesn't even require anything special other than moving from point a to point b while holding at-will only and sometimes engaging with an encounter for the sake of amusement. And if you ask the same GWF to explain the class to you, you may expect only "uhhhhh" since that GWF just copy/pasted someone else and learned the rotation and what to do, and when the things change they're the ones to flip out the most.
Why not make a difficult dungeon available for all classes
ToNG *is* available to all classes. It is just that because of the way it is designed, some classes are more "popular" than others.
If you want a reasonable fast and smooth run (under 30 minutes and no wipes), you will want an "optimal"group, and that means 2 DCS, OP, a good DPS and one "any". This is somewhat bad news for certain classes - and the status of things is simply that it is hard for a TR, SW or a "non-MoF CW" to join ToNG groups, unless they are really, really good, or simply just start the group and invite their friends. You never see anyone looking for a TR in the "elite" channels, for example.
Which basically makes a lot of people left out, and I disagree with your statement that the "way the ToNG is designed" asks for the classes. It is the way Neverwinter is currently designed which makes any 99% of ToGN runs to be needing the GF/DC combo, sometimes the same combo x 2 + a DPS, usually just some GWF with Trans Lightning whose job doesn't even require anything special other than moving from point a to point b while holding at-will only and sometimes engaging with an encounter for the sake of amusement. And if you ask the same GWF to explain the class to you, you may expect only "uhhhhh" since that GWF just copy/pasted someone else and learned the rotation and what to do, and when the things change they're the ones to flip out the most.
That means that some classes are simply more advantageous and the community's supporting this for the sake of beating the content. Correction - the community got used to this, which makes the same grand supreme mistake of
a) getting Lostmauth set grand supreme mistake and b) getting the bondings asap thinking it's a good investment
An easy way to make a grand CW entry is to allow a better control option in which case both SS and MoF would be quite viable or, better yet, stop the ridiculous "higher level damage resistance" for the mobs. Adding more HP to them is one thing. Making them resistant to CC is another. This issue is present since MOD6 which ruined many things for many people.
How long will the GF/DC combo meta run? It's not like that you need both when you play regular D&D, so what gives? Just rename the game into "Dailies and Dragons : The Love of Guardian Fighter ♥ Devoted Cleric"
This combo is so prominent that it shouldn't even be an option to enter the dungeon without the combo, it should be completely restricted to even go into the dungeon without the GF/DC, in fact your PC should telepathically resonate with you and automatically CTD as soon as you even amuse the thought of entering any dungeon without the given pair of boredom & necessity.
But, hey, at least nobody calls TR's because who cares?! > _ > Some of my friends left because of how bad TRs are now. Not cool.
The problem with TONG is this...
OP > GF GF (2nd DPS) > other DPS for its buff 2nd DC > 3rd DPS 1st DC > Healadin
What this translate for main player is OP = Tank, GF = DPS/Buffer, 1st DC is typically a AC/DC, 2nd DC is a DO and than you have a HDPS and usually it is a HR or a GWF with some nods going to a 15k+ SW, CW, and even some TR.
The problem I see is that GF and 2nd DC are both considered none DPS classes and both taking up spots that a Hybrid DPS could fill in the form of a Templock, MoF Buffer, etc...
The other issue is the REQUIREMENT of a DC over a Healadin. I see call out for DCs constantly in the game for any type of content, not just TONG. There is another healer role that can work in place of a DC and it is called a Paladin.
The game needs a rework where any type of healer can provide a similar buff; this means Templock = Healadin = DC for buffs.
Next up is the DPS classes buffing or setup as a hybrid which would mean HR = CW = SW
Tanks buffs should also be similar for being able to hold one own and buffing GF = OP
Neverwinter is far from being where it needs to so that no one class is left out of content. This goes for pure damage dealers to classes that offer group buffing and anything in between.
Reading about GF+DC+DC ? All I read 24/7 the day in every chat and every 14-15-16k channel is 90% of all time: "lfm Tong, need OP-DC-DC" maybe we live in different worlds, anyway Talking about GF as a favoured class is correct, but there are only few that reach toplevel and deal/beat other striker-classes, the vast mayority (>90%) simply runs as buff/speed-bot beside the OP as a servant for dps/speed-buffs. OP is the ruling tank in NWO by far, he spends 25% powerbuff, up to 20% +dps for allmost all classes from Aura of courage, encounterreset, HP-buff
..that´s the sad truth about NWO endcontent and yes, near all striker classes are left out except GWF and "GF" Mod 12+12b = maximum fail in terms of balance and class variety.
Comments
Just let you know: Under some "circumstances" a GF can easy out DPS any "real" DPS class.
Despite the fact, that my DC is better geared, then the one, who left and the fact that he uses my build and rotation, it was less fun. While before we never needed a 2nd try and were done in 20+ minutes, now more ppl died and the dps was much lower. We needed 20 minutes, to kill the first boss. After one hour we dropped the CW at the 2nd boss and invited a 15k GWF. The difference in dps was significant and we were done in 15 more minutes.
Running other combos is doable, but less fun and it takes much more time. I would do so for a good friend, but I would not do a farm run with a random 14 IL DD.
In other games I heard X IL group could not complete X content. I formed groups that were at the minimum needed for that content and we beat it just fine. In fact, most of those groups I formed we were completing it faster than the BiS groups. The reason is COMMUNICATION. When you run content as a lower IL group you can do just fine with communication and one of my guildies already pointed that it can be 4 manned.
Most MMO games now do not have the difficulty, the biggest issue is just getting your character high enough in IL to run the content.
A pally can run Tong at 13k - I've done it on both my heal and tanking specs. I took my 12K HR through there and she came in second in damage but died every 2 feet (to be honest I knew she would be a carry but wanted to know how far off she was).
If you have a weak group - then going double DC will help - but you don't need double DC or an OP tank to get through it.
But for the love of god bring scrolls with you. You don't want a 5 hour run? make sure everyone has scrolls for the boss fights. I rarely use scrolls while others go through 20+ per dungeon... but HAVE them.
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
Also, with the Russian video showing how to kill bosses in TONG in seconds not minutes with a GF, GF is likely going to get an emergency nerf mod 13 with the promise of a rework at a later date, since they are probably half way through reworking TR and SW currently.
EDIT:
Also, what @micky1p00 said, it's an endgame dungeon.
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Gear isn't everything but if you don't have the gear you need to fulfill your role, you're getting carried.
And to those veteran out there, instead of figuring out which party combination is the best, should help developer point out what other non perform classes are lacking. That would help the comunity more as player base expand, instead of creating a bigger rift between player. When people beg to join a content, the game is not fun anymore.
2xDC, OP, CW MoF, SW. SW did 70% of group damage and we beat it in less than 25 mins (30 mins but SW got disconnected for 6 and we were waiting :P). Average IL 15k. Honestly I had no idea that it could be possible since I was used to read about "dead dps" class. Yes there is clear difference between good gwf/hr and sw and it needs some love but I wouldn't say you're unable to run Tong while playing with that class.
Similiar run with TR and GF in 24 mins (but it was before bonding nerf though).
Dozens of runs with 2x DC, OP, GF, GWF - 40 - 60 mins at best
Yes some classes suffers from prejudice but if you're really good you still outperfom most of the namely "top dps" classess with ease..and others will see that and befriend you. And then you have free pass for end game runs :P
There currently is something bugged about SW that causes it to do more damage than it should, hopefully it will get patched asap and won't make the class weaker than before whatever that glitch is started happening.
Any good dpser that knows what he's doing > sw
The best runs I did so far, allways were something like OP-DC-DC-buff/dps, main-dps. In all those runs the DO-DC and the buff/dps did both, buffs and dps, same as the OP can deal huge ammounts.
If that DO/DC deals zero dps and the buffer and OP also, it sucks to some degree. Exception is the AC/DC buffbot.
I met a lot of GF´s dealing zero dps with near endgear, no clue why.
Same as I met some underwhelming OP´s , zero dps, zero buffs, same as underwhelming DC´s
Best OP´s I run with on the other hand, was no dps, but a buffer/debuffer... no clue how to stack 3x bane on a boss, but that´s what a good Pally can do?
Regarding the "fastkill of orcus" from the russian team... I was told the OP went devotion and stacked 3xbane on the boss and 3x on the GF, no clue how this is even possible ? But some player are simply damn good.
A GF might deal high dps on singel target... but so far I only met very few , >95% are not able to do so, even trying hard.
5xbuffer in a team with a perfect setup can do crazy dps, but it only indicates that buffs/debuffs are too much in this game (everyone knows allready).
Yesterday I run beside two endgeared GWF´s FBI, both lighting, primal gear, bonds r13. Both dealing 50% of my dps as a warlock... but if I run beside a good Hunter, GWF, TR in Tong they nearly double my dps.
It ALLWAYS depends on the player.
About rebirth of warlock ... it´s a bug, some might know this for long, I witnessed it myself in Tong yesterday, damage output doubled by a bug, simply sad.
"Buglock" is back !
- (Desired) Bug gets fixed and sws who don't know it have no dps loss.
-(Most likely outcome) devs take down that bug + extra personal, wai dps because lol SW, us SWs who don't know that bug end up with worse dps, nerfed to Oblivion
@nitocris83
@schietindebux oh wow whatever it is doubles sw dps? It is indeed sad it's what would give sw a chance to beat or compete wotg good BiS damage dealers of other classes, Scourgimped Buglock Gimpedlock
The GWF I did many runs with left for an OP. The run took 1 hour. At the end the GWF complained about the run time, really? I did contemplate telling her, that the other GWF did (while we were in a group with 2 GWFs) triple her dmg, so with his dps, it would have been a 20 minutes run, but this was not my guild and not my place to comment about other ppls performance.
The idiotic part in this story is, that I struggle to find a group with my 17k CW, but ppl like her find a group, bc of the GWF tag.
You would enter the dungeon and start by removing gear or companions to bring your IL down - there was a condition that the difference between the highest and lowest IL should be less than 500, though. We did run eLoL with an average IL of just over 3200, for example - and you know what - it was fun - it was actually a challenge. (we did not win, though - the winning group did it with an IL of around 2.9K).
ToNG on the other hand - I really, really would not want to run it with a group just meeting the minimum IL. I have sometimes joined such groups when they are stuck at the last boss and one of the players has given up (or been kicked), and when I see that they have been struggling for several hours, I just feel sorry for them.
We do guild/alliance ToNG runs, but we only bring one undergeared/inexperienced player per run. Otherwise there is a high chance the run will just take unacceptably long. Not every run has to be a 20-30 minute one, but spending over an hour is just...painful.
> Meh. I've seen 13ks outdamage 16ks, I've seen 17ks that have no clue what they are doing and I've seen 17ks that can do so much that I have to question whether they are exploiting or not. Item Level isn't everything. It also is not irrelevant. While I understand people not wanting to dump a ton of AD/money into getting that 1-2% more damage or whatever, those that do can logically be considered more passionate about the game (may be true, may not).
>
> The game needs some indication of your game prowess, since "level 70" means nothing. If they removed item level, which many people want, people would just come up with another way to measure you. "LF4M TONG, must have 2 pieces of Primal" or something like that. Think back to SOMI, when people would state their class, ability spec, companion and bonding level.....yea, that was fun, wasn't it? /sarcasm
>
> The bottom line is, time is valuable and boredom is boring. The game is designed around running the same content repeatedly, over and over and over X1000. No matter who you are, it gets boring, and when you do boring things, you want them done with as quickly as possible. The best indicator you have when inviting unknowns to your party is their IL, and if you know nothing about the person, the higher than IL, the more confident you are that they can do what you need them to do. Don't take it personally that someone won't take your 13.5k DPS over a 16k DPS. Put yourself in their shoes...which would YOU choose? If you said the 13.5, you are lying to yourself (again, talking complete unknown person).
>
> It is a community problem, a balance problem, an individual problem, and a commitment problem, an entitlement problem. Everyone has a piece of the pie.
> @asterotg said:
> One more thing, a GWF is no guarantee for good dps. Did a run with some guys from a friends guild. He plays GWF. We grouped up with another GWF and a GF from his guild. The other GWF did 1/3 of his dps. The GF did tank (no dmg at all), but he did not use KV and his CS and ITF were seldom seen.
>
> The GWF I did many runs with left for an OP. The run took 1 hour. At the end the GWF complained about the run time, really? I did contemplate telling her, that the other GWF did (while we were in a group with 2 GWFs) triple her dmg, so with his dps, it would have been a 20 minutes run, but this was not my guild and not my place to comment about other ppls performance.
>
> The idiotic part in this story is, that I struggle to find a group with my 17k CW, but ppl like her find a group, bc of the GWF tag.
I'm a 16.5k dc , I always grab control wizards .I've taken every class into tong with me .the real problem are the dps classes that don't know how to dps .You go through t9 in 25 mins with your friends or you take a chance of over an hour with some random dps who might be too lazy to do his job . An on a side note (people have jobs in real life ) we don't have time to walk crybabies around dungeons everyday , hence we for the best group possible to get as much out of our playing time as possible .former SW also , i didnt cry about the nerfs i pulicked up another character , one more request that is .so stop blaming people for your choice of characters an your lack of skill
In this case everyone can stay alive, do to their best ability, and still fail miserably because of the clock. In some aspect it does require from the group to have synergy, builds to be adequate, and minimal gear in the right places (I don't mean the dungeon minimum), it can't be just carried by few who can survive. In other cases, for example demogorgon there was assisted mechanic with the portals, and in both sva and demo there is a normal version to allow people to learn it and participate without the same requirements.
So a group could finish, better class, or worse, better at your class, or worse at the end the real top end, min/max synergy was left for speed runs and farming. And it was not as evident at the finish line. It could take twice as long but still people finished the task.
Now, it shifted from speed runners to everyone, if you can't meet the time criteria you wont finish. And this re-surface the old issues of party synergy, class choices, and GS snobying.
But on the other hand, when mod 6 came out I've spent all night trying to beat eGWD (preferably the first to do so, but we failed) and today it's a salvage farm dungeon. So with power creep tong will be more and more accessible.
At the end, I do believe that hard content should be part of the game, tong timing with the bonding nerf, and random Q just surfaced the class balance issues and general synergy mess.
Very similar to how once, in mod3?, per /lfg you had to be a CW to do CN. There will be always "Looking for 19k GS for idris" but a lot can be made better if class balance, party meta, etc.. took a higher priority and longer planning view than "oh here is a bonding problem lets fix it one day, or maybe next year"
Even without deep rework, some of the side effects can be fixed creatively with dungeon wide effects, permanent, or per day rotation for example.
Im sure, that there are better CW out there. It is difficult to compare the dps to other classes, bc most of the times I outgear the other players I run with, so dealing 50% more dmg, then some random 16k GWF does not help me compare builds/ dps.
That means that some classes are simply more advantageous and the community's supporting this for the sake of beating the content. Correction - the community got used to this, which makes the same grand supreme mistake of
a) getting Lostmauth set grand supreme mistake and
b) getting the bondings asap thinking it's a good investment
An easy way to make a grand CW entry is to allow a better control option in which case both SS and MoF would be quite viable or, better yet, stop the ridiculous "higher level damage resistance" for the mobs. Adding more HP to them is one thing. Making them resistant to CC is another. This issue is present since MOD6 which ruined many things for many people.
How long will the GF/DC combo meta run? It's not like that you need both when you play regular D&D, so what gives? Just rename the game into "Dailies and Dragons : The Love of Guardian Fighter ♥ Devoted Cleric"
This combo is so prominent that it shouldn't even be an option to enter the dungeon without the combo, it should be completely restricted to even go into the dungeon without the GF/DC, in fact your PC should telepathically resonate with you and automatically CTD as soon as you even amuse the thought of entering any dungeon without the given pair of boredom & necessity.
But, hey, at least nobody calls TR's because who cares?! > _ > Some of my friends left because of how bad TRs are now. Not cool.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
OP > GF
GF (2nd DPS) > other DPS for its buff
2nd DC > 3rd DPS
1st DC > Healadin
What this translate for main player is OP = Tank, GF = DPS/Buffer, 1st DC is typically a AC/DC, 2nd DC is a DO and than you have a HDPS and usually it is a HR or a GWF with some nods going to a 15k+ SW, CW, and even some TR.
The problem I see is that GF and 2nd DC are both considered none DPS classes and both taking up spots that a Hybrid DPS could fill in the form of a Templock, MoF Buffer, etc...
The other issue is the REQUIREMENT of a DC over a Healadin. I see call out for DCs constantly in the game for any type of content, not just TONG. There is another healer role that can work in place of a DC and it is called a Paladin.
The game needs a rework where any type of healer can provide a similar buff; this means Templock = Healadin = DC for buffs.
Next up is the DPS classes buffing or setup as a hybrid which would mean HR = CW = SW
Tanks buffs should also be similar for being able to hold one own and buffing GF = OP
Neverwinter is far from being where it needs to so that no one class is left out of content. This goes for pure damage dealers to classes that offer group buffing and anything in between.
All I read 24/7 the day in every chat and every 14-15-16k channel is 90% of all time: "lfm Tong, need OP-DC-DC"
maybe we live in different worlds, anyway
Talking about GF as a favoured class is correct, but there are only few that reach toplevel and deal/beat other striker-classes, the vast mayority (>90%) simply runs as buff/speed-bot beside the OP as a servant for dps/speed-buffs.
OP is the ruling tank in NWO by far, he spends 25% powerbuff, up to 20% +dps for allmost all classes from Aura of courage, encounterreset, HP-buff
Tong atm:
28xDC
18xOP
17xGWF
11xGF
...........................................................................
1xTR
2xCW
2xSW
0x Hunter
..that´s the sad truth about NWO endcontent and yes, near all striker classes are left out except GWF and "GF"
Mod 12+12b = maximum fail in terms of balance and class variety.