Also, before Einstein and Lorentz really factor into the conversation, you have to be moving at a significant fraction of lightspeed. Below about .5c, you won't even notice the lag, and it doesn't become a real problem for differing chronometers until around .7c or so. (Sure, the computers will notice the lag at even lower velocities, but they can compensate.)
And it should be remembered that when TOS was on the air, there was little worry about continuity on most TV shows. It's not like they expected a cult-like audience to form and pore over all the minutiae of any given show for decades to come...
I'm in agreement. Folk really shouldn't be using TOS 'science' a barometer, as it changed week to week.
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
Well, they literally called the new Excelsior-class the Excelsior II, so...Neo-Constitution isn't a stretch.
The differences between them, is the visual look, one looks better with an improved design, while the other looks...a major degrade in design. Since I spoke briefly with the designer on FB, not in depth about it.
This is what CBS/Paramount wants...well, they can have it.
Well, they literally called the new Excelsior-class the Excelsior II, so...Neo-Constitution isn't a stretch.
The differences between them, is the visual look, one looks better with an improved design, while the other looks...a major degrade in design. Since I spoke briefly with the designer on FB, not in depth about it.
This is what CBS/Paramount wants...well, they can have it.
yeah, it's like the fugly Galaxy Class1701-D. An insult to the original Matt Jeffries design of the still iconic/original 1701 'Starship Class' <--- I loathed the Galaxy Class design when I first saw it in 1987, and my opinion of it hasn't changed. If Paramount had instead used the Probert design for what ultimately became the Ambassador Class in TNG for the 1701-D design, I might have warmed to TNG sooner.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Also, before Einstein and Lorentz really factor into the conversation, you have to be moving at a significant fraction of lightspeed. Below about .5c, you won't even notice the lag, and it doesn't become a real problem for differing chronometers until around .7c or so. (Sure, the computers will notice the lag at even lower velocities, but they can compensate.)
And it should be remembered that when TOS was on the air, there was little worry about continuity on most TV shows. It's not like they expected a cult-like audience to form and pore over all the minutiae of any given show for decades to come...
I'm in agreement. Folk really shouldn't be using TOS 'science' a barometer, as it changed week to week.
TOS was really not as inconsistent as some people seem to think, they did an incredible job especially considering the number of outside writers they used (though it helped that a number of the outside writers were serious sci-fi novelists). It was not completely scientifically accurate or absolutely consistent of course, no show is, but it did a better job of it than the spinoffs have overall despite the all-too-common idea nowadays that it was somehow worse just because it was made so long ago.
The issue is that as established after TOS, Impulse is used for sublight travel, and warp drive is used for faster than light. It has been consistant through the movies and later shows, and was also seen "before" TOS going all the way back to the 22nd Century with Enterprise. The only oddball in that case, is TOS. As the franchise grew, they standardized many things. One of them beign the distinction between FTL Warp Drive and sublight Impulse Drive.
Paramount Pictures really used impulse because Star Wars turned up an unexpectedly large viewership and wanted to cash in on that audience. Thing is, they knew they would get crucified by the Trekkies if they didn't at least try to maintain at least a token level of continuity, so they spun it as a change of doctrine because of the technical limitations of connecting the phasers to the warp drive instead of the impulse drive to get more power to them.
It never was a retcon, and when Paramount TV (essentially Desilu with new owners and a new name) did ENT they reinforced that fact with things like the Suliban strafing the NX-01 at warp then having Malcom and Tripp figure out how they did it late in the first season in the episode Fallen Hero and from that point onwards they fought in warp when it was appropriate though their crude and cranky warp drive was not up to doing it a lot of the time.
And all the series before NuTrek had at least a little fighting at warp, such as in the episode The Wounded where the USS Phoenix kills a Cardassian ship fleeting at its maximum warp along with its escort at a range of at least 250,000km using two different weapon systems (presumably photon torpedoes and phasers since it was a Federation ship) and a few chase battles now and then.
Also, in ENT they eventually started leaving orbit in warp just like in TOS, though not all the time. However, it can be supposed that they apparently either didn't have the tech, the technique, (or possibly) the confidence to do an orbital insertion using just warp drive at that point yet since they didn't seem to do that much, if at all.
So no, TOS is not "the oddball". It was firmly established in not just one, but two different series, that the technology supports using warp drive for a lot more than just a Star Wars style jump between scene locations, and that it is instead a matter of doctrine and protocol changing and adapting over time.
Phoenix, I want you to sit down and watch all of the TOS episodes in a row. Yes, even "Spock's Brain" and "The Omega Glory". Take notes, if you must. Then come back here and repeat all that with a straight face. Because TOS never even addressed whether you could go to warp from planetary orbit, because that was never important to any of the stories. They never had a warp effect, other than the streaming-stars thing; they didn't even have consistent phaser effects (in "A Piece of the Action" they could use ship phasers on stun, but that was the only time, despite all the other times it would have come in really handy, just as an example - then there are the changing SFX, which were usually a blue beam except when they looked like photon torpedoes...).
There was continuity with the characters, and the ship never changed her shape (although she did change her size, from a complement of "over 200" to "more than 400"), but that was about it.
Also, before Einstein and Lorentz really factor into the conversation, you have to be moving at a significant fraction of lightspeed. Below about .5c, you won't even notice the lag, and it doesn't become a real problem for differing chronometers until around .7c or so. (Sure, the computers will notice the lag at even lower velocities, but they can compensate.)
And it should be remembered that when TOS was on the air, there was little worry about continuity on most TV shows. It's not like they expected a cult-like audience to form and pore over all the minutiae of any given show for decades to come...
I'm in agreement. Folk really shouldn't be using TOS 'science' a barometer, as it changed week to week.
TOS was really not as inconsistent as some people seem to think, they did an incredible job especially considering the number of outside writers they used (though it helped that a number of the outside writers were serious sci-fi novelists). It was not completely scientifically accurate or absolutely consistent of course, no show is, but it did a better job of it than the spinoffs have overall despite the all-too-common idea nowadays that it was somehow worse just because it was made so long ago.
The issue is that as established after TOS, Impulse is used for sublight travel, and warp drive is used for faster than light. It has been consistant through the movies and later shows, and was also seen "before" TOS going all the way back to the 22nd Century with Enterprise. The only oddball in that case, is TOS. As the franchise grew, they standardized many things. One of them beign the distinction between FTL Warp Drive and sublight Impulse Drive.
Paramount Pictures really used impulse because Star Wars turned up an unexpectedly large viewership and wanted to cash in on that audience. Thing is, they knew they would get crucified by the Trekkies if they didn't at least try to maintain at least a token level of continuity, so they spun it as a change of doctrine because of the technical limitations of connecting the phasers to the warp drive instead of the impulse drive to get more power to them.
It never was a retcon, and when Paramount TV (essentially Desilu with new owners and a new name) did ENT they reinforced that fact with things like the Suliban strafing the NX-01 at warp then having Malcom and Tripp figure out how they did it late in the first season in the episode Fallen Hero and from that point onwards they fought in warp when it was appropriate though their crude and cranky warp drive was not up to doing it a lot of the time.
And all the series before NuTrek had at least a little fighting at warp, such as in the episode The Wounded where the USS Phoenix kills a Cardassian ship fleeting at its maximum warp along with its escort at a range of at least 250,000km using two different weapon systems (presumably photon torpedoes and phasers since it was a Federation ship) and a few chase battles now and then.
Also, in ENT they eventually started leaving orbit in warp just like in TOS, though not all the time. However, it can be supposed that they apparently either didn't have the tech, the technique, (or possibly) the confidence to do an orbital insertion using just warp drive at that point yet since they didn't seem to do that much, if at all.
So no, TOS is not "the oddball". It was firmly established in not just one, but two different series, that the technology supports using warp drive for a lot more than just a Star Wars style jump between scene locations, and that it is instead a matter of doctrine and protocol changing and adapting over time.
And it is established canon that ships can't turn for treacle toffee whilst in warp, and the extreme vast majority of combat is done at impulse. It makes little, sorry, no tactical sense to fight at warp; in fact, it's practically suicide if you're the lead ship, when a considerable amount of power is diverted to the warp coils, a la TMP for example. The science of Star Trek improved with the times, and there is probably a good number of TNG era+ 'changes' that matched the current theories at the time.
Art, imitates life, imitates art, etc. etc.
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
Also, before Einstein and Lorentz really factor into the conversation, you have to be moving at a significant fraction of lightspeed. Below about .5c, you won't even notice the lag, and it doesn't become a real problem for differing chronometers until around .7c or so. (Sure, the computers will notice the lag at even lower velocities, but they can compensate.)
And it should be remembered that when TOS was on the air, there was little worry about continuity on most TV shows. It's not like they expected a cult-like audience to form and pore over all the minutiae of any given show for decades to come...
I'm in agreement. Folk really shouldn't be using TOS 'science' a barometer, as it changed week to week.
TOS was really not as inconsistent as some people seem to think, they did an incredible job especially considering the number of outside writers they used (though it helped that a number of the outside writers were serious sci-fi novelists). It was not completely scientifically accurate or absolutely consistent of course, no show is, but it did a better job of it than the spinoffs have overall despite the all-too-common idea nowadays that it was somehow worse just because it was made so long ago.
The issue is that as established after TOS, Impulse is used for sublight travel, and warp drive is used for faster than light. It has been consistant through the movies and later shows, and was also seen "before" TOS going all the way back to the 22nd Century with Enterprise. The only oddball in that case, is TOS. As the franchise grew, they standardized many things. One of them beign the distinction between FTL Warp Drive and sublight Impulse Drive.
Paramount Pictures really used impulse because Star Wars turned up an unexpectedly large viewership and wanted to cash in on that audience. Thing is, they knew they would get crucified by the Trekkies if they didn't at least try to maintain at least a token level of continuity, so they spun it as a change of doctrine because of the technical limitations of connecting the phasers to the warp drive instead of the impulse drive to get more power to them.
It never was a retcon, and when Paramount TV (essentially Desilu with new owners and a new name) did ENT they reinforced that fact with things like the Suliban strafing the NX-01 at warp then having Malcom and Tripp figure out how they did it late in the first season in the episode Fallen Hero and from that point onwards they fought in warp when it was appropriate though their crude and cranky warp drive was not up to doing it a lot of the time.
And all the series before NuTrek had at least a little fighting at warp, such as in the episode The Wounded where the USS Phoenix kills a Cardassian ship fleeting at its maximum warp along with its escort at a range of at least 250,000km using two different weapon systems (presumably photon torpedoes and phasers since it was a Federation ship) and a few chase battles now and then.
Also, in ENT they eventually started leaving orbit in warp just like in TOS, though not all the time. However, it can be supposed that they apparently either didn't have the tech, the technique, (or possibly) the confidence to do an orbital insertion using just warp drive at that point yet since they didn't seem to do that much, if at all.
So no, TOS is not "the oddball". It was firmly established in not just one, but two different series, that the technology supports using warp drive for a lot more than just a Star Wars style jump between scene locations, and that it is instead a matter of doctrine and protocol changing and adapting over time.
And it is established canon that ships can't turn for treacle toffee whilst in warp, and the extreme vast majority of combat is done at impulse. It makes little, sorry, no tactical sense to fight at warp; in fact, it's practically suicide if you're the lead ship, when a considerable amount of power is diverted to the warp coils, a la TMP for example. The science of Star Trek improved with the times, and there is probably a good number of TNG era+ 'changes' that matched the current theories at the time.
Art, imitates life, imitates art, etc. etc.
Really? Go wath TOS S2 -The Ultimate Computer - and get back to me on how 'established' it is that Federation Starships don't turn at warp. It was also NEVER established that the 'majority of combat is done at Impulse'.
In fact TOS S2 Journey To Babel and TOS S3 Elaan of Troyius pretty much established the opposite, including the fact that you can have combat between a ship goping at Impulse, and the other ship going at better than Warp 7.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Also, before Einstein and Lorentz really factor into the conversation, you have to be moving at a significant fraction of lightspeed. Below about .5c, you won't even notice the lag, and it doesn't become a real problem for differing chronometers until around .7c or so. (Sure, the computers will notice the lag at even lower velocities, but they can compensate.)
And it should be remembered that when TOS was on the air, there was little worry about continuity on most TV shows. It's not like they expected a cult-like audience to form and pore over all the minutiae of any given show for decades to come...
I'm in agreement. Folk really shouldn't be using TOS 'science' a barometer, as it changed week to week.
TOS was really not as inconsistent as some people seem to think, they did an incredible job especially considering the number of outside writers they used (though it helped that a number of the outside writers were serious sci-fi novelists). It was not completely scientifically accurate or absolutely consistent of course, no show is, but it did a better job of it than the spinoffs have overall despite the all-too-common idea nowadays that it was somehow worse just because it was made so long ago.
The issue is that as established after TOS, Impulse is used for sublight travel, and warp drive is used for faster than light. It has been consistant through the movies and later shows, and was also seen "before" TOS going all the way back to the 22nd Century with Enterprise. The only oddball in that case, is TOS. As the franchise grew, they standardized many things. One of them beign the distinction between FTL Warp Drive and sublight Impulse Drive.
Paramount Pictures really used impulse because Star Wars turned up an unexpectedly large viewership and wanted to cash in on that audience. Thing is, they knew they would get crucified by the Trekkies if they didn't at least try to maintain at least a token level of continuity, so they spun it as a change of doctrine because of the technical limitations of connecting the phasers to the warp drive instead of the impulse drive to get more power to them.
It never was a retcon, and when Paramount TV (essentially Desilu with new owners and a new name) did ENT they reinforced that fact with things like the Suliban strafing the NX-01 at warp then having Malcom and Tripp figure out how they did it late in the first season in the episode Fallen Hero and from that point onwards they fought in warp when it was appropriate though their crude and cranky warp drive was not up to doing it a lot of the time.
And all the series before NuTrek had at least a little fighting at warp, such as in the episode The Wounded where the USS Phoenix kills a Cardassian ship fleeting at its maximum warp along with its escort at a range of at least 250,000km using two different weapon systems (presumably photon torpedoes and phasers since it was a Federation ship) and a few chase battles now and then.
Also, in ENT they eventually started leaving orbit in warp just like in TOS, though not all the time. However, it can be supposed that they apparently either didn't have the tech, the technique, (or possibly) the confidence to do an orbital insertion using just warp drive at that point yet since they didn't seem to do that much, if at all.
So no, TOS is not "the oddball". It was firmly established in not just one, but two different series, that the technology supports using warp drive for a lot more than just a Star Wars style jump between scene locations, and that it is instead a matter of doctrine and protocol changing and adapting over time.
And it is established canon that ships can't turn for treacle toffee whilst in warp, and the extreme vast majority of combat is done at impulse. It makes little, sorry, no tactical sense to fight at warp; in fact, it's practically suicide if you're the lead ship, when a considerable amount of power is diverted to the warp coils, a la TMP for example. The science of Star Trek improved with the times, and there is probably a good number of TNG era+ 'changes' that matched the current theories at the time.
Art, imitates life, imitates art, etc. etc.
Really? Go wath TOS S2 -The Ultimate Computer - and get back to me on how 'established' it is that Federation Starships don't turn at warp. It was also NEVER established that the 'majority of combat is done at Impulse'.
In fact TOS S2 Journey To Babel and TOS S3 Elaan of Troyius pretty much established the opposite, including the fact that you can have combat between a ship goping at Impulse, and the other ship going at better than Warp 7.
AH, once again going to TOS science, which has been superceeded since. I did not say CAN'T turn. If you read further up the thread you'll see I already explained that turning whilst in warp is very hard to do, as in turning in treacle. Sorry, I don't have episode names burned into my head, but it's canon. "Faster than light, no left or right" as per STV.
And I have no idea what you mean with your second statement.
And yes, there is the curious case of the Phoenix Nebula Class, but it has since been superceeded.
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
Phoenix, I want you to sit down and watch all of the TOS episodes in a row. Yes, even "Spock's Brain" and "The Omega Glory". Take notes, if you must. Then come back here and repeat all that with a straight face. Because TOS never even addressed whether you could go to warp from planetary orbit, because that was never important to any of the stories. They never had a warp effect, other than the streaming-stars thing; they didn't even have consistent phaser effects (in "A Piece of the Action" they could use ship phasers on stun, but that was the only time, despite all the other times it would have come in really handy, just as an example - then there are the changing SFX, which were usually a blue beam except when they looked like photon torpedoes...).
There was continuity with the characters, and the ship never changed her shape (although she did change her size, from a complement of "over 200" to "more than 400"), but that was about it.
I have seen every episode of TOS at least several dozen times, and in most episodes Kirk orders them to leave orbit at warp two. So yes, TOS did address whether you could go to warp from orbit in almost all of the episodes, they just did not technobabble about it like TNG and the other Berman era shows would have. Then of course there is the dialog in Elaan of Troyius that explicitly states that they almost never use impulse drive that supports that usage of warp from orbit.
Warp drive is not Alcubierre drive so it doesn't have to do the damage that the Alcubierre drive would theoretically do, and both TOS and ENT (not to mention other spinoffs where they occasionally used warp in a star system) plainly show that. Likewise, they have used warp while in deeper gravity wells than a planet can generate before, so there is nothing that would prevent leaving or entering orbit in warp (though in theory they would have to use some sort of thrust to adjust orbital altitude and whatnot unless "standard orbit" just means orbiting at a particular speed regardless of what altitude it would put them at, which is doubtful).
Out of curiosity, what continuity gaff is Omega Glory supposed to have besides the badge error? Sure, it suffers from the "it's another Earth" syndrome like all too many other episodes did but that is actually consistent with the rest of TOS so it is not a continuity problem in of itself and is no worse than the "it's another starfaring civilization that uses medieval farming practices and peasant clothing" thing that the Berman era shows overused.
As for the setting the ship's phasers to stun, why would that be a continuity issue? It is more likely that it is a classic case of Starfleet's love of fielding Swiss Army Knife gadgets instead of simpler focused solutions (see Kira's description of the finicky but flexible Federation phaser rifle compared to the rough and ready Cardassian disrupter rifle for a great example), preparing for possible situations that my rarely if ever come about just in case it may come in handy.
Considering that they mainly use phasers in ship to ship combat and as large-scale cutting tools it makes sense that they rarely ever use stun from ships as hardware and rocks cannot be stunned.
And as for phaser effects, at the time the load was too high to use any one VFX house so there were differences and (like every other production, not just TOS) occasional mistakes. That said, there has never been a rule that said phasers all have to have only one color, so TOS using multiple colors is likewise not an inconsistency.
In fact, since Roddenberry and Jefferies have both said on panels and interviews that the TOS Enterprise used track phasers that could be easily changed via the turbolift tubes the color thing would not even be an issue even if each particular phaser could not change color. And statistically (yes, someone actually counted them) they used red slightly more often than blue, blue was probably the more popular color since that is what color it was in the iconic 'poster shot' they used on things like the AMT model box and whatnot.
In Balance of Terror they were going to introduce the photon torpedo (it was always in the series bible, but unseen in the show itself to that point) but a script-checker thought they caught an error (an unknown weapon type) and "fixed" it by substituting the word "phaser" for it in the final shooting script. By the time they saw the error in the dailies it was too late to go back and reshoot without missing deadlines and running up an unacceptable extra cost (just like the badge error in The Omega Glory. Once that error was baked in it was no longer important whether they used phasers in beam mode or bolt mode continuity wise.
And yes, a few other times stun from orbit would possibly have come in handy, but most of those situations would have run afoul of the prime directive (in A Piece of the Action the cat was already out of the bag and a quick surgical strike as a demonstration was the best way to minimize the damage).
As for warp SFX, why would they use them? At the time they were not trying to emulate Star Wars to attract space opera and action movie fans like the movie era did, and ENT (not to mention other series) did not always show any special warp effect after they went to warp either.
On a practical production note, according to dialog in TOS they were almost always in warp when travelling, so it was in their interest to keep it simple since each pass through the triple-head compositors of the time added expense and lowered image quality. In-story, since they used a mainscreen and not a picture window the only sensible way to show space around the ship would be to correct any starbow or warp field bubble distortions, so it is not a useless jumble of pretty lights like it is in NuTrek.
And yes, Spock's Brain used that idiotic reference to 'advanced ion drive' nonsense but then again it was a horrible script overall, one of the truly low point episodes that any TV series has. Remember that I did mention the fact that occasionally they did succumb to the temptation to use terms and star names that even the non-science-nerds would recognize though it did not always make sense (and it is not like TOS was the only show to ever do that occasionally).
I don't have any problem with ship based phasers being set to stun. Since its the exact same tech as hand phasers, just scaled up, its entirely possible. It was probably just deemed impractical or something, or too aggressive a move for Starfleet to essentially do orbital bombardment, even with a stun setting.
Okay, I hit the first sentence. Kirk never ordered the ship to leave orbit at warp 2. He ordered Sulu to "set a course, warp factor 2." Your interpretation would be like a modern ship captain telling his bridge crew to follow his course from Everett Naval Base to Pearl Harbor at flank speed, and assuming that means the signal will be sent to hit flank speed at the dock.
Other hand, in TMP they thought it would be risky to engage warp drive while inside Jupiter's orbit, which contradicts what you said. Also, it has nothing to do with Alcubierre-White warp, which wouldn't have deleterious effects until you collapse the bubble (at which point it sends out a wave of Hawking radiation that's collected in the bow wave). Rather, Cochrane's warp drive appears to be dangerous to itself when too close to a gravitational source - not as badly as, say, Niven's hyperdrive, which causes the drive to sort of wrap around itself and disappear, but not good.
So if Trek science is so very consistent, which one is correct?
If it's dangerous to itself, they apparently fixed the problems by TNG, given the Cerritos and Voyager were both able to go to warp while in the gravity well of a black hole.
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Okay, I hit the first sentence. Kirk never ordered the ship to leave orbit at warp 2. He ordered Sulu to "set a course, warp factor 2." Your interpretation would be like a modern ship captain telling his bridge crew to follow his course from Everett Naval Base to Pearl Harbor at flank speed, and assuming that means the signal will be sent to hit flank speed at the dock.
Other hand, in TMP they thought it would be risky to engage warp drive while inside Jupiter's orbit, which contradicts what you said. Also, it has nothing to do with Alcubierre-White warp, which wouldn't have deleterious effects until you collapse the bubble (at which point it sends out a wave of Hawking radiation that's collected in the bow wave). Rather, Cochrane's warp drive appears to be dangerous to itself when too close to a gravitational source - not as badly as, say, Niven's hyperdrive, which causes the drive to sort of wrap around itself and disappear, but not good.
So if Trek science is so very consistent, which one is correct?
The problem with trying to use TMP to try and claim that TOS was self-inconsistent about warp drive use is that despite the fact that they had most of the original cast in it, it is not actually a part of the TOS era (that ended with the end of TAS). TMP and the rest of the movie era was, instead, for all practical purposes the prequel to the TNG era shows. And on top of that, it was done by an entirely different division: Paramount Pictures, not Paramount Television, and meant as a way to coattail Star Wars.
It was easy enough for Paramount to explain it off as (from an in-story perspective) revolutionary technological advancements like improved engines, shields, and weapons configurations (such as tying the phasers directly into the warp engine power system rather than the impulse engines) in the early 2270s necessitating new doctrine and techniques to handle it, in an attempt to avoid the fans marching on them with the proverbial pitchforks and torches.
As for your naval base analogy, it is invalid for a number of reasons:
First off, warp two is hardly "flank speed", it is a rather sedate slow cruising speed for a Constitution class.
Second, the reason that wet navy capital ships are towed out of dock instead of leaving under their own power is because the propwash is strong enough to seriously damage the dock foundations and tear up the shoreline behind the dock (it is kind of like using a water hose and sprayer to drill holes in dirt, and if pressurized enough even rock), and that would not happen with warp since it is not Alcubierre drive with its long leading and trailing distortions.
In fact, in theory the gravity-based impulse drive would be much more likely to cause serious (and wider-spread) damage than the unlikely chance of accidentally taking a piece of a station or whatever with the in the warp bubble, though it would be even worse yet if impulse drive was nailed down as the original idea of matter/antimatter emergency rockets (no need to use dilithium in that kind of reaction) since in theory such a reaction would generate a powerful gamma ray stream behind them as they left orbit.
Third, if you listen to Sulu calling off speeds during very hard warp acceleration (as in it sounds like a turbine ready to fly apart at any second) it turns out that their maximum acceleration is about 10% of lightspeed per second, so the analogy for the warp two exit from orbit is more like a car pulling out from being parked at the curb and gently accelerating to residential zone speeds. You seem to have fallen into the all-too-common trap of thinking of warp as being like a Star Wars-esque sudden jump to hyperspace.
One of the "official" explanations from Paramount for that Jupiter line was that the warp engines were untested and there was a danger of undesirable effects (like the wormhole they actually did produce, or worse) if anything went wrong and they did not want that to happen close to Earth and inner-system traffic. In any case, it can probably be safely ignored (since no other Trek show had that problem) as just another one-off gaff like the infamous "no turns in warp" nonsense in that one VOY episode when it was established in several series that they can turn faster in warp than they can at impulse.
As for your question, both onscreen evidence and behind the scenes information indicate that the answer is "none of the above". Warp does not cause the havoc that the Alcubierre drive does, nor does it collapse or twist like Niven's drive in a gravity well as shallow as a planet could reasonably produce. In fact, judging by the Klingons doing their star-skimming maneuvers it appears that unless you make the special adjustments it took a while for Spock to figure out for the time-light breakaway trick it is easily stable enough to go deep into a star's gravity well, and in fact it took an inadvertent very close encounter with a neutron star to cause the original gravity-interaction time travel accident. And iirc, Voyager even used the warp drive to escape a singularity's event horizon, or something to that effect.
Well, this is all fascinating, but I think we've strayed far afield of the thread topic.
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Well, they literally called the new Excelsior-class the Excelsior II, so...Neo-Constitution isn't a stretch.
The differences between them, is the visual look, one looks better with an improved design, while the other looks...a major degrade in design. Since I spoke briefly with the designer on FB, not in depth about it.
This is what CBS/Paramount wants...well, they can have it.
yeah, it's like the fugly Galaxy Class1701-D. An insult to the original Matt Jeffries design of the still iconic/original 1701 'Starship Class' <--- I loathed the Galaxy Class design when I first saw it in 1987, and my opinion of it hasn't changed. If Paramount had instead used the Probert design for what ultimately became the Ambassador Class in TNG for the 1701-D design, I might have warmed to TNG sooner.
What is actually going here, is licensing. If CBS/Paramount made any New 'New' ship under Secret Hideout current contract. It belongs to them *SH*, not the former. Which messes with merchandising and the lot. The design is very Retro and not Modern...and I wonder why at first, why was it that way, and then I remembered, Paramount Film side, did not renew Film rights to Bad Robot, it was supposed to decrease further involvement, but somehow, by some wanky legal jargon, Secret Hideout got their mitts on the film rights, and the attempts to get funding for the movie side...did not bear fruit.
When this contract ends at some point, if the want for Trek is still felt, Paramount or CBS will attempt to go forward with a clean slate and with no further connections with BR/SH grubby claws. And by the way, I believe this month is the Investor Earning call for Paramount, listen out for any mention for Trek stuff, if it help their bottom line. If no mention of them...that tells you what the true story is. Last year, they got no mention in anything.
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I'm in agreement. Folk really shouldn't be using TOS 'science' a barometer, as it changed week to week.
The differences between them, is the visual look, one looks better with an improved design, while the other looks...a major degrade in design. Since I spoke briefly with the designer on FB, not in depth about it.
This is what CBS/Paramount wants...well, they can have it.
yeah, it's like the fugly Galaxy Class1701-D. An insult to the original Matt Jeffries design of the still iconic/original 1701 'Starship Class' <--- I loathed the Galaxy Class design when I first saw it in 1987, and my opinion of it hasn't changed. If Paramount had instead used the Probert design for what ultimately became the Ambassador Class in TNG for the 1701-D design, I might have warmed to TNG sooner.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
TOS was really not as inconsistent as some people seem to think, they did an incredible job especially considering the number of outside writers they used (though it helped that a number of the outside writers were serious sci-fi novelists). It was not completely scientifically accurate or absolutely consistent of course, no show is, but it did a better job of it than the spinoffs have overall despite the all-too-common idea nowadays that it was somehow worse just because it was made so long ago.
Paramount Pictures really used impulse because Star Wars turned up an unexpectedly large viewership and wanted to cash in on that audience. Thing is, they knew they would get crucified by the Trekkies if they didn't at least try to maintain at least a token level of continuity, so they spun it as a change of doctrine because of the technical limitations of connecting the phasers to the warp drive instead of the impulse drive to get more power to them.
It never was a retcon, and when Paramount TV (essentially Desilu with new owners and a new name) did ENT they reinforced that fact with things like the Suliban strafing the NX-01 at warp then having Malcom and Tripp figure out how they did it late in the first season in the episode Fallen Hero and from that point onwards they fought in warp when it was appropriate though their crude and cranky warp drive was not up to doing it a lot of the time.
And all the series before NuTrek had at least a little fighting at warp, such as in the episode The Wounded where the USS Phoenix kills a Cardassian ship fleeting at its maximum warp along with its escort at a range of at least 250,000km using two different weapon systems (presumably photon torpedoes and phasers since it was a Federation ship) and a few chase battles now and then.
Also, in ENT they eventually started leaving orbit in warp just like in TOS, though not all the time. However, it can be supposed that they apparently either didn't have the tech, the technique, (or possibly) the confidence to do an orbital insertion using just warp drive at that point yet since they didn't seem to do that much, if at all.
So no, TOS is not "the oddball". It was firmly established in not just one, but two different series, that the technology supports using warp drive for a lot more than just a Star Wars style jump between scene locations, and that it is instead a matter of doctrine and protocol changing and adapting over time.
There was continuity with the characters, and the ship never changed her shape (although she did change her size, from a complement of "over 200" to "more than 400"), but that was about it.
And it is established canon that ships can't turn for treacle toffee whilst in warp, and the extreme vast majority of combat is done at impulse. It makes little, sorry, no tactical sense to fight at warp; in fact, it's practically suicide if you're the lead ship, when a considerable amount of power is diverted to the warp coils, a la TMP for example. The science of Star Trek improved with the times, and there is probably a good number of TNG era+ 'changes' that matched the current theories at the time.
Art, imitates life, imitates art, etc. etc.
Really? Go wath TOS S2 -The Ultimate Computer - and get back to me on how 'established' it is that Federation Starships don't turn at warp. It was also NEVER established that the 'majority of combat is done at Impulse'.
In fact TOS S2 Journey To Babel and TOS S3 Elaan of Troyius pretty much established the opposite, including the fact that you can have combat between a ship goping at Impulse, and the other ship going at better than Warp 7.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
AH, once again going to TOS science, which has been superceeded since. I did not say CAN'T turn. If you read further up the thread you'll see I already explained that turning whilst in warp is very hard to do, as in turning in treacle. Sorry, I don't have episode names burned into my head, but it's canon. "Faster than light, no left or right" as per STV.
And I have no idea what you mean with your second statement.
And yes, there is the curious case of the Phoenix Nebula Class, but it has since been superceeded.
I have seen every episode of TOS at least several dozen times, and in most episodes Kirk orders them to leave orbit at warp two. So yes, TOS did address whether you could go to warp from orbit in almost all of the episodes, they just did not technobabble about it like TNG and the other Berman era shows would have. Then of course there is the dialog in Elaan of Troyius that explicitly states that they almost never use impulse drive that supports that usage of warp from orbit.
Warp drive is not Alcubierre drive so it doesn't have to do the damage that the Alcubierre drive would theoretically do, and both TOS and ENT (not to mention other spinoffs where they occasionally used warp in a star system) plainly show that. Likewise, they have used warp while in deeper gravity wells than a planet can generate before, so there is nothing that would prevent leaving or entering orbit in warp (though in theory they would have to use some sort of thrust to adjust orbital altitude and whatnot unless "standard orbit" just means orbiting at a particular speed regardless of what altitude it would put them at, which is doubtful).
Out of curiosity, what continuity gaff is Omega Glory supposed to have besides the badge error? Sure, it suffers from the "it's another Earth" syndrome like all too many other episodes did but that is actually consistent with the rest of TOS so it is not a continuity problem in of itself and is no worse than the "it's another starfaring civilization that uses medieval farming practices and peasant clothing" thing that the Berman era shows overused.
As for the setting the ship's phasers to stun, why would that be a continuity issue? It is more likely that it is a classic case of Starfleet's love of fielding Swiss Army Knife gadgets instead of simpler focused solutions (see Kira's description of the finicky but flexible Federation phaser rifle compared to the rough and ready Cardassian disrupter rifle for a great example), preparing for possible situations that my rarely if ever come about just in case it may come in handy.
Considering that they mainly use phasers in ship to ship combat and as large-scale cutting tools it makes sense that they rarely ever use stun from ships as hardware and rocks cannot be stunned.
And as for phaser effects, at the time the load was too high to use any one VFX house so there were differences and (like every other production, not just TOS) occasional mistakes. That said, there has never been a rule that said phasers all have to have only one color, so TOS using multiple colors is likewise not an inconsistency.
In fact, since Roddenberry and Jefferies have both said on panels and interviews that the TOS Enterprise used track phasers that could be easily changed via the turbolift tubes the color thing would not even be an issue even if each particular phaser could not change color. And statistically (yes, someone actually counted them) they used red slightly more often than blue, blue was probably the more popular color since that is what color it was in the iconic 'poster shot' they used on things like the AMT model box and whatnot.
In Balance of Terror they were going to introduce the photon torpedo (it was always in the series bible, but unseen in the show itself to that point) but a script-checker thought they caught an error (an unknown weapon type) and "fixed" it by substituting the word "phaser" for it in the final shooting script. By the time they saw the error in the dailies it was too late to go back and reshoot without missing deadlines and running up an unacceptable extra cost (just like the badge error in The Omega Glory. Once that error was baked in it was no longer important whether they used phasers in beam mode or bolt mode continuity wise.
And yes, a few other times stun from orbit would possibly have come in handy, but most of those situations would have run afoul of the prime directive (in A Piece of the Action the cat was already out of the bag and a quick surgical strike as a demonstration was the best way to minimize the damage).
As for warp SFX, why would they use them? At the time they were not trying to emulate Star Wars to attract space opera and action movie fans like the movie era did, and ENT (not to mention other series) did not always show any special warp effect after they went to warp either.
On a practical production note, according to dialog in TOS they were almost always in warp when travelling, so it was in their interest to keep it simple since each pass through the triple-head compositors of the time added expense and lowered image quality. In-story, since they used a mainscreen and not a picture window the only sensible way to show space around the ship would be to correct any starbow or warp field bubble distortions, so it is not a useless jumble of pretty lights like it is in NuTrek.
And yes, Spock's Brain used that idiotic reference to 'advanced ion drive' nonsense but then again it was a horrible script overall, one of the truly low point episodes that any TV series has. Remember that I did mention the fact that occasionally they did succumb to the temptation to use terms and star names that even the non-science-nerds would recognize though it did not always make sense (and it is not like TOS was the only show to ever do that occasionally).
Other hand, in TMP they thought it would be risky to engage warp drive while inside Jupiter's orbit, which contradicts what you said. Also, it has nothing to do with Alcubierre-White warp, which wouldn't have deleterious effects until you collapse the bubble (at which point it sends out a wave of Hawking radiation that's collected in the bow wave). Rather, Cochrane's warp drive appears to be dangerous to itself when too close to a gravitational source - not as badly as, say, Niven's hyperdrive, which causes the drive to sort of wrap around itself and disappear, but not good.
So if Trek science is so very consistent, which one is correct?
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The problem with trying to use TMP to try and claim that TOS was self-inconsistent about warp drive use is that despite the fact that they had most of the original cast in it, it is not actually a part of the TOS era (that ended with the end of TAS). TMP and the rest of the movie era was, instead, for all practical purposes the prequel to the TNG era shows. And on top of that, it was done by an entirely different division: Paramount Pictures, not Paramount Television, and meant as a way to coattail Star Wars.
It was easy enough for Paramount to explain it off as (from an in-story perspective) revolutionary technological advancements like improved engines, shields, and weapons configurations (such as tying the phasers directly into the warp engine power system rather than the impulse engines) in the early 2270s necessitating new doctrine and techniques to handle it, in an attempt to avoid the fans marching on them with the proverbial pitchforks and torches.
As for your naval base analogy, it is invalid for a number of reasons:
First off, warp two is hardly "flank speed", it is a rather sedate slow cruising speed for a Constitution class.
Second, the reason that wet navy capital ships are towed out of dock instead of leaving under their own power is because the propwash is strong enough to seriously damage the dock foundations and tear up the shoreline behind the dock (it is kind of like using a water hose and sprayer to drill holes in dirt, and if pressurized enough even rock), and that would not happen with warp since it is not Alcubierre drive with its long leading and trailing distortions.
In fact, in theory the gravity-based impulse drive would be much more likely to cause serious (and wider-spread) damage than the unlikely chance of accidentally taking a piece of a station or whatever with the in the warp bubble, though it would be even worse yet if impulse drive was nailed down as the original idea of matter/antimatter emergency rockets (no need to use dilithium in that kind of reaction) since in theory such a reaction would generate a powerful gamma ray stream behind them as they left orbit.
Third, if you listen to Sulu calling off speeds during very hard warp acceleration (as in it sounds like a turbine ready to fly apart at any second) it turns out that their maximum acceleration is about 10% of lightspeed per second, so the analogy for the warp two exit from orbit is more like a car pulling out from being parked at the curb and gently accelerating to residential zone speeds. You seem to have fallen into the all-too-common trap of thinking of warp as being like a Star Wars-esque sudden jump to hyperspace.
One of the "official" explanations from Paramount for that Jupiter line was that the warp engines were untested and there was a danger of undesirable effects (like the wormhole they actually did produce, or worse) if anything went wrong and they did not want that to happen close to Earth and inner-system traffic. In any case, it can probably be safely ignored (since no other Trek show had that problem) as just another one-off gaff like the infamous "no turns in warp" nonsense in that one VOY episode when it was established in several series that they can turn faster in warp than they can at impulse.
As for your question, both onscreen evidence and behind the scenes information indicate that the answer is "none of the above". Warp does not cause the havoc that the Alcubierre drive does, nor does it collapse or twist like Niven's drive in a gravity well as shallow as a planet could reasonably produce. In fact, judging by the Klingons doing their star-skimming maneuvers it appears that unless you make the special adjustments it took a while for Spock to figure out for the time-light breakaway trick it is easily stable enough to go deep into a star's gravity well, and in fact it took an inadvertent very close encounter with a neutron star to cause the original gravity-interaction time travel accident. And iirc, Voyager even used the warp drive to escape a singularity's event horizon, or something to that effect.
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What is actually going here, is licensing. If CBS/Paramount made any New 'New' ship under Secret Hideout current contract. It belongs to them *SH*, not the former. Which messes with merchandising and the lot. The design is very Retro and not Modern...and I wonder why at first, why was it that way, and then I remembered, Paramount Film side, did not renew Film rights to Bad Robot, it was supposed to decrease further involvement, but somehow, by some wanky legal jargon, Secret Hideout got their mitts on the film rights, and the attempts to get funding for the movie side...did not bear fruit.
When this contract ends at some point, if the want for Trek is still felt, Paramount or CBS will attempt to go forward with a clean slate and with no further connections with BR/SH grubby claws. And by the way, I believe this month is the Investor Earning call for Paramount, listen out for any mention for Trek stuff, if it help their bottom line. If no mention of them...that tells you what the true story is. Last year, they got no mention in anything.