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Ten Forward Weekly 9/29/21

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  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 15,371 Arc User
    From what I've read on Reddit, Kael stated that they don't release as many C-store ships because they don't sell well.

    That's an.... interesting...statement.
  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 3,549 Arc User
    but that would still require work to maintain

    anyone else sense a terrible work ethic at cryptic? its like a running joke anymore about how things require work...
    meh

  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 4,944 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    but that would still require work to maintain

    anyone else sense a terrible work ethic at cryptic? its like a running joke anymore about how things require work...

    I think that was a bad/wrong answer, as everything requires work to maintain. I think the real/right answer is the people that actually knew how the foundry worked and maintained it were no longer with the company and for that reason they could no longer support it (not just in this game, but also in Neverwinter).

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 3,549 Arc User
    but that would still require work to maintain

    anyone else sense a terrible work ethic at cryptic? its like a running joke anymore about how things require work...

    I think that was a bad/wrong answer, as everything requires work to maintain. I think the real/right answer is the people that actually knew how the foundry worked and maintained it were no longer with the company and for that reason they could no longer support it (not just in this game, but also in Neverwinter).

    oh i agree it was a bad answer and way to present it, but look at a lot of the other bullet points...many reflect the same type of central wording that if it requires work, it sits...
    i mean...how long have many bugs been around that they just dont care to fix? we all get that money makes the server stay on and pays bills, but lets not be fooled they just dont want to do certain things, and the excuse is "it takes work."
    meh

  • lnbladelnblade Member Posts: 397 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    From what I've read on Reddit, Kael stated that they don't release as many C-store ships because they don't sell well.

    That's an.... interesting...statement.
    Most businesses would react to that by sending out surveys to their users to get some actual feedback that they can look at with their metrics. You know, so they can figure out how to improve the things that players are reacting negatively to, especially when it comes to a key component of their business model. Maybe incentivize survey participation by including an account unlock item or a bit of Zen as a thank you.

    But I guess they would rather stay the course and hope they stumble at random into something the players actually like.
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 4,944 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    but that would still require work to maintain

    anyone else sense a terrible work ethic at cryptic? its like a running joke anymore about how things require work...

    I think that was a bad/wrong answer, as everything requires work to maintain. I think the real/right answer is the people that actually knew how the foundry worked and maintained it were no longer with the company and for that reason they could no longer support it (not just in this game, but also in Neverwinter).

    oh i agree it was a bad answer and way to present it, but look at a lot of the other bullet points...many reflect the same type of central wording that if it requires work, it sits...
    i mean...how long have many bugs been around that they just dont care to fix? we all get that money makes the server stay on and pays bills, but lets not be fooled they just dont want to do certain things, and the excuse is "it takes work."

    I have a feeling* Kael is just giving a really bad explanation of (the thing in question) not meeting their return on investment threshold. In some cases they may actually want to do something (like make more bridges) but because they don't sell enough to justify they development cost, they don't. That is an actual business decision and has nothing to do with someone not wanting to do something because it takes "work". But the way he said it* (or at least the way it's written* in the summary) makes it sound like they just don't want to do "work".

    *I didn't actually get to listen to the stream so I'm not sure whether the fault was the person speaking or the person taking notes.
    Post edited by thegrandnagus1 on

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,750 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    but that would still require work to maintain

    anyone else sense a terrible work ethic at cryptic? its like a running joke anymore about how things require work...

    I think that was a bad/wrong answer, as everything requires work to maintain. I think the real/right answer is the people that actually knew how the foundry worked and maintained it were no longer with the company and for that reason they could no longer support it (not just in this game, but also in Neverwinter).

    oh i agree it was a bad answer and way to present it, but look at a lot of the other bullet points...many reflect the same type of central wording that if it requires work, it sits...
    i mean...how long have many bugs been around that they just dont care to fix? we all get that money makes the server stay on and pays bills, but lets not be fooled they just dont want to do certain things, and the excuse is "it takes work."

    Kael stated in a previous live stream that there are only 2 people doing the programing for Star Trek Online. These are the developers of course, there are other people doing the art and stuff like that, but as for maintaining things and introducing new systems and elements, there are 2 people that do all of it.

    There was some debate as to rather or not that's normal or not, I maintain that it's less then a skeleton crew for an ongoing and continually developed MMO. It's a fine amount for game that just gets a DLC or 2 every year, but for an MMO there are indy projects on Kickstarter with larger development teams then what Cryptic has devoted to Star Trek Online.

    To Cryptic's credit, they get a lot accomplished given the size of their studio, I am sure those two people work very hard and their efforts are to be applauded. Still, I find it a touch annoying that we hear on a constant basis how STO is more profitable now then ever, but the size of the team behind the game does not seem to grow. 'We don't have time' is a continuing theme and one that while I understand it, it's frustrating. I don't blame the Cryptic team for this, but I am not terribly confident in the executives that run the studio. It sounds like they could really use some help and they're not getting it. In the end, the game sadly suffers for it.

    As a note, I understand that all MMO teams regardless of size are struggling to manage time, there is always a ton to do on games like this and there are never enough people to do it even for very large studios. Still, 2 active developers just seems like far too few for a game of this size and scope.
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  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 4,944 Arc User
    Still, 2 active developers just seems like far too few for a game of this size and scope.

    Especially when they keep talking about how the game is having it's "best year ever" multiple years. Or maybe the minimal staff cost is part of why it's more profitable? Good questions, but not ones we are likely to get answers to.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 3,549 Arc User
    oh i get it sea...ive read your posts about this before after it was mentioned. dont get me wrong, the recent mission is one hell of a step up in many aspects and i really enjoy it, some of the small things are nice to see that they did.
    that itself shows they are capable of providing and doing great work, but given the often replies (regardless of whom is typing and saying) the wording seems to always be the same...it requires work. and it always seems to center around stuff they dont like, or dont want to fix.
    and also as grand says...best years to date...ok then...get some staff on board to fix stuff.
    but hey, we dont know TRIBBLE do we? its not like we get a bonus if we make a certain profit margin...
    meh

  • spielman1spielman1 Member Posts: 1,175 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    From what I've read on Reddit, Kael stated that they don't release as many C-store ships because they don't sell well.

    That's an.... interesting...statement.

    I'm not surprised by this when you take a ship of any kind that players want then stuff it in a pack that will cost over 200 plus dollars on the whole pay 24000 for this pack and or 6000 plus zen for a ship with a bunch of glut stuffed in it that you can get cheaper then expect players to do that and then go well ships don't sell cause no one is buying theme just proves to me the fact they know they made a mistake on that choice and wont admit it.
    That is all it does for me I'm not surprised players don't buy theme as when they first started doing that players complained about it and so closed that wallet and now they are like well we wont do this or that for ship releases they don't sell well I wonder why maybe stop charging 6000 for a single ship and bunch of glute in the pack that the players didn't ask for.
  • therealblackkaostherealblackkaos Member Posts: 121 Arc User
    If they think using a skeleton crew that’s maintaining the game in its current state is a “success”, then I think it’s time they think about selling it to a studio that’s going to make some real improvements because this ain’t it. Every time I read something from someone associated with them, it’s becoming apparent to me that as long as they have the “do less while expecting more” attitude, nothing will ever change. As a fan of pre-JJ Trek, it sucks (not bashing anything just my preference of shows/timelines/characters/etc). If someone came up with a similar game (with or without the IP), I’m sure many would have left a long time ago. But they know this isn’t the case so they can push the substandardness that they have been giving and blame everything and everyone but themselves. Either a housecleaning or sale is the only thing that will truly take this game forward instead of the “stuck in neutral with no care to move forward” lackadaisicalness that’s currently served up to the players that they expect to take it with a smile. Poo is still poo no matter how much sugar and honey you stir in it.
  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    but that would still require work to maintain

    anyone else sense a terrible work ethic at cryptic? its like a running joke anymore about how things require work...

    I think that was a bad/wrong answer, as everything requires work to maintain. I think the real/right answer is the people that actually knew how the foundry worked and maintained it were no longer with the company and for that reason they could no longer support it (not just in this game, but also in Neverwinter).

    oh i agree it was a bad answer and way to present it, but look at a lot of the other bullet points...many reflect the same type of central wording that if it requires work, it sits...
    i mean...how long have many bugs been around that they just dont care to fix? we all get that money makes the server stay on and pays bills, but lets not be fooled they just dont want to do certain things, and the excuse is "it takes work."

    Kael stated in a previous live stream that there are only 2 people doing the programing for Star Trek Online. These are the developers of course, there are other people doing the art and stuff like that, but as for maintaining things and introducing new systems and elements, there are 2 people that do all of it.

    There was some debate as to rather or not that's normal or not, I maintain that it's less then a skeleton crew for an ongoing and continually developed MMO. It's a fine amount for game that just gets a DLC or 2 every year, but for an MMO there are indy projects on Kickstarter with larger development teams then what Cryptic has devoted to Star Trek Online.

    To Cryptic's credit, they get a lot accomplished given the size of their studio, I am sure those two people work very hard and their efforts are to be applauded. Still, I find it a touch annoying that we hear on a constant basis how STO is more profitable now then ever, but the size of the team behind the game does not seem to grow. 'We don't have time' is a continuing theme and one that while I understand it, it's frustrating. I don't blame the Cryptic team for this, but I am not terribly confident in the executives that run the studio. It sounds like they could really use some help and they're not getting it. In the end, the game sadly suffers for it.

    As a note, I understand that all MMO teams regardless of size are struggling to manage time, there is always a ton to do on games like this and there are never enough people to do it even for very large studios. Still, 2 active developers just seems like far too few for a game of this size and scope.


    I would say that there are two problems here. One Cryptic is based in California with notoriously high cost of living issues and taxes. How much would they save by moving to Texas or another pro business state?

    Two, the manpower issue is time and again evidence that there is not any reinvestment into the company. So either they are surviving on thin profit margins, or their profits are not going to expand and add more developers to do more things for the game, they seem to simply pay X amount of devs to do as much as they can while the profit goes into PWE pockets or whomever.
  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 3,549 Arc User
    but that would still require work to maintain

    anyone else sense a terrible work ethic at cryptic? its like a running joke anymore about how things require work...

    I think that was a bad/wrong answer, as everything requires work to maintain. I think the real/right answer is the people that actually knew how the foundry worked and maintained it were no longer with the company and for that reason they could no longer support it (not just in this game, but also in Neverwinter).

    oh i agree it was a bad answer and way to present it, but look at a lot of the other bullet points...many reflect the same type of central wording that if it requires work, it sits...
    i mean...how long have many bugs been around that they just dont care to fix? we all get that money makes the server stay on and pays bills, but lets not be fooled they just dont want to do certain things, and the excuse is "it takes work."

    Kael stated in a previous live stream that there are only 2 people doing the programing for Star Trek Online. These are the developers of course, there are other people doing the art and stuff like that, but as for maintaining things and introducing new systems and elements, there are 2 people that do all of it.

    There was some debate as to rather or not that's normal or not, I maintain that it's less then a skeleton crew for an ongoing and continually developed MMO. It's a fine amount for game that just gets a DLC or 2 every year, but for an MMO there are indy projects on Kickstarter with larger development teams then what Cryptic has devoted to Star Trek Online.

    To Cryptic's credit, they get a lot accomplished given the size of their studio, I am sure those two people work very hard and their efforts are to be applauded. Still, I find it a touch annoying that we hear on a constant basis how STO is more profitable now then ever, but the size of the team behind the game does not seem to grow. 'We don't have time' is a continuing theme and one that while I understand it, it's frustrating. I don't blame the Cryptic team for this, but I am not terribly confident in the executives that run the studio. It sounds like they could really use some help and they're not getting it. In the end, the game sadly suffers for it.

    As a note, I understand that all MMO teams regardless of size are struggling to manage time, there is always a ton to do on games like this and there are never enough people to do it even for very large studios. Still, 2 active developers just seems like far too few for a game of this size and scope.


    I would say that there are two problems here. One Cryptic is based in California with notoriously high cost of living issues and taxes. How much would they save by moving to Texas or another pro business state?

    Two, the manpower issue is time and again evidence that there is not any reinvestment into the company. So either they are surviving on thin profit margins, or their profits are not going to expand and add more developers to do more things for the game, they seem to simply pay X amount of devs to do as much as they can while the profit goes into PWE pockets or whomever.

    they have stated many are working from home. i dont know where they all live, but i thought some had been in texas. (could be wrong)

    as far as cost...stop paying actor fees for VOs and likenesses and do some side content for a change. update the specter series, get some ToS stuff going, allow players to choose using ToS SB1 or the newer ESD...hit some bugs and get those fixed...do some things the player base has been asking for...yada yada.

    obviously it hasnt been the best years for the game if all they have are two programmers.
    meh

  • solidshark214solidshark214 Member Posts: 254 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    From what I've read on Reddit, Kael stated that they don't release as many C-store ships because they don't sell well.

    That's an.... interesting...statement.

    ...What. Okay, maybe I'm not in the game enough to see a truly representative sample, but even now the majority of ships I see are C-store. Which is what you'd expect, really, since those are the ones actually accessible to the average player who doesn't have hundreds of [insert local currency here] to throw at a game.

    "Interesting" is the word for that statement, yes.
  • spielman1spielman1 Member Posts: 1,175 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    From what I've read on Reddit, Kael stated that they don't release as many C-store ships because they don't sell well.

    That's an.... interesting...statement.

    ...What. Okay, maybe I'm not in the game enough to see a truly representative sample, but even now the majority of ships I see are C-store. Which is what you'd expect, really, since those are the ones actually accessible to the average player who doesn't have hundreds of [insert local currency here] to throw at a game.

    "Interesting" is the word for that statement, yes.

    Same as i said interesting and then gave 1 reason why simply put the majority of players don't want to throw x amount of currency at the game for various reasons and some simply cant cause of IRL things that need be handled first.
    So interesting is a good description too that statement but also understanding why learning from it and changing your ways to better fit the majority of the community and the minority of it would help also.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,367 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    From what I've read on Reddit, Kael stated that they don't release as many C-store ships because they don't sell well.

    That's an.... interesting...statement.

    ...What. Okay, maybe I'm not in the game enough to see a truly representative sample, but even now the majority of ships I see are C-store. Which is what you'd expect, really, since those are the ones actually accessible to the average player who doesn't have hundreds of [insert local currency here] to throw at a game.


    You'd think that makes sense, yes, but not really. People want exotic/fancy ships (especially if they have to pay for them). Why pay for a mundane ship? Like I want shoes from Gucci, not from Walmart. :)
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,750 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    reyan01 wrote: »
    From what I've read on Reddit, Kael stated that they don't release as many C-store ships because they don't sell well.

    That's an.... interesting...statement.

    ...What. Okay, maybe I'm not in the game enough to see a truly representative sample, but even now the majority of ships I see are C-store. Which is what you'd expect, really, since those are the ones actually accessible to the average player who doesn't have hundreds of [insert local currency here] to throw at a game.

    "Interesting" is the word for that statement, yes.

    The sample size you're seeing is accurate.

    C-Store ships are the dominant type of ships that you will see just playing the game.

    The Lockbox/Promo ships are the money maker.

    Simply put, the Promo and lock box ships cost so much that the volume of C-Store ships isn't anywhere close to making up the difference. There is a very small percentage of the player base that spends the bulk of the money. These guys spend thousands on these ships, there are whales that have to have every new thing and will pay to get it. You see someone flying a C-Store ship, they paid at most $30USD for it. They more then likely bought it on sale or used a coupon from a giveaway event, but the most they spent is $30 (Assuming it's not a legendary.) Every 10 players you see is $300 assuming they paid full price.. one whale drops that much and more on a single ship and some of them collect every ship. One Whale can equal or exceed literally hundreds of casual players for revenue.

    One thing has become clear over the last few years, the 'everyday' player is not the target in STO. Lockbox, Promo and Legendary Bundles have pushed the focus squarely to the biggest spenders and that's where they will continue to focus. 'Regular' players are still important, they are needed because the Whales won't spend if they don't have anyone to lord their acquisitions over so the common player still has significance. If however, they are going to take the time to develop a ship, they would rather make a promo ship then a C-Store ship.

    Volume wise, C-Store ships will continue to be what you see the most. Whale bait ships will continue to be the cash cow.
    animated.gif
    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • corinthalascorinthalas Member Posts: 1,573 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    reyan01 wrote: »
    From what I've read on Reddit, Kael stated that they don't release as many C-store ships because they don't sell well.

    That's an.... interesting...statement.

    ...What. Okay, maybe I'm not in the game enough to see a truly representative sample, but even now the majority of ships I see are C-store. Which is what you'd expect, really, since those are the ones actually accessible to the average player who doesn't have hundreds of [insert local currency here] to throw at a game.

    "Interesting" is the word for that statement, yes.

    The sample size you're seeing is accurate.

    C-Store ships are the dominant type of ships that you will see just playing the game.

    The Lockbox/Promo ships are the money maker.

    Simply put, the Promo and lock box ships cost so much that the volume of C-Store ships isn't anywhere close to making up the difference. There is a very small percentage of the player base that spends the bulk of the money. These guys spend thousands on these ships, there are whales that have to have every new thing and will pay to get it. You see someone flying a C-Store ship, they paid at most $30USD for it. They more then likely bought it on sale or used a coupon from a giveaway event, but the most they spent is $30 (Assuming it's not a legendary.) Every 10 players you see is $300 assuming they paid full price.. one whale drops that much and more on a single ship and some of them collect every ship. One Whale can equal or exceed literally hundreds of casual players for revenue.

    One thing has become clear over the last few years, the 'everyday' player is not the target in STO. Lockbox, Promo and Legendary Bundles have pushed the focus squarely to the biggest spenders and that's where they will continue to focus. 'Regular' players are still important, they are needed because the Whales won't spend if they don't have anyone to lord their acquisitions over so the common player still has significance. If however, they are going to take the time to develop a ship, they would rather make a promo ship then a C-Store ship.

    Volume wise, C-Store ships will continue to be what you see the most. Whale bait ships will continue to be the cash cow.

    What's missing from this equation is what happens when there aren't enough of the 'average players' present in the game -- the whales lose interest and move on to something else. It's been shown many, many times, that free-to-play online games might be largely funded by its whales, but you can't keep whales around without a large enough population to make spending on the game feel 'worth it' to those whales. And STO is veering into dangerous territory for the retention of 'average players' these days.

    This is just another example of the bean counters in charge of Cryptic missing the forest for the trees.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,750 Arc User

    What's missing from this equation is what happens when there aren't enough of the 'average players' present in the game -- the whales lose interest and move on to something else. It's been shown many, many times, that free-to-play online games might be largely funded by its whales, but you can't keep whales around without a large enough population to make spending on the game feel 'worth it' to those whales. And STO is veering into dangerous territory for the retention of 'average players' these days.

    Very true, which is why I covered it in my original post.

    This is why we get the token number of C-Store releases every year. They do it to keep enough 'casual' players invested to give the Whales someone to show off to. The focus though has clearly shifted in recent years to high dollar 'big ticket' items that the average player has little to no chance to obtain.

    Many players even suggested higher C-Store prices if it gets rid of gamble boxes.. Cryptic instead.. just did both. The Gamble boxes are still here but now we have $300 packs in the C-Store.

    Yeah.. thanks guys. :lol:
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  • livinlifejb90#4082 livinlifejb90 Member Posts: 215 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    flame/doom post redacted - rattler
    Post edited by rattler2 on
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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 3,898 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    but that would still require work to maintain

    anyone else sense a terrible work ethic at cryptic? its like a running joke anymore about how things require work...

    I think that was a bad/wrong answer, as everything requires work to maintain. I think the real/right answer is the people that actually knew how the foundry worked and maintained it were no longer with the company and for that reason they could no longer support it (not just in this game, but also in Neverwinter).

    oh i agree it was a bad answer and way to present it, but look at a lot of the other bullet points...many reflect the same type of central wording that if it requires work, it sits...
    i mean...how long have many bugs been around that they just dont care to fix? we all get that money makes the server stay on and pays bills, but lets not be fooled they just dont want to do certain things, and the excuse is "it takes work."

    Kael stated in a previous live stream that there are only 2 people doing the programing for Star Trek Online. These are the developers of course, there are other people doing the art and stuff like that, but as for maintaining things and introducing new systems and elements, there are 2 people that do all of it.

    There was some debate as to rather or not that's normal or not, I maintain that it's less then a skeleton crew for an ongoing and continually developed MMO. It's a fine amount for game that just gets a DLC or 2 every year, but for an MMO there are indy projects on Kickstarter with larger development teams then what Cryptic has devoted to Star Trek Online.

    To Cryptic's credit, they get a lot accomplished given the size of their studio, I am sure those two people work very hard and their efforts are to be applauded. Still, I find it a touch annoying that we hear on a constant basis how STO is more profitable now then ever, but the size of the team behind the game does not seem to grow. 'We don't have time' is a continuing theme and one that while I understand it, it's frustrating. I don't blame the Cryptic team for this, but I am not terribly confident in the executives that run the studio. It sounds like they could really use some help and they're not getting it. In the end, the game sadly suffers for it.

    As a note, I understand that all MMO teams regardless of size are struggling to manage time, there is always a ton to do on games like this and there are never enough people to do it even for very large studios. Still, 2 active developers just seems like far too few for a game of this size and scope.


    I would say that there are two problems here. One Cryptic is based in California with notoriously high cost of living issues and taxes. How much would they save by moving to Texas or another pro business state?

    Two, the manpower issue is time and again evidence that there is not any reinvestment into the company. So either they are surviving on thin profit margins, or their profits are not going to expand and add more developers to do more things for the game, they seem to simply pay X amount of devs to do as much as they can while the profit goes into PWE pockets or whomever.

    Kael didn't say they only have two developers, he said they only have two programmers. What he had to have meant (in his usual poorly worded style) is that they only have two devs who code since in livestream they have shown a lot more than just two devs (especially 3D artists and story people) who are just as much devs as the programmers, the main difference is that they work with artwork, modeling, and scripting tools or database management tools rather than code editors and compilers.

    There is a lot more to developing and maintaining an MMO than just slinging code, there are a number of good videos on YouTube on the subject, including several whole courses, if you are curious.

    As for the California thing, moving to Texas would probably not help since California tends to be friendlier to both the entertainment industry and computer industry than a lot of other states (like Texas), and in this case headquartering in California has the added advantage of being relatively close to the CBS-Viacom offices in Burbank and LA whereas Texas is about as far as you can get from any of the CBS-Viacom offices in the US lower 48.
  • sennahcheribsennahcherib Member Posts: 2,823 Arc User
    There is a lot more to developing and maintaining an MMO than just slinging code, there are a number of good videos on YouTube on the subject, including several whole courses if you are curious.

    do you have links?
    thank you in advance, yes, i'm curious :p
  • qultuqqultuq Member Posts: 555 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    > @thegrandnagus1 said:
    > I have a feeling* Kael is just giving a really bad explanation of (the thing in question) not meeting their return on investment threshold. In some cases they may actually want to do something (like make more bridges) but because they don't sell enough to justify they development cost, they don't.

    I don’t think it is a question of meeting the development cost. Even if a bridge takes “as much time as a ship” That is still about 3,000 man hours at 30$ or so an hour—you only need to sell 3,000 over the life of the game to recoup the cost. That is a low threshold.

    The problem is you could make a bridge, a c-store ship, or say a Ledgendary Constellation class. And we know which of those options will likely make the company way more money over the life of the game.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,750 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    Kael didn't say they only have two developers, he said they only have two programmers.

    I am honestly not interested in debating terminology, Kael's example was pretty clear. He talked about adding or implementing a new system or feature into the game and talked about how there are 2 people that do that and one would have to be tasked to that specifically. I don't remember if he specifically said 'programmer' or 'developer' and it honestly doesn't matter. The programmers are part of the development team, and the example was clear.

    I'll give them credit, I don't envy those guys.. that's a lot of work for 2 people to do.

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    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 4,944 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    qultuq wrote: »
    The problem is you could make a bridge, a c-store ship, or say a Ledgendary Constellation class. And we know which of those options will likely make the company way more money over the life of the game.

    The people that make ships are not the same people that make environment maps (which is what a bridge is) so that comparison makes no sense.

    Back to my actual point: bridges sell very poorly, so they don't make them. It's not about them not "wanting to do the work", it's about bridges not justifying the work.

    Instead, they use their environment artists to do things like episodes/TFOs that actually get people to log in. Even though those aren't sold directly, when people log in they are more likely to buy things, so episodes/TFOs serve the purpose of bringing the customer to the "store"(which is what this game actually is) so hopefully they will buy something while they are here.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • qultuqqultuq Member Posts: 555 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    That’s a good point. But as you imply environment artists currently make nothing that is offered for sale—only things to “draw you into the game.”

    Let’s put it another way: you can hire a ship artist that will make you money or an environmental artist that makes you no money. Ship-hoursare still going to win out over environmental-hours regardless of how you frame the conversation.
  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 3,549 Arc User
    qultuq wrote: »
    That’s a good point. But as you imply environment artists currently make nothing that is offered for sale—only things to “draw you into the game.”

    Let’s put it another way: you can hire a ship artist that will make you money or an environmental artist that makes you no money. Ship-hoursare still going to win out over environmental-hours regardless of how you frame the conversation.

    aside from the fact there is little to do, due to lack of thought and imagination in using them, on a bridge, sure. but players have asked for bridges and interiors that can alter with the person to a degree.

    stop with legendary BS already and do some other stuff. the game wont falter if we dont see a legendary ship for 6 months or more.
    meh

  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 3,898 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    There is a lot more to developing and maintaining an MMO than just slinging code, there are a number of good videos on YouTube on the subject, including several whole courses if you are curious.

    do you have links?
    thank you in advance, yes, i'm curious :p

    The ones from Jason Weimann are good though a bit long and chaotic, and mostly from a programmer point of view (which is why I started watching them a wile ago). The more technical ones in the series are for a more modern engine (Unity) but these two are more general give the overall idea, and this one goes into depth on the differences between two of the main dev jobs (programmer and designer) and some of their subspecialties:


    This one gives a broader overview but is also rather long (even longer than the first one):


    As Weimann says at the end of the video he probably missed a job or two, and database management is one he did not go into as a specific thing (a lot of times it is split between the designer and programmer roles instead of being a separate thing) which is an important job because it impacts game responsiveness quite a bit. Hints in what Kael and others say in the livestreams and posts seem to indicate that most of the rubberbanding was caused by database lookup issues for instance (ESO had similar database problems that necessitated a major effort to clear up about a year or two ago).

    At this point so much of the backend work is already done that two programmers are probably kept quite busy but it is not an alarmingly low number either. Most of the new content work is done by the artists and designers, the programmers are mainly needed for systems that are totally new, working on bugs that can be traced to code instead of scripts, and polishing up the engine with new videocard features.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,750 Arc User

    qultuq wrote: »
    That’s a good point. But as you imply environment artists currently make nothing that is offered for sale—only things to “draw you into the game.”

    Let’s put it another way: you can hire a ship artist that will make you money or an environmental artist that makes you no money. Ship-hoursare still going to win out over environmental-hours regardless of how you frame the conversation.

    aside from the fact there is little to do, due to lack of thought and imagination in using them, on a bridge, sure. but players have asked for bridges and interiors that can alter with the person to a degree.

    stop with legendary BS already and do some other stuff. the game wont falter if we dont see a legendary ship for 6 months or more.

    I actually would have been cool with the Legendary Bloat bundles if they replaced Loot Boxes and gamble mechanics. Instead, they just added expensive bundles while still keeping the gamble boxes.

    As much as I hate to admit it, I understand why they don't do bridges anymore. I don't like it, but I get it. I just wish that I could use bridges I already have on any ship.
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    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • jennycolvinjennycolvin Member Posts: 1,088 Arc User
    qultuq wrote: »
    That’s a good point. But as you imply environment artists currently make nothing that is offered for sale—only things to “draw you into the game.”

    Let’s put it another way: you can hire a ship artist that will make you money or an environmental artist that makes you no money. Ship-hoursare still going to win out over environmental-hours regardless of how you frame the conversation.

    aside from the fact there is little to do, due to lack of thought and imagination in using them, on a bridge, sure. but players have asked for bridges and interiors that can alter with the person to a degree.

    stop with legendary BS already and do some other stuff. the game wont falter if we dont see a legendary ship for 6 months or more.

    I actually would have been cool with the Legendary Bloat bundles if they replaced Loot Boxes and gamble mechanics. Instead, they just added expensive bundles while still keeping the gamble boxes.

    As much as I hate to admit it, I understand why they don't do bridges anymore. I don't like it, but I get it. I just wish that I could use bridges I already have on any ship.

    That's the thing, though: they don't do bridges anymore because they were half-assed to begin with and so people stopped paying for them. So, while I understand why they don't get made anymore, the blame is certainly not on us.
    I don't expect to have a full housing system, but imagine how different things would be if they'd allowed us to customize our own quarters. Not even the proper bridge, just a room that would not appear in any cutscene and, as such, would bypass any and all excuses about how "we can't possibly account for every variation people make on the bridge to show each player the proper combination".
    But alas, we all know that THAT would not bring them any money - unless they started selling freaking decorations, like every other MMO out there, in which case they'd be all over it in a second - and so we have half-assed bridges and interiors.

    That said, the idea that I cannot use any bridge I have unlocked on my ship, regardless of what ship that actually is, makes no sense to me and all the reasoning about how "eh, but the bridge would not go with the ship you've chosen because it's too big/too small" are a moot point, since the ship's interior don't exist unless we go in there.
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    Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.

    Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
    - quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
    - quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
    - quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;

    Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
    Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
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