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Instead of the NX-01, wouldn't it have been more fun if...

...Enterprise had been say a crappy old frigate like the Franklin? Instead of Earth's first blah, blah, blah, Enterprise could have been a regular old Starfleet vessel, which has such amazing adventures that it made the name worth carrying down in history.

I suppose I'm just pining for a series that feels like Star Trek made me feeling when I was growing up, but without all the bells and whistles and CGI and political correctness gone made and really enjoyable...oh and episodic once more.
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,930 Arc User
    I think that ship has sailed and is never coming back. The Trek we know is still there, we just need to watch the re-runs. It has been usurped with Woke Trek.
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  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 15,371 Arc User
    kayajay wrote: »
    ...Enterprise had been say a crappy old frigate like the Franklin? Instead of Earth's first blah, blah, blah, Enterprise could have been a regular old Starfleet vessel, which has such amazing adventures that it made the name worth carrying down in history.

    I suppose I'm just pining for a series that feels like Star Trek made me feeling when I was growing up, but without all the bells and whistles and CGI and political correctness gone made and really enjoyable...oh and episodic once more.

    I guess you'll have to hope that 'Strange New Worlds' delivers on its promise in that case.

  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 3,898 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    I think that ship has sailed and is never coming back. The Trek we know is still there, we just need to watch the re-runs. It has been usurped with Woke Trek.

    I don't see what is so woke about NuTrek, if anything it is less socially aware than the traditional Treks, especially TOS which pushed the envelope of what was acceptable on TV at the time very hard, along with challenging a lot of stereotypes and social barriers in general. In fact that is doubly true since it was considered a "family show" which any sci-fi that was not flat out horror was categorized as back then.

    I suppose though that people who were not there in the 1960s and don't know its zeitgeist might not recognize that.
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,930 Arc User
    I suppose though that people who were not there in the 1960s and don't know its zeitgeist might not recognize that.

    I was there in the 60s and watched the show during its original run. It does not hold a candle to Woke Trek.

    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 36,862 Arc User
    You...might want to rethink that statement - a thing not holding a candle to another thing means the thing is WORSE than the other thing, not better.

    You literally just called 'woke trek' better than TOS, COMPLETELY contradicting your prior statement.​​
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,610 Arc User
    There was NEVER a time when Trek wasn't "woke". The closest you might come was when NBC refused to let TAS:"The Magicks of Megas-Tu" be literally about how Satan wasn't a bad guy per se. Starting from the very first pilot showing a woman (gasp!!) as first officer of a spacecraft, Star Trek has ALWAYS been "woke". Some episodes were more subtle than others (compare the supremacists of "Plato's Stepchildren" with the incredibly clumsy metaphors of "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield"), but the shows have never, ever shied away from pushing the political envelope for TV of its time.

    And how would the original Enterprise being a broken-down commercial ship have reminded you of old Trek? NCC-1701 was the pinnacle of starship design of her era, one of the twelve most powerful ships in Starfleet, fully capable of executing General Order 24 (the complete destruction of all life on a planet) - as they almost had to do at Eminiar VII.
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  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 3,549 Arc User
    i guess one could argue then the "severity" of how woke one sees each iteration of trek. (not sure if iteration is correct in this usage either - lol)

    meh

  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 54,836 Community Moderator
    I'd also like you guys to refrain from trying to divorce things from each other because of a personal dislike. Its all Star Trek. There's something for everyone. You may not like it, but someone else does.

    IMO referring to newer Trek shows as "Woke Trek" is almost as bad as using an acronym for a disease to refer to Discovery, and a form of gatekeeping. Trek is Trek, and is always going to spawn discussion and have people who like it and people who don't.
    jonsills wrote: »
    There was NEVER a time when Trek wasn't "woke". The closest you might come was when NBC refused to let TAS:"The Magicks of Megas-Tu" be literally about how Satan wasn't a bad guy per se. Starting from the very first pilot showing a woman (gasp!!) as first officer of a spacecraft, Star Trek has ALWAYS been "woke". Some episodes were more subtle than others (compare the supremacists of "Plato's Stepchildren" with the incredibly clumsy metaphors of "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield"), but the shows have never, ever shied away from pushing the political envelope for TV of its time.

    Pretty much true. The fact that the older stuff isn't seen as "woke" today is because those are older RL issues and not current. To us today... the idea of Number One being in a position of authority... we don't even bat an eye at because we accept that. Back then in the 1960s... that was almost blasphemy to even CONSIDER the idea of a woman with authority. And TOS even covered racism to a degree to. Not only with having a multi cultural crew, but with a whole epsiode revolving around a species discriminating against each other over which side of their body was black and white. Things that today we don't see as offensive because we've largely moved on from those RL issues today.

    If Voyager came out in the 60s, they would be as up in arms over Captain Janeway being a woman as some people are about a character's orientation today or whatever the current RL issues are.

    Times change. What was woke in the past is not today. What is woke today won't be in the future.

    Now... I will say some people push an agenda a little too far *cough*KennedyandStarWars*cough* but honestly you can't say that Trek never flirted with controvery.
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  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 9,566 Arc User
    edited September 2021
    Trek has always been pushing for change, greater acceptance, and increased rights for minorities.

    People today take mixed-race marriages like Spock's parents for granted, but that was illegal in much of the US until the Supreme Court ruled such laws unconstitutional in 1967, a year after TOS. His parents could have been jailed in much of the US, and Nurse Chapel's romantic interest was also illegal.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-miscegenation_laws_in_the_United_States

    I do think the writers can take social justice too far if they either beat the audience over the head with the obvious or let it get in the way of telling a good story. Neither of those were why I disliked large parts of the first season of Discovery. That was more about utter stupidity by the crew (like when Hugh decided to talk to Ash Tyler alone about his genetics without telling anyone, or recording any notes) and the "different" new Klingon makeup and ships.
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,930 Arc User
    You...might want to rethink that statement - a thing not holding a candle to another thing means the thing is WORSE than the other thing, not better.

    You literally just called 'woke trek' better than TOS, COMPLETELY contradicting your prior statement.​​

    No, I did not. I am simply expressing my own personal opinion. I really do not care for the newer Trek so much. I know disagreement is frowned upon here, but oh well. This new stuff is still Star Trek and I am sure there are a great many people who are enjoying it. More power to them and I am happy for them that they can enjoy it and hope they can continue to do so for many years to come.

    Personally, I do not find it all that enlightening, all that hopeful for a brighter future and I personally dislike what has been done with many of the characters, places, institutions etc. in these newer incarnations. I will continue to call it like I see it and to me, it is Woke Trek. You are more than welcome to disagree.

    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,930 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    IMO referring to newer Trek shows as "Woke Trek" is almost as bad as using an acronym for a disease to refer to Discovery, and a form of gatekeeping. Trek is Trek, and is always going to spawn discussion and have people who like it and people who don't.

    I am not gatekeeping. People can like or dislike whatever they want. More power to them and I am happy for whomever enjoys the newer incarnations of the IP.

    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 54,836 Community Moderator
    valoreah wrote: »
    I am not gatekeeping. People can like or dislike whatever they want. More power to them and I am happy for whomever enjoys the newer incarnations of the IP.

    Which begs the question of why call it anything other that Star Trek? By giving it another name, you're segregating it from the rest of the franchise. Like you said, people can like it or not. But the question comes up when a sparate name is assigned to it as if to divorce it from the rest of Trek.

    BTW... I'm not speaking as a mod. I'm speaking as a fellow forumite.
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,930 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Which begs the question of why call it anything other that Star Trek? By giving it another name, you're segregating it from the rest of the franchise. Like you said, people can like it or not. But the question comes up when a sparate name is assigned to it as if to divorce it from the rest of Trek.

    BTW... I'm not speaking as a mod. I'm speaking as a fellow forumite.

    That is a descriptor that works for me personally. You will note in my earlier post, I did say "This new stuff is still Star Trek."

    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,930 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    There was NEVER a time when Trek wasn't "woke".

    I believe there is a distinction between making a political statement in a rational, meaningful, non-disparaging way and some of the wokeisms of the modern day. Woke is not necessarily a compliment to me.

    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 3,549 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    There was NEVER a time when Trek wasn't "woke".

    I believe there is a distinction between making a political statement in a rational, meaningful, non-disparaging way and some of the wokeisms of the modern day. Woke is not necessarily a compliment to me.

    good way of putting it.
    meh

  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 3,898 Arc User
    edited September 2021
    valoreah wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    There was NEVER a time when Trek wasn't "woke".

    I believe there is a distinction between making a political statement in a rational, meaningful, non-disparaging way and some of the wokeisms of the modern day. Woke is not necessarily a compliment to me.


    The problem with using "woke" to describe something like Trek is that it has conflicting definitions which obscure the point the user is trying to make. The traditional usage of the term just means either "awake" in a literal sense of not being sleepy or "awakened" as in "aware" (usually in a social sense). It has been appropriated for all sorts of other things that often have little relation to the original meanings.

    I am more used to hearing it in the traditional usage and assumed you were using it in the "socially aware" sense rather than the vague, debased epithet version that is more or less just a synonym for "social justice signaling" or "extreme left" you are apparently using it as.

    I don't see how the epithet version really applies to NuTrek that much either though.

    Traditional Trek (TOS especially) was soft sci-fi (meaning the science part of the term refers to the soft sciences, such as the various social sciences and the like) and pushed for equality and freedom, driven by Roddenberry's strong humanist beliefs.

    NuTrek on the other hand is rather blandly generic space opera, to the degree that it is sort of like Fast and Furious in space and is almost entirely centered around the SFX gags and other eyecandy, and does not really have an active agenda. Rather it just coasts along, painting entirely within the lines of current generic Hollywood storytelling trends as the filler between the SFX it centers around.

    To be fair though, the social issues in DSC, while they don't generally go as deep in as the traditional Treks, might be more noticeable since Kurtzman's style is not at all subtle, and the melodramatic format the show uses is rather clumsy, so it generally sticks out like it did in some of the most awkward and preachiest TOS episodes like Let That Be Your Last Battlefield.

  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,571 Arc User
    NuTrek [...] does not really have an active agenda.

    The people who call it "woke" say that because they feel Burnham is a "Mary Sue", or because they don't like how prominent characters like Stamets, Dr Culber, Adira, and Gray are and feel that that "isn't Trek" even though Star Trek has ALWAYS celebrated diversity since the very beginning.
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  • annemarie30annemarie30 Member Posts: 2,160 Arc User
    there is a difference between celebrating diversity and having it shoved down your throat at every turn. but the solution is easy. choose not to watch it. I watched season 1 which was ok. I liked season 2 because the actor playing Pike really gave me the Jeffery hunter vibe. season three was horribad. i won't watch season 4.

    that said, to the OP, there was a novel and I cannot remember the title, but there was a reference to Gene Roddenberry launching a new star trek (the novel was before TNG) featuring a ship of the second line, I.E. a lower decks ship, or as you said, a crappy frigate. I still wonder to this day if Berman read that book, and when they were looking at the series after DS-9, developed Voyager. Voyager wasn't "crappy", but she is very much a smaller less capable ship
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  • sennahcheribsennahcherib Member Posts: 2,823 Arc User
    NuTrek [...] does not really have an active agenda.

    The people who call it "woke" say that because they feel Burnham is a "Mary Sue", or because they don't like how prominent characters like Stamets, Dr Culber, Adira, and Gray are and feel that that "isn't Trek" even though Star Trek has ALWAYS celebrated diversity since the very beginning.

    thx I just learned the expression "mary sue", interesting btw :p
    I don't like Burnham for the opposite reason, I like her when she's badass, but I don't like this character when he is a crybaby, that means 70% of the time. There are too many crybabies in discovery. (In french we have more words/expression for this kind of attitude but I don't know their translation: ouin-ouin, cul cul la praline etc)

    But, Star Trek evolves with its era (evolution of the society and mankind), and this is why these shows are interesting even with some crappy content or unpleasant characters.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 54,836 Community Moderator
    Voyager wasn't "crappy", but she is very much a smaller less capable ship

    I wouldn't say Voyager was less capable. She had capabilities that other ships we are familiar with didn't (Astmospherice capability). Not only that she was outfitted with cutting edge technology at the time like the Bio-Neural Gel Packs.

    She got gimped by circumstance, having part of the crew killed when she was thrown into the Delta Quadrant when she was pretty much only equipped for a short mission. Voyager pretty much proved how versitile the Intrepid class could be, lasting seven years on her own.
    The people who call it "woke" say that because they feel Burnham is a "Mary Sue"...

    The problem with that though... is that Burnham isn't perfect at all. She literally failed right off the bat. If anyone can be considered a Mary Sue... its Rey in The Force Awakens. Being able to pull off things that even Luke Skywalker struggled with WITHOUT any training? Yea... Rey was FAR more a Mary Sue than Michael Burnham.
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  • kayajaykayajay Member Posts: 1,990 Arc User
    I would give ANYTHING to go back and sneak an episode of Voyager onto television in the 1960's. Obviously you'd have people aghast, but the special effects of the day and also, if it was one of Janeway's greatest, like Deadlock or Year Of Hell...ooh.
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,930 Arc User
    edited September 2021
    The people who call it "woke" say that because they feel Burnham is a "Mary Sue", or because they don't like how prominent characters like Stamets, Dr Culber, Adira, and Gray are and feel that that "isn't Trek" even though Star Trek has ALWAYS celebrated diversity since the very beginning.

    I cannot speak for everyone, however for me personally this statement is not only ignorant, it is utterly and completely wrong and could not be farther from the truth. I have absolutely no issue with women, women of color or LGBTQ characters on the show. I welcome them. I completely agree those who do take issue with these things are ignorant and quite frankly do not understand the history of Star Trek.

    What I do take offense to is how the worst (not best) parts of these modern "woke" agendas are being integrated into Star Trek to make it more grimdark and pervert the sense of optimism and hope for a better future into something dark and dismal.

    I watched a video recently that gave a few good examples of this. Compare and contrast how Reg Barclay was treated by the crew on TNG versus how Edward was treated in the short Trek "The Trouble with Edward". Despite his awkwardness, Picard encouraged his crew to get to know Barclay, find a way to help him make a positive contribution and work with him. This ultimately worked and the crew were able to bring out the best in Barclay who became one of the most valued crew members. Contrast this with how the character of Edward Larkin was treated by his Captain. He was basically shown to be useless, irredeemable and berated. He is not worth the effort and it is easier to just get rid of him than to work with him. This is a more modern take in that one character has to be torn down to elevate another.

    Another is contrasting how artificial life was treated and respected in episodes like TNG in "Measure of a Man" and Voyager "Author, Author". Contrast this with how poorly androids/synths are treated in Picard. You could also look at how Seven of Nine went from wanting to preserve and protect life to mindlessly blowing people away on Picard.

    These changes are not improvements nor are they Star Trek to me personally. This is not something that is unique to Star Trek either. Many of films and television programs today are affected by this.

    It is truly unfortunate to see in my opinion. You are welcome to disagree.

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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,930 Arc User
    The problem with using "woke" to describe something like Trek is that it has conflicting definitions which obscure the point the user is trying to make.

    I do not find it confusing at all. Like anything, there is both good and bad. The good bits of "woke" culture I do not really consider being "woke". These are more being a decent human being and respecting others. The worst bits are what I would use "woke" to describe.
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  • livinlifejb90#4082 livinlifejb90 Member Posts: 215 Arc User
    edited September 2021
    there is a difference between celebrating diversity and having it shoved down your throat at every turn.

    Oh you mean like how heterosexuality is shoved down our thropat with every form of media? but two homosexual characters is apparently going too far? Please. And the people calling diversity "woke" are the people this franchise wasn't created for. And are frankly, not very good people. Like c'mon guys, you're barely trying to hide it anymore. Just own how hateful you are and stop trying to seem intellectual about it.
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,930 Arc User
    Oh you mean like how heterosexuality is shoved down our thropat with every form of media? but two homosexual characters is apparently going too far? Please. And the people calling diversity "woke" are the people this franchise wasn't created for. And are frankly, not very good people. Like c'mon guys, you're barely trying to hide it anymore. Just own how hateful you are and stop trying to seem intellectual about it.

    You do realize you are doing the very same thing here you are criticizing others for?

    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • livinlifejb90#4082 livinlifejb90 Member Posts: 215 Arc User
    edited September 2021
    valoreah wrote: »
    Oh you mean like how heterosexuality is shoved down our thropat with every form of media? but two homosexual characters is apparently going too far? Please. And the people calling diversity "woke" are the people this franchise wasn't created for. And are frankly, not very good people. Like c'mon guys, you're barely trying to hide it anymore. Just own how hateful you are and stop trying to seem intellectual about it.

    You do realize you are doing the very same thing here you are criticizing others for?

    not even worth it. but no, im not. Calling out hypocrisy and calling out others thinly veiled bigotry is not the same thing. but anyway, im not going to engage with you any further because i know exactly what i'll get, and i don't need that kind of energy.
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,930 Arc User
    not even worth it. but no, im not. Calling out hypocrisy and calling out others thinly veiled bigotry is not the same thing. but anyway, im not going to engage with you any further because i know exactly what i'll get, and i don't need that kind of energy.

    Calling out angry comments with an angry comment of your own is a bit hypocritical too. Just saying.

    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,610 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    Oh you mean like how heterosexuality is shoved down our thropat with every form of media? but two homosexual characters is apparently going too far? Please. And the people calling diversity "woke" are the people this franchise wasn't created for. And are frankly, not very good people. Like c'mon guys, you're barely trying to hide it anymore. Just own how hateful you are and stop trying to seem intellectual about it.

    You do realize you are doing the very same thing here you are criticizing others for?
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,930 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    That doesn't make him wrong, though...

    Never suggested he was.

    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 2,998 Arc User
    I liked Enterprise the way it was.

    Also because I don't believe it to have been that episodic. There were clear themes and arcs that returned for most of the series.
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