In looking back at the Story Arcs involving J'ula and the Disco era I came to realize something. That Disco era characters are without question the dumbest yet simultaneously self righteous fools in STO. With the Federation Disco characters being among the worst.
Look back on it all and calculate out how many lives would have been saved by letting the idiot Ellen Landry die on the Buran? Little Miss "I am Starfleet! We can't let mass murderers die! So I must rescue A'kar to show how much better we are!" uh huh... And that somewhat pales in the face of Michael Burnham in The Measure of Morality. "No Obisek (or Rommie Player Character) You must not kill Hakeev, because WE'RE STARFLEET! And it's much better to unleash time traveling Borg Iconians on the Universe that it is to kill one pyschotic mass murdering nutcase. Because killing is wrong!" Actually looking back at those missions I suddenly understand why J'ula wants to kill everybody. To meet those morons is to want them and anything connected to them dead.
My Romulan alt wanted to kill Excalbian Hakeev and be done with it it, Excalbian Burnham interference put my Romulan in a rock or a hard place, there's no way I'm giving up a powerful asset like Obisek, like what happened to the Prime Directive specifically the part about not interfering with other species cultures.
I suppose the biggest question is if Stamets ever got around to telling J'ula you risk all life that ever existed in every strand of possibility everytime you fire the rift weapon, which increases the potential body count though not actual.
As a Romulan character she does threaten to surrender since the Republic will of course end up enslaved to the Klingon Empire, which isn't a civilian death but is a pretty large scope.
Probably opening a rift on a civilian city is the most direct war crime, though. I'm sort of surprised she didn't drop one on First City as she was running away at the start of the civil war.
Fate - protects fools, small children, and ships named Enterprise Will Riker
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My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
I suppose the biggest question is if Stamets ever got around to telling J'ula you risk all life that ever existed in every strand of possibility everytime you fire the rift weapon, which increases the potential body count though not actual.
As a Romulan character she does threaten to surrender since the Republic will of course end up enslaved to the Klingon Empire, which isn't a civilian death but is a pretty large scope.
Probably opening a rift on a civilian city is the most direct war crime, though. I'm sort of surprised she didn't drop one on First City as she was running away at the start of the civil war.
"IDK what to tell you, you see soon... The tables will turn once I pull out my reverse uno card on the Klingon Empire, the Klingons are merely dumb brutes that lack the superior brain capacity and the subtly of a Romulan, Our undercover Operatives are already 10 steps ahead with the plan to convert the Klingon Empire into our own Star Empire, while they have been fighting amongst themselves during their silly Civil War, We took the ample opportunity to stage a coup from right under their noses. MWAHAHAHA!"
I suppose the biggest question is if Stamets ever got around to telling J'ula you risk all life that ever existed in every strand of possibility everytime you fire the rift weapon, which increases the potential body count though not actual.
As a Romulan character she does threaten to surrender since the Republic will of course end up enslaved to the Klingon Empire, which isn't a civilian death but is a pretty large scope.
Probably opening a rift on a civilian city is the most direct war crime, though. I'm sort of surprised she didn't drop one on First City as she was running away at the start of the civil war.
J'Ula never opened a rift on a civilian city, that was Aakar, and she was not at all happy about him doing it.
> @phoenixc#0738 said: > J'Ula never opened a rift on a civilian city, that was Aakar, and she was not at all happy about him doing it.
She still took responsibility until a knife was to her neck, and made no motion or communique in a week on the issue, she was perfectly happy to be known about it until someone could punish her for it.
Fate - protects fools, small children, and ships named Enterprise Will Riker
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
so in essence it has been surmised that she only killed about 6 people? that others around her may have taken actions on their own merits but had her as the scape goat.
so 6 people among a gazillion....maybe there was a targ in there when she was a kid.
She did kill a lot of innocents when she destroyed a federation starbase. Families, most likely children as well all killed by her. She's a terrorist, pure and simple.
Most military bases generally have families of personnel on-site, don't they? If they get attacked during a war, there's a high chance of them getting killed - now, a smart commander will evacuate them when their nation declares war so that chance drops to zero, but that doesn't always happen, as preemptive strikes and sneak attacks are a thing - whether they're legal things is another matter - but no combatant gets in major trouble (Obviously, any combatant who ends up killing a civilian still ends up under investigation because even accidental deaths are considered VERY big deals for most modern militaries, but those tend to end with the defendant(s) getting off far lighter than one accused of causing deliberate civilian deaths) for accidental civilian deaths - only if they deliberately go out of their way to target and wound or kill non-combatants.
Of course, the rules of war only apply when there actually IS a war, and there wasn't - J'ula's war of the 2250s ended in that same period, and as I pointed out above, she arrived in 2409 and everything involving her took place in 2410/11 - there's no way she wouldn't have learned that war had ended long ago, and she never did anything during the 2390s-2410 Federation-Klingon war either (As of yet - I'm sure Cryptic will probably slip something into the early story once those yanked Klingon War missions return.) - every action she took was AFTER the ceasefire and eventual armistice and as those tend to be VERY big deals when they happen, there's also no way she wouldn't have known about that - she also doesn't have the authority or legitimacy of government to declare any sort of war, and even if she did, the Federation never reciprocated.
I still wouldn't call her a terrorist, though, because she was very careful to avoid indiscriminate attacks against civilians as much as klingonly possible - Akaar, however, is very much one, because he DELIBERATELY deployed a weapon of mass destruction against a civilian population at Qu'Vat.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
so in essence it has been surmised that she only killed about 6 people? that others around her may have taken actions on their own merits but had her as the scape goat.
so 6 people among a gazillion....maybe there was a targ in there when she was a kid.
She did kill a lot of innocents when she destroyed a federation starbase. Families, most likely children as well all killed by her. She's a terrorist, pure and simple.
and as discussed a SB is considered a military target. not her concern if families are within the walls of said target.
sorry, but given the details, history, and posts here, any loss of life was on behalf of war actions.
Its not a military base. I think you've forgotten that despite Starfleet sometimes functioning as a military it is not actually a military. Its extremely frequent for families and innocent people to just live on starbases and ships operated by starfleet. The Enterprise D even had some aboard itself. There was likely many maaany innocent people living aboard that starbase going about their lives when they were murdered in a terrorist attack.
Most military bases generally have families of personnel on-site, don't they? If they get attacked during a war, there's a high chance of them getting killed - now, a smart commander will evacuate them when their nation declares war so that chance drops to zero, but that doesn't always happen, as preemptive strikes and sneak attacks are a thing - whether they're legal things is another matter - but no combatant gets in major trouble (Obviously, any combatant who ends up killing a civilian still ends up under investigation because even accidental deaths are considered VERY big deals for most modern militaries, but those tend to end with the defendant(s) getting off far lighter than one accused of causing deliberate civilian deaths) for accidental civilian deaths - only if they deliberately go out of their way to target and wound or kill non-combatants.
Of course, the rules of war only apply when there actually IS a war, and there wasn't - J'ula's war of the 2250s ended in that same period, and as I pointed out above, she arrived in 2409 and everything involving her took place in 2410/11 - there's no way she wouldn't have learned that war had ended long ago, and she never did anything during the 2390s-2410 Federation-Klingon war either (As of yet - I'm sure Cryptic will probably slip something into the early story once those yanked Klingon War missions return.) - every action she took was AFTER the ceasefire and eventual armistice and as those tend to be VERY big deals when they happen, there's also no way she wouldn't have known about that - she also doesn't have the authority or legitimacy of government to declare any sort of war, and even if she did, the Federation never reciprocated.
I still wouldn't call her a terrorist, though, because she was very careful to avoid indiscriminate attacks against civilians as much as klingonly possible - Akaar, however, is very much one, because he DELIBERATELY deployed a weapon of mass destruction against a civilian population at Qu'Vat.
(What's going on with quotes now? Why is there a scroll bar? This is making it much harder to actually read what I'm quoting as I'm typing)
She would be considered a terrorist for her actions even if she didn't directly target civilians. You can be a terrorist and still only attack military targets. She made an attack when there wasn't a war and was responsible for the deaths of military and civilian personal. We're just so used to terrorists irl focusing on civilian targets but it is entirely possible for one to be a terrorist and just attack a military base or person
The legal definition of terrorism as given by Merriam-Webster is 'the unlawful use or threat of violence especially against the state or the public as a politically motivated means of attack or coercion' - what were her stated political motivations against the Federation? She very likely had some, but I don't recall her ever voicing them - not during Andoria, Imaga or Beta Lankal and probably not Ceron or Seedea (These last two I'm unsure of, because I've only done those patrols a small handful of times.).
As far as I could tell, the attacks against Starfleet targets were just a means to an end - most of her politically-motivated demands were in KLINGON-held systems, which would make her a terrorist in their eyes, assuming they use the same definition - which they probably don't. But then again, the Human definition probably isn't the same that far in the future either.
Actually...have any Federation or Starfleet personnel in STO ever actually called J'Ula a terrorist? I think Quinn called her a renegade in a few briefings, but that's a vastly different label.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
so in essence it has been surmised that she only killed about 6 people? that others around her may have taken actions on their own merits but had her as the scape goat.
so 6 people among a gazillion....maybe there was a targ in there when she was a kid.
She did kill a lot of innocents when she destroyed a federation starbase. Families, most likely children as well all killed by her. She's a terrorist, pure and simple.
and as discussed a SB is considered a military target. not her concern if families are within the walls of said target.
sorry, but given the details, history, and posts here, any loss of life was on behalf of war actions.
Its not a military base. I think you've forgotten that despite Starfleet sometimes functioning as a military it is not actually a military. Its extremely frequent for families and innocent people to just live on starbases and ships operated by starfleet. The Enterprise D even had some aboard itself. There was likely many maaany innocent people living aboard that starbase going about their lives when they were murdered in a terrorist attack.
and yet it is a military. ranks, uniforms, weapons, and so much more. i mean, if you want to go around and carry a banner that its not, then i wont stop you, but given all the stuff in this game, most of the shows, etc, it functions in military fashion.
so, a SB is a target. regardless of whom may be inside its walls. in fact, as stated, many current military bases have civilians within the walls as well. are those not military bases then? are they not subject to being targeted just because they have civilians within? nay.
I think you're missing the point. You don't get to go bomb any random military base because you feel like it. She simply blew it up for her own agenda.
Military or not, no one in that base was a combatant because there was no war.
The Islamic terrorists that have shot up a few bases in the US are not somehow okay because they shoot up a military base. They are terrorists shooting defenseless targets (oddly enough) who are non-combatants. People are dead, they were murdered.
Why Andoria, though? If her only reason was collecting spores, it shouldn't matter WHERE the rift is opened, as any part of the Mycelial Network should have spores for harvesting - she could have opened one within the safety of...whatever system House Mo'kai still controls instead of going practically to the heart of her enemy's space.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
so in essence it has been surmised that she only killed about 6 people? that others around her may have taken actions on their own merits but had her as the scape goat.
so 6 people among a gazillion....maybe there was a targ in there when she was a kid.
She did kill a lot of innocents when she destroyed a federation starbase. Families, most likely children as well all killed by her. She's a terrorist, pure and simple.
and as discussed a SB is considered a military target. not her concern if families are within the walls of said target.
sorry, but given the details, history, and posts here, any loss of life was on behalf of war actions.
Its not a military base. I think you've forgotten that despite Starfleet sometimes functioning as a military it is not actually a military. Its extremely frequent for families and innocent people to just live on starbases and ships operated by starfleet. The Enterprise D even had some aboard itself. There was likely many maaany innocent people living aboard that starbase going about their lives when they were murdered in a terrorist attack.
and yet it is a military. ranks, uniforms, weapons, and so much more. i mean, if you want to go around and carry a banner that its not, then i wont stop you, but given all the stuff in this game, most of the shows, etc, it functions in military fashion.
so, a SB is a target. regardless of whom may be inside its walls. in fact, as stated, many current military bases have civilians within the walls as well. are those not military bases then? are they not subject to being targeted just because they have civilians within? nay.
I think you're missing the point. You don't get to go bomb any random military base because you feel like it. She simply blew it up for her own agenda.
Military or not, no one in that base was a combatant because there was no war.
The Islamic terrorists that have shot up a few bases in the US are not somehow okay because they shoot up a military base. They are terrorists shooting defenseless targets (oddly enough) who are non-combatants. People are dead, they were murdered.
equating a game to real life scenarios will allow you to lose all the time mate. stop the comparisons of terrorism to the game.
and no, im not missing the point, i think you are. if SF thinks they are not at war, thats on them, however, if the klinks feel they are, then all actions are justified based on that fact.
both, or all parties do not need to declare war in order for war to be established. one side can declare war, and if the other side tosses hands in the air, as if to say no, then that doesnt negate the declaration by the one side.
base or not, civilians or not, war or not, police action or not, a target is a target no matter the result of the action taken.
if you want to get into semantics of lessoning non-combat persons, then fine, but just because SF wasnt at war doesnt mean no one else is.
to add, if SF isnt a military construct, then why the hell are we blowing TRIBBLE up all the time?
I don't think anybody can deny that Starfleet has military responsibilities.
But as I said before: Starbases aren't just or even primarily military installations. Those bases have tons of functions.
That's also why the comparison with real life military bases aren't very good ones. In real life, a military base is a military base. They're not (primarily) created to support trade, facilitate diplomacy, to serve as repair and technical support stations for things like civilian cars or scientific experiments. Or even involved in those things at all.
The fact that they have weapons and shields nevertheless is of course because those traders, diplomats and so on can become targets in the ST universe (which is usually due to other species' - including Klingon - and not Starfleet agressiveness) and we never saw much of a police force in the series. This has more to do with the limited development of anything civilian in the series (I guess Gene and the other creators simply weren't interested in civilian life that much) than it has to do with Starfleet as such.
Anyway, the mere presence of things that can be used to fight with doesn't make a starbase a purely military installation - and, hence, it doesn't justify indiscriminate killing on such a base or destroying it in its entirety.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
Putting all that aside too - attacking a base around Earth has little to do with war anyway. That is conquest. The Klingons had no reason to be there, except that they wanted to destroy or conquer the entire Federation. Their entire war was them taking one Federation system after the other and destroying countless ships, just because they're idiots who can't remain unified unless they have some other species to attack and a war to fight.
It's funny how some people are justifying her deeds with 'it was war time' logic. Besides the fact that we weren't at war anymore when she, for example, attacked Andoria, it's a lame excuse anyway.
Whether she was a soldier fighting a war or not isn't even remotely relevant. Soldiers still have some personal responsibility, taking orders from or carrying out a campaign ordered by someone else isn't an excuse to do anything you like.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
By the time of Seedea we had already attacked her, it's part of the patrols that happen after J'Ula declares her intentions at the First City, regardless of the first set of patrols we by this time had destroyed Mo'kai ships in combat not mention faced J'Ula herself in combat several times so yes that was during war, a war we the players started.
As for Seedea base itself, if it was not a valid military target why Deep Space 9 was?
This side of the time-line, most likely near zero, as she was only indirectly responsible for Aakar's actions, which was his betrayal, therefore a mutiny. Aakar was the true villian, next to J'mpok.
lol
theory craft and copium is strong here.
fat old retired guards at WW2 death camps... after war, was tried and you know what... didnt matter if they didnt do anything directly bad and just stood there collecting their pension/monthly stipend.
I am driving and you decide to drop off and make a deposit at a bank and I wait for ya... you decide to shoot up the place and make a withdrawal instead. totally in the dark about this and later drives off with ya... guess what happens to me.
J'ula is guilty as sin, trying to paint her as a victim is a joke. politics enters into things and what is a war crime is now a heroic endeavor. history is written by the victors. objectively J'ula is still trash, but writing in this game has always been more about plot armors than logic or characters being consistent.
By the time of Seedea we had already attacked her, it's part of the patrols that happen after J'Ula declares her intentions at the First City, regardless of the first set of patrols we by this time had destroyed Mo'kai ships in combat not mention faced J'Ula herself in combat several times so yes that was during war, a war we the players started.
As for Seedea base itself, if it was not a valid military target why Deep Space 9 was?
DS9 was strategically moved near the wormhole to guard that asset. In this sense, it's like navigating a vessel through the Suez canal. That base was clearly a military unit.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
Sedea base has been mentioned a few times in the thread. It's the "contemporary" smoking gun. J'ula is a terrorist. If she had been a head of state it would have been a war crime. Does it receive a pass under some interpretation of Klingon honour? Are you kidding me? Her forces engaged a lightly defended outpost and lost. This is after she usurped control of Starfleet ships in the area with computers. She still lost. After losing she detonated a Starbase while she turned tail and ran. No Klingon would follow that whether she was a war criminal or terrorist in the eyes of the Federation. Since she's one or the other there is also the matter of Klingon obligation to allies.
so in essence it has been surmised that she only killed about 6 people? that others around her may have taken actions on their own merits but had her as the scape goat.
so 6 people among a gazillion....maybe there was a targ in there when she was a kid.
She did kill a lot of innocents when she destroyed a federation starbase. Families, most likely children as well all killed by her. She's a terrorist, pure and simple.
and as discussed a SB is considered a military target. not her concern if families are within the walls of said target.
sorry, but given the details, history, and posts here, any loss of life was on behalf of war actions.
Its not a military base. I think you've forgotten that despite Starfleet sometimes functioning as a military it is not actually a military. Its extremely frequent for families and innocent people to just live on starbases and ships operated by starfleet. The Enterprise D even had some aboard itself. There was likely many maaany innocent people living aboard that starbase going about their lives when they were murdered in a terrorist attack.
and yet it is a military. ranks, uniforms, weapons, and so much more. i mean, if you want to go around and carry a banner that its not, then i wont stop you, but given all the stuff in this game, most of the shows, etc, it functions in military fashion.
so, a SB is a target. regardless of whom may be inside its walls. in fact, as stated, many current military bases have civilians within the walls as well. are those not military bases then? are they not subject to being targeted just because they have civilians within? nay.
I think you're missing the point. You don't get to go bomb any random military base because you feel like it. She simply blew it up for her own agenda.
Military or not, no one in that base was a combatant because there was no war.
The Islamic terrorists that have shot up a few bases in the US are not somehow okay because they shoot up a military base. They are terrorists shooting defenseless targets (oddly enough) who are non-combatants. People are dead, they were murdered.
You are forgetting that just a few weeks before Seedea the Federation (and others in the Alliance) sent a squadron to shoot up J'Ula's rear area shipyards and destroy her ships in their slips before they could get to battle. That and the constant harassment of her forces and operations the Alliance was carrying out at J'mpok's behest put them firmly in the ring in the Klingon civil war.
In fact, Aakar probably sold the idea of the Seedea assault to her as a counterstrike in retaliation for the Beta Lankal raid (the arc writers could have handled covering the motivations a little better with another couple of scenarios in the "outlaws" part of the arc, but I understand that they can only make so many in a year and they were probably running out of time).
Time and again in clashes leading up to Seedea, J'Ula tried to get the foreign forces to withdraw and declare an end to their participation in the war, or to at least join her side if they want to fight. And it really isn't her fault that she is such an incredibly bad diplomat (which she only realizes later at Borath) that she comes across as abrasive and egotistical instead of getting her message across.
Also, the Klingon empire is not like the USA or any other modern industrial nation of today, they are not a form of democracy, oligarchy, or constitutional monarchy, they have a form of pure old-school feudalism where when a war starts the warlords send troops in support of whichever side they intend to fight on. The Federation sent ships in support of J'mpok which under feudalism makes the Federation just as much a legitimate combatant in the (civil) war as the houses of Mokai, J'mpok, Mogh, Kor, or any others who sent troops to support one side or the other.
Sedea base has been mentioned a few times in the thread. It's the "contemporary" smoking gun. J'ula is a terrorist. If she had been a head of state it would have been a war crime.
Except that isn't how things work in Star Trek.
Remember when Sisko used chemical weapons to render an entire planet uninhabitable to human life for 50 years? Where was his war crime charge?
Or remember when Martok, Worf, and a few others, used Martok's ship to trigger a solar flare to wipe out the Dominion-Cardassian shipyards at Monac IV? You think only military personal work at shipyards?
Or how about Klingons and Romulans in general using cloaking devices to routinely sneak attack their opponents starbases/outposts? You know, the ones that have civies on them?
None of those are ever classified as war crimes in Star Trek. Also, J'ula quite demonstrably won at Sedea given that she successfully destroyed the station despite Shon and our best efforts to stop her.
This not even getting into the matter of Klingon honor. Klingon honor is not western, chivalric knight, honor. Its based more on Samurai honor(and not the warped view of Samurai used in movies) where victory in service of your lord/state was the highest honor. Worf himself states that victory in battle in the highest honor one can achieve in Klingon society.
This is why Klingons are perfectly fine with using cloaking devices to attack unaware enemies who can't defend themselves, using suicide bombing tactics to defeat their enemies when they can't win via normal means, using tactics like trigger solar flares to destroy enemy ship yards, sneakaly manipulating primitive, pre-warp, planets into joining them so they can turn around, enslave them all, and use them are slave labor to strip mine worlds dry, and the other atrocities they commit in ENT, TOS, ENG, and DS9.
J'ula's tactics are in no way out of line with the tactics of Klingons we have seen throughout the series.
Yeah, I do remember those episodes. Before we look at them it's worth considering they all came from DS9. Sisko was meant to be contentious and controversial to the audience. The point of those storylines (and the series) was to present morally ambiguous outcomes and and untenable resolutions. Moral ambiguity isn't moronic ambiguity. That arises from holes in logic, plot, or reasoning.
War crimes were an indulgence because someone tried to depict her as a rightful head of state rather than a terrorist.
In, "For the Uniform" a contested area of space and peace between the Union and Federation hung in balance. The Maquis were a terrorist organization who declared their independence from the Federation but that wasn't recognized by the Cardassians. They were in the eyes of the Union Federation and violating agreements between the two powers; Cause for war Dukat wanted. Sisko bombed the unauthorized settlement and made clear to it the same on all the rogue colonies. No Maquis were killed by the attack. War was averted and Eddington was sad. I'd call that a win result to a crisis and better than a petulant terrorist rage quitting Seedea station.
Monac IV was a military staging ground for the combined Dominion/Union Fleet. It wasn't hugs and kisses station with a pretty promenade. The Jem Hadar are a warrior caste. They don't bring, or have families. Period. The likelihood of the Cardassians bringing families to a forward post within striking distance of Federation targets is a stretch. You know that already. If you think the only military personnel in an army are shooting and attacking in some fashion without the benefit of a support and logistics component you should probably restrict your comments to not making them.
Your takes on Cloaking and Klingon concepts of honour contradict one another. The earth samurai culture is a better analog for Klingon doctrine and the pointless waste of material (ships and crews) when Ju'ula could have just pressed a button is mindnumbing. The knights you were telling me about would have loved that and even wrote you a song. If she had a superior in her CoC styled on samurai culture she probably would have been beheaded for being so wasteful. Going back to Earth that was a completely unnecessary Pyrrhic victory. As the smaller force (Renegades vs. 3 galactic powers) in a conflict that is the stupidest "strategy" imaginable. Paraphrasing the King's lament, "Another victory like this will ruin us".
Comments
My Romulan alt wanted to kill Excalbian Hakeev and be done with it it, Excalbian Burnham interference put my Romulan in a rock or a hard place, there's no way I'm giving up a powerful asset like Obisek, like what happened to the Prime Directive specifically the part about not interfering with other species cultures.
As a Romulan character she does threaten to surrender since the Republic will of course end up enslaved to the Klingon Empire, which isn't a civilian death but is a pretty large scope.
Probably opening a rift on a civilian city is the most direct war crime, though. I'm sort of surprised she didn't drop one on First City as she was running away at the start of the civil war.
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
"IDK what to tell you, you see soon... The tables will turn once I pull out my reverse uno card on the Klingon Empire, the Klingons are merely dumb brutes that lack the superior brain capacity and the subtly of a Romulan, Our undercover Operatives are already 10 steps ahead with the plan to convert the Klingon Empire into our own Star Empire, while they have been fighting amongst themselves during their silly Civil War, We took the ample opportunity to stage a coup from right under their noses. MWAHAHAHA!"
J'Ula never opened a rift on a civilian city, that was Aakar, and she was not at all happy about him doing it.
> J'Ula never opened a rift on a civilian city, that was Aakar, and she was not at all happy about him doing it.
She still took responsibility until a knife was to her neck, and made no motion or communique in a week on the issue, she was perfectly happy to be known about it until someone could punish her for it.
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
She did kill a lot of innocents when she destroyed a federation starbase. Families, most likely children as well all killed by her. She's a terrorist, pure and simple.
Of course, the rules of war only apply when there actually IS a war, and there wasn't - J'ula's war of the 2250s ended in that same period, and as I pointed out above, she arrived in 2409 and everything involving her took place in 2410/11 - there's no way she wouldn't have learned that war had ended long ago, and she never did anything during the 2390s-2410 Federation-Klingon war either (As of yet - I'm sure Cryptic will probably slip something into the early story once those yanked Klingon War missions return.) - every action she took was AFTER the ceasefire and eventual armistice and as those tend to be VERY big deals when they happen, there's also no way she wouldn't have known about that - she also doesn't have the authority or legitimacy of government to declare any sort of war, and even if she did, the Federation never reciprocated.
I still wouldn't call her a terrorist, though, because she was very careful to avoid indiscriminate attacks against civilians as much as klingonly possible - Akaar, however, is very much one, because he DELIBERATELY deployed a weapon of mass destruction against a civilian population at Qu'Vat.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Its not a military base. I think you've forgotten that despite Starfleet sometimes functioning as a military it is not actually a military. Its extremely frequent for families and innocent people to just live on starbases and ships operated by starfleet. The Enterprise D even had some aboard itself. There was likely many maaany innocent people living aboard that starbase going about their lives when they were murdered in a terrorist attack.
(What's going on with quotes now? Why is there a scroll bar? This is making it much harder to actually read what I'm quoting as I'm typing)
She would be considered a terrorist for her actions even if she didn't directly target civilians. You can be a terrorist and still only attack military targets. She made an attack when there wasn't a war and was responsible for the deaths of military and civilian personal. We're just so used to terrorists irl focusing on civilian targets but it is entirely possible for one to be a terrorist and just attack a military base or person
As far as I could tell, the attacks against Starfleet targets were just a means to an end - most of her politically-motivated demands were in KLINGON-held systems, which would make her a terrorist in their eyes, assuming they use the same definition - which they probably don't. But then again, the Human definition probably isn't the same that far in the future either.
Actually...have any Federation or Starfleet personnel in STO ever actually called J'Ula a terrorist? I think Quinn called her a renegade in a few briefings, but that's a vastly different label.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I think you're missing the point. You don't get to go bomb any random military base because you feel like it. She simply blew it up for her own agenda.
Military or not, no one in that base was a combatant because there was no war.
The Islamic terrorists that have shot up a few bases in the US are not somehow okay because they shoot up a military base. They are terrorists shooting defenseless targets (oddly enough) who are non-combatants. People are dead, they were murdered.
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I don't think anybody can deny that Starfleet has military responsibilities.
But as I said before: Starbases aren't just or even primarily military installations. Those bases have tons of functions.
That's also why the comparison with real life military bases aren't very good ones. In real life, a military base is a military base. They're not (primarily) created to support trade, facilitate diplomacy, to serve as repair and technical support stations for things like civilian cars or scientific experiments. Or even involved in those things at all.
The fact that they have weapons and shields nevertheless is of course because those traders, diplomats and so on can become targets in the ST universe (which is usually due to other species' - including Klingon - and not Starfleet agressiveness) and we never saw much of a police force in the series. This has more to do with the limited development of anything civilian in the series (I guess Gene and the other creators simply weren't interested in civilian life that much) than it has to do with Starfleet as such.
Anyway, the mere presence of things that can be used to fight with doesn't make a starbase a purely military installation - and, hence, it doesn't justify indiscriminate killing on such a base or destroying it in its entirety.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
It's funny how some people are justifying her deeds with 'it was war time' logic. Besides the fact that we weren't at war anymore when she, for example, attacked Andoria, it's a lame excuse anyway.
Whether she was a soldier fighting a war or not isn't even remotely relevant. Soldiers still have some personal responsibility, taking orders from or carrying out a campaign ordered by someone else isn't an excuse to do anything you like.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
As for Seedea base itself, if it was not a valid military target why Deep Space 9 was?
lol
theory craft and copium is strong here.
fat old retired guards at WW2 death camps... after war, was tried and you know what... didnt matter if they didnt do anything directly bad and just stood there collecting their pension/monthly stipend.
I am driving and you decide to drop off and make a deposit at a bank and I wait for ya... you decide to shoot up the place and make a withdrawal instead. totally in the dark about this and later drives off with ya... guess what happens to me.
J'ula is guilty as sin, trying to paint her as a victim is a joke. politics enters into things and what is a war crime is now a heroic endeavor. history is written by the victors. objectively J'ula is still trash, but writing in this game has always been more about plot armors than logic or characters being consistent.
DS9 was strategically moved near the wormhole to guard that asset. In this sense, it's like navigating a vessel through the Suez canal. That base was clearly a military unit.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
You are forgetting that just a few weeks before Seedea the Federation (and others in the Alliance) sent a squadron to shoot up J'Ula's rear area shipyards and destroy her ships in their slips before they could get to battle. That and the constant harassment of her forces and operations the Alliance was carrying out at J'mpok's behest put them firmly in the ring in the Klingon civil war.
In fact, Aakar probably sold the idea of the Seedea assault to her as a counterstrike in retaliation for the Beta Lankal raid (the arc writers could have handled covering the motivations a little better with another couple of scenarios in the "outlaws" part of the arc, but I understand that they can only make so many in a year and they were probably running out of time).
Time and again in clashes leading up to Seedea, J'Ula tried to get the foreign forces to withdraw and declare an end to their participation in the war, or to at least join her side if they want to fight. And it really isn't her fault that she is such an incredibly bad diplomat (which she only realizes later at Borath) that she comes across as abrasive and egotistical instead of getting her message across.
Also, the Klingon empire is not like the USA or any other modern industrial nation of today, they are not a form of democracy, oligarchy, or constitutional monarchy, they have a form of pure old-school feudalism where when a war starts the warlords send troops in support of whichever side they intend to fight on. The Federation sent ships in support of J'mpok which under feudalism makes the Federation just as much a legitimate combatant in the (civil) war as the houses of Mokai, J'mpok, Mogh, Kor, or any others who sent troops to support one side or the other.
Yeah, I do remember those episodes. Before we look at them it's worth considering they all came from DS9. Sisko was meant to be contentious and controversial to the audience. The point of those storylines (and the series) was to present morally ambiguous outcomes and and untenable resolutions. Moral ambiguity isn't moronic ambiguity. That arises from holes in logic, plot, or reasoning.
War crimes were an indulgence because someone tried to depict her as a rightful head of state rather than a terrorist.
In, "For the Uniform" a contested area of space and peace between the Union and Federation hung in balance. The Maquis were a terrorist organization who declared their independence from the Federation but that wasn't recognized by the Cardassians. They were in the eyes of the Union Federation and violating agreements between the two powers; Cause for war Dukat wanted. Sisko bombed the unauthorized settlement and made clear to it the same on all the rogue colonies. No Maquis were killed by the attack. War was averted and Eddington was sad. I'd call that a win result to a crisis and better than a petulant terrorist rage quitting Seedea station.
Monac IV was a military staging ground for the combined Dominion/Union Fleet. It wasn't hugs and kisses station with a pretty promenade. The Jem Hadar are a warrior caste. They don't bring, or have families. Period. The likelihood of the Cardassians bringing families to a forward post within striking distance of Federation targets is a stretch. You know that already. If you think the only military personnel in an army are shooting and attacking in some fashion without the benefit of a support and logistics component you should probably restrict your comments to not making them.
Your takes on Cloaking and Klingon concepts of honour contradict one another. The earth samurai culture is a better analog for Klingon doctrine and the pointless waste of material (ships and crews) when Ju'ula could have just pressed a button is mindnumbing. The knights you were telling me about would have loved that and even wrote you a song. If she had a superior in her CoC styled on samurai culture she probably would have been beheaded for being so wasteful. Going back to Earth that was a completely unnecessary Pyrrhic victory. As the smaller force (Renegades vs. 3 galactic powers) in a conflict that is the stupidest "strategy" imaginable. Paraphrasing the King's lament, "Another victory like this will ruin us".