[*] Remember when Sisko used chemical weapons to render an entire planet uninhabitable to human life for 50 years? Where was his war crime charge?
[*] Or remember when Martok, Worf, and a few others, used Martok's ship to trigger a solar flare to wipe out the Dominion-Cardassian shipyards at Monac IV? You think only military personal work at shipyards?
[*] Or how about Klingons and Romulans in general using cloaking devices to routinely sneak attack their opponents starbases/outposts? You know, the ones that have civies on them?
[/list]
None of those are ever classified as war crimes in Star Trek. Also, J'ula quite demonstrably won at Sedea given that she successfully destroyed the station despite Shon and our best efforts to stop her.
This not even getting into the matter of Klingon honor. Klingon honor is not western, chivalric knight, honor. Its based more on Samurai honor(and not the warped view of Samurai used in movies) where victory in service of your lord/state was the highest honor. Worf himself states that victory in battle in the highest honor one can achieve in Klingon society.
This is why Klingons are perfectly fine with using cloaking devices to attack unaware enemies who can't defend themselves, using suicide bombing tactics to defeat their enemies when they can't win via normal means, using tactics like trigger solar flares to destroy enemy ship yards, sneakaly manipulating primitive, pre-warp, planets into joining them so they can turn around, enslave them all, and use them are slave labor to strip mine worlds dry, and the other atrocities they commit in ENT, TOS, ENG, and DS9.
J'ula's tactics are in no way out of line with the tactics of Klingons we have seen throughout the series.
Yeah, actually I do remember that. In "For the Uniform" Sisko poisoned the atmosphere of a planet occupied by Maquis terrorists. Numerous unauthorized colonies were in the DMZ demarcated by treaties between the Federation and Cardassian Union. The Cardassians identified them as Federation citizens putting the Feds in violation of the treaties and putting the two powers at war. He would have done the same to other Maquis colonies as well. Sisko's action caused no casualties and averted a war that that would have killed hundreds? thousands? I'm calling that a win. It was a calculated decision that measured risks and and outcomes. Better outcome than J'ula rage quitting Seedea like a petulant child after an embarassing defeat.
Monac IV was a military installation constructed within striking distance of Federation assets for that purpose implicitly. In the case of the Cardassians it's a stretch to suggest it was a family affair loaded up with families like a Federation way station. In the case of the Jem Hadar they don't have families. Period.
The Cloaking segway into honour is a bit of a mess. I didn't say anything about knights charging but it would be stupid and not very Klingon. J'ula had to push a button. She would have won. She didn't have to lose a single ship. She blew her whole fleet(s), ran away after squandering her forces and then she blew up Seedea station. Glorious. If she had an earth inspired samurai overlord they would have demanded her head for wasting all that material pointlessly. As a commander with more limited resouces than the other belligerent in a conflict she did the dumbest thing possible; She squandered her material pointlessly. If you call that a win for her I'll give you that. They are called Pyrrhic victories.
How do you delete comments when you manage to clone your comment trying to correct poor phrasing in the original?
Since I accidentally added this comment I might as well try to use it more constructively. @somtaawkhar It's no coincidence the examples you cited came from DS9. The moral ambiguity and weight of often untenable decisions was at the heart of the series. Sisko often didn't make pretty, nice or "starfleet" decisions but that was point. Those decisions aren't always possible unless you idealize the setting. Sisko made hard decisions. He gambled but he hedged his bets, weighed his options, and acted to arrive at a resolution that was for a greater good. I'm surprised you didn't mention Vreenak and, "In the Pale Moonlight" but this episode best illustrates what makes Sisko different than J'Ula. He did something horrible after weighing the bodies but he suffered for it. Sisko struggled with his choices in spite of realizing the good that had come from them. J'ula never did that.
You know, there's a line in Klingon Academy that, while I know games don't have any bearing on on any society or culture in the main body of Star Trek (That occupied by the shows and movies.), still does explain perfectly the Klingon attitude towards non-combatants - I don't recall the line verbatim or who said it, but it was essentially 'Warriors shouldn't waste time attacking non-combatants, unless you need to do so in pursuit of a greater purpose.' - Just something interesting I remember from my recent watching of a playthrough for that game.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Also, anyone complaining about destroying Starbases clearly must have never played games like Armada, or Starfleet Command, where such structures are routinely destroyed...by the Federation as well as the other powers present in those games - oh, and Armada is even worse because any mission or instant action that requires you kill everything means it literally - you have to kill EVERYTHING, including your opponent's research stations...and I'm betting those aren't crewed by military personnel. Plus, there's also mining stations and (unarmed) mining freighters and, in A2, trading stations and trade ships.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Also, anyone complaining about destroying Starbases clearly must have never played games like Armada, or Starfleet Command, where such structures are routinely destroyed...by the Federation as well as the other powers present in those games - oh, and Armada is even worse because any mission or instant action that requires you kill everything means it literally - you have to kill EVERYTHING, including your opponent's research stations...and I'm betting those aren't crewed by military personnel. Plus, there's also mining stations and (unarmed) mining freighters and, in A2, trading stations and trade ships.
I'll admit I've never held my breath waiting for any MMO to win the industry equivalent of an Oscar for writing but the pew pew "plot" of an RTS game is a lower bar than I would have expected. It's not canon and so awful I don't feel like a canon snob for saying so. It's the kinder, gentler path anyway.
Also, anyone complaining about destroying Starbases clearly must have never played games like Armada, or Starfleet Command, where such structures are routinely destroyed...by the Federation as well as the other powers present in those games - oh, and Armada is even worse because any mission or instant action that requires you kill everything means it literally - you have to kill EVERYTHING, including your opponent's research stations...and I'm betting those aren't crewed by military personnel. Plus, there's also mining stations and (unarmed) mining freighters and, in A2, trading stations and trade ships.
You know, I'd be fine attacking a Starbase...but I'd like it to be DS9. I know we've got that one PVE where you're technically attacking, by beaming over squadrons, but imagine if the PVE was the battle of the Klingons against the station, or the Dominion, or if you're attacking the station itself while it's occupied by the Cardassians.
There have been episodes where your ship gets another ship's avatar, so you could be a Galor Class and I want DS9 firing phasers and torpedoes at me! That would be terrific and so much more fun.
so in essence it has been surmised that she only killed about 6 people? that others around her may have taken actions on their own merits but had her as the scape goat.
so 6 people among a gazillion....maybe there was a targ in there when she was a kid.
She did kill a lot of innocents when she destroyed a federation starbase. Families, most likely children as well all killed by her. She's a terrorist, pure and simple.
and as discussed a SB is considered a military target. not her concern if families are within the walls of said target.
sorry, but given the details, history, and posts here, any loss of life was on behalf of war actions.
Its not a military base. I think you've forgotten that despite Starfleet sometimes functioning as a military it is not actually a military. Its extremely frequent for families and innocent people to just live on starbases and ships operated by starfleet. The Enterprise D even had some aboard itself. There was likely many maaany innocent people living aboard that starbase going about their lives when they were murdered in a terrorist attack.
and yet it is a military. ranks, uniforms, weapons, and so much more. i mean, if you want to go around and carry a banner that its not, then i wont stop you, but given all the stuff in this game, most of the shows, etc, it functions in military fashion.
so, a SB is a target. regardless of whom may be inside its walls. in fact, as stated, many current military bases have civilians within the walls as well. are those not military bases then? are they not subject to being targeted just because they have civilians within? nay.
I think you're missing the point. You don't get to go bomb any random military base because you feel like it. She simply blew it up for her own agenda.
Military or not, no one in that base was a combatant because there was no war.
The Islamic terrorists that have shot up a few bases in the US are not somehow okay because they shoot up a military base. They are terrorists shooting defenseless targets (oddly enough) who are non-combatants. People are dead, they were murdered.
equating a game to real life scenarios will allow you to lose all the time mate. stop the comparisons of terrorism to the game.
and no, im not missing the point, i think you are. if SF thinks they are not at war, thats on them, however, if the klinks feel they are, then all actions are justified based on that fact.
both, or all parties do not need to declare war in order for war to be established. one side can declare war, and if the other side tosses hands in the air, as if to say no, then that doesnt negate the declaration by the one side.
base or not, civilians or not, war or not, police action or not, a target is a target no matter the result of the action taken.
if you want to get into semantics of lessoning non-combat persons, then fine, but just because SF wasnt at war doesnt mean no one else is.
to add, if SF isnt a military construct, then why the hell are we blowing TRIBBLE up all the time?
I don't think anybody can deny that Starfleet has military responsibilities.
But as I said before: Starfleet isn't just a military. Those bases have tons of functions. That's also why the comparison with real life military bases aren't very good ones. In real life, a military base is a military base. They're not (primarily) created to support trade, facilitate diplomacy, repair and technical support for civilian cars or scientific experiments.
The fact that they have weapons and shields nevertheless is of course because those traders, diplomats and so on can become targets in the ST universe (which is usually due to other species' - including Klingon - and not Starfleet agressiveness) and we never saw much of a police force in the series.
But that of coursel doesn't make a starbase a purely military installation - and, hence, it doesn't justify indiscriminate killing on such a base or destroying it in its entirety.
wrong. obviously you have never been on a military base. or if you have, you have been sheltered from many aspects they have within.
If they are created for those other purposes, then it's not a military base.
It really is that simple. Sure, there are some countries that place bases all over the planet to support their foreign and trade policy, but generally speaking a military base isn't placed somewhere because you want to facilitate trade, diplomacy or experiments. There are other facilities for that. At least in the case of civilised countries that keep their military and other policies separated.
Also, anyone complaining about destroying Starbases clearly must have never played games like Armada, or Starfleet Command, where such structures are routinely destroyed...by the Federation as well as the other powers present in those games - oh, and Armada is even worse because any mission or instant action that requires you kill everything means it literally - you have to kill EVERYTHING, including your opponent's research stations...and I'm betting those aren't crewed by military personnel. Plus, there's also mining stations and (unarmed) mining freighters and, in A2, trading stations and trade ships.
That's also why the comparison with real life military bases aren't very good ones. In real life, a military base is a military base. They're not (primarily) created to support trade, facilitate diplomacy, to serve as repair and technical support stations for things like civilian cars or scientific experiments. Or even involved in those things at all.
facilitate diplomacy every naval station the US owns would like to disagree. The Navy hosts ships of her allies all the time, a purely DIPLOMATIC act.
repair and technical support stations for things like civilian cars or scientific experiments
Edwards Air force base, the Naval Ship research and development center, Bethesda naval hospital (and really any naval hospital) tend to disagree with you. at any given point in time there are large amounts of military dependents on base in on base housing. during work hours the numbers of civilian employees swells the population Many if not most bases have commissary and exchanges on post, and those are completely civilian run.
in other words, do not speak of which you do not know
so in essence it has been surmised that she only killed about 6 people? that others around her may have taken actions on their own merits but had her as the scape goat.
so 6 people among a gazillion....maybe there was a targ in there when she was a kid.
She did kill a lot of innocents when she destroyed a federation starbase. Families, most likely children as well all killed by her. She's a terrorist, pure and simple.
and as discussed a SB is considered a military target. not her concern if families are within the walls of said target.
sorry, but given the details, history, and posts here, any loss of life was on behalf of war actions.
Its not a military base. I think you've forgotten that despite Starfleet sometimes functioning as a military it is not actually a military. Its extremely frequent for families and innocent people to just live on starbases and ships operated by starfleet. The Enterprise D even had some aboard itself. There was likely many maaany innocent people living aboard that starbase going about their lives when they were murdered in a terrorist attack.
and yet it is a military. ranks, uniforms, weapons, and so much more. i mean, if you want to go around and carry a banner that its not, then i wont stop you, but given all the stuff in this game, most of the shows, etc, it functions in military fashion.
so, a SB is a target. regardless of whom may be inside its walls. in fact, as stated, many current military bases have civilians within the walls as well. are those not military bases then? are they not subject to being targeted just because they have civilians within? nay.
I think you're missing the point. You don't get to go bomb any random military base because you feel like it. She simply blew it up for her own agenda.
Military or not, no one in that base was a combatant because there was no war.
The Islamic terrorists that have shot up a few bases in the US are not somehow okay because they shoot up a military base. They are terrorists shooting defenseless targets (oddly enough) who are non-combatants. People are dead, they were murdered.
equating a game to real life scenarios will allow you to lose all the time mate. stop the comparisons of terrorism to the game.
and no, im not missing the point, i think you are. if SF thinks they are not at war, thats on them, however, if the klinks feel they are, then all actions are justified based on that fact.
both, or all parties do not need to declare war in order for war to be established. one side can declare war, and if the other side tosses hands in the air, as if to say no, then that doesnt negate the declaration by the one side.
base or not, civilians or not, war or not, police action or not, a target is a target no matter the result of the action taken.
if you want to get into semantics of lessoning non-combat persons, then fine, but just because SF wasnt at war doesnt mean no one else is.
to add, if SF isnt a military construct, then why the hell are we blowing TRIBBLE up all the time?
I don't think anybody can deny that Starfleet has military responsibilities.
But as I said before: Starfleet isn't just a military. Those bases have tons of functions. That's also why the comparison with real life military bases aren't very good ones. In real life, a military base is a military base. They're not (primarily) created to support trade, facilitate diplomacy, repair and technical support for civilian cars or scientific experiments.
The fact that they have weapons and shields nevertheless is of course because those traders, diplomats and so on can become targets in the ST universe (which is usually due to other species' - including Klingon - and not Starfleet agressiveness) and we never saw much of a police force in the series.
But that of coursel doesn't make a starbase a purely military installation - and, hence, it doesn't justify indiscriminate killing on such a base or destroying it in its entirety.
wrong. obviously you have never been on a military base. or if you have, you have been sheltered from many aspects they have within.
If they are created for those other purposes, then it's not a military base.
It really is that simple. Sure, there are some countries that place bases all over the planet to support their foreign and trade policy, but generally speaking a military base isn't placed somewhere because you want to facilitate trade, diplomacy or experiments. There are other facilities for that. At least in the case of civilised countries that keep their military and other policies separated.
If that is the case then the US doesn't have any military bases by your definition. Every large base I know of has a PX, a hospital, guards, a mess hall, and a motor pool of some kind, along with other services, all of which are being increasingly switched over to civilian service providers. Also, bases often host some kind of research or engineering facilities that use civilian scientists, engineers, etc.
And then there are the the dependents that are housed on base or in the town or city that invariably springs up around them that provides needed services to the base that are not directly supplied by the military. In space were would that town be? In the same satellite that houses the base most likely.
On top of that, despite Roddenberry having to switch his pitch to "Wagon Train to the stars" to sell the series to a Hollywood tired of swashbucklers, Star Trek was originally based on Victorian sailing ship stories projected into the future along with modern allegories (he often mentioned the Hornblower novels in interviews for instance) and at that time military bases were quite often placed as safe commerce centers in an often rough frontier. That is one of the problems that TNG had, mugwumping between a Victorian-like deep frontiers story setup and today's 'small world' situation of instant communication and quick travel.
facilitate diplomacy every naval station the US owns would like to disagree. The Navy hosts ships of her allies all the time, a purely DIPLOMATIC act.
repair and technical support stations for things like civilian cars or scientific experiments
Edwards Air force base, the Naval Ship research and development center, Bethesda naval hospital (and really any naval hospital) tend to disagree with you. at any given point in time there are large amounts of military dependents on base in on base housing. during work hours the numbers of civilian employees swells the population Many if not most bases have commissary and exchanges on post, and those are completely civilian run.
in other words, do not speak of which you do not know
You "host" allied navies to project your combined military power. It's a flex. Look at the RimPac exercises. It runs out of Pearl and "hosts" allied navies. You have exercises to improve coordination between the nation's assets and to scare the local "bad guys". Defence agreements are bigger than, "We shoot in the same direction when the shooting starts". Naval stations repair, provisions their own vessels and fuel allied ships to extend their ranges when RAS isn't practical; Or if an allied country even has the capability.
A military target is a military target. If you want to embed civilians in a military installation you are placing them in harm's way. It's a hedged bet. It's a QoL thing in peacetime and if you have civilian casualties you can fire up everyone at home because they are killing civilians. I would feel sympathy for the clerk at a PX if they got killed in an attack. A white coat working in a lab conducting weapons research; Not so much.
so in essence it has been surmised that she only killed about 6 people? that others around her may have taken actions on their own merits but had her as the scape goat.
so 6 people among a gazillion....maybe there was a targ in there when she was a kid.
She did kill a lot of innocents when she destroyed a federation starbase. Families, most likely children as well all killed by her. She's a terrorist, pure and simple.
and as discussed a SB is considered a military target. not her concern if families are within the walls of said target.
sorry, but given the details, history, and posts here, any loss of life was on behalf of war actions.
Its not a military base. I think you've forgotten that despite Starfleet sometimes functioning as a military it is not actually a military. Its extremely frequent for families and innocent people to just live on starbases and ships operated by starfleet. The Enterprise D even had some aboard itself. There was likely many maaany innocent people living aboard that starbase going about their lives when they were murdered in a terrorist attack.
and yet it is a military. ranks, uniforms, weapons, and so much more. i mean, if you want to go around and carry a banner that its not, then i wont stop you, but given all the stuff in this game, most of the shows, etc, it functions in military fashion.
so, a SB is a target. regardless of whom may be inside its walls. in fact, as stated, many current military bases have civilians within the walls as well. are those not military bases then? are they not subject to being targeted just because they have civilians within? nay.
I think you're missing the point. You don't get to go bomb any random military base because you feel like it. She simply blew it up for her own agenda.
Military or not, no one in that base was a combatant because there was no war.
The Islamic terrorists that have shot up a few bases in the US are not somehow okay because they shoot up a military base. They are terrorists shooting defenseless targets (oddly enough) who are non-combatants. People are dead, they were murdered.
You are forgetting that just a few weeks before Seedea the Federation (and others in the Alliance) sent a squadron to shoot up J'Ula's rear area shipyards and destroy her ships in their slips before they could get to battle. That and the constant harassment of her forces and operations the Alliance was carrying out at J'mpok's behest put them firmly in the ring in the Klingon civil war.
In fact, Aakar probably sold the idea of the Seedea assault to her as a counterstrike in retaliation for the Beta Lankal raid (the arc writers could have handled covering the motivations a little better with another couple of scenarios in the "outlaws" part of the arc, but I understand that they can only make so many in a year and they were probably running out of time).
Time and again in clashes leading up to Seedea, J'Ula tried to get the foreign forces to withdraw and declare an end to their participation in the war, or to at least join her side if they want to fight. And it really isn't her fault that she is such an incredibly bad diplomat (which she only realizes later at Borath) that she comes across as abrasive and egotistical instead of getting her message across.
Also, the Klingon empire is not like the USA or any other modern industrial nation of today, they are not a form of democracy, oligarchy, or constitutional monarchy, they have a form of pure old-school feudalism where when a war starts the warlords send troops in support of whichever side they intend to fight on. The Federation sent ships in support of J'mpok which under feudalism makes the Federation just as much a legitimate combatant in the (civil) war as the houses of Mokai, J'mpok, Mogh, Kor, or any others who sent troops to support one side or the other.
The shipyard destruction was post her attack on Andoria and use of the superweapon we learned could destroy all life in every universe, and her probes that were corrupting the mushroom kingdom. She uses her superweapon repeatedly and recklessly during that STF (and at Andoria) to pull through angry Elachi, which are invaders to our universe by any standard, and are an existential threat themselves. We, especially Romulans, know very well what an Elachi invasion portends.
And as for Feudalism, J'ula had not made any claim for leadership of the Empire, nor any other even partially legitimate cause. The Empire was not at war with anyone involved at the time, with J'ula acting completely on her own as a rogue house, attacking seemingly at random, while inviting hostile foreign forces to invade.
so in essence it has been surmised that she only killed about 6 people? that others around her may have taken actions on their own merits but had her as the scape goat.
so 6 people among a gazillion....maybe there was a targ in there when she was a kid.
She did kill a lot of innocents when she destroyed a federation starbase. Families, most likely children as well all killed by her. She's a terrorist, pure and simple.
and as discussed a SB is considered a military target. not her concern if families are within the walls of said target.
sorry, but given the details, history, and posts here, any loss of life was on behalf of war actions.
Its not a military base. I think you've forgotten that despite Starfleet sometimes functioning as a military it is not actually a military. Its extremely frequent for families and innocent people to just live on starbases and ships operated by starfleet. The Enterprise D even had some aboard itself. There was likely many maaany innocent people living aboard that starbase going about their lives when they were murdered in a terrorist attack.
and yet it is a military. ranks, uniforms, weapons, and so much more. i mean, if you want to go around and carry a banner that its not, then i wont stop you, but given all the stuff in this game, most of the shows, etc, it functions in military fashion.
so, a SB is a target. regardless of whom may be inside its walls. in fact, as stated, many current military bases have civilians within the walls as well. are those not military bases then? are they not subject to being targeted just because they have civilians within? nay.
I think you're missing the point. You don't get to go bomb any random military base because you feel like it. She simply blew it up for her own agenda.
Military or not, no one in that base was a combatant because there was no war.
The Islamic terrorists that have shot up a few bases in the US are not somehow okay because they shoot up a military base. They are terrorists shooting defenseless targets (oddly enough) who are non-combatants. People are dead, they were murdered.
equating a game to real life scenarios will allow you to lose all the time mate. stop the comparisons of terrorism to the game.
and no, im not missing the point, i think you are. if SF thinks they are not at war, thats on them, however, if the klinks feel they are, then all actions are justified based on that fact.
both, or all parties do not need to declare war in order for war to be established. one side can declare war, and if the other side tosses hands in the air, as if to say no, then that doesnt negate the declaration by the one side.
base or not, civilians or not, war or not, police action or not, a target is a target no matter the result of the action taken.
if you want to get into semantics of lessoning non-combat persons, then fine, but just because SF wasnt at war doesnt mean no one else is.
to add, if SF isnt a military construct, then why the hell are we blowing TRIBBLE up all the time?
I'll compare to what I want to, and if you have a problem with my argument then address it directly. You have made no counterargument for why using real world examples is a bad argument.
The problem is no one was at war. Imagining being at war isn't relevant because no one was under any illusion of being at war. There were no demands made that could be negotiated, no dispute that is being argued. J'ula comes out of no where and starts attacking the Federation (this when her real goal was civil war.) Her attacks were unjustified, unprovoked, and unsupported by her nation, and we know she isn't fresh out of the time warp where it might be understandable. She made no attempt to even communicate her goals and demands. She is a terrorist, plain and simple. She's not a state actor, because her state disavows her.
She also made her position clear, if not directly stating her desire, during her speech on Qo'nos that, if Martok wouldn't reclaim the chancellorship from J'mpok, she would have no issue doing so instead - a position she maintained all the way up until that first vision on Boreth.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
so in essence it has been surmised that she only killed about 6 people? that others around her may have taken actions on their own merits but had her as the scape goat.
so 6 people among a gazillion....maybe there was a targ in there when she was a kid.
She did kill a lot of innocents when she destroyed a federation starbase. Families, most likely children as well all killed by her. She's a terrorist, pure and simple.
and as discussed a SB is considered a military target. not her concern if families are within the walls of said target.
sorry, but given the details, history, and posts here, any loss of life was on behalf of war actions.
Its not a military base. I think you've forgotten that despite Starfleet sometimes functioning as a military it is not actually a military. Its extremely frequent for families and innocent people to just live on starbases and ships operated by starfleet. The Enterprise D even had some aboard itself. There was likely many maaany innocent people living aboard that starbase going about their lives when they were murdered in a terrorist attack.
and yet it is a military. ranks, uniforms, weapons, and so much more. i mean, if you want to go around and carry a banner that its not, then i wont stop you, but given all the stuff in this game, most of the shows, etc, it functions in military fashion.
so, a SB is a target. regardless of whom may be inside its walls. in fact, as stated, many current military bases have civilians within the walls as well. are those not military bases then? are they not subject to being targeted just because they have civilians within? nay.
I think you're missing the point. You don't get to go bomb any random military base because you feel like it. She simply blew it up for her own agenda.
Military or not, no one in that base was a combatant because there was no war.
The Islamic terrorists that have shot up a few bases in the US are not somehow okay because they shoot up a military base. They are terrorists shooting defenseless targets (oddly enough) who are non-combatants. People are dead, they were murdered.
You are forgetting that just a few weeks before Seedea the Federation (and others in the Alliance) sent a squadron to shoot up J'Ula's rear area shipyards and destroy her ships in their slips before they could get to battle. That and the constant harassment of her forces and operations the Alliance was carrying out at J'mpok's behest put them firmly in the ring in the Klingon civil war.
In fact, Aakar probably sold the idea of the Seedea assault to her as a counterstrike in retaliation for the Beta Lankal raid (the arc writers could have handled covering the motivations a little better with another couple of scenarios in the "outlaws" part of the arc, but I understand that they can only make so many in a year and they were probably running out of time).
Time and again in clashes leading up to Seedea, J'Ula tried to get the foreign forces to withdraw and declare an end to their participation in the war, or to at least join her side if they want to fight. And it really isn't her fault that she is such an incredibly bad diplomat (which she only realizes later at Borath) that she comes across as abrasive and egotistical instead of getting her message across.
Also, the Klingon empire is not like the USA or any other modern industrial nation of today, they are not a form of democracy, oligarchy, or constitutional monarchy, they have a form of pure old-school feudalism where when a war starts the warlords send troops in support of whichever side they intend to fight on. The Federation sent ships in support of J'mpok which under feudalism makes the Federation just as much a legitimate combatant in the (civil) war as the houses of Mokai, J'mpok, Mogh, Kor, or any others who sent troops to support one side or the other.
The shipyard destruction was post her attack on Andoria and use of the superweapon we learned could destroy all life in every universe, and her probes that were corrupting the mushroom kingdom. She uses her superweapon repeatedly and recklessly during that STF (and at Andoria) to pull through angry Elachi, which are invaders to our universe by any standard, and are an existential threat themselves. We, especially Romulans, know very well what an Elachi invasion portends.
And as for Feudalism, J'ula had not made any claim for leadership of the Empire, nor any other even partially legitimate cause. The Empire was not at war with anyone involved at the time, with J'ula acting completely on her own as a rogue house, attacking seemingly at random, while inviting hostile foreign forces to invade.
so in essence it has been surmised that she only killed about 6 people? that others around her may have taken actions on their own merits but had her as the scape goat.
so 6 people among a gazillion....maybe there was a targ in there when she was a kid.
She did kill a lot of innocents when she destroyed a federation starbase. Families, most likely children as well all killed by her. She's a terrorist, pure and simple.
and as discussed a SB is considered a military target. not her concern if families are within the walls of said target.
sorry, but given the details, history, and posts here, any loss of life was on behalf of war actions.
Its not a military base. I think you've forgotten that despite Starfleet sometimes functioning as a military it is not actually a military. Its extremely frequent for families and innocent people to just live on starbases and ships operated by starfleet. The Enterprise D even had some aboard itself. There was likely many maaany innocent people living aboard that starbase going about their lives when they were murdered in a terrorist attack.
and yet it is a military. ranks, uniforms, weapons, and so much more. i mean, if you want to go around and carry a banner that its not, then i wont stop you, but given all the stuff in this game, most of the shows, etc, it functions in military fashion.
so, a SB is a target. regardless of whom may be inside its walls. in fact, as stated, many current military bases have civilians within the walls as well. are those not military bases then? are they not subject to being targeted just because they have civilians within? nay.
I think you're missing the point. You don't get to go bomb any random military base because you feel like it. She simply blew it up for her own agenda.
Military or not, no one in that base was a combatant because there was no war.
The Islamic terrorists that have shot up a few bases in the US are not somehow okay because they shoot up a military base. They are terrorists shooting defenseless targets (oddly enough) who are non-combatants. People are dead, they were murdered.
equating a game to real life scenarios will allow you to lose all the time mate. stop the comparisons of terrorism to the game.
and no, im not missing the point, i think you are. if SF thinks they are not at war, thats on them, however, if the klinks feel they are, then all actions are justified based on that fact.
both, or all parties do not need to declare war in order for war to be established. one side can declare war, and if the other side tosses hands in the air, as if to say no, then that doesnt negate the declaration by the one side.
base or not, civilians or not, war or not, police action or not, a target is a target no matter the result of the action taken.
if you want to get into semantics of lessoning non-combat persons, then fine, but just because SF wasnt at war doesnt mean no one else is.
to add, if SF isnt a military construct, then why the hell are we blowing TRIBBLE up all the time?
I'll compare to what I want to, and if you have a problem with my argument then address it directly. You have made no counterargument for why using real world examples is a bad argument.
The problem is no one was at war. Imagining being at war isn't relevant because no one was under any illusion of being at war. There were no demands made that could be negotiated, no dispute that is being argued. J'ula comes out of no where and starts attacking the Federation (this when her real goal was civil war.) Her attacks were unjustified, unprovoked, and unsupported by her nation, and we know she isn't fresh out of the time warp where it might be understandable. She made no attempt to even communicate her goals and demands. She is a terrorist, plain and simple. She's not a state actor, because her state disavows her.
you seem upset mate. need a hug? does using the term terrorist or citing real world examples of terrorist actions make your argument better? do you feel a game rises to the level of real life terrorist actions? do you feel vindicated by using the word terrorism, and actions of terrorism, as a focal point for your argument? do you adore and worship terrorists as such that you feel a game needs to rise to the same level as a real life terrorist?
as far as the rest - again, its a game. but if you feel you need justification and if your stance works for you, then by all means.
What the...? Whatever. You aren't to be taken seriously on this topic. Noted.
She also made her position clear, if not directly stating her desire, during her speech on Qo'nos that, if Martok wouldn't reclaim the chancellorship from J'mpok, she would have no issue doing so instead - a position she maintained all the way up until that first vision on Boreth.
As far as I am aware, that specific Blog was her in the 2250s. The next one with her is her in the present trying to find house Mokai again.
And yes she made her position clear, after her attack at Andoria, and then goes and blows up a Federation Starbase! Because that makes sense somehow. Why not blow up a Klingon Starbase with loyalists to J'mpok?
Her whole arc is her being stuck in the past wanting war with the Federation till she realizes she's not getting the war because J'mpok isn't a complete idiot, so she wants to depose him, and take over the Empire to get her war, and then abruptly is supposed to be sympathetic to the player as we help her overthrow J'mpok so that she can instead install a zombie as Chancellor, and then what?
A new war with the Federation? No, that's supposed to be what she learned, that she's been an idiot this entire time, and war with the Federation would be disastrous for the Empire, which means all her acts of aggression against the Federation were wrong and if she got what she wanted the Empire would be in ruins, ultimately, which was her vision on Boreth.
so in essence it has been surmised that she only killed about 6 people? that others around her may have taken actions on their own merits but had her as the scape goat.
so 6 people among a gazillion....maybe there was a targ in there when she was a kid.
She did kill a lot of innocents when she destroyed a federation starbase. Families, most likely children as well all killed by her. She's a terrorist, pure and simple.
and as discussed a SB is considered a military target. not her concern if families are within the walls of said target.
sorry, but given the details, history, and posts here, any loss of life was on behalf of war actions.
Its not a military base. I think you've forgotten that despite Starfleet sometimes functioning as a military it is not actually a military. Its extremely frequent for families and innocent people to just live on starbases and ships operated by starfleet. The Enterprise D even had some aboard itself. There was likely many maaany innocent people living aboard that starbase going about their lives when they were murdered in a terrorist attack.
and yet it is a military. ranks, uniforms, weapons, and so much more. i mean, if you want to go around and carry a banner that its not, then i wont stop you, but given all the stuff in this game, most of the shows, etc, it functions in military fashion.
so, a SB is a target. regardless of whom may be inside its walls. in fact, as stated, many current military bases have civilians within the walls as well. are those not military bases then? are they not subject to being targeted just because they have civilians within? nay.
I think you're missing the point. You don't get to go bomb any random military base because you feel like it. She simply blew it up for her own agenda.
Military or not, no one in that base was a combatant because there was no war.
The Islamic terrorists that have shot up a few bases in the US are not somehow okay because they shoot up a military base. They are terrorists shooting defenseless targets (oddly enough) who are non-combatants. People are dead, they were murdered.
equating a game to real life scenarios will allow you to lose all the time mate. stop the comparisons of terrorism to the game.
and no, im not missing the point, i think you are. if SF thinks they are not at war, thats on them, however, if the klinks feel they are, then all actions are justified based on that fact.
both, or all parties do not need to declare war in order for war to be established. one side can declare war, and if the other side tosses hands in the air, as if to say no, then that doesnt negate the declaration by the one side.
base or not, civilians or not, war or not, police action or not, a target is a target no matter the result of the action taken.
if you want to get into semantics of lessoning non-combat persons, then fine, but just because SF wasnt at war doesnt mean no one else is.
to add, if SF isnt a military construct, then why the hell are we blowing TRIBBLE up all the time?
I don't think anybody can deny that Starfleet has military responsibilities.
But as I said before: Starfleet isn't just a military. Those bases have tons of functions. That's also why the comparison with real life military bases aren't very good ones. In real life, a military base is a military base. They're not (primarily) created to support trade, facilitate diplomacy, repair and technical support for civilian cars or scientific experiments.
The fact that they have weapons and shields nevertheless is of course because those traders, diplomats and so on can become targets in the ST universe (which is usually due to other species' - including Klingon - and not Starfleet agressiveness) and we never saw much of a police force in the series.
But that of coursel doesn't make a starbase a purely military installation - and, hence, it doesn't justify indiscriminate killing on such a base or destroying it in its entirety.
wrong. obviously you have never been on a military base. or if you have, you have been sheltered from many aspects they have within.
If they are created for those other purposes, then it's not a military base.
It really is that simple. Sure, there are some countries that place bases all over the planet to support their foreign and trade policy, but generally speaking a military base isn't placed somewhere because you want to facilitate trade, diplomacy or experiments. There are other facilities for that. At least in the case of civilised countries that keep their military and other policies separated.
If that is the case then the US doesn't have any military bases by your definition. Every large base I know of has a PX, a hospital, guards, a mess hall, and a motor pool of some kind, along with other services, all of which are being increasingly switched over to civilian service providers. Also, bases often host some kind of research or engineering facilities that use civilian scientists, engineers, etc.
And then there are the the dependents that are housed on base or in the town or city that invariably springs up around them that provides needed services to the base that are not directly supplied by the military. In space were would that town be? In the same satellite that houses the base most likely.
On top of that, despite Roddenberry having to switch his pitch to "Wagon Train to the stars" to sell the series to a Hollywood tired of swashbucklers, Star Trek was originally based on Victorian sailing ship stories projected into the future along with modern allegories (he often mentioned the Hornblower novels in interviews for instance) and at that time military bases were quite often placed as safe commerce centers in an often rough frontier. That is one of the problems that TNG had, mugwumping between a Victorian-like deep frontiers story setup and today's 'small world' situation of instant communication and quick travel.
You guys are mixing things up. I specifically said, earlier, that Starfleet doesn't create its bases purely for military purposes. It has trade outposts, repair facilities and so on because those things are needed to support civilian activities.
A US military base is still created - primarily - for military purposes. The fact that it then has and does other stuff means that - in my opinion - you can discuss whether or not it's purely a military base. But whether or not you agree with this, it isn't even the most important thing (and not the primary point I was making). What matters is that a base operated by the US army is usually created for very different purposes than a starbase.
In Star Trek, bases can be compared to what would be petrol stations, garages, shops and trading hubs and so on here on Earth. These are necessary services and they are concentrated on these bases because they need to service a large area. They have weapons, yes, but that's because there's no way to keep them secure otherwise. That still doesn't make them military bases - or else a shop where the owner has a gun could be called a military base.
In any case, you don't create a military base here on Earth because you want civilians to be able to fill up their tank or trade some stuff. They obviously have very different purposes.
And that's why the comparison makes little sense imo.
That's also why the comparison with real life military bases aren't very good ones. In real life, a military base is a military base. They're not (primarily) created to support trade, facilitate diplomacy, to serve as repair and technical support stations for things like civilian cars or scientific experiments. Or even involved in those things at all.
facilitate diplomacy every naval station the US owns would like to disagree. The Navy hosts ships of her allies all the time, a purely DIPLOMATIC act.
repair and technical support stations for things like civilian cars or scientific experiments
Edwards Air force base, the Naval Ship research and development center, Bethesda naval hospital (and really any naval hospital) tend to disagree with you. at any given point in time there are large amounts of military dependents on base in on base housing. during work hours the numbers of civilian employees swells the population Many if not most bases have commissary and exchanges on post, and those are completely civilian run.
in other words, do not speak of which you do not know
Oh, it's advice sharing time. Ok then: don't reply if you can't be bothered to read someone's comment.
You're talking about military bases that have civilian facilities to support them. I was clearly talking about the reason why a military base is created or placed somewhere in the first place.
The date the blog takes place in doesn't matter nearly as much as this line does
The men of the Great Houses were content to play political games with her husband D’Lor, the “leader” of House Mo’kai. Another fool, in another burning house. The day would come soon when all debts would be collected, and her ascendancy would be all but inevitable. What is an empire without an emperor on the throne… or an empress?
because it clearly shows her ambitions of rule, which would not have faded even after getting thrown 150 years into the future.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
> @shadowfang240 said: > The date the blog takes place in doesn't matter nearly as much as this line does > because it clearly shows her ambitions of rule, which would not have faded even after getting thrown 150 years into the future.
Honestly from what I've seen that mentality wasn't that atypical among Klingons of 2250s and 25c Klingon empire isn't that different from the outside that it would obvious for J'Ula that she needs to totally rethink her philosophy.
The date the blog takes place in doesn't matter nearly as much as this line does
The men of the Great Houses were content to play political games with her husband D’Lor, the “leader” of House Mo’kai. Another fool, in another burning house. The day would come soon when all debts would be collected, and her ascendancy would be all but inevitable. What is an empire without an emperor on the throne… or an empress?
because it clearly shows her ambitions of rule, which would not have faded even after getting thrown 150 years into the future.
I agree, she's nuts. It is telling that the only thing that changed her mind was a vision of a possible future. Only then does she see her folly, because of some temporal magic.
None of the things she did bothered her, none of the people around her changed her mind or opened it to a different perspective, it was only the fact she would not get what she wanted.
That's also why the comparison with real life military bases aren't very good ones. In real life, a military base is a military base. They're not (primarily) created to support trade, facilitate diplomacy, to serve as repair and technical support stations for things like civilian cars or scientific experiments. Or even involved in those things at all.
facilitate diplomacy every naval station the US owns would like to disagree. The Navy hosts ships of her allies all the time, a purely DIPLOMATIC act.
repair and technical support stations for things like civilian cars or scientific experiments
Edwards Air force base, the Naval Ship research and development center, Bethesda naval hospital (and really any naval hospital) tend to disagree with you. at any given point in time there are large amounts of military dependents on base in on base housing. during work hours the numbers of civilian employees swells the population Many if not most bases have commissary and exchanges on post, and those are completely civilian run.
in other words, do not speak of which you do not know
Oh, it's advice sharing time. Ok then: don't reply if you can't be bothered someone's comment.
You're talking about military bases that have civilian facilities to support them. I was clearly talking about the reason why a military base is created or placed somewhere in the first place.
I hope my comment above clarifies things for you.
The thing is, even if you ignore the fact that current military bases have a lot of civilians on them and almost always have a town or city spring up around them, a Starbase is more like a Victorian era frontier base than a modern one. And those were put down as a combined military stronghold and civilian administrative center, safe harbors for trade, and protectors of (and often host to) colonies and friendly native settlements.
The question is whether a starbase is the local headquarters for the fleet in the area, is it where troops are housed when they are not out on an assault or garrisoning mission, is it a center for supplies and repair for the fleet, and the answer to all of that is yes. They are legitimate strategic targets no matter how you look at it.
And splitting an spaceborne starbase like Seedea into two satellites, one "military" and one "civilian" would not be doing the civilians any favors. The term 'worse than death' has quite a bit of meaning out on a frontier, and it is likely that in many cases the civilians would have preferred death over what happens to them after their protector half is destroyed.
As for the sequence of events, after J'Ula and her fleet ended up in 2410 she spent a year doing research to refine the weapon, gathering supplies, and trying to find the scattered and hidden survivors of the modern part of her house, (which was destroyed by house B'vat in 2389, and who went beyond custom by pursuing a bloody pogrom against Mo'kai), and generally doing things to get the house reformed and ready to be recognized as a great house again.
She succeeded in finding quite a few of the modern Mo'kai (apparently the bulk of house B'vat were morons who could not find their own backsides much less anyone else's) some of whom were embedded in the houses of their old allies which helped them repair, re-arm, and revamp J'Ula's fleet and apparently build more of the updated old designs (apparently just any TRIBBLE on the street cannot walk in and challenge the chancellor for the position, it has to be the leader of a great house or at least a significant one).
Anyway, after that year she apparently needed more information/samples/whatever for the mycelial weapon (or perhaps she was trying to get a version of the spore drive going) and started opening rifts to send probes in. She probably had no idea the probes were causing so much damage or why the Elachi tended to swarm out of the rifts, though she found a use for that phenomenon as a distraction for enemy forces.
Also, for some reason she could not just open rifts anywhere to place those probes, she had to open them in specific areas like Andor and Terrh and probably a few more in places that did not happen to be in starsystems inhabited by foreign powers.
Also, I think J'Ula did say something about not being proud of some of the things she had to do or words to that effect, not that what she did was that unusual for a Klingon anyway since they do some pretty nasty things and think nothing of it. They have a very rough and aggressive culture, not a more benign one like the Federation, and expediency can go quite far with them.
She succeeded in finding quite a few of the modern Mo'kai (apparently the bulk of house B'vat were morons who could not find their own backsides much less anyone else's) some of whom were embedded in the houses of their old allies which helped them repair, re-arm, and revamp J'Ula's fleet and apparently build more of the updated old designs (apparently just any TRIBBLE on the street cannot walk in and challenge the chancellor for the position, it has to be the leader of a great house or at least a significant one).
This actually makes sense and is a nice nod to realism, if everyone was able to challenge everyone without any limits the leadership of the Klingon Empire would in hands of those who spent all time practicing dueling but a great duelist isn't the same thing as a great leader.
To be a great leader one must after all have administrative skills learning which would reduce the time allowed to practice your dueling skills.
Not mention that Empire would be highly unstable if the drunk of the street could challenge the chancellor and potentially win the chancellor's seat, since there would constant challenges, however if there's limits as to who can challenge who and what can be gained (House Mogh was a great house and Worf technically its leader so any challenge Worf made should be viewed thru that lens) this would limit the number of challenges to number that would make possible for the Empire to function.
Nah J'Ula didn't really murder anyone, she was up for committing some war crimes with the mycelial weapon but her first attempt backfired and then it got hijacked by crazy eyes. And they don't give out nobel prizes for attempted chemistry.
She does however jump from foe to friend waaaayyyyy too quickly with her just suddenly apparently redeemed but it's a writing problem. Too little story content hampers storytelling whoda thunk.
The civil war story makes zero sense with a dsc protag because they would just not be ok with it all. But if you play as a kdf then it's serviceable if rushed.
Nah J'Ula didn't really murder anyone, she was up for committing some war crimes with the mycelial weapon but her first attempt backfired and then it got hijacked by crazy eyes. And they don't give out nobel prizes for attempted chemistry.
She does however jump from foe to friend waaaayyyyy too quickly with her just suddenly apparently redeemed but it's a writing problem. Too little story content hampers storytelling whoda thunk.
The civil war story makes zero sense with a dsc protag because they would just not be ok with it all. But if you play as a kdf then it's serviceable if rushed.
I've not done those missions with my AoD char but my main most definitely gave "You're not a friend just an ally of convenience" vibes when we teamed up with her the first time (my main is FED aliengen), granted it doesn't help that those missions were written for KDF characters first and everyone else second.
So...the exact opposite of what the KDF has been having to deal with for the past 10 years, where a good portion of missions were written from a Starfleet perspective, with Starfleet-esque dialogue aside from the occasional 'Qa'pla!' even if they were supposedly written to be faction-agnostic - I can't say this upsets me overly much that the shoe is now on the other foot.
Or, I suppose I should say WAS on the other foot, since YoK is now over - we'll be going back to those faction-agnostic missions once the next season or expansion-over-time hits...probably next year, unless they squeeze it in during fall.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
The civil war story makes zero sense with a dsc protag because they would just not be ok with it all. But if you play as a kdf then it's serviceable if rushed.
It's not great on the Romulan side, she gets a nice dialog of planning to crush the Republic under the Klingon Empire's heel to at least a Fed-aligned Rom in one of the pre Khitomer Discord missions.
Sort of was hoping the last cutscene would end with beaming out, with a bomb left behind in the Great Hall removing EVERY major militaristic figure left in the Empire, but eh, that's life.
Fate - protects fools, small children, and ships named Enterprise Will Riker
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
Comments
Yeah, actually I do remember that. In "For the Uniform" Sisko poisoned the atmosphere of a planet occupied by Maquis terrorists. Numerous unauthorized colonies were in the DMZ demarcated by treaties between the Federation and Cardassian Union. The Cardassians identified them as Federation citizens putting the Feds in violation of the treaties and putting the two powers at war. He would have done the same to other Maquis colonies as well. Sisko's action caused no casualties and averted a war that that would have killed hundreds? thousands? I'm calling that a win. It was a calculated decision that measured risks and and outcomes. Better outcome than J'ula rage quitting Seedea like a petulant child after an embarassing defeat.
Monac IV was a military installation constructed within striking distance of Federation assets for that purpose implicitly. In the case of the Cardassians it's a stretch to suggest it was a family affair loaded up with families like a Federation way station. In the case of the Jem Hadar they don't have families. Period.
The Cloaking segway into honour is a bit of a mess. I didn't say anything about knights charging but it would be stupid and not very Klingon. J'ula had to push a button. She would have won. She didn't have to lose a single ship. She blew her whole fleet(s), ran away after squandering her forces and then she blew up Seedea station. Glorious. If she had an earth inspired samurai overlord they would have demanded her head for wasting all that material pointlessly. As a commander with more limited resouces than the other belligerent in a conflict she did the dumbest thing possible; She squandered her material pointlessly. If you call that a win for her I'll give you that. They are called Pyrrhic victories.
Since I accidentally added this comment I might as well try to use it more constructively.
@somtaawkhar It's no coincidence the examples you cited came from DS9. The moral ambiguity and weight of often untenable decisions was at the heart of the series. Sisko often didn't make pretty, nice or "starfleet" decisions but that was point. Those decisions aren't always possible unless you idealize the setting. Sisko made hard decisions. He gambled but he hedged his bets, weighed his options, and acted to arrive at a resolution that was for a greater good. I'm surprised you didn't mention Vreenak and, "In the Pale Moonlight" but this episode best illustrates what makes Sisko different than J'Ula. He did something horrible after weighing the bodies but he suffered for it. Sisko struggled with his choices in spite of realizing the good that had come from them. J'ula never did that.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I'll admit I've never held my breath waiting for any MMO to win the industry equivalent of an Oscar for writing but the pew pew "plot" of an RTS game is a lower bar than I would have expected. It's not canon and so awful I don't feel like a canon snob for saying so. It's the kinder, gentler path anyway.
Enjoy your sky. Whatever colour it might be on your world.
You know, I'd be fine attacking a Starbase...but I'd like it to be DS9. I know we've got that one PVE where you're technically attacking, by beaming over squadrons, but imagine if the PVE was the battle of the Klingons against the station, or the Dominion, or if you're attacking the station itself while it's occupied by the Cardassians.
There have been episodes where your ship gets another ship's avatar, so you could be a Galor Class and I want DS9 firing phasers and torpedoes at me! That would be terrific and so much more fun.
If they are created for those other purposes, then it's not a military base.
It really is that simple. Sure, there are some countries that place bases all over the planet to support their foreign and trade policy, but generally speaking a military base isn't placed somewhere because you want to facilitate trade, diplomacy or experiments. There are other facilities for that. At least in the case of civilised countries that keep their military and other policies separated.
Great game in its own right, but it's not STO.
facilitate diplomacy every naval station the US owns would like to disagree. The Navy hosts ships of her allies all the time, a purely DIPLOMATIC act.
repair and technical support stations for things like civilian cars or scientific experiments
Edwards Air force base, the Naval Ship research and development center, Bethesda naval hospital (and really any naval hospital) tend to disagree with you. at any given point in time there are large amounts of military dependents on base in on base housing. during work hours the numbers of civilian employees swells the population Many if not most bases have commissary and exchanges on post, and those are completely civilian run.
in other words, do not speak of which you do not know
If that is the case then the US doesn't have any military bases by your definition. Every large base I know of has a PX, a hospital, guards, a mess hall, and a motor pool of some kind, along with other services, all of which are being increasingly switched over to civilian service providers. Also, bases often host some kind of research or engineering facilities that use civilian scientists, engineers, etc.
And then there are the the dependents that are housed on base or in the town or city that invariably springs up around them that provides needed services to the base that are not directly supplied by the military. In space were would that town be? In the same satellite that houses the base most likely.
On top of that, despite Roddenberry having to switch his pitch to "Wagon Train to the stars" to sell the series to a Hollywood tired of swashbucklers, Star Trek was originally based on Victorian sailing ship stories projected into the future along with modern allegories (he often mentioned the Hornblower novels in interviews for instance) and at that time military bases were quite often placed as safe commerce centers in an often rough frontier. That is one of the problems that TNG had, mugwumping between a Victorian-like deep frontiers story setup and today's 'small world' situation of instant communication and quick travel.
You "host" allied navies to project your combined military power. It's a flex. Look at the RimPac exercises. It runs out of Pearl and "hosts" allied navies. You have exercises to improve coordination between the nation's assets and to scare the local "bad guys". Defence agreements are bigger than, "We shoot in the same direction when the shooting starts". Naval stations repair, provisions their own vessels and fuel allied ships to extend their ranges when RAS isn't practical; Or if an allied country even has the capability.
A military target is a military target. If you want to embed civilians in a military installation you are placing them in harm's way. It's a hedged bet. It's a QoL thing in peacetime and if you have civilian casualties you can fire up everyone at home because they are killing civilians. I would feel sympathy for the clerk at a PX if they got killed in an attack. A white coat working in a lab conducting weapons research; Not so much.
The shipyard destruction was post her attack on Andoria and use of the superweapon we learned could destroy all life in every universe, and her probes that were corrupting the mushroom kingdom. She uses her superweapon repeatedly and recklessly during that STF (and at Andoria) to pull through angry Elachi, which are invaders to our universe by any standard, and are an existential threat themselves. We, especially Romulans, know very well what an Elachi invasion portends.
And as for Feudalism, J'ula had not made any claim for leadership of the Empire, nor any other even partially legitimate cause. The Empire was not at war with anyone involved at the time, with J'ula acting completely on her own as a rogue house, attacking seemingly at random, while inviting hostile foreign forces to invade.
I'll compare to what I want to, and if you have a problem with my argument then address it directly. You have made no counterargument for why using real world examples is a bad argument.
The problem is no one was at war. Imagining being at war isn't relevant because no one was under any illusion of being at war. There were no demands made that could be negotiated, no dispute that is being argued. J'ula comes out of no where and starts attacking the Federation (this when her real goal was civil war.) Her attacks were unjustified, unprovoked, and unsupported by her nation, and we know she isn't fresh out of the time warp where it might be understandable. She made no attempt to even communicate her goals and demands. She is a terrorist, plain and simple. She's not a state actor, because her state disavows her.
She also made her position clear, if not directly stating her desire, during her speech on Qo'nos that, if Martok wouldn't reclaim the chancellorship from J'mpok, she would have no issue doing so instead - a position she maintained all the way up until that first vision on Boreth.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
What the...? Whatever. You aren't to be taken seriously on this topic. Noted.
As far as I am aware, that specific Blog was her in the 2250s. The next one with her is her in the present trying to find house Mokai again.
And yes she made her position clear, after her attack at Andoria, and then goes and blows up a Federation Starbase! Because that makes sense somehow. Why not blow up a Klingon Starbase with loyalists to J'mpok?
Her whole arc is her being stuck in the past wanting war with the Federation till she realizes she's not getting the war because J'mpok isn't a complete idiot, so she wants to depose him, and take over the Empire to get her war, and then abruptly is supposed to be sympathetic to the player as we help her overthrow J'mpok so that she can instead install a zombie as Chancellor, and then what?
A new war with the Federation? No, that's supposed to be what she learned, that she's been an idiot this entire time, and war with the Federation would be disastrous for the Empire, which means all her acts of aggression against the Federation were wrong and if she got what she wanted the Empire would be in ruins, ultimately, which was her vision on Boreth.
You guys are mixing things up. I specifically said, earlier, that Starfleet doesn't create its bases purely for military purposes. It has trade outposts, repair facilities and so on because those things are needed to support civilian activities.
A US military base is still created - primarily - for military purposes. The fact that it then has and does other stuff means that - in my opinion - you can discuss whether or not it's purely a military base. But whether or not you agree with this, it isn't even the most important thing (and not the primary point I was making). What matters is that a base operated by the US army is usually created for very different purposes than a starbase.
In Star Trek, bases can be compared to what would be petrol stations, garages, shops and trading hubs and so on here on Earth. These are necessary services and they are concentrated on these bases because they need to service a large area. They have weapons, yes, but that's because there's no way to keep them secure otherwise. That still doesn't make them military bases - or else a shop where the owner has a gun could be called a military base.
In any case, you don't create a military base here on Earth because you want civilians to be able to fill up their tank or trade some stuff. They obviously have very different purposes.
And that's why the comparison makes little sense imo.
Oh, it's advice sharing time. Ok then: don't reply if you can't be bothered to read someone's comment.
You're talking about military bases that have civilian facilities to support them. I was clearly talking about the reason why a military base is created or placed somewhere in the first place.
I hope my comment above clarifies things for you.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
> The date the blog takes place in doesn't matter nearly as much as this line does
> because it clearly shows her ambitions of rule, which would not have faded even after getting thrown 150 years into the future.
Honestly from what I've seen that mentality wasn't that atypical among Klingons of 2250s and 25c Klingon empire isn't that different from the outside that it would obvious for J'Ula that she needs to totally rethink her philosophy.
I agree, she's nuts. It is telling that the only thing that changed her mind was a vision of a possible future. Only then does she see her folly, because of some temporal magic.
None of the things she did bothered her, none of the people around her changed her mind or opened it to a different perspective, it was only the fact she would not get what she wanted.
The thing is, even if you ignore the fact that current military bases have a lot of civilians on them and almost always have a town or city spring up around them, a Starbase is more like a Victorian era frontier base than a modern one. And those were put down as a combined military stronghold and civilian administrative center, safe harbors for trade, and protectors of (and often host to) colonies and friendly native settlements.
The question is whether a starbase is the local headquarters for the fleet in the area, is it where troops are housed when they are not out on an assault or garrisoning mission, is it a center for supplies and repair for the fleet, and the answer to all of that is yes. They are legitimate strategic targets no matter how you look at it.
And splitting an spaceborne starbase like Seedea into two satellites, one "military" and one "civilian" would not be doing the civilians any favors. The term 'worse than death' has quite a bit of meaning out on a frontier, and it is likely that in many cases the civilians would have preferred death over what happens to them after their protector half is destroyed.
As for the sequence of events, after J'Ula and her fleet ended up in 2410 she spent a year doing research to refine the weapon, gathering supplies, and trying to find the scattered and hidden survivors of the modern part of her house, (which was destroyed by house B'vat in 2389, and who went beyond custom by pursuing a bloody pogrom against Mo'kai), and generally doing things to get the house reformed and ready to be recognized as a great house again.
She succeeded in finding quite a few of the modern Mo'kai (apparently the bulk of house B'vat were morons who could not find their own backsides much less anyone else's) some of whom were embedded in the houses of their old allies which helped them repair, re-arm, and revamp J'Ula's fleet and apparently build more of the updated old designs (apparently just any TRIBBLE on the street cannot walk in and challenge the chancellor for the position, it has to be the leader of a great house or at least a significant one).
Anyway, after that year she apparently needed more information/samples/whatever for the mycelial weapon (or perhaps she was trying to get a version of the spore drive going) and started opening rifts to send probes in. She probably had no idea the probes were causing so much damage or why the Elachi tended to swarm out of the rifts, though she found a use for that phenomenon as a distraction for enemy forces.
Also, for some reason she could not just open rifts anywhere to place those probes, she had to open them in specific areas like Andor and Terrh and probably a few more in places that did not happen to be in starsystems inhabited by foreign powers.
Also, I think J'Ula did say something about not being proud of some of the things she had to do or words to that effect, not that what she did was that unusual for a Klingon anyway since they do some pretty nasty things and think nothing of it. They have a very rough and aggressive culture, not a more benign one like the Federation, and expediency can go quite far with them.
To be a great leader one must after all have administrative skills learning which would reduce the time allowed to practice your dueling skills.
Not mention that Empire would be highly unstable if the drunk of the street could challenge the chancellor and potentially win the chancellor's seat, since there would constant challenges, however if there's limits as to who can challenge who and what can be gained (House Mogh was a great house and Worf technically its leader so any challenge Worf made should be viewed thru that lens) this would limit the number of challenges to number that would make possible for the Empire to function.
She does however jump from foe to friend waaaayyyyy too quickly with her just suddenly apparently redeemed but it's a writing problem. Too little story content hampers storytelling whoda thunk.
The civil war story makes zero sense with a dsc protag because they would just not be ok with it all. But if you play as a kdf then it's serviceable if rushed.
I've not done those missions with my AoD char but my main most definitely gave "You're not a friend just an ally of convenience" vibes when we teamed up with her the first time (my main is FED aliengen), granted it doesn't help that those missions were written for KDF characters first and everyone else second.
Or, I suppose I should say WAS on the other foot, since YoK is now over - we'll be going back to those faction-agnostic missions once the next season or expansion-over-time hits...probably next year, unless they squeeze it in during fall.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
It's not great on the Romulan side, she gets a nice dialog of planning to crush the Republic under the Klingon Empire's heel to at least a Fed-aligned Rom in one of the pre Khitomer Discord missions.
Sort of was hoping the last cutscene would end with beaming out, with a bomb left behind in the Great Hall removing EVERY major militaristic figure left in the Empire, but eh, that's life.
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!