I think you're also misunderstanding what I was trying to say in the first place. I wasn't saying FTL is impossible after The Burn. I was trying to explain why everyone and their grandmother has Warp Drive to begin with.
Yes, I did lose track of the point I was trying to make. My point was that calling it a warp drive doesn't mean much, because just like guns, swords and engines, they are very different on some level. Unfortunately we don't know much at all about warp drives and their differences.
The Federation has no reason to look at alternatives to dilithium crystals because they were plentiful enough and could be recrystalized, thus their warp cores would rely on them.
Romulan D'deridexs have a singularity core not a warp core. What does that mean, especially w/respect to dilithium? We have no idea. Given that Roms used warp cores in the past, it seems like the singularity core is an advancement over the warp core, but it allows them to achieve warp travel.
But even for other species, we don't know the specifics of their warp designs. We already know warp can be achieved without dilithium, so perhaps other species that also lacked dilithium crystals have developed other methods for faster warp drives. We just don't know.
Or it could be just bad writing. Dilithium crystals just make it easier to control matter-antimatter reactions. It is not necessary for warp travel. In fact, it is possible to control matter-antimatter reactions with less efficient methods since we are currently able to contain antimatter for a limited time. It is actually surprising that no one was able to come up with an alternative power source like Zero Point Energy and implement it within the centuries between the 24th Century and the Burn.
> @captainhaseo said: > so 78 years after STO's current stardate the Burn happens
No. According to the episode it was 100,150 years before season 3. STO takes place in the 25th century. Disco season 3 takes place in the 32nd century.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
> @captainhaseo said:
> so 78 years after STO's current stardate the Burn happens
No. According to the episode it was 100,150 years before season 3.
STO takes place in the 25th century. Disco season 3 takes place in the 32nd century.
Stone knives worked. Sailing ships worked. The Model T Ford worked.
Barely, in all cases. Stone knives break and chip easily, and are difficult to keep sharp. Sailing ships are at the mercy of the winds, one of the reasons many ancient civilizations combined them with giant oars. The Model T was intentionally an early iteration of the design, made as cheaply and quickly as possible, with the aim of making a better car with the profits. (And other cars, better built and designed, were also available at the time - the Model T was far from the very first car, it was just the first one to be mass-manufactured. Ford's major invention wasn't cars, it was the assembly line, something that's only been improved upon over time rather than being supplanted.)
On the other hand, the first single-edged metal blade was made about 4000 years ago. All we've done since then is refine the materials and design - the basic concept has been constant. Similarly, warp drive, first developed a billion years ago by the Progenitors, still seems to be the most practical method of getting around the galaxy; there are other methods, but either they're less reliable or markedly more difficult (just as one could theoretically use a water knife to carve bread, or a fission reactor to power your car, but in both cases the costs and availability of materials are excessive for the results achieved).
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
I never said that it was the ONLY method. Just the most effecient that they know of.
And Starfleet DID develop other methods, as Book mentions Transwarp and Slipstream. But based on that its clear that they still have some form of limitation that makes it less desirable than standard, tried and true Warp Drive.
Slipstream apparently requires a material that is extremely scarce. And their version of Transwarp is only viable for short hops without risking damage to the ship.
Again it links back to the car engine analogy. Yes there were alternatives, but which had the least amount of disadvantages and thus was easier to make widely available?
Ultimately we're still working with little to no information on the time period. We need more information.
i question that, frankly...the transwarp coil voyager swiped carried them over 10,000 LY before it gave out...at no point did they say they had to keep dropping out of transwarp to avoid damage to the ship - though, maybe they did and that's WHY the coil burnt out
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
i question that, frankly...the transwarp coil voyager swiped carried them over 10,000 LY before it gave out...at no point did they say they had to keep dropping out of transwarp to avoid damage to the ship - though, maybe they did and that's WHY the coil burnt out
Its part of canon that moving through transwarp puts such intense pressures on a ship that even a Borg Cube has to project a powerful structural integrity field in front of itself in order to prevent from being damaged.
We saw in Picard that weaker vessels, like La Sirena, are shaking like crazy just after even a few minutes in Transwarp. Even with a field applied. It doesn't seem viable for most civilian craft to be able to withstand Transwarp for very long.
More powerful, military grade, vessels like a Gaalxy, and Intrepid could.
And that would just mean using Carrier ships like how the Heighliner ships in the Dune universe worked. Any smaller passenger ships and cargo ships are stored as cargo within the far bigger ship that uses Transwarp Drive. So the transwarp ships would transport smaller ships to certain transportation hubs and the smaller ships would use standard FTL drives to get to their destination.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
And that would just mean using Carrier ships like how the Heighliner ships in the Dune universe worked. Any smaller passenger ships and cargo ships are stored as cargo within the far bigger ship that uses Transwarp Drive. So the transwarp ships would transport smaller ships to certain transportation hubs and the smaller ships would use standard FTL drives to get to their destination.
Sounds a bit more like the Jumpships from Battletech to me.
Its part of canon that moving through transwarp puts such intense pressures on a ship that even a Borg Cube has to project a powerful structural integrity field in front of itself in order to prevent from being damaged.
We saw in Picard that weaker vessels, like La Sirena, are shaking like crazy just after even a few minutes in Transwarp. Even with a field applied. It doesn't seem viable for most civilian craft to be able to withstand Transwarp for very long.
More powerful, military grade, vessels like a Gaalxy, and Intrepid could.
I honestly attributed it to the sheer size of Borg ships, as Voyager never seemed to need to do that. But we are also talking about Transwarp Conduits as developed by the Borg. The only non Conduit based Transwarp I can think of comes from the Voth.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Book didn't actually mention transwarp, unless that was his point about trilithium. He needed benamite if he was going to use quantum slipstream, and apparently benamite is at least as hard to come by as dilithium, "and don't even get me started on trilithium."
And Val, you're being deliberately obtuse at this point. Refinement of an existing design is not the same thing as inventing a completely new technology. We can make steel knives more easily today than we did 4000 years ago, with higher-quality steel, but the technology itself would be completely familiar to, say, a Roman soldier or a Greek hoplite. Our modern assembly lines are automated where possible, but Henry Ford would have no trouble figuring one out. (For that matter, cars wouldn't be that hard for him - a modern internal-combustion engine may have more complicated bits on it, but the underlying concept is constant.)
and the fact the delta flyer experienced no issues in transwarp either, despite shuttle armor being paper thin - even that shuttle
It could be due to the Delta Flyer being more aerodynamic than Voyager or Borg Cubes. Voth ships are far more aerodynamic than Borg Cubes so the Voth City ship would not experience as much gravimetric shear as a Borg Cube.
> @valoreah said: > (Quote) > > (...) I just do not buy the Federation knowing ahead of time that dilithium was becoming more scarce, but they just decided to stick with it instead of developing something new.
That is the RL parallel, however. Kurtzman isn't very clever with these things and turned the UFP into Trumpistan in Picard, and now this would fit into the unsustainability of fossil fuels and the conservative factions trying to keep things going.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Book didn't actually mention transwarp, unless that was his point about trilithium. He needed benamite if he was going to use quantum slipstream, and apparently benamite is at least as hard to come by as dilithium, "and don't even get me started on trilithium."
And Val, you're being deliberately obtuse at this point. Refinement of an existing design is not the same thing as inventing a completely new technology. We can make steel knives more easily today than we did 4000 years ago, with higher-quality steel, but the technology itself would be completely familiar to, say, a Roman soldier or a Greek hoplite. Our modern assembly lines are automated where possible, but Henry Ford would have no trouble figuring one out. (For that matter, cars wouldn't be that hard for him - a modern internal-combustion engine may have more complicated bits on it, but the underlying concept is constant.)
Romans cut down trees with axes or saws. Now we have chainsaws. It is a different tech but it does the same thing the old tech did. Vacuum tubes were replaced by transistors were replaced by integrated circuits. Why couldn't there be a replacement tech for the dilithium crystal's role in the common warp drive?
Val, you persist in this insistence that Romulan ships didn't use dilithium at all. Where are your Romulan ship schematics?
What we know is that the D'Deridex-class heavy cruiser didn't use matter/antimatter for a reaction, instead deriving the power necessary to induce a Cochrane reaction from exploiting the gravitational potential (and Hawking radiation) of an artificially-generated quantum singularity, a "mini black hole". Geordi might have made some guesses, but it's not like he was given a guided tour of the engine room.
How do you know the Romulans came up with an alternative version of warp drive, the standard method of FTL across thousands of cultures from the Dominion to the Hierarchy to the Tkon, that didn't use dilithium?
Comments
Or it could be just bad writing. Dilithium crystals just make it easier to control matter-antimatter reactions. It is not necessary for warp travel. In fact, it is possible to control matter-antimatter reactions with less efficient methods since we are currently able to contain antimatter for a limited time. It is actually surprising that no one was able to come up with an alternative power source like Zero Point Energy and implement it within the centuries between the 24th Century and the Burn.
> so 78 years after STO's current stardate the Burn happens
No. According to the episode it was 100,150 years before season 3.
STO takes place in the 25th century. Disco season 3 takes place in the 32nd century.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
ahhh ok stupid math lol
On the other hand, the first single-edged metal blade was made about 4000 years ago. All we've done since then is refine the materials and design - the basic concept has been constant. Similarly, warp drive, first developed a billion years ago by the Progenitors, still seems to be the most practical method of getting around the galaxy; there are other methods, but either they're less reliable or markedly more difficult (just as one could theoretically use a water knife to carve bread, or a fission reactor to power your car, but in both cases the costs and availability of materials are excessive for the results achieved).
And Starfleet DID develop other methods, as Book mentions Transwarp and Slipstream. But based on that its clear that they still have some form of limitation that makes it less desirable than standard, tried and true Warp Drive.
Slipstream apparently requires a material that is extremely scarce. And their version of Transwarp is only viable for short hops without risking damage to the ship.
Again it links back to the car engine analogy. Yes there were alternatives, but which had the least amount of disadvantages and thus was easier to make widely available?
Ultimately we're still working with little to no information on the time period. We need more information.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
And that would just mean using Carrier ships like how the Heighliner ships in the Dune universe worked. Any smaller passenger ships and cargo ships are stored as cargo within the far bigger ship that uses Transwarp Drive. So the transwarp ships would transport smaller ships to certain transportation hubs and the smaller ships would use standard FTL drives to get to their destination.
Sounds a bit more like the Jumpships from Battletech to me.
I honestly attributed it to the sheer size of Borg ships, as Voyager never seemed to need to do that. But we are also talking about Transwarp Conduits as developed by the Borg. The only non Conduit based Transwarp I can think of comes from the Voth.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
And Val, you're being deliberately obtuse at this point. Refinement of an existing design is not the same thing as inventing a completely new technology. We can make steel knives more easily today than we did 4000 years ago, with higher-quality steel, but the technology itself would be completely familiar to, say, a Roman soldier or a Greek hoplite. Our modern assembly lines are automated where possible, but Henry Ford would have no trouble figuring one out. (For that matter, cars wouldn't be that hard for him - a modern internal-combustion engine may have more complicated bits on it, but the underlying concept is constant.)
It could be due to the Delta Flyer being more aerodynamic than Voyager or Borg Cubes. Voth ships are far more aerodynamic than Borg Cubes so the Voth City ship would not experience as much gravimetric shear as a Borg Cube.
> (Quote)
>
> (...) I just do not buy the Federation knowing ahead of time that dilithium was becoming more scarce, but they just decided to stick with it instead of developing something new.
That is the RL parallel, however. Kurtzman isn't very clever with these things and turned the UFP into Trumpistan in Picard, and now this would fit into the unsustainability of fossil fuels and the conservative factions trying to keep things going.
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Romans cut down trees with axes or saws. Now we have chainsaws. It is a different tech but it does the same thing the old tech did. Vacuum tubes were replaced by transistors were replaced by integrated circuits. Why couldn't there be a replacement tech for the dilithium crystal's role in the common warp drive?
What we know is that the D'Deridex-class heavy cruiser didn't use matter/antimatter for a reaction, instead deriving the power necessary to induce a Cochrane reaction from exploiting the gravitational potential (and Hawking radiation) of an artificially-generated quantum singularity, a "mini black hole". Geordi might have made some guesses, but it's not like he was given a guided tour of the engine room.
How do you know the Romulans came up with an alternative version of warp drive, the standard method of FTL across thousands of cultures from the Dominion to the Hierarchy to the Tkon, that didn't use dilithium?