So....... I just had a thought. Ok, so we know the ancient civilization that sent the warning was elimnated a long time, ago and presumably was active in modern day Romulan space. Picard specificly says the message dates back 200,000 years ago. even though Jurati never says that, so mild writing slip up, now.. what highly advanced civilization dissappered 200,000 years ago in the star trek universe?
Lore actually has an answer to what can move stars after all. https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Tkon_Empire
The Tkon Empire was a massive empire that existed over 600,000 years ago. The Empire had a population of trillions and was highly advanced technologically. The Tkon had the ability to move entire stars, using planets as outposts for defense. They employed guardians known as portals to defend these outposts and to act as gatekeepers for those seeking entry to the Empire.
I kinda thought there was something before them then decided to look it up thought it was iken empire but then went tken and then found it was Tkon. Given The Tkon have the power to move Stars lore wise and lore wise having that being part of their lore and Star moving pointed out in their lore. Logiacally it would be the Tkon's that placed the Eight Fold Stars.
Wasn't the story behind the T'Kon Empire's fall that its star went supernova? Maybe a tool in the arsenal of this alleged enemy?
Though just because the T'Kon was one race that could move stars doesn't have to mean that it was the only one. (In STO, the Iconians can do it with their Dyson Spheres!)
But it was always a bit odd to me that ancient space-faring civilizations could be eradicated by anything so completely that none of the presently active races was considered even a descendant of these civilizations. Of course, that might be more a story-telling conceit - space exploration is more exciting if you can also find the remnants of lost civilizations. Otherwise every exploration story is either a natural phenomena or an active alien species with which you can try to communicate and must negotiate further interaction.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Wasn't the story behind the T'Kon Empire's fall that its star went supernova? Maybe a tool in the arsenal of this alleged enemy?
Though just because the T'Kon was one race that could move stars doesn't have to mean that it was the only one. (In STO, the Iconians can do it with their Dyson Spheres!)
But it was always a bit odd to me that ancient space-faring civilizations could be eradicated by anything so completely that none of the presently active races was considered even a descendant of these civilizations. Of course, that might be more a story-telling conceit - space exploration is more exciting if you can also find the remnants of lost civilizations. Otherwise every exploration story is either a natural phenomena or an active alien species with which you can try to communicate and must negotiate further interaction.
There is other connections that support the T'kons from Memory Alpha.
Mudd's androids
A Class K planet was inhabited by thousands of advanced androids originally from the Andromeda Galaxy. Their makers had established outposts throughout their own galaxy, and had built only a handful of outposts in the Milky Way Galaxy; however, when the sun of their home star system went nova, most of their civilization was destroyed. The remaining makers died out over time, leaving only distant outposts of androids.
These androids had their first encounter with native life in the Milky Way when infamous criminal Harcourt Fenton "Harry" Mudd, having escaped from imminent execution on Deneb V on charges of fraud, fled known space and crash landed on their planet in 2268. Mudd was hardly an ideal model of Humanity, and the androids decided that Humans were a form of galactic pest that needed to be contained for their own protection (and the protection of the galaxy). These androids could have an operational lifespan of up to 500,000 years, and had access to advanced medical technology which could let them transplant humanoid brains into android bodies to grant them virtual immortality.
The Decline or extinction of the T'kon's could be the results of these Androids rising up against their own makers and given stars were arranged to warn Milky Way Civilizations could avoid making the same mistake they did. Tkon lore compared to Mudd Android lore. It not only fits but the evidence supports it.
The Tkon Empire was a massive empire that existed over 600,000 years ago. The Empire had a population of trillions and was highly advanced technologically. The Tkon had the ability to move entire stars, using planets as outposts for defense. They employed guardians known as portals to defend these outposts and to act as gatekeepers for those seeking entry to the Empire.
Romulan Star goes Supernova they have heard the message of a civilization who could move star's and likely their own went supernova as that civilization had the exact same thing happen to them. Its very interesting indeed.
'Since before your sun burned hot in space and before your race was born, I have awaited a question.'
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
The T'kon would make sense time and technology wise though they are one of the worst examples of the "if you kill the homeworld, you wipe out the entire civilization" nonsense that TNG so often fell into.
The Iconian virus could be used as a weapon against synthetic life. If the Tkon Empire was completely reliant on their androids, then the Iconians could have wiped them out easily.
Or the Iconians could have developed the virus from Contagion as a defense against an enemy who used armies of androids or automated ships like the Doomsday Device. Those enemies would probably not be the T'kon though, since they were wiped out about 400,000 years before the Iconians were.
The 200,000 years number works perfectly for the Iconians, but for some reason there are two entirely different numbers floating around the various boards, 200,000 years and 200,000 centuries (did someone flub their lines so both were used in the episode?). The 200,000 century one would fit the T'kon in that they are the first civilization mentioned in Trek with the technology to move stars, though they were long dead by the more recent time.
It could indirectly involve both civilizations though, the eight star system could have been some T'kon proof of concept toy or whatever that the Iconians ran across later and used, or it could have been the homeworld of one of the Iconian's enemies or even a system blocked from the Iconian gateways by some quirk of the configuration (similar to how Stargates can be blocked or otherwise distorted by the target planet being covered by the system's sun (from the starting planet's point of view) in the series of the same name).
Yes, 'Prototype'. The Automated Personnel Unit. STO has them in the Delta 'Sakari System Patrol'. The APU Crusier is availible in game from the Infinity T5 Selection Pack. It is a 9 Console Ship that can be upgraded to T5U with an Upgrade Token.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Star Trek Picard is not showing 'corruption' it is doing straight out assassination of the Federation.
It is incredible a Federation Captain would murder unarmed passengers on their ship.
It is incredible the Federation Captain did so because he was ORDERED to do so.
It is beyond incredible the Federation Captain legitimately thought Starfleet would destroy an entire ship for not obeying this order.
We have seen Starfleet training, we have seen how Starfleet officers are trained to react under fire and we have even seen how they react when forced to engage each other.
From all that evidence: It is implausible to the point of absurdity this situation occured. The only way it works is if some fantastic revisionist history or straight out narrative abuse is pulled.
The same kind of revisionism and abuse ST:P has already engaged in by making everything disgusting, grungy, swearing and dark.
We had a brutal torture scene
We have had multiple vivid mass execution scenes
We have had multiple graphic depictions of suicide
We have had excessive amounts of brutal and graphic murder
DS9 is often stated as being 'dark' - You can be dark and edgy without having to resort to the methods ST:P is doing.
The bottom line is this: ST:P is being narratively and cinematically directed by children that seem to have no class or actual ability to do anything but do cheap shock tactics. As a result, they have to fill the screen with excessive amounts of violence to make the villians actually appear villians rather than be subtle.
DS9 did not need to depict the Cardassians TRIBBLE or mass murdering Bajorans for the message of them being bad to get through.
You might want to actually WATCH Star Trek once in a while:
ANAN: Don't you understand, Captain? We have done away with all that. Now you are threatening to bring it down on us again. Are those five hundred people of yours more important than the hundreds of millions of innocent people on Eminiar and Vendikar? What kind of monster are you?
KIRK: I'm a barbarian. You said it yourself.
ANAN: I had hoped I'd spoken only figuratively.
KIRK: Oh, no. You were quite accurate. I plan to prove it to you.
ANAN: Open a channel to the Enterprise. You give me no choice, Captain. We are not bandits, but you force us to act as bandits.
SCOTT [OC]: This is the USS Enterprise.
KIRK: Scotty, General Order Twenty Four. Two hours! In two hours!
ANAN: Enterprise, this is Anan Seven, First Councilman of the High Council of Eminiar.
[Bridge]
ANAN [OC]: We hold your Captain, his party, your Ambassador and his party prisoners.
[Council Room]
ANAN: Unless you immediately start transportation of all personnel aboard your ship to the surface, the hostages will be killed. You have thirty minutes. I mean it, Captain.
KIRK: All that it means is that I won't be around for the destruction. You heard me give General Order Twenty Four. That means in two hours the Enterprise will destroy Eminiar Seven.
...
[Bridge]
SCOTT: Open a channel, Lieutenant. This is the commander of the USS Enterprise.
[Council Room]
SCOTT [OC]: All cities and installations on Eminiar Seven have been located, identified, and fed into our fire-control system. In one hour and forty five minutes
[Bridge]
SCOTT: The entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed.
[Council Room]
SCOTT: You have that long to surrender your hostages.
MCCOY: I'm sorry, Captain. I've tried everything I can. Variant radiation, intense heat, even as great as nine thousand degrees.
KIRK: Then you're wasting your time. There has to be something that'll kill the creature without destroying the human host.
MCCOY: Which happens to be my point. The thing won't die, even at temperatures and radiation which would burn Spock and your nephew to ashes.
KIRK: I can't accept that, Bones. We've got fourteen science labs aboard this ship. The finest equipment and computers in the galaxy.
MCCOY: Captain, I understand your concern. Your affection for Spock, the fact that your nephew is the last survivor of your brother's family.
KIRK: No, no, Bones. There's more than two lives at stake here. I cannot let it spread beyond this colony, even if it means destroying a million people down there.
TOS S1 "The Menagerie (Part 1)":
KIRK: (reading) For eyes of Starfleet Command only.
MENDEZ: Oh, I'm certifying I ordered you to read it. Know anything at all about this planet?
KIRK: What every ship Captain knows. General Order 7, no vessel under any condition, emergency or otherwise, is to visit Talos Four.
MENDEZ: And to do so is the only death penalty left on our books. Only Fleet Command knows why. Not even this file explains that. (unlocks the magnetic strip) But it does name the only Earth ship that ever visited the planet.
KIRK: The Enterprise, commanded by Captain Christopher Pike.
MENDEZ: With a half Vulcan science officer named Spock.
NECHAYEV: Captain, I've read the report that you submitted to Admiral Brooks last year regarding the Borg you called Hugh, and I've been trying to figure out why you let him go.
PICARD: I thought that I had made that clear.
NECHAYEV: As I understand, it you found a single Borg at a crash site, brought it aboard the Enterprise, studied it, analysed it, and eventually found a way to send it back to the Borg with a programme that would have destroyed the entire collective once and for all. But instead, you nursed the Borg back to health, treated it like a guest, gave it a name, and then sent it home. Why?
PICARD: When Hugh was separated from the Borg collective he began to grow and to evolve into something other than an automaton. He became a person. When that happened, I felt I had no choice but to respect his rights as an individual.
NECHAYEV: Of course you had a choice. You could've taken the opportunity to rid the Federation of a mortal enemy, one that has killed tens of thousands of innocent people, and which may kill even more.
PICARD: No one is more aware of the danger than I am. But I am also bound by my oath and my conscience to uphold certain principles. And I will not sacrifice them in order to
NECHAYEV: Your priority is to safeguard the lives of Federation citizens, not to wrestle with your conscience. Now I want to make it clear that if you have a similar opportunity in the future, an opportunity to destroy the Borg, you are under orders to take advantage of it. Is that understood?
PICARD: Yes, sir.
So yeah, please spare me the "The Federation is evil, and has never been shown in Star Trek to take desperate measures to protect itself before STP..." bit. The Federation and Star Fleet have often been shown from the VERY BEGINNING of this 50+ year franchise that they have no issues taking drastic steps on occasion to safe guard themselves and their citizens from what they see as a major threat.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Star Trek Picard is not showing 'corruption' it is doing straight out assassination of the Federation.
It is incredible a Federation Captain would murder unarmed passengers on their ship.
It is incredible the Federation Captain did so because he was ORDERED to do so.
It is beyond incredible the Federation Captain legitimately thought Starfleet would destroy an entire ship for not obeying this order.
We have seen Starfleet training, we have seen how Starfleet officers are trained to react under fire and we have even seen how they react when forced to engage each other.
From all that evidence: It is implausible to the point of absurdity this situation occured. The only way it works is if some fantastic revisionist history or straight out narrative abuse is pulled.
The same kind of revisionism and abuse ST:P has already engaged in by making everything disgusting, grungy, swearing and dark.
We had a brutal torture scene
We have had multiple vivid mass execution scenes
We have had multiple graphic depictions of suicide
We have had excessive amounts of brutal and graphic murder
DS9 is often stated as being 'dark' - You can be dark and edgy without having to resort to the methods ST:P is doing.
The bottom line is this: ST:P is being narratively and cinematically directed by children that seem to have no class or actual ability to do anything but do cheap shock tactics. As a result, they have to fill the screen with excessive amounts of violence to make the villians actually appear villians rather than be subtle.
DS9 did not need to depict the Cardassians TRIBBLE or mass murdering Bajorans for the message of them being bad to get through.
You might want to actually WATCH Star Trek once in a while:
ANAN: Don't you understand, Captain? We have done away with all that. Now you are threatening to bring it down on us again. Are those five hundred people of yours more important than the hundreds of millions of innocent people on Eminiar and Vendikar? What kind of monster are you?
KIRK: I'm a barbarian. You said it yourself.
ANAN: I had hoped I'd spoken only figuratively.
KIRK: Oh, no. You were quite accurate. I plan to prove it to you.
ANAN: Open a channel to the Enterprise. You give me no choice, Captain. We are not bandits, but you force us to act as bandits.
SCOTT [OC]: This is the USS Enterprise.
KIRK: Scotty, General Order Twenty Four. Two hours! In two hours!
ANAN: Enterprise, this is Anan Seven, First Councilman of the High Council of Eminiar.
[Bridge]
ANAN [OC]: We hold your Captain, his party, your Ambassador and his party prisoners.
[Council Room]
ANAN: Unless you immediately start transportation of all personnel aboard your ship to the surface, the hostages will be killed. You have thirty minutes. I mean it, Captain.
KIRK: All that it means is that I won't be around for the destruction. You heard me give General Order Twenty Four. That means in two hours the Enterprise will destroy Eminiar Seven.
...
[Bridge]
SCOTT: Open a channel, Lieutenant. This is the commander of the USS Enterprise.
[Council Room]
SCOTT [OC]: All cities and installations on Eminiar Seven have been located, identified, and fed into our fire-control system. In one hour and forty five minutes
[Bridge]
SCOTT: The entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed.
[Council Room]
SCOTT: You have that long to surrender your hostages.
MCCOY: I'm sorry, Captain. I've tried everything I can. Variant radiation, intense heat, even as great as nine thousand degrees.
KIRK: Then you're wasting your time. There has to be something that'll kill the creature without destroying the human host.
MCCOY: Which happens to be my point. The thing won't die, even at temperatures and radiation which would burn Spock and your nephew to ashes.
KIRK: I can't accept that, Bones. We've got fourteen science labs aboard this ship. The finest equipment and computers in the galaxy.
MCCOY: Captain, I understand your concern. Your affection for Spock, the fact that your nephew is the last survivor of your brother's family.
KIRK: No, no, Bones. There's more than two lives at stake here. I cannot let it spread beyond this colony, even if it means destroying a million people down there.
TOS S1 "The Menagerie (Part 1)":
KIRK: (reading) For eyes of Starfleet Command only.
MENDEZ: Oh, I'm certifying I ordered you to read it. Know anything at all about this planet?
KIRK: What every ship Captain knows. General Order 7, no vessel under any condition, emergency or otherwise, is to visit Talos Four.
MENDEZ: And to do so is the only death penalty left on our books. Only Fleet Command knows why. Not even this file explains that. (unlocks the magnetic strip) But it does name the only Earth ship that ever visited the planet.
KIRK: The Enterprise, commanded by Captain Christopher Pike.
MENDEZ: With a half Vulcan science officer named Spock.
NECHAYEV: Captain, I've read the report that you submitted to Admiral Brooks last year regarding the Borg you called Hugh, and I've been trying to figure out why you let him go.
PICARD: I thought that I had made that clear.
NECHAYEV: As I understand, it you found a single Borg at a crash site, brought it aboard the Enterprise, studied it, analysed it, and eventually found a way to send it back to the Borg with a programme that would have destroyed the entire collective once and for all. But instead, you nursed the Borg back to health, treated it like a guest, gave it a name, and then sent it home. Why?
PICARD: When Hugh was separated from the Borg collective he began to grow and to evolve into something other than an automaton. He became a person. When that happened, I felt I had no choice but to respect his rights as an individual.
NECHAYEV: Of course you had a choice. You could've taken the opportunity to rid the Federation of a mortal enemy, one that has killed tens of thousands of innocent people, and which may kill even more.
PICARD: No one is more aware of the danger than I am. But I am also bound by my oath and my conscience to uphold certain principles. And I will not sacrifice them in order to
NECHAYEV: Your priority is to safeguard the lives of Federation citizens, not to wrestle with your conscience. Now I want to make it clear that if you have a similar opportunity in the future, an opportunity to destroy the Borg, you are under orders to take advantage of it. Is that understood?
PICARD: Yes, sir.
So yeah, please spare me the "The Federation is evil, and has never been shown in Star Trek to take desperate measures to protect itself before STP..." bit. The Federation and Star Fleet have often been shown from the VERY BEGINNING of this 50+ year franchise that they have no issues taking drastic steps on occasion to safe guard themselves and their citizens from what they see as a major threat.
None of those situations are similar to the Picard situation though. In every one of those we understand the actual threat, will understand by the end of the episode, or the implication that warrants such drastic action (even if we can argue whether it is the right action to take, we still know why.) The dire synth threat has never been demonstrated in Picard, nor the threat of two apparently innocent people.
We know the Romulans were actually behind the Mars attack, which means so far Synths have been harmless until someone hacks them or whatever.
Maybe that revelation that explains why it was important to kill the pair has yet to come, but for right now all we see is Starfleet ordering the murder of innocents for no reason whatsoever, and threatening to destroy the entire ship like some Soviet commissar if the captain disobeys orders.
Star Trek Picard is not showing 'corruption' it is doing straight out assassination of the Federation.
It is incredible a Federation Captain would murder unarmed passengers on their ship.
It is incredible the Federation Captain did so because he was ORDERED to do so.
It is beyond incredible the Federation Captain legitimately thought Starfleet would destroy an entire ship for not obeying this order.
We have seen Starfleet training, we have seen how Starfleet officers are trained to react under fire and we have even seen how they react when forced to engage each other.
From all that evidence: It is implausible to the point of absurdity this situation occured. The only way it works is if some fantastic revisionist history or straight out narrative abuse is pulled.
The same kind of revisionism and abuse ST:P has already engaged in by making everything disgusting, grungy, swearing and dark.
We had a brutal torture scene
We have had multiple vivid mass execution scenes
We have had multiple graphic depictions of suicide
We have had excessive amounts of brutal and graphic murder
DS9 is often stated as being 'dark' - You can be dark and edgy without having to resort to the methods ST:P is doing.
The bottom line is this: ST:P is being narratively and cinematically directed by children that seem to have no class or actual ability to do anything but do cheap shock tactics. As a result, they have to fill the screen with excessive amounts of violence to make the villians actually appear villians rather than be subtle.
DS9 did not need to depict the Cardassians TRIBBLE or mass murdering Bajorans for the message of them being bad to get through.
You might want to actually WATCH Star Trek once in a while:
ANAN: Don't you understand, Captain? We have done away with all that. Now you are threatening to bring it down on us again. Are those five hundred people of yours more important than the hundreds of millions of innocent people on Eminiar and Vendikar? What kind of monster are you?
KIRK: I'm a barbarian. You said it yourself.
ANAN: I had hoped I'd spoken only figuratively.
KIRK: Oh, no. You were quite accurate. I plan to prove it to you.
ANAN: Open a channel to the Enterprise. You give me no choice, Captain. We are not bandits, but you force us to act as bandits.
SCOTT [OC]: This is the USS Enterprise.
KIRK: Scotty, General Order Twenty Four. Two hours! In two hours!
ANAN: Enterprise, this is Anan Seven, First Councilman of the High Council of Eminiar.
[Bridge]
ANAN [OC]: We hold your Captain, his party, your Ambassador and his party prisoners.
[Council Room]
ANAN: Unless you immediately start transportation of all personnel aboard your ship to the surface, the hostages will be killed. You have thirty minutes. I mean it, Captain.
KIRK: All that it means is that I won't be around for the destruction. You heard me give General Order Twenty Four. That means in two hours the Enterprise will destroy Eminiar Seven.
...
[Bridge]
SCOTT: Open a channel, Lieutenant. This is the commander of the USS Enterprise.
[Council Room]
SCOTT [OC]: All cities and installations on Eminiar Seven have been located, identified, and fed into our fire-control system. In one hour and forty five minutes
[Bridge]
SCOTT: The entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed.
[Council Room]
SCOTT: You have that long to surrender your hostages.
MCCOY: I'm sorry, Captain. I've tried everything I can. Variant radiation, intense heat, even as great as nine thousand degrees.
KIRK: Then you're wasting your time. There has to be something that'll kill the creature without destroying the human host.
MCCOY: Which happens to be my point. The thing won't die, even at temperatures and radiation which would burn Spock and your nephew to ashes.
KIRK: I can't accept that, Bones. We've got fourteen science labs aboard this ship. The finest equipment and computers in the galaxy.
MCCOY: Captain, I understand your concern. Your affection for Spock, the fact that your nephew is the last survivor of your brother's family.
KIRK: No, no, Bones. There's more than two lives at stake here. I cannot let it spread beyond this colony, even if it means destroying a million people down there.
TOS S1 "The Menagerie (Part 1)":
KIRK: (reading) For eyes of Starfleet Command only.
MENDEZ: Oh, I'm certifying I ordered you to read it. Know anything at all about this planet?
KIRK: What every ship Captain knows. General Order 7, no vessel under any condition, emergency or otherwise, is to visit Talos Four.
MENDEZ: And to do so is the only death penalty left on our books. Only Fleet Command knows why. Not even this file explains that. (unlocks the magnetic strip) But it does name the only Earth ship that ever visited the planet.
KIRK: The Enterprise, commanded by Captain Christopher Pike.
MENDEZ: With a half Vulcan science officer named Spock.
NECHAYEV: Captain, I've read the report that you submitted to Admiral Brooks last year regarding the Borg you called Hugh, and I've been trying to figure out why you let him go.
PICARD: I thought that I had made that clear.
NECHAYEV: As I understand, it you found a single Borg at a crash site, brought it aboard the Enterprise, studied it, analysed it, and eventually found a way to send it back to the Borg with a programme that would have destroyed the entire collective once and for all. But instead, you nursed the Borg back to health, treated it like a guest, gave it a name, and then sent it home. Why?
PICARD: When Hugh was separated from the Borg collective he began to grow and to evolve into something other than an automaton. He became a person. When that happened, I felt I had no choice but to respect his rights as an individual.
NECHAYEV: Of course you had a choice. You could've taken the opportunity to rid the Federation of a mortal enemy, one that has killed tens of thousands of innocent people, and which may kill even more.
PICARD: No one is more aware of the danger than I am. But I am also bound by my oath and my conscience to uphold certain principles. And I will not sacrifice them in order to
NECHAYEV: Your priority is to safeguard the lives of Federation citizens, not to wrestle with your conscience. Now I want to make it clear that if you have a similar opportunity in the future, an opportunity to destroy the Borg, you are under orders to take advantage of it. Is that understood?
PICARD: Yes, sir.
So yeah, please spare me the "The Federation is evil, and has never been shown in Star Trek to take desperate measures to protect itself before STP..." bit. The Federation and Star Fleet have often been shown from the VERY BEGINNING of this 50+ year franchise that they have no issues taking drastic steps on occasion to safe guard themselves and their citizens from what they see as a major threat.
None of those situations are similar to the Picard situation though. In every one of those we understand the actual threat, or implication that warrants such drastic action (even if we can argue whether it is the right action to take, we still know why.) The dire synth threat has never been demonstrated in Picard, nor the threat of two apparently innocent people.
We know the Romulans were actually behind the Mars attack, which means so far Synths have been harmless until someone hacks them or whatever.
Maybe that revelation that explains why it was important to kill the pair has yet to come, but for right now all we see is Starfleet ordering the murder of innocents for no reason whatsoever, and threatening to destroy the entire ship like some Soviet commissar if the captain disobeys orders.
The point is - we DON'T know how the order the Rios Captain was given. If Commodore Oh frames it similar to a threat like say the Talosians where seen in TOS it perfectly believable that Captain would carry out the order. Rios feels that the reason said Captain committed suicide was due to Rios giving him a hard time about it - but the point is - said Captain was given an order by someone in his chain of command who presented it AS a threat they (the Commodore and Star Fleet) knew about.
And BTW - no, Star Fleet DOESN'T know the Romulans were behind the attack; it's something Raffi suspected, and made a issue about it with Star Fleet Command (or at least that's the way in comes across when her son talks about it; and even Picard knew her suspicions and dismissed them).
But the point of my reply was: Nothing shown in STP was something Star Fleet hasn't legitimately engaged in before; and there's no reason to think that the Captain didn't question it, but his questions were either answered or (again based on previous Federation precedents) he followed orders because he trusted in his chain of command.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Also, there is still the possibility Oh arranged the whole situation with the alien ambassadors because they may have something that would have helped uncover the conspiracy or the synthetic life "issue". Or simply to tarnish the Federation's reputation even more.
So, she brainwashed the captain, sent him for that whole purpose while using the "I will destroy your ship" as either a mental trigger to make him carry the order or to give a somewhat valid reason so the crew won't get too suspicious. Or both. Then, she either releases her hold on his mind or the guilt proves too much for him so he manages to overcome his brainwashing just enough to kill himself, like Captain Terell did in WoK.
There is also the fact the ship and its crew were pretty much unperson-ed as opposed to tried or blown up.
My additional theory was that the captain was supposed to survive and the ship to be destroyed in "self-defense" anyway with the excuse of the crew going rogue and killing the ambassadors due to something, but the Captain's suicide derailed Oh's plan enough. After all if the murderer kills himself, why should the rest of the crew be punished to the point of destruction without raising considerable suspicion. So she had no choice but to use the more clumsy but less suspicious "this event never happened" approach. Plus, it still makes Starfleet look bad, so it's still a win for her.
We know the Romulans were actually behind the Mars attack, which means so far Synths have been harmless until someone hacks them or whatever.
Yes we know this. The Federation does not. Sure Raffi was suspecting something from day one, but she had no evidance, the idea of the Romulans deliberatly TRIBBLE themselves was deemed by everyone as as absurd in fact her persuit of this idea destroyed her career (we can proably conclude that Oh made sure that Raffi, and anyone else who made these claims would be dismissed and happily ruined their careers when possiable)
keep in mind that this isn't the first time androids went rogue eaither, Lore resulted in colonies being destroyed IIRC. and even Data on occasion would prove to be a problem, (didn't he hijack the enterprise once?)
Star Trek Picard is not showing 'corruption' it is doing straight out assassination of the Federation.
It is incredible a Federation Captain would murder unarmed passengers on their ship.
It is incredible the Federation Captain did so because he was ORDERED to do so.
It is beyond incredible the Federation Captain legitimately thought Starfleet would destroy an entire ship for not obeying this order.
We have seen Starfleet training, we have seen how Starfleet officers are trained to react under fire and we have even seen how they react when forced to engage each other.
From all that evidence: It is implausible to the point of absurdity this situation occured. The only way it works is if some fantastic revisionist history or straight out narrative abuse is pulled.
The same kind of revisionism and abuse ST:P has already engaged in by making everything disgusting, grungy, swearing and dark.
We had a brutal torture scene
We have had multiple vivid mass execution scenes
We have had multiple graphic depictions of suicide
We have had excessive amounts of brutal and graphic murder
DS9 is often stated as being 'dark' - You can be dark and edgy without having to resort to the methods ST:P is doing.
The bottom line is this: ST:P is being narratively and cinematically directed by children that seem to have no class or actual ability to do anything but do cheap shock tactics. As a result, they have to fill the screen with excessive amounts of violence to make the villians actually appear villians rather than be subtle.
DS9 did not need to depict the Cardassians TRIBBLE or mass murdering Bajorans for the message of them being bad to get through.
You might want to actually WATCH Star Trek once in a while:
ANAN: Don't you understand, Captain? We have done away with all that. Now you are threatening to bring it down on us again. Are those five hundred people of yours more important than the hundreds of millions of innocent people on Eminiar and Vendikar? What kind of monster are you?
KIRK: I'm a barbarian. You said it yourself.
ANAN: I had hoped I'd spoken only figuratively.
KIRK: Oh, no. You were quite accurate. I plan to prove it to you.
ANAN: Open a channel to the Enterprise. You give me no choice, Captain. We are not bandits, but you force us to act as bandits.
SCOTT [OC]: This is the USS Enterprise.
KIRK: Scotty, General Order Twenty Four. Two hours! In two hours!
ANAN: Enterprise, this is Anan Seven, First Councilman of the High Council of Eminiar.
[Bridge]
ANAN [OC]: We hold your Captain, his party, your Ambassador and his party prisoners.
[Council Room]
ANAN: Unless you immediately start transportation of all personnel aboard your ship to the surface, the hostages will be killed. You have thirty minutes. I mean it, Captain.
KIRK: All that it means is that I won't be around for the destruction. You heard me give General Order Twenty Four. That means in two hours the Enterprise will destroy Eminiar Seven.
...
[Bridge]
SCOTT: Open a channel, Lieutenant. This is the commander of the USS Enterprise.
[Council Room]
SCOTT [OC]: All cities and installations on Eminiar Seven have been located, identified, and fed into our fire-control system. In one hour and forty five minutes
[Bridge]
SCOTT: The entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed.
[Council Room]
SCOTT: You have that long to surrender your hostages.
MCCOY: I'm sorry, Captain. I've tried everything I can. Variant radiation, intense heat, even as great as nine thousand degrees.
KIRK: Then you're wasting your time. There has to be something that'll kill the creature without destroying the human host.
MCCOY: Which happens to be my point. The thing won't die, even at temperatures and radiation which would burn Spock and your nephew to ashes.
KIRK: I can't accept that, Bones. We've got fourteen science labs aboard this ship. The finest equipment and computers in the galaxy.
MCCOY: Captain, I understand your concern. Your affection for Spock, the fact that your nephew is the last survivor of your brother's family.
KIRK: No, no, Bones. There's more than two lives at stake here. I cannot let it spread beyond this colony, even if it means destroying a million people down there.
TOS S1 "The Menagerie (Part 1)":
KIRK: (reading) For eyes of Starfleet Command only.
MENDEZ: Oh, I'm certifying I ordered you to read it. Know anything at all about this planet?
KIRK: What every ship Captain knows. General Order 7, no vessel under any condition, emergency or otherwise, is to visit Talos Four.
MENDEZ: And to do so is the only death penalty left on our books. Only Fleet Command knows why. Not even this file explains that. (unlocks the magnetic strip) But it does name the only Earth ship that ever visited the planet.
KIRK: The Enterprise, commanded by Captain Christopher Pike.
MENDEZ: With a half Vulcan science officer named Spock.
NECHAYEV: Captain, I've read the report that you submitted to Admiral Brooks last year regarding the Borg you called Hugh, and I've been trying to figure out why you let him go.
PICARD: I thought that I had made that clear.
NECHAYEV: As I understand, it you found a single Borg at a crash site, brought it aboard the Enterprise, studied it, analysed it, and eventually found a way to send it back to the Borg with a programme that would have destroyed the entire collective once and for all. But instead, you nursed the Borg back to health, treated it like a guest, gave it a name, and then sent it home. Why?
PICARD: When Hugh was separated from the Borg collective he began to grow and to evolve into something other than an automaton. He became a person. When that happened, I felt I had no choice but to respect his rights as an individual.
NECHAYEV: Of course you had a choice. You could've taken the opportunity to rid the Federation of a mortal enemy, one that has killed tens of thousands of innocent people, and which may kill even more.
PICARD: No one is more aware of the danger than I am. But I am also bound by my oath and my conscience to uphold certain principles. And I will not sacrifice them in order to
NECHAYEV: Your priority is to safeguard the lives of Federation citizens, not to wrestle with your conscience. Now I want to make it clear that if you have a similar opportunity in the future, an opportunity to destroy the Borg, you are under orders to take advantage of it. Is that understood?
PICARD: Yes, sir.
So yeah, please spare me the "The Federation is evil, and has never been shown in Star Trek to take desperate measures to protect itself before STP..." bit. The Federation and Star Fleet have often been shown from the VERY BEGINNING of this 50+ year franchise that they have no issues taking drastic steps on occasion to safe guard themselves and their citizens from what they see as a major threat.
The context is different between what PIC is doing and what the other shows did though it is not always obvious.
"A Taste of Armageddon" was a comment on nuclear brinkmanship for instance, and it is technically a wartime action with Enterprise as an unwilling but official combatant. The idea was to use the escalation as a sort of Mexican standoff to stall for time to come up with a way to get Eminiar and Vendikar out of their rut and back to the negotiating table, ultimately saving billions of lives.
"Operation: Annihilate" is the classic doomsday plague quarantine situation. Every movie where there is a hellfire bomb, nuke, or other form of incineration waiting in the wings in case the heroes fail to solve the problem and stop the plague uses this. And while the people are innocent civilians, they are already dead/zombies/spare parts/whatever if the heroes fail, the mission at that point changes from trying to save the victims to keeping the tragedy from happening to others.
"The Menagerie (Part 1)" has always been a bit of a stretch, but it too boils down to the quarantine scenario. Realistically that is the way the Federation probably unofficially spins General Order 7, as some sort of unstoppable contagion instead of the possibility of absolute corruption that it really is. It is the closest to a panic reaction the Federation ever displays in TOS.
A sidenote though is that it does not leave any room at all for the clumsy Discovery coverup since it is stated to be silence or death and the ONLY death penalty on the books is General Order 7. It is another example of lack of research on the part of the DSC writers, and while the amount of lore across all of the Treks is huge they should at minimum be familiar with the closest series on the timeline, especially with such a narrow gap in time between them.
"Descent (Part 1)" is essentially a cold war maneuver against a known hostile military force, not civilians (essentially the whole collective is one big war machine). And even then it is iffy enough to trigger Picard into a sort of passive resistance mode until they come up with another idea.
In fact "Whom Gods Destroy" (TOS s3e16) contains the following dialog that points out the Federation does not do massacres lightly:
SPOCK: How could you, a Starship fleet Captain, believe that a Federation crew would blindly obey your order to destroy the entire Antos race, a people famous for their benevolence and peaceful pursuits?
GARTH: That was my only miscalculation. I had changed. I had risen above this decadent weakness which still has you in its command, by the way, Captain. My crew had not. I couldn't sway them, but my new crew, the men in this room, will obey my orders without question. Gentlemen, you have eyes but you cannot see. Galaxies surround us, limitless vistas. And yet the Federation would have us grub away like some ants on some somewhat larger than usual anthill. But I am not an insect. I am master of the universe, and I must claim my domain.
KIRK: I agree there was a time when war was necessary, and you were our greatest warrior. I studied your victory at Axanar when I was a cadet. In fact it's still required reading at the Academy.
GARTH: As well it should be.
KIRK: Very well. But my first visit to Axanar was as a new fledged cadet on a peace mission.
And even executions are not something that a crew will go along with (from "Turnabout Intruder" (TOS s3e24)):
SULU: The captain really must be going mad if he thinks he can get away with an execution.
CHEKOV: Captain Kirk wouldn't order an execution even if he were going mad. That cannot be the captain.
SULU: What difference does it make who he is? Are we going to allow an execution to take place?
CHEKOV: If security backs him up, how will we fight him?
SULU: I'll fight them every way and any way I can.
(Kirk enters)
KIRK: Lieutenant Lysa, inform all sectors of my decision. Have each section send a representative to the place of execution on the hangar deck. Mister Chekov, how far to the Benecia Colony?
CHEKOV: Coming within scanning range.
KIRK: Plot co-ordinates for orbit. Mister Sulu, lock into co-ordinates as soon as orbit is accomplished. Interment will take place on Benecia.
(Chekov and Sulu remove their hands from their controls)
KIRK: You have received your orders! You will obey my orders. You'll be charged with mutiny! You will obey my orders or, or,
(He starts convulsing, and Janice is doing the same in the brig)
PIC (and DSC) are sloppily written when it comes to edge cases like that, though to be fair that is steadily becoming the standard for shows today as they shift focus away from scripting and to the eye candy and SFX gags instead.
We know the Romulans were actually behind the Mars attack, which means so far Synths have been harmless until someone hacks them or whatever.
Yes we know this. The Federation does not. Sure Raffi was suspecting something from day one, but she had no evidance, the idea of the Romulans deliberatly TRIBBLE themselves was deemed by everyone as as absurd in fact her persuit of this idea destroyed her career (we can proably conclude that Oh made sure that Raffi, and anyone else who made these claims would be dismissed and happily ruined their careers when possiable)
keep in mind that this isn't the first time androids went rogue eaither, Lore resulted in colonies being destroyed IIRC. and even Data on occasion would prove to be a problem, (didn't he hijack the enterprise once?)
The Federation doesn't care why the Synth rebelled. Just ban all synths and sweep it under the rug instead of trying to figure out whether the synths intentionally rebelled or were compromised. Whoever is in charge of the Federation and Starfleet are extremely incompetent or corrupt for not trying to figure out why the synths rebelled.
We know the Romulans were actually behind the Mars attack, which means so far Synths have been harmless until someone hacks them or whatever.
Yes we know this. The Federation does not. Sure Raffi was suspecting something from day one, but she had no evidance, the idea of the Romulans deliberatly TRIBBLE themselves was deemed by everyone as as absurd in fact her persuit of this idea destroyed her career (we can proably conclude that Oh made sure that Raffi, and anyone else who made these claims would be dismissed and happily ruined their careers when possiable)
keep in mind that this isn't the first time androids went rogue eaither, Lore resulted in colonies being destroyed IIRC. and even Data on occasion would prove to be a problem, (didn't he hijack the enterprise once?)
The Federation doesn't care why the Synth rebelled. Just ban all synths and sweep it under the rug instead of trying to figure out whether the synths intentionally rebelled or were compromised. Whoever is in charge of the Federation and Starfleet are extremely incompetent or corrupt for not trying to figure out why the synths rebelled.
I'm sure the federation did an offical investigation, but as head of starfleet security Oh would have been in charge of the investigation, and would have likely ensured the findings enchouraged a research ban
Star Trek Picard is not showing 'corruption' it is doing straight out assassination of the Federation.
It is incredible a Federation Captain would murder unarmed passengers on their ship.
It is incredible the Federation Captain did so because he was ORDERED to do so.
It is beyond incredible the Federation Captain legitimately thought Starfleet would destroy an entire ship for not obeying this order.
We have seen Starfleet training, we have seen how Starfleet officers are trained to react under fire and we have even seen how they react when forced to engage each other.
From all that evidence: It is implausible to the point of absurdity this situation occured. The only way it works is if some fantastic revisionist history or straight out narrative abuse is pulled.
The same kind of revisionism and abuse ST:P has already engaged in by making everything disgusting, grungy, swearing and dark.
We had a brutal torture scene
We have had multiple vivid mass execution scenes
We have had multiple graphic depictions of suicide
We have had excessive amounts of brutal and graphic murder
DS9 is often stated as being 'dark' - You can be dark and edgy without having to resort to the methods ST:P is doing.
The bottom line is this: ST:P is being narratively and cinematically directed by children that seem to have no class or actual ability to do anything but do cheap shock tactics. As a result, they have to fill the screen with excessive amounts of violence to make the villians actually appear villians rather than be subtle.
DS9 did not need to depict the Cardassians TRIBBLE or mass murdering Bajorans for the message of them being bad to get through.
You might want to actually WATCH Star Trek once in a while:
ANAN: Don't you understand, Captain? We have done away with all that. Now you are threatening to bring it down on us again. Are those five hundred people of yours more important than the hundreds of millions of innocent people on Eminiar and Vendikar? What kind of monster are you?
KIRK: I'm a barbarian. You said it yourself.
ANAN: I had hoped I'd spoken only figuratively.
KIRK: Oh, no. You were quite accurate. I plan to prove it to you.
ANAN: Open a channel to the Enterprise. You give me no choice, Captain. We are not bandits, but you force us to act as bandits.
SCOTT [OC]: This is the USS Enterprise.
KIRK: Scotty, General Order Twenty Four. Two hours! In two hours!
ANAN: Enterprise, this is Anan Seven, First Councilman of the High Council of Eminiar.
[Bridge]
ANAN [OC]: We hold your Captain, his party, your Ambassador and his party prisoners.
[Council Room]
ANAN: Unless you immediately start transportation of all personnel aboard your ship to the surface, the hostages will be killed. You have thirty minutes. I mean it, Captain.
KIRK: All that it means is that I won't be around for the destruction. You heard me give General Order Twenty Four. That means in two hours the Enterprise will destroy Eminiar Seven.
...
[Bridge]
SCOTT: Open a channel, Lieutenant. This is the commander of the USS Enterprise.
[Council Room]
SCOTT [OC]: All cities and installations on Eminiar Seven have been located, identified, and fed into our fire-control system. In one hour and forty five minutes
[Bridge]
SCOTT: The entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed.
[Council Room]
SCOTT: You have that long to surrender your hostages.
MCCOY: I'm sorry, Captain. I've tried everything I can. Variant radiation, intense heat, even as great as nine thousand degrees.
KIRK: Then you're wasting your time. There has to be something that'll kill the creature without destroying the human host.
MCCOY: Which happens to be my point. The thing won't die, even at temperatures and radiation which would burn Spock and your nephew to ashes.
KIRK: I can't accept that, Bones. We've got fourteen science labs aboard this ship. The finest equipment and computers in the galaxy.
MCCOY: Captain, I understand your concern. Your affection for Spock, the fact that your nephew is the last survivor of your brother's family.
KIRK: No, no, Bones. There's more than two lives at stake here. I cannot let it spread beyond this colony, even if it means destroying a million people down there.
TOS S1 "The Menagerie (Part 1)":
KIRK: (reading) For eyes of Starfleet Command only.
MENDEZ: Oh, I'm certifying I ordered you to read it. Know anything at all about this planet?
KIRK: What every ship Captain knows. General Order 7, no vessel under any condition, emergency or otherwise, is to visit Talos Four.
MENDEZ: And to do so is the only death penalty left on our books. Only Fleet Command knows why. Not even this file explains that. (unlocks the magnetic strip) But it does name the only Earth ship that ever visited the planet.
KIRK: The Enterprise, commanded by Captain Christopher Pike.
MENDEZ: With a half Vulcan science officer named Spock.
NECHAYEV: Captain, I've read the report that you submitted to Admiral Brooks last year regarding the Borg you called Hugh, and I've been trying to figure out why you let him go.
PICARD: I thought that I had made that clear.
NECHAYEV: As I understand, it you found a single Borg at a crash site, brought it aboard the Enterprise, studied it, analysed it, and eventually found a way to send it back to the Borg with a programme that would have destroyed the entire collective once and for all. But instead, you nursed the Borg back to health, treated it like a guest, gave it a name, and then sent it home. Why?
PICARD: When Hugh was separated from the Borg collective he began to grow and to evolve into something other than an automaton. He became a person. When that happened, I felt I had no choice but to respect his rights as an individual.
NECHAYEV: Of course you had a choice. You could've taken the opportunity to rid the Federation of a mortal enemy, one that has killed tens of thousands of innocent people, and which may kill even more.
PICARD: No one is more aware of the danger than I am. But I am also bound by my oath and my conscience to uphold certain principles. And I will not sacrifice them in order to
NECHAYEV: Your priority is to safeguard the lives of Federation citizens, not to wrestle with your conscience. Now I want to make it clear that if you have a similar opportunity in the future, an opportunity to destroy the Borg, you are under orders to take advantage of it. Is that understood?
PICARD: Yes, sir.
So yeah, please spare me the "The Federation is evil, and has never been shown in Star Trek to take desperate measures to protect itself before STP..." bit. The Federation and Star Fleet have often been shown from the VERY BEGINNING of this 50+ year franchise that they have no issues taking drastic steps on occasion to safe guard themselves and their citizens from what they see as a major threat.
None of those situations are similar to the Picard situation though. In every one of those we understand the actual threat, or implication that warrants such drastic action (even if we can argue whether it is the right action to take, we still know why.) The dire synth threat has never been demonstrated in Picard, nor the threat of two apparently innocent people.
We know the Romulans were actually behind the Mars attack, which means so far Synths have been harmless until someone hacks them or whatever.
Maybe that revelation that explains why it was important to kill the pair has yet to come, but for right now all we see is Starfleet ordering the murder of innocents for no reason whatsoever, and threatening to destroy the entire ship like some Soviet commissar if the captain disobeys orders.
The point is - we DON'T know how the order the Rios Captain was given. If Commodore Oh frames it similar to a threat like say the Talosians where seen in TOS it perfectly believable that Captain would carry out the order. Rios feels that the reason said Captain committed suicide was due to Rios giving him a hard time about it - but the point is - said Captain was given an order by someone in his chain of command who presented it AS a threat they (the Commodore and Star Fleet) knew about.
And BTW - no, Star Fleet DOESN'T know the Romulans were behind the attack; it's something Raffi suspected, and made a issue about it with Star Fleet Command (or at least that's the way in comes across when her son talks about it; and even Picard knew her suspicions and dismissed them).
But the point of my reply was: Nothing shown in STP was something Star Fleet hasn't legitimately engaged in before; and there's no reason to think that the Captain didn't question it, but his questions were either answered or (again based on previous Federation precedents) he followed orders because he trusted in his chain of command.
Yes but it is every officer's duty to question their orders if they think something is fishy about them. Orders instructing a captain to murder a woman and a child for no apparent reason, who are no apparent threat should have every Starfleet captain's spidey sense going off.
By contrasts, your examples show us something different. Scotty knows his captain and others are being held hostage in one example. And Kirk has to contend with the obvious threat of dangerous parasites in the other example. Picard knew how dangerous the Borg were and instead treated them like any other civilization that just needed a nudge to change rather than the existential threat they were, and its fair to say he regrets that decision when First Contact comes around.
Yes, Starfleet at large doesn't know the Romulans did it. They don't know anyone did it. They know only that some androids went haywire and now they are banned. They don't have a reason to murder other Non-Federation androids if they even knew they were androids.
We know the Romulans were actually behind the Mars attack, which means so far Synths have been harmless until someone hacks them or whatever.
Yes we know this. The Federation does not. Sure Raffi was suspecting something from day one, but she had no evidance, the idea of the Romulans deliberatly TRIBBLE themselves was deemed by everyone as as absurd in fact her persuit of this idea destroyed her career (we can proably conclude that Oh made sure that Raffi, and anyone else who made these claims would be dismissed and happily ruined their careers when possiable)
keep in mind that this isn't the first time androids went rogue eaither, Lore resulted in colonies being destroyed IIRC. and even Data on occasion would prove to be a problem, (didn't he hijack the enterprise once?)
The Federation doesn't care why the Synth rebelled. Just ban all synths and sweep it under the rug instead of trying to figure out whether the synths intentionally rebelled or were compromised. Whoever is in charge of the Federation and Starfleet are extremely incompetent or corrupt for not trying to figure out why the synths rebelled.
No one does an investigation or it gets squashed/kept secret, but no one in the entire Federation thinks that's BS and questions it, pushes for a real investigation? That is obvious corruption there.
We know the Romulans were actually behind the Mars attack, which means so far Synths have been harmless until someone hacks them or whatever.
Yes we know this. The Federation does not. Sure Raffi was suspecting something from day one, but she had no evidance, the idea of the Romulans deliberatly TRIBBLE themselves was deemed by everyone as as absurd in fact her persuit of this idea destroyed her career (we can proably conclude that Oh made sure that Raffi, and anyone else who made these claims would be dismissed and happily ruined their careers when possiable)
keep in mind that this isn't the first time androids went rogue eaither, Lore resulted in colonies being destroyed IIRC. and even Data on occasion would prove to be a problem, (didn't he hijack the enterprise once?)
No, this is the first time non-sentient androids went rogue. Lore and Data were deliberately created to be capable of independent thought, but everything we saw of the Mars androids is that they are just advanced toasters, which is a serious problem with this plot.
Yes but it is every officer's duty to question their orders if they think something is fishy about them. Orders instructing a captain to murder a woman and a child for no apparent reason, who are no apparent threat should have every Starfleet captain's spidey sense going off.
By contrasts, your examples show us something different. Scotty knows his captain and others are being held hostage in one example. And Kirk has to contend with the obvious threat of dangerous parasites in the other example. Picard knew how dangerous the Borg were and instead treated them like any other civilization that just needed a nudge to change rather than the existential threat they were, and its fair to say he regrets that decision when First Contact comes around.
Yes, Starfleet at large doesn't know the Romulans did it. They don't know anyone did it. They know only that some androids went haywire and now they are banned. They don't have a reason to murder other Non-Federation androids if they even knew they were androids.
If I'm not mistaken, the Captain DID question it and was told if he disobeyed, the ship would be destroyed with all hands. <-- And that's EXEACTLY like the Talos IV situation from TOS S1 - "The Menagerie" that I quoted:
KIRK: What every ship Captain knows. General Order 7, no vessel under any condition, emergency or otherwise, is to visit Talos Four.
MENDEZ: And to do so is the only death penalty left on our books. Only Fleet Command knows why. Not even this file explains that. (unlocks the magnetic strip) But it does name the only Earth ship that ever visited the planet.
So, yes, the order was given, Captain Vandermir questioned why, and was told if he didn't carry it out his entire ship and crew along withe the two 'Ambassadors' would be destroyed. So, yeah, sorry, Star Fleet in STP isn't any different back then than it is now in STP - there are orders given and the reason is: "Because we believe it's something so dangerous, we can't allow further contact, or word of said contact to get out."
And yes, obviously it weighed heavily enough on Captain Vandermir that, in the end (and Rios feels maybe he too did something by pressing the Captain on the fact Vandermir carried out the directive); the Captain committed suicide. That said, I believe there are many Captains who wouldn't have a problem at all, and would carry out the order. Examples include TNG era Captain Edward Jellico; and Admiral Pressman (if a situation occurred back when he was a Captain - and hell, Ensign Riker may still have gone along with it at the time too. ).
But in the end, Star Fleet as depicted in STP is really no different than Star Fleet as depicted in TOS or during the TNG era. Directives like this have always existed, been questioned, and ultimately been carried out, one way or another.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
What if the message wasn’t met for life forms but for synthetic life and this is why the Romulans go crazy after viewing it because it wasn’t meant for their brains?
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
We know the Romulans were actually behind the Mars attack, which means so far Synths have been harmless until someone hacks them or whatever.
Yes we know this. The Federation does not. Sure Raffi was suspecting something from day one, but she had no evidance, the idea of the Romulans deliberatly TRIBBLE themselves was deemed by everyone as as absurd in fact her persuit of this idea destroyed her career (we can proably conclude that Oh made sure that Raffi, and anyone else who made these claims would be dismissed and happily ruined their careers when possiable)
keep in mind that this isn't the first time androids went rogue eaither, Lore resulted in colonies being destroyed IIRC. and even Data on occasion would prove to be a problem, (didn't he hijack the enterprise once?)
The Federation doesn't care why the Synth rebelled. Just ban all synths and sweep it under the rug instead of trying to figure out whether the synths intentionally rebelled or were compromised. Whoever is in charge of the Federation and Starfleet are extremely incompetent or corrupt for not trying to figure out why the synths rebelled.
I'm sure the federation did an offical investigation, but as head of starfleet security Oh would have been in charge of the investigation, and would have likely ensured the findings enchouraged a research ban
I feel the need to point out this is the same Federation that banned Protomatter, Omega, and suppressed knowledge of parallel universes(in general not just Mirror). It's also the same Federation that buried knowledge of the phasing cloak.
Omega's a big deal actually. A Federation research station was destroyed in an Omega blast and the Federation lied to the ENTIRE GALAXY about why that region of space is messed up.
What if the message wasn’t met for life forms but for synthetic life and this is why the Romulans go crazy after viewing it because it wasn’t meant for their brains?
Or maybe some other non humanoid? We know some races have very different thought patterns than your average humanoid.
Yes but it is every officer's duty to question their orders if they think something is fishy about them. Orders instructing a captain to murder a woman and a child for no apparent reason, who are no apparent threat should have every Starfleet captain's spidey sense going off.
By contrasts, your examples show us something different. Scotty knows his captain and others are being held hostage in one example. And Kirk has to contend with the obvious threat of dangerous parasites in the other example. Picard knew how dangerous the Borg were and instead treated them like any other civilization that just needed a nudge to change rather than the existential threat they were, and its fair to say he regrets that decision when First Contact comes around.
Yes, Starfleet at large doesn't know the Romulans did it. They don't know anyone did it. They know only that some androids went haywire and now they are banned. They don't have a reason to murder other Non-Federation androids if they even knew they were androids.
If I'm not mistaken, the Captain DID question it and was told if he disobeyed, the ship would be destroyed with all hands. <-- And that's EXEACTLY like the Talos IV situation from TOS S1 - "The Menagerie" that I quoted:
KIRK: What every ship Captain knows. General Order 7, no vessel under any condition, emergency or otherwise, is to visit Talos Four.
MENDEZ: And to do so is the only death penalty left on our books. Only Fleet Command knows why. Not even this file explains that. (unlocks the magnetic strip) But it does name the only Earth ship that ever visited the planet.
So, yes, the order was given, Captain Vandermir questioned why, and was told if he didn't carry it out his entire ship and crew along withe the two 'Ambassadors' would be destroyed. So, yeah, sorry, Star Fleet in STP isn't any different back then than it is now in STP - there are orders given and the reason is: "Because we believe it's something so dangerous, we can't allow further contact, or word of said contact to get out."
And yes, obviously it weighed heavily enough on Captain Vandermir that, in the end (and Rios feels maybe he too did something by pressing the Captain on the fact Vandermir carried out the directive); the Captain committed suicide. That said, I believe there are many Captains who wouldn't have a problem at all, and would carry out the order. Examples include TNG era Captain Edward Jellico; and Admiral Pressman (if a situation occurred back when he was a Captain - and hell, Ensign Riker may still have gone along with it at the time too. ).
But in the end, Star Fleet as depicted in STP is really no different than Star Fleet as depicted in TOS or during the TNG era. Directives like this have always existed, been questioned, and ultimately been carried out, one way or another.
I disagree that Talos 4 is remotely the same as murdering innocents. One is prohibition on taking an action vs. being demanded to take an action.
We also have zero accountability here, no satisfying outcome to the moral quandry, unlike say the Pegasus incident where court martials take place. The audience is aware of the problems with the Federation having that cloak, and Starfleet ultimately does the moral thing, and deals with bad apples like Pressman.
What if the message wasn’t met for life forms but for synthetic life and this is why the Romulans go crazy after viewing it because it wasn’t meant for their brains?
either you are a damn lucky guesser or you saw today's episode early, because that's exactly what they implied in act two
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
What if the message wasn’t met for life forms but for synthetic life and this is why the Romulans go crazy after viewing it because it wasn’t meant for their brains?
either you are a damn lucky guesser or you saw today's episode early, because that's exactly what they implied in act two
Actually that is just the most likely progression of the plot, they seem to be going right down the list of old sci-fi standards.
And here after the Romulans found that Prothean beacon I didn't think things could get more Mass Effect but here we are.
What a thrill ride this series has been, the finale of season 1 is sure to be a treat. It's been a rocky road of ups and downs but personally I feel this is the best Trek we've had since 2001. I do like ENT and DSC but they dont match the TNG, VOY and especially DS9 quality for me. PIC does.
It helps that I love all things Romulan so that final shot with Oh in her fabulous outfit that needs ti make it in game was just bliss for me.
> @shadowfang240 said: > (Quote) > > either you are a damn lucky guesser or you saw today's episode early, because that's exactly what they implied in act two
I smiled when I saw that. I better go play the numbers.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Comments
Lore actually has an answer to what can move stars after all.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Tkon_Empire
The Tkon Empire was a massive empire that existed over 600,000 years ago. The Empire had a population of trillions and was highly advanced technologically. The Tkon had the ability to move entire stars, using planets as outposts for defense. They employed guardians known as portals to defend these outposts and to act as gatekeepers for those seeking entry to the Empire.
I kinda thought there was something before them then decided to look it up thought it was iken empire but then went tken and then found it was Tkon. Given The Tkon have the power to move Stars lore wise and lore wise having that being part of their lore and Star moving pointed out in their lore. Logiacally it would be the Tkon's that placed the Eight Fold Stars.
Though just because the T'Kon was one race that could move stars doesn't have to mean that it was the only one. (In STO, the Iconians can do it with their Dyson Spheres!)
But it was always a bit odd to me that ancient space-faring civilizations could be eradicated by anything so completely that none of the presently active races was considered even a descendant of these civilizations. Of course, that might be more a story-telling conceit - space exploration is more exciting if you can also find the remnants of lost civilizations. Otherwise every exploration story is either a natural phenomena or an active alien species with which you can try to communicate and must negotiate further interaction.
There is other connections that support the T'kons from Memory Alpha.
Mudd's androids
A Class K planet was inhabited by thousands of advanced androids originally from the Andromeda Galaxy. Their makers had established outposts throughout their own galaxy, and had built only a handful of outposts in the Milky Way Galaxy; however, when the sun of their home star system went nova, most of their civilization was destroyed. The remaining makers died out over time, leaving only distant outposts of androids.
These androids had their first encounter with native life in the Milky Way when infamous criminal Harcourt Fenton "Harry" Mudd, having escaped from imminent execution on Deneb V on charges of fraud, fled known space and crash landed on their planet in 2268. Mudd was hardly an ideal model of Humanity, and the androids decided that Humans were a form of galactic pest that needed to be contained for their own protection (and the protection of the galaxy). These androids could have an operational lifespan of up to 500,000 years, and had access to advanced medical technology which could let them transplant humanoid brains into android bodies to grant them virtual immortality.
The Decline or extinction of the T'kon's could be the results of these Androids rising up against their own makers and given stars were arranged to warn Milky Way Civilizations could avoid making the same mistake they did. Tkon lore compared to Mudd Android lore. It not only fits but the evidence supports it.
The Tkon Empire was a massive empire that existed over 600,000 years ago. The Empire had a population of trillions and was highly advanced technologically. The Tkon had the ability to move entire stars, using planets as outposts for defense. They employed guardians known as portals to defend these outposts and to act as gatekeepers for those seeking entry to the Empire.
Romulan Star goes Supernova they have heard the message of a civilization who could move star's and likely their own went supernova as that civilization had the exact same thing happen to them. Its very interesting indeed.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
The 200,000 years number works perfectly for the Iconians, but for some reason there are two entirely different numbers floating around the various boards, 200,000 years and 200,000 centuries (did someone flub their lines so both were used in the episode?). The 200,000 century one would fit the T'kon in that they are the first civilization mentioned in Trek with the technology to move stars, though they were long dead by the more recent time.
It could indirectly involve both civilizations though, the eight star system could have been some T'kon proof of concept toy or whatever that the Iconians ran across later and used, or it could have been the homeworld of one of the Iconian's enemies or even a system blocked from the Iconian gateways by some quirk of the configuration (similar to how Stargates can be blocked or otherwise distorted by the target planet being covered by the system's sun (from the starting planet's point of view) in the series of the same name).
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
You might want to actually WATCH Star Trek once in a while:
TOS S1 - "A Taste of Armageddon":
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/23.htm
TOS S1 "Operation: Annihilate":
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/29.htm
TOS S1 "The Menagerie (Part 1)":
TNG: S6 "Descent (Part 1)":
http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/252.htm
So yeah, please spare me the "The Federation is evil, and has never been shown in Star Trek to take desperate measures to protect itself before STP..." bit. The Federation and Star Fleet have often been shown from the VERY BEGINNING of this 50+ year franchise that they have no issues taking drastic steps on occasion to safe guard themselves and their citizens from what they see as a major threat.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
None of those situations are similar to the Picard situation though. In every one of those we understand the actual threat, will understand by the end of the episode, or the implication that warrants such drastic action (even if we can argue whether it is the right action to take, we still know why.) The dire synth threat has never been demonstrated in Picard, nor the threat of two apparently innocent people.
We know the Romulans were actually behind the Mars attack, which means so far Synths have been harmless until someone hacks them or whatever.
Maybe that revelation that explains why it was important to kill the pair has yet to come, but for right now all we see is Starfleet ordering the murder of innocents for no reason whatsoever, and threatening to destroy the entire ship like some Soviet commissar if the captain disobeys orders.
The point is - we DON'T know how the order the Rios Captain was given. If Commodore Oh frames it similar to a threat like say the Talosians where seen in TOS it perfectly believable that Captain would carry out the order. Rios feels that the reason said Captain committed suicide was due to Rios giving him a hard time about it - but the point is - said Captain was given an order by someone in his chain of command who presented it AS a threat they (the Commodore and Star Fleet) knew about.
And BTW - no, Star Fleet DOESN'T know the Romulans were behind the attack; it's something Raffi suspected, and made a issue about it with Star Fleet Command (or at least that's the way in comes across when her son talks about it; and even Picard knew her suspicions and dismissed them).
But the point of my reply was: Nothing shown in STP was something Star Fleet hasn't legitimately engaged in before; and there's no reason to think that the Captain didn't question it, but his questions were either answered or (again based on previous Federation precedents) he followed orders because he trusted in his chain of command.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
So, she brainwashed the captain, sent him for that whole purpose while using the "I will destroy your ship" as either a mental trigger to make him carry the order or to give a somewhat valid reason so the crew won't get too suspicious. Or both. Then, she either releases her hold on his mind or the guilt proves too much for him so he manages to overcome his brainwashing just enough to kill himself, like Captain Terell did in WoK.
There is also the fact the ship and its crew were pretty much unperson-ed as opposed to tried or blown up.
My additional theory was that the captain was supposed to survive and the ship to be destroyed in "self-defense" anyway with the excuse of the crew going rogue and killing the ambassadors due to something, but the Captain's suicide derailed Oh's plan enough. After all if the murderer kills himself, why should the rest of the crew be punished to the point of destruction without raising considerable suspicion. So she had no choice but to use the more clumsy but less suspicious "this event never happened" approach. Plus, it still makes Starfleet look bad, so it's still a win for her.
Yes we know this. The Federation does not. Sure Raffi was suspecting something from day one, but she had no evidance, the idea of the Romulans deliberatly TRIBBLE themselves was deemed by everyone as as absurd in fact her persuit of this idea destroyed her career (we can proably conclude that Oh made sure that Raffi, and anyone else who made these claims would be dismissed and happily ruined their careers when possiable)
keep in mind that this isn't the first time androids went rogue eaither, Lore resulted in colonies being destroyed IIRC. and even Data on occasion would prove to be a problem, (didn't he hijack the enterprise once?)
The context is different between what PIC is doing and what the other shows did though it is not always obvious.
"A Taste of Armageddon" was a comment on nuclear brinkmanship for instance, and it is technically a wartime action with Enterprise as an unwilling but official combatant. The idea was to use the escalation as a sort of Mexican standoff to stall for time to come up with a way to get Eminiar and Vendikar out of their rut and back to the negotiating table, ultimately saving billions of lives.
"Operation: Annihilate" is the classic doomsday plague quarantine situation. Every movie where there is a hellfire bomb, nuke, or other form of incineration waiting in the wings in case the heroes fail to solve the problem and stop the plague uses this. And while the people are innocent civilians, they are already dead/zombies/spare parts/whatever if the heroes fail, the mission at that point changes from trying to save the victims to keeping the tragedy from happening to others.
"The Menagerie (Part 1)" has always been a bit of a stretch, but it too boils down to the quarantine scenario. Realistically that is the way the Federation probably unofficially spins General Order 7, as some sort of unstoppable contagion instead of the possibility of absolute corruption that it really is. It is the closest to a panic reaction the Federation ever displays in TOS.
A sidenote though is that it does not leave any room at all for the clumsy Discovery coverup since it is stated to be silence or death and the ONLY death penalty on the books is General Order 7. It is another example of lack of research on the part of the DSC writers, and while the amount of lore across all of the Treks is huge they should at minimum be familiar with the closest series on the timeline, especially with such a narrow gap in time between them.
"Descent (Part 1)" is essentially a cold war maneuver against a known hostile military force, not civilians (essentially the whole collective is one big war machine). And even then it is iffy enough to trigger Picard into a sort of passive resistance mode until they come up with another idea.
In fact "Whom Gods Destroy" (TOS s3e16) contains the following dialog that points out the Federation does not do massacres lightly:
chakoteya.net/StarTrek/71.htm
And even executions are not something that a crew will go along with (from "Turnabout Intruder" (TOS s3e24)):
chakoteya.net/StarTrek/79.htm
PIC (and DSC) are sloppily written when it comes to edge cases like that, though to be fair that is steadily becoming the standard for shows today as they shift focus away from scripting and to the eye candy and SFX gags instead.
The Federation doesn't care why the Synth rebelled. Just ban all synths and sweep it under the rug instead of trying to figure out whether the synths intentionally rebelled or were compromised. Whoever is in charge of the Federation and Starfleet are extremely incompetent or corrupt for not trying to figure out why the synths rebelled.
I'm sure the federation did an offical investigation, but as head of starfleet security Oh would have been in charge of the investigation, and would have likely ensured the findings enchouraged a research ban
Yes but it is every officer's duty to question their orders if they think something is fishy about them. Orders instructing a captain to murder a woman and a child for no apparent reason, who are no apparent threat should have every Starfleet captain's spidey sense going off.
By contrasts, your examples show us something different. Scotty knows his captain and others are being held hostage in one example. And Kirk has to contend with the obvious threat of dangerous parasites in the other example. Picard knew how dangerous the Borg were and instead treated them like any other civilization that just needed a nudge to change rather than the existential threat they were, and its fair to say he regrets that decision when First Contact comes around.
Yes, Starfleet at large doesn't know the Romulans did it. They don't know anyone did it. They know only that some androids went haywire and now they are banned. They don't have a reason to murder other Non-Federation androids if they even knew they were androids.
No one does an investigation or it gets squashed/kept secret, but no one in the entire Federation thinks that's BS and questions it, pushes for a real investigation? That is obvious corruption there.
No, this is the first time non-sentient androids went rogue. Lore and Data were deliberately created to be capable of independent thought, but everything we saw of the Mars androids is that they are just advanced toasters, which is a serious problem with this plot.
If I'm not mistaken, the Captain DID question it and was told if he disobeyed, the ship would be destroyed with all hands. <-- And that's EXEACTLY like the Talos IV situation from TOS S1 - "The Menagerie" that I quoted:
So, yes, the order was given, Captain Vandermir questioned why, and was told if he didn't carry it out his entire ship and crew along withe the two 'Ambassadors' would be destroyed. So, yeah, sorry, Star Fleet in STP isn't any different back then than it is now in STP - there are orders given and the reason is: "Because we believe it's something so dangerous, we can't allow further contact, or word of said contact to get out."
And yes, obviously it weighed heavily enough on Captain Vandermir that, in the end (and Rios feels maybe he too did something by pressing the Captain on the fact Vandermir carried out the directive); the Captain committed suicide. That said, I believe there are many Captains who wouldn't have a problem at all, and would carry out the order. Examples include TNG era Captain Edward Jellico; and Admiral Pressman (if a situation occurred back when he was a Captain - and hell, Ensign Riker may still have gone along with it at the time too.
But in the end, Star Fleet as depicted in STP is really no different than Star Fleet as depicted in TOS or during the TNG era. Directives like this have always existed, been questioned, and ultimately been carried out, one way or another.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Omega's a big deal actually. A Federation research station was destroyed in an Omega blast and the Federation lied to the ENTIRE GALAXY about why that region of space is messed up.
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
I disagree that Talos 4 is remotely the same as murdering innocents. One is prohibition on taking an action vs. being demanded to take an action.
We also have zero accountability here, no satisfying outcome to the moral quandry, unlike say the Pegasus incident where court martials take place. The audience is aware of the problems with the Federation having that cloak, and Starfleet ultimately does the moral thing, and deals with bad apples like Pressman.
either you are a damn lucky guesser or you saw today's episode early, because that's exactly what they implied in act two
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Actually that is just the most likely progression of the plot, they seem to be going right down the list of old sci-fi standards.
What a thrill ride this series has been, the finale of season 1 is sure to be a treat. It's been a rocky road of ups and downs but personally I feel this is the best Trek we've had since 2001. I do like ENT and DSC but they dont match the TNG, VOY and especially DS9 quality for me. PIC does.
It helps that I love all things Romulan so that final shot with Oh in her fabulous outfit that needs ti make it in game was just bliss for me.
> (Quote)
>
> either you are a damn lucky guesser or you saw today's episode early, because that's exactly what they implied in act two
I smiled when I saw that. I better go play the numbers.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.