Updating Seven of Nine

commodoreobvious · February 2020

**SPOILERS FOR PICARD EP. 5**

When is STO planning on updating characters and story points to reflect the changes from Picard? Like Seven's appearance and interactions in Delta Rising, Hugh in the Delta quadrant, or Icheb's ghost giving out missions of K-7. I'm guessing after the season is over, but I'm interested to hear something official.

Sidenote, freecloud seems like a cool social zone to have, no doubt with hologram pop-ups offering zen sales and starship bundles

leemwatson · February 2020

Until you hear something official, we can only guess.

evilmark444 · February 2020

I didn't see it myself, but i think someone mentioned that Kael said in a livestream that they wanted to have both versions of the character in game for people to interact with, so they decided not to update her Delta Rising appearance and dialog.

joshmaul · February 2020

I honestly hope not. STO already has its own post-Voyager, post-Nemesis timeline, set up back when the idea of a Picard series, or any series at all, did not seem likely; hell, they had to change things around during the development due to the release of the first of the Abramsverse movies, to include the aftermath of the supernova that wiped out Romulus. And most of the material associated with the events in the prime universe prior to the supernova made sense. Picard throws a wrench into the works.

commodoreobvious · February 2020

joshmaul wrote: »

Picard throws a wrench into the works.

I disagree. I think that Seven can be brought in line with a visual update and some dialogue tweaks, Icheb and Hugh were never vital parts of the STO story, so they can be replaced and a more in-line characterization can be brought in for Hugh later if they want. The advantage of being a video game is that these things can be edited after the fact, but saying STO is a continuation of Prime timeline but also ignoring the effects of that timeline are at odd with one-another.

tymersto · February 2020

Now I can agree with replacing most of Seven's appearances in the Delta Quadrant material with her Picard looks. About the only mission where it wouldn't really work is in "Mindscape", since you're dealing with "Voyager Seven" for lack of a better description.

And maybe a bit more snark when it comes to the realization that it is ultimately on her for the state of things in the Delta Quadrant might not be a bad thing...

rattler2 · February 2020

commodoreobvious wrote: »

I disagree. I think that Seven can be brought in line with a visual update and some dialogue tweaks, Icheb and Hugh were never vital parts of the STO story, so they can be replaced and a more in-line characterization can be brought in for Hugh later if they want. The advantage of being a video game is that these things can be edited after the fact, but saying STO is a continuation of Prime timeline but also ignoring the effects of that timeline are at odd with one-another.

I think Icheb in game only really gave PvP missions. Never actually took part in the story.

Also note that the Devs have said that if Picard and STO can't mesh well, STO will continue on as its own timeline. If things are so divergent that you'd basically have to rebuild the entire game from the ground up to fit story elements from Picard into it... its too much work and might as well make a new game. But that won't stop some Picard content from being integrated.

So far it's looking like there isn't anything that knocks the legs out from STO. Seven's appearance and personality isn't really a huge issue, Icheb was never a part of the game's story... the rest right now is wait and see.

neoakiraii · February 2020

All we need from Picard are: Ships, uniforms, weapons, swords, hairstyles, they don't need to redo the story of the game.

If they want to make Post Delta Rising Seven a Ranger who helps protect the delta quadrant to make amends for releasing the Vaadwaur on the Delta Quadrant and she gets a personality and her Picard look that would be a cool story to expand the game but I see no point in changing her in Delta rising. By the end of Delta Rising she feels guilty about what she has done, so i can see her becoming a Ranger helping people and even the Cooperative freeing borg, and helping newly free Borg make a new life and Cryptic wouldn't need to change the first story and ties it in with new Seven from Picard without having to change the game we get the best of both words...pun intended

starkaos · February 2020

Hopefully never. The longer Picard goes on, the more difficult it will be to make STO fit with Picard's canon. Even if Picard doesn't do too much damage to STO, there are a bunch more Star Trek series coming that will make it impossible for STO to conform to. Might actually be interesting if STO gives Icheb more of a story than dying as a Starfleet Officer with his Borg implants being ripped out or standing in the same spot for 10 years.

ltminns · February 2020

Problem with Seven is, it's all reversed. Delta Rising comes 10 years after Picard. For her, she was a Ranger before her feeling guilty about the Vaadwuar in Delta Rising.

Now, if you want to bring Daniels in to fix that conundrum...

starkaos · February 2020

I think neoakiraii is talking about Seven becoming a ranger after Delta Rising in the Star Trek Online timeline instead of about 10 years before in the Prime Timeline. The Fenris Rangers are already mentioned at the end of The Measure of Morality Part 2 mission. "I can also speak to some Fenris Rangers about looking into the Orion smuggling activity in Traelus."

Unknown · February 2020

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rattler2 · February 2020

While that is true... she's still wearing her Voyager era outfit and has her Voyager era personality, then switches back to the Picard era appearance and personality.

nrobbiec · February 2020

somtaawkhar wrote: »

What people seem to forget is that the Path to 2409 states Seven left starfleet years before STO begins, because she disagreed with Starfleet shutting down the anti-Borg taskforce. she only came back in Delta Rising due to Tuvok's request, and it was a special, temporary, reinstatement.

The Path to 2409 says she went to work with the Daystrom Institute to continue her anti-Borg tech research, but they can just retcon that to working with the Fenris Rangers instead. It wouldn't change anything about her leaving or being temporarily reinstated for Delta Rising.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the Path to 2409 (it may have been Needs of the Many) say that Tuvok and Ezri were since retired. So pre-launch and non-mission background information has long been retconned and disregarded.

legendarylycan · February 2020

yes, and so was bashir - he even specifically said he was retired, but he came back to help with the hur'q war

someone being retired doesn't mean they can NEVER return to - or be forced back into - service

spiritborn · February 2020

shadowfang240 wrote: »

yes, and so was bashir - he even specifically said he was retired, but he came back to help with the hur'q war

someone being retired doesn't mean they can NEVER return to - or be forced back into - service

In fact we have precident of someone who actually never wanted to return being forced back into service, Bones in TMP had his commision reactivated even though based on the dialogue he had no intention of returning willingly.

Based on the lines from TMP retired Starfleet personal are moved into the reserve and as long it was honorble discharge they can be reactivated in the future should Starfleet command think that is needed.

artan42 · February 2020

spiritborn wrote: »

shadowfang240 wrote: »

yes, and so was bashir - he even specifically said he was retired, but he came back to help with the hur'q war

someone being retired doesn't mean they can NEVER return to - or be forced back into - service

In fact we have precident of someone who actually never wanted to return being forced back into service, Bones in TMP had his commision reactivated even though based on the dialogue he had no intention of returning willingly.

Based on the lines from TMP retired Starfleet personal are moved into the reserve and as long it was honorble discharge they can be reactivated in the future should Starfleet command think that is needed.

TMP had a lot of stupid stuff about Starfleet that never shows up again like Kirk having to demote himself and then Decker in order to take command of the ship even though admirals captain ships in Starfleet and it's possible to have as many captains on a ship as you can fit.

rattler2 · February 2020

I mean we had Spock, Scotty, AND Kirk as Captains aboard the Enterpise-A... right?

artan42 · February 2020

rattler2 wrote: »

I mean we had Spock, Scotty, AND Kirk as Captains aboard the Enterpise-A... right?

Yeah that's the example I'm thinking of. The E was also filled with commanders.
I can't remember if Saru was ranked as captain in series 2 of DSC but if he was then there was 2 on Discovery.

spiritborn · February 2020

artan42 wrote: »

spiritborn wrote: »

shadowfang240 wrote: »

yes, and so was bashir - he even specifically said he was retired, but he came back to help with the hur'q war

someone being retired doesn't mean they can NEVER return to - or be forced back into - service

In fact we have precident of someone who actually never wanted to return being forced back into service, Bones in TMP had his commision reactivated even though based on the dialogue he had no intention of returning willingly.

Based on the lines from TMP retired Starfleet personal are moved into the reserve and as long it was honorble discharge they can be reactivated in the future should Starfleet command think that is needed.

TMP had a lot of stupid stuff about Starfleet that never shows up again like Kirk having to demote himself and then Decker in order to take command of the ship even though admirals captain ships in Starfleet and it's possible to have as many captains on a ship as you can fit.

True but we have also Wolf leaving Starfleet to join the KDF during the klingon civil war in TNG and later returning to Starfleet. So it would seem that retiring from a Starfleet officer commision isn't final "you can never come back" situation but rather similar to how it's in real life where you're essentially moved to reserve.

Granted I can't think of any profession where retiring would be irreservebly final (well at least not any profession at isn't some form of criminal), even if most people won't get or even want to be rehired.

rattler2 · February 2020

artan42 wrote: »

Yeah that's the example I'm thinking of. The E was also filled with commanders.
I can't remember if Saru was ranked as captain in series 2 of DSC but if he was then there was 2 on Discovery.

Saru was only Acting Captain until Pike took command using Starfleet Regulations, still holding the official rank of Commander. Only difference between him and Burnham I believe was department and actual assignment. Other than that I THINK they're the same rank.

Also the Enterprise-D and E had at least three full Commanders. Riker, Troi, and Crusher.

artan42 · February 2020

spiritborn wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

spiritborn wrote: »

shadowfang240 wrote: »

yes, and so was bashir - he even specifically said he was retired, but he came back to help with the hur'q war

someone being retired doesn't mean they can NEVER return to - or be forced back into - service

In fact we have precident of someone who actually never wanted to return being forced back into service, Bones in TMP had his commision reactivated even though based on the dialogue he had no intention of returning willingly.

Based on the lines from TMP retired Starfleet personal are moved into the reserve and as long it was honorble discharge they can be reactivated in the future should Starfleet command think that is needed.

TMP had a lot of stupid stuff about Starfleet that never shows up again like Kirk having to demote himself and then Decker in order to take command of the ship even though admirals captain ships in Starfleet and it's possible to have as many captains on a ship as you can fit.

True but we have also Wolf leaving Starfleet to join the KDF during the klingon civil war in TNG and later returning to Starfleet. So it would seem that retiring from a Starfleet officer commision isn't final "you can never come back" situation but rather similar to how it's in real life where you're essentially moved to reserve.

Granted I can't think of any profession where retiring would be irreservebly final (well at least not any profession at isn't some form of criminal), even if most people won't get or even want to be rehired.

They're not really the same situation. Worf quit but if he reapplied he'd still have all his previous experience on his CV meaning he'd just walk back into his old job. McCoy claimed to have quit but it's more likely he was just actually on reserve as ne never attempts to leave again (he's an Admiral by TNG) nor even mentions it again.

Starfleet as a whole doesn't really care what their members do once they've found their niche. Riker was the only person I can think of who was said to be hurting their career by staying on the Enterprise. Worf just wandering back into his old job and rank is right up their with how Starfleet works. Pressganging an apparently retired McCoy doesn't fit their ethos.
I've not seen TMP for years (and can happily go the rest of my life not seeing it again) but either McCoy's claim of pressganging can be written off as his usual sarcasm or it's another example of TMP being even worse than TOS with concepts that just plain don't fit how Star Trek works.

artan42 · February 2020

rattler2 wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

Yeah that's the example I'm thinking of. The E was also filled with commanders.
I can't remember if Saru was ranked as captain in series 2 of DSC but if he was then there was 2 on Discovery.

Saru was only Acting Captain until Pike took command using Starfleet Regulations, still holding the official rank of Commander. Only difference between him and Burnham I believe was department and actual assignment. Other than that I THINK they're the same rank.

Also the Enterprise-D and E had at least three full Commanders. Riker, Troi, and Crusher.

It's annoying how sublieutenants, lieutenants, and lieutenant commanders are all referred to as lieutenants and lieutenant commanders and commanders are referred to as commanders. Primarily because it's next to impossible to tell their pips apart onscreen. (And yes I know it's real life convention for those ranks, it's just annoying from a narrative point of view).

With admirals there's really only three starred ones anyway so they're harder to get mixed up, plus the borders help their rank pips stand out more.

Edit: There's also vice admirals referred to as fleet admirals because they're the commanding officer of a fleet but not to be confused with fleet admirals and fleet admirals referred to as commanders because they're in the position of Commander Starfleet. Oh, and the position of vice admiral rather than the rank vice admiral working under a commodore.

lordgyor · February 2020

> @evilmark444 said:
> I didn't see it myself, but i think someone mentioned that Kael said in a livestream that they wanted to have both versions of the character in game for people to interact with, so they decided not to update her Delta Rising appearance and dialog.

Good.

spiritborn · February 2020

artan42 wrote: »

rattler2 wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

Yeah that's the example I'm thinking of. The E was also filled with commanders.
I can't remember if Saru was ranked as captain in series 2 of DSC but if he was then there was 2 on Discovery.

Saru was only Acting Captain until Pike took command using Starfleet Regulations, still holding the official rank of Commander. Only difference between him and Burnham I believe was department and actual assignment. Other than that I THINK they're the same rank.

Also the Enterprise-D and E had at least three full Commanders. Riker, Troi, and Crusher.

It's annoying how 2nd lieutenants, lieutenants, and lieutenant commanders are all referred to as lieutenants and lieutenant commanders and commanders are referred to as commanders. Primarily because it's next to impossible to tell their pips apart onscreen. (And yes I know it's real life convention for those ranks, it's just annoying from a narrative point of view).

With admirals there's really only three starred ones anyway so they're harder to get mixed up, plus the borders help their rank pips stand out more.

I dunno if you're in the military (or have been) but at least for me ranks became rather easy to tract when you had to do (I served 11 month in the Finnish Defense Force costal forces during my compulsory service) and it's rather simple for me to transfer that to Star Trek (at least for the federation as the rank system is quite logical).

Also I'm pretty sure Lt. Commanders are always addressed as "commander" never as Lieutenants in real life and the few times it's done in Trek it's been an error and not intentional.

lianthelia · February 2020

rattler2 wrote: »

I mean we had Spock, Scotty, AND Kirk as Captains aboard the Enterpise-A... right?

Well Scotty held the rank of captain of engineering...something we never really saw except in the TMP movies.

artan42 · February 2020

spiritborn wrote: »

I dunno if you're in the military (or have been) but at least for me ranks became rather easy to tract when you had to do (I served 11 month in the Finnish Defense Force costal forces during my compulsory service) and it's rather simple for me to transfer that to Star Trek (at least for the federation as the rank system is quite logical).

A quick look at the comparative ranks section on Wikipedia shows pretty much every military listed has different arrangements of officer pips as well as different symbols and placements which make it easier to spot which officer rank is which.
Same with ranked civilian organisations (of which Starfleet is one) like the police.

In Starfleet only the Kelvin, DSC Enterprise, KT, TOS, TMP, and TOS film era uniforms had ranks that could be told apart at a distance as they were sleeve stripes (or completely different symbols per rank as with the TWoK uniforms).
The TOS pilot uniforms only had two ranks anyway (officer and captain). The Franklin uniforms didn't have any ranks at all.

Every other uniform had near invisible pips on the collar, chest, or badge with ranks like Lt CMDR and CMDR impossible to tell apart if the lighting wasn't so good because a gold pip in shadow looks the same as a black pip.

spiritborn wrote: »

Also I'm pretty sure Lt. Commanders are always addressed as "commander" never as Lieutenants in real life and the few times it's done in Trek it's been an error and not intentional.

It happens that often that it's probably intentional, i.e. the writers don't know how you abbreviate a rank. They're also the reason we got ensign pipped Petty Officer O'Brien addressed as lieutenant repeatedly.

lianthelia wrote: »

rattler2 wrote: »

I mean we had Spock, Scotty, AND Kirk as Captains aboard the Enterpise-A... right?

Well Scotty held the rank of captain of engineering...something we never really saw except in the TMP movies.

Scotty held the position of Captain of Engineering, he had the rank of captain. His rank pip is the same as Spock and Kirk's.

captainbrian11 · February 2020

given how TV works and the angles we get, collar pips are likely EASIER to tell then sleeve pips (because we're more often looking at the heads of characters then we are their sleeves

artan42 · February 2020

captainbrian11 wrote: »

given how TV works and the angles we get, collar pips are likely EASIER to tell then sleeve pips (because we're more often looking at the heads of characters then we are their sleeves

Except it's not easier, if it were I wouldn't have needed to point out that it's not easier. I'm not basing it on theoretical concepts, I'm basing it on not being able to tell whilst watching the show.

angrytarg · February 2020

I'd wish we got sleeve ranks back. Those are way more fly.

khan5000 · February 2020

Sleeve rank is easier to see than collar pips.
I wish Trek would move back to rank symbols like in the WOK uniforms

Updating Seven of Nine

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