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[STAR TREK DiSCOVERY] | SEASON TWO |

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    angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    This is a dumb belief by its very nature. It would be like saying that if we got TNG first, we should have never gotten TOS because it was a "prequel"

    Having stories that fill in the various gaps in the timeline isn't dumb, its actually quite good because it actually fleshes out the universe rather then continue star trek's march toward widening an ever wider ocean, while doing little to add depth to it.

    This makes absolutely no sense, since we did not get TNG before TOS.

    If you like the pseudo-depth applied by prequels fine, more power to you. But they're still dumb, unless they actually respect the material they are meant to "predate" and not just cash in on name dropping pig-2.gif​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
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    theboxisredtheboxisred Member Posts: 458 Arc User
    There is quite a difference between the unintentional breaking of continuity, altering the continuity to make something fit later, and raising a Viagra-laced middle finger to that which came before.
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    artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    There is quite a difference between the unintentional breaking of continuity, altering the continuity to make something fit later, and raising a Viagra-laced middle finger to that which came before.

    Like every other show, including TOS has done to TOS then.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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    angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    > @artan42 said:
    > Like every other show, including TOS has done to TOS then.​​

    But that's not relevant. Nobody claims it never happeneded before. It's still poor to change prior events just because they're unable to incorporate them into the story. It's poor when any show does it, I don't give DSC a pass because it happened before (you know my hate tirades about FC or ENT 😂).

    If they want to tell X but that doesn't work because the creative minds prior did Y they shouldn't just change it to Z. They either make it YX or choose another point in time. I loathe retcons pretty much all the time.
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
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    mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    The only "big" retcon I see in Discovery seems to be the visuals, however, and I am fine with that. I was also fine with DS9 reusing TOS footage or recreating TOS sets or whatever they did exactly.

    Everything else does not really seem to violate anything we knew about the story of the universe and its people. It just extends it. It might not always be things we expected, and it might not always fit fanon, but that's fine with me.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
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    artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    angrytarg wrote: »
    > @artan42 said:
    > Like every other show, including TOS has done to TOS then.​​

    But that's not relevant. Nobody claims it never happeneded before. It's still poor to change prior events just because they're unable to incorporate them into the story. It's poor when any show does it, I don't give DSC a pass because it happened before (you know my hate tirades about FC or ENT 😂).

    If they want to tell X but that doesn't work because the creative minds prior did Y they shouldn't just change it to Z. They either make it YX or choose another point in time. I loathe retcons pretty much all the time.

    If you can fix something go for it. DSC has done nothing but improve the universe around the period of TOS. The visuals update the era to actually fit between ENT and TMP and the technical allows for a more realistic future to us today than the TOS future to the 60s.
    Oh, except the stupid melty ears on the Klingons, that's inexcusable.

    I can't think of any retcon in Trek that didn't improve things.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
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    angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    edited February 2019
    DSC might not violate anything specifically, but it's expansion feels very unnecessary. The whole Spock schebang is not something that was missing, but it's hand-holding to piggyback on TOS instead just itself. The spore drive is unnecessary since it won't exist later on - so why put it in a prequel story?

    The visuals are not an issue for me personally. I dislike most but not all of their artistic choices and personally would have applauded a greater respect for the old sets (again, if you can't then don't make a prequel, just make a sequel) but I know that not everythimg production based has actual in-universe ramifications, to me Klingons still look like in TNG for instance. The culture DSC chooses for them however is very much not how my headcanon went and thus I disapprove.
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
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    angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    To be fair, they're showing us exactly why the spore drive "didn't exist" later on. It appears (from the preview) that S2 Ep5 will focus on the impact of Discovery's spore-drive use and very likely show us that there is a VERY good reason that the drive was confined to history, probably classified, and never spoken of again.

    As for Klingon culture.... sorry, this might be an unpopular opinion but I'm enjoying seeing them do something other than constantly bellow about 'honor' and 'battle'. TNG onward Klingons were, for the most part (emphasis, I am NOT saying they were always potrayed that way) a prime example of 'planet of hats'.

    I know the developments, but in the end it's a "dream episode". We had instantaneous travel over all dimensions and now we don't - why come up with this story in the first place? Prequel stories are doomed to be 'insignificant' in one way or the other since of course nothing DSC shows us did exist in TOS and thus none of the characters kept anything classified or lied, they didn't know of it because it wasn't written back then (same with S31, there is no S31 in TOS because it didn't exist IRL - that's my problem with retcons, they never feel right). If you prequel you have to limit yourself to things that make sense, otherwise you go the "everything is classified" route, which is synonymous with "It was a dream" and thus insignificant.​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
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    ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 36,106 Arc User
    Kobayashi Maru
    > @patrickngo said:
    > artan42 wrote: »
    >
    > angrytarg wrote: »
    >
    > > @artan42 said:
    > > Like every other show, including TOS has done to TOS then.​​
    >
    > But that's not relevant. Nobody claims it never happeneded before. It's still poor to change prior events just because they're unable to incorporate them into the story. It's poor when any show does it, I don't give DSC a pass because it happened before (you know my hate tirades about FC or ENT 😂).
    >
    > If they want to tell X but that doesn't work because the creative minds prior did Y they shouldn't just change it to Z. They either make it YX or choose another point in time. I loathe retcons pretty much all the time.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > If you can fix something go for it. DSC has done nothing but improve the universe around the period of TOS. The visuals update the era to actually fit between ENT and TMP and the technical allows for a more realistic future to us today than the TOS future to the 60s.
    > Oh, except the stupid melty ears on the Klingons, that's inexcusable.
    >
    > I can't think of any retcon in Trek that didn't improve things.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > but then, gotta ask: how much did you like it in the first place?

    Can we please NOT get into the whole "true fan" rubbish? 'Cos that's where this argument always leads.
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    angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    Hardly only applies to prequels though, does it? I mean, by that logic the fact that nothing more was ever done with the parasites seen in TNG 'Conspiracy' falls under the "why come up with this story in the first place" too since neither TNG, DS9 nor Voyager ever explored them further. No free pass just because it wasn't a prequel. It's a storyline that they never followed through with (and I know the reasons but that doesn't change the fact that they dumped the idea makes the episode "insignificant".

    And if we're focusing on prequels...... Enterprise suffers from this too. The Borg. The Ferengi. Both seen in Enterprise but since they convieniently forgot to identify themselves they fall into the "thus insignificant" catergory too.

    Yes, indeed. I agree
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
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    starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    angrytarg wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    To be fair, they're showing us exactly why the spore drive "didn't exist" later on. It appears (from the preview) that S2 Ep5 will focus on the impact of Discovery's spore-drive use and very likely show us that there is a VERY good reason that the drive was confined to history, probably classified, and never spoken of again.

    As for Klingon culture.... sorry, this might be an unpopular opinion but I'm enjoying seeing them do something other than constantly bellow about 'honor' and 'battle'. TNG onward Klingons were, for the most part (emphasis, I am NOT saying they were always potrayed that way) a prime example of 'planet of hats'.

    I know the developments, but in the end it's a "dream episode". We had instantaneous travel over all dimensions and now we don't - why come up with this story in the first place? Prequel stories are doomed to be 'insignificant' in one way or the other since of course nothing DSC shows us did exist in TOS and thus none of the characters kept anything classified or lied, they didn't know of it because it wasn't written back then (same with S31, there is no S31 in TOS because it didn't exist IRL - that's my problem with retcons, they never feel right). If you prequel you have to limit yourself to things that make sense, otherwise you go the "everything is classified" route, which is synonymous with "It was a dream" and thus insignificant.​​

    Hardly only applies to prequels though, does it? I mean, by that logic the fact that nothing more was ever done with the parasites seen in TNG 'Conspiracy' falls under the "why come up with this story in the first place" too since neither TNG, DS9 nor Voyager ever explored them further. No free pass just because it wasn't a prequel. It's a storyline that they never followed through with (and I know the reasons but that doesn't change the fact that they dumped the idea makes the episode "insignificant".

    And if we're focusing on prequels...... Enterprise suffers from this too. The Borg. The Ferengi. Both seen in Enterprise but since they convieniently forgot to identify themselves they fall into the "thus insignificant" catergory too.

    Apparently the parasites were supposed to be the first wave of the Borg with the Borg having an insectoid appearance instead of the cybernetic appearance we know and love. The insectoid look was replaced by the cybernetic look due to budget constraints.

    There is a few novels that deal with them. The parasites are Trill Symbiotes that were genetically modified due to trying to find a cure to stop a deadly plague that affected symbiotes. Then there is the STO explanation that they are Iconian agents used to infect the Vaadwaur.
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    markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    Apparently the parasites were supposed to be the first wave of the Borg with the Borg having an insectoid appearance instead of the cybernetic appearance we know and love. The insectoid look was replaced by the cybernetic look due to budget constraints.

    There is a few novels that deal with them. The parasites are Trill Symbiotes that were genetically modified due to trying to find a cure to stop a deadly plague that affected symbiotes. Then there is the STO explanation that they are Iconian agents used to infect the Vaadwaur.
    Well, the original idea was kinda like halfway between the Goa'uld from Stargate and the bugs from Starship Troopers. It's why that incident with the missing colonies doesn't match later Borg behavior. Connecting the Borg was a retcon. It was actually the Parasites in the episode as written.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
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    markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    is there ANY actual evidence at all that it's true?
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
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    thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
    I wanted to share a couple of Disco-related fan explanations I have read recently that I like:

    1) Disco-tech: the issue of newer shows looking more advanced than older shows is nothing new and we all know the real life explanation. But for those that enjoy having an in universe explanation someone suggested something similar to what happened in the show Battlestar Galactica. Humans were faced with an enemy that could take over their advanced computers, so they had to downgrade to older/more simplistic tech to defeat them. If the galactic powers in Trek had to fight an enemy that could take over the tech on their ships, it could theoretically cause them to revert to a less vulnerable type of tech going from DSC to TOS eras.

    2) Klingon appearance: Enterprise already decided to explain away the TOS klingons with the augment virus. So one theory I liked was that to "cure" the effects of the virus and bring back the natural ridged look, the klingons began their own genetic engineering and went a bit too far/overcompensated, resulting in the more "animalistic" look we see in discovery.

    Neither of these are "perfect" explanations, but I like the general idea of both of them and wouldn't mind seeing something like these explored in novels.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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    mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    To be fair, they're showing us exactly why the spore drive "didn't exist" later on. It appears (from the preview) that S2 Ep5 will focus on the impact of Discovery's spore-drive use and very likely show us that there is a VERY good reason that the drive was confined to history, probably classified, and never spoken of again.

    As for Klingon culture.... sorry, this might be an unpopular opinion but I'm enjoying seeing them do something other than constantly bellow about 'honor' and 'battle'. TNG onward Klingons were, for the most part (emphasis, I am NOT saying they were always potrayed that way) a prime example of 'planet of hats'.

    I know the developments, but in the end it's a "dream episode". We had instantaneous travel over all dimensions and now we don't - why come up with this story in the first place? Prequel stories are doomed to be 'insignificant' in one way or the other since of course nothing DSC shows us did exist in TOS and thus none of the characters kept anything classified or lied, they didn't know of it because it wasn't written back then (same with S31, there is no S31 in TOS because it didn't exist IRL - that's my problem with retcons, they never feel right). If you prequel you have to limit yourself to things that make sense, otherwise you go the "everything is classified" route, which is synonymous with "It was a dream" and thus insignificant.​​
    That is not what makes a dream episode.

    Is the time-displaced Wormhole to Romulan space a dream episode because it didn't pan out? Did we not learn something about the characters, did we not learn about a Romulan Commander and his unique relationship he formed with the Voyager?

    Just because Marritza was murdered in the end, did we not learn something new about the Cardassian Occupation and the diverse Cardassian mindsets involved in it, did Kira not grow as a person from the experience?

    The Spore Drive is a vehicle to tell a story, how it affects the people and the world around it. The Spore Drive might go away, but it still left something behind - people altered by its use, by the knowledge they gained.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
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    jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,396 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    angrytarg wrote: »
    DSC might not violate anything specifically, but it's expansion feels very unnecessary. The whole Spock schebang is not something that was missing, but it's hand-holding to piggyback on TOS instead just itself. The spore drive is unnecessary since it won't exist later on - so why put it in a prequel story?

    The visuals are not an issue for me personally. I dislike most but not all of their artistic choices and personally would have applauded a greater respect for the old sets (again, if you can't then don't make a prequel, just make a sequel) but I know that not everythimg production based has actual in-universe ramifications, to me Klingons still look like in TNG for instance. The culture DSC chooses for them however is very much not how my headcanon went and thus I disapprove.

    To be fair, they're showing us exactly why the spore drive "didn't exist" later on. It appears (from the preview) that S2 Ep5 will focus on the impact of Discovery's spore-drive use and very likely show us that there is a VERY good reason that the drive was confined to history, probably classified, and never spoken of again.

    As for Klingon culture.... sorry, this might be an unpopular opinion but I'm enjoying seeing them do something other than constantly bellow about 'honor' and 'battle'. TNG onward Klingons were, for the most part (emphasis, I am NOT saying they were always potrayed that way) a prime example of 'planet of hats'.

    "Culture"?? sure, they stopped "Bellowing" and instead, they just murder for the sake of murdering without even that amount of depth. (basically removed everything but the negative stereotypes to make them even MORE two dim-wait, to make them ONE dimensional baddies, each and every one. without exception.) Then adding an incredibly lame excuse for putting the latex hair on the rubber masks? This is your idea of it NOT being planet of hats?

    (Faked valley accent) "What-EVAR.."
    Yes, they turned them into TOS Klingons with rrrrrridges. I'm sorry, Patrick, but the whole "space biker Vikings bellowing endlessly about honor" is the retcon. They never acted like that in the original series - the closest was in "Day of the Dove", when Kang came to the pragmatic realization that the only way to get his ship out of the situation they were in was to cooperate with Kirk. Briefly. (Even that required the citing of a Klingon proverb - "Only a fool fights in a burning house.")
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
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    luminaire#0745 luminaire Member Posts: 77 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    Exactly. Prequels are dumb, by their very nature
    This is a dumb belief by its very nature. It would be like saying that if we got TNG first, we should have never gotten TOS because it was a "prequel"

    Having stories that fill in the various gaps in the timeline isn't dumb, its actually quite good because it actually fleshes out the universe rather then continue star trek's march toward widening an ever wider ocean, while doing little to add depth to it.

    Going to the past rather than the future doesn't automagically add depth, especially when what you're adding is completely nonsensical and has no coherent relationship to anything that comes after. Doubly problematic when you set it immediately before another series, and involve characters from that series...who will all apparently make a death pact to never under any circumstances breathe a word about any of the world shaking events or people of the last few years.

    And yes, that is the problem with prequels. The audience all ready knows the 'future', and Discovery does absolutely nothing to 'flesh out' that future.
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    starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    Exactly. Prequels are dumb, by their very nature
    This is a dumb belief by its very nature. It would be like saying that if we got TNG first, we should have never gotten TOS because it was a "prequel"

    Having stories that fill in the various gaps in the timeline isn't dumb, its actually quite good because it actually fleshes out the universe rather then continue star trek's march toward widening an ever wider ocean, while doing little to add depth to it.

    Going to the past rather than the future doesn't automagically add depth, especially when what you're adding is completely nonsensical and has no coherent relationship to anything that comes after. Doubly problematic when you set it immediately before another series, and involve characters from that series...who will all apparently make a death pact to never under any circumstances breathe a word about any of the world shaking events or people of the last few years.

    And yes, that is the problem with prequels. The audience all ready knows the 'future', and Discovery does absolutely nothing to 'flesh out' that future.

    Then there is the problem that there is no reference to any of the events of Discovery in any other Star Trek series. The Battle of Axanar, the Earth-Romulan War, the Eugenics War, and World War III would have been good prequels since they have been mentioned in other Star Trek series. If we ignore the Temporal Cold War in Enterprise, then it was a decent prequel unlike Discovery.

    It seems like the events of Discovery were completely erased since we see the effects of the Earth-Romulan War in the Balance of Terror episode in TOS with Ensign Stiles displaying his hatred towards Romulans from the events of a war that happened 100 years ago and yet there is no hatred towards the Klingons from the Klingon War that happened about 10 years ago. It would be easier for CBS to just say that due to the Temporal Cold War in the 22nd Century, the timeline we are used to was changed. Introducing new content like holographic technology and then explain why TOS doesn't have it is worst than just making it part of the background. The main problem with Discovery is that it doesn't know if it wants to be a prequel or a sequel.
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    rickvic#6033 rickvic Member Posts: 129 Arc User
    Remember my words, the Red Angel is a timetraveling Picard to build a bridge to the new series

    I for one, would happily welcome our new Iconian Rulers, but i think this would be to cool to be in Disco
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    angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    My favourite part about Voqs 'infiltration' is still that he started spouting paroles THE SECOND he realized who he is. He doesn't even wait until he's alone, he immediately announces him being a spy in the midst of people. pig-2.gif​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
This discussion has been closed.